Yea, to me personally it feels like we should try and prioritize Ramp (getting to Turn 4 and more-so Turn 5) so we can switch gears into ensuring mana denial with Plow Under and Primal Command.
Unfortunately, I think if Aggro holds a large percentage in the sphere that you play in, shelving the deck may be the only option. Control generally folds to Aggro most, if not all, of the time
What sort of Aggro decks are you seeing? What decklist are you using?
The problem with full mono-green is that we have very few ways in green to take control of an out of control board state.
Green doesn't have the control tools to play from behind very well. We have Ramp, Big Creatures, and LD. We don't have boardwipes to help us stall and it is hard for us to create a small army or deal with big creatures outside of death touch which is where Hornet Queen comes in. Hornet Queen though can't really stop for example all that well Elves, a good aggro Human deck, Druid/Vizier, Infect decks although we are better at affinity. Green can only handle creatures with other creatures, but there is little to turn itself around on a deck like Elves or Humans once we are behind and Humans are very good at disrupting our game plan.
It is also the problem that other green based Tribal decks or other green decks have against aggro or combo decks. The tools aren't exactly there. You can substitute some of htem like Garruk Relentless for targetted removal or beast within. Green isn't a great board state control deck.
Don't forget that a strength of this deck is the ability to recover from being behind though lifegain behind threatening blockers and topdeck/trinisphere locks.
Also, Ratchet bomb is a decent tool against aggro, as most aggro creatures are 1-2 drop. Just crank it to 1 the turn it drops and threaten with it. But yes, Humans are a pain in the ass, and have earned their place as a T1 deck.
The problem with full mono-green is that we have very few ways in green to take control of an out of control board state.
Green doesn't have the control tools to play from behind very well.
Obviously we don't have the tools to wipe the board so I wonder if our gameplan when that happens is to just try and 'stem the bleeding' with chump blocking then keep counter-attacking with a big fatty. Something like using Beacon of Creation or Fungal Sprouting to create a line of defense and swinging hard with something huge and evasive like Ghalta, Primal Hunger or Terra Stomper (Obviously there are plenty of card options here. Green is full of fatties)
As far as solid early blockers goes, Predator Ooze is something I would like to test running 4x of. The strategy would be swing until they grow to 'trade' with the opponents biggest creature, then leave it as a blocker and stabilize. They continue to grow over turns and gives the opponent a real reason not to swing, especially if we have ballista out (ooze damages creature, ballista finishes it, ooze gets a counter). Great devotion for Nyx too.
Dungrove elder would be a slightly different strategy, probably a weaker one, but resilient to targeted -1 effects and getting Pathed I guess. Although they're definitely a better topdeck than Ooze, so...testing required.
Nissa, Voice of Zendikar's +1 ability could also generate a lot of blockers and then buff them with her -1.
All 3 of these give us a T2/3 alternative to Courser for those of us who aren't a fan of playing with the top card revealed. And Nissa still gives us life/card advantage.
Hello everyone!
I’ve been following this deck since the original reddit post and last week I finally took it to a 4-1 finish at modern night at my LGS. Unfortunately, I didn’t take any notes so my recollection of these games is spotty at best. I’ve been using this list:
Once again, since I didn’t take any notes during the matches, I can only remember some things that stuck with me. My apologies.
2-1 vs. Taking Turns:
I lost game one and in game two my T2 Defense Grid got Commandeered. It was only two or three turns later that we realized that Defense Grid is a symmetrical effect and my opponent conceded. Game three he couldn’t’ t draw enough lands to keep up with my destruction. 0-2 vs. Jund:
These were some quick games. Several Tarmogoyf. Nothing I can do about that. 2-0 (or maybe 2-1) vs. Jund:
After the previous round against Jund I expected two quick losses but this time I somehow managed to keep my opponent on two lands and my Acidic Slimes kept the Tarmogoyfs, which luckily came quite late in the game, at bay. Deathtouch ftw! 2-0 vs. BW Smallpox:
Game two I somehow managed to win against three Liliana of the Veil. Primal Command also helped immensely against Bloodghast. But I guess I also got a little bit lucky because I didn't see a single Smallpox. 2-0 vs. UW Control:
Played against a friend of mine. After I got the upper hand in game one he said he for sure is going to play this out but he conceded after he had no permanents left :). In game two a lot of my stuff got Mana Leaked or Path to Exile'd but I mostly managed to keep him off Cryptic Command mana. I think there was only one turn where he cast it, and after he tapped out I played my Hornet Queen. He didn’t find a board wipe in time.
Some thoughts:
I need to remember to side out Courser of Kruphix against Jund. That extra card type makes the Goyfs even more dangerous. I replaced the Mistcutters in my sideboard with Ratchet Bombs because I desperately need something to deal with low mana cost creatures. The Mistcutters don’t do that much anyway; even against control decks.
I liked Defense Grid and looking at the price trend for Trinispheres it probably will be in my sideboard for a little while longer. Maybe I’ll find a spot for Guttural Response.
I don’t think that the revealed card from the Courser impacted me negatively. The lifegain didn’t matter in these matches but more than once I managed to shuffle away a bad draw.
In those matches where Tireless Tracker stayed on the battlefield he was the MVP! That late game card draw is awesome. I'll probably find a spot for another one.
All in all, it was very fun to play and I must admit I do enjoy watching my opponent slowly fall into despair. I also believe I got lucky by not playing against an aggro deck, and I probably should not have won the match against Jund, but hey, I’ll take it
I've also been toying with the idea of making room for some Fog effects, as the Timbermare idea didn't really pan out the way I thought it would. Haze Frog seems like a decent 1 of. He himself can trade with a smallish creature the turn he comes in, but obviously the main effect is a tutorable fog effect that buys us another turn, or lets us swing in for the finish on our turn. Just another controlly green card to add to our arsenal.
Just got done going 2-1-1 tonight. Managed to piss off a Through the Breach pilot and a UBW control pilot, they never stood a chance I was running a stock list with Hornet Queen and Thragtusk in place of the Cloudthreshers, as well as -1 Mystic and -1 Ewit for 2x Trinisphere. The Trinisphere's really do work mainboard, effectively working as a Chalice on 1 and 2 if we can keep them off their lands. I found 3 was too many to mainboard for the majority of matchups, but I pull in the third against decks that are lower to the ground.
Overall, I'm finding that this deck works best when its focused on one objective, ramping into oppression. Killing the opponent is secondary and happens through chip damage for me most of the time. I've decided that for this archetype, I'll be avoiding too many extraneous cards, even forgoing Courser and Garruk for a standard amount of T1 ramp and Trinispheres. I went to 3 Ewits because I couldn't see myself cutting anything else, and I remembered there were several hands that had 2+ Ewits in it which I couldn't help but think was a bit of a waste of a T2 play. Taking out the Ewit and Mystic for the 2 mainboard Trinis had the least impact on the overall curve, and the deck ran like a dream tonight. I never even got to/had to demonstrate the Stampeders, Hornet Queen or Thragtusk, and that fact alone almost makes me want to try going up in LD effects/Slime/graveyard recursion over the bullet slots...BW control does it without big creatures, why can't we? Especially if we're able to further focus the oppression aspect of our deck.
I did land a Carnage Tyrant twice tonight, and Boseiju did some serious work as well, so those are here to stay. But I have to say that over all, I'm moving more towards focusing the consistency of the control aspect of the deck, than I am looking to diversify.
Here's my current running list. Let me know what you think.
I do think that having Hornet Queen main may provide you a nice tutorable threat to turn the corner mainboard and thragusk main can help the burn matchup. I do think Trinishperes are a must main deck though. They are our blood moon for the most part. I do like fetch lands though to enable Thinning and Eternal Witness targets early.
This post 100%. I had mentioned earlier I think the only time we truly are in the driver seat is when we are landing LD early and often. I like this deck list a lot (I especially like that Nissa, Vital Force has found a home for you too), but I would remove Tribe Elders, LLanowar Elves, and even the Wildebeasts. With your list that would give us 7 cards to add to main, in which case I would sub in the following.
2x Voyaging Satyr
2x Coursers
2x Mana (optional, but I like at least 22 when I am playing less dorks)
1x LD of your choice
All of the substitute cards mentioned fall in line with your train of thought I think.
*Voyaging Satyr - 2 man Arbor elf yes, but 2 defense, and improves our chance of untapping lands which is huge for us to get our PC lock in place. Having 2 creatures out there that can untap has helped me win games at least. I love Explore here in the 2 mana spot, but I would rather have a chump block, and untap, vs. draw a card I think.
*Courser - has not tested amazing for me, but its starting to with a list like this. He is solid against removal (no fatal push, no bolt), aggro (4 defense), life gain, and thins our deck with lands.
I have even messed around adding one Craterhoof Behemoth, and I have to say it has done work.. I guess anything around that casting cost for us as green will be devastating if cast (Hornet Queen for example).
Just my 2 cents anyway.. Glad to hear you had a better go your last tournament.
I do think that having Hornet Queen main may provide you a nice tutorable threat to turn the corner mainboard and thragusk main can help the burn matchup. I do think Trinishperes are a must main deck though. They are our blood moon for the most part. I do like fetch lands though to enable Thinning and Eternal Witness targets early.
I've found that I usually don't end up using my main threats to win, and that they're normally not the best thing to have in my starting hand unless I'm against the specific matchup they're there to help with. So, I opted to improve the consistency of the baseline instead, moving the big threats to the side and going up in deathtouch blockers, LD, and a single Nissa for free manlands every turn, as well as graveyard recursion and even card advantage if I want it. I have some fetchlands in the mail and will definitely be running 4 of those at least. 4-5 seems like a solid number actually.
This post 100%. I had mentioned earlier I think the only time we truly are in the driver seat is when we are landing LD early and often. I like this deck list a lot (I especially like that Nissa, Vital Force has found a home for you too), but I would remove Tribe Elders, LLanowar Elves, and even the Wildebeasts. With your list that would give us 7 cards to add to main, in which case I would sub in the following.
2x Voyaging Satyr
2x Coursers
2x Mana (optional, but I like at least 22 when I am playing less dorks)
1x LD of your choice
All of the substitute cards mentioned fall in line with your train of thought I think.
*Voyaging Satyr - 2 man Arbor elf yes, but 2 defense, and improves our chance of untapping lands which is huge for us to get our PC lock in place. Having 2 creatures out there that can untap has helped me win games at least. I love Explore here in the 2 mana spot, but I would rather have a chump block, and untap, vs. draw a card I think.
*Courser - has not tested amazing for me, but its starting to with a list like this. He is solid against removal (no fatal push, no bolt), aggro (4 defense), life gain, and thins our deck with lands.
I have even messed around adding one Craterhoof Behemoth, and I have to say it has done work.. I guess anything around that casting cost for us as green will be devastating if cast (Hornet Queen for example).
Just my 2 cents anyway.. Glad to hear you had a better go your last tournament.
I can see going down a Tribe Elder for a Satyr, and I don't mind running 1x Courser from time to time. But the Tribe Elders are huge for early game ramp, and that's when I want it the most. For the same reason, I kept the Mystics in as well. Our momentum is built on the backs of our opponent, and if they're ahead in lands, they're most likely winning. Getting in T2/3 LD/Trinisphere is so incredibly important to our success, I can't justify having any less than 10 T1 ramps, and no less than 3 Tribe Elders as well. They're key to our consistency.
I'd also recommend running 20 lands if you're running coursers, and trying 2x tireless Trackers. There is incredible topdeck selection/card advantage synergy within Tracker/Courser/Tribe Elder/Fetches. I'm just not a fan of how many slots it takes up in the deck myself.
But yes, I'm a believer in this Nissa as a single. The 5/5 animated lands puts the opponent on a clock or they just protect her, she can pull back Slime/Ewit/Trini, and she can even ult the turn after we play her for card advantage. She's a very, very nice to have, and might even earn one more slot from Slime or Plow Under. The main reason I like her more than Garruk is that she immediately has an effect on the battlefield. Sure Garruk untaps more lands, but I never found much of a use for the mana he made, which was only 2-3 most of the time. And yeah he minuses for a 3/3, but the summoning sickness left a lot to be desired. His Overrun ability will definitely be missed, but I think that this Nissa just better compliments the control aspects of our deck.
I do have a Craterhoof in my shopping cart, its for the Green Devo deck I'm building, but I do love the card.
*Courser - has not tested amazing for me, but its starting to with a list like this. He is solid against removal (no fatal push, no bolt), aggro (4 defense), life gain, and thins our deck with lands.
I don't want to sound like 'that guy' but cracking a Fetch into Fatal Push will still kill a Courser btw. Otherwise, yes, I do think he's rather good in those capacities but like ARK, I'm not really a fan of him in the deck (according to my playstyle, that is). If it works for you, more power to ya. Definitely works well with Fetches and Trackers
I've found that I usually don't end up using my main threats to win, and that they're normally not the best thing to have in my starting hand unless I'm against the specific matchup they're there to help with. So, I opted to improve the consistency of the baseline instead
I've noticed this too but I don't think it was clear to me until you wrote it out. Even when I've got someone in an EWit/P-Command loop, I find myself just wanting to search up another EWit (or if they're all gone, then a bounce creature) rather than a big finisher. I am still a little tempted to find some sort of one-of "slam-dunk"/"windmill-slam" creature that we can play that'll basically signal to our opponent "Yea, it's probably best to just scoop now". Like casting Emrakul usually does but without being as mana-intensive. I don't really expect us to ramp into THAT much mana. 'Hoof seems like a good example. I think Prime-Time usually gives off that vibe. Eh, maybe that's just me...
I think "improving the consistency of the baseline" is the way to go. Most decks in Modern aim to win on -- or at least heavily sway the game in their direction by -- Turn 4 and we need to do our best at interrupting that by optimizing our LD/oppression package. So maybe my desire for a big "I win" creature will have to wait.
Tribe Elders are huge for early game ramp, and that's when I want it the most. For the same reason, I kept the Mystics in as well. Our momentum is built on the backs of our opponent, and if they're ahead in lands, they're most likely winning. Getting in T2/3 LD/Trinisphere is so incredibly important to our success, I can't justify having any less than 10 T1 ramps, and no less than 3 Tribe Elders as well. They're key to our consistency.
Agree. "Bolt the Bird" is a valid way to slow or stop decks like ours and I think skimping on mana dorks could get us into hot water. I do really appreciate the fact that Tribe Elder can get us ahead on mana without having to stay on the board. He's a really great chump-blocker too. Definitely goes above and beyond
The main reason I like her more than Garruk is that she immediately has an effect on the battlefield. Sure Garruk untaps more lands, but I never found much of a use for the mana he made, which was only 2-3 most of the time.
I think this was my main gripe with Garruk; He wasn't making an immediate impact. I think immediately down-ticking is ok but less-than-ideal and immediately upticking to produce 2 or 3 mana doesn't help us much since we don't really have any impactful 2 or 3 mana plays (except if you're playing Courser and/or Tracker, which I'm not). I think I'm going to give Nissa a try and see how it goes.
In the vein of an "I win" creature, Primetime, Deus of Calamity, and Carnage Tyrant have all caused the most scoops for me, and I generally don't even need to attack. They all have their upsides, but the key stats are 6/6+ Trample for <6. 6mana seems to be a really good number for a game ender for us, any more than that and I've found that I just can't cast it fast enough.
Deus is my personal favorite: he comes down a turn earlier, no one has ever seen him before (like the rest of our deck) and the opponent knows that the land drought can only spiral from here. He provides inevitability through further sadism.
Primetime is probably the most responsible choice, as in the event our opponent doesn't scoop, he ramps us from 6 to 8 which immediately enables the soft lock (primal+ewit=8 mana) and thins our deck, improving the ever-important topdecks that we tend to struggle with.
Carnage Tyrant is nearly impossible to interact with, only missing Regenerate or Indestructible to make him truly better overall than the Thrun himself. However, he represents a 3 turn clock, and is every blue players absolute worst nightmare. Especially one underneath cryptic and verdict mana through LD I gleefully side him in first against every control matchup, but he's also just a really, really good card in general.
And we can't underestimate the original - Cloudthresher. Flashing in a 7/7 to take out their biggest attacking creature, and swinging back on our turn, is nothing to overlook.
Overall though, the amount of times I've actually needed my finisher, vs the amount of times I had the game in the bag from T3 and could have won through chipping while keeping the opponent locked, has really solidified my decision to attempt to strengthen the baseline in lieu of mainboarding big creatures. I'm sure there will be times where I wish I had Thrag/Queen/Cloudthresher mainboard, but those will be dwarved by the amount of times I had a Queen in an otherwise perfect starting hand and wished it was just another slime/LD. I will miss the queen against Humans/Merfolk, but the chances of winning against Humans especially are very low to me from a significant amount of experience.
I'm interested to see how Nissa works out, just about all of her iterations seem very useful in our deck actually, this one is just the one that I liked the most.
Nissa has been a powerhouse for me, and I have never taken her out of my lineup. Just a good compliment to what we are already trying to accomplish. I am 100% in on trying to disrupt early and often, and have been saying that throughout my posts.
I will take your advice on the Coursers, but I think you really need to try and add in Voyaging Satyrs (I really need to learn how to link cards). I tried them last night, and its so powerful to have early, untapping elements in this deck. I will keep in at least x2 of these, and prob bring Tribe Elders back into the deck with more LD.
I have been following the price of Carnage Tyrants for the last month because I really want to have just 1 or 2 finishers in this deck (actually, just 1 or 2 non mana producing creatures even). It just keeps going up in price... Not sure if I should just pull the trigger.
I have been following the price of Carnage Tyrants for the last month because I really want to have just 1 or 2 finishers in this deck (actually, just 1 or 2 non mana producing creatures even). It just keeps going up in price... Not sure if I should just pull the trigger.
Aye, I have all those cards in my inventory. I appreciate the help though! I am just mad because I almost pulled the trigger on a Tyrant but did not when he was around $10. He is easily the best card out of those.. I will keep using Hornet Queen in paper until I get him I think. If I keep hearing good things about him though it may be sooner than later!
Landed 2 Trinispheres for a decent price finally.. I am excited about that.
I really like Gaea's Revenge as well, its my second favorite anti-control finisher. Haste is a good trade-off for trample, and realistically, its equally as hard to interact with as Tyrant is. The extra cost and vulnerability to 5 power creatures (which aren't all that uncommon) is what cemented Tyrant in the slot for me though.
Glad to see others jumping on the Trini-train, it makes all the difference in the world. 3 in our 75 is key, amigos. Going up to 3 mainboard is still on the radar for me as well. Just balancing out the other changes first.
I am playing Standard for the most part at FNM's. I have a R/G dinosaur list that I play. Mono-Green Control is a fun modern deck that I play in between or before rounds.
My question is, how is this better than Ponza land destruction? I definitely am intrigued by it, but it’s almost the equivalent to running mono red burn instead Boros. Am I missing something? Is mono green somehow better than R/G when R has access to faster and better spells?
Maybe the other guys here can correct me if I'm wrong but I wouldn't say this deck is "better" than Ponza. I would say that it does a similar thing but plays differently. It may have been in this thread (or somewhere else) where someone described Ponza as being a Tempo/Aggro deck that uses Stone Rains and Blood Moons to cut the opponent off mana for a few turns while they land Bloodbraid Elf (also good at finding more tempo cards) and Stormbreath Dragon/Inferno Titan to finish out the game. I think our deck is centered more around using land destruction to lock an opponent out of playing Magic altogether -- destroying all their lands then keeping them from drawing action by placing the lands they still have back on top of their deck with Plow Under and Primal Command lock. Ponza does have tournament results to back up it's competitiveness. But Mono Green Control did get 3rd in an 86-man IQ. That may not be very impressive or could even be just a fluke but I would hope that at the very least it means that the deck can compete against some of the Tiered decks out there.
Yes, I think that going from mono-colored to multi-colored definitely adds more to any deck simply because adding an additional color essentially gains you access to 25% of all the Modern-playable cards that you couldn't play before. Unfortunately with Fetchlands/Shocklands being in Modern, there are very few advantages that mono-colored decks have over multi-colored decks. These being:
Painless mana -- you're not taking damage from Fetches or Shocks so your life total will remain high
Consistency -- you're not having to worry if you'll have the right mana combination to cast your cards
The last point -- Budget -- is most important to a player like me and it seems like was a big component in the creation of the deck. If you look at the original list, you can buy all the cards in the main deck for about $85. Neilson's big finisher for the deck (Cloudthresher) is a 25 cent "junk rare". GR Ponza decks are going for about $750
TL;DR: No, I don't think this is better than Ponza. This deck is similar but a bit different. Yes, I think that adding Red could gain you access to more cards and make the deck more resilient if you choose to go down the multi-colored path. As for the players who want to stick with Mono Green for the (unfortunately small) list of advantages mono-colored decks provide, I think we should aim to try and leverage those advantages -- like looking at cards that require more G in their mana cost or cards that punish multi-color/fetch/non-basic lands.
We're resilient to Blood Moon as well, which is a big plus. I wouldn't say we're better than Ponza, and honestly, I don't think that this deck can be improved much by spending any more money on it - Neilson said that his list was the non-budget list, and any minor improvements that were made after that added maybe 20-50$ to the overall.
I think our deck's focus is consistency, and winning through inevitability. Ponza wants to disrupt and then move in for the kill, which may actually be a more effective strategy. But this deck is a ton of fun to play in its own right, and we're just a reprint of Ice Storm or Winter's Grasp away from going toe-to-toe with even Ponza. That may be a bit optimistic, but we're really not that far behind. Our T2 LD is a bit harder to pull off than theirs, but it happens regularly enough.
I've played the deck a bit more since my last post, and I think I've settled somewhere between going "All in" on LD/Control and having big creatures...We need some creatures in the deck to compete, and Acidic Slime/Eternal Witness isn't enough.
Using our life as a resource is one thing we already have a good capability for with P.Command, and that could be compounded by mainboarding more creatures with lifegain. These creatures also just so happen to among the most resistant creatures to removal in Modern: Kitchen Finks, Obstinate Baloth, and Thragtusk.
Thragtusk was already in the board for most builds, and he was hugely useful in stabilizing from early turns. He was also resistant to removal, and had an immediate ETB effect. I really missed him more than I thought I would when I tried to focus the deck towards LD, and realized that the lifegain was more relevant than I had thought too.
Another realization I had was that Stampeding Wildebeests is just too clunky. It dies to Fatal Push, but more often my opponent would just bolt the Slime or Ewit that I had out, forcing me to take a useless card back to hand. I really do think that, if one does want to go the route of bounce effects, either Temur Sabertooth or Cloudstone Curio are the best bets, as they keep the control over the effect in our hands. And with the limited slots we have, Sabertoth is probably the better choice (blocks/tutorable).
However, I think I may be moving away from the bounce effect entirely in favor of more mainboarded creatures. The 1G it costs to bounce with Sabertooth is relevant, and the games where I have used the bounce effect to any success have been few and far between. I think it may be better to move into a curved creature suite and away from the bounce. Doing this without affecting the LD effect or ramp consistency is what will take some testing. I also think that courser may actually have a place as at least a 1x in my new direction...Which probably means Tireless Tracker and a playset of fetches does too.
I'm thinking of testing something like this, thoughts?
Notably, the single Nissa, Voice of Zendikar adds significant value to the Kitchen Kinks by resetting their Persist counter with her neg, while generating additional blockers every turn. I've also taken out the Pendelhaven, opting for more consistent ramp.
I've been playing my fav archetype lately (D&T) after running this for a month. I haven't dismantled MGC, and don't plan on it, but I'll probably rotate it in every few weeks to put my opponents on tilt.
I looked long and hard at Finks before moving forward with the Coursers myself. I went with Coursers because of their resilience against Bolt and because they were a good T2 against aggro and burn in an otherwise slower hand. Sometime opponents would focus attention on it, burning 2 burn spells to drop it before I could gain anything from it - which is just fine with me since it bought me time to stabilize and avoid 2 spells intended for my life total.
Other than the Wal-mart scry effect, the lifegain was always quite pronounced, especially with Acid-Moss, Prime Time, and Elder. I gained far more than 4 life a game that Finks could provide after 1 persist trigger. It's not that I think Finks is bad, far from it, but Courser provides what Finks does and then some. Since you're already hanging with 1 main, maybe a 2/2 3/1 split with Tracker instead?
As far as the bounce lock, I'm with you. When it works it works very well, but it's usually better to just run more business spells or win conditions outside Neilson's stock list.
I have always liked the dedication to LD instead of adding more tactics such as bounce or too much ramp. That being said, I think going heavy creature in the deck can only help, and have been saying Courser is the perfect 3 mana for us. Sure it competes with Eternal Witness, but she does not usually play turn 3 most times anyway. Thrun is my favorite green card, so I would actually play him over Tireless Tracker. I think with this deck it's massively important to have resilient creatures, and Thrun is the best it gets. I think I will try your deck list, but take out the Finks, TT, and Nissa VoZ, and add play 3 Coursers, 2 Thrun, and continue to play Nissa Vital Force instead. Another card that would thrive with this list is Dungrove Elder. I could easily sub out a Courser for 1ea.
I do love a Thrun in any list I can fit him, and I was actually running him mainboard with some success last Friday. He's probably the best 4 drop for our uses.
Any creature we use has to be especially difficult to remove, or give us a significant advantage besides a body. I've considered Dungrove before, but never tested him. He seems perfect for us, as we can increase his power by 1-2 every turn, and while a 2/2 on T2 is a bit anemic, it definitely holds its own within a couple turns, and the hexproof ensures it has the chance to get there. I would definitely run only basics to get the most out of him.
Vital Force was great when I could get her out, and was especially great against control and removal/wipe heavy matchups. She might still be the better choice overall.
I think I might go the hex proof/walker route as well...having a TT Fatal Push'd or Bolt'd would feel really bad. Probably still stick with a Courser just for the nice-to-have, although I'm sure it'll be a Push magnet. I really don't like my opponent interacting with my creatures lol.
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Unfortunately, I think if Aggro holds a large percentage in the sphere that you play in, shelving the deck may be the only option. Control generally folds to Aggro most, if not all, of the time
What sort of Aggro decks are you seeing? What decklist are you using?
Green doesn't have the control tools to play from behind very well. We have Ramp, Big Creatures, and LD. We don't have boardwipes to help us stall and it is hard for us to create a small army or deal with big creatures outside of death touch which is where Hornet Queen comes in. Hornet Queen though can't really stop for example all that well Elves, a good aggro Human deck, Druid/Vizier, Infect decks although we are better at affinity. Green can only handle creatures with other creatures, but there is little to turn itself around on a deck like Elves or Humans once we are behind and Humans are very good at disrupting our game plan.
It is also the problem that other green based Tribal decks or other green decks have against aggro or combo decks. The tools aren't exactly there. You can substitute some of htem like Garruk Relentless for targetted removal or beast within. Green isn't a great board state control deck.
Also, Ratchet bomb is a decent tool against aggro, as most aggro creatures are 1-2 drop. Just crank it to 1 the turn it drops and threaten with it. But yes, Humans are a pain in the ass, and have earned their place as a T1 deck.
Obviously we don't have the tools to wipe the board so I wonder if our gameplan when that happens is to just try and 'stem the bleeding' with chump blocking then keep counter-attacking with a big fatty. Something like using Beacon of Creation or Fungal Sprouting to create a line of defense and swinging hard with something huge and evasive like Ghalta, Primal Hunger or Terra Stomper (Obviously there are plenty of card options here. Green is full of fatties)
Dungrove elder would be a slightly different strategy, probably a weaker one, but resilient to targeted -1 effects and getting Pathed I guess. Although they're definitely a better topdeck than Ooze, so...testing required.
Nissa, Voice of Zendikar's +1 ability could also generate a lot of blockers and then buff them with her -1.
All 3 of these give us a T2/3 alternative to Courser for those of us who aren't a fan of playing with the top card revealed. And Nissa still gives us life/card advantage.
I’ve been following this deck since the original reddit post and last week I finally took it to a 4-1 finish at modern night at my LGS. Unfortunately, I didn’t take any notes so my recollection of these games is spotty at best. I’ve been using this list:
15 Forest
1 Pendelhaven
3 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
Creatures (21)
3 Acidic Slime
4 Arbor Elf
2 Courser of Kruphix
2 Elvish Mystic
4 Eternal Witness
1 Hornet Queen
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Stampeding Serow
1 Thragtusk
1 Tireless Tracker
2 Bramblecrush
4 Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
3 Plow Under
4 Primal Command
1 Reclaiming Vines
Enchantment (4)
4 Utopia Sprawl
2 Choke
2 Chameleon Colossus
1 Cloudthresher
1 Creeping Corrosion
1 Defense Grid
2 Mistcutter Hydra
2 Obstinate Baloth
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Scavenging Ooze
The sideboard is the way it is because of budget constraints. Instead of Thrun, the Last Troll, I used Mistcutter Hydra and instead of Trinisphere, I used a single Defense Grid that I had lying around. Creeping Corrosion should probably a Fracturing Gust and I am also not sure about Chameleon Colossus and Cloudthresher.
Once again, since I didn’t take any notes during the matches, I can only remember some things that stuck with me. My apologies.
2-1 vs. Taking Turns:
I lost game one and in game two my T2 Defense Grid got Commandeered. It was only two or three turns later that we realized that Defense Grid is a symmetrical effect and my opponent conceded. Game three he couldn’t’ t draw enough lands to keep up with my destruction.
0-2 vs. Jund:
These were some quick games. Several Tarmogoyf. Nothing I can do about that.
2-0 (or maybe 2-1) vs. Jund:
After the previous round against Jund I expected two quick losses but this time I somehow managed to keep my opponent on two lands and my Acidic Slimes kept the Tarmogoyfs, which luckily came quite late in the game, at bay. Deathtouch ftw!
2-0 vs. BW Smallpox:
Game two I somehow managed to win against three Liliana of the Veil. Primal Command also helped immensely against Bloodghast. But I guess I also got a little bit lucky because I didn't see a single Smallpox.
2-0 vs. UW Control:
Played against a friend of mine. After I got the upper hand in game one he said he for sure is going to play this out but he conceded after he had no permanents left :). In game two a lot of my stuff got Mana Leaked or Path to Exile'd but I mostly managed to keep him off Cryptic Command mana. I think there was only one turn where he cast it, and after he tapped out I played my Hornet Queen. He didn’t find a board wipe in time.
Some thoughts:
All in all, it was very fun to play and I must admit I do enjoy watching my opponent slowly fall into despair. I also believe I got lucky by not playing against an aggro deck, and I probably should not have won the match against Jund, but hey, I’ll take it
Overall, I'm finding that this deck works best when its focused on one objective, ramping into oppression. Killing the opponent is secondary and happens through chip damage for me most of the time. I've decided that for this archetype, I'll be avoiding too many extraneous cards, even forgoing Courser and Garruk for a standard amount of T1 ramp and Trinispheres. I went to 3 Ewits because I couldn't see myself cutting anything else, and I remembered there were several hands that had 2+ Ewits in it which I couldn't help but think was a bit of a waste of a T2 play. Taking out the Ewit and Mystic for the 2 mainboard Trinis had the least impact on the overall curve, and the deck ran like a dream tonight. I never even got to/had to demonstrate the Stampeders, Hornet Queen or Thragtusk, and that fact alone almost makes me want to try going up in LD effects/Slime/graveyard recursion over the bullet slots...BW control does it without big creatures, why can't we? Especially if we're able to further focus the oppression aspect of our deck.
I did land a Carnage Tyrant twice tonight, and Boseiju did some serious work as well, so those are here to stay. But I have to say that over all, I'm moving more towards focusing the consistency of the control aspect of the deck, than I am looking to diversify.
Here's my current running list. Let me know what you think.
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Arbor Elf
2 Llanowar Elves
4 Acidic Slime
1 Stampeding Wildebeests
3 Eternal Witness
Planeswalker
1 Nissa, Vital Force
Artifact
2 Trinisphere
4 Utopia Sprawl
Sorcery
3 Plow Under
4 Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
2 Bramblecrush
2 Creeping Mold
4 Primal Command
Land
1 Pendelhaven
19 Forest
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Carnage Tyrant
1 Cloudthresher
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Trinisphere
1 Hornet Queen
1 Thragtusk
1 Fracturing Gust
3 Ratchet Bomb
2 Scavenging Ooze
2x Voyaging Satyr
2x Coursers
2x Mana (optional, but I like at least 22 when I am playing less dorks)
1x LD of your choice
All of the substitute cards mentioned fall in line with your train of thought I think.
*Voyaging Satyr - 2 man Arbor elf yes, but 2 defense, and improves our chance of untapping lands which is huge for us to get our PC lock in place. Having 2 creatures out there that can untap has helped me win games at least. I love Explore here in the 2 mana spot, but I would rather have a chump block, and untap, vs. draw a card I think.
*Courser - has not tested amazing for me, but its starting to with a list like this. He is solid against removal (no fatal push, no bolt), aggro (4 defense), life gain, and thins our deck with lands.
I have even messed around adding one Craterhoof Behemoth, and I have to say it has done work.. I guess anything around that casting cost for us as green will be devastating if cast (Hornet Queen for example).
Just my 2 cents anyway.. Glad to hear you had a better go your last tournament.
I've found that I usually don't end up using my main threats to win, and that they're normally not the best thing to have in my starting hand unless I'm against the specific matchup they're there to help with. So, I opted to improve the consistency of the baseline instead, moving the big threats to the side and going up in deathtouch blockers, LD, and a single Nissa for free manlands every turn, as well as graveyard recursion and even card advantage if I want it. I have some fetchlands in the mail and will definitely be running 4 of those at least. 4-5 seems like a solid number actually.
I can see going down a Tribe Elder for a Satyr, and I don't mind running 1x Courser from time to time. But the Tribe Elders are huge for early game ramp, and that's when I want it the most. For the same reason, I kept the Mystics in as well. Our momentum is built on the backs of our opponent, and if they're ahead in lands, they're most likely winning. Getting in T2/3 LD/Trinisphere is so incredibly important to our success, I can't justify having any less than 10 T1 ramps, and no less than 3 Tribe Elders as well. They're key to our consistency.
I'd also recommend running 20 lands if you're running coursers, and trying 2x tireless Trackers. There is incredible topdeck selection/card advantage synergy within Tracker/Courser/Tribe Elder/Fetches. I'm just not a fan of how many slots it takes up in the deck myself.
But yes, I'm a believer in this Nissa as a single. The 5/5 animated lands puts the opponent on a clock or they just protect her, she can pull back Slime/Ewit/Trini, and she can even ult the turn after we play her for card advantage. She's a very, very nice to have, and might even earn one more slot from Slime or Plow Under. The main reason I like her more than Garruk is that she immediately has an effect on the battlefield. Sure Garruk untaps more lands, but I never found much of a use for the mana he made, which was only 2-3 most of the time. And yeah he minuses for a 3/3, but the summoning sickness left a lot to be desired. His Overrun ability will definitely be missed, but I think that this Nissa just better compliments the control aspects of our deck.
I do have a Craterhoof in my shopping cart, its for the Green Devo deck I'm building, but I do love the card.
I don't want to sound like 'that guy' but cracking a Fetch into Fatal Push will still kill a Courser btw. Otherwise, yes, I do think he's rather good in those capacities but like ARK, I'm not really a fan of him in the deck (according to my playstyle, that is). If it works for you, more power to ya. Definitely works well with Fetches and Trackers
I've noticed this too but I don't think it was clear to me until you wrote it out. Even when I've got someone in an EWit/P-Command loop, I find myself just wanting to search up another EWit (or if they're all gone, then a bounce creature) rather than a big finisher. I am still a little tempted to find some sort of one-of "slam-dunk"/"windmill-slam" creature that we can play that'll basically signal to our opponent "Yea, it's probably best to just scoop now". Like casting Emrakul usually does but without being as mana-intensive. I don't really expect us to ramp into THAT much mana. 'Hoof seems like a good example. I think Prime-Time usually gives off that vibe. Eh, maybe that's just me...
I think "improving the consistency of the baseline" is the way to go. Most decks in Modern aim to win on -- or at least heavily sway the game in their direction by -- Turn 4 and we need to do our best at interrupting that by optimizing our LD/oppression package. So maybe my desire for a big "I win" creature will have to wait.
Agree. "Bolt the Bird" is a valid way to slow or stop decks like ours and I think skimping on mana dorks could get us into hot water. I do really appreciate the fact that Tribe Elder can get us ahead on mana without having to stay on the board. He's a really great chump-blocker too. Definitely goes above and beyond
I think this was my main gripe with Garruk; He wasn't making an immediate impact. I think immediately down-ticking is ok but less-than-ideal and immediately upticking to produce 2 or 3 mana doesn't help us much since we don't really have any impactful 2 or 3 mana plays (except if you're playing Courser and/or Tracker, which I'm not). I think I'm going to give Nissa a try and see how it goes.
Deus is my personal favorite: he comes down a turn earlier, no one has ever seen him before (like the rest of our deck) and the opponent knows that the land drought can only spiral from here. He provides inevitability through further sadism.
Primetime is probably the most responsible choice, as in the event our opponent doesn't scoop, he ramps us from 6 to 8 which immediately enables the soft lock (primal+ewit=8 mana) and thins our deck, improving the ever-important topdecks that we tend to struggle with.
Carnage Tyrant is nearly impossible to interact with, only missing Regenerate or Indestructible to make him truly better overall than the Thrun himself. However, he represents a 3 turn clock, and is every blue players absolute worst nightmare. Especially one underneath cryptic and verdict mana through LD I gleefully side him in first against every control matchup, but he's also just a really, really good card in general.
And we can't underestimate the original - Cloudthresher. Flashing in a 7/7 to take out their biggest attacking creature, and swinging back on our turn, is nothing to overlook.
Overall though, the amount of times I've actually needed my finisher, vs the amount of times I had the game in the bag from T3 and could have won through chipping while keeping the opponent locked, has really solidified my decision to attempt to strengthen the baseline in lieu of mainboarding big creatures. I'm sure there will be times where I wish I had Thrag/Queen/Cloudthresher mainboard, but those will be dwarved by the amount of times I had a Queen in an otherwise perfect starting hand and wished it was just another slime/LD. I will miss the queen against Humans/Merfolk, but the chances of winning against Humans especially are very low to me from a significant amount of experience.
I'm interested to see how Nissa works out, just about all of her iterations seem very useful in our deck actually, this one is just the one that I liked the most.
I will take your advice on the Coursers, but I think you really need to try and add in Voyaging Satyrs (I really need to learn how to link cards). I tried them last night, and its so powerful to have early, untapping elements in this deck. I will keep in at least x2 of these, and prob bring Tribe Elders back into the deck with more LD.
I have been following the price of Carnage Tyrants for the last month because I really want to have just 1 or 2 finishers in this deck (actually, just 1 or 2 non mana producing creatures even). It just keeps going up in price... Not sure if I should just pull the trigger.
If you're looking for a decent budget version of Carnage Tyrant, maybe try Plated Crusher, Terra Stomper, or Gaea's Revenge. At least until the price changes.
Landed 2 Trinispheres for a decent price finally.. I am excited about that.
Glad to see others jumping on the Trini-train, it makes all the difference in the world. 3 in our 75 is key, amigos. Going up to 3 mainboard is still on the radar for me as well. Just balancing out the other changes first.
Yes, I think that going from mono-colored to multi-colored definitely adds more to any deck simply because adding an additional color essentially gains you access to 25% of all the Modern-playable cards that you couldn't play before. Unfortunately with Fetchlands/Shocklands being in Modern, there are very few advantages that mono-colored decks have over multi-colored decks. These being:
TL;DR: No, I don't think this is better than Ponza. This deck is similar but a bit different. Yes, I think that adding Red could gain you access to more cards and make the deck more resilient if you choose to go down the multi-colored path. As for the players who want to stick with Mono Green for the (unfortunately small) list of advantages mono-colored decks provide, I think we should aim to try and leverage those advantages -- like looking at cards that require more G in their mana cost or cards that punish multi-color/fetch/non-basic lands.
I think our deck's focus is consistency, and winning through inevitability. Ponza wants to disrupt and then move in for the kill, which may actually be a more effective strategy. But this deck is a ton of fun to play in its own right, and we're just a reprint of Ice Storm or Winter's Grasp away from going toe-to-toe with even Ponza. That may be a bit optimistic, but we're really not that far behind. Our T2 LD is a bit harder to pull off than theirs, but it happens regularly enough.
I've played the deck a bit more since my last post, and I think I've settled somewhere between going "All in" on LD/Control and having big creatures...We need some creatures in the deck to compete, and Acidic Slime/Eternal Witness isn't enough.
Using our life as a resource is one thing we already have a good capability for with P.Command, and that could be compounded by mainboarding more creatures with lifegain. These creatures also just so happen to among the most resistant creatures to removal in Modern: Kitchen Finks, Obstinate Baloth, and Thragtusk.
Thragtusk was already in the board for most builds, and he was hugely useful in stabilizing from early turns. He was also resistant to removal, and had an immediate ETB effect. I really missed him more than I thought I would when I tried to focus the deck towards LD, and realized that the lifegain was more relevant than I had thought too.
Another realization I had was that Stampeding Wildebeests is just too clunky. It dies to Fatal Push, but more often my opponent would just bolt the Slime or Ewit that I had out, forcing me to take a useless card back to hand. I really do think that, if one does want to go the route of bounce effects, either Temur Sabertooth or Cloudstone Curio are the best bets, as they keep the control over the effect in our hands. And with the limited slots we have, Sabertoth is probably the better choice (blocks/tutorable).
However, I think I may be moving away from the bounce effect entirely in favor of more mainboarded creatures. The 1G it costs to bounce with Sabertooth is relevant, and the games where I have used the bounce effect to any success have been few and far between. I think it may be better to move into a curved creature suite and away from the bounce. Doing this without affecting the LD effect or ramp consistency is what will take some testing. I also think that courser may actually have a place as at least a 1x in my new direction...Which probably means Tireless Tracker and a playset of fetches does too.
I'm thinking of testing something like this, thoughts?
3 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Arbor Elf
2 Llanowar Elves
1 Courser of Kruphix
3 Acidic Slime
3 Eternal Witness
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Thragtusk
4 Utopia Sprawl
Land
16 Forest
4 Wooded Foothills
Artifact
2 Trinisphere
Sorcery
3 Plow Under
4 Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
2 Bramblecrush
4 Primal Command
Planeswalker
1 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Cloudthresher
1 Carnage Tyrant
2 Root Maze
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
3 Ratchet Bomb
1 Trinisphere
1 Fracturing Gust
Notably, the single Nissa, Voice of Zendikar adds significant value to the Kitchen Kinks by resetting their Persist counter with her neg, while generating additional blockers every turn. I've also taken out the Pendelhaven, opting for more consistent ramp.
I looked long and hard at Finks before moving forward with the Coursers myself. I went with Coursers because of their resilience against Bolt and because they were a good T2 against aggro and burn in an otherwise slower hand. Sometime opponents would focus attention on it, burning 2 burn spells to drop it before I could gain anything from it - which is just fine with me since it bought me time to stabilize and avoid 2 spells intended for my life total.
Other than the Wal-mart scry effect, the lifegain was always quite pronounced, especially with Acid-Moss, Prime Time, and Elder. I gained far more than 4 life a game that Finks could provide after 1 persist trigger. It's not that I think Finks is bad, far from it, but Courser provides what Finks does and then some. Since you're already hanging with 1 main, maybe a 2/2 3/1 split with Tracker instead?
As far as the bounce lock, I'm with you. When it works it works very well, but it's usually better to just run more business spells or win conditions outside Neilson's stock list.
Either way, good luck!
WW Death & Taxes
GG Control
RR Skred Red
Any creature we use has to be especially difficult to remove, or give us a significant advantage besides a body. I've considered Dungrove before, but never tested him. He seems perfect for us, as we can increase his power by 1-2 every turn, and while a 2/2 on T2 is a bit anemic, it definitely holds its own within a couple turns, and the hexproof ensures it has the chance to get there. I would definitely run only basics to get the most out of him.
Vital Force was great when I could get her out, and was especially great against control and removal/wipe heavy matchups. She might still be the better choice overall.
I think I might go the hex proof/walker route as well...having a TT Fatal Push'd or Bolt'd would feel really bad. Probably still stick with a Courser just for the nice-to-have, although I'm sure it'll be a Push magnet. I really don't like my opponent interacting with my creatures lol.