Zyrnak, it's so awesome to see you here man. I just joined this forum 2 days ago and was so happy to see my niche group all in the same place. Going to watch your video then definitely get back to you with feedback and questions. I'm headed to GP Hartford to represent us all next month!
Ya I was super stoked to see you on cam with the deck. The commintators were super into the game vs elves. It's insane how that game played out it really is. I said to myself, that's just ***** luck I wonder how the rest of his games went!
Just a couple quick questions for you and the group as a whole!
Do you feel good about the 4-2 IOK TS split?
Card draw seems to be an issue for me, I was surprised to see you with no Nights Whisper!
Just a few things that I've been thinking about myself that I'd like to bounce off you guys. I run 4 FoR and was contemplating trying out a crucible in the 75 anyone have experience with this?
I also saw a BW Control deck 5-0 with 4x Leylines in the MB. Was this situational to the meta online or had anyone tried 1-4x MB themselves? I think 4 would be overkill but I've considered 1-2 myself!
Doing the best I can to get some nice foils for my trip to Hartford!
@Darkdepths- thanks for the love, glad to have you on board! Secure the wastes is a card I had previously thought about but never found it to be better than some of my other decisions. I think it’s a good card, but usually better in a UW shell. The reason is usually that UW runs less wraths and they are using it late in the game. Usually with our build the tokens don’t last too long and we don’t want to durdle as long as UW does since we don’t have the instant speed counters to back it up. We really need the PWs to resolve fairly early and use that as our wincon. My thoughts anyhow, but I’m sure worth a test. Lilly TLH doesn’t really fit into our gameplan unfortunately. While her first ability helps to defend somewhat, in the current meta, it’s not going to help us win as much as just stall. Her second is terrible in our build lol since we run few creatures, and while her ultimate is fantastic, we really need a PW with at least two of the three abilities to be worth it in order to be effective.
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@zyrnak- happy to see you on the thread, fam, and appreciate the video post. It will definitely help those new to the deck. I agree that your 5-0 list has been a main jump off for a lot of us, myself included. Since then, I sideboarded my Lilli OTV and gone more Gideon/wrath heavy, which has run really well. We definitely appreciate the feedback and any thoughts on the deck moving forward.
@Unreal207- I run 4 FoR and it has been crucial in many a matchup (Tron, Affinity, etc.). Lately I have been on a crazy streak against Tron and have managed to win my last 5 competitive MU because of my use of FoR (FYI not typical lol. Don’t get it twisted, Tron will always be a terrible MU. I’m just running hot for some reason). The fact that it let’s you fix your mana while disrupting can’t be overstated. I have run Crucible myself and while I liked it a lot, it is one of those cards that when it’s good it’s amazing, but when you topdeck it late you die with it in your hand. It can be a great SB card, but there are more all around effective cards in that slot. Sadly, until they print a better cantrip for us, card draw/selection will be a big weakness for our deck :(. The only 5-0 with maindeck Leylines I’ve seen was a while back. I’ve seen decks do this though, and the reasoning behind it had to do with the meta at the time and the fact that they usually go heavy on Lilli OTV, which helps discard them when drawn late or in multiples. I play a lot online and due to the meta, I go 4 Thoughtsieze - 2 IOK to help stop BBE, Tron, Hollowed One, and Jace. Sorry for the long post! Keep posting and good luck in Hartford!
Primer should be updated at this point in terms of card selection and information. Let me know if I'm missing anything glaring. Will be updating the matchup section throughout the week.
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Just updated the primer with the current meta matchups. Feel free to DM me to let me know if there are any issues or suggestions! Hope y'all are enjoying the thread!
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So i've been considering adding 1-2 torpor orb to the sideboard and maybe even the mainboard in place of night whispers. any thoughts on this? It hits a few decks in modern currently. It can slow down some aggro creature decks until we can stabalize and wrath
Also with the 5 wraths in deck im considering of dropping 1 bontu's last reckoning for one of the following. slaughter the strong fits the 3cmc curve board wipe and its in double white(this card could be great against humans, affinity, and boggles since it doesn't target player. Also considering Fumigateas a 5 mana wrath that gains us life to stabalize (we should have enough removal with discard/path/push to stabilize till turn 5.
I'm wondering why you guys choose to run lost legacy or cranial over surgical extraction? also why fragmatize is chosen when we have powerful instant speed removal like disenchant?
I'd have to look deeper into what topper orb actually hits for creatures. From first glance I'd have to say no though, definitely in place of Nights Whisper. Giving card draw up for a sup par situational artifact sounds meh. The white slaughter is just a bad version of Bontus IMO. I could see running the fumigate. I feel like the life gain would be sub par since you'd only be hitting a few creatures at a time. But if you have a meta with spell quellers in Modern I could see it being in on one of the five slots.
Cranial just hits any nonland card. Lost legacy hits on turn 3 and that's a huge difference, but cranial can hit anything. Including wurmcoil from a Tron deck or stripping emrakuls from a Breach Moon deck.
@roguetacticss- I’ve run Torpor Orb before and it was great in a Humans heavy meta. Otherwise it’s not very impressive compared to other cards you could put in its place and I soon realized I was rarely ever boarding it in. Our deck is already favored when it comes to aggressive creature decks, as they basically tend to overextend and our wrath/spot removal can handle before resolving PWs. In Modern, the decks this card hits best are those who need the ETB trigger to really function but those decks don’t represent a large portion of the current meta (although your local may vary). It can’t hit Jund, Tron, Boggles, Hollowed One, Affinity, Dredge, Company, etc., all of which are aggressive creature decks that are more troublesome. Also, if it’s not in your opener, it’s a baaaad topdeck. I would recommend that if your meta is heavy Humans and you’re really struggling against it, put it in the SB, but otherwise think we have enough going for us that we have the upper hand. The issue with Slaughter is that it only hit creatures with power levels 5 and above. If you are trying to wipe a board by turn 3 it’s not usually because of a 5+ Power creature, it’s usually because the board is completely full, the opponents hand is empty, and you need to emergency stabilize pronto (ie Affinity, Dredge, or Hollowed One). In that case, Bontu is better as Slaughter may not stop anything. Fumigate is fine as well, but the additional bits of lifegain may not be worth much, especially if there’s only a few creatures on board. I would hate to topdeck that when I needed a wrath but didn’t have the necessary mana. I could be wrong though, and I’m sure it’s nice to get something out of our dead tokens. As for Surgical, I always run 1, due to the fact it hits lands, making it great against Tron. It is a great SB card and can help out in many MUs. The only drawback is that your opponents card needs to be in the graveyard, which isn’t always the case with combo decks. That’s why we also run Cranial or Lost Legacy, so that we can simply name it by turn 4 and shut off the combo before it happens. Hope all that is helpful!
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Hey everyone! Took part in a local tournament last night. Nothing too big but had some local pro and semi-pro players, which was cool. Didn't have the best finish but thought I'd write a mini report:
(3-3 overall)
Match 1: Jund (2-1)
-G1 W; early spot removal kept the board clean before resolving a lil Giddy and GAoZ on curve for a smooth victory while he flooded out
-G2 L; despite some early discard and a Lingering Souls, he topdecked 3 BBE in a row for the loss
- G3 W; a grindy win that I pulled out on 1 life when I forced him to attack with all. Resolved a Sorin, SV next turn to pump my creatures and won off the last swing.
Match 2: Heartless Valuetown (1-2)
-G1 L; I've never heard of this deck, much less played against it. I had no clue what the combo was, so wound up figuring it out too late
-G2 W; I threw out a Rest In Peace before he comboed off and wrathed the board after. It was gg a few turns later
-G3 L; I kept a shady opening hand bc I had Leyline but he was able to quickly resolve his creatures while I flooded out and drew no action for the loss
Match 3: Mono Red Devotion (1-2)
-G1 L; Another deck I haven't played, basically Burn with more resistant creatures and Demigod. I thought I had stabilized and emblemed a resolved Lil Giddy but he managed to put in two Demigods in play to kill my GotT and me in one swing.
-G2 W; Leyline, Rest In Peace, and Cranial Extracting his Demigods made this an easy win
-G3 L; Had a Leyline in play on a 3 land opening. Had two wraths in hand but drew no lands or removal as he resolved creatures and haste tokens for a fast clock. Just really bad draws which left me tilted.
Match 4: Rakdos Burn (2-1)
-G1 W; This was fairly easy. Early discard, quick removal, Collective Brutality, and GotT kept the game out of reach. Once Sorin SV resolved, he scooped.
-G2 L; Had a great hand of early interaction. Then he Blood Mooned turn 3. Didn't draw a single basic and got wrecked
-G3 W; turn 1 Thoughtseize took his Blood Moon and he had a hand full of Skullcrack. I Runed Haloed SC on turn 2 and he started to flood out. Two Collective Brutality and two Shambling Vents made this another easy W.
Match 5: R/G Eldrazi (0-2)
-G1 L; I kept a three land hand and failed to draw another until late in the game, while TKS and Reality Smashers came through. I managed to wrath but he drew a BBE which killed me next turn.
-G2 L; I had him dead to rights after an early Liliana otV kept stripping his hand. Unfortunately he topdecked the land he needed to put out a BBE into Obligator, which killed my Lilli and started the beats ftw.
Match 6: Affinity (2-0)
G1 was won off a hilariously timed Settle The Wreckage, wiping both his board and two manlands before I resolved a PW next turn. G2 was won off a Stony Silence into GotT into wrath on curve
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This is an interesting list for sure. I cannot argue with the result, but there are some things I don't like about it. Lingering Souls and Path to Exile are THE reason to even play white in Modern and there is neither in the mainboard. Especially in conjunction with Lili, Souls is too much value to pass up in my opinion. Oath of Liliana can be a lot of value too with such high amounts of planeswalkers, but against the go-wide-aggro meta we have at the moment I would much rather stabilize with Souls into Wrath than Oath into planeswalker. No Path probably makes sense with the design of the deck; everything Push cannot hit can be hit by the sacrifice effects. But then again, with Gideon of the Trials we are well equipped to fight sole targets anyway. The only meta I would be happy to play this version would be against a field full of Boggles
GPash, appreciate the post! Do you know who ran the list? Eternal_Infinity, I agree with your comments. While we can get away with shaving a few PtE with our suite of Fatal Pushes and wraths, I feel the Lingering Souls is a big loss to the list. Oath of Liliana seems a little too conditional to warrant playing over Souls, and Collective Brutality is another card that provides several answers MB that is not there. The 4 Lilli OTV is all in for sure, and I am interested to know how much the discard effect impacted their play. Their SB choices are also very interesting and I wonder what their matchups looked like.
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Edit: Pushed the wrong button Anywho, I don't run either because I don't believe I would win faster by playing Gideon, Ally of Zendikar on turn 3 instead of 4 or even Gideon Jura on turn 4 instead of 5.
In reference to walls, thoughts on going creatureless are stated above. With the large amount of removal in the format, it's great to make an opponents removal useless game 1.
So after playing the deck a few more times over the past few weeks, I'm not sure the amount of finishers we have are that great. Deck seems really slow even mid game unless you have 2-3 PW resolved and ticking and often opponents can stabilize if we don't put heat out.
I'm considering adding a way to cheat large mana creatures into the deck to really finish a match. I'm considering either splashing red for a nahiri/emerakul combo. Or splashing blue for a polymorph combo with tokens. A great way to run the latter combo would be masterminds acquisition as a 1 or 2 of in the deck. It would allow us to tutor a polymorph or unburiel rights in the sideboard (or also tutor anything we need at that moment like land or a wrath effect) and put a 1 of emrakul into play. The nahiri combo is obvious play 1-2 of her and emrakul and try to ultimate.
What are your thoughts?
The combo would essentially look as such
2 masterminds acquisition and 1 emrakul main board
Turn 3 play lingering souls
Turn 4 play masterminds acquisition (tutor polymorph if emrakul is in your deck, unburial rites if in your hand)
Turn 5 cast polymorph/rites and get emrakul (can also consider SB elesh norn/Iona shield)
(we would use collective brutality, inquisition/thoughtsieze, Liliana to get emrakul to GY)
I know this is a dedicated Orzhov thread but I as well have been thinking about a red splash. Fiddling a bit with the mana base and only adding 5 additional cards. 4x Nahiri and 1x Emrakul. I really like the roots to my BW deck but I'd like to make it a bit quicker. I'm having a lot of draws.
In reference to The orzhov artifacts mentioned, these cards are not necessary for the deck to run properly or even more efficiently. The orzhov signet does not actually ramp, it just mana fixes while the other two will allow you to get an extra mana on turn three, but unfortunately you still won't be able to utilize it to put out a PW until turned four since you're tapped out putting the artifact in play, so technically neither of them actually put our PW out faster. They just fix mana which Bc we only play two colors, I'm not concerned about. Which brings me to the next topic of splashing red.
For some time after the pro tour, I thought Mardu was the way to go with this deck, as we could then have access to cards like Lightning Bolt, Ajani Vengeant, and Nahiri. What I've found is that:
-Blood Moon and land hate have become more common and with our deck running two colors, it helps hedge against these styles of decks as we run a less painful manabase
-While we gain access to more reach and card draw splashing red, the deck actually didn't run much faster and felt bad without creatures to play. It was definitely more Midrange than control.
-The decklist has to pretty much change entirely. Running three colors is generally seen in decks with low CMC cards and not as many mixed mana cards. The "ideal" build currently looks like the Mardu Control/Pyromancer deck, which is very different. Even if you're just splashing for more reach or card draw, you'll have to consider what you're will to give up in exchange and if we're forcing the deck to try to do too much.
I would also refer the comment above to the Mastermind's Acquisition. I think there might be a build where it's a nice "gotcha" card and can Tutor in an answer but by that time, you should technically be ahead or at least stabilizing. It also looks like there would have to be quite a bit of mana fixing for those combos to be effective. As far as "finishers", are you struggling with something in particular? With our array of wraths and PWs we should technically have some of the best finishers available.
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I've noticed I particularly struggle against other control decks such as esper and jeskai. Also against burn. Boros charm trades 1 for 1 for all but 3 of our planes walkers and makes a wrath a timewalk for our opponent with indestructible. I think I agree with you it's really the lack of card draw because the blue decks have so many cantrips and snapcaster just produces so much card advantage while we just hope to topdeck.
@Ariesnomu- you are correct, I thought it said “or” for some reason. Yes, the card draw/selection is definitely the decks weakness, but unfortunately until they print something for us in BW in the upcoming sets, were kind of screwed on that aspect. That would definitely help push us over the top, but for the time being, Night’s Whisper and Omens are probably the best two if you choose to run card draw in this build.
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@roguetactics- I used to struggle myself originally against control and burn MUs, however they have become much better over time and usually are among my better matches at this point. A lot of it has to do with changing up your tactics when facing them and knowing when to resolve certain cards. Both are difficult and require tight play but continue to grind through and find those MUs for additional practice and exposure!
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I've been replacing the slot of night's whisper in Zyrnaks shell with a Arguel's blood fast. I tell you, it's an insane draw combo when you have it on the board with a gideon of the trials emblem. i think this is the decks lack of fuel in the draw card department. the thing you need to do is to reach midgame with an even board state with sweepers and some planeswalkers in your favour.
So i recomend highly to try Arguel's blood fast. and test it in a 1-2 slot, kinda like Azcanta is used in a blue control decks.
Also Liliana of the Veil as a one of instead of a full set of Gideon, Ally of Zendikar is more for utility than actual gameplan, against outlier decks like Restore Balance, mill, etc or decks that we can't effectively deal with like bogles or scapeshift.
For big creature finishers, i think Obzedat, Ghost Council is pretty good. I mean, the point is to do and ORZHOV build, not a mardu one, there are perfect orzhov creatures that are full of utility, we don't need to splash other colors for it.
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Just a couple quick questions for you and the group as a whole!
Do you feel good about the 4-2 IOK TS split?
Card draw seems to be an issue for me, I was surprised to see you with no Nights Whisper!
Just a few things that I've been thinking about myself that I'd like to bounce off you guys. I run 4 FoR and was contemplating trying out a crucible in the 75 anyone have experience with this?
I also saw a BW Control deck 5-0 with 4x Leylines in the MB. Was this situational to the meta online or had anyone tried 1-4x MB themselves? I think 4 would be overkill but I've considered 1-2 myself!
Doing the best I can to get some nice foils for my trip to Hartford!
UWAzorius Titan ControlUW
BWOrzhov ControlBW
@Unreal207- I run 4 FoR and it has been crucial in many a matchup (Tron, Affinity, etc.). Lately I have been on a crazy streak against Tron and have managed to win my last 5 competitive MU because of my use of FoR (FYI not typical lol. Don’t get it twisted, Tron will always be a terrible MU. I’m just running hot for some reason). The fact that it let’s you fix your mana while disrupting can’t be overstated. I have run Crucible myself and while I liked it a lot, it is one of those cards that when it’s good it’s amazing, but when you topdeck it late you die with it in your hand. It can be a great SB card, but there are more all around effective cards in that slot. Sadly, until they print a better cantrip for us, card draw/selection will be a big weakness for our deck :(. The only 5-0 with maindeck Leylines I’ve seen was a while back. I’ve seen decks do this though, and the reasoning behind it had to do with the meta at the time and the fact that they usually go heavy on Lilli OTV, which helps discard them when drawn late or in multiples. I play a lot online and due to the meta, I go 4 Thoughtsieze - 2 IOK to help stop BBE, Tron, Hollowed One, and Jace. Sorry for the long post! Keep posting and good luck in Hartford!
UWAzorius Titan ControlUW
BWOrzhov ControlBW
UWAzorius Titan ControlUW
BWOrzhov ControlBW
UWAzorius Titan ControlUW
BWOrzhov ControlBW
Also with the 5 wraths in deck im considering of dropping 1 bontu's last reckoning for one of the following. slaughter the strong fits the 3cmc curve board wipe and its in double white(this card could be great against humans, affinity, and boggles since it doesn't target player. Also considering Fumigateas a 5 mana wrath that gains us life to stabalize (we should have enough removal with discard/path/push to stabilize till turn 5.
I'm wondering why you guys choose to run lost legacy or cranial over surgical extraction? also why fragmatize is chosen when we have powerful instant speed removal like disenchant?
Cranial just hits any nonland card. Lost legacy hits on turn 3 and that's a huge difference, but cranial can hit anything. Including wurmcoil from a Tron deck or stripping emrakuls from a Breach Moon deck.
UWAzorius Titan ControlUW
BWOrzhov ControlBW
(3-3 overall)
Match 1: Jund (2-1)
-G1 W; early spot removal kept the board clean before resolving a lil Giddy and GAoZ on curve for a smooth victory while he flooded out
-G2 L; despite some early discard and a Lingering Souls, he topdecked 3 BBE in a row for the loss
- G3 W; a grindy win that I pulled out on 1 life when I forced him to attack with all. Resolved a Sorin, SV next turn to pump my creatures and won off the last swing.
Match 2: Heartless Valuetown (1-2)
-G1 L; I've never heard of this deck, much less played against it. I had no clue what the combo was, so wound up figuring it out too late
-G2 W; I threw out a Rest In Peace before he comboed off and wrathed the board after. It was gg a few turns later
-G3 L; I kept a shady opening hand bc I had Leyline but he was able to quickly resolve his creatures while I flooded out and drew no action for the loss
Match 3: Mono Red Devotion (1-2)
-G1 L; Another deck I haven't played, basically Burn with more resistant creatures and Demigod. I thought I had stabilized and emblemed a resolved Lil Giddy but he managed to put in two Demigods in play to kill my GotT and me in one swing.
-G2 W; Leyline, Rest In Peace, and Cranial Extracting his Demigods made this an easy win
-G3 L; Had a Leyline in play on a 3 land opening. Had two wraths in hand but drew no lands or removal as he resolved creatures and haste tokens for a fast clock. Just really bad draws which left me tilted.
Match 4: Rakdos Burn (2-1)
-G1 W; This was fairly easy. Early discard, quick removal, Collective Brutality, and GotT kept the game out of reach. Once Sorin SV resolved, he scooped.
-G2 L; Had a great hand of early interaction. Then he Blood Mooned turn 3. Didn't draw a single basic and got wrecked
-G3 W; turn 1 Thoughtseize took his Blood Moon and he had a hand full of Skullcrack. I Runed Haloed SC on turn 2 and he started to flood out. Two Collective Brutality and two Shambling Vents made this another easy W.
Match 5: R/G Eldrazi (0-2)
-G1 L; I kept a three land hand and failed to draw another until late in the game, while TKS and Reality Smashers came through. I managed to wrath but he drew a BBE which killed me next turn.
-G2 L; I had him dead to rights after an early Liliana otV kept stripping his hand. Unfortunately he topdecked the land he needed to put out a BBE into Obligator, which killed my Lilli and started the beats ftw.
Match 6: Affinity (2-0)
G1 was won off a hilariously timed Settle The Wreckage, wiping both his board and two manlands before I resolved a PW next turn. G2 was won off a Stony Silence into GotT into wrath on curve
UWAzorius Titan ControlUW
BWOrzhov ControlBW
2 Gideon Jura
3 Gideon of the Trials
3 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
3 Wall of Omens
2 Damnation
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Night’s Whisper
3 Thoughtseize
2 Wrath of God
4 Fatal Push
2 Oath of Liliana
4 Field of Ruin
2 Godless Shrine
2 Isolated Chapel
4 Marsh Flats
4 Plains
4 Shambling Vent
4 Swamp
2 Collective Brutality
1 Duress
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Lingering Souls
3 Rest In Peace
3 Stony Silence
UWAzorius Titan ControlUW
BWOrzhov ControlBW
Also what are peoples takes on splashing red for a mardu build?
Edit: Pushed the wrong button Anywho, I don't run either because I don't believe I would win faster by playing Gideon, Ally of Zendikar on turn 3 instead of 4 or even Gideon Jura on turn 4 instead of 5.
I'm considering adding a way to cheat large mana creatures into the deck to really finish a match. I'm considering either splashing red for a nahiri/emerakul combo. Or splashing blue for a polymorph combo with tokens. A great way to run the latter combo would be masterminds acquisition as a 1 or 2 of in the deck. It would allow us to tutor a polymorph or unburiel rights in the sideboard (or also tutor anything we need at that moment like land or a wrath effect) and put a 1 of emrakul into play. The nahiri combo is obvious play 1-2 of her and emrakul and try to ultimate.
What are your thoughts?
The combo would essentially look as such
2 masterminds acquisition and 1 emrakul main board
Turn 3 play lingering souls
Turn 4 play masterminds acquisition (tutor polymorph if emrakul is in your deck, unburial rites if in your hand)
Turn 5 cast polymorph/rites and get emrakul (can also consider SB elesh norn/Iona shield)
(we would use collective brutality, inquisition/thoughtsieze, Liliana to get emrakul to GY)
For some time after the pro tour, I thought Mardu was the way to go with this deck, as we could then have access to cards like Lightning Bolt, Ajani Vengeant, and Nahiri. What I've found is that:
-Blood Moon and land hate have become more common and with our deck running two colors, it helps hedge against these styles of decks as we run a less painful manabase
-While we gain access to more reach and card draw splashing red, the deck actually didn't run much faster and felt bad without creatures to play. It was definitely more Midrange than control.
-The decklist has to pretty much change entirely. Running three colors is generally seen in decks with low CMC cards and not as many mixed mana cards. The "ideal" build currently looks like the Mardu Control/Pyromancer deck, which is very different. Even if you're just splashing for more reach or card draw, you'll have to consider what you're will to give up in exchange and if we're forcing the deck to try to do too much.
I would also refer the comment above to the Mastermind's Acquisition. I think there might be a build where it's a nice "gotcha" card and can Tutor in an answer but by that time, you should technically be ahead or at least stabilizing. It also looks like there would have to be quite a bit of mana fixing for those combos to be effective. As far as "finishers", are you struggling with something in particular? With our array of wraths and PWs we should technically have some of the best finishers available.
UWAzorius Titan ControlUW
BWOrzhov ControlBW
UWAzorius Titan ControlUW
BWOrzhov ControlBW
UWAzorius Titan ControlUW
BWOrzhov ControlBW
So i recomend highly to try Arguel's blood fast. and test it in a 1-2 slot, kinda like Azcanta is used in a blue control decks.
Also Liliana of the Veil as a one of instead of a full set of Gideon, Ally of Zendikar is more for utility than actual gameplan, against outlier decks like Restore Balance, mill, etc or decks that we can't effectively deal with like bogles or scapeshift.
For big creature finishers, i think Obzedat, Ghost Council is pretty good. I mean, the point is to do and ORZHOV build, not a mardu one, there are perfect orzhov creatures that are full of utility, we don't need to splash other colors for it.