We could go crazy with Dungrove Elders, Troll Ascetics, and Thrun, the Last Trolls as our primary source of beatdown entirely. Streamline the mana ramp so we can angle for T2/T3 and be heavy set on the LD package. Imagine a list they can't interact with, for the most part.
Could be a worthwhile direction. Could be a waste of time, but will most certainly be fun.
Don't worry... Fatal Pushes will be used on our dorks first! Keeping on the hexproof theme (which I love, and is starting to pick up steam again in Modern it seems), would you be opposed to subbing out Llanowar for Sylvan Caryatid? I just hate how dork removal puts us so behind. Granted the wall is not as fast, but it does help with aggro, and won't get removed as easily. Arbor Elf is a necessary evil, and has to stay. Anything that gives us T2 LD is mandatory.
I get not wanting our creatures to die to removal but doesn't Eternal Witness help to fight through those removal spells? Just EWit back our creatures and then we can even EWit back the old EWit and keep doing it over again. And if we run out of EWits in the deck, we can kamikaze them (if they've survived getting on the board) and just Primal Command to shuffle them back in and search one up. Have you guys found that this isn't enough in the way of resiliency?
I understand that our dorks will take the brunt of the removal spells but I think that was the reason the original list played the extra Elvish Mystics/Llanowar Elves (so that we're not only relying on T1 Arbor Elf) and Sakura-Tribe Elder (so that we have a T2 play if we don't have Utopia Sprawl).
Something that I've thought about that goes along with the resiliency aspect -- Deathmist Raptor/Den Protector combo. Deathmist Raptor is a relatively cheap CMC creature that can play both offense and defense for us. Den Protector is almost another Eternal Witness and can potentially get back Raptors for free if we're using the ability. She's got a bit of evasion too. The downside is that the 'combo' can require a bit of setup and can potentially be mana intensive but I also think both cards can play well on their own. Also, finding places to cut in the deck can be a hard task. Most of our lists seem pretty tight. I doubt we could spare some space.
I could be wrong, but if you are using Eternal Witness for mana dorks, you are in rough shape. They are the critical puzzle piece to keep our opponent on lock with Primal Command, or digging up a much needed LD spell.
As for your Raptor combo, it's a cool concept, but I think the core group here has attempted to go down those types of rabbit holes and always comeback to focusing on LD, and locking down our opponent. We want minimal, resilient, hard hitting creatures, that can finish a game for us. That being said the original concept did have a creature loop, so I could be wrong! Always awesome to keep thinking of ways to push this deck, so try out your theory, and let the group know your results.
Thinking about the Sylvan Caryatid...seems like a solid replacement for the Mystics. Think about it...they're slower, but if we're using Mystic as a T1 play instead of Arbor Elf, we're already not getting a T2 LD. I wouldn't play Caryatid over Steve, but Caryatid does ensure that we get a T3 LD if we hit our land drops, where Mystic does not. Important distinction to make there. Good call on the caryatid! Am I wrong here? Is Caryatid not a strictly better path to T3 LD than Mystic? Aside from losing out on a T2 Trinisphere with an undisrupted Mystic I suppose...Which can be big. It also assumes we can hit 3 consecutive land drops into a T3 LD spell.
T1 Mystic > T2 Tribe Elder > 5 Mana possible T3, but requires a hand that starts with land, and elf, and steve.
T1 > T2 Caryatid > 4 Mana T3, but undisruptable with a starting hand of 2-3 land and a caryatid.
We could go even further if we really wanted to, and drop the Utopia Sprawls/Arbor Elves/mystics all together for a full playset of Caryatid/Steve, free up more slots for threats, and have completely undisruptable ramp, albeit a bit slower, but a nearly guarenteed T3 LD every single game. This would also simplify what counts as a keeper hand by a large margin, and would open up the use of more utility lands since we're not so paranoid about optimizing for T2 explosiveness.
I'm gonna try varying degrees of this in conjunction with the hexproof threats and get back to you guys. I think I'm liking the idea of consistency over potential explosiveness.
edit: reading a bit more, it looks like we'd need more lands if we're counting on our 3rd land drop by turn 3. Looks like 23 is the absolute minimum to have a ~90% chance of hitting 3 consecutive land drops. A list that went that direction would almost certainly want to prioritize topdeck filtering or card draw, and include 4-6 fetches. So basically, one needs to decide whether they want to go all in on the explosiveness, or on the consistency. Its up to the pilot to choose which is of more value, and build around that. Trying to have the best of both worlds dilutes the end result.
Yea, no, that little bit about having mana dorks was more in response to what you were saying about how "dork removal puts us so behind" and how the original list was built with that in mind. I was speaking more in regards to using EWit to get back our more impactful creatures or whatever slots people are trying to make for creatures like Thrun, the Last Troll or Dungrove Elders. I guess I was trying to say instead of trying to blank the removal, why not just use EWit to get back whatever has been removed. Its not like we're only limited to the 4 copies in the deck since we have main-deck access to Primal Command's shuffle and grab effects. I think those creatures can be fine additions but I'd be careful not to water-down the deck for fear of removal when we're already built to be fairly resilient.
As for watered-down, I agree that Raptor combo would probably take up too many slots dedicated to our main objective. Just figured I'd keep throwing stuff out to see what sticks.
I think Sylvan Caryatid is something to try out but I don't think I'd drop all the Turn 1 ramp cards. I feel like with only Tribe Elder and Caryatid you'd risk limiting your sub-optimal draws in favor of protecting your optimal draw when you actually have it. For instance, with a 'classic' build, you can very well not have a dork on T1, find it T2, and potentially still have the 4-mana play on T3. If you miss a T2 Caryatid/Steve in a no-dork build then you never have the T3 4-mana play. Also, in the no-dork version, you'll always require 3 lands on T3 while a build with mana-elves can make it work with less. I think the lines/probabilities are pretty complex with the 'classic' build so its hard to really tell. I think at the very least I'd keep in Utopia Sprawl since it's least susceptible to common removal. I'd be interested to see how it works out for you.
I'm really enjoying exploring all these new options
[quote from="TheRope »" url="/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/790575-mono-green-control?comment=106"]
I think Sylvan Caryatid is something to try out but I don't think I'd drop all the Turn 1 ramp cards. I feel like with only Tribe Elder and Caryatid you'd risk limiting your sub-optimal draws in favor of protecting your optimal draw when you actually have it. For instance, with a 'classic' build, you can very well not have a dork on T1, find it T2, and potentially still have the 4-mana play on T3. If you miss a T2 Caryatid/Steve in a no-dork build then you never have the T3 4-mana play. Also, in the no-dork version, you'll always require 3 lands on T3 while a build with mana-elves can make it work with less. I think the lines/probabilities are pretty complex with the 'classic' build so its hard to really tell. I think at the very least I'd keep in Utopia Sprawl since it's least susceptible to common removal. I'd be interested to see how it works out for you.
I'm really enjoying exploring all these new options
Oh I'm certainly not arguing that it limits optimal draws, but the chances of not drawing 1 of 8 2mana accelerators in your starting hand is highly unlikely, and you only need 1. Plus this build would definitely run slightly more lands and coursers.
It's a bit of a toss up. Accepting inconsistency in the name of having a certain percentage of explosive games that our opponents simply never have a chance of recovering from might actually be the best line, statistically. But its always worth testing out other strategies as well.
Sideboard:
1 Creeping Corrosion
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Obstinate Baloth
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Trinisphere
I've been going 3-1 the last couple of weeks at my local modern event.
The biggest differences that I can see are the inclusion of Beast Within and Walking Ballista. Both added additional removal to the deck. Since I've added them, the games seem to me to be more under my control. I have more options than when I wasn't running them.
I haven't tried the Leylines in the sideboard yet, but I put them in just recently to deal with my worst matchup - Burn
Sorry I haven’t had the opportunity to say anything in this thread until now. I’ve read through it all to catch myself up on what people think in regards to the deck, and I’m impressed with how much thought you all have put in.
I can’t quote everyone that I want to, so I’ll just list my thoughts on things I read in general:
1. My list has been designed for consistency as much as possible. My goal has been to ensure at least one of my mana accelerants is still on the board past turn 2 for land destruction turn 3. It’s why I ran 15 sources of early ramp.
2. On the idea of other paths people have taken the deck: people seemed to have found the concern I discovered early on when building; adding threats and silver bullets can dilute the deck too far if too many are added. That’s why my current list has about 3 ‘Threat’ slots maindeck. While my updated list posted above chooses 2 Walking Ballista ans 1 Hornet Queen, I plan to change that for testing purposes. I’ll get back to that in a minute.
3. The bounce duo I run: Compared to something like the raptor loop posted somewhere above, I feel mine is very card-light, going back to the issues talked about with consistency and limited slots in a deck. They also interact with Eternal Witness and Acidic Slime very nicely, or block Tasigur/Hollow One one-for-one at the worst otherwise. The ability to completely lock out the game if your opponent’s hand is dead just off of Primal Command also helps justify them.
4. On the topic of other threats people are running in that slot: the most interesting ones I’ve seen mentioned here in my mind are Nissa, Vital Force and Deus of Calamity. If I can get hold of some at FNM tonight, I might very well test one or both of them within my flex slots.
5. On Trinisphere: I have been working to find slots to take out for it maindeck. Tonight, I plan to test taking out three of the Sakura-Tribe Elders for it, and taking out the last Sakura for a Llanowar Elves to help facilitate Turn 2 Trinispheres more often.
I’m thankful for all your help in making this deck the best it can be.
I consider the threats ran the most flexible part of the deck. Hornet Queen and Walking Ballista could be changed out based on the meta more so than other cards in my list for threats based on the meta; they are my ‘silver bullet’ cards at the moment. Maybe ‘flex slots’ wasn’t the right wording? But if anything in my list was to be most prone to switching strictly for meta reasons, it’d be the threat silver bullet slots. Hornet Queen, for example, wouldn’t help much if the meta was made up of RG Tron and Burn, but is great when we see Humans and Jund.
It feels like our deck has a tendency to draw the wrong half of the deck as often as we draw into our money spells. This is of course a downside of any ramp deck, but is especially pronounced when our payoff spells are Sorceries that need to be played T2/3, and consecutively in order to give us the momentum we need to win. coming back from behind is incredibly difficult if our opponent gets some creatures out from under our plays, and especially if we can't Primal for Hornet Queen or make a big enough Ballista before we die.
I'm also torn between Root Maze and Trinisphere:
On one hand, if we have ramp, Root Maze is significantly better for us in midgame, as we can keep ramping while playing payoff spells in one turn.
On the other, Trinisphere is an actual lock piece when combined with LD.
The downsides of both are:
Rootmaze still allows the opponent to play their spells in the early game, and handrips/creature removal completely screws us.
Trinisphere keeps us from ramping as soon as it comes down.
I will say that Trinisphere has a more consistent effect on the game, where as rootmaze was only really good for the first few turns if the opponent had mostly fetches/shocks, or if I drew into Plow Under. Root Maze was also not an optimal draw if I had all lands and insufficient ramp for an LD effect.
Overall, when this deck does what its intended to do, the opponent just doesn't get to play Magic. At all. But I find that to be around 20% of games or so. Maybe I'm not mulliganing enough, maybe I'm missing lines of play, maybe my meta is just especially punishing, but I feel like the deck still...needs...something, to give it that little bit of consistency and synergy it needs to truly get there.
Card draw and topdeck filtering are something I especially notice a lack of. Others have used Courser of Kruphix in the past, and while not especially optimal, he certainly is something where we currently have nothing. Tracker can be good, but often we're just not getting enough land drops for him to be relevant, with only 20 lands in the deck. Nissa, Sage Animist would be great but she just comes out too slow, Harmonize is too expensive and may as well just be an LD spell itself, Oath Of Nissa bottoms all the spells we actually want...Lifecrafter's Bestiary is super nice but I'm not sure its worth a slot.
Walking Ballista's on 1 and 2 have been the strongest addition in my experience, sometimes its a bummer to use them so early, but its usually a positive pay off, and a primary target for Ewits. I think making room for 3 is definitely a must.
I tried out Deus of Calamity again tonight. He's fun when he does his job, but often times, I just wish he was a Primeval Titan. Getting to 8 mana is kind of a second sweet spot for us...we can set a Ballista to 4, play two LD effects, play Ewit and Primal, reload a ballista twice...As soon as Primal comes down, we gain a massive boost in inevitability. I just don't think Deus of Calamity does that to near the same effect.
One thing I've noticed is that I just about never go for the Stampeding lock. Can someone help me with some optimal lines to make that effective?
One cool play I got to make tonight was in a grindy matchup against 8rack.
My opponent dropped an ensnaring bridge on my 4/4 ballista, so I shot him 3 times, swung with him as a 1/1, activated pendelhaven before damage, then reloaded it twice and shot my opponent for lethal. Probably the most satisfying win with this deck so far, purely because the match lasted about 20 minutes, and I was dead to Rack next turn.
So I saw this list on mtgtop8 awhile ago and after playing with the stock list, made some changes. I know the deck wants to try to tempo out the opponent with EWit and Command but I always found myself wanting to search for a bomb or Acidic Slime. I was blown away at the power of Cloudthresher and underwhelmed with Chameleon Colossus. So, here's the list I've been running and I guess I'll throw some more notes out after.
On Devotion: I know most of you guys are on the Nykthos plan with untapping effects but outside of the explosive Utopia Sprawl + Arbor Elf draws, you can just ramp into 5 mana on turn 3 and usually out-tempo your opponent from there. I can see where the interest in Devotion is coming from but I think it dilutes what the deck is trying to do; namely prevent our opponents from playing relevant Magic cards. So focusing more on disrupting their manabase seems to work best for me.
On Bombs: I think Carnage Tyrant is pretty much unbeatable for most decks and he is a very real threat on turn 3/4. To be fair, I haven't played with Prime Time but I can't see myself really wanting to ramp that much more once I've hit 6+ mana in play. Cloudthresher has been amazing at allowing me to play on Control's terms. Flash from a Mono-G deck is unusual and if you are passing with 6 mana up, opponents usually think you bricked for a turn. The 2 damage to flyers and players is usually relevant and it also is just a giant 7/7 dude. Also, if you guys haven't played with Steel Hellkite, you need to get on that train. It's a one-sided Engineered Explosives on a 5/5 flying mana sink. It does everything the deck wants to be doing.
On Bestiary: mistahARK just mentioned that he thinks the deck is lacking card draw/filtering and as he mentioned Lifecrafter's Bestiary does just that. It can come down turn 2 and is at worst a free Scry 1 every Upkeep. Late game it turns all of your dorks into redraws and 6 mana for an Acidic Slime that draws a card (effectively becoming a 2-for-0) is amazing. It competes with lock pieces but I think the added consistency is well worth it. I'd highly recommend giving it a try.
On No EWit: I mentioned above how I never really found myself wanting to go for the Eternal Command loop. I definitely respect the power of the interaction but what gets me about it, is that you are spending 8 mana to blank a draw and a land drop from the opponent. Which on paper sounds like a repeatable Time Walk but it doesn't allow you to interact with what is already in play or in the opponent's hand. So putting a 2/1 into play and blanking a draw just ended up feeling underwhelming when the opponent can still just play other things from their hand. Also, being able to let Primal Command be "gain 7 life + top a permanent/tutor for a fatty" is important for the myriad of aggressive decks out there right now. I just found the value in the loop to be more cute than effective, so I dropped the EWits to make room for more consistent ramp and land destruction.
The sideboard should definitely have a Thragtusk, I'll have to figure out where to slot that in. Beast Within or Dismember should probably also be in the deck somewhere as well. I have found Infect to be almost unbeatable and having a way to keep them off of Blighted Agent is probably worth looking into.
I'm going to be playing it tomorrow night at my LGS's weekly Modern event and I'll let you guys know how it goes. Also, feel free to critique my list. I think it's pretty good but having other sets of eyes is almost always a good thing.
WARNING: Wall of text ahead. Apologies in advance.
Any reason you guys aren't running Treetop Village? I've got 3 in the list I'm using and I've seen little downside. Yes, there have been one or two instances where I had wished to draw an untapped green source instead, but most of the time it has not impacted playing spells on curve. If anything, it's been helpful when we sometimes have those "do nothing" turns -- when we're playing just a bit off-curve and it can chip in a little bit of damage in the meantime. Or in the later game when we need to start closing out the game with attackers and have extra mana to spend.
Like Capt. Nick, I've still been a fan of Cloudthresher. We really have no way to touch smaller fliers (like Spirit Tokens) or a way to play outside of Sorcery speed to catch our opponent by surprise and 'Thresher does help a bit. I really do like having Hornet Queen in the main and I could see eventually shaving a copy of 'Thresher for The Queen. I sometimes struggle to regularly hit 7 mana though, especially against faster decks.
I've been trying out Root Maze in the main and I like it overall but I'm also a little on the fence about it. It's pretty great against most decks by punishing fetches and keeps people mana starved when we start bouncing/destroying lands and they can never make up lost ground. The downside for us is pretty minimal since we have dorks/Sprawls to sort of balance out the slowed mana production. We usually tend to build up extra lands with cards like Acid-Moss and STE too. The thing I don't really like about it is finding the right time in the game to play it. The optimal time is obviously Turn 1 when we're on the play. But at times when we're not on the play I contemplate whether or not to play a Turn 1 dork/Sprawl instead. If I play dork first, sometimes Maze gets stuck in my hand as I continue to curve out and by then it doesn't really make an impact. If I play Maze first, I risk stumbling on my own mana while the opponent slowly creeps ahead. The other obvious downside is that it isn't good in multiples. Or when in topdeck mode. It also doesn't do much to stop decks that don't rely on fetches or are mono-colored.
On no Ewit -- I don't know how I feel about that, though I will admit that sometimes 4 seems like it could be too many. I could see potentially trimming to 3 (definitely no less) in order to avoid having too many in the opening turns. Yes, putting a 2/1 into play and blanking an opponent's next draw seems underwhelming when they can just play cards from their hand but the fact of the matter is that they're not drawing more spells. And we're putting more threats/bodies into play in the meantime. Eventually their hand will get empty and they'll have to just sit and watch us play Magic while they can't. I also feel like EWit does more for us than just looping Primals too. She gets back anything from our graveyard that's been discarded or destroyed and that means opponents potentially have to burn through twice their discard or removal. EWit is about as close to Snapcaster Mage as we're going to get in green. Even if EWit is only good for Primal looping, playing multiple Primals is our own way to get card advantage/draw gas and sometimes keep our lifetotal high against more aggressive decks. If I were to cut a looping aspect of the deck, it would probably be the Stampeding Serow/Stampeding Wildebeests/Roaring Primadox before I touch Eternal Witness.
I also wanted to spitball some potential card ideas. Some may be bad, but at least we can say we've thought about it. No need to address them all but it'd be interesting to hear thoughts on anything worth testing:
Somberwald Stag/Territorial Allosaurus/Foe-Razer Regent -- Tutorable "removal" with Primal. Stag may be too fragile to survive entering the battlefield and Allosaurus' kicker may a bit to costly if we need it early. Regent may be too costly too
Channeler Initiate -- Early mana dork that can turn into a mid/late game 'threat'. 2 mana is realatively costly though. And 3/4 probably isn't strong enough.
Jadelight Ranger -- I played an earlier version with Ranger in it and liked it. Potentially a 4/3, Scry 2 for 3 mana. Not exactly a budget friendly addition though. (around $10 a pop as of now)
Mold Shambler -- I think this is run in Pauper LD decks. Maybe too puny/low-powered for Modern
Verdurous Gearhulk -- On its own its an 8/8 Trampler for 5 mana. Can also buff our 1- and 2-powered creatures and we can rinse and repeat with bounce creatures in play
Brutalizer Exarch -- A mini Primal Command on a 3/3. Repeatable with bounce
Woodland Bellower -- Tutors EWit straight onto the battlefield and leaves a 6/5 body
Pelakka Wurm -- 7/7 Trample, 7 life, draw a card. What more could you want?
I think cutting Ewit is a mistake. She is currently the only card advantage we have, and even if you're not going for the Primal Loop, she puts things back in your hand.
Steel Hellkite is something I looked at, but ultimately decided that his boardwipe effect comes out too slowly, he's weak to artifact hate (which is in every sideboard), and competes with Walking Ballista and Hornet Queen, which are both far better at controlling the board in ways that we very much care about.
I still think Cloudthresher was one of the greatest strengths of the original build, and wish I could make room for more in my current build, but again...Queen and Ballistas.
I agree that the bounce creatures feel like something I'd like to cut. I'd like to watch Neilson set up his lock a few times to see if there's just something I'm missing, but I'd rather have more Ballistas or more LD at this point. I feel that the natural casting of a few Primal Commands, even looped with Eternal 2-3 times is plenty of tempo advantage for us, and that we need big things to do with that tempo advantage. Additionally, only in the most optimal of circumstances does a primal command loop actually lock the game in my favor, usually they have creatures out, or spells in hand that they can still play, which forces me to tutor for an answer, rather than another Ewit. The loop just feels too expensive and clunky, and I'd rather have something else to do.
I'm not especially sure how I feel about the idea of cutting Tribe-elders for Mystics. On one hand, Mystics set us up for T2 Trini. On the other, Mystics are easily and usually bolted, and Tribe Elder is guarenteed ramp/blocks for a turn. However, Tribe Elder does not work well with either the T1 Root Maze plan, nor the T2 Trinisphere play, so...
On ramping vs playing lock pieces...that requires some knowledge of your opponents deck and how he plans to disrupt you. But if you can afford to play the lock piece and ramp around it, that is usually the safer play. I've lost more games trying to ramp greedily when I had a Trinisphere in hand that would have saved me the game, than I have taking my time and prioritizing the oppression. However, I would not keep a hand that had Root maze, lands, but no ramp, and Trinisphere isn't much better if its coming out T3.
Brutalizer Exarch is a card that I was actually pretty excited about when I read it, and I want it to work! If only it was a 3/4...But it might just be worth a slot or two for testing. Probably one of the few reasons I'd like to keep the bounce creatures in.
Fetches for thinning - This has been mostly disproven as a myth. However, if you draw a hand with multiple Ewits and fetches, it gives you a way to ramp up, where having only Ewits and Forests is a hand you'd likely ship back.
Overall, I really want to find a way to take the tempo advantage and find a consistent way to run with it. It feel like so many games, I start off with an advantage...and then just slowly lose it once my opponent gets out from under my efforts.
Overall, I really want to find a way to take the tempo advantage and find a consistent way to run with it. It feel like so many games, I start off with an advantage...and then just slowly lose it once my opponent gets out from under my efforts.
This. I feel like once you miss a destruction spell, you're done...
Steel Hellkite is something I looked at, but ultimately decided that his boardwipe effect comes out too slowly, he's weak to artifact hate (which is in every sideboard), and competes with Walking Ballista and Hornet Queen, which are both far better at controlling the board in ways that we very much care about.
Not to spam the thread, but I keep needing more early pressure. Especially on 3 mana turns. What about Omnath, Locus of Mana? Comes down early, gets big FAST...
..but I keep needing more early pressure. Especially on 3 mana turns. What about Omnath, Locus of Mana? Comes down early, gets big FAST...
You want early pressure? or early defense? Control decks aren't usually built with 'early pressure' in mind. Reid Duke's old(er) article on the Mothership about control decks mentions that "Control decks are concerned with tempo only as it relates to defending themselves" as well as " All you want to do is survive, develop your mana, and generate card advantage. " I think our biggest concern is ramping into our LD spells rather than dropping threats/defense. And since there's a good chance our LD spells aren't getting any better/cheaper, our deck needs get to 4 mana faster than the opponent so we can cut them off resources. Modern is very much a Turn 4 format and if we durdle around in the early game, we can very well lose to a lot of decks.
I think the mana storage aspect would be nice but I could also see a situation where you'd float mana to go into combat and get blown out by removal, losing all your mana for your 2nd Main play for the turn. You could give it a try in your flex spot.
Something similar I had thought about: Managorger Hydra. But I'm wondering if we're just better off playing creatures that have an immediate impact as soon as they're played.
What about Field of Ruin? I know it lets them search, but modern decks run VERY few basics.
I don't think it is a terrible inclusion but remember, we want to keep our Forest count high for Arbor Elf and Utopia Sprawl. Karsten's math on hitting the right colors states that we should want at least 14 untapped green sources for a Turn 1 play and 20 untapped green sources for an Arbor Elf + Utopia Sprawl (double green) play on Turn 2.
I'm also not sure when we'd want to be activating the ability. Our typical curve is pretty mana efficient and we don't usually have 2-3 excess mana until we get into the late game.
Not sure what you mean here. That planeswalkers are a problem for us? Or that we should be running planeswalkers?
I think banking on Steel Hellkite to come down to deal with a Liliana means that you're not in a good spot against an opponent. Quite a few of us are running Bramblecrush for planeswalker removal if necessary. Primal Command can also reset a planeswalker that is dangerously close to ultimate. I think my inclusion of Treetop Village helps my deck have a little more reach if something like Liliana comes down.
As for a creature, I think defense. Even if it's not necessarily on turn 2 with 3 mana, but a cheaper, good blocker seems needed. A resolved Goyf or several Goblins seems to be enough to put us on our back foot.
Could be a worthwhile direction. Could be a waste of time, but will most certainly be fun.
WW Death & Taxes
GG Control
RR Skred Red
I understand that our dorks will take the brunt of the removal spells but I think that was the reason the original list played the extra Elvish Mystics/Llanowar Elves (so that we're not only relying on T1 Arbor Elf) and Sakura-Tribe Elder (so that we have a T2 play if we don't have Utopia Sprawl).
Something that I've thought about that goes along with the resiliency aspect -- Deathmist Raptor/Den Protector combo. Deathmist Raptor is a relatively cheap CMC creature that can play both offense and defense for us. Den Protector is almost another Eternal Witness and can potentially get back Raptors for free if we're using the ability. She's got a bit of evasion too. The downside is that the 'combo' can require a bit of setup and can potentially be mana intensive but I also think both cards can play well on their own. Also, finding places to cut in the deck can be a hard task. Most of our lists seem pretty tight. I doubt we could spare some space.
As for your Raptor combo, it's a cool concept, but I think the core group here has attempted to go down those types of rabbit holes and always comeback to focusing on LD, and locking down our opponent. We want minimal, resilient, hard hitting creatures, that can finish a game for us. That being said the original concept did have a creature loop, so I could be wrong! Always awesome to keep thinking of ways to push this deck, so try out your theory, and let the group know your results.
T1 Mystic > T2 Tribe Elder > 5 Mana possible T3, but requires a hand that starts with land, and elf, and steve.
T1 > T2 Caryatid > 4 Mana T3, but undisruptable with a starting hand of 2-3 land and a caryatid.
We could go even further if we really wanted to, and drop the Utopia Sprawls/Arbor Elves/mystics all together for a full playset of Caryatid/Steve, free up more slots for threats, and have completely undisruptable ramp, albeit a bit slower, but a nearly guarenteed T3 LD every single game. This would also simplify what counts as a keeper hand by a large margin, and would open up the use of more utility lands since we're not so paranoid about optimizing for T2 explosiveness.
I'm gonna try varying degrees of this in conjunction with the hexproof threats and get back to you guys. I think I'm liking the idea of consistency over potential explosiveness.
edit: reading a bit more, it looks like we'd need more lands if we're counting on our 3rd land drop by turn 3. Looks like 23 is the absolute minimum to have a ~90% chance of hitting 3 consecutive land drops. A list that went that direction would almost certainly want to prioritize topdeck filtering or card draw, and include 4-6 fetches. So basically, one needs to decide whether they want to go all in on the explosiveness, or on the consistency. Its up to the pilot to choose which is of more value, and build around that. Trying to have the best of both worlds dilutes the end result.
Yea, no, that little bit about having mana dorks was more in response to what you were saying about how "dork removal puts us so behind" and how the original list was built with that in mind. I was speaking more in regards to using EWit to get back our more impactful creatures or whatever slots people are trying to make for creatures like Thrun, the Last Troll or Dungrove Elders. I guess I was trying to say instead of trying to blank the removal, why not just use EWit to get back whatever has been removed. Its not like we're only limited to the 4 copies in the deck since we have main-deck access to Primal Command's shuffle and grab effects. I think those creatures can be fine additions but I'd be careful not to water-down the deck for fear of removal when we're already built to be fairly resilient.
As for watered-down, I agree that Raptor combo would probably take up too many slots dedicated to our main objective. Just figured I'd keep throwing stuff out to see what sticks.
I think Sylvan Caryatid is something to try out but I don't think I'd drop all the Turn 1 ramp cards. I feel like with only Tribe Elder and Caryatid you'd risk limiting your sub-optimal draws in favor of protecting your optimal draw when you actually have it. For instance, with a 'classic' build, you can very well not have a dork on T1, find it T2, and potentially still have the 4-mana play on T3. If you miss a T2 Caryatid/Steve in a no-dork build then you never have the T3 4-mana play. Also, in the no-dork version, you'll always require 3 lands on T3 while a build with mana-elves can make it work with less. I think the lines/probabilities are pretty complex with the 'classic' build so its hard to really tell. I think at the very least I'd keep in Utopia Sprawl since it's least susceptible to common removal. I'd be interested to see how it works out for you.
I'm really enjoying exploring all these new options
Oh I'm certainly not arguing that it limits optimal draws, but the chances of not drawing 1 of 8 2mana accelerators in your starting hand is highly unlikely, and you only need 1. Plus this build would definitely run slightly more lands and coursers.
It's a bit of a toss up. Accepting inconsistency in the name of having a certain percentage of explosive games that our opponents simply never have a chance of recovering from might actually be the best line, statistically. But its always worth testing out other strategies as well.
2 Acidic Slime
4 Arbor Elf
3 Beast Within
1 Courser of Kruphix
4 Eternal Witness
2 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
2 Noble Hierarch
3 Plow Under
4 Primal Command
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Tireless Tracker
4 Utopia Sprawl
2 Walking Ballista
11 Forest
2 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
Sideboard:
1 Creeping Corrosion
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Obstinate Baloth
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Trinisphere
I've been going 3-1 the last couple of weeks at my local modern event.
The biggest differences that I can see are the inclusion of Beast Within and Walking Ballista. Both added additional removal to the deck. Since I've added them, the games seem to me to be more under my control. I have more options than when I wasn't running them.
I haven't tried the Leylines in the sideboard yet, but I put them in just recently to deal with my worst matchup - Burn
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/decks/3387-mono-green-control-update-5-3-2018
I can’t quote everyone that I want to, so I’ll just list my thoughts on things I read in general:
1. My list has been designed for consistency as much as possible. My goal has been to ensure at least one of my mana accelerants is still on the board past turn 2 for land destruction turn 3. It’s why I ran 15 sources of early ramp.
2. On the idea of other paths people have taken the deck: people seemed to have found the concern I discovered early on when building; adding threats and silver bullets can dilute the deck too far if too many are added. That’s why my current list has about 3 ‘Threat’ slots maindeck. While my updated list posted above chooses 2 Walking Ballista ans 1 Hornet Queen, I plan to change that for testing purposes. I’ll get back to that in a minute.
3. The bounce duo I run: Compared to something like the raptor loop posted somewhere above, I feel mine is very card-light, going back to the issues talked about with consistency and limited slots in a deck. They also interact with Eternal Witness and Acidic Slime very nicely, or block Tasigur/Hollow One one-for-one at the worst otherwise. The ability to completely lock out the game if your opponent’s hand is dead just off of Primal Command also helps justify them.
4. On the topic of other threats people are running in that slot: the most interesting ones I’ve seen mentioned here in my mind are Nissa, Vital Force and Deus of Calamity. If I can get hold of some at FNM tonight, I might very well test one or both of them within my flex slots.
5. On Trinisphere: I have been working to find slots to take out for it maindeck. Tonight, I plan to test taking out three of the Sakura-Tribe Elders for it, and taking out the last Sakura for a Llanowar Elves to help facilitate Turn 2 Trinispheres more often.
I’m thankful for all your help in making this deck the best it can be.
What are you considering "flex slots"? The threats?
Affinity
GR Eggs GR
UR Storm UR
BR Hollow One BR
WUR Cheerios WUR
G Mono-Green Control G
It feels like our deck has a tendency to draw the wrong half of the deck as often as we draw into our money spells. This is of course a downside of any ramp deck, but is especially pronounced when our payoff spells are Sorceries that need to be played T2/3, and consecutively in order to give us the momentum we need to win. coming back from behind is incredibly difficult if our opponent gets some creatures out from under our plays, and especially if we can't Primal for Hornet Queen or make a big enough Ballista before we die.
I'm also torn between Root Maze and Trinisphere:
On one hand, if we have ramp, Root Maze is significantly better for us in midgame, as we can keep ramping while playing payoff spells in one turn.
On the other, Trinisphere is an actual lock piece when combined with LD.
The downsides of both are:
Rootmaze still allows the opponent to play their spells in the early game, and handrips/creature removal completely screws us.
Trinisphere keeps us from ramping as soon as it comes down.
I will say that Trinisphere has a more consistent effect on the game, where as rootmaze was only really good for the first few turns if the opponent had mostly fetches/shocks, or if I drew into Plow Under. Root Maze was also not an optimal draw if I had all lands and insufficient ramp for an LD effect.
Overall, when this deck does what its intended to do, the opponent just doesn't get to play Magic. At all. But I find that to be around 20% of games or so. Maybe I'm not mulliganing enough, maybe I'm missing lines of play, maybe my meta is just especially punishing, but I feel like the deck still...needs...something, to give it that little bit of consistency and synergy it needs to truly get there.
Card draw and topdeck filtering are something I especially notice a lack of. Others have used Courser of Kruphix in the past, and while not especially optimal, he certainly is something where we currently have nothing. Tracker can be good, but often we're just not getting enough land drops for him to be relevant, with only 20 lands in the deck. Nissa, Sage Animist would be great but she just comes out too slow, Harmonize is too expensive and may as well just be an LD spell itself, Oath Of Nissa bottoms all the spells we actually want...Lifecrafter's Bestiary is super nice but I'm not sure its worth a slot.
Walking Ballista's on 1 and 2 have been the strongest addition in my experience, sometimes its a bummer to use them so early, but its usually a positive pay off, and a primary target for Ewits. I think making room for 3 is definitely a must.
I tried out Deus of Calamity again tonight. He's fun when he does his job, but often times, I just wish he was a Primeval Titan. Getting to 8 mana is kind of a second sweet spot for us...we can set a Ballista to 4, play two LD effects, play Ewit and Primal, reload a ballista twice...As soon as Primal comes down, we gain a massive boost in inevitability. I just don't think Deus of Calamity does that to near the same effect.
One thing I've noticed is that I just about never go for the Stampeding lock. Can someone help me with some optimal lines to make that effective?
One cool play I got to make tonight was in a grindy matchup against 8rack.
My opponent dropped an ensnaring bridge on my 4/4 ballista, so I shot him 3 times, swung with him as a 1/1, activated pendelhaven before damage, then reloaded it twice and shot my opponent for lethal. Probably the most satisfying win with this deck so far, purely because the match lasted about 20 minutes, and I was dead to Rack next turn.
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Arbor Elf
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Carnage Tyrant
1 Cloudthresher
1 Steel Hellkite
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Bramblecrush
4 Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
4 Primal Command
3 Plow Under
2 Lifecrafter's Bestiary
19 Forest
3 Autumn's Veil
1 Cloudthresher
2 Creeping Corrosion
1 Naturalize
2 Prowling Serpopard
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Back to Nature
On Devotion: I know most of you guys are on the Nykthos plan with untapping effects but outside of the explosive Utopia Sprawl + Arbor Elf draws, you can just ramp into 5 mana on turn 3 and usually out-tempo your opponent from there. I can see where the interest in Devotion is coming from but I think it dilutes what the deck is trying to do; namely prevent our opponents from playing relevant Magic cards. So focusing more on disrupting their manabase seems to work best for me.
On Bombs: I think Carnage Tyrant is pretty much unbeatable for most decks and he is a very real threat on turn 3/4. To be fair, I haven't played with Prime Time but I can't see myself really wanting to ramp that much more once I've hit 6+ mana in play. Cloudthresher has been amazing at allowing me to play on Control's terms. Flash from a Mono-G deck is unusual and if you are passing with 6 mana up, opponents usually think you bricked for a turn. The 2 damage to flyers and players is usually relevant and it also is just a giant 7/7 dude. Also, if you guys haven't played with Steel Hellkite, you need to get on that train. It's a one-sided Engineered Explosives on a 5/5 flying mana sink. It does everything the deck wants to be doing.
On Bestiary: mistahARK just mentioned that he thinks the deck is lacking card draw/filtering and as he mentioned Lifecrafter's Bestiary does just that. It can come down turn 2 and is at worst a free Scry 1 every Upkeep. Late game it turns all of your dorks into redraws and 6 mana for an Acidic Slime that draws a card (effectively becoming a 2-for-0) is amazing. It competes with lock pieces but I think the added consistency is well worth it. I'd highly recommend giving it a try.
On No EWit: I mentioned above how I never really found myself wanting to go for the Eternal Command loop. I definitely respect the power of the interaction but what gets me about it, is that you are spending 8 mana to blank a draw and a land drop from the opponent. Which on paper sounds like a repeatable Time Walk but it doesn't allow you to interact with what is already in play or in the opponent's hand. So putting a 2/1 into play and blanking a draw just ended up feeling underwhelming when the opponent can still just play other things from their hand. Also, being able to let Primal Command be "gain 7 life + top a permanent/tutor for a fatty" is important for the myriad of aggressive decks out there right now. I just found the value in the loop to be more cute than effective, so I dropped the EWits to make room for more consistent ramp and land destruction.
The sideboard should definitely have a Thragtusk, I'll have to figure out where to slot that in. Beast Within or Dismember should probably also be in the deck somewhere as well. I have found Infect to be almost unbeatable and having a way to keep them off of Blighted Agent is probably worth looking into.
I'm going to be playing it tomorrow night at my LGS's weekly Modern event and I'll let you guys know how it goes. Also, feel free to critique my list. I think it's pretty good but having other sets of eyes is almost always a good thing.
Any reason you guys aren't running Treetop Village? I've got 3 in the list I'm using and I've seen little downside. Yes, there have been one or two instances where I had wished to draw an untapped green source instead, but most of the time it has not impacted playing spells on curve. If anything, it's been helpful when we sometimes have those "do nothing" turns -- when we're playing just a bit off-curve and it can chip in a little bit of damage in the meantime. Or in the later game when we need to start closing out the game with attackers and have extra mana to spend.
Here's my current list:
3 Treetop Village
4 Arbor Elf
1 Elvish Mystic
1 Llanowar Elves
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Eternal Witness
1 Stampeding Wildebeests
3 Acidic Slime
2 Cloudthresher
4 Utopia Sprawl
1 Bramblecrush
4 Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
1 Reclaiming Vines
3 Plow Under
4 Primal Command
Like Capt. Nick, I've still been a fan of Cloudthresher. We really have no way to touch smaller fliers (like Spirit Tokens) or a way to play outside of Sorcery speed to catch our opponent by surprise and 'Thresher does help a bit. I really do like having Hornet Queen in the main and I could see eventually shaving a copy of 'Thresher for The Queen. I sometimes struggle to regularly hit 7 mana though, especially against faster decks.
I've been trying out Root Maze in the main and I like it overall but I'm also a little on the fence about it. It's pretty great against most decks by punishing fetches and keeps people mana starved when we start bouncing/destroying lands and they can never make up lost ground. The downside for us is pretty minimal since we have dorks/Sprawls to sort of balance out the slowed mana production. We usually tend to build up extra lands with cards like Acid-Moss and STE too. The thing I don't really like about it is finding the right time in the game to play it. The optimal time is obviously Turn 1 when we're on the play. But at times when we're not on the play I contemplate whether or not to play a Turn 1 dork/Sprawl instead. If I play dork first, sometimes Maze gets stuck in my hand as I continue to curve out and by then it doesn't really make an impact. If I play Maze first, I risk stumbling on my own mana while the opponent slowly creeps ahead. The other obvious downside is that it isn't good in multiples. Or when in topdeck mode. It also doesn't do much to stop decks that don't rely on fetches or are mono-colored.
On no Ewit -- I don't know how I feel about that, though I will admit that sometimes 4 seems like it could be too many. I could see potentially trimming to 3 (definitely no less) in order to avoid having too many in the opening turns. Yes, putting a 2/1 into play and blanking an opponent's next draw seems underwhelming when they can just play cards from their hand but the fact of the matter is that they're not drawing more spells. And we're putting more threats/bodies into play in the meantime. Eventually their hand will get empty and they'll have to just sit and watch us play Magic while they can't. I also feel like EWit does more for us than just looping Primals too. She gets back anything from our graveyard that's been discarded or destroyed and that means opponents potentially have to burn through twice their discard or removal. EWit is about as close to Snapcaster Mage as we're going to get in green. Even if EWit is only good for Primal looping, playing multiple Primals is our own way to get card advantage/draw gas and sometimes keep our lifetotal high against more aggressive decks. If I were to cut a looping aspect of the deck, it would probably be the Stampeding Serow/Stampeding Wildebeests/Roaring Primadox before I touch Eternal Witness.
I also wanted to spitball some potential card ideas. Some may be bad, but at least we can say we've thought about it. No need to address them all but it'd be interesting to hear thoughts on anything worth testing:
Thanks for reading! Keep up the hard work brewing!
Affinity
GR Eggs GR
UR Storm UR
BR Hollow One BR
WUR Cheerios WUR
G Mono-Green Control G
I think cutting Ewit is a mistake. She is currently the only card advantage we have, and even if you're not going for the Primal Loop, she puts things back in your hand.
Steel Hellkite is something I looked at, but ultimately decided that his boardwipe effect comes out too slowly, he's weak to artifact hate (which is in every sideboard), and competes with Walking Ballista and Hornet Queen, which are both far better at controlling the board in ways that we very much care about.
I still think Cloudthresher was one of the greatest strengths of the original build, and wish I could make room for more in my current build, but again...Queen and Ballistas.
I agree that the bounce creatures feel like something I'd like to cut. I'd like to watch Neilson set up his lock a few times to see if there's just something I'm missing, but I'd rather have more Ballistas or more LD at this point. I feel that the natural casting of a few Primal Commands, even looped with Eternal 2-3 times is plenty of tempo advantage for us, and that we need big things to do with that tempo advantage. Additionally, only in the most optimal of circumstances does a primal command loop actually lock the game in my favor, usually they have creatures out, or spells in hand that they can still play, which forces me to tutor for an answer, rather than another Ewit. The loop just feels too expensive and clunky, and I'd rather have something else to do.
I'm not especially sure how I feel about the idea of cutting Tribe-elders for Mystics. On one hand, Mystics set us up for T2 Trini. On the other, Mystics are easily and usually bolted, and Tribe Elder is guarenteed ramp/blocks for a turn. However, Tribe Elder does not work well with either the T1 Root Maze plan, nor the T2 Trinisphere play, so...
On ramping vs playing lock pieces...that requires some knowledge of your opponents deck and how he plans to disrupt you. But if you can afford to play the lock piece and ramp around it, that is usually the safer play. I've lost more games trying to ramp greedily when I had a Trinisphere in hand that would have saved me the game, than I have taking my time and prioritizing the oppression. However, I would not keep a hand that had Root maze, lands, but no ramp, and Trinisphere isn't much better if its coming out T3.
Brutalizer Exarch is a card that I was actually pretty excited about when I read it, and I want it to work! If only it was a 3/4...But it might just be worth a slot or two for testing. Probably one of the few reasons I'd like to keep the bounce creatures in.
Fetches for thinning - This has been mostly disproven as a myth. However, if you draw a hand with multiple Ewits and fetches, it gives you a way to ramp up, where having only Ewits and Forests is a hand you'd likely ship back.
Overall, I really want to find a way to take the tempo advantage and find a consistent way to run with it. It feel like so many games, I start off with an advantage...and then just slowly lose it once my opponent gets out from under my efforts.
This. I feel like once you miss a destruction spell, you're done...
Affinity
GR Eggs GR
UR Storm UR
BR Hollow One BR
WUR Cheerios WUR
G Mono-Green Control G
Affinity
GR Eggs GR
UR Storm UR
BR Hollow One BR
WUR Cheerios WUR
G Mono-Green Control G
Planeswalkers... Lili HURTS and is cheap.
Affinity
GR Eggs GR
UR Storm UR
BR Hollow One BR
WUR Cheerios WUR
G Mono-Green Control G
Affinity
GR Eggs GR
UR Storm UR
BR Hollow One BR
WUR Cheerios WUR
G Mono-Green Control G
You want early pressure? or early defense? Control decks aren't usually built with 'early pressure' in mind. Reid Duke's old(er) article on the Mothership about control decks mentions that "Control decks are concerned with tempo only as it relates to defending themselves" as well as " All you want to do is survive, develop your mana, and generate card advantage. " I think our biggest concern is ramping into our LD spells rather than dropping threats/defense. And since there's a good chance our LD spells aren't getting any better/cheaper, our deck needs get to 4 mana faster than the opponent so we can cut them off resources. Modern is very much a Turn 4 format and if we durdle around in the early game, we can very well lose to a lot of decks.
I think the mana storage aspect would be nice but I could also see a situation where you'd float mana to go into combat and get blown out by removal, losing all your mana for your 2nd Main play for the turn. You could give it a try in your flex spot.
Something similar I had thought about: Managorger Hydra. But I'm wondering if we're just better off playing creatures that have an immediate impact as soon as they're played.
I don't think it is a terrible inclusion but remember, we want to keep our Forest count high for Arbor Elf and Utopia Sprawl. Karsten's math on hitting the right colors states that we should want at least 14 untapped green sources for a Turn 1 play and 20 untapped green sources for an Arbor Elf + Utopia Sprawl (double green) play on Turn 2.
I'm also not sure when we'd want to be activating the ability. Our typical curve is pretty mana efficient and we don't usually have 2-3 excess mana until we get into the late game.
Not sure what you mean here. That planeswalkers are a problem for us? Or that we should be running planeswalkers?
I think banking on Steel Hellkite to come down to deal with a Liliana means that you're not in a good spot against an opponent. Quite a few of us are running Bramblecrush for planeswalker removal if necessary. Primal Command can also reset a planeswalker that is dangerously close to ultimate. I think my inclusion of Treetop Village helps my deck have a little more reach if something like Liliana comes down.
Affinity
GR Eggs GR
UR Storm UR
BR Hollow One BR
WUR Cheerios WUR
G Mono-Green Control G