I'm not a big fan of the Traverse package, it only gets Snaps and Emrakul, and that doesn't seem like it's doing enough. Plus, how will you get 4 card types if you don't draw a STE?
So we got a bunch of goodies from modern horizons! The most notable for us, imo, is fact or fiction and Force of Negation. Both of these cards play right into the strengths of a Growth Spiral control deck - We want to cast powerful turn 4 cards on turn 3. Force makes protecting a Turn 3 Jace even easier than before and Fact or Fiction is another strong 4 drop. We also get Waterlogged Grove, which seems like a strong addition to the deck in small numbers and finally, we might play a couple copies of Ice-Fang Coatl - if Fblthp, the Lost is good enough in UW for Hall of Famer Gabriel Nassif, then Ice-Fang Coatl should be a shoe in.
I haven't tested it yet, but my initial thoughts might be that 3 Force and 2 Spell Pierce might be too heavy on "negate" effects - however, decks that aren't weak to negate effects aren't going to be great against all of the removal in the deck and we really want to be able to take advantage of the tempo these spells give us, especially Force of when Pierce gets played on turn 2 off of a spiral.
@jayjay I agree that this is looking pretty good, but I have a few points. Firstly, why play any Spell Pierce at all? 4 Forces, no pierce suits my purposes much better. Secondly, with Hoogark Vine on the prowl, I think you want access to Terminus -- especially if you are able to force the Altar. I don't like the Pulse of Murasa much, and I think you could trim a Snapcaster for the 4th Coatl.
Another thing to consider is Teferi, Time Raveler, since he forces a trade with Coatl by stopping their removal while also being able to bounce Coatl for value. He also plays well with Oust, but I think On Thin Ice is likely better anyways since you're only playing 2 Fields. Maybe with Coatls, you shouldn't be playing anything other than 4 Paths tho.
If you decided to go the Astrolabe route then the 4th coatl might be ok - I feel like the deathtouch on Coatl isn't going to be turned on that often as is though, and even the 3rd Coatl might be a bit underwhelming without Astrolabe - it's just a flying elvish visionary.
The interesting thing about Astrolabe though, is that it can alleviate some of the downside of playing field of ruin in a 3 color deck that potentially wants UG+UorW on turn 3. It sounds pretty good in theory, just a little hard to find the space.
On Thin Ice has underperformed for me in UW - having to fetch basic plains on turn 1 to deal with a mana dork is awful, and I've been blown out by having On Thin Ice bounced/destroyed far more often than I care for. Pair all of that with the fact that Misty rainforest can't cast OTI on turn 1 and Oust is probably the better card. Often the downside of Oust is a hidden upside as well - forcing them to redraw a slow creature or gaining life by returning one of my own creatures.
Raveler is an excellent card, I can't see myself making a final list without at least 1 copy, same with Narset really. This list is just a mock up. I also think you could be right about Pierce/Force.
I'm not sure I'll miss the 2cmc counters - Spiral and Coatl give us lots of proactive 2cmc plays and the Veto slot has been taken by Force. It's really just a mix of Logic Knot and Mana Leak occupying 2 slots there - Knot probably being the better of the two in a 8 fetch deck - but the list seems pretty tight. What would you suggest cutting for them?
Ice-Fang Coatl doesn't seem worth it as it will very rarely have deathtouch, I'd rather play Remand as a tempo cantrip (and it works better as more targets for Snapcaster).
If you want to play more proactive creatures then Vendilion Clique and Spell Queller are still better options imho.
Prohibit seems like an interesting counterspell to try as well since it has applications both early and late in the game.
I'd play it over Spell Snare and Spell Pierce, in the worst case you can just pitch it to Force of Negation anyway.
After playing the deck a lot now over the past few days I can confidently say that Ice-Fang is definitely worth it. My question is just whether you want 3 or 4. Even when it doesn't have deathtouch, it provides an effect that bant control wants - drawing cards and providing tempo. The addition of being able to pressure opposing Narsets is also very handy in control mirrors. When you draw it late, deathtouch is always turned on which is nice. I've messed around with the mana base a little to include a pair of ETB tapped snow-duals (can't fetch them though) just to have Deathtouch more frequently.
Here's the list I'm currently on and it feels very consistent and strong:
I gave up the Field of Ruins, as Growth Spiral demands a lot of colored mana if you want to be be able to Spiral into a Spell on turn 2. I think if you want field of ruin, you could probably drop the 2 snow-duals for a single field and a misty rainforest. If you went that route I would suggest dropping Coatl number 4 for a Heiroglyphic illumination.
The other thing of note was dropping the sweepers altogether - if you can consistently turn on Coatl, verdict is not necessary.
I've been happy with the 5 "negate" effects of 3 force, 2 pierce - Its a control deck, so creature spells don't bother me a whole lot.
Mirror match feels good. Only played against Hogaak once, and he died to his deck not functioning properly so I can't really speak on the matchup, I don't see it being a whole lot different than UW. Tron is probably a lot differen't with no field of Ruin, but my experience with growth spiral decks in the past has been that the matchup is good despite low numbers of field of ruin (ran 1-2 copies in the past) - they just have such a hard time beating an early jace if you have any disruption at all. Now with force of negation, I dont see this matchup being too hard.
After playing the deck a lot now over the past few days I can confidently say that Ice-Fang is definitely worth it. My question is just whether you want 3 or 4. Even when it doesn't have deathtouch, it provides an effect that bant control wants - drawing cards and providing tempo. The addition of being able to pressure opposing Narsets is also very handy in control mirrors. When you draw it late, deathtouch is always turned on which is nice. I've messed around with the mana base a little to include a pair of ETB tapped snow-duals (can't fetch them though) just to have Deathtouch more frequently.
Here's the list I'm currently on and it feels very consistent and strong:
I gave up the Field of Ruins, as Growth Spiral demands a lot of colored mana if you want to be be able to Spiral into a Spell on turn 2. I think if you want field of ruin, you could probably drop the 2 snow-duals for a single field and a misty rainforest. If you went that route I would suggest dropping Coatl number 4 for a Heiroglyphic illumination.
The other thing of note was dropping the sweepers altogether - if you can consistently turn on Coatl, verdict is not necessary.
I've been happy with the 5 "negate" effects of 3 force, 2 pierce - Its a control deck, so creature spells don't bother me a whole lot.
Mirror match feels good. Only played against Hogaak once, and he died to his deck not functioning properly so I can't really speak on the matchup, I don't see it being a whole lot different than UW. Tron is probably a lot differen't with no field of Ruin, but my experience with growth spiral decks in the past has been that the matchup is good despite low numbers of field of ruin (ran 1-2 copies in the past) - they just have such a hard time beating an early jace if you have any disruption at all. Now with force of negation, I dont see this matchup being too hard.
BGx is great - UWx has only really had issues with ramping them too quickly when they had an early Bob + lilly. This is mitigate a bit by Spiral Growth because we can still interact while ramping; you dont have to fear pathing the Bob. Just have to watch out for Fulminator, like alway, but extra fetches help with that as well.
I also run a pair of snare, which helps a lot in this matchup.
I like the looks of the latest list. That said, it seems way too soft against go-wide strategies, and there is ‘too much air’. Is Fact or Fiction really necessary? You definitely need some sort of sweeper maindeck. Engineered Explosives could be a good addiction. I don’t dislike the fourth Snap either, given the amount of cheap spells in it.
Is into the north too wild?
Its a sorcery over growth spiral's instant speed, but it never whiffs. It does not draw a card either unfortunately, but it is easier to cast, and it does find the snow duals.
I agree with your choice of sweepers. Verdict was pretty hard to cast which is why I cut it from the last list. I should probably choose not to have it in the sideboard either. Maybe an EE instead.
I think you could make a case for terminus as well since it plays nice with spiral growth and Jace.
Rampant growth effects are fine but I don't think into the north is needed - there's lots to do on turn 2 already. Growth spiral is unique because it's instant, draws a card and potentially puts the land in untapped. Being untapped is a huge tempo swing when you turn 2 spiral into interaction (pierce, snare, path).
Yea thats fair. I do worry about how often you're able to hit land drops with only 22 (I only count 21 in the decklist of 59 cards so i assume the missing one is a land) especially into teferi. You have a fair amount of cantrips, but still.
Yea thats fair. I do worry about how often you're able to hit land drops with only 22 (I only count 21 in the decklist of 59 cards so i assume the missing one is a land) especially into teferi. You have a fair amount of cantrips, but still.
Good eye, 22nd land was a breeding pool. Brings the U to 19 and the G to 12 for cryptic and the UG two drops.
I do occasionally miss on the Spiral, but not usually until 4+ mana. The deck is very cantrip heavy so if you go to many lands you flood like crazy. This was one of the biggest reasons why I was so excited about Waterlogged Grove.
I often have to shock myself on turn 1 in order to Opt into land 3, but it's a small price to pay. Additionally, if you don't have land 3 you can just Coatl or Opt instead of Growth because they give you either a) a better chance to find land 3 with opt or b)progress the board state with Coatl. I wouldn't cast Growth on turn 2 if I didn't have the land already if I had either of those other options.
In my testing so far 22 has felt a tiny bit light on lands and 23 has felt a tiny bit heavy. Need a bigger sample size.
So I couldn't get the mana to agree with the Growth Spiral plan - same thing happened when Growth Spiral was first printed. Either you have too many cantrips and you end up flooding or you don't have enough lands to consistently hit your land drops. You also end up needing to skew your mana base away from Field of Ruin altogether which really sucks, and you're incentivized to avoid 3 drops, of which there are plenty of strong ones in this color combo. It also incentivized playing additional 1 drops, like snare and spell pierce, which are not necessarily where UWx want to be.
However, as I tested and tweaked I realized how powerful Waterlogged Grove is. I tried normal UW, just replaced 2 Field and 2 Colonnade for 4 Waterlogged Grove and it was actually good. You just need to make sure you run Timely Reinforcements to make up for the lifeloss. Since I already had 4 green sources in the deck I wanted to try to make bant work again because I was missing Coatl.
Based on some of the suggestions here, I slowly added more and more Winds of Abandon until I was off all other sweepers and eventually cut down to 3 Path. Here's the List
A couple growth Spirals help turn Winds of Abandon into a real sweeper. Because of the high number of removal spells in the deck (PTE, Coatl and WInds) and the SB creatures pulling double duty against control and creature decks, you don't need a lot of space in the sideboard for removal - 1 PTE and 1 more coatl. The sideboard is obviously heavily skewed towards Hogaak.
Growth spiral incentives you to cut your cantrips for real lands, which is sometimes a worthy tradeoff, but not always. You aren't playing asttrolabe, but for those who are, you can't just cut it for more lands.
Trying to cast 5 drops in a 24 land deck with 4 canopies seems heavy IMO.
I'd probably cap out on 2 / 24.
Steve or farseek probably better than into the north, but I would consider playing Search for Tomorrow over either if you feel the need for extra ramp. Comes out on turn one, jams you to fact or cryptic early on 3 without tapping out on two.
First thing first, I don’t believe that anything less than four Path to Exile is right. There are too many spots where your opponent is on the play and you are forced to deal with its play immediately. And six removal overall, even with Coatl, is definitely too much on the low side of the spectrum.
I can definitely understand the point on Growth Spiral. I don’t even like the card. The point of splashing green, imho, should be Ice-Fang Coatl. What I would be interested in is, in fact, a Restoration Angel build that complements it.
I don't think I would run any other ramp in the deck other than Spiral; those other ramp spells are just dead cards going late and being sorcery speed is not great in a reactive deck.
I don't agree with it being a 'bad' UW control deck. I think it has the potential to be a better UW control deck; Coatl and Waterlogged Grove are excellent cards for the archetype.
If it turns out to be a bad UW control deck, it would be because Field of Ruin is better than Waterlogged Grove or that 7 fetch lands is much worse than 5. I'm not convinced of either of those things.
don't agree with it being a 'bad' UW control deck. I think it has the potential to be a better UW control deck; Coatl and Waterlogged Grove are excellent cards for the archetype.
That’s why I think you should focus on their power. Resto Angel configurations are the best way to build this kind of decks since... forever. Instead of crappy Wall of Omens we get a real card, finally. I also believe you are overestimating cycle lands in this archetype. Control always want to make landrops until the very late game. These things also deal damage to you, which is the opposite a Control deck wants to be at. 2-3 are fine, the full set is definitely overdoing.
Another reason for running 4x Waterlogged Grove is also because the deck is thirsty for U/G duals, before MH1 I was running 3 Hinterland Harbour.
It could be correct to run a different dual over the 3rd and/or 4th grove (hintetland, Misty, prismatic Vista etc), but they have just been performing so well and flooding seems to be way more of a common problem for me than running out of life points because of painful Mana.
On another note, I think prismatic Vista should occupy some slots over Misty rainforest if you plan on using creatures with white in the cost and you don't want to play Temple garden, like resto. Ive been fiddling with a couple resto in the side and a couple times I had already fetched my hallowed fountain on a turn when I wanted to cast both resto and either a path or a tef3 in the same turn and it it was ugly. Because of running 2 plains and only 1 hallowed, Vista is probably better.
First thing first, I don’t believe that anything less than four Path to Exile is right. There are too many spots where your opponent is on the play and you are forced to deal with its play immediately. And six removal overall, even with Coatl, is definitely too much on the low side of the spectrum.
I can definitely understand the point on Growth Spiral. I don’t even like the card. The point of splashing green, imho, should be Ice-Fang Coatl. What I would be interested in is, in fact, a Restoration Angel build that complements it.
How can you not get overwhelmed by creatures without sweepers in the deck ?
If you don't want to hit your own creatures there is always Settle the Wreckage.
Also, if this is turning into more of a flash-tempo type deck what about Frilled Mystic to go along with Resto and Coatl ?
It'll probably require some more green sources though like a Temple Garden and an extra Breeding Pool over Waterlogged Grove as fetchable options.
Why is Narset in the maindeck here ?
She seems even worse with the more creature-heavy version so Teferi (or even Jace, UoS) seems like a much better option.
I'd also prefer Search for Azcanta as a card filtering/draw engine instead.
don't agree with it being a 'bad' UW control deck. I think it has the potential to be a better UW control deck; Coatl and Waterlogged Grove are excellent cards for the archetype.
That’s why I think you should focus on their power. Resto Angel configurations are the best way to build this kind of decks since... forever. Instead of crappy Wall of Omens we get a real card, finally.
I think that a control can use the 0/4 blocker better than a 1/1 flyer and "flash" is basically the only real advantage of Coatl (I don't really count on the deathtouch).
How can you not get overwhelmed by creatures without sweepers in the deck ?
(...)
I don't really like Winds of Abandon and would prefer Seal Away and Condemn as extra removal besides Path
The answer lies in your own sentences. Winds of Abandon is a spot removal that recycles into a sweeper. If you prefer other sweepers, just run them along with the maindeck 4 Path, 1 Condemn and 4 Coatl. I found them functional, though, and I believe they are a better maindeck option in this deck. If you look at the sb, I also have Terminus there.
Also, if this is turning into more of a flash-tempo type deck what about Frilled Mystic to go along with Resto and Coatl ?
Would 100% run Mystic Snake instead. The double G is too heavy. But it’s a good point, it may be worth a slot alongside Restoration Angel.
Why is Narset in the maindeck here ?
She seems even worse with the more creature-heavy version so Teferi (or even Jace, UoS) seems like a much better option.
I'd also prefer Search for Azcanta as a card filtering/draw engine instead.
Those two slots could be anything that neat you cards. Search for Azcanta is definitely fine. So it is Fact or Fiction (which is a little too expensive in terms of mana, but at least is istant speed). Narset does it’s job well, though, as a double Impulse + hate card. I would definitely not run little Teferi or cc4 walkers in the slot.
I think that a control can use the 0/4 blocker better than a 1/1 flyer and "flash" is basically the only real advantage of Coatl (I don't really count on the deathtouch).
Trust me, that’s not the case. First thing first, this thing is a clock in the air, which isn’t something to dismiss against lots of strategies. Then, I swear, you’re wrong about the deathtouch. It has been invaluable in testing. This thing is a better Baleful Strix from turn three on, and the ‘lack of sweepers’ (which doesn’t hold true anyway) is definitely compensated by flash Resto Angel, blink tapped Coatl, chump with both of them (and very often both of opponent’s creatures are destined to die this way).
You have plenty of time to get to 6 Mana
for Winds of Abandon against just about everything, especially if you play a couple copies of growth spiral. The additional creatures and proactive walkers will keep your opponent's creatures busy enough to buy you time to turn on a winds of Abandon.
In my experience (50 matches or so), with 7 snow basics, 7 fetches and 1-2 field.of ruin, Coatl rarely has death touch on turn 3 because your first fetch usually needs to find a dual. With conscious effort you can turn it on for turn 4 about half the time. Turn 5 is when you can reasonably expect Coatl to be turned on organically.
Despite not being turned on, the lack of defender, having power, and flash are massive advantages over wall of omens; the deck plays majority at instant speed and being able to play creatures during opps eot is a huge advantage when planning how to get your planeswalkers onto the field safely.
As you mentioned, flying is also a huge upside. Being able to block opposing cliques, pheonixes and mantis riders does wonders for the viability of your walkers in some of the most popular matchups.
I think mystic snake is too cute; a little bit of synergy with restoration angel (which I'm convinced is only 1 slot in the main and 1-2 side) isn't enough reason to play a 4 drop that's worse in most situations than cryptic command.
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Land (25)
2x Breeding Pool
3x Celestial Colonnade
3x Field of Ruin
4x Flooded Strand
2x Forest
1x Glacial Fortress
2x Hallowed Fountain
3x Island
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Plains
1x Temple Garden
Enchantment (2)
2x Search for Azcanta Flip
Instant (15)
4x Cryptic Command
4x Growth Spiral
1x Nexus of Fate
4x Path to Exile
2x Settle the Wreckage
Sorcery (7)
4x Serum Visions
1x Supreme Verdict
2x Traverse the Ulvenwald
Creature (8)
1x Emrakul, the Promised End
4x Sakura-Tribe Elder
3x Snapcaster Mage
Planeswalker (3)
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
I also think the Nexus is too cute without Wilderness Reclamation.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
Here's a starting point
3 Celestial Colonnade
3 Waterlogged Grove
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Breeding Pool
4 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Snow-covered Forest
2 Field Of Ruin
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
Removal (7)
4 Path to Exile
1 Oust
2 Supreme Verdict
Counters (8)
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
3 Force of Negation
2 Cryptic Command
4 Opt
4 Growth Spiral
1 Pulse of Murasa
2 Fact or Fiction
Creatures (6)
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Ice-Fang Coatl
I haven't tested it yet, but my initial thoughts might be that 3 Force and 2 Spell Pierce might be too heavy on "negate" effects - however, decks that aren't weak to negate effects aren't going to be great against all of the removal in the deck and we really want to be able to take advantage of the tempo these spells give us, especially Force of when Pierce gets played on turn 2 off of a spiral.
Anyways, what do you guys think?
Another thing to consider is Teferi, Time Raveler, since he forces a trade with Coatl by stopping their removal while also being able to bounce Coatl for value. He also plays well with Oust, but I think On Thin Ice is likely better anyways since you're only playing 2 Fields. Maybe with Coatls, you shouldn't be playing anything other than 4 Paths tho.
Arcum's Astrolabe could be good too.
Edit: No 2 mana counters seems a little odd to me as well.
Edit2: Restoration Angel seems great here too.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
The interesting thing about Astrolabe though, is that it can alleviate some of the downside of playing field of ruin in a 3 color deck that potentially wants UG+UorW on turn 3. It sounds pretty good in theory, just a little hard to find the space.
On Thin Ice has underperformed for me in UW - having to fetch basic plains on turn 1 to deal with a mana dork is awful, and I've been blown out by having On Thin Ice bounced/destroyed far more often than I care for. Pair all of that with the fact that Misty rainforest can't cast OTI on turn 1 and Oust is probably the better card. Often the downside of Oust is a hidden upside as well - forcing them to redraw a slow creature or gaining life by returning one of my own creatures.
Raveler is an excellent card, I can't see myself making a final list without at least 1 copy, same with Narset really. This list is just a mock up. I also think you could be right about Pierce/Force.
I'm not sure I'll miss the 2cmc counters - Spiral and Coatl give us lots of proactive 2cmc plays and the Veto slot has been taken by Force. It's really just a mix of Logic Knot and Mana Leak occupying 2 slots there - Knot probably being the better of the two in a 8 fetch deck - but the list seems pretty tight. What would you suggest cutting for them?
If you want to play more proactive creatures then Vendilion Clique and Spell Queller are still better options imho.
Prohibit seems like an interesting counterspell to try as well since it has applications both early and late in the game.
I'd play it over Spell Snare and Spell Pierce, in the worst case you can just pitch it to Force of Negation anyway.
Here's the list I'm currently on and it feels very consistent and strong:
2 Celestial Colonnade
2 Waterlogged Grove
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Breeding Pool
5 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Snow-covered Forest
1 Arctic Flats
1 Boreal Shelf
Planeswalkers (5)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
4 Path to Exile
1 Condemn
Counters (11)
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Logic Knot
3 Force of Negation
2 Cryptic Command
Consistency (10)
4 Opt
4 Growth Spiral
2 Fact or Fiction
Creatures (7)
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Ice-Fang Coatl
4 Rest In peace
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Restoration Angel
1 Nimble Obstructionist
1 Narset, Parter of Veils
1 Teferi, Time Raveler
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Winds of Abandon
1 Celestial Purge
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Stony Silence
I gave up the Field of Ruins, as Growth Spiral demands a lot of colored mana if you want to be be able to Spiral into a Spell on turn 2. I think if you want field of ruin, you could probably drop the 2 snow-duals for a single field and a misty rainforest. If you went that route I would suggest dropping Coatl number 4 for a Heiroglyphic illumination.
The other thing of note was dropping the sweepers altogether - if you can consistently turn on Coatl, verdict is not necessary.
I've been happy with the 5 "negate" effects of 3 force, 2 pierce - Its a control deck, so creature spells don't bother me a whole lot.
Mirror match feels good. Only played against Hogaak once, and he died to his deck not functioning properly so I can't really speak on the matchup, I don't see it being a whole lot different than UW. Tron is probably a lot differen't with no field of Ruin, but my experience with growth spiral decks in the past has been that the matchup is good despite low numbers of field of ruin (ran 1-2 copies in the past) - they just have such a hard time beating an early jace if you have any disruption at all. Now with force of negation, I dont see this matchup being too hard.
How's your BGx matchup?
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
I also run a pair of snare, which helps a lot in this matchup.
Actually, Winds of Abandon could be the card I was looking for.
Its a sorcery over growth spiral's instant speed, but it never whiffs. It does not draw a card either unfortunately, but it is easier to cast, and it does find the snow duals.
I think you could make a case for terminus as well since it plays nice with spiral growth and Jace.
Rampant growth effects are fine but I don't think into the north is needed - there's lots to do on turn 2 already. Growth spiral is unique because it's instant, draws a card and potentially puts the land in untapped. Being untapped is a huge tempo swing when you turn 2 spiral into interaction (pierce, snare, path).
Good eye, 22nd land was a breeding pool. Brings the U to 19 and the G to 12 for cryptic and the UG two drops.
I do occasionally miss on the Spiral, but not usually until 4+ mana. The deck is very cantrip heavy so if you go to many lands you flood like crazy. This was one of the biggest reasons why I was so excited about Waterlogged Grove.
I often have to shock myself on turn 1 in order to Opt into land 3, but it's a small price to pay. Additionally, if you don't have land 3 you can just Coatl or Opt instead of Growth because they give you either a) a better chance to find land 3 with opt or b)progress the board state with Coatl. I wouldn't cast Growth on turn 2 if I didn't have the land already if I had either of those other options.
In my testing so far 22 has felt a tiny bit light on lands and 23 has felt a tiny bit heavy. Need a bigger sample size.
However, as I tested and tweaked I realized how powerful Waterlogged Grove is. I tried normal UW, just replaced 2 Field and 2 Colonnade for 4 Waterlogged Grove and it was actually good. You just need to make sure you run Timely Reinforcements to make up for the lifeloss. Since I already had 4 green sources in the deck I wanted to try to make bant work again because I was missing Coatl.
Based on some of the suggestions here, I slowly added more and more Winds of Abandon until I was off all other sweepers and eventually cut down to 3 Path. Here's the List
2 Field of Ruin
2 Celestial Colonnade
4 Waterlogged Grove
4 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Breeding Pool
4 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Snow-covered Forest
Planeswalkers (7)
2 Narset, Parter of Veils
1 Teferi, Time Raveler
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
3 Path to Exile
3 Winds of Abandon
Counters (7)
3 Force of Negation
2 Logic Knot
2 Cryptic Command
Consistency (8)
4 Opt
2 Growth Spiral
1 Fact or Fiction
1 HeiroGlyphic Illumination
Creatures (6)
3 Ice-Fang Coatl
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
Other (2)
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Rest In Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ravenous Trap
2 Dovin's Veto
1 Stony Silence
1 Celestial Purge
1 Path to Exile
1 Ice-Fang Coatl
1 Restoration Angel
1 Vendilion Clique
A couple growth Spirals help turn Winds of Abandon into a real sweeper. Because of the high number of removal spells in the deck (PTE, Coatl and WInds) and the SB creatures pulling double duty against control and creature decks, you don't need a lot of space in the sideboard for removal - 1 PTE and 1 more coatl. The sideboard is obviously heavily skewed towards Hogaak.
Growth spiral incentives you to cut your cantrips for real lands, which is sometimes a worthy tradeoff, but not always. You aren't playing asttrolabe, but for those who are, you can't just cut it for more lands.
Trying to cast 5 drops in a 24 land deck with 4 canopies seems heavy IMO.
I'd probably cap out on 2 / 24.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
First thing first, I don’t believe that anything less than four Path to Exile is right. There are too many spots where your opponent is on the play and you are forced to deal with its play immediately. And six removal overall, even with Coatl, is definitely too much on the low side of the spectrum.
I can definitely understand the point on Growth Spiral. I don’t even like the card. The point of splashing green, imho, should be Ice-Fang Coatl. What I would be interested in is, in fact, a Restoration Angel build that complements it.
3 Field of Ruin
2 Celestial Colonnade
3 Waterlogged Grove
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Breeding Pool
4 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Snow-covered Forest
3x Snapcaster Mage
4x Ice-Fang Coatl
2x Vendilion Clique
2x Restoration Angel
Planeswalkers (4)
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Narset, Parter of Veils
Spells (21)
4x Opt
2x Serum Visions
4x Path to Exile
1x Condemn
2x Winds of Abandon
3x Force of Negation
2x Logic Knot
2x Cryptic Command
Something of the sort, I mean.
I don't agree with it being a 'bad' UW control deck. I think it has the potential to be a better UW control deck; Coatl and Waterlogged Grove are excellent cards for the archetype.
If it turns out to be a bad UW control deck, it would be because Field of Ruin is better than Waterlogged Grove or that 7 fetch lands is much worse than 5. I'm not convinced of either of those things.
That’s why I think you should focus on their power. Resto Angel configurations are the best way to build this kind of decks since... forever. Instead of crappy Wall of Omens we get a real card, finally. I also believe you are overestimating cycle lands in this archetype. Control always want to make landrops until the very late game. These things also deal damage to you, which is the opposite a Control deck wants to be at. 2-3 are fine, the full set is definitely overdoing.
IMHO.
It could be correct to run a different dual over the 3rd and/or 4th grove (hintetland, Misty, prismatic Vista etc), but they have just been performing so well and flooding seems to be way more of a common problem for me than running out of life points because of painful Mana.
On another note, I think prismatic Vista should occupy some slots over Misty rainforest if you plan on using creatures with white in the cost and you don't want to play Temple garden, like resto. Ive been fiddling with a couple resto in the side and a couple times I had already fetched my hallowed fountain on a turn when I wanted to cast both resto and either a path or a tef3 in the same turn and it it was ugly. Because of running 2 plains and only 1 hallowed, Vista is probably better.
Not assuming Green isn’t worth it, just saying.
You may definitely be right about Primastic Vista, I wasn’t pondering on the manabase yet, just attempted to provide a skeleton where to start from.
How can you not get overwhelmed by creatures without sweepers in the deck ?
If you don't want to hit your own creatures there is always Settle the Wreckage.
I don't really like Winds of Abandon and would prefer Seal Away and Condemn as extra removal besides Path at instant speed.
As sorceries Oust and Declaration in Stone seem better and there is always Detention Sphere as a catch-all for PW's and artifacts/enchantments as well.
Also, if this is turning into more of a flash-tempo type deck what about Frilled Mystic to go along with Resto and Coatl ?
It'll probably require some more green sources though like a Temple Garden and an extra Breeding Pool over Waterlogged Grove as fetchable options.
Why is Narset in the maindeck here ?
She seems even worse with the more creature-heavy version so Teferi (or even Jace, UoS) seems like a much better option.
I'd also prefer Search for Azcanta as a card filtering/draw engine instead.
I think that a control can use the 0/4 blocker better than a 1/1 flyer and "flash" is basically the only real advantage of Coatl (I don't really count on the deathtouch).
The answer lies in your own sentences. Winds of Abandon is a spot removal that recycles into a sweeper. If you prefer other sweepers, just run them along with the maindeck 4 Path, 1 Condemn and 4 Coatl. I found them functional, though, and I believe they are a better maindeck option in this deck. If you look at the sb, I also have Terminus there.
Would 100% run Mystic Snake instead. The double G is too heavy. But it’s a good point, it may be worth a slot alongside Restoration Angel.
Those two slots could be anything that neat you cards. Search for Azcanta is definitely fine. So it is Fact or Fiction (which is a little too expensive in terms of mana, but at least is istant speed). Narset does it’s job well, though, as a double Impulse + hate card. I would definitely not run little Teferi or cc4 walkers in the slot.
Trust me, that’s not the case. First thing first, this thing is a clock in the air, which isn’t something to dismiss against lots of strategies. Then, I swear, you’re wrong about the deathtouch. It has been invaluable in testing. This thing is a better Baleful Strix from turn three on, and the ‘lack of sweepers’ (which doesn’t hold true anyway) is definitely compensated by flash Resto Angel, blink tapped Coatl, chump with both of them (and very often both of opponent’s creatures are destined to die this way).
for Winds of Abandon against just about everything, especially if you play a couple copies of growth spiral. The additional creatures and proactive walkers will keep your opponent's creatures busy enough to buy you time to turn on a winds of Abandon.
In my experience (50 matches or so), with 7 snow basics, 7 fetches and 1-2 field.of ruin, Coatl rarely has death touch on turn 3 because your first fetch usually needs to find a dual. With conscious effort you can turn it on for turn 4 about half the time. Turn 5 is when you can reasonably expect Coatl to be turned on organically.
Despite not being turned on, the lack of defender, having power, and flash are massive advantages over wall of omens; the deck plays majority at instant speed and being able to play creatures during opps eot is a huge advantage when planning how to get your planeswalkers onto the field safely.
As you mentioned, flying is also a huge upside. Being able to block opposing cliques, pheonixes and mantis riders does wonders for the viability of your walkers in some of the most popular matchups.
I think mystic snake is too cute; a little bit of synergy with restoration angel (which I'm convinced is only 1 slot in the main and 1-2 side) isn't enough reason to play a 4 drop that's worse in most situations than cryptic command.