When I tested with Reservoir, I had those games where I had too many expensive spells on top of the library (Reservoir and Citadel), causing me to lose because, well, not enough life to work with. I think I prefer the Spellbomb + Implement version so far. I also prefer Spellbomb over Children, it's more synergistic with F's Reward and more flexible.
I understand why Bridge / Aether Spellbomb can be a consideration, this deck has absolutely no interaction main deck and it wins pretty slowly in comparison to other linear decks. I believe the deck needs a couple silver bullets main deck to make sure it doesn't lose G1 to variance too often.
When I tested with Reservoir, I had those games where I had too many expensive spells on top of the library (Reservoir and Citadel), causing me to lose because, well, not enough life to work with. I think I prefer the Spellbomb + Implement version so far. I also prefer Spellbomb over Children, it's more synergistic with F's Reward and more flexible.
I understand why Bridge / Aether Spellbomb can be a consideration, this deck has absolutely no interaction main deck and it wins pretty slowly in comparison to other linear decks. I believe the deck needs a couple silver bullets main deck to make sure it doesn't lose G1 to variance too often.
I've actually had the opposite experience with my Citadel No Yard Hate build: I can actually afford to cast Bolas's Citadel with life points mid-combo pre-large-life-gain (at least once against aggro, at least twice if I start with around 15-20 life) in that deck, while I pretty much have to rip it off the top of my library every time with Citadel Eggs. This persists even with the higher combo curve of my Citadel No Yard Hate build (Pentad Prism and Simian Spirit Guide cost 2-3 life to do pretty much nothing but rip themselves off the top of the library mid-combo). My maindeck playset of Renewed Faith has been that clutch. Aetherflux Reservoir turning Citadel (and all other nonlands) into a life gain spell has also been pretty nice. I pay life mid-combo for both Aetherflux and Faith's Reward much of the time, though.
I do prefer Sunbeam Spellbomb over Children of Korlis, though: the delayed cantrip has been so dang important that Sunbeam Spellbomb doesn't gain me life most of the time. Sunbeam Spellbomb's large life gain has also been quite clutch. Children's main role is to be a cheaper Aetherflux mid-combo (that can't win the game), though, and I sometimes wonder if going with a 2-2 Children-Aetherflux split is the best option. (Children is less likely to be dead pre-combo, but everyone kills it pre-combat, and it turns on distressing stuff like Reflector Mage without any pre-combo profit for me.)
I also prefer life gain eggs over Aetherflux in Citadel Eggs for fairly obvious reasons. I've easily won with Bolas's Citadel cracks in Citadel Eggs before hitting the bottom of my library, and life gain eggs gain me more life pre-combo and are more synergistic with Faith's Reward.
I don't think the Citadel Eggs deck can afford silver bullets maindeck that aren't cantrip eggs (Spellbombs, mainly). My Citadel Dodge Yard Hate deck can afford the silver bullets, but sometimes, I wonder if just replacing them all with some combination of Opt, Fabricate, Glint-Nest Crane, Chromatic Sphere, and Chromatic Star is the best option. The silver bullets are occasionally saving my butt in Game 1, but Opt has already done a good job of getting me past 1 land, and Fabricate has tutored for Bolas's Citadel so many times and Pentad Prism once or twice (in grindy games).
I can actually afford to cast Bolas's Citadel with life points mid-combo pre-large-life-gain (at least once against aggro, at least twice if I start with around 15-20 life) in that deck, while I pretty much have to rip it off the top of my library every time with Citadel Eggs.
That's indeed useful. The other way around though, you end up having Reservoirs, Citadels and lands on top of the library when you have Citadel on the BF, which increases the amount of cantrips / fetchlands needed to clear the way.
When I have a Citadel going and I see another on top, I actually don't want to cast it early in the turn. When I eventually want to, it's when I have digged 2 Lotus Petals (or amassed a ton of mana in my pool) and have a Reward ready, in which case I crack an egg to draw the Citadel on top, then hardcast it.
I don't have much experience with the pack though, I am not sure how consistent that scenario is. I never reached the bottom of my ibrary though.
I sometimes wonder if going with a 2-2 Children-Aetherflux split is the best option. (Children is less likely to be dead pre-combo, but everyone kills it pre-combat, and it turns on distressing stuff like Reflector Mage without any pre-combo profit for me.)
Are you interested in 2 Reservoirs + 2 Spellbombs (0 Children) then ? To be fair, I have the impression Reservoir already gains a ton of life, and Spellbomb has felt sufficient in my list (which is almost the same as AronGomu's post #46), so Children seems unnecessary and less synergistic with the plan, no matter the variant you build.
I don't think the Citadel Eggs deck can afford silver bullets maindeck that aren't cantrip eggs (Spellbombs, mainly)
I agree, I tried to add a Bridge and didn't work at all. Aether Spellbomb doesn't cost much though, it can easily replace on of the lifegain eggs.
Overall, which version gives you the better results, or the most fun ?
On another note, @AronGomu, I feel like the deck should run more fetchlands and fewer basics (4-5 should be enough, along with 7 fetches). And a Gemstone Caverns should be tested too, I don't think it's too damaging to exile a card in our opener.
Personnally I found no use in Academy Ruins, I'm now trying Inventors' Fair, but I highly doubt it's gonna gain more than one life per game, or tutor sthg in time. Ghost Quarter is ok (maybe not as a 4-of though), but I'm not confident it should force the manabase to be worse, i.e. playing too many basics. What do you think ?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
That's indeed useful. The other way around though, you end up having Reservoirs, Citadels and lands on top of the library when you have Citadel on the BF, which increases the amount of cantrips / fetchlands needed to clear the way.
When I have a Citadel going and I see another on top, I actually don't want to cast it early in the turn. When I eventually want to, it's when I have digged 2 Lotus Petals (or amassed a ton of mana in my pool) and have a Reward ready, in which case I crack an egg to draw the Citadel on top, then hardcast it.
I don't have much experience with the pack though, I am not sure how consistent that scenario is. I never reached the bottom of my ibrary though.
I generally find that I don't have to jump through too many hoops (life gain-wise) to be able to cast my first Aetherflux Reservoir or my second Bolas's Citadel with life (in my Citadel Dodge Yard Hate build). I like having the freedom to not need to clear every Citadel/Aetherflux out of the way with cantrips/fetches in my Citadel Dodge Yard Hate deck--I simply cast them with my life points instead. Once I resolve my first Aetherflux, I bounce back to 20 or more life very quickly.
With my AronGomu-like Citadel Eggs build, I basically never want to cast the second Bolas's Citadel before I can pop 2 or more Sunbeam Spellbombs per cycle. Since I reliably win with Bolas's Citadel cracks in Citadel Eggs, Aetherflux is useless there.
Are you interested in 2 Reservoirs + 2 Spellbombs (0 Children) then ? To be fair, I have the impression Reservoir already gains a ton of life, and Spellbomb has felt sufficient in my list (which is almost the same as AronGomu's post #46), so Children seems unnecessary and less synergistic with the plan, no matter the variant you build.
You misunderstand my life gain split for my Citadel Dodge Yard Hate deck. I'll never drop below 4 Sunbeam Spellbombs in it. They cantrip significantly more often than they gain life, but they are versatile enough to earn their spots all the same. I'm always interested in a 4 Spellbomb + X Children + Y Aetherflux split, but I don't think I can drop to 1 Aetherflux in my Citadel Dodge Yard Hate deck, or I get too weak to a precision Spell Queller. The Bolas's Citadel sac-tap win is shaky in my build because I don't run mass artifact/permanent recursion, and I have fizzled before but been able to activate Aetherflux FTW at the end, so I'm not so certain sometimes about dropping to 2 Aetherflux.
Children of Korlis is like a cheaper Aetherflux that cannot win the game in terms of how much life a mid-combo one can gain, and it's easier to cast pre-combo (so it's more likely to do something impactful pre-combo, as I've found that Aetherflux is both hard to cast and rather useless before I combo off). After testing my Citadel Dodge Yard Hate deck a bunch against aggro, I felt that I needed to lower my mid-combo curve a bit. Occasionally, even the 4 life to pay to get the first Aetherflux is too much. I still want my Children and Aetherflux counts to sum to 4, though, as I found that I hit large life gain often enough at those rates, but I didn't like my odds if I dropped their sum to 3.
I agree that Children are less synergistic in Citadel Eggs (to the point that I also wouldn't play them in Citadel Eggs), but that's because they do practically nothing in the pre-Bolas's Citadel stage of the combo turn and they cannot cantrip.
Overall, which version gives you the better results, or the most fun ?
Right now, I'm more confident taking my Citadel Dodge Yard Hate deck out for a spin in the open meta. I'm more confident that I can combo off on 10 or less starting life with it, and as a bonus, not only does it dodge graveyard hate, it also is a bit less weak to Stony Silence.
On another note, @AronGomu, I feel like the deck should run more fetchlands and fewer basics (4-5 should be enough, along with 7 fetches). And a Gemstone Caverns should be tested too, I don't think it's too damaging to exile a card in our opener.
Personnally I found no use in Academy Ruins, I'm now trying Inventors' Fair, but I highly doubt it's gonna gain more than one life per game, or tutor sthg in time. Ghost Quarter is ok (maybe not as a 4-of though), but I'm not confident it should force the manabase to be worse, i.e. playing too many basics. What do you think ?
I found Inventors' Fair to be too hard to activate in my Citadel Dodge Yard Hate build (this is the same reason that I dropped to 1 Mox Opal there). I suspect the Fair may be an option for Citadel Eggs in grindy metas, though.
Academy Ruins is probably too slow in Citadel Eggs, especially since it doesn't need to start a combo turn with Bolas's Citadel and it can cantrip like the dickens, but it's been clutch a couple of times mid-combo in my Citadel Dodge Yard Hate deck (put a Conjurer's Bauble on top, then cast it, then cantrip that land off the top of my library with it).
I'm leery about 4 Ghost Quarter in a deck that wants to cast Reshape on Turns 2-3, but GQ was a staple in Second Sunrise because it's so good at ramping mid-combo.
Has anyone tried this with dice factory cards? Cornucopia coretapper chalice? It’s another way to ramp up quickly. I started testing last night and had strong results. The surge node felt weak but the coretapper cornucopia felt good.
I have been goldfishing with my version (Citadel-egg) starting at 5 life to see if my version can sustain pressure from phoenix deck or burn (with a no eidolon opening). It was not great, I was losing 5-7. Every defeat is a game were I did not combo before turn 5, so it count natural brick within the sample.
So I did some change to the main deck :
Now, I'm 11-8. This version did 6-1 starting at 5 life and killing at turn 4. I even killed turn 3 two times !
Talking about the changes, I was at 19 lands version when testing and I was bricking no-stop mid combo because of flood. But the thing is, you really want to have 3 lands by turn 3, so it's hard to find the balance. I did go down to 16 and putting 4 Mishra's Bauble. At first, I dismissed this card because it's not an active egg mid-combo but it's just really good to be sacrificed by reshape. So... yeah, still usefull. And you can crack it to find lands in the first 2/3 turn when assembling the combo. But I didn't crack it at all, maybe because I was lucky and drawing the Faith's Reward all the times, but I think about replacing all Mishra's Bauble with Welding Jar to be super resilient and just being at 16 lands and don't care about manaless (often times they're not that bad and I still combo turn 4).
You really need 0 CCM artifact for Reshape, Whir of Invention and turning on Mox Opal so you can't cut all of those. Maybe 1/2 for Serum Visions because it help a lot mid-combo finding Sunbeam Spellbomb and Faith's Reward. I would really like to get back those visions.
The playset of Whir of Invention is just fantastic. It's just Reshape 5th to 8th, sometimes better, sometimes worst. In the 19 games I've (and even more before), I've bricked only once because I haven't got Bolas's Citadel by turn 4. The deck is consistent as hell, even better than KCI imo.
I found very cool tricks to do when comboing with Faith's Reward before putting Bolas's Citadel in play. If you have multiple Whir of Invention, you can chain them to put multiple Lotus Bloom in the yard so you make a lot of mana with reward.
The goal of the deck is to have bolas in play with 1/2 mana and 1/2 egg, when you are at this point, it's hard to lose.
Often, I choose to draw reshape/whir when they're on the top (with Bolas active) because I just want to play them for X = 1 and search the spellbomb. When comboing, the first is often played from the top to get lotus, then the second search the life gain. This way, it's like I have virtual 10 copy of each and I almost never brick.
I cut all Ghost Quarter to see if they were missing and they're not. I still keep a Plains in the deck because you're heavy white post board but with all fetch and eggs, you have like 22 white sources, that should be enough. Inventors' Fair was bad for me. I just don't need consistency and I can't afford to pay 5 mana because it means cracking a lotus. If I crack the lotus, I can't play the citadel i've tutored. Buried Ruin is probably better but it's useless too when facing graveyard hate. I don't think you need utilitary land. Just put some fresh basic island. Gemstone Caverns is interesting, it's possible you want it but I doubt that it help advancing by 1 turn the combo most of the time. All the times you go off from suspended lotus and don't have anything to sacrifice from reshape on turn 1. And you need a lot of ressources. I'll test it but I'm sceptical.
I'm gonna test this deck in real match with a friend tomorrow. I gonna report to you the result. The match-up will be Phoenix, Dredge, shadow and maybe Rock with the very list above.
If you want, you can take this list and goldfish it starting at 5 life and tell me your result. A loss is when you didn't win before the turn 5. The lines are super hard when you're low in life, so at start I was losing a lot to myself.
I don't think you want to give any space to use removal for your opponent. I think the bird is a trap.
@Lord_Mektar Yeah, wtf. How Wizard could do that to us ? I was excited when I saw the name, then I was the costa and the color, then at last the effect lol
@Snookumz MY deck is already super consistent to make the mana it needs, I don't think you need those unless it's more reliable and faster but I doubt it
All this time I’ve been trying to find people to help me brew Bolas’ Citadel, and then THIS is sitting right here, good stuff.
I’ve been using an Eggs version that utilises Faith’s Reward and Open the Vaults to churn through my deck and eventually Loop with Pyrite Spellbomb or just tap and loop Citadel a bunch of times. I originally used Aetherflux Reservoir as a way to win the game like some of you guys are, but eventually figured out its a ‘win-more’ effect in a deck like this. I can win without it, it just makes the games quicker which I honestly don’t care about.
2x Sunbeam Spellbom is what I’m using at the moment as my source of Lifegain, but I’m thinking about reducing it to maybe just the single one. I also haven’t tested Children of Koilos which can gain a ton of life however doesn’t get reanimated by Open the Vaults, so I’m a bit weary of it. Personal opinion is that the Implement provides too little Life to be worth playing, even if it does draw a card.
Here's what I got so far for a Bolas's Citadel combo deck. No egg recursion, just straight to the Citadel as fast as possible. Pretty consistent turn 4 gold fish, with some turn 3, rarely fizzles with London mulligan + Serum Powder.
With 11 lands and tons of redraw/shuffle, it's highly improbable that any fizzling will happen once Bolas's Citadel is on the board. The dice factory mana (cornucopia, chalice, coretapper) is both explosive in the early game and important during the combo as it amounts to free mana and free spell count. You need to set up the Aetherflux before you run out of life, so sometimes Reshape x=4 needs to be cast. Serum Powder, Mox opal, Reshape x=0 for Lotus Bloom, and the dice factory all profit mana when cast from library, while Chromatic Star and Conjurer's Bauble help put a Reshape from the top into the hand (and Shredder can nab from graveyard). Otherwise, during a combo, a Reshape on top will usually be x=0 for a Darksteel Citadel out of the library, to reduce the land count.
Fortunately, with Serum Powder and London mulligan, finding a Citadel or Reshape in an opening hand isn't too hard, you just need to mulligan liberally. Need to be careful with Serum Powder -- need 1 Aetherflux Reservoir in library, as well as 1 Bolas's Citadel, and probably 1 Watery Grave too.
Anyways, that's all I have for 0 games played versus opponents. The goldfishing is fun though.
Here's what I got so far for a Bolas's Citadel combo deck. No egg recursion, just straight to the Citadel as fast as possible. Pretty consistent turn 4 gold fish, with some turn 3, rarely fizzles with London mulligan + Serum Powder.
With 11 lands and tons of redraw/shuffle, it's highly improbable that any fizzling will happen once Bolas's Citadel is on the board. The dice factory mana (cornucopia, chalice, coretapper) is both explosive in the early game and important during the combo as it amounts to free mana and free spell count. You need to set up the Aetherflux before you run out of life, so sometimes Reshape x=4 needs to be cast. Serum Powder, Mox opal, Reshape x=0 for Lotus Bloom, and the dice factory all profit mana when cast from library, while Chromatic Star and Conjurer's Bauble help put a Reshape from the top into the hand (and Shredder can nab from graveyard). Otherwise, during a combo, a Reshape on top will usually be x=0 for a Darksteel Citadel out of the library, to reduce the land count.
Fortunately, with Serum Powder and London mulligan, finding a Citadel or Reshape in an opening hand isn't too hard, you just need to mulligan liberally. Need to be careful with Serum Powder -- need 1 Aetherflux Reservoir in library, as well as 1 Bolas's Citadel, and probably 1 Watery Grave too.
Anyways, that's all I have for 0 games played versus opponents. The goldfishing is fun though.
Im glad someone else saw similar potential, I had posted the same thing a few posts ago and nobody commented.
Goldfish decks are good g1 but i'm more interested in what you do post-board.
Plus this deck simply cannot beat control. You're one spell pierce away from doing nothing at all.
I get what we're trying to do here, but what made a similar deck to this (KCI) good was it's resilience to hate. This has none. It's just another glass cannon like belcher.
What I'd be more interested in is a deck that can take advantage of a combo potential but can also play magic outside of disruption.
Now if we had access to something like Goblin Welder...that would be a completely different story...
why don't we play Whir of Invention as an alternate way of getting the Citadel? and since 2 Citadels are a wincon by themselves we don't need any extra things like Grapeshot anymore.
why don't we play Whir of Invention as an alternate way of getting the Citadel? and since 2 Citadels are a wincon by themselves we don't need any extra things like Grapeshot anymore.
I can support this idea, my own Citadel Eggs deck is running a 4x Whir of Invention / 2x Reshape split, and Improvising to fetch out a Bolas’ Citadel comes up more often than thought. Even Mid-Combo Whir isn’t a bad card to have, it costs more than Reshape but it doesn’t make much of a difference. And if you’ve got a Citadel in hand already then fetch out a Lotus Bloom at the end of the opponents turn.
why don't we play Whir of Invention as an alternate way of getting the Citadel? and since 2 Citadels are a wincon by themselves we don't need any extra things like Grapeshot anymore.
Whir is great in Citadel Eggs because it can get both Lotus Bloom for a cool 3 mana and Bolas's Citadel by tapping enough artifacts. I don't have enough artifacts in my Citadel Dodge Yard Hate build to support Whir, though, especially since Pentad Prism ramps faster.
Just pointing out that some have said how hard the bbb casting cost is. So wanted to point out that Urborg can be used to ease this.
Also depending on how the deck is built. Things like Pentad Prism, Lotus Bloom and other various color filters help get BBB.
On another note, for people who are testing out their decks: What turn is your deck able to usually combo off and win? For me its turn 4 most of the time, sometimes later and sometimes earlier though. Also, how are people approaching their sideboards? I'm still a bit unsure if I'm utilizing mine properly, so I'm asking around for ideas
I was thinking, why are we not considering disciple of the vault here? Since the goal is to just get a million artifacts in play, you get auto 20 life lost with disciple. I mean maybe it's win more, but I can't imagine running a 1-2 copies of it in the main would hurt much once you start going off.
I was thinking, why are we not considering disciple of the vault here? Since the goal is to just get a million artifacts in play, you get auto 20 life lost with disciple. I mean maybe it's win more, but I can't imagine running a 1-2 copies of it in the main would hurt much once you start going off.
Disciple of the Vault is pretty win-more. Unlike Children of Korlis, it cannot gain you enough life to keep comboing off if you only find it late in the combo turn, and if you play it early, it immediately dies to removal as often as Children of Korlis does. It can't even Fog removal-light decks, unlike Children of Korlis. Fizzle with a Disciple and you haven't gained life (unlike fizzling with Aetherflux Reservoir or Children), so your opponent can often kill you before your next turn, unlike with Aetherflux/Children. The deck already wins with Aetherflux or Faith's Reward into Bolas's Citadel mass sacrificing; it doesn't need an additional win con. Even Aetherflux builds can win with Citadel cracks.
Just pointing out that some have said how hard the bbb casting cost is. So wanted to point out that Urborg can be used to ease this.
Also depending on how the deck is built. Things like Pentad Prism, Lotus Bloom and other various color filters help get BBB.
On another note, for people who are testing out their decks: What turn is your deck able to usually combo off and win? For me its turn 4 most of the time, sometimes later and sometimes earlier though. Also, how are people approaching their sideboards? I'm still a bit unsure if I'm utilizing mine properly, so I'm asking around for ideas
I find that Citadel Eggs tends to combo off on Turn 3-4 (maybe Turn 3.5), while my Citadel Dodge Yard Hate deck combos off closer to Turn 4.5 (with some Turn 3 wins and plenty of Turn 4 wins). Prudent use of life gain often means that Turn 4.5 is good enough against aggro, though.
As for the Urborg, ToY suggestion, it's actually a decent one, as it mana fixes (including for Pentad Prism) and lets you pay life to your fetchlands later and less often. I'm still experimenting with Blast Zone in the land flex slot to see how often it is anti-hate, though, and it cannot pay for Reshape for Lotus Bloom.
Glad to help. Perhaps the white disciple of the vault, the white one would be able to do work in here as a life gain spell? Probably not main board as it turns on removal but in some matchups it may be good at buying some time. I don't know as I've never tested that card outside of original mirrodin block.
Glad to help. Perhaps the white disciple of the vault, the white one would be able to do work in here as a life gain spell? Probably not main board as it turns on removal but in some matchups it may be good at buying some time. I don't know as I've never tested that card outside of original mirrodin block.
I was thinking, why are we not considering disciple of the vault here? Since the goal is to just get a million artifacts in play, you get auto 20 life lost with disciple. I mean maybe it's win more, but I can't imagine running a 1-2 copies of it in the main would hurt much once you start going off.
Disciple of the Vault is pretty win-more. Unlike Children of Korlis, it cannot gain you enough life to keep comboing off if you only find it late in the combo turn, and if you play it early, it immediately dies to removal as often as Children of Korlis does. It can't even Fog removal-light decks, unlike Children of Korlis. Fizzle with a Disciple and you haven't gained life (unlike fizzling with Aetherflux Reservoir or Children), so your opponent can often kill you before your next turn, unlike with Aetherflux/Children. The deck already wins with Aetherflux or Faith's Reward into Bolas's Citadel mass sacrificing; it doesn't need an additional win con. Even Aetherflux builds can win with Citadel cracks.
Just pointing out that some have said how hard the bbb casting cost is. So wanted to point out that Urborg can be used to ease this.
Also depending on how the deck is built. Things like Pentad Prism, Lotus Bloom and other various color filters help get BBB.
On another note, for people who are testing out their decks: What turn is your deck able to usually combo off and win? For me its turn 4 most of the time, sometimes later and sometimes earlier though. Also, how are people approaching their sideboards? I'm still a bit unsure if I'm utilizing mine properly, so I'm asking around for ideas
I find that Citadel Eggs tends to combo off on Turn 3-4 (maybe Turn 3.5), while my Citadel Dodge Yard Hate deck combos off closer to Turn 4.5 (with some Turn 3 wins and plenty of Turn 4 wins). Prudent use of life gain often means that Turn 4.5 is good enough against aggro, though.
As for the Urborg, ToY suggestion, it's actually a decent one, as it mana fixes (including for Pentad Prism) and lets you pay life to your fetchlands later and less often. I'm still experimenting with Blast Zone in the land flex slot to see how often it is anti-hate, though, and it cannot pay for Reshape for Lotus Bloom.
sorry but explain to me why you can't play both? or even all three? multiple win conditions that play well together anyways seems to be the plan no? I'm not advocating for 4 of them, just the 1 of.
I was thinking, why are we not considering disciple of the vault here? Since the goal is to just get a million artifacts in play, you get auto 20 life lost with disciple. I mean maybe it's win more, but I can't imagine running a 1-2 copies of it in the main would hurt much once you start going off.
Disciple of the Vault is pretty win-more. Unlike Children of Korlis, it cannot gain you enough life to keep comboing off if you only find it late in the combo turn, and if you play it early, it immediately dies to removal as often as Children of Korlis does. It can't even Fog removal-light decks, unlike Children of Korlis. Fizzle with a Disciple and you haven't gained life (unlike fizzling with Aetherflux Reservoir or Children), so your opponent can often kill you before your next turn, unlike with Aetherflux/Children. The deck already wins with Aetherflux or Faith's Reward into Bolas's Citadel mass sacrificing; it doesn't need an additional win con. Even Aetherflux builds can win with Citadel cracks.
Just pointing out that some have said how hard the bbb casting cost is. So wanted to point out that Urborg can be used to ease this.
Also depending on how the deck is built. Things like Pentad Prism, Lotus Bloom and other various color filters help get BBB.
On another note, for people who are testing out their decks: What turn is your deck able to usually combo off and win? For me its turn 4 most of the time, sometimes later and sometimes earlier though. Also, how are people approaching their sideboards? I'm still a bit unsure if I'm utilizing mine properly, so I'm asking around for ideas
I find that Citadel Eggs tends to combo off on Turn 3-4 (maybe Turn 3.5), while my Citadel Dodge Yard Hate deck combos off closer to Turn 4.5 (with some Turn 3 wins and plenty of Turn 4 wins). Prudent use of life gain often means that Turn 4.5 is good enough against aggro, though.
As for the Urborg, ToY suggestion, it's actually a decent one, as it mana fixes (including for Pentad Prism) and lets you pay life to your fetchlands later and less often. I'm still experimenting with Blast Zone in the land flex slot to see how often it is anti-hate, though, and it cannot pay for Reshape for Lotus Bloom.
sorry but explain to me why you can't play both? or even all three? multiple win conditions that play well together anyways seems to be the plan no? I'm not advocating for 4 of them, just the 1 of.
I suspect someone is a fan of Pyrite Spellbomb in Citadel Eggs, but Citadel Eggs needs as many slots as possible to synergize with Faith's Reward (I think we've yet to find a Citadel Eggs build that plays Scrap Trawler instead without losing all consistency). Citadel Eggs can play stuff like Serum Visions and Whir of Invention, but yeah, it needs a lot of cantrips and tutors (often cantrip rocks). Aetherflux Reservoir is a 4-mana brick if you start the combo with Faith's Reward instead of Bolas's Citadel, so no, it cannot fit in Citadel Eggs. Citadel Eggs's main source of life gain is Sunbeam Spellbomb instead.
As for my Citadel Dodge Yard Hate deck, Aetherflux Reservoir there is both massive mid-combo life gain and a win con. I need my other nonland slots there to be cantrips (often life gain cantrips), tutors, fast mana, or life gain, so I have no room for additional win cons. I suppose there's stuff like Jace, Wielder of Mysteries that are cantrip win cons, but sheesh, he's so expensive to cast. The Dragonlord Dromoka in my sideboard is meant to be an alt win con that dodges Unmoored Ego and anti-Storm cards, yet synergizes with the combo plan.
The Bolas's Citadel crack plan is already shaky in my Citadel Dodge Yard Hate deck; Ghirapur Aether Grid would be an even shakier plan (although it synergizes with cracking Citadels) because the deck doesn't play that many artifacts and wants to tap several of them with their own abilities. This is the kind of obstacle that additional win cons must face: even if they have utility outside the combo, they don't help me dig for it or sustain it by adding life.
I understand why Bridge / Aether Spellbomb can be a consideration, this deck has absolutely no interaction main deck and it wins pretty slowly in comparison to other linear decks. I believe the deck needs a couple silver bullets main deck to make sure it doesn't lose G1 to variance too often.
I've actually had the opposite experience with my Citadel No Yard Hate build: I can actually afford to cast Bolas's Citadel with life points mid-combo pre-large-life-gain (at least once against aggro, at least twice if I start with around 15-20 life) in that deck, while I pretty much have to rip it off the top of my library every time with Citadel Eggs. This persists even with the higher combo curve of my Citadel No Yard Hate build (Pentad Prism and Simian Spirit Guide cost 2-3 life to do pretty much nothing but rip themselves off the top of the library mid-combo). My maindeck playset of Renewed Faith has been that clutch. Aetherflux Reservoir turning Citadel (and all other nonlands) into a life gain spell has also been pretty nice. I pay life mid-combo for both Aetherflux and Faith's Reward much of the time, though.
I do prefer Sunbeam Spellbomb over Children of Korlis, though: the delayed cantrip has been so dang important that Sunbeam Spellbomb doesn't gain me life most of the time. Sunbeam Spellbomb's large life gain has also been quite clutch. Children's main role is to be a cheaper Aetherflux mid-combo (that can't win the game), though, and I sometimes wonder if going with a 2-2 Children-Aetherflux split is the best option. (Children is less likely to be dead pre-combo, but everyone kills it pre-combat, and it turns on distressing stuff like Reflector Mage without any pre-combo profit for me.)
I also prefer life gain eggs over Aetherflux in Citadel Eggs for fairly obvious reasons. I've easily won with Bolas's Citadel cracks in Citadel Eggs before hitting the bottom of my library, and life gain eggs gain me more life pre-combo and are more synergistic with Faith's Reward.
I don't think the Citadel Eggs deck can afford silver bullets maindeck that aren't cantrip eggs (Spellbombs, mainly). My Citadel Dodge Yard Hate deck can afford the silver bullets, but sometimes, I wonder if just replacing them all with some combination of Opt, Fabricate, Glint-Nest Crane, Chromatic Sphere, and Chromatic Star is the best option. The silver bullets are occasionally saving my butt in Game 1, but Opt has already done a good job of getting me past 1 land, and Fabricate has tutored for Bolas's Citadel so many times and Pentad Prism once or twice (in grindy games).
That's indeed useful. The other way around though, you end up having Reservoirs, Citadels and lands on top of the library when you have Citadel on the BF, which increases the amount of cantrips / fetchlands needed to clear the way.
When I have a Citadel going and I see another on top, I actually don't want to cast it early in the turn. When I eventually want to, it's when I have digged 2 Lotus Petals (or amassed a ton of mana in my pool) and have a Reward ready, in which case I crack an egg to draw the Citadel on top, then hardcast it.
I don't have much experience with the pack though, I am not sure how consistent that scenario is. I never reached the bottom of my ibrary though.
Are you interested in 2 Reservoirs + 2 Spellbombs (0 Children) then ? To be fair, I have the impression Reservoir already gains a ton of life, and Spellbomb has felt sufficient in my list (which is almost the same as AronGomu's post #46), so Children seems unnecessary and less synergistic with the plan, no matter the variant you build.
I agree, I tried to add a Bridge and didn't work at all. Aether Spellbomb doesn't cost much though, it can easily replace on of the lifegain eggs.
Overall, which version gives you the better results, or the most fun ?
On another note, @AronGomu, I feel like the deck should run more fetchlands and fewer basics (4-5 should be enough, along with 7 fetches). And a Gemstone Caverns should be tested too, I don't think it's too damaging to exile a card in our opener.
Personnally I found no use in Academy Ruins, I'm now trying Inventors' Fair, but I highly doubt it's gonna gain more than one life per game, or tutor sthg in time. Ghost Quarter is ok (maybe not as a 4-of though), but I'm not confident it should force the manabase to be worse, i.e. playing too many basics. What do you think ?
I generally find that I don't have to jump through too many hoops (life gain-wise) to be able to cast my first Aetherflux Reservoir or my second Bolas's Citadel with life (in my Citadel Dodge Yard Hate build). I like having the freedom to not need to clear every Citadel/Aetherflux out of the way with cantrips/fetches in my Citadel Dodge Yard Hate deck--I simply cast them with my life points instead. Once I resolve my first Aetherflux, I bounce back to 20 or more life very quickly.
With my AronGomu-like Citadel Eggs build, I basically never want to cast the second Bolas's Citadel before I can pop 2 or more Sunbeam Spellbombs per cycle. Since I reliably win with Bolas's Citadel cracks in Citadel Eggs, Aetherflux is useless there.
You misunderstand my life gain split for my Citadel Dodge Yard Hate deck. I'll never drop below 4 Sunbeam Spellbombs in it. They cantrip significantly more often than they gain life, but they are versatile enough to earn their spots all the same. I'm always interested in a 4 Spellbomb + X Children + Y Aetherflux split, but I don't think I can drop to 1 Aetherflux in my Citadel Dodge Yard Hate deck, or I get too weak to a precision Spell Queller. The Bolas's Citadel sac-tap win is shaky in my build because I don't run mass artifact/permanent recursion, and I have fizzled before but been able to activate Aetherflux FTW at the end, so I'm not so certain sometimes about dropping to 2 Aetherflux.
Children of Korlis is like a cheaper Aetherflux that cannot win the game in terms of how much life a mid-combo one can gain, and it's easier to cast pre-combo (so it's more likely to do something impactful pre-combo, as I've found that Aetherflux is both hard to cast and rather useless before I combo off). After testing my Citadel Dodge Yard Hate deck a bunch against aggro, I felt that I needed to lower my mid-combo curve a bit. Occasionally, even the 4 life to pay to get the first Aetherflux is too much. I still want my Children and Aetherflux counts to sum to 4, though, as I found that I hit large life gain often enough at those rates, but I didn't like my odds if I dropped their sum to 3.
I agree that Children are less synergistic in Citadel Eggs (to the point that I also wouldn't play them in Citadel Eggs), but that's because they do practically nothing in the pre-Bolas's Citadel stage of the combo turn and they cannot cantrip.
Right now, I'm more confident taking my Citadel Dodge Yard Hate deck out for a spin in the open meta. I'm more confident that I can combo off on 10 or less starting life with it, and as a bonus, not only does it dodge graveyard hate, it also is a bit less weak to Stony Silence.
I found Inventors' Fair to be too hard to activate in my Citadel Dodge Yard Hate build (this is the same reason that I dropped to 1 Mox Opal there). I suspect the Fair may be an option for Citadel Eggs in grindy metas, though.
Academy Ruins is probably too slow in Citadel Eggs, especially since it doesn't need to start a combo turn with Bolas's Citadel and it can cantrip like the dickens, but it's been clutch a couple of times mid-combo in my Citadel Dodge Yard Hate deck (put a Conjurer's Bauble on top, then cast it, then cantrip that land off the top of my library with it).
I'm leery about 4 Ghost Quarter in a deck that wants to cast Reshape on Turns 2-3, but GQ was a staple in Second Sunrise because it's so good at ramping mid-combo.
So I did some change to the main deck :
4 Mox Opal
4 Chromatic Star
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Conjurer's Bauble
4 Sunbeam Spellbomb
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Bolas's Citadel
4 Faith's Reward
4 Whir of Invention
6 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Reshape
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Sai, Master Thopterist
4 Wear // Tear
4 Path to Exile
Now, I'm 11-8. This version did 6-1 starting at 5 life and killing at turn 4. I even killed turn 3 two times !
Talking about the changes, I was at 19 lands version when testing and I was bricking no-stop mid combo because of flood. But the thing is, you really want to have 3 lands by turn 3, so it's hard to find the balance. I did go down to 16 and putting 4 Mishra's Bauble. At first, I dismissed this card because it's not an active egg mid-combo but it's just really good to be sacrificed by reshape. So... yeah, still usefull. And you can crack it to find lands in the first 2/3 turn when assembling the combo. But I didn't crack it at all, maybe because I was lucky and drawing the Faith's Reward all the times, but I think about replacing all Mishra's Bauble with Welding Jar to be super resilient and just being at 16 lands and don't care about manaless (often times they're not that bad and I still combo turn 4).
You really need 0 CCM artifact for Reshape, Whir of Invention and turning on Mox Opal so you can't cut all of those. Maybe 1/2 for Serum Visions because it help a lot mid-combo finding Sunbeam Spellbomb and Faith's Reward. I would really like to get back those visions.
The playset of Whir of Invention is just fantastic. It's just Reshape 5th to 8th, sometimes better, sometimes worst. In the 19 games I've (and even more before), I've bricked only once because I haven't got Bolas's Citadel by turn 4. The deck is consistent as hell, even better than KCI imo.
I found very cool tricks to do when comboing with Faith's Reward before putting Bolas's Citadel in play. If you have multiple Whir of Invention, you can chain them to put multiple Lotus Bloom in the yard so you make a lot of mana with reward.
The goal of the deck is to have bolas in play with 1/2 mana and 1/2 egg, when you are at this point, it's hard to lose.
Often, I choose to draw reshape/whir when they're on the top (with Bolas active) because I just want to play them for X = 1 and search the spellbomb. When comboing, the first is often played from the top to get lotus, then the second search the life gain. This way, it's like I have virtual 10 copy of each and I almost never brick.
I cut all Ghost Quarter to see if they were missing and they're not. I still keep a Plains in the deck because you're heavy white post board but with all fetch and eggs, you have like 22 white sources, that should be enough. Inventors' Fair was bad for me. I just don't need consistency and I can't afford to pay 5 mana because it means cracking a lotus. If I crack the lotus, I can't play the citadel i've tutored. Buried Ruin is probably better but it's useless too when facing graveyard hate. I don't think you need utilitary land. Just put some fresh basic island. Gemstone Caverns is interesting, it's possible you want it but I doubt that it help advancing by 1 turn the combo most of the time. All the times you go off from suspended lotus and don't have anything to sacrifice from reshape on turn 1. And you need a lot of ressources. I'll test it but I'm sceptical.
I'm gonna test this deck in real match with a friend tomorrow. I gonna report to you the result. The match-up will be Phoenix, Dredge, shadow and maybe Rock with the very list above.
If you want, you can take this list and goldfish it starting at 5 life and tell me your result. A loss is when you didn't win before the turn 5. The lines are super hard when you're low in life, so at start I was losing a lot to myself.
@Lord_Mektar Yeah, wtf. How Wizard could do that to us ? I was excited when I saw the name, then I was the costa and the color, then at last the effect lol
@Snookumz MY deck is already super consistent to make the mana it needs, I don't think you need those unless it's more reliable and faster but I doubt it
I’ve been using an Eggs version that utilises Faith’s Reward and Open the Vaults to churn through my deck and eventually Loop with Pyrite Spellbomb or just tap and loop Citadel a bunch of times. I originally used Aetherflux Reservoir as a way to win the game like some of you guys are, but eventually figured out its a ‘win-more’ effect in a deck like this. I can win without it, it just makes the games quicker which I honestly don’t care about.
2x Sunbeam Spellbom is what I’m using at the moment as my source of Lifegain, but I’m thinking about reducing it to maybe just the single one. I also haven’t tested Children of Koilos which can gain a ton of life however doesn’t get reanimated by Open the Vaults, so I’m a bit weary of it. Personal opinion is that the Implement provides too little Life to be worth playing, even if it does draw a card.
I know that I’ve seen The Nobody on the Eggs thread, which is where I’ve mostly been. For people who wanna see a lil bit of chat about Eggs take a look at https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/804654-eggs?page=1 . The 3rd Page is the one that we actually start talking about Bolas’ Citadel though.
Thanks guys! : D
3 Watery Grave
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Serum Powder
4 Reshape
4 Bolas's Citadel
3 Aetherflux Reservoir
2 Ghoulcaller's Bell
4 Chromatic Star
4 Codex Shredder
4 Conjurer's Bauble
4 Lotus Bloom
4 Mox Opal
4 Astral Cornucopia
4 Everflowing Chalice
4 Coretapper
With 11 lands and tons of redraw/shuffle, it's highly improbable that any fizzling will happen once Bolas's Citadel is on the board. The dice factory mana (cornucopia, chalice, coretapper) is both explosive in the early game and important during the combo as it amounts to free mana and free spell count. You need to set up the Aetherflux before you run out of life, so sometimes Reshape x=4 needs to be cast. Serum Powder, Mox opal, Reshape x=0 for Lotus Bloom, and the dice factory all profit mana when cast from library, while Chromatic Star and Conjurer's Bauble help put a Reshape from the top into the hand (and Shredder can nab from graveyard). Otherwise, during a combo, a Reshape on top will usually be x=0 for a Darksteel Citadel out of the library, to reduce the land count.
Fortunately, with Serum Powder and London mulligan, finding a Citadel or Reshape in an opening hand isn't too hard, you just need to mulligan liberally. Need to be careful with Serum Powder -- need 1 Aetherflux Reservoir in library, as well as 1 Bolas's Citadel, and probably 1 Watery Grave too.
Anyways, that's all I have for 0 games played versus opponents. The goldfishing is fun though.
Im glad someone else saw similar potential, I had posted the same thing a few posts ago and nobody commented.
Plus this deck simply cannot beat control. You're one spell pierce away from doing nothing at all.
I get what we're trying to do here, but what made a similar deck to this (KCI) good was it's resilience to hate. This has none. It's just another glass cannon like belcher.
What I'd be more interested in is a deck that can take advantage of a combo potential but can also play magic outside of disruption.
Now if we had access to something like Goblin Welder...that would be a completely different story...
I can support this idea, my own Citadel Eggs deck is running a 4x Whir of Invention / 2x Reshape split, and Improvising to fetch out a Bolas’ Citadel comes up more often than thought. Even Mid-Combo Whir isn’t a bad card to have, it costs more than Reshape but it doesn’t make much of a difference. And if you’ve got a Citadel in hand already then fetch out a Lotus Bloom at the end of the opponents turn.
Pyrite Spellbomb is still a card I use however, both as a Win-Con and a card I can fetch if I need to remove annoying creatures like Thalia, Guardian of Thraben.
Whir is great in Citadel Eggs because it can get both Lotus Bloom for a cool 3 mana and Bolas's Citadel by tapping enough artifacts. I don't have enough artifacts in my Citadel Dodge Yard Hate build to support Whir, though, especially since Pentad Prism ramps faster.
Also depending on how the deck is built. Things like Pentad Prism, Lotus Bloom and other various color filters help get BBB.
On another note, for people who are testing out their decks: What turn is your deck able to usually combo off and win? For me its turn 4 most of the time, sometimes later and sometimes earlier though. Also, how are people approaching their sideboards? I'm still a bit unsure if I'm utilizing mine properly, so I'm asking around for ideas
Disciple of the Vault is pretty win-more. Unlike Children of Korlis, it cannot gain you enough life to keep comboing off if you only find it late in the combo turn, and if you play it early, it immediately dies to removal as often as Children of Korlis does. It can't even Fog removal-light decks, unlike Children of Korlis. Fizzle with a Disciple and you haven't gained life (unlike fizzling with Aetherflux Reservoir or Children), so your opponent can often kill you before your next turn, unlike with Aetherflux/Children. The deck already wins with Aetherflux or Faith's Reward into Bolas's Citadel mass sacrificing; it doesn't need an additional win con. Even Aetherflux builds can win with Citadel cracks.
I find that Citadel Eggs tends to combo off on Turn 3-4 (maybe Turn 3.5), while my Citadel Dodge Yard Hate deck combos off closer to Turn 4.5 (with some Turn 3 wins and plenty of Turn 4 wins). Prudent use of life gain often means that Turn 4.5 is good enough against aggro, though.
As for the Urborg, ToY suggestion, it's actually a decent one, as it mana fixes (including for Pentad Prism) and lets you pay life to your fetchlands later and less often. I'm still experimenting with Blast Zone in the land flex slot to see how often it is anti-hate, though, and it cannot pay for Reshape for Lotus Bloom.
Or perhaps Golem's Heart, 2 mana but doesn't get hit by opponents creature removal. Can also be fetched out with Whir of Invention or Reshape.
sorry but explain to me why you can't play both? or even all three? multiple win conditions that play well together anyways seems to be the plan no? I'm not advocating for 4 of them, just the 1 of.
I suspect someone is a fan of Pyrite Spellbomb in Citadel Eggs, but Citadel Eggs needs as many slots as possible to synergize with Faith's Reward (I think we've yet to find a Citadel Eggs build that plays Scrap Trawler instead without losing all consistency). Citadel Eggs can play stuff like Serum Visions and Whir of Invention, but yeah, it needs a lot of cantrips and tutors (often cantrip rocks). Aetherflux Reservoir is a 4-mana brick if you start the combo with Faith's Reward instead of Bolas's Citadel, so no, it cannot fit in Citadel Eggs. Citadel Eggs's main source of life gain is Sunbeam Spellbomb instead.
As for my Citadel Dodge Yard Hate deck, Aetherflux Reservoir there is both massive mid-combo life gain and a win con. I need my other nonland slots there to be cantrips (often life gain cantrips), tutors, fast mana, or life gain, so I have no room for additional win cons. I suppose there's stuff like Jace, Wielder of Mysteries that are cantrip win cons, but sheesh, he's so expensive to cast. The Dragonlord Dromoka in my sideboard is meant to be an alt win con that dodges Unmoored Ego and anti-Storm cards, yet synergizes with the combo plan.
The Bolas's Citadel crack plan is already shaky in my Citadel Dodge Yard Hate deck; Ghirapur Aether Grid would be an even shakier plan (although it synergizes with cracking Citadels) because the deck doesn't play that many artifacts and wants to tap several of them with their own abilities. This is the kind of obstacle that additional win cons must face: even if they have utility outside the combo, they don't help me dig for it or sustain it by adding life.