MTG Salvation

@repeatsyx2 i think the solution is not to run more islands but lest blue depending spells. Cards like Spellskite and Walking Ballista that serve double porpoise is what we need and Engineered Explosivesis awesome to deal with many annoying early game things like Aether Vial or Goblin Guide. I'm testing the deck on Cockatrice and fell that cards that can be play early for cheap and late for a ton of mana are too underrated.

@ebksicc 100% Agree

@prdgychild0007 Jace is not what we are looking for, we have probably the best game wining threats of modern. The problem is not that Jace is bad (because he is super good) the problem is that he is a finisher that help us win against decks we already beat easily and do nothing against decks we struggle with (Low to the ground aggro decks). We are running cards like Chalice of the Void and Condescend because they are good vs our "arch nemesis" and the best performing lists usually are the once that have anti aggro technology main deck.

I think that we are getting closer and closer to win a mayor event with the daily testing and collaboration of the community, and lists that are tune to fight aggro main deck usually do perform better because we don't have any problem crushing the other decks (except D&T because **** then) and it is super easy to side some Spellskite/Walking Ballista for more control cards.

I am not defedning jace just wanted to cast him in modern =p but back to the deck. It feels great, currently want to get either 2 of or 1/1 split of dismembers/spatial in the main. running 3 repeal/ 2remand/2 supreme. Supreme has been so good! thinking about dropping a repeal but the draw is so good. We need a spatial that is -2/-2 and draws.


Any ideas for good removal that draws?

I've actually been contemplating with Spellskite. It seems really good right now with so many Humans, Burn and Jund in the meta. Also doesn't get bounced by Thing in the Ice from some UR or UW lists.

Okay glad other people are having problems with DnT. My roommate and two other people at my lgs have it. Luckily for me it's not their only deck. I mean, I have definitely punted against them, giving me the feel bads, however it feels like I only win when I have the nuts.

I can't imagine removing a condescend from the deck. What is the reason behind cutting the card? I'd have to talk myself out of 8 if I could have them.

For me Condescend and Thirst for Knowledge are as important as Expedition Map or Academy Ruins

I was thinking about consistency (reduce the need of double blue) and early game interactions and because of that i decided to cut Snapcaster Mage and play a copy of Spellskite instead, and put back the copy of Talisman of Dominance on the main deck so i'm back to 25 mana sources.

I also consider Gifts Ungiven like a "Snapcaster" but more flexible because it really helps to set up some nasty stuff from picking counter spells to board wipes or just value.

Another thing, i was wondering on my side board plan and i think that graveyard hate will become specially good to fight the "hordes" of Snapcaster Mage that will come with JTMS decks. And also it will be important to have some more "anti aggro technology" as an answer to all the GoWide.deck that will become more popular to fight JTMS decks.

Finally here are some numbers if you are interested:

MB

Colored Spells: 18
Blue Spells: 18
Blue Sources: 9
Counter Spells: 8
Draw Spells: 4 (5 if you consider Gifts Ungiven)
Tutors: 8
Board Sweepers: 3

Here is my list right now:



I'm starting to think that it may be a good idea to run 2 Engineered Explosives maybe 2 main or 1 main 1 side.

Just 1 mindslaver seems crazy! How does B-skull play out for ya?

For me Batterskull is an over-performer, for many reasons but most importantly it pairs well with Trinket/Treasure Mage and Walking Ballista becomes a monster.

Another thing that makes me play Batterskull is the cost, 5 is super easy to get even without tron online, also the fact that it cost 5 instead of 6 like Wurmcoil Engine makes it a turn faster to play it and back it up with counter spells.

Another thing is that UWx control will become the new "norm" meaning Path to Exile will be more played and we can re-cast it with out Academy Ruins.

And last but not least vigilance is very under rated.

Regarding Gifts Ungiven I use it not for card advantage but card selection, it is like another copy of every card on the deck but I have to admit that is pretty "borderline". Probably a second Supreme Will will be a good idea, or a copy of Dismember main can be a better option, but it is like a "pet" card to me and there are many tricks that can be pull off with it. Probably the main reason I run it is because it's fun and it takes advantage of the way our deck is build (we have many 1 offs that can for the most part can be recover from the bin).

For people *****ting on Jace, the idea is to run him as a flex slot. it's a 1 of and no more. you don't want to cast him on t4. ideally, you cast him later with a wurm in play to refuel your hand, bounce a blocker, or cut off topdecks. it has been brilliant for me so far and i don't intend to cut him. But that's me. Solemn is fine too. But jace's ceiling is much higher. Jace has won me multiple games online already as he also acts as another win con with slaver lock going.

So, assuming the lists as seen on MTGGoldfish, is there a sideboard guide anywhere? The one in the primer is a bit out of date.

@FlyingWhales07 that is exactly the reason i don't like him, because he is good closing a game that we already stabilize and not stabilizing a losing game and we have problems doing the second not the first, obviously with Wurmcoil Engine or a after a "oblivion lock" he is awesome or on a control mirror where the threat density is low he shines, but again we don't have problems with mid rage/control decks but with aggro decks where there is high threat density and we pretty much need a stabilizer or we loose. Ill probably test him but i feel that he may be a nice side board option more than a mind deck staple.

@thnkr there is not (as far as I know) but you should make your sideboard to "fill the gaps" against what ever think is causing you trouble

I get that point. he isn't great against aggro. but he's the tits against pretty much everything else. and if you're running solemn in his place, is he really gonna give you any percentage points vs aggro? Jace at least can bounce a key creature or draw 3 cards and find an o stone or ugin and soak up some damage game 1. we're talking about the best planeswalker every printed...in a blue deck...there's no reason to not run at least 1 while changing our 2 land destruction lands to field of ruins to get some shuffle effects. He is better than gifts by a mile, and he is better than solemn. the rest of the deck doesn't need to change to accommodate.

For reference, here is my list:

// 60 Maindeck
// 10 Artifact
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Expedition Map
1 Oblivion Stone
2 Mindslaver
1 Talisman of Dominance

// 7 Creature
1 Walking Ballista
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Treasure Mage
1 Trinket Mage
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Platinum Angel
1 Sundering Titan

// 17 Instant
4 Condescend
3 Repeal
1 Cyclonic Rift
3 Remand
1 Supreme Will
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Dismember

// 24 Land
1 Academy Ruins
1 Gemstone Caverns
4 Island
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
1 River of Tears
1 Tolaria West
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Tower
2 Snow-Covered Island
1 Field of Ruin

// 2 Planeswalker
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


// 15 Sideboard
// 2 Artifact
SB: 1 Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives

// 1 Creature
SB: 1 Wurmcoil Engine

// 2 Enchantment
SB: 2 Spreading Seas

// 8 Instant
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Dismember
SB: 2 Spatial Contortion
SB: 2 Negate

// 1 Land
SB: 1 Field of Ruin

// 1 Sorcery
SB: 1 All Is Dust

I'm very happy with this and don't really feel like any of it needs changing until the meta shakes out. I do believe that you need at least 2x chalice and 2x EE in the 75 right now. I think remand is sneaky good right now and got better post jace.

Hey there community.
Wall of texte ahead:
I'v been recently noticing that when I loose, I tend too often to loose to myself. I feel like the deck has something like (let's try this) 3 modes when starting any game (before-after-sideboard/before-after-mulliganing): Natural Tron Plus a threat and it's usually game against most of the decks that can't interact or deal with the actual threat; Some tron lands, a blue source and controldraw cards; Awkward mismatching manasource and spells. Usually I mulligan to get to mode 1 or 2 or what would be best for the match up ofc. But I sometimes end up out of juice, whether it is because I mulliganed "alot" because it is often a NECESSITY; keeping or playing with a mode #3 is basically prayer answered for godly topdecks or simply loosing. Like most of the time, when I loose it's because I'm in top deck mode and I can't see to find things that are either non-land; against good players, even counterspells don't always do it, because they know I need to counter something to actually get the value out of it (either drawing or scrying) and if they have any board I'm facing a inevitable death. I've played the deck for a couple years (total with pauses); I mostly am recognized as a good performing player in my LGS; often winning F(W-T, etc.)NM or being top 3.
What I am trying to say here is I'm starting to feel the need to make major changes in the deck because sometimes, it just doesn't work, and I'm not talking about bad matchups, but simply like I said earlier: loosing to myself. Other control decks have alot of outs like search or Cryptic command to draw, etc. We have some, but I feel like it's not enough. I'm thinking of trying to implement cards like think twice so that I may be able to draw turn 2 in case of "no counter" and it's a long term good value. I'm open to suggestion, because atm, I feel like being in a corner.
The deck that made 15th place at last Grand Prix, if I am correct, mostly recognized that counterspells aren't enough essentially replacing them all with creature destruction in his SB. There is alot to say on this this subject and I know that the Pierakor's and Shoktroopah's list are a "chasse gardée". So what I am asking here is what are your impression of the deck and we should be adapting: Idk, like accepting our control nature and reducing our Tron lands to 9 for more consistent control, or anything of the sort that is worth tryouts etc. Also, the meta is changing and we're gonna need to adapt: counterspells on the draws just arent good enough.
Simply talking about our 4 liberal slots over 15 pages isn't enough Imho.

2c

Shok has been running 2-4 Spatial Contortion and 3-4 Dismember in the 75 for a couple months now. You're right that counterspells on the draw are not enough, but I feel that "the" list has already accounted for that. Supreme Will and TfK are already immensely better than Think Twice.

Post-sideboard on the draw (how I play and at least how I remember Shok playing) 2 Expedition Maps come out for removal if it's needed. I think that is about as much you can do. The deck is hard control/selection with the possibility of just blowing someone out with fast tron. If you go down to 9 Urza lands I think you just scrap the whole plan and play Islands/splash another color and now you're not U Tron.

After playing the deck for one year I definitely agree with you that the U Tron just feels bad some nights, but unfortunately people smarter than me have been tinkering with it for years and there just isn't much room for innovation. You just have to plan your sideboard for the expected meta and know which flex slots can be sided out.

It sounds defeatist in a way, but the deck just crushes people to a 5-0 some weeks too (way more often than scrubbing out) so I get stuck not wanting to mess with Shok's list.

If you look at the past 2 weeks or so worth of threads, you should see that a lot of us are having the same problem. And one of the main point that came out of it was that we NEED a blue source for early game interaction (unless you just have t3 Tron into a threat). Lowering the curve also helps for consistency too, but I don't think that we need more cantrips like Serum Visions because we already have so much cantrips and filters.

I have found that playing a less greedy manabase (with more islands) and some Talismans have been great for me. I fear that a lot of people underestimate the value of these mana-rocks. And having more flexible cards like Walking Ballista and Supreme Will is great too. I also think that we're in a meta-game where packing mainboard 1-2x dismember is also great (or a must), especially in a Vial, BBE, and Cavern meta.

We are in between some meta-shifts right now and I think it's the perfect time to tune our deck more. The shift seems to be going towards more midrange and control heavy meta. So we'll have to see as we're supposed to have a great matchup against either of those archetypes, but we don't know the full context of the BBE midrange or JTMS control with Field of Ruin.

The new control decks running 4x field of ruins and 2-3 Spreading Seas are a house against us. We can literally not out value them anymore. We are no longer the best big blue deck lol. Field of ruin is what our deck is left in when we go up against these decks. That said, it is fun and rewarding to play and creates long and fun games even if we do not win. Magic is meant to enjoy. Most opponents complement me on playing the deck because it is not just net decked out of the top 8 lists and is something new with interesting interactions that both sides can get behind. winning with a slaver lock is still more fin then winning by getting run over by burn or hyper aggro lol

I think that the problem is not only the "lack" of blue sources (usually 9~) but the over reliance on then. We need more cards like Walking Ballista/Spellskite/Chalice of the Void/Engineered Explosives so we don't get "stuck". Another thing is that as mention by @prdgychild0007 we can't relay on tron as much as before vs control because of their excellent "land destruction" but that does not shut us down if we hit every land drop we can easily beat then on the long run because our finishers are better and that is also another good reason to try a cheaper more resilient stabilizer Batterskull.

Maybe we can even try Hangarback Walker... again...

Edit #1: Engineered Explosives will really be good for some very specific situation with out blue like X = 0 vs affinity or tokens

I think that a problem that that might lead us to is, if we have access to all of these colorless cards for the deck to support it, at what point do we drop the blue and go green, for more consistency? I understand that the Gx Tron decks go for a different angle, but it's very difficult to justify running blue-oriented Tron if green-oriented Tron just does it better.

I'm not saying that people should just give up on Utron, but I do feel that it's fair to consider how exactly we're attempting to make this work, what exactly justifies it as more effective than alternate options. If the justifying argument is one of a satisfaction of playing a personally preferred playstyle, then we must also honestly acknowledge that our win rates will suffer accordingly.

Well if you start talking about other colors and archetypes, there's just no end to it. Why would Jeskai control player play Jeskai Geist? Why would people play madcap instead of TTB in Blue Moon? Why does anyone play Grixis control when you can play Death's Shadow? Why would you play Bant Coco when you can go Abzan Coco? Why would you play Bant Eldrazi when you can just play Eldrazi Tron or RG Tron? Seriously, it doesn't end.

The point of Blue Tron is to get a more interactive styled deck that doesn't straight out lose to combo, but still get to play the big things that Tron likes to play. Our problem nowadays is not the choice of Blue over Green. It's that the meta shifted quite a lot from more midrange-y (like Jund, Junk, Abzan, etc) and combo-heavy decks (like Storm, Ad Nauseam, Twin, etc) to faster creature heavy decks in the last 2-3 years. But the deck list hasn't really changed much to adapt to it. That's why we are struggling.