You're definitely too paranoid about Eldrazi. Think of it this way... Name decks that play Emrakul in the maindeck/sideboard...
Krark Klan Ironworks (not all versions play Emrakul as a win condition I believe so you might get lucky)
Jeskai Nahiri (why would you play Nahiri when you can play Jace?)
U/R Breach -> only legit deck i can think of
Sun and Moon -> see comment above about Nahiri and Jace
Blue Moon -> similar to U/R breach
I just don't think you will run into those at a GP and if you do then it's ok to have bad matchups. I think we need some good control cards in the sideboard against the upcoming Jace meta. Repetitive mill sources like Ashiok/Mesmeric Orb. Hell, maybe our best answer is to have Jace in our sideboard so we can grind as much as them.
On another note, from a mill standpoint just looking at all these Jace decks they all just durdle and play reactive cards with the idea of sticking a jace mid/late game and burying you in card advantage. Mill might actually be improved with all the slower Jace decks hating out aggro. Then again if you are just playing FNMs people are going to play whatever decks they already own so it won't change much at that level.
I think Mill will be better positioned with Jace in the meta.
He really doesn't do that much against us, Mesmeric Orb can ruin all the fatesealing and brainstorming, and bouncing creatures against us is just pointless (or impossible if you don't run any).
And as dosequisguy said, he might replace other win conditions that were more annoying for us.
Sadly Jace will probably hurt Lantern, I was pretty happy picturing an uptick in Lantern decks after the PT, haha.
Bloodbraid elf is more dangerous, but not particularly so either.
I haven't played the deck in a while, I will probably test it out again now after all the changes the PT, GP Toronto and these unbannings will bring.
EDIT: So, I played a bunch of matches online (just queues, not even leagues, granted) and I'm loving the Jace hype everywhere! I've beaten UW Miracles with Jace and Augurs 2 times and another Miracle/Counterbalance list running Jace once, Mesmeric Orb is a powerhouse, Echoing truth gets rid of the angel tokens, terminus does nothing, Jace does nothing and is way too slow... loved playing the deck again and went 6-1 in 7 matches, so not too shabby! My only defeat was to Burn, and it was a close one!
I want to check if the Shelldock not being able to play fuse cards bug is fixed before playing leagues, I hate playing a bugged deck and having to file for compensation.
My decklist since I haven't posted here in a while.
With the new data on MTGO as of today they showed a Mill deck that was literally a burn deck 5-0 against a bunch of Jace decks because those are the only decks being played online.
If Lantern is getting hated out that also means Affinity is getting hated out. These Jace decks will be running 3+ Kologhans Command.
Is anyone here a UW control guru? Will Jace replace Gideon of the Trials as a win condition?
With the new data on MTGO as of today they showed a Mill deck that was literally a burn deck 5-0 against a bunch of Jace decks because those are the only decks being played online.
If Lantern is getting hated out that also means Affinity is getting hated out. These Jace decks will be running 3+ Kologhans Command.
Is anyone here a UW control guru? Will Jace replace Gideon of the Trials as a win condition?
You're correct in your assessment of artifact based decks being a bad choice right now. For pure U/W control most of the people I've spoken with about recent testing have been playing 2 Jace, 1-2 Gideon of the Trials, + Snapcaster and Colonnades as their win conditions. Occasionally you see a singleton 1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar + 1 Secure the Wastes as well.
I've tried to diversify my lands to help insulate against the inevitable Boil / Choke hate that the JTMS metagame will likely bring. No longer relying on Ensnaring Bridge as an out - too many K-Commands around. Ashiok, Hero's Downfall, Pithing Needle are all nods to the expected upswing in control/grindy matches where they would excel. Collective Brutality will help in the expected surge of Burn decks
Not really worried about Jace. Mesmeric Orb makes the 0: ability a purely bad play unless you are desperate to find an answer to something I have in play. Only creature I have to put back into my hand is Snap. If you want to return your own creature, I'm fine with that unless it is Reclamation Sage. Anything else, go ahead and tap to replay it. Fateseal is annoying, but not crippling.
That everyone says Affinity and Lantern are now DOA is troubling, because a lot of mill is artifact based with Mesmeric Orb and Ensnaring Bridge. It really has to do with what the answer is. If it is Stony Silence, we're going to laugh. KCommand, Sage, Claim, we're in trouble.
Just as a note, that 5-0 was pre-unbannings, so it didn't play against Jace or Bloodbraid.
Whatever uptick in artifact hate there could've been after Lantern won the PT it will certainly take a back seat to Jace and Bloodbraid elf decks for a while. Also, no Lantern decks in top 32 of GP Toronto toned the "Lantern is broken" song down as well.
Jace has a chance of replacing the Nahiri/Emrakul pack, as well as Gideons of the trials, yes, and it would be wonderful news for mill if that happened! I'm pretty sure the Jace hype will slowly die and he will be just another powerful card in Modern, similar to Liliana of the Veil.
Maybe somebody finds a shell that makes him really broken (UW Miracles so far has been pretty underwhelming), but he is certainly not the "4 of in any deck running blue" that people were panicking about.
I want to check if the Shelldock not being able to play fuse cards bug is fixed before playing leagues, I hate playing a bugged deck and having to file for compensation.
I don't think that's a bug, fuse only works if you cast the card from your hand.
I want to check if the Shelldock not being able to play fuse cards bug is fixed before playing leagues, I hate playing a bugged deck and having to file for compensation.
I don't think that's a bug, fuse only works if you cast the card from your hand.
The bug was/is that you can't cast any half, obvioulsy fusing them won't work, I didn't mean that.
It stopped working a couple of months ago (casting Entering from under shelldock was pretty fun a couple of times, haha), it is an acknowledged bug listed on their site, so they're likely to fix it soon I guess (or maybe they have already, I didn't get the scenario to test it yet).
Here is the stream VOD of the guy who made the 5-0 with the "turbo" mill deck. It is pretty long, I haven't watched it to find the 5-0, it would be interesting to know what decks he faced.
The decklist doesn't look very nice to me, maybe watching the gameplay will show some value I'm missing
Affinity (G1 on the draw, didn't board out traps and board crypt incursion in until game 3)
Grixis Control (absolute slaughter)
B/R Hollow One (this matchup looks very hard)
Shadow Traverse
Living End (11 hate cards out of the sideboard lol)
A subscriber donated the deck and the sideboarding could have been a little tighter but the 4x shelldocks worked very well with Darkness. It's the prior day's stream. Fun games to watch.
Affinity (G1 on the draw, didn't board out traps and board crypt incursion in until game 3)
Grixis Control (absolute slaughter)
B/R Hollow One (this matchup looks very hard)
Shadow Traverse
Living End (11 hate cards out of the sideboard lol)
A subscriber donated the deck and the sideboarding could have been a little tighter but the 4x shelldocks worked very well with Darkness. It's the prior day's stream. Fun games to watch.
Hm... so what are thoughts on Darkness? I haven't really considered it since Ad Nauseum against Infect. It seems like it did work in the video but I'm not sure if I'd want that over Fatal Push or other conventional spot removal.
Mill finishes 32nd at GP Lyon, was at the top tables all day. His decklist is very odd, running both Bridge and Visions. He was the feature match in round 13, I know many here will want to watch it.
He was also on camera at the end of the match in round 9, that one starts at about 45 minutes into the round.
I don't like his deck, but I LOVE his results! Go Dario!
I'm not a fan of the Ensnaring Bridges. I understand that they serve a purpose, but they feel really bad in a lot of matches, and since we have zero way to protect them, a single artifact removal or bounce spell can suddenly turn a game into a loss -- and the format post unbannings should be filled with K-Commands and Cryptics, both of which make Bridge a liability. If anything I think Ensnaring Bridge is sideboard material, and even then my current list does not run them at all since post board I have 3 Crypt Incursion, 3 Fatal Push, 3 Collective Brutality and 2 Damnation to help fight aggro.
The Top 32 list is quite interesting. Deconstructing what I can:
He lost 1-2 in Round 14 to David Juric's Jeskai Control (top 8). My best guess is that mill could not beat through 8 counters with 4 snaps and 1 gearhulk after Search for Azcanta flipped.
Deck construction:
4 Crabs and 4 Scribes. No Snapcasters. Fair enough.
0 Mind Funeral. Instead, it has 4 Glimpse and 4 Brutality.
3 Surgical Extraction.
0 Fraying Sanity.
2 Search for Azcanta. Seems strong with the low curve here, and I wouldn't be surprised if Hedron Crab targeted self once or twice to enable.
3 Ensnaring Bridge.
4 Visions of Beyond. Non-bo with Bridge but it does dig for it. Also, spells are significantly cheaper.
SB:
2 Night of Souls' Betrayal - Strong hate for Bloodghast and green/white decks. Can be lights out against Affinity.
4 Leyline of the Void - Hate for B/R Hollow One, Dredge, Living End.
I definitely like the deck. Overall, it seems like a deck set up to do all of its work by turn 2. It feels like a small-ball deck by walking away from Mind Funeral/Fraying Sanity. It worked mostly for him, especially if Tron and Burn are prevalent. Would this work in a post-bloodbraid/Jace world? Not sure.
The deck is much better positioned against burn because of the 4 Scribes as 0/3 blockers and 2 Brutality.
The deck is excellent against mono-green tron with 3 Surgical and up to 16 ways to mill by turn 2, possibly hitting a tron land for extraction purposes.
As for 5-Color Humans, the lower casting costs mean Bridge can be set up much earlier to lock them out. Perhaps in an aggro meta, the Manic Scribes are good simply because of its 3 toughness?
I noted he only ran 1 Crypt Incursion. He got results with his list, but in a 5 color Humans meta, I'd have run 3. It is not a dead card too often, and when it is, you board it out.
Are you really going to play 2-3 Welding Jars to protect your Ensnaring Bridge which is only useful in like 50-60% of matches, if you draw it, if you resolve it, if you get your hand low enough, and then can protect it if you draw a Jar and play it before they do something about the Bridge? Even as a sideboard option, that's a lot of deck space to devote to something that is only useful in 50-60% of matches anyway
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Krark Klan Ironworks (not all versions play Emrakul as a win condition I believe so you might get lucky)
Jeskai Nahiri (why would you play Nahiri when you can play Jace?)
U/R Breach -> only legit deck i can think of
Sun and Moon -> see comment above about Nahiri and Jace
Blue Moon -> similar to U/R breach
I just don't think you will run into those at a GP and if you do then it's ok to have bad matchups. I think we need some good control cards in the sideboard against the upcoming Jace meta. Repetitive mill sources like Ashiok/Mesmeric Orb. Hell, maybe our best answer is to have Jace in our sideboard so we can grind as much as them.
On another note, from a mill standpoint just looking at all these Jace decks they all just durdle and play reactive cards with the idea of sticking a jace mid/late game and burying you in card advantage. Mill might actually be improved with all the slower Jace decks hating out aggro. Then again if you are just playing FNMs people are going to play whatever decks they already own so it won't change much at that level.
He really doesn't do that much against us, Mesmeric Orb can ruin all the fatesealing and brainstorming, and bouncing creatures against us is just pointless (or impossible if you don't run any).
And as dosequisguy said, he might replace other win conditions that were more annoying for us.
Sadly Jace will probably hurt Lantern, I was pretty happy picturing an uptick in Lantern decks after the PT, haha.
Bloodbraid elf is more dangerous, but not particularly so either.
I haven't played the deck in a while, I will probably test it out again now after all the changes the PT, GP Toronto and these unbannings will bring.
EDIT: So, I played a bunch of matches online (just queues, not even leagues, granted) and I'm loving the Jace hype everywhere! I've beaten UW Miracles with Jace and Augurs 2 times and another Miracle/Counterbalance list running Jace once, Mesmeric Orb is a powerhouse, Echoing truth gets rid of the angel tokens, terminus does nothing, Jace does nothing and is way too slow... loved playing the deck again and went 6-1 in 7 matches, so not too shabby! My only defeat was to Burn, and it was a close one!
I want to check if the Shelldock not being able to play fuse cards bug is fixed before playing leagues, I hate playing a bugged deck and having to file for compensation.
My decklist since I haven't posted here in a while.
If Lantern is getting hated out that also means Affinity is getting hated out. These Jace decks will be running 3+ Kologhans Command.
Is anyone here a UW control guru? Will Jace replace Gideon of the Trials as a win condition?
You're correct in your assessment of artifact based decks being a bad choice right now. For pure U/W control most of the people I've spoken with about recent testing have been playing 2 Jace, 1-2 Gideon of the Trials, + Snapcaster and Colonnades as their win conditions. Occasionally you see a singleton 1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar + 1 Secure the Wastes as well.
I've tried to diversify my lands to help insulate against the inevitable Boil / Choke hate that the JTMS metagame will likely bring. No longer relying on Ensnaring Bridge as an out - too many K-Commands around. Ashiok, Hero's Downfall, Pithing Needle are all nods to the expected upswing in control/grindy matches where they would excel. Collective Brutality will help in the expected surge of Burn decks
2x Darkslick Shores
3x Field of Ruin
1x Flooded Strand
2x Island
1x Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
4x Polluted Delta
2x Shelldock Isle
1x Sunken Hollow
1x Sunken Ruins
3x Swamp
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Watery Grave
4x Archive Trap
3x Crypt Incursion
1x Dismember
3x Fatal Push
3x Surgical Extraction
3x Visions of Beyond
Sorcery (10)
2x Breaking / Entering
2x Damnation
4x Glimpse the Unthinkable
2x Mind Funeral
Enchantment (3)
3x Fraying Sanity
Artifact (4)
4x Mesmeric Orb
4x Hedron Crab
3x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
3x Collective Brutality
1x Damnation
2x Echoing Truth
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Hero's Downfall
2x Pithing Needle
That everyone says Affinity and Lantern are now DOA is troubling, because a lot of mill is artifact based with Mesmeric Orb and Ensnaring Bridge. It really has to do with what the answer is. If it is Stony Silence, we're going to laugh. KCommand, Sage, Claim, we're in trouble.
Whatever uptick in artifact hate there could've been after Lantern won the PT it will certainly take a back seat to Jace and Bloodbraid elf decks for a while. Also, no Lantern decks in top 32 of GP Toronto toned the "Lantern is broken" song down as well.
Jace has a chance of replacing the Nahiri/Emrakul pack, as well as Gideons of the trials, yes, and it would be wonderful news for mill if that happened! I'm pretty sure the Jace hype will slowly die and he will be just another powerful card in Modern, similar to Liliana of the Veil.
Maybe somebody finds a shell that makes him really broken (UW Miracles so far has been pretty underwhelming), but he is certainly not the "4 of in any deck running blue" that people were panicking about.
I don't think that's a bug, fuse only works if you cast the card from your hand.
The bug was/is that you can't cast any half, obvioulsy fusing them won't work, I didn't mean that.
It stopped working a couple of months ago (casting Entering from under shelldock was pretty fun a couple of times, haha), it is an acknowledged bug listed on their site, so they're likely to fix it soon I guess (or maybe they have already, I didn't get the scenario to test it yet).
Here is the stream VOD of the guy who made the 5-0 with the "turbo" mill deck. It is pretty long, I haven't watched it to find the 5-0, it would be interesting to know what decks he faced.
The decklist doesn't look very nice to me, maybe watching the gameplay will show some value I'm missing
Grixis Control (absolute slaughter)
B/R Hollow One (this matchup looks very hard)
Shadow Traverse
Living End (11 hate cards out of the sideboard lol)
A subscriber donated the deck and the sideboarding could have been a little tighter but the 4x shelldocks worked very well with Darkness. It's the prior day's stream. Fun games to watch.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/228269537 is the link for this, starts at 4:31:50
Now that I think about it... I believe this is the Pesistratos build or whatever his name is.
He was also on camera at the end of the match in round 9, that one starts at about 45 minutes into the round.
I don't like his deck, but I LOVE his results! Go Dario!
Current list:
3x Field of Ruin
2x Flooded Strand
3x Island
2x Marsh Flats
1x Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
4x Polluted Delta
2x Shelldock Isle
3x Swamp
2x Watery Grave
Creature (8)
4x Hedron Crab
4x Manic Scribe
2x Crypt Incursion
3x Fatal Push
2x Surgical Extraction
3x Visions of Beyond
Sorcery (9)
2x Collective Brutality
2x Damnation
4x Glimpse the Unthinkable
1x Mind Funeral
Enchantment (3)
3x Fraying Sanity
Artifact (4)
4x Mesmeric Orb
3x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1x Collective Brutality
1x Crypt Incursion
1x Damnation
3x Duress
2x Echoing Truth
1x Set Adrift
2x Spell Pierce
1x Surgical Extraction
Thats his current list
It differs from the list he suggested first (though it was pre Fraying Sanity/Field of Ruin era) https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/developing-competitive-modern/221596-ubx-mill?comment=1690
I think he made a good use of discussions in this thread and perphaps testing to make a good turbo mill build
I think it still has obvious flaws - 2 shocklands, 4 basics as only targets for 10 fetch lands and 4 Fields
and sideboard looking unfinished with only 4 distinct cards
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/939399#paper
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
He lost 1-2 in Round 14 to David Juric's Jeskai Control (top 8). My best guess is that mill could not beat through 8 counters with 4 snaps and 1 gearhulk after Search for Azcanta flipped.
Deck construction:
4 Crabs and 4 Scribes. No Snapcasters. Fair enough.
0 Mind Funeral. Instead, it has 4 Glimpse and 4 Brutality.
3 Surgical Extraction.
0 Fraying Sanity.
2 Search for Azcanta. Seems strong with the low curve here, and I wouldn't be surprised if Hedron Crab targeted self once or twice to enable.
3 Ensnaring Bridge.
4 Visions of Beyond. Non-bo with Bridge but it does dig for it. Also, spells are significantly cheaper.
SB:
2 Night of Souls' Betrayal - Strong hate for Bloodghast and green/white decks. Can be lights out against Affinity.
4 Leyline of the Void - Hate for B/R Hollow One, Dredge, Living End.
I definitely like the deck. Overall, it seems like a deck set up to do all of its work by turn 2. It feels like a small-ball deck by walking away from Mind Funeral/Fraying Sanity. It worked mostly for him, especially if Tron and Burn are prevalent. Would this work in a post-bloodbraid/Jace world? Not sure.
The deck is much better positioned against burn because of the 4 Scribes as 0/3 blockers and 2 Brutality.
The deck is excellent against mono-green tron with 3 Surgical and up to 16 ways to mill by turn 2, possibly hitting a tron land for extraction purposes.
As for 5-Color Humans, the lower casting costs mean Bridge can be set up much earlier to lock them out. Perhaps in an aggro meta, the Manic Scribes are good simply because of its 3 toughness?
I noted he only ran 1 Crypt Incursion. He got results with his list, but in a 5 color Humans meta, I'd have run 3. It is not a dead card too often, and when it is, you board it out.