I've just sleeved this up for FNM tomorrow. Saw Jim's and Rudy's articles yesterday and watched Jim play it on youtube yesterday. He is clearly not too high on Steam-Kin, but I think in the combo-ish version Risk Factor is actually really important. Each copy, as with Faithless Looting, is essentially two spells AND Risk Factor is also a discard outlet.
I'll be running Rudy's list tomorrow. I'll let you know my thoughts after.
Given the increase in mono-red lists without Runaway Steam-Kin, should they be discussed here or not? They tend to have Arclight Phoenix, Bedlam Reveler, and Fiery Temper, but given that Runaway Steam-Kin is an incredible mana engine that often dies to every removal spell, those lists do play at least slightly differently.
How has the green splash been paying off as far as removing enchantments/graveyard hate? Has it been worth shifting away from the simple mana base?
I haven't found any real detriment from the land base at all thus far, though coming from a limited sample of course as the deck is so new. I like the idea of running 6-10 Fetches & 1-2 Shocks instead of Fast Lands so that we never have dead land draws.
Destructive Revelry has helped through Turn 0 Leylines (both White and Black), but if the opponent lands multiple copies we have to go with our mainboard plan of just trying to grind through the hate. That said, often removing the Turn 0 Leyline will buy us enough time to dump our cards being hated before the opponent can stick a second copy via hard cast. Hitting an early game Aether Vial is a strong line against Humans, as well as removing an Eidolon for big go-off turns versus Burn. I didn't mention specific hits against Affinity/Tron/Amulet/Ironworks as they are likely well known.
There's still a lot of testing to be done to see how this sideboard plan pays off, and how worthwhile it is, but I am very happy with it so far.
An aside, there is a Discord based on Phoenix decks that a user shared in the UR thread. Both mono-R and UR variants are in there, so may be worth a join.
Love seeing the different innovations. I'm still a big fan of Steam-Kin though. I completely understand why someone would cut it, but being able to chain FL is huge in situations where you need to outrace a combo deck. Plus I think Risk Factor is legitimately good: another card that has great synergy with Steam-Kin to keep you from passing a turn just to burn for four (I run two, which I think is the perfect number: being able to cast it from your hand means one card can either deal 8 damage, or deal 4 and draw you three).
Crushing game after game with this deck. If people are not bringing enough removal, Kiln Fiend will kill them.
3-1 tonight, and I punted the 3rd game of the loss.
2-0 Affinity.
2-0 BW Tokens.
2-0 UW Spirits.
1-2 Turns! I played a lot of Turns, and I'm certainly favoured, but I was stuck on 1 land Game 1, Game 2 I obliterated him as he let me get 2 active Steam Kin, and Game 3, I had the kill but I wanted to get fancy, and was punished for it when I Manamorphose pointlessly, and he spells snared it, leaving me with no mana for the Bolt's in hand.
Anyone tried Magmatic Insight? The games we have with Faithless, vs where we dont see one, are night and day. I'm looking for something that can do the same, without going full Burning Inquiry, but I suppose that will be the next step.
3-1 tonight with Insight, and it was all fine never hurt me, I think I cast it once.
Nice, looks like the deck is fast enough to outrace even Affinity.
Is the list you posted still the one you're using?
Magmatic insight... are you going to replace lootings with it or in addition to lootings? Feels like looting is still the better one because it only cost one mana, does not require to pitch a land, and has flashback.
Looking nice. In theory those insights should help keep the deck gassed. Even if the deck only has 17 land, the other cantrips should help reach extra lands.
Oh, and I made a mistake,, thought insight costed two mana. Now I see it only cost R.. worth testing.
18 Lands, with the Insight I even thought of going higher, but at this point the reality is my line is.
Mountain - Do I have a Swiftspear or Bolt? If Swiftspear, play it.
Mountain - Do I have a Steam Kin or Kiln Fiend? Well I better or why did I keep this hand? Expecting removal and what Turn 3 will look like (can I kill them?) either play for the kill (Fiend) or prepare to generate Mana (Steam Kin).
Mountain - At this point the ideal is chain 3 spells for lethal, otherwise start looking at the turn 4 or 5 kill. If turn 4 kill, EoT Risk Factor.
Mountain - Generate for the kill here, or EoT Risk Factor.
Mountain - If turn 5, its likely going to be on the backs of burn + final points from Phoenix, with Turn 4 spent on an End of Turn Risk Factor
Those seem to be the lines, Reveler throws things off a bit, as those are your turn 4 or 5 kills.
Ah, I see there is also a Ramunap + 17 so 18 it is. I think 18 is fine since the highest cmc is 3, and I assume the reveler is cast for 3 or less. The addition of insights does make the deck more into the combo route.
An unopposed KF can kill someone easily. I had some experience with the Bloo decks from about a year ago. Although being mono red, this deck does not have anything to protect the KF. The Bloo decks from 2017 however, do not have arclights.. so even if the KF is removed you still have the main plan with the phoenix.
Have you tried testing Maximize Velocity as a one-of? Looks good for feeding steam kin and allows kiln fiend to attack right away.
imo with this insight route you lose a lot of fiery temper equity. to the point where it might be worth using those slots for something else. just take a look at those two top lists from scg baltimore. tormenting voice, lightning axe, maximize velocity. thats double or more the discard outlets to generate madness value.
i agree with Fluff, maximize velocity seems great with what you are doing. crash through might be worth consideration if you are on the kiln fiend plan.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Yep, I got SMOKED last night. People it seems are already adapting to Phoenix decks online, or I just got unlucky. Velocity is more important than card selection for this deck.
Pure Red also run's into very very terrible feels, when they play Kor Firewalker on turns 2 and 3. Just kinda...scoop em.
Sorry to hear that. Well, not all decks have WW to cast firewalkers.
It's only natural that it's time for the meta to try to adapt.
Could be too mana intensive, but 2 Rampaging Ferocidon against the lifegain decks? Or if there are too many lifegain decks, Leyline of Punishment? Leylines have the danger of diluting deck strategy.. but extra leylines could be pitched to looting or jump start risk factor.
To get more discussion going on in this thread, how good do you think Light Up the Stage is in this deck? It's finally reliable (enough) CA for the same price as Risk Factor. I've found that Risk Factor's Draw 3 mode is the best mode, but my opponents will generally rather take 4 damage. I do find Risk Factor useful as a discard outlet, but it's so slow. Light Up the Stage has flipped Arclight Phoenix before, but I've been able to hardcast the Phoenix more than half the time. It's surprisingly hard for this deck to get Spectacle, and I'm trying to get used to casting Light Up the Stage for its full cost.
I'll be running Rudy's list tomorrow. I'll let you know my thoughts after.
I haven't found any real detriment from the land base at all thus far, though coming from a limited sample of course as the deck is so new. I like the idea of running 6-10 Fetches & 1-2 Shocks instead of Fast Lands so that we never have dead land draws.
Destructive Revelry has helped through Turn 0 Leylines (both White and Black), but if the opponent lands multiple copies we have to go with our mainboard plan of just trying to grind through the hate. That said, often removing the Turn 0 Leyline will buy us enough time to dump our cards being hated before the opponent can stick a second copy via hard cast. Hitting an early game Aether Vial is a strong line against Humans, as well as removing an Eidolon for big go-off turns versus Burn. I didn't mention specific hits against Affinity/Tron/Amulet/Ironworks as they are likely well known.
There's still a lot of testing to be done to see how this sideboard plan pays off, and how worthwhile it is, but I am very happy with it so far.
An aside, there is a Discord based on Phoenix decks that a user shared in the UR thread. Both mono-R and UR variants are in there, so may be worth a join.
16 Mountain
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
Creatures
4 Arclight Phoenix
3 Bedlam Reveler
4 Runaway Steam-Kin
4 Soul-Scar Mage
Spells
2 Burst Lightning
4 Fiery Temper
2 Gut Shot
1 Lightning Axe
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Manamorphose
3 Risk Factor
1 Surgical Extraction
4 Faithless Looting
1 Maximize Velocity
2 Tormenting Voice
2 Dragon's Claw
2 Shrine of Burning Rage
2 Blood Moon
2 Abrade
3 Ravenous Trap
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Shattering Spree
Jund
GDS
Jeskai Control
Izzet Phoenix
Jeskai Control
Mono R Phoenix
UW Control
KCI
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An those two were the finalists, with the UR version winning in a very close game.
1 Ramunap Ruins
17 Mountain
//Creatures
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Kiln Fiend
4 Runaway Steam-Kin
4 Arclight Phoenix
2 Bedlam Reveler
4 Faithless Looting
4 Manamorphose
2 Risk Factor
//Burn
2 Gut Shot
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fiery Temper
//Modern
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Temur Battle Rage
1 Stormbreath Dragon
3 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Lightning Axe
2 Abrade
1 Shattering Spree
2 Molten Rain
3 Tormod's Crypt
My last game Turn 3, Game 3.
10:56 PM: Turn 3: idSurge
10:57 PM: idSurge casts Manamorphose.
10:57 PM: idSurge puts triggered ability from Kiln Fiend onto the stack.
10:57 PM: idSurge puts triggered ability from Monastery Swiftspear onto the stack.
10:57 PM: idSurge draws a card with Manamorphose.
10:57 PM: idSurge casts Manamorphose.
10:57 PM: idSurge puts triggered ability from Kiln Fiend onto the stack.
10:57 PM: idSurge puts triggered ability from Monastery Swiftspear onto the stack.
10:57 PM: idSurge draws a card with Manamorphose.
10:57 PM: idSurge casts Faithless Looting.
10:57 PM: idSurge puts triggered ability from Kiln Fiend onto the stack.
10:57 PM: idSurge puts triggered ability from Monastery Swiftspear onto the stack.
10:57 PM: idSurge draws two cards with Faithless Looting.
10:57 PM: idSurge discards Fiery Temper.
10:57 PM: idSurge discards Arclight Phoenix.
10:57 PM: idSurge puts triggered ability from Fiery Temper onto the stack.
10:57 PM: idSurge casts Fiery Temper targeting Voice of Resurgence.
10:57 PM: idSurge puts triggered ability from Kiln Fiend onto the stack.
10:57 PM: idSurge puts triggered ability from Monastery Swiftspear onto the stack.
10:57 PM: Opponent puts triggered ability from Voice of Resurgence onto the stack.
10:57 PM: Opponent's Voice of Resurgence creates an Elemental token.
10:57 PM: idSurge plays Mountain.
10:57 PM: idSurge casts Lightning Bolt targeting Elemental token.
10:57 PM: idSurge puts triggered ability from Kiln Fiend onto the stack.
10:57 PM: idSurge puts triggered ability from Monastery Swiftspear onto the stack.
10:57 PM: idSurge puts triggered ability from Arclight Phoenix onto the stack.
Spirits
Nicely done, that's brutal.
Anyway, what decks are you using the eidolons in the sideboard?
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Spirits
3-1 tonight, and I punted the 3rd game of the loss.
2-0 Affinity.
2-0 BW Tokens.
2-0 UW Spirits.
1-2 Turns! I played a lot of Turns, and I'm certainly favoured, but I was stuck on 1 land Game 1, Game 2 I obliterated him as he let me get 2 active Steam Kin, and Game 3, I had the kill but I wanted to get fancy, and was punished for it when I Manamorphose pointlessly, and he spells snared it, leaving me with no mana for the Bolt's in hand.
Spirits
3-1 tonight with Insight, and it was all fine never hurt me, I think I cast it once.
Kiln Fiend remains the truth.
Spirits
Is the list you posted still the one you're using?
Magmatic insight... are you going to replace lootings with it or in addition to lootings? Feels like looting is still the better one because it only cost one mana, does not require to pitch a land, and has flashback.
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Spirits
Your deck already looks pretty much filled with decent cantrips and card draw.
EDIT: maybe cut 1 tbr for 1 insight?
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A red loot Opt for example 'scry 1, draw a card, discard a card' is kind of what I'm hoping for.
There are not that many 1 mana looting cards.
Here's where I am at with it (was on phone)
17 Mountain
1 Ramunap Ruins
//Creature
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Kiln Fiend
4 Runaway Steam-Kin
2 Bedlam Reveler
4 Arclight Phoenix
4 Faithless Looting
3 Magmatic Insight
4 Manamorphose
2 Risk Factor
//Burn
2 Gut Shot
4 Fiery Temper
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Abrade
3 Anger of the Gods
1 Stormbreath Dragon
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Lightning Axe
2 Eidolon of the Great Revel
1 Shattering Spree
2 Molten Rain
Spirits
Oh, and I made a mistake,, thought insight costed two mana. Now I see it only cost R.. worth testing.
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Mountain - Do I have a Swiftspear or Bolt? If Swiftspear, play it.
Mountain - Do I have a Steam Kin or Kiln Fiend? Well I better or why did I keep this hand? Expecting removal and what Turn 3 will look like (can I kill them?) either play for the kill (Fiend) or prepare to generate Mana (Steam Kin).
Mountain - At this point the ideal is chain 3 spells for lethal, otherwise start looking at the turn 4 or 5 kill. If turn 4 kill, EoT Risk Factor.
Mountain - Generate for the kill here, or EoT Risk Factor.
Mountain - If turn 5, its likely going to be on the backs of burn + final points from Phoenix, with Turn 4 spent on an End of Turn Risk Factor
Those seem to be the lines, Reveler throws things off a bit, as those are your turn 4 or 5 kills.
Spirits
An unopposed KF can kill someone easily. I had some experience with the Bloo decks from about a year ago. Although being mono red, this deck does not have anything to protect the KF. The Bloo decks from 2017 however, do not have arclights.. so even if the KF is removed you still have the main plan with the phoenix.
Have you tried testing Maximize Velocity as a one-of? Looks good for feeding steam kin and allows kiln fiend to attack right away.
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
i agree with Fluff, maximize velocity seems great with what you are doing. crash through might be worth consideration if you are on the kiln fiend plan.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Pure Red also run's into very very terrible feels, when they play Kor Firewalker on turns 2 and 3. Just kinda...scoop em.
Spirits
It's only natural that it's time for the meta to try to adapt.
Could be too mana intensive, but 2 Rampaging Ferocidon against the lifegain decks? Or if there are too many lifegain decks, Leyline of Punishment? Leylines have the danger of diluting deck strategy.. but extra leylines could be pitched to looting or jump start risk factor.
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
Spirits
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza