@Cody_X - cards like azcanta and rev feel like they should be taking advantage of the ramp, and they do, to an extent, but it's really the tempo boost you get from being able to interact with the land that you spiral in on the same turn and the following turn that takes the most advantage of it; Being able to interact on turn 2 and ramp into a 4 drop on turn 3 is unbelievably backbreaking for the opponent. The more 1cmc spells you play the better Spiral gets. Currently the non-cantripping non-path 1cmc spells available to us might just be too conditional(oust, snare, dispel, pierce - would love to hear more suggestions), but if we ever get to a meta where those conditional 1cmc cards can occupy 4-6 slots in the main, this deck will be fantastic. It's possible the sideboard should be configured to reflect that, with the conditional 1cmc counterspells being featured more heavily than normal. Perhaps we should be considering Spiral in Temur, or Sultai to extend our range of playable 1's and 4's (T2 Spiral, drop land, bolt your threat, untap slam jace/bloodbraid?) Perhaps I will start a thread for that.
@rickster - I've got about 50 matches under my belt with the non-reclamation build and about 15 matches with reclamation, varying the count between 1 and 2 copies and in my experience the deck is infinitely better without it. The card is bad in this shell. It's a combo piece, plain and simple. Control wants to draw extra cards and trade x for 1 - reclamation does neither.
Yea I was thinking about bug too.
Not a ton of 1 drops, but ive been meaning to pick up trophies, and they could certainly help a more controlling build.
Giving up path/terminus is rough though, and 4 color might be too greedy.
Sultai could also give access to 1cmc discard as well as tasigur as a pseudo 1cmc if you ran thought scour.
Back to Bant - I'm going to try out something that is more tempo than control but there's like 50 cards overlap in the main with the other lists here so I think it belongs in this thread.
The idea was to include more 1cmc stuff, Spell Pierce specifically, and I figured one of the better cards to play with Pierce is Delver.
Delver should play well with Serum, Jace and Nissa and it I think it will work well with Spiral as well - you give up a Mana on turn 2 in order to diversify by playing higher end threats like planeswalkers a turn ahead of curve. Keep in mind that even with only 23 lands this deck consistently gets to 5 Mana on curve. So opponents should be kept off balance dealing with creature threats and planeswalker control-style endgames. Not sure if Spiral will be good enough to make Delver decent, it hasn't had any real modern success so far. So here's to hoping.
Also, Shoal should be great in this deck, the only non blue card is path and we can make up for the card disadvantage on multiple fronts - aggressive draws or protecting walkers.
Only played one match so far with it, against GW value, won 2-0. G1 was Delver into spiral plus serum into flipped delver and Jace which was pretty sweet. G2 I didn't flip my delvers and still handily won.
I think this deck wants the 3rd Cryptic pretty badly and I'll try to find room for it before testing anymore.
Convincing me this deck actually wants delver is gonna be an uphill battle. It doesn't really make a ton of sense, imo.
Playing more creatures (queller, geist, etc, seems pretty reasonable too, as it plays to green's strengths a lot more).
I do think you want atleast a copy or 2 of field of ruin though. Its pretty low-cost in general, and has reasonable targets against a lot of the top decks.
Yea, I'm definitely not sold on delver, it's just conceptual for now. I have my doubts, like I had my doubts about reclamation but I'll still test it.
Field of ruins is much higher cost than you are anticipating though. I'm confident you will come that conclusion after playing the deck enough. The opportunity cost of not being able to Spiral into interaction is too high - Spiral on 2 into interaction, turn 3 Jace on empty board or alternatively just hold up turn 3 cryptic for turn 4 teferi on empty board are game winning plays that are made impossible if any of your first 3 land drops are colorless.
Maybe, but spiral into interaction did not feel like a particularly "key" line to the deck. Sure, against aggressive decks its nice, but it didn't feel like that was what would make or break games.
Being unable to beat stuff like valakut, or emeria, or urza lands, or cavern of souls, or even having to spend real removal on manlands is, in my general modern experience, going to cost you just as many games as having a rando colorless land mucking around, if not more.
Maybe, but spiral into interaction did not feel like a particularly "key" line to the deck. Sure, against aggressive decks its nice, but it didn't feel like that was what would make or break games.
Being unable to beat stuff like valakut, or emeria, or urza lands, or cavern of souls, or even having to spend real removal on manlands is, in my general modern experience, going to cost you just as many games as having a rando colorless land mucking around, if not more.
After looking at your list again, it's not surprising to me that you feel like it's medium against aggro and bad against decks where field would be good; You don't play any 1cmc interaction outside of path and a single Snare. Path has always been medium against aggro and control has always been medium against ramp.
As I've been saying, you need 1cmc spells to take advantage of spiral. You mentioned yourself on your report that you didn't feel the deck could take advantage of spiral.
Try adding a couple spell pierce and various other 1cmc non-path non-cantrips to your list and get back at me on how you feel about the field of ruin match ups when you spiral t2 into pierce on a farseek/explore/stirrings/map into Jace on t3.
I haven't played many games with the deck, but it seemed like bant is awesome when it curves out, and a bad UW deck when it doesn't. The lack of field of ruin was noticeable, and makes me wonder if going the Burkheart grixis build style where you play 25 lands with 4x field of ruin is worth trying. Though with that build you had to aggressively fetch shocks, where as with bant you only need to do that once.
I also tested the reclamation version a tiny bit and I got to live the dream with azcanta, reclamation, and teferi. It seemed win more, but i have a small sample size.
Delver is interesting, though I think i'd want to pair that with lightning bolt, so temur? I also wouldn't play 5 check lands with delver, i'd play 1-2, and zero fast lands (which you correctly play zero) with jace and cryptic in the deck. I don't understand how the jeskai diehards play that one spirebluff. A higher curve flash deck could be interesting, but i'm guessing that's probably too clunky.
Temur doesn't seem like a good color combination. If i wanted to make temur work, i'd probably make it a tempo deck with goyf, and that's probably just a bad death shadow deck. Scapeshift is a turn 5 combo deck in a turn 3-4 format, it's just not playable unless people are playing kitchen finks decks (where anger of the gods is good) or rock decks (where you're not under a fast clock).
Hoogland had a sultai deck when trophy was spoiled, but it was super midrangey, and could never beat the linear decks. I don't think it's on his website, I think you can only find it on his youtube video. It could be worth revisiting.
I also posted about growth spiral in the 4c gifts thread. But people in that thread are stuck on trying to play lilianas. Trying to craft a more instant speed version, didn't really impress me just by looking at the list, as I think the mana is slightly too bad. And I also got a recent reminder why deathrite is still banned.
I feel like UW is the best control deck, and Grixis death shadow is the best midrange deck. It seems hard not to make an inferior version of those two decks. The bant versions posted in this thread are closer to UW, and it's getting more refined as more testing and more ideas come. I could see that if they print more 1 mana cards that bant could surpass UW.
I'm sure you're somewhat right that more 1 mana interaction will take advantage of spiral better, but spell pierce is inherently at odds with a deck trying to go into the long game, especially one with such little pressure.
I did cut a snare for an absorb last minute, but I think the problem is mainly that there simply aren't enough good 1cost interactive spells in the format that are worth playing in such a deck.
I could certainly be wrong, and it definitely is early, but I'm thinking that miracles splash growth spiral, and a curve that skews lower is not going to be a better deck than actual miracles.
My next attempt will probably be a lot more creature focused.
As I said above, delver and growth spiral don't seem like friends. The awkward part of spiral is that it encourages you to play your proactive cards on cmc 4, which means cards like geist, queller, or clique aren't maximizing that.
Green does add obstinate baloth, tracker, and others though.
@rickster - good call on the checklands, I kind of just ported my Mana base directly from the control version to the tempo version without considering it, and I should have. And tbh, I've never felt like the Mana was perfect anyways, I've never been particularly good at manabases.
@cody_x - yep, I agree about the lack of good 1cmc interaction. Well, we have good ones but they are just so conditional. I'm going to keep trying, but yea I think any reason to choose this style deck over UW or Jeskai in a major tournament would be dependent on a combination of spell snare/dispel/condemn/being in an abnormally good spot.
I also agree that spell pierce is at odds with the overall strategy, but I think spell pierce is in the best spot it's been in as long as I can remember right now and a couple conditional counters aren't the end of the world. Especially if you're always able to fire them off while executing a proactive plan, which spiral facilitates beautifully. A couple dead cards going late has never been the end of the world for UWx control decks, look how often Mana leak shows up and also think about how surprisingly often Mana leak still finds targets deep into a game.
Everytime I see Bant Control I have the following two questions:
a) Why should I play Bant above UW or Esper? Is Growth Sprial (aka the only reason to play Bant in your versions) really enough of an reason for a worse mana base?
b) Does Glittering Wish fit in the deck?
I have not played the deck, so I cannot answer those question, but just something to ponder about.
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
What in Bant, would we want as a 'wish package'? There are plenty of multi-colour cards, but I'm not sure there are a ton in bant that are premium sideboard material or hosers.
What in Bant, would we want as a 'wish package'? There are plenty of multi-colour cards, but I'm not sure there are a ton in bant that are premium sideboard material or hosers.
Sigarda, Wheel of Sun and Moon, Fracturing Gust, Supreme Verdict, Sundering Growth, Geist, Detention Sphere, Sphinx Rev, Knight of Autumn, Teferi, other multicolour PW,...
I would never play the playset, max 3 realistically. Also, I wouldn't put 10+ wish targets in the SB, just those who you really want (like Sigarda, Fracturung Gust, Verdict and Teferi). More often than not, even if you are only playing two Wish you should be able to find them relative fast so that you can go e.g. turn 3/4 Wish into turn 4/5 bomb, if the match-up demands it.
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
I played a glittering wish build of UW a while back, and you have a fair amount of reasonable options.
Geist, queller, detention sphere, rev, absorb, bant charm, fracturing gust, wheel of sun and moon, meddling mage, and finks are all pretty reasonable options that you might not normally play (especially mainboard) but being able to tutor for them is useful.
Cards like Teferi or verdict are also nice to have extra copies of.
I also played a variant that playing dramatic entrance mainboard and a progenitus in the board that could be wished for. It telegraphed the combo a little bit, but it made up for the fact that unlike breach + emrakul, you only had half the number of dead combo pieces in your deck (since wish could become a real card).
Interesting use of Wish as a combo enabler for the dramatic entrance. Similarly you could wish for thopter foundry which might be better since it's a more robust combo in that it isn't vulnerable to sweepers. As well as Sword of the meek not being a dead card if you run snaps or various other creatures whereas Dramatic entrance is dead until you actually combo off. Also doesn't require double green, which is only a minor concern really, but still.
Sword of the meek is barely "alive" without the combo, but yea, you could do that too.
I sometimes played a second finisher in the board next to proggy, sometimes an empyrial archangel, sometimes a dragonlord dromoka. If you were worried about sweepers (usually you'd just get a sideboard planeswalker instead of the creature) you could play ruric thar or something, but just getting teferi seems perfectly reasonable. If the opponent doesn't know whats up, you can potentially cast an end step dramatic entrance (with nothing in hand) and bait them to tap out to let you resolve a walker.
I wonder if there's a way you could utilize the fact that Glittering Wish takes away your dedicated sideboard slots. I've often put powerful stand alone cards like Jace in the sideboards of combo decks. Since stand alone stuff like teferi, verdict, sphere, Queller, absorb etc it would be easier to make a transformational SB for a combo control, whether it he Thop/Sword or Entrance/prog or whatever.
I think the only times the sideboard is going to be a massive liability are matches where you need to take out the combo and most of your removal, can't think of any matches like that off the top of my head, but I'm sure they exist.
Not sure that Spiral is at its best here since there's little to no 1cmc interaction or if it even makes sense, but it's been great in bant control, so maybe.
P sure this wants to be a wargate deck, not whir.
I also don't think SSS is worthwhile. I assume you're just looking for sword of the meek synergy, but I don't think its really worth it.
Now that I think about it though, wargate + glittering wish with 1 copy of Sword of the meek and 0-1 foundry main, and 1 foundry in the board could be pretty decent. Its such a low amount of space for the combo, since wargate can get azcanta, snap, clique, walkers, lands, etc. Maybe there are other permanents you would play, or maybe not. (Crucible? Other creatures? Wilderness reclamation? Its goodish with thopter combo. Wargating for it is 7 mana tho, so maybe its too winmore).
Idk, something to think about here. Maybe I'll try messing with this. Unfortunately only have 2 copies of wargate, but maybe you don't want more.
You are correct sir, Wargate is waaaay better than Whir in this list. I guess I thought of Whir because I've tried a shell like this in just UW previously, obviously didnt have access to wargate. I don't think you want more than 2 copies, and the correct number is probably 1. Although I think you need at least 2 copies of Sword of The Meek because if it gets exiled (thought knot) you don't have access to the combo anymore. If you play 0 Foundry in the main, that isn't a huge deal I guess though.
I have played 3 matches with the above list so far and will be making some changes going forward because of it, and because of the recommendation of wargate. The 3 matches were UW Control, RGB Living End and Bant Eldrazi. Didn't drop a game.
The changes are as follows: Logic Knot out because opponent brings gravehate g2, Terminus Out because Thopter combo beats creature decks anyways and 1 Thirst for knowledge out because they are very mediocre when you dont have anything to discard to it.
Also, Spellstutter Sprite was clutch against faerie macabre in the RGB match.
Edit** I think Field of Ruin would be good in a version like this with little to no 1cmc interaction since it gives wargate a bit more flexibility; this kind of list isn't maximizing the Spiral into interaction into Jace since there are less Jace and less interaction
Second edit*** the SSS synergy is strong, not for getting a 2/3 flyer at instant speed but because with no artifacts outside of the combo there isn't actually a way to get the loop started unless you have both pieces in play. So basically I think you either need to play some number of other artifacts or some number of 1/1 creatures. Could be secure the wastes, or timely reinforcements too I guess.
I think thats a problem caused by thirst. You wouldnt otherwise discard the sword.
Otherwise, hard to imagine secure the wastes or something (march of the multitudes?)isnt better.
Sprite is just such a polarized card without playing any other faeries. Its either insane or dead, but Id rather have amore consistent card (leak, knot, negate) in my control deck mainboard.
Yea, that's fair, secure is probably better and I don't think I want Thirst anyways - thirst was to enable Azcanta a bit, but I want to minimize the number of graveyard focused cards for postboard games anyways so Azcanta might not make the cut regardless. Almost every postboard game I've played so far has had my opponent on dead or low impact cards (leyline of the void, rest in peace, relic of Progenitus).
I've been pretty excited about this list actually been working on it all morning and I think this could be a 1-of gifts ungiven list if you include a card like Snapcaster or Mission Briefing as well. I know I just finished saying that I wanted to minimize on the GY cards, but I think those cards are powerful enough on their own to warrant wasting a slot on.
Yea, that's fair, secure is probably better and I don't think I want Thirst anyways - thirst was to enable Azcanta a bit, but I want to minimize the number of graveyard focused cards for postboard games anyways so Azcanta might not make the cut regardless. Almost every postboard game I've played so far has had my opponent on dead or low impact cards (leyline of the void, rest in peace, relic of Progenitus).
I've been pretty excited about this list actually been working on it all morning and I think this could be a 1-of gifts ungiven list if you include a card like Snapcaster or Mission Briefing as well. I know I just finished saying that I wanted to minimize on the GY cards, but I think those cards are powerful enough on their own to warrant wasting a slot on.
What is it about wargate that puts you off? Sorcery speed is a bit of a bummer when compared to Whir, as is the additional mana cost that whir would be reduced by if you already had 1 half of the combo out, but the added flexibility of being a ramp spell that finds Field of Ruin in addition to being able to find a Sphere, walker, snapcaster, clique or SB cards like RIP should make up for it I think. It's also nice because you don't have to cut it post board when you side out the combo.
It's actually possible (though I think not likely) that a wargate belongs in the side as a Wish target; allowing you to tutor up a snapcaster mage with a glittering wish if you desperatly need a Timely Reinforcements flashback or a field of ruin to hit an Azcanta that could run away with the game or something. Probably getting too cute, but certainly something to think about.
I also posted about growth spiral in the 4c gifts thread. But people in that thread are stuck on trying to play lilianas. Trying to craft a more instant speed version, didn't really impress me just by looking at the list, as I think the mana is slightly too bad. And I also got a recent reminder why deathrite is still banned.
Indeed, but this is because I feel that LotV is one of the major components of the deck, doing multiple things 4C Gifts needs at the same time. Maybe if one drops the heavy requirement on B and skips on the turn 1 discard one could make Growth Spiral kinda work. Instead I would lean towards more counter magic (that is, counter magic at all) in Logic Knot and possibly Negate/Mana Leak. Together with Gifts and the package one would however need another discard outlet, such as Radical Idea which makes a decent impression in a Gifts Pile as well. But all that strictly belongs to another thread...
The last list that was posted here kinda drew my attention, Thopter/Sword together with Glittering Wish, Gifts Ungiven and most of the UW package indeed looks pretty nice on paper, definitely something I will try in the future. A Wish toolbox for Wargate into another toolbox however is something I do not quite see working in a broad field. Unfortunately, Wheel of Sun and Moon as a wish target also does not make the cut when it comes to GY hate, I tried running it in some matches with Gifts decks and it keeps being too slow, not exiling what's already in the GY really is an issue generally.
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@rickster - I've got about 50 matches under my belt with the non-reclamation build and about 15 matches with reclamation, varying the count between 1 and 2 copies and in my experience the deck is infinitely better without it. The card is bad in this shell. It's a combo piece, plain and simple. Control wants to draw extra cards and trade x for 1 - reclamation does neither.
Not a ton of 1 drops, but ive been meaning to pick up trophies, and they could certainly help a more controlling build.
Giving up path/terminus is rough though, and 4 color might be too greedy.
Back to Bant - I'm going to try out something that is more tempo than control but there's like 50 cards overlap in the main with the other lists here so I think it belongs in this thread.
The idea was to include more 1cmc stuff, Spell Pierce specifically, and I figured one of the better cards to play with Pierce is Delver.
Delver should play well with Serum, Jace and Nissa and it I think it will work well with Spiral as well - you give up a Mana on turn 2 in order to diversify by playing higher end threats like planeswalkers a turn ahead of curve. Keep in mind that even with only 23 lands this deck consistently gets to 5 Mana on curve. So opponents should be kept off balance dealing with creature threats and planeswalker control-style endgames. Not sure if Spiral will be good enough to make Delver decent, it hasn't had any real modern success so far. So here's to hoping.
Also, Shoal should be great in this deck, the only non blue card is path and we can make up for the card disadvantage on multiple fronts - aggressive draws or protecting walkers.
4 Serum Visions
4 growth spiral
Planeswalker (5)
3 jace the mindsculptor
1 Nissa, Steward of elements
1 Teferi, hero of dominaria
Creatures (11)
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Spell Queller
3 snapcaster mage
4 Delver
Interaction (13)
4 Path to Exile
3 Spell Pierce
2 Logic Knot
2 cryptic command
2 Disrupting Shoal
2 colonnade
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Breeding Pool
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 forest
2 Plains
3 island
3 Hinterland Harbour
2 Glacial Fortress
2 Dispel
2 Spell Snare
2 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Surgical Extraction
3 kitchen finks
2 Condemn
2 Celestial Purge
Only played one match so far with it, against GW value, won 2-0. G1 was Delver into spiral plus serum into flipped delver and Jace which was pretty sweet. G2 I didn't flip my delvers and still handily won.
I think this deck wants the 3rd Cryptic pretty badly and I'll try to find room for it before testing anymore.
What do you guys think?
Playing more creatures (queller, geist, etc, seems pretty reasonable too, as it plays to green's strengths a lot more).
I do think you want atleast a copy or 2 of field of ruin though. Its pretty low-cost in general, and has reasonable targets against a lot of the top decks.
Spirits
Field of ruins is much higher cost than you are anticipating though. I'm confident you will come that conclusion after playing the deck enough. The opportunity cost of not being able to Spiral into interaction is too high - Spiral on 2 into interaction, turn 3 Jace on empty board or alternatively just hold up turn 3 cryptic for turn 4 teferi on empty board are game winning plays that are made impossible if any of your first 3 land drops are colorless.
Being unable to beat stuff like valakut, or emeria, or urza lands, or cavern of souls, or even having to spend real removal on manlands is, in my general modern experience, going to cost you just as many games as having a rando colorless land mucking around, if not more.
After looking at your list again, it's not surprising to me that you feel like it's medium against aggro and bad against decks where field would be good; You don't play any 1cmc interaction outside of path and a single Snare. Path has always been medium against aggro and control has always been medium against ramp.
As I've been saying, you need 1cmc spells to take advantage of spiral. You mentioned yourself on your report that you didn't feel the deck could take advantage of spiral.
Try adding a couple spell pierce and various other 1cmc non-path non-cantrips to your list and get back at me on how you feel about the field of ruin match ups when you spiral t2 into pierce on a farseek/explore/stirrings/map into Jace on t3.
I also tested the reclamation version a tiny bit and I got to live the dream with azcanta, reclamation, and teferi. It seemed win more, but i have a small sample size.
Delver is interesting, though I think i'd want to pair that with lightning bolt, so temur? I also wouldn't play 5 check lands with delver, i'd play 1-2, and zero fast lands (which you correctly play zero) with jace and cryptic in the deck. I don't understand how the jeskai diehards play that one spirebluff. A higher curve flash deck could be interesting, but i'm guessing that's probably too clunky.
Temur doesn't seem like a good color combination. If i wanted to make temur work, i'd probably make it a tempo deck with goyf, and that's probably just a bad death shadow deck. Scapeshift is a turn 5 combo deck in a turn 3-4 format, it's just not playable unless people are playing kitchen finks decks (where anger of the gods is good) or rock decks (where you're not under a fast clock).
Hoogland had a sultai deck when trophy was spoiled, but it was super midrangey, and could never beat the linear decks. I don't think it's on his website, I think you can only find it on his youtube video. It could be worth revisiting.
I also posted about growth spiral in the 4c gifts thread. But people in that thread are stuck on trying to play lilianas. Trying to craft a more instant speed version, didn't really impress me just by looking at the list, as I think the mana is slightly too bad. And I also got a recent reminder why deathrite is still banned.
I feel like UW is the best control deck, and Grixis death shadow is the best midrange deck. It seems hard not to make an inferior version of those two decks. The bant versions posted in this thread are closer to UW, and it's getting more refined as more testing and more ideas come. I could see that if they print more 1 mana cards that bant could surpass UW.
I did cut a snare for an absorb last minute, but I think the problem is mainly that there simply aren't enough good 1cost interactive spells in the format that are worth playing in such a deck.
I could certainly be wrong, and it definitely is early, but I'm thinking that miracles splash growth spiral, and a curve that skews lower is not going to be a better deck than actual miracles.
My next attempt will probably be a lot more creature focused.
As I said above, delver and growth spiral don't seem like friends. The awkward part of spiral is that it encourages you to play your proactive cards on cmc 4, which means cards like geist, queller, or clique aren't maximizing that.
Green does add obstinate baloth, tracker, and others though.
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-modern-constructed-league-2019-01-29
A user named "FTZZ" played a pretty nifty bug teachings deck with reclamation + spiral that I'll probably try out too.
@cody_x - yep, I agree about the lack of good 1cmc interaction. Well, we have good ones but they are just so conditional. I'm going to keep trying, but yea I think any reason to choose this style deck over UW or Jeskai in a major tournament would be dependent on a combination of spell snare/dispel/condemn/being in an abnormally good spot.
I also agree that spell pierce is at odds with the overall strategy, but I think spell pierce is in the best spot it's been in as long as I can remember right now and a couple conditional counters aren't the end of the world. Especially if you're always able to fire them off while executing a proactive plan, which spiral facilitates beautifully. A couple dead cards going late has never been the end of the world for UWx control decks, look how often Mana leak shows up and also think about how surprisingly often Mana leak still finds targets deep into a game.
a) Why should I play Bant above UW or Esper? Is Growth Sprial (aka the only reason to play Bant in your versions) really enough of an reason for a worse mana base?
b) Does Glittering Wish fit in the deck?
I have not played the deck, so I cannot answer those question, but just something to ponder about.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Spirits
I would never play the playset, max 3 realistically. Also, I wouldn't put 10+ wish targets in the SB, just those who you really want (like Sigarda, Fracturung Gust, Verdict and Teferi). More often than not, even if you are only playing two Wish you should be able to find them relative fast so that you can go e.g. turn 3/4 Wish into turn 4/5 bomb, if the match-up demands it.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Geist, queller, detention sphere, rev, absorb, bant charm, fracturing gust, wheel of sun and moon, meddling mage, and finks are all pretty reasonable options that you might not normally play (especially mainboard) but being able to tutor for them is useful.
Cards like Teferi or verdict are also nice to have extra copies of.
I also played a variant that playing dramatic entrance mainboard and a progenitus in the board that could be wished for. It telegraphed the combo a little bit, but it made up for the fact that unlike breach + emrakul, you only had half the number of dead combo pieces in your deck (since wish could become a real card).
I sometimes played a second finisher in the board next to proggy, sometimes an empyrial archangel, sometimes a dragonlord dromoka. If you were worried about sweepers (usually you'd just get a sideboard planeswalker instead of the creature) you could play ruric thar or something, but just getting teferi seems perfectly reasonable. If the opponent doesn't know whats up, you can potentially cast an end step dramatic entrance (with nothing in hand) and bait them to tap out to let you resolve a walker.
Rough sketch up
Consistency (13)
4 Serum Visions
1 Search for Azcanta
4 growth spiral
2 thirst for knowledge
2 Glittering Wish
Combo 4
2 sword of the meek
1 thopter foundry
1 Whir of Invention
3 SpellStutter Sprite
1 vendilion clique
Removal (8)
4 Path to Exile
4 Terminus
Countermagic (5)
2 Logic Knot
3 cryptic command
Planeswalkers (3)
2 jace the mindsculptor
1 teferi, hero of dominaria
1 Thopter Foundry
1 Teferi
1 detention sphere
1 supreme verdict
1 absorb
2 spell Queller
1 wheel of sun and moon
1 kitchen finks
1 Knight of autumn
1 vendilion clique
1 dispel
1 surgical extraction
1 Celestial Purge
1 timely reinforcements
I think the only times the sideboard is going to be a massive liability are matches where you need to take out the combo and most of your removal, can't think of any matches like that off the top of my head, but I'm sure they exist.
Not sure that Spiral is at its best here since there's little to no 1cmc interaction or if it even makes sense, but it's been great in bant control, so maybe.
I also don't think SSS is worthwhile. I assume you're just looking for sword of the meek synergy, but I don't think its really worth it.
Now that I think about it though, wargate + glittering wish with 1 copy of Sword of the meek and 0-1 foundry main, and 1 foundry in the board could be pretty decent. Its such a low amount of space for the combo, since wargate can get azcanta, snap, clique, walkers, lands, etc. Maybe there are other permanents you would play, or maybe not. (Crucible? Other creatures? Wilderness reclamation? Its goodish with thopter combo. Wargating for it is 7 mana tho, so maybe its too winmore).
Idk, something to think about here. Maybe I'll try messing with this. Unfortunately only have 2 copies of wargate, but maybe you don't want more.
I have played 3 matches with the above list so far and will be making some changes going forward because of it, and because of the recommendation of wargate. The 3 matches were UW Control, RGB Living End and Bant Eldrazi. Didn't drop a game.
The changes are as follows: Logic Knot out because opponent brings gravehate g2, Terminus Out because Thopter combo beats creature decks anyways and 1 Thirst for knowledge out because they are very mediocre when you dont have anything to discard to it.
Also, Spellstutter Sprite was clutch against faerie macabre in the RGB match.
Here's the new list:
3 colonnade
4 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Breeding Pool
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 forest
2 Plains
4 island
3 Hinterland Harbour
1 Glacial Fortress
Consistency (13)
4 Serum Visions
2 Search for Azcanta
4 growth spiral
1 thirst for knowledge
2 Glittering Wish
3 sword of the meek
1 thopter foundry
1 Wargate
Creatures (3)
3 SpellStutter Sprite
Removal (6)
4 Path to Exile
2 Condemn
Countermagic (7)
2 Spell Pierce
1 Mana Leak
1 Negate
3 cryptic command
Planeswalkers (3)
2 jace the mindsculptor
1 teferi, hero of dominaria
1 Thopter Foundry
1 Teferi
1 detention sphere
1 supreme verdict
1 absorb
1 spell Queller
1 wheel of sun and moon
1 kitchen finks
1 Knight of autumn
2 vendilion clique
1 dispel
1 surgical extraction
1 Celestial Purge
1 timely reinforcements
Edit** I think Field of Ruin would be good in a version like this with little to no 1cmc interaction since it gives wargate a bit more flexibility; this kind of list isn't maximizing the Spiral into interaction into Jace since there are less Jace and less interaction
Second edit*** the SSS synergy is strong, not for getting a 2/3 flyer at instant speed but because with no artifacts outside of the combo there isn't actually a way to get the loop started unless you have both pieces in play. So basically I think you either need to play some number of other artifacts or some number of 1/1 creatures. Could be secure the wastes, or timely reinforcements too I guess.
Otherwise, hard to imagine secure the wastes or something (march of the multitudes?)isnt better.
Sprite is just such a polarized card without playing any other faeries. Its either insane or dead, but Id rather have amore consistent card (leak, knot, negate) in my control deck mainboard.
I've been pretty excited about this list actually been working on it all morning and I think this could be a 1-of gifts ungiven list if you include a card like Snapcaster or Mission Briefing as well. I know I just finished saying that I wanted to minimize on the GY cards, but I think those cards are powerful enough on their own to warrant wasting a slot on.
Something like this:
2 colonnade
2 Field of Ruin
Consistency (12)
4 Serum Visions
4 growth spiral
1 Glittering Wish
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Wargate
1 gifts ungiven
Combo (3)
2 sword of the meek
1 thopter foundry
Creature sources (3)
1 Secure the Wastes
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Timely Reinforcements
4 Path to Exile
1 Oust
1 condemn
1 Detention Sphere
Countermagic (8)
3 Spell Pierce
1 Mana Leak
1 Remand
3 cryptic command
Planeswalkers (4)
3 jace the mindsculptor
1 teferi, hero of dominaria
1 Teferi
1 supreme verdict
1 absorb
1 Thopter Foundry
1 kitchen finks
1 Knight of autumn
1 Spell Queller
1 vendilion clique
1 dispel
1 surgical extraction
1 Celestial Purge
1 timely reinforcements
1 Negate
2 Rest in Peace
This is a list I could get behind. Not convinced on Wargate at all tho TBH.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
It's actually possible (though I think not likely) that a wargate belongs in the side as a Wish target; allowing you to tutor up a snapcaster mage with a glittering wish if you desperatly need a Timely Reinforcements flashback or a field of ruin to hit an Azcanta that could run away with the game or something. Probably getting too cute, but certainly something to think about.
Indeed, but this is because I feel that LotV is one of the major components of the deck, doing multiple things 4C Gifts needs at the same time. Maybe if one drops the heavy requirement on B and skips on the turn 1 discard one could make Growth Spiral kinda work. Instead I would lean towards more counter magic (that is, counter magic at all) in Logic Knot and possibly Negate/Mana Leak. Together with Gifts and the package one would however need another discard outlet, such as Radical Idea which makes a decent impression in a Gifts Pile as well. But all that strictly belongs to another thread...
The last list that was posted here kinda drew my attention, Thopter/Sword together with Glittering Wish, Gifts Ungiven and most of the UW package indeed looks pretty nice on paper, definitely something I will try in the future. A Wish toolbox for Wargate into another toolbox however is something I do not quite see working in a broad field. Unfortunately, Wheel of Sun and Moon as a wish target also does not make the cut when it comes to GY hate, I tried running it in some matches with Gifts decks and it keeps being too slow, not exiling what's already in the GY really is an issue generally.