I've been playing UB Control for the week or so on MODO and have really been enjoying it. It's an archetype that's been historically good in other formats and, as far as I know, hasn't been explored a lot in Modern. I decided to create a new thread because this is a lot different than the "UB Planewalker Control" thread and the OP there just wanted some tweaks. This thread is for the development of the archetype in Modern.
There was one #2 Finish in a MODO competitive league on 2-20-18. That's not to say it's good but it is a glimmer of hope for this mostly dead archetype.
I added the Kalitas he was running to my sideboard and played some last night. They felt good against the obvious strategies.
I don't have 4x Collected Brutality and I'm not sure that's necessary but that and 4x Liliana of the Veil is brutal... especially on the wallet. I don't have all those so I didn't try his build card for card. 4x Liliana of Veil seems a bit much even when budget isn't considered because I feel like she's going to be a three mana edict a lot of the time. That seems bad but I reserve the right to be wrong.
I don't care for his main deck Spellbombs but I could see how they'd be good depending on what you're expecting. I think the deck needs the Extirpate effect against some of the fringe decks one is likely to encounter. For example, extirpating Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle really neuters the Titan/Scapeshift decks that turn up on occasion.
All that said here's my take on the deck. It's been performing well and more than one of my losses has been to misplays on my part. As is usual with this archetype it's not easy to play correctly 100% of the time. By running blue black we get serious disruption and nice little late game card advantage engine in the maindeck.
First, I just want to say dropping a Spreading Seas after looking at an opponents hand with discard can be really dirty. Sometimes this deck can just shut an opponent like Abzan out for a couple of turns that way. Those types of decks have very little use for off color mana.
Twenty three lands has felt like the right number. I started with twenty four and flooded a lot. Eight cantrips and the two Search for Azcanta help a lot. Search has been really good and I'm almost always really happy to see it. I've been running a lot of basics because I've been seeing a lot of maindeck Blood Moons on MODO.
I like Extirpate in the board because it shuts down combo combined with Thoughtseize and IOK and provides an answer other than countering every copy of pesky enchantments and artifacts we have no other answer to. It Can be used with Cryptic to answer the second copy of a resolved permanent. I like Split Second better than the Phyrexian Mana on Surgical because it can't be responded to with any of the commonly played graveyard removal. I presume there's a Morph guy that could be that's not really a thing in Modern.
Disallow has been really good for a 3 cmc Counterspell. Field of Ruin and Spreading Seas already put a lot of pressure on opposing mana bases and every now and then Disallow turns into a blue Stone Rain for fetchlands on top of them. Having them in the main versus Storm feels dirty too. Since turns one and two are spent throwing discard and two mana enchantments around the three mana hasn't been a real issue. It can be Snapped back one turn earlier than Cryptic and sometimes that's a big deal. It could answer Westvale Abbey if it can't be turned into an Island for some reason but I haven't had that issue with this particular deck.
The Geth's Verdict in the sideboard has been a bit meh but it answers Abbey and Emrukal. The Bomb in the board has been lackluster as well but it does answer artifact based decks better than most of the things we have access to in UB other than Hurkly's Recall. The Recall might be worth exploring.
I never board Liliana, the Last Hope out. Even against the control mirror she has been great for recurring Snapcaster Mage and clears opposing copies of Tiago Chan off the board. Her ultimate is a real threat but most decks just can't handle Snapcaster recursion and lots of games have been won by turning a Creeping Tarpit and a Snapcaster Mage sideways. Having her in the maindeck is also a real tilt against the various weenie decks running around Modern. I could see a situation where Lili and Geth could shut down dredge if we can maneuver into that position. I'm not sure but 3x Geth might the right number.
I could take or leave Tasigur but he turns the corner quick and provides a Jayemdae Tome effect. I activate him more in this deck than I ever did in Grixis Death's Shadow. I started playing the deck with two copies of Tasigur but cut one for the second Azcanta. I don't feel like running two of fatties just to win the game in a deck that tries to get into a position where anything could win.
Hero's Downfall has been really good for answering opposing plainswalkers while still being decent against midrange creature strategies. I leave it in the board against decks packing Thalia, Guardian of Thraben.
Do you have trouble vs lingering souls with this list? Have you considered dropping your 1 of Jace for something else? I ask because Jace just doesn't seem like a great card at the moment. I've considered dropping him from my lists for Architect of Thought (way better vs lingering souls).
Unfortunately, I've only played against a Lingering Souls deck once with this deck so I can't really answer the question definitively. In that match Liliana kept it in check and Spreading Seas cut off the white half of the card for a turn or two if I remember correctly.
If one was really worried about it they could probably hit the discard outlet with IOK or TS but I think taking a threat that's more impactful and/or harder to deal with is the better play. That's why there are five discard spells in my list. I really want to hit one turn one but I don't want to be flooded with them. I do target discard with Snapcaster on turn 3 a lot.
Jace is just another way to win the game and draw cards at the same time. I was running two but one seems like the right number. One line I've taken (when I was running two Jaces and on the play) was T1 Discard their T1 play, T2 Spreading Seas to shut off the rest of their hand, T3 Disallow a fetch land, T4 Jace to keep them off their tertiary colors while I build a dominating board position. I think that was against Abzan but that's just Magical Christmas land and isn't likely to happen again.
The thing with decks like this is even though it looks like a bunch of 1 and 2 of's their's a real redundancy of effects.
I've still been playing this in the practice room on MODO to good effect. I've made a few changes to help it compete against some of the more common decks in the format and completely revamped the sideboard to focus on dealing with the fast and aggressive decks.
The more I play it the more I prefer Jace in this build. His fate seal ability comes up as a win condition a lot in this deck from what I've seen.
Engineered Explosives helps against Bogles and any deck that creates a lot of tokens. I still haven't seen any more Lingering Souls decks though. Liliana is still good but she's slow so one is in the sideboard now.
Rain of Tears has been good out of the sideboard in control mirrors but it's really there for Valukut, the Molten Pinnacle and Tron. I moved to a second creature based win condition so there are more ways to pressure them after disrupting their mana. I still need more play time against these decks but the Wurmcoil Engine gives a fourth life gain effect against burn and Goblins. I haven't seen Boros based burn in a week but I've seen some Goblins and this version is pretty good against them post board.
Since I'm running the EE's now I put a single Steam Vents in to tick it up to three against planeswalkers and Dentention Sphere. That's been good and it allows for a couple of real artifact removal spells out of the sideboard. I suppose one could run a Hallowed Fountain and Disenchant instead but the By Forces have been good against the usual suspects - Lantern and Affinity. The decks I want them against don't put a lot of pressure on the mana base so it seem fine and is very similar to how burn runs Destructive Revelry.
The singleton Shadow of Doubt is really functioning as Spreading Seas number five and has been pulling its own weight or once. Aside from being good against Tron and decks running Gifts Ungiven it also works well with Spreading Seas. This is because it punishes decks for trying to play around Spreading Seas by holding up fetch lands.
The second Disallow hasn't been as good as the fourth Cryptic Command so that's in now. The shenanigans that occur with Snapcaster and Cryptic can just win games.
Cast Down has been fine. It doesn't hit either Thalia but those decks have plenty of other targets for it so it hasn't been an issue.
I've been seeing more decks running more basics and have been thinking about running at least a couple copies of Tectonic Edge instead of some of the Field of Ruins.
Search for Azcanta and Jace have been really good at digging for specific cards when they're needed.
In case anyone is interested, one of the players who usually comes to play the monthly Modern Open at my LGS has brought UB Control a couple of times and he did a great job finishing in 3rd position the second time, every game I watched it was amazing and the deck felt very good, maybe you want to check it out:
I'm constantly tweaking the deck but the number of cards I consider "flex slots" is dropping, assuming my meta stays relatively stable.
I see people are avoiding playing Liliana of the Veil. She has been quite the power house in my list. I was apprehensive at first but once I started playing her I felt the deck's power level go up a lot. Ashiok is another card I'd like to see more of in the archetype. There are certainly games where she is useless (delve creatures, hollow one, combo decks, none of which are popular in my meta so I may be biased here...) but she is great so often. Against any midrange or control deck I feel like I can't lose and then against aggro Ashiok is a great win con after the dust has settled after a Damnation.
I'm interested in the rationale behind Depian's list running 0 cheap counter spells in the main. I've been dropping them a lot and relegating them to the sideboard and it's been working really well for me so I'm happy I'm not alone.
Any thoughts on my list? I've been doing pretty well the last few months (averaging about a 2-1 in my local meta) But the last two weeks have been 0-3 and 0-2 with a BYE. I've been getting beaten up by aggro so I'm trying Kalitas and Tendrils in the board. I've been debating going up another cheap kill spell in the main like Cast Down but not sure what to cut.
I can't tell for sure as it isn't my decklist but I imagine he is trying to be more proactive on early turns (more discard + Spreading Seas), he also plays Tasigur, the Golden Fang so maybe he prefers to clear the way with discard spells and then drop a menacing permanent such as Tasigur or a Liliana. I will ask him next time I see him
Yep, my deck is certainly trying to go later than your friend's deck is. The land count and discard spells give that away. I've found 3 to be a good number and I probably wouldn't go over 4. But that's because I want to win the long game.
I have a love-hate relationship with tasigur. He is great at all stages of the game: he can come down early and save you tons of life / apply pressure or he can come down late and generate a little card advantage. The issue is he's quite the lightning rod. He doesn't die to much but if your opponent has path to exile you are screwed because you invested a lot of resources into your one card. He also forces you to play some number of thoughtscour which is not the card I want to play in a control deck. I would rather be playing search for azcanta, serum visions, and lots of damnations personally. But maybe this is another leak like Liliana of the Veil. Maybe I'm over analyzing and I should just be playing the powerful card. I'm not sure.
One thing I'm skeptical on with your friend's list is the third Jace. I'm playing a slower deck and I've found 2 Jace to be a great number. Jace is a really slow card and requires a lot of support so I would hate to see 2 of them.
I ended up going 2-1 with the list I posted above!
I beat G Tron 2-0. I got enough Spreading Seas, Tec Edges, and Creeping Tar Pits to win both games. He landed a couple Karns but they were never good enough because each time I had more than 1 Tar Pit so he didn't get anywhere.
Lost to Hardened Scales 0-2. I had no clue what I was doing so I got crushed... His hands were so good I don't think I could have constructed a winning hand besides 3x Damnation 4x Land. I'm sure if I had more removal I could have put up a fight.
I beat GB Eldrazi 2-1 by the skin of my teeth. Game 1 Ashiok stole a couple Eldrazi and I won easily. Game 2 I got crushed by a pile of Eldrazi. He game me a couple extra turns to draw into a Damnation but I never found it. Game 3 He surgical extractioned all my Jace and Lilianas... but I had a Kalitas with 2 counters on it which dominated the game against all his smaller Eldrazi.
Overall a good run. I'm very happy with a 2-1. I think I'll drop the Shadow of Doubt. It's a little too situational in my current meta I think. Any ideas for dealing with Hardened Scales?
A primer would be great! Main problem is that there are many versions of this deck. I prefer the spreading seas + walkers version but I've seen good decks that play more draw go topping out with Gearhulks. And then there are the midrange versions with tasigur and 6+ discard spells and Liliana the last hope main.
With so many versions is it possible to make a coherent primer? Let me know if I can help.
Hey guys, I went 2-3 at a pptq today. It was my first time playing at a higher level than fnm. Lots of fun but I ended up doing pretty medium.
0-2 against G Tron. Close games but I wasn't able to win fast enough.
0-2 against titanshift. Usually a pretty good match up but I didn't have enough counter / discard to do much. Lost to scapeshift both times.
2-0 against eldrazi tron. Game 1 he mulled to 5. Game 2 I dismantled his hand with discard and cryptic and won with a quick jace.
2-0 against grixis control. Liliana of the Veil totally wrecks this deck. He was playing young pyromancer main board which didn't do much either game.
1-2 against UW control without terminus. I won game 1 by out grinding him and then way too many lands the next two games.
Here's the list I took: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/ub-superfriends-control/
Do you have a list you could post?
These GY decks have been really tough. Otherwise I feel pretty good with my match ups.
Leylines might be our only hope. Spellbombs feel too weak to me. Maybe I just need to play more copies.
1-2 against Humans. All three games were very close! He just had infinite Mantis Riders which happens to be the hardest card in the deck to deal with for us I think.
1-0 against UW Control. I won game 1 since my opponent drew like 10 lands early. Then we went to time.
Out: 3x Push, 3x Damnation, Dismember, 1x Spreading Seas
In: 3x Countersquall, Pithing Needle, Rain of Tears, 2x To the Slaughter, Clique
2-0 agianst Jund Blood Moon. game 1 was pretty easy since we just killed each other's threats and then I won the long game. Game 2 He got rid of all 4 planeswalkers that I kept in very early on, stuck a blood moon and then it was a slow grind. I ended up winning with 0 cards in my library. Very fun games!
Leylines never came up and I think more spellbombs would have been better in the match ups I face. I think Spellbombs are good enough against the graveyard decks too, especially if I have a lot of them. I think I'll switch out the Leylines for spellbombs. Pithing needle also wasn't very useful, and I don't think it's good enough against Humans.
I tried 2x Logic Knot in the mainboard and it was a bit awkward with Liliana but it was nice seeing counter magic slightly more often.
There are still a few more cards that will be spoiled tomorrow but we have seen a lot of them. The only cards I'm interested in are Thought Erasure and Unmoored Ego.
Thought Erasure is a good replacement for Thoughtseize I think. It costs extra but has minor value in the late game. The 2 life is very relevant against a lot of decks and we don't need discard on turn 1 all the time. But on the other hand you can't overload on these. Depending on how much discard you want in your deck this could be a 2-of mainboard I think. It's very underpowered though so I'm not jumping out of my seat right now.
Unmoored Ego is a sweet card and is useful in a lot of match ups. It's only a sideboard card though. It could be a good catch all in the sideboard and free up slots. It handily wins the Tron, Valakut, KCI, and Ad Naus match ups on its own: some tough match ups here. It can help a lot against storm but you need to be smart about what you're taking. More silver bullets like this are very nice but The big players in the meta don't care too much. So maybe we just go for it and play 4 of these in the board / 4 graveyard hate cards and fill the rest with ways to win the fair match ups. We generally have 50%+ fair match ups anyway so It's not the worst sideboard plan.
What cards are you interested in specifically? Neither of these seem to rocket us into a competitive place in the meta but they are welcome additions.
Here's my initial idea for when the set comes out. I figure Ego can shore up a lot of match ups. Maybe we even want one mainboard to have a chance game 1 against those decks. Any thoughts?
I like the more midrange approach to the deck, trying to out value rather than stall forever like some lists have done in the past. Without tools like Terminus we end up needing to win quickly against some percentage of decks so it's tough to really play a pure control deck.
That said, your deck could be more focused. I think Ancestral Visions is too slow for your deck. And as much as I dislike the card your deck really wants thoughtscour and probably some number of serum visions.
In this type of deck Liliana of the Veil is pretty good, so maybe cut some counter spells for more Veils since she doesn't synergize with counters. Along with this you want to play some targeted discard.
Tendrills and Languish are a little strange. Even with that many creatures you can play a couple Damnation instead of these wipes.
All of these suggestions are under the assumption you want to play a more midrangey build. if you want to be more controlling play more damnation and cut a lot of the creatures. Logic Knot is another good option for both builds.
I like all of these changes. Happy to hear that Unmoored Ego is doing well for you. it seems like a very powerful card that should win a lot of unfair match ups on its own so we can slant the deck to just beat up on fair decks a little.
So there are sort of two ways to build this deck: tap-out and draw-go. Obviously you'll have some sorcery speed stuff in draw-go but you want to keep it to a minimum. I enjoy tap-out a bit more becuase I think discard and planeswalkers are the more powerful way to play the deck. But if you don't like discard you may think about leaning even more draw-go. So maybe adding things like Torrential Gearhulk or other flash threats over things like The Scarab God would help keep the deck more consistent and having the same play pattern each turn. I would also cut Liliana of the Veil since you want to keep up Counterspells.
I agree on your assessment of The Scarab God. He's good against BGx but usually not much else for me. He's either too slow or too hard to defend.
Humans was usually 50/50 for me. the more removal the better (Damnation will help!) since reflector mage deals with creatures really well.
I haven't been playing UB recently so I don't have much authority to make a primer. There are a few cards from GRN that I want to try but I'm having trouble putting together a list to get started with. And the meta isn't very favorable anyway: Graveyard decks are super hard to deal with. And I'm not sure we have good enough match ups otherwise to make up for that weakness. I think playing a bunch of Unmoored Ego and Graveyard hate in the board might be good enough though so I'm interested in trying it if we can come up with a decent list.
There are certainly issues with Tap-out in UB. If you go Tap-out Thoughtscour gets a little worse and Serum Visions gets much better. But then that makes Tasigur (our best threat) worse too. I think that Discovery // Dispersal is worth trying for this reason since we can try to fill our Graveyard if we want Tasigur early. But still, Tasigur isn't perfect. The best case scenario is turn 3 without Thoughtscour which isn't worth spending Turn 1 and 2 to power out when we need him early against aggro decks.
The other issue with UB Tap-out is that counterspells get much worse. I usually just play a few Cryptic Commands and then maybe 1 other counter spell. Then I lean more on Hand and Land disruption. I played a lot of Spreading Seas and Tectonic Edge. Now that we have Unmoored Ego I think I can let up on some land disruption but I need to fill in those slots somehow and I think the deck ends up more midrange since I would lean heavier on Black.
I guess these are just the core issue with playing UB: do you want to play a Liliana / Thoughtseize deck? or a Thoughtscour / Counterspell deck? I have a lot more experience in the realm of Liliana / Thoughtseize decks so that's what my deck is going to look like.
I'm still debating a few cards in my head but here's a draft:
I would like a Nihil Spellbomb or two in the mainboard since my meta is very Dredge heavy right now but I think that's a short term issue so I'll leave this deck a little more meta-agnostic. There's a lot of air for a midrange deck but I think that's OK. I could maybe see scaling back in one area or another though. We're a bit more dependent on our graveyard than I would like to be in the current meta but again, that could change quickly. It's probably too threat-light to be considered midrange but it's more midrange than I've played previously.
I think this deck could use targeted discard and more threats. Stuff like Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek help fill your graveyard early. And I think 4 Serum Vision is important too. Liliana of the Veil does not work very well with counterspells so I would cut one of those two groups of cards. If you keep Liliana I think spell pierce is good since it's great early and can be discarded later. I think cutting Liliana is fine though since lots of counters works well with your delve creature plan. I've been playing Tombstalker in a different deck and it's been pretty good. Flying has been very relevant. but you have a lot of removal so maybe it's less important.
I would play a few more Planeswalkers as threats like Jace.
I agree that Hero's downfall is important. 1 or 2 is all I would want. Otherwise your fast creature match ups get worse.
There was one #2 Finish in a MODO competitive league on 2-20-18. That's not to say it's good but it is a glimmer of hope for this mostly dead archetype.
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=18642&d=316171&f=MO
3x Creeping Tar Pit
4x Darkslick Shores
4x Field of Ruin
1x Flooded Strand
4x Island
4x Polluted Delta
2x Swamp
2x Watery Grave
CREATURES 4
2x Snapcaster Mage
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4x Cryptic Command
2x Damnation
4x Fatal Push
2x Hero's Downfall
2x Negate
2x Remand
4x Serum Visions
OTHER SPELLS 12
4x Liliana of the Veil
2x Liliana, the Last Hope
2x Nihil Spellbomb
4x Spreading Seas
4x Collective Brutality
3x Dispel
2x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2x Negate
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Pithing Needle
I added the Kalitas he was running to my sideboard and played some last night. They felt good against the obvious strategies.
I don't have 4x Collected Brutality and I'm not sure that's necessary but that and 4x Liliana of the Veil is brutal... especially on the wallet. I don't have all those so I didn't try his build card for card. 4x Liliana of Veil seems a bit much even when budget isn't considered because I feel like she's going to be a three mana edict a lot of the time. That seems bad but I reserve the right to be wrong.
I don't care for his main deck Spellbombs but I could see how they'd be good depending on what you're expecting. I think the deck needs the Extirpate effect against some of the fringe decks one is likely to encounter. For example, extirpating Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle really neuters the Titan/Scapeshift decks that turn up on occasion.
All that said here's my take on the deck. It's been performing well and more than one of my losses has been to misplays on my part. As is usual with this archetype it's not easy to play correctly 100% of the time. By running blue black we get serious disruption and nice little late game card advantage engine in the maindeck.
3x Creeping Tarpit
1x Sunken Ruins
1x Darkslick Shores
4x Field of Ruin
4x Island
4x Polluted Delta
1x Scalding Tarn
3x Swamp
2x Watery Grave
Instant and Sorceries: 24
4x Opt
3x Fatal Push
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize
2x Disallow
1x Go for the Throat
1x Hero's Downfall
1x Countersquall
3x Cryptic Command
2x Damnation
2x Logic Knot
2x Search for Azcanta
4x Spreading Seas
Creatures: 4
3x Snapcaster Mage
1x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Planeswalkers: 3
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Liliana, the Last Hope
3x Extirpate
2x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2x Ceremonious Rejection
1x Disdainful Stroke
1x Collective Brutality
1x Geth's Verdict
1x Countersquall
1x Ratchet Bomb
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Hero's Downfall
1x Damnation
First, I just want to say dropping a Spreading Seas after looking at an opponents hand with discard can be really dirty. Sometimes this deck can just shut an opponent like Abzan out for a couple of turns that way. Those types of decks have very little use for off color mana.
Twenty three lands has felt like the right number. I started with twenty four and flooded a lot. Eight cantrips and the two Search for Azcanta help a lot. Search has been really good and I'm almost always really happy to see it. I've been running a lot of basics because I've been seeing a lot of maindeck Blood Moons on MODO.
I like Extirpate in the board because it shuts down combo combined with Thoughtseize and IOK and provides an answer other than countering every copy of pesky enchantments and artifacts we have no other answer to. It Can be used with Cryptic to answer the second copy of a resolved permanent. I like Split Second better than the Phyrexian Mana on Surgical because it can't be responded to with any of the commonly played graveyard removal. I presume there's a Morph guy that could be that's not really a thing in Modern.
Disallow has been really good for a 3 cmc Counterspell. Field of Ruin and Spreading Seas already put a lot of pressure on opposing mana bases and every now and then Disallow turns into a blue Stone Rain for fetchlands on top of them. Having them in the main versus Storm feels dirty too. Since turns one and two are spent throwing discard and two mana enchantments around the three mana hasn't been a real issue. It can be Snapped back one turn earlier than Cryptic and sometimes that's a big deal. It could answer Westvale Abbey if it can't be turned into an Island for some reason but I haven't had that issue with this particular deck.
The Geth's Verdict in the sideboard has been a bit meh but it answers Abbey and Emrukal. The Bomb in the board has been lackluster as well but it does answer artifact based decks better than most of the things we have access to in UB other than Hurkly's Recall. The Recall might be worth exploring.
I never board Liliana, the Last Hope out. Even against the control mirror she has been great for recurring Snapcaster Mage and clears opposing copies of Tiago Chan off the board. Her ultimate is a real threat but most decks just can't handle Snapcaster recursion and lots of games have been won by turning a Creeping Tarpit and a Snapcaster Mage sideways. Having her in the maindeck is also a real tilt against the various weenie decks running around Modern. I could see a situation where Lili and Geth could shut down dredge if we can maneuver into that position. I'm not sure but 3x Geth might the right number.
I could take or leave Tasigur but he turns the corner quick and provides a Jayemdae Tome effect. I activate him more in this deck than I ever did in Grixis Death's Shadow. I started playing the deck with two copies of Tasigur but cut one for the second Azcanta. I don't feel like running two of fatties just to win the game in a deck that tries to get into a position where anything could win.
Hero's Downfall has been really good for answering opposing plainswalkers while still being decent against midrange creature strategies. I leave it in the board against decks packing Thalia, Guardian of Thraben.
Grow-A-TogKeeperIf one was really worried about it they could probably hit the discard outlet with IOK or TS but I think taking a threat that's more impactful and/or harder to deal with is the better play. That's why there are five discard spells in my list. I really want to hit one turn one but I don't want to be flooded with them. I do target discard with Snapcaster on turn 3 a lot.
Jace is just another way to win the game and draw cards at the same time. I was running two but one seems like the right number. One line I've taken (when I was running two Jaces and on the play) was T1 Discard their T1 play, T2 Spreading Seas to shut off the rest of their hand, T3 Disallow a fetch land, T4 Jace to keep them off their tertiary colors while I build a dominating board position. I think that was against Abzan but that's just Magical Christmas land and isn't likely to happen again.
The thing with decks like this is even though it looks like a bunch of 1 and 2 of's their's a real redundancy of effects.
Grow-A-TogKeeper1x Bloodstained Mire
2x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Darkslick Shores
4x Field of Ruin
3x Island
4x Polluted Delta
1x Scalding Tarn
1x Steam Vents
3x Swamp
2x Watery Grave
Creature (5)
3x Snapcaster Mage
1x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1x Wurmcoil Engine
Instant (16)
1x Cast Down
4x Cryptic Command
1x Disallow
3x Fatal Push
1x Hero's Downfall
2x Logic Knot
3x Opt
1x Shadow of Doubt
2x Damnation
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize
Planeswalker (3)
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
Enchantment (6)
2x Search for Azcanta Flip
4x Spreading Seas
Artifact (1)
1x Engineered Explosives
2x By Force
1x Collective Brutality
1x Countersquall
1x Dispel
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Extirpate
2x Flaying Tendrils
2x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
2x Rain of Tears
I've still been playing this in the practice room on MODO to good effect. I've made a few changes to help it compete against some of the more common decks in the format and completely revamped the sideboard to focus on dealing with the fast and aggressive decks.
The more I play it the more I prefer Jace in this build. His fate seal ability comes up as a win condition a lot in this deck from what I've seen.
Engineered Explosives helps against Bogles and any deck that creates a lot of tokens. I still haven't seen any more Lingering Souls decks though. Liliana is still good but she's slow so one is in the sideboard now.
Rain of Tears has been good out of the sideboard in control mirrors but it's really there for Valukut, the Molten Pinnacle and Tron. I moved to a second creature based win condition so there are more ways to pressure them after disrupting their mana. I still need more play time against these decks but the Wurmcoil Engine gives a fourth life gain effect against burn and Goblins. I haven't seen Boros based burn in a week but I've seen some Goblins and this version is pretty good against them post board.
Flaying Tendrils has been an all-star against Voice of Resurgence, Etched Champion, and the aforementioned Goblin decks.
Since I'm running the EE's now I put a single Steam Vents in to tick it up to three against planeswalkers and Dentention Sphere. That's been good and it allows for a couple of real artifact removal spells out of the sideboard. I suppose one could run a Hallowed Fountain and Disenchant instead but the By Forces have been good against the usual suspects - Lantern and Affinity. The decks I want them against don't put a lot of pressure on the mana base so it seem fine and is very similar to how burn runs Destructive Revelry.
The singleton Shadow of Doubt is really functioning as Spreading Seas number five and has been pulling its own weight or once. Aside from being good against Tron and decks running Gifts Ungiven it also works well with Spreading Seas. This is because it punishes decks for trying to play around Spreading Seas by holding up fetch lands.
The second Disallow hasn't been as good as the fourth Cryptic Command so that's in now. The shenanigans that occur with Snapcaster and Cryptic can just win games.
Cast Down has been fine. It doesn't hit either Thalia but those decks have plenty of other targets for it so it hasn't been an issue.
I've been seeing more decks running more basics and have been thinking about running at least a couple copies of Tectonic Edge instead of some of the Field of Ruins.
Search for Azcanta and Jace have been really good at digging for specific cards when they're needed.
Grow-A-TogKeeper1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Creatures (6)
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Snapcaster Mage
Other Spells (25)
1 Go for the Throat
2 Cryptic Command
2 Damnation
2 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thought Scour
4 Fatal Push
4 Serum Visions
4 Spreading Seas
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Swamp
3 Watery Grave
3 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Field of Ruin
3 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Darkslick Shores
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Murderous Cut
1 Logic Knot
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Dispel
1 Collective Brutality
1 Go for the Throat
1 Damnation
4x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Drowned Catacomb
5x Island
1x Nephalia Drownyard
4x Polluted Delta
1x Sunken Ruins
3x Swamp
4x Tectonic Edge
2x Watery Grave
Planeswalker (7)
2x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3x Liliana of the Veil
3x Cryptic Command
3x Fatal Push
1x Hero's Downfall
1x Logic Knot
1x Shadow of Doubt
Sorcery (10)
3x Damnation
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Serum Visions
1x Thoughtseize
Enchantment (6)
2x Search for Azcanta
4x Spreading Seas
Creature (3)
3x Snapcaster Mage
1x Cast Down
2x Collective Brutality
3x Countersquall
1x Dispel
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Flaying Tendrils
2x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
2x To the Slaughter
1x Vendilion Clique
I'm constantly tweaking the deck but the number of cards I consider "flex slots" is dropping, assuming my meta stays relatively stable.
I see people are avoiding playing Liliana of the Veil. She has been quite the power house in my list. I was apprehensive at first but once I started playing her I felt the deck's power level go up a lot. Ashiok is another card I'd like to see more of in the archetype. There are certainly games where she is useless (delve creatures, hollow one, combo decks, none of which are popular in my meta so I may be biased here...) but she is great so often. Against any midrange or control deck I feel like I can't lose and then against aggro Ashiok is a great win con after the dust has settled after a Damnation.
I'm interested in the rationale behind Depian's list running 0 cheap counter spells in the main. I've been dropping them a lot and relegating them to the sideboard and it's been working really well for me so I'm happy I'm not alone.
Any thoughts on my list? I've been doing pretty well the last few months (averaging about a 2-1 in my local meta) But the last two weeks have been 0-3 and 0-2 with a BYE. I've been getting beaten up by aggro so I'm trying Kalitas and Tendrils in the board. I've been debating going up another cheap kill spell in the main like Cast Down but not sure what to cut.
I have a love-hate relationship with tasigur. He is great at all stages of the game: he can come down early and save you tons of life / apply pressure or he can come down late and generate a little card advantage. The issue is he's quite the lightning rod. He doesn't die to much but if your opponent has path to exile you are screwed because you invested a lot of resources into your one card. He also forces you to play some number of thoughtscour which is not the card I want to play in a control deck. I would rather be playing search for azcanta, serum visions, and lots of damnations personally. But maybe this is another leak like Liliana of the Veil. Maybe I'm over analyzing and I should just be playing the powerful card. I'm not sure.
One thing I'm skeptical on with your friend's list is the third Jace. I'm playing a slower deck and I've found 2 Jace to be a great number. Jace is a really slow card and requires a lot of support so I would hate to see 2 of them.
I beat G Tron 2-0. I got enough Spreading Seas, Tec Edges, and Creeping Tar Pits to win both games. He landed a couple Karns but they were never good enough because each time I had more than 1 Tar Pit so he didn't get anywhere.
Lost to Hardened Scales 0-2. I had no clue what I was doing so I got crushed... His hands were so good I don't think I could have constructed a winning hand besides 3x Damnation 4x Land. I'm sure if I had more removal I could have put up a fight.
I beat GB Eldrazi 2-1 by the skin of my teeth. Game 1 Ashiok stole a couple Eldrazi and I won easily. Game 2 I got crushed by a pile of Eldrazi. He game me a couple extra turns to draw into a Damnation but I never found it. Game 3 He surgical extractioned all my Jace and Lilianas... but I had a Kalitas with 2 counters on it which dominated the game against all his smaller Eldrazi.
Overall a good run. I'm very happy with a 2-1. I think I'll drop the Shadow of Doubt. It's a little too situational in my current meta I think. Any ideas for dealing with Hardened Scales?
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/modern-challenge-2018-07-29
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Creature (4)
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Torrential Gearhulk
Sorcery (4)
2 Damnation
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
Instant (21)
1 Cast Down
1 Countersquall
4 Cryptic Command
4 Fatal Push
2 Hero's Downfall
3 Logic Knot
4 Opt
1 Remand
1 Spell Snare
2 Search for Azcanta
3 Spreading Seas
Land (24)
3 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Drowned Catacomb
4 Field of Ruin
6 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
2 Countersquall
3 Collective Brutality
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Vendilion Clique
Spreading Seas seems a bit strange in this deck. I'd rather stick to draw go or tap out. I guess Tron is probably good enough that it's worth it.
With so many versions is it possible to make a coherent primer? Let me know if I can help.
0-2 against G Tron. Close games but I wasn't able to win fast enough.
0-2 against titanshift. Usually a pretty good match up but I didn't have enough counter / discard to do much. Lost to scapeshift both times.
2-0 against eldrazi tron. Game 1 he mulled to 5. Game 2 I dismantled his hand with discard and cryptic and won with a quick jace.
2-0 against grixis control. Liliana of the Veil totally wrecks this deck. He was playing young pyromancer main board which didn't do much either game.
1-2 against UW control without terminus. I won game 1 by out grinding him and then way too many lands the next two games.
Here's the list I took: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/ub-superfriends-control/
1x Bojuka Bog
4x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Drowned Catacomb
5x Island
4x Polluted Delta
1x Sunken Ruins
3x Swamp
4x Tectonic Edge
2x Watery Grave
Planeswalker (6)
2x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Liliana of the Veil
Instant (9)
3x Cryptic Command
1x Dismember
3x Fatal Push
1x Hero's Downfall
1x Logic Knot
2x Collective Brutality
3x Damnation
1x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Serum Visions
1x Thoughtseize
Enchantment (6)
2x Search for Azcanta
4x Spreading Seas
Artifact (1)
1x Nihil Spellbomb
Creature (2)
2x Snapcaster Mage
1x Collective Brutality
3x Countersquall
1x Disdainful Stroke
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Flaying Tendrils
2x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Nihil Spellbomb
2x To the Slaughter
2x Vendilion Clique
I wasn't expecting all big mana and control... but at least I didn't play bridgevine
These GY decks have been really tough. Otherwise I feel pretty good with my match ups.
Leylines might be our only hope. Spellbombs feel too weak to me. Maybe I just need to play more copies.
4x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Drowned Catacomb
5x Island
4x Polluted Delta
1x Sunken Ruins
3x Swamp
4x Tectonic Edge
2x Watery Grave
Planeswalker (6)
2x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Liliana of the Veil
Artifact (1)
1x Nihil Spellbomb
Instant (10)
3x Cryptic Command
1x Dismember
3x Fatal Push
1x Hero's Downfall
2x Logic Knot
1x Collective Brutality
3x Damnation
1x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Serum Visions
1x Thoughtseize
Creature (3)
2x Snapcaster Mage
1x Vendilion Clique
Enchantment (6)
2x Search for Azcanta
4x Spreading Seas
3x Countersquall
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Flaying Tendrils
2x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
3x Leyline of the Void
1x Pithing Needle
1x Rain of Tears
2x To the Slaughter
1x Vendilion Clique
1-2 against Humans. All three games were very close! He just had infinite Mantis Riders which happens to be the hardest card in the deck to deal with for us I think.
Out: 1x Jace, 1x Search for Azcanta, Spellbomb, 2x Logic Knot, Thoughtseize
In: Explosives, Tendrils, 2x Kalitas, Clique, Pithing Needle
1-0 against UW Control. I won game 1 since my opponent drew like 10 lands early. Then we went to time.
Out: 3x Push, 3x Damnation, Dismember, 1x Spreading Seas
In: 3x Countersquall, Pithing Needle, Rain of Tears, 2x To the Slaughter, Clique
2-0 agianst Jund Blood Moon. game 1 was pretty easy since we just killed each other's threats and then I won the long game. Game 2 He got rid of all 4 planeswalkers that I kept in very early on, stuck a blood moon and then it was a slow grind. I ended up winning with 0 cards in my library. Very fun games!
Out: 2x Liliana, Thoughseize, Inquisition, 1x Damnation
In: 2x Kalitas, 2x Slaughterpact, Clique
Leylines never came up and I think more spellbombs would have been better in the match ups I face. I think Spellbombs are good enough against the graveyard decks too, especially if I have a lot of them. I think I'll switch out the Leylines for spellbombs. Pithing needle also wasn't very useful, and I don't think it's good enough against Humans.
I tried 2x Logic Knot in the mainboard and it was a bit awkward with Liliana but it was nice seeing counter magic slightly more often.
Thought Erasure is a good replacement for Thoughtseize I think. It costs extra but has minor value in the late game. The 2 life is very relevant against a lot of decks and we don't need discard on turn 1 all the time. But on the other hand you can't overload on these. Depending on how much discard you want in your deck this could be a 2-of mainboard I think. It's very underpowered though so I'm not jumping out of my seat right now.
Unmoored Ego is a sweet card and is useful in a lot of match ups. It's only a sideboard card though. It could be a good catch all in the sideboard and free up slots. It handily wins the Tron, Valakut, KCI, and Ad Naus match ups on its own: some tough match ups here. It can help a lot against storm but you need to be smart about what you're taking. More silver bullets like this are very nice but The big players in the meta don't care too much. So maybe we just go for it and play 4 of these in the board / 4 graveyard hate cards and fill the rest with ways to win the fair match ups. We generally have 50%+ fair match ups anyway so It's not the worst sideboard plan.
What cards are you interested in specifically? Neither of these seem to rocket us into a competitive place in the meta but they are welcome additions.
4x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Drowned Catacomb
4x Field of Ruin
5x Island
4x Polluted Delta
1x Sunken Ruins
3x Swamp
2x Watery Grave
Planeswalker (6)
2x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Liliana of the Veil
Artifact (1)
1x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Countersquall
3x Cryptic Command
1x Dismember
3x Fatal Push
1x Hero's Downfall
2x Logic Knot
Sorcery (11)
3x Damnation
4x Serum Visions
2x Thought Erasure
2x Thoughtseize
Enchantment (2)
2x Search for Azcanta
Creature (4)
3x Snapcaster Mage
1x Vendilion Clique
2x Collective Brutality
1x Countersquall
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Flaying Tendrils
1x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2x Nihil Spellbomb
1x To the Slaughter
4x Unmoored Ego
That said, your deck could be more focused. I think Ancestral Visions is too slow for your deck. And as much as I dislike the card your deck really wants thoughtscour and probably some number of serum visions.
In this type of deck Liliana of the Veil is pretty good, so maybe cut some counter spells for more Veils since she doesn't synergize with counters. Along with this you want to play some targeted discard.
Tendrills and Languish are a little strange. Even with that many creatures you can play a couple Damnation instead of these wipes.
All of these suggestions are under the assumption you want to play a more midrangey build. if you want to be more controlling play more damnation and cut a lot of the creatures. Logic Knot is another good option for both builds.
So there are sort of two ways to build this deck: tap-out and draw-go. Obviously you'll have some sorcery speed stuff in draw-go but you want to keep it to a minimum. I enjoy tap-out a bit more becuase I think discard and planeswalkers are the more powerful way to play the deck. But if you don't like discard you may think about leaning even more draw-go. So maybe adding things like Torrential Gearhulk or other flash threats over things like The Scarab God would help keep the deck more consistent and having the same play pattern each turn. I would also cut Liliana of the Veil since you want to keep up Counterspells.
I agree on your assessment of The Scarab God. He's good against BGx but usually not much else for me. He's either too slow or too hard to defend.
Humans was usually 50/50 for me. the more removal the better (Damnation will help!) since reflector mage deals with creatures really well.
There are certainly issues with Tap-out in UB. If you go Tap-out Thoughtscour gets a little worse and Serum Visions gets much better. But then that makes Tasigur (our best threat) worse too. I think that Discovery // Dispersal is worth trying for this reason since we can try to fill our Graveyard if we want Tasigur early. But still, Tasigur isn't perfect. The best case scenario is turn 3 without Thoughtscour which isn't worth spending Turn 1 and 2 to power out when we need him early against aggro decks.
The other issue with UB Tap-out is that counterspells get much worse. I usually just play a few Cryptic Commands and then maybe 1 other counter spell. Then I lean more on Hand and Land disruption. I played a lot of Spreading Seas and Tectonic Edge. Now that we have Unmoored Ego I think I can let up on some land disruption but I need to fill in those slots somehow and I think the deck ends up more midrange since I would lean heavier on Black.
I guess these are just the core issue with playing UB: do you want to play a Liliana / Thoughtseize deck? or a Thoughtscour / Counterspell deck? I have a lot more experience in the realm of Liliana / Thoughtseize decks so that's what my deck is going to look like.
I'm still debating a few cards in my head but here's a draft:
4 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Drowned Catacomb
5 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Sunken Ruins
3 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
4 Field of Ruin
Planeswalkers (6)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
3 Liliana of the Veil
Enchantments (2)
2 Search for Azcanta
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Serum Visions
3 Fatal Push
2 Discovery // Dispersal
1 Cast Down
1 Collective Brutality
1 Hero's Downfall
3 Cryptic Command
2 Damnation
Creatures (7)
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
3 Countersquall
4 Unmoored Ego
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 To the Slaughter
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Damnation
I would like a Nihil Spellbomb or two in the mainboard since my meta is very Dredge heavy right now but I think that's a short term issue so I'll leave this deck a little more meta-agnostic. There's a lot of air for a midrange deck but I think that's OK. I could maybe see scaling back in one area or another though. We're a bit more dependent on our graveyard than I would like to be in the current meta but again, that could change quickly. It's probably too threat-light to be considered midrange but it's more midrange than I've played previously.
Thoughts on the list?
The mtgo user Jaberwocki has had some success with a Thing in the Ice build, a bit more midrange / tempo / Draw-go: https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=20123&d=330943&f=MO
I would play a few more Planeswalkers as threats like Jace.
I agree that Hero's downfall is important. 1 or 2 is all I would want. Otherwise your fast creature match ups get worse.
I'm not sure if it qualifies as "UB Control" but it seems to be a much slower Fae list.