I think if anything it pushes the deck more into UW for the Jace + Terminus interaction. Terminus also being the perfect board clear to precede Living End. Plus we can put Terminus on top, and draw it at instant speed on our opponent's turn with a cycler.
Search for Azcanta is at least a 2-of, because it ramps into Jace and helps dig for Terminus.
The question is, what do you cut to fit all that stuff? And why not just play a straight UW deck instead? Why would we need Terminus when we already have Living End as a board wipe? They're both fairly slow to setup and luck dependent.
Jund is also a very tough matchup in my experience. This deck was in a sweet spot where Jund was at an all-time low, but BBE unban may (or may not!) increase it's prevalence.
It's too early to tell, but I'm not seeing these unbans as being good for Blue Living End. The format will actually get more aggressive because of this. I dislike this unban already.
(Edited out some negative comments.)
im not using jace's plus 2 to target myself, generally i target my opponent. i can't stress this enough though that jace is more of a way out of sticky situations than a win con in itself. it just happens to also win the game if left alone. but his 0 ability really comes in handy when you need to find as foretold late in the game.
The problem with straight countering in the eldrazi tron matchup is that they now have a fatty in the GY so I have to find an answer for that.
I think I would rather slow them down and have them go at my speed instead of them slamming Matter Reshapers and Reality Smashers.
Your post didn't mention Eldrazi so I asumed you menat the "traditional" Tron deck.
I don't think that Spreading Seas is particulary good against Eldrazi Tron either.
I feel like the reasons should be numerous and obvious but I'll pick on the most important one;
You don't want to only reliably be able to cast your important sweeper *after* resolving a four mana planeswalker. Yes we have living end but bleugh. Not what we want.
I also think we want to consider 1 or 2x Jace as a lock for the deck. As a control/combo deck, we can use every mode from Jace effectively, and he's a great way to pull ahead or offer a different angle of attack in our trickier matchup.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
I feel like the reasons should be numerous and obvious but I'll pick on the most important one;
You don't want to only reliably be able to cast your important sweeper *after* resolving a four mana planeswalker. Yes we have living end but bleugh. Not what we want.
I also think we want to consider 1 or 2x Jace as a lock for the deck. As a control/combo deck, we can use every mode from Jace effectively, and he's a great way to pull ahead or offer a different angle of attack in our trickier matchup.
wow definitely agree with this post. we don't need 3-4 jaces since we usually draw about half our deck anyways, but yes every mode for jace is good for us and the fact that he is his own win con that can get around bridge and graveyard hate is an added bonus
Agree on Jace, I think he can be good as a 1 or 2 of, but it's not our main gameplan, it would actually play a similar role to Azcanta.
They both help us advance our gameplan (Azcanta is better here being able to come down earlier), and if left unchecked they can run away with the game (Jace being better here since it does everything by himself rather than helping get other answers)
Owning no Jaces currently, I certainly will not buy in the middle of this hype, as I'm confident after the reprint the value will return to it's 70ish range (hopefully even a bit lower). I don't think many decks will play more than 2 of, and this reprint is a massive one, for the 25th anniversary and one available even at stores like Walmart and Target, with cards from every set of Magic History.
Edit: For 2x Jace, I would trim 1 Cryptic and 1 creature likely. Playing Jace and trimming Cryptics would certainly make a splash more appealing, since playing some fetches would have an additional upside with the brainstorming.
Hello, I played an URB As Foretold Living End deck yesterday at a MTGO league (after seeing a SCG list), and I was pleasantly surprised (beat Bogles and some UR and UB control decks). However, red was kind of a weak spot for me - I was hoping to use Madcap+Emperion vs Burn, and Kari Zev's Expertise which was a dead card.
Looking at the lists in this thread, I see many people are using White instead. I'm actually considering going up to 4-colors and do some weird hybrid with Violent Outburst (like a slot machine, would usually pull either Ancestral Vision or Living End but might hit a non-0 card).
From Black, I loved having access to discard, especially Collective Brutality. For some brainfart reason I wasn't playing Fatal Push.
I can see that having Path or Condemn would be great vs some decks, but honestly I just want a fast Living End vs many of those - that's why I'm considering Violent Outburst.
Anybody on an UB list or something different? I'm also needing a sideboard vs Burn and Storm.
I won 1st at FNM yesterday and it was a quick version of the deck that I planned and sleeved 2 hours before FNM.
It was chalice-based and I used Simian Spirit Guides to power out T1 chalices and T2 As Foretolds. Knowledge of SSG made opponents play around 1 untapped mana, to their detriment. It is a tight list but it has won me FNM so that gives me comfidence in the build.
Nimble Obstructionist gives me surprise interactions all the time. Against Ad Naus, I countered gemstone mine’s ETB trigger of adding mine counters (didnt realize it was an ETB trigger until last night) to destroy his land and set him back a couple of precious turns.
You wouldn't know that, but Gemstone Mine was errata'd so it's no longer a triggered ability. I guess no-one called a judge or checked for the updated wording, I understand the mistake because as originally worded it was a triggered ability
You wouldn't know that, but Gemstone Mine was errata'd so it's no longer a triggered ability. I guess no-one called a judge or checked for the updated wording, I understand the mistake because as originally worded it was a triggered ability
Quick rundown of the last Friday's FNM. I played the list below and went 4-0 (Won the tournament) with 12 People playing.
Mono B vampires
2-0
Cycled a lot, found LE and as foretold, had 3 street wraiths + curator come back both games with living end, wiping his board. Bashing for 13 "unblockable" damage (flying + swampwalk). Quick 2 games.
Affinity
2-1
Lost game 1 after getting bashed to 4 and a galvanic blast finished me off.
Sideboarded game 1 collective brutality and engineered explosives did all the work. I did get galvanic blasted for 8 in a single turn though. Played around ravager and eventually got control back and basically won by hardcasting curator and beating him down.
Game 2 opponent sided in 2 grafdigger's cages and drew both in his opening hand without much additional interaction. Cycled 1 curator, 1 riverwinder and 2 street wraiths, got as foretold and living ended. Sad opponent.
Merfolk
2-0
Drew the nuts, opponent played bad, wiped his board and beat him down.
Game 2
Opponent has a greedy keep, 1-lander + vial. I get 27 power in the yard and living end. Game over.
Mono G devotion
2-0
Very fun games, lot's of interaction.
Have to LE without anything in my yard to slow the game down. Hardcast curator, counter his big stuff. 4 in the air every turn slowly kills him.
Game 2 Tolaria for EE wipes his 1 drops, field of ruins keep his nykthos in check. Eventually cast all 4 ancestrals, hardcast curators and nimbles. win by attacking him in the air.
Collective Brutality, EE and Nimble Obstructionist are the real MVP's in the sideboard.
Game 2 opponent sided in 2 grafdigger's cages and drew both in his opening hand without much additional interaction. Cycled 1 curator, 1 riverwinder and 2 street wraiths, got as foretold and living ended. Sad opponent.
Having to break it to your opponent that their Grafdigger's cage isn't going to do what they want it to do makes for some seriously weird simultaneous feelgood/feelbad moments.
Took my list to the Card Kingdom 1K this past weekend. There were 7 rounds of Swiss, and I started the day with a 5-0 record, good for double ID into Top 8 as the 2 seed. I proceeded to then mulligan to 4 on the play against Abzan (I later found out that his opener that game was 3 lands, Inquisition, Thoughtseize, LotV. I lost and was sad, but at least I placed well.
I do love playing Chalices mainboard. It feels good against the fast decks (exception being Affinity, but even then Chalice on 1 locks out Galvanic Blast. We can win a lot of games off the strength of the deck’s win condition against the slower decks.
Moving forward, I’ll be cutting Obstructionist and Supreme Will completely and a single Cryptic to make room for 2 Jaces, and 3 Simian Spirit Guides. It makes me sad, since I have a soft spot for all those cards, but I think Jace is simply too strong not to play while Simian Spirit Guide can power out completely busted turns (Foretold on 2, Chalice for 1 on 1, and Jace on 3 seem really good). I also have all my games for the past month recorded in my notes along with deck archetype, and will compile them all into an easy to read data report at some point. More to come.
Agree on Jace, I think he can be good as a 1 or 2 of, but it's not our main gameplan, it would actually play a similar role to Azcanta.
They both help us advance our gameplan (Azcanta is better here being able to come down earlier), and if left unchecked they can run away with the game (Jace being better here since it does everything by himself rather than helping get other answers)
Owning no Jaces currently, I certainly will not buy in the middle of this hype, as I'm confident after the reprint the value will return to it's 70ish range (hopefully even a bit lower). I don't think many decks will play more than 2 of, and this reprint is a massive one, for the 25th anniversary and one available even at stores like Walmart and Target, with cards from every set of Magic History.
I was thinking about that and....i actually don't think it will. If Jace proves to be as good as I think he is, there is virtually no reason why it would ever go back to 70$.
The perfect example of this is...Goyf. The card dropped down to around 70$ (and it's back up now!) after what? 4 printings? Jace has only been reprinted once (i don't count the horrible FTV versions) and it's next reprint is in a masters set...with packs costing between 10-15$. Imagine if the packs are like EMA...you think it'll matter that it'll be at Walmart? No one is going to crack them.
History will have you show that it going back down to 70$ is pure fantasy. If you wanna play Jace, you need to get on this train now and take your losses. Hell, i would be worried that not only does it not go back down, that it goes up and stays up!
Game 2 opponent sided in 2 grafdigger's cages and drew both in his opening hand without much additional interaction. Cycled 1 curator, 1 riverwinder and 2 street wraiths, got as foretold and living ended. Sad opponent.
Having to break it to your opponent that their Grafdigger's cage isn't going to do what they want it to do makes for some seriously weird simultaneous feelgood/feelbad moments.
True, but being one living end side of things, it's mostly feelgood though!
Anyways, the guy said: rather have it happened here than at a large event. Never going to forget that again.
Took my list to the Card Kingdom 1K this past weekend. There were 7 rounds of Swiss, and I started the day with a 5-0 record, good for double ID into Top 8 as the 2 seed. I proceeded to then mulligan to 4 on the play against Abzan (I later found out that his opener that game was 3 lands, Inquisition, Thoughtseize, LotV. I lost and was sad, but at least I placed well.
I do love playing Chalices mainboard. It feels good against the fast decks (exception being Affinity, but even then Chalice on 1 locks out Galvanic Blast. We can win a lot of games off the strength of the deck’s win condition against the slower decks.
Moving forward, I’ll be cutting Obstructionist and Supreme Will completely and a single Cryptic to make room for 2 Jaces, and 3 Simian Spirit Guides. It makes me sad, since I have a soft spot for all those cards, but I think Jace is simply too strong not to play while Simian Spirit Guide can power out completely busted turns (Foretold on 2, Chalice for 1 on 1, and Jace on 3 seem really good). I also have all my games for the past month recorded in my notes along with deck archetype, and will compile them all into an easy to read data report at some point. More to come.
Took my list to the Card Kingdom 1K this past weekend. There were 7 rounds of Swiss, and I started the day with a 5-0 record, good for double ID into Top 8 as the 2 seed. I proceeded to then mulligan to 4 on the play against Abzan (I later found out that his opener that game was 3 lands, Inquisition, Thoughtseize, LotV. I lost and was sad, but at least I placed well.
I do love playing Chalices mainboard. It feels good against the fast decks (exception being Affinity, but even then Chalice on 1 locks out Galvanic Blast. We can win a lot of games off the strength of the deck’s win condition against the slower decks.
Moving forward, I’ll be cutting Obstructionist and Supreme Will completely and a single Cryptic to make room for 2 Jaces, and 3 Simian Spirit Guides. It makes me sad, since I have a soft spot for all those cards, but I think Jace is simply too strong not to play while Simian Spirit Guide can power out completely busted turns (Foretold on 2, Chalice for 1 on 1, and Jace on 3 seem really good). I also have all my games for the past month recorded in my notes along with deck archetype, and will compile them all into an easy to read data report at some point. More to come.
Congratulations!
We are aligned on the simians. I have played the chalice version with simians and it is very strong because of the explosive plays and because our curve is awkward, and all the cantrips and card draw offset the initial card disadvantage. Chalice is also great game vs burn, and as such agree that white leylines become unneeded too. With the simians I went down to 19 lands and it has been ok.
Well, we'll have to wait and see.
I certainly wouldn't buy now, since once M25 is published, the price will go down for sure (only reason for it not to would be some absolutely busted deck crushing every tournament, and then I wouldn't buy for fear of a re-ban). And this set is the 25th anniversary, there's no way they'll get it wrong. People will be opening this all over (me and several friends who never buy boxes will buy a box of this, as an annecdotal example). I think next week we start getting spoilers, so we'll have a better idea then I guess.
My opinion at this point is that when the hype passes and the dust settles, he will have his place in some decks and be another powerful card, like Lili of the Veil at most let's say.
I could be wrong and he truly is busted, but from what I've seen this week, I'm kind of optimistic that Modern will handle it well and it will be just another powerful card in the format.
Really, I have seen more impressive performances from that obnoxious elf than from Jace so far (and to be clear, I was totally on the "he is broken and shouldn't be unbanned" boat before the announcement). Maybe it's just a matter of time until somebody finds him the proper shell and breaks the format, I will for sure wait until this reprint is through before buying it.
Recent innovation with simian spirit guide interests me, but I wonder how good this truly is when the best Chalice deck in modern doesn't even bother anymore (eldrazi tron).
I've got a playset of spirit guides sleeved up ready to go, but realistically what does this card offer that some powerful counterspells or interaction don't?
Fair question I feel. Would love to have that discussion.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
Recent innovation with simian spirit guide interests me, but I wonder how good this truly is when the best Chalice deck in modern doesn't even bother anymore (eldrazi tron).
I've got a playset of spirit guides sleeved up ready to go, but realistically what does this card offer that some powerful counterspells or interaction don't?
Fair question I feel. Would love to have that discussion.
I think that one of the reasons why E-Tron doesn’t play it is because it has no need for it. The deck is already playing Tron lands with Temples to accelerate their mana, and their best 1 mana play is map anyways. I’ve always thought of E-Tron as a deck that can often beat you without Chalices, it just happens to play them and sometimes score free wins off of them. I think that our deck is in the same vein, but we have more high impact plays than E-Tron does at a more consistent rate.
What I mean by this is that yes, E-Tron will sometimes Karn you on 3, but by and large, they’re playing TKS on 3. Compare this to our deck that’s built around our namesake card in As Foretold - resolving it earlier in the game gives it longer to have an impact, and we can offset the card disadvantage with the draw from our DIY Ancestral Recalls. If I had the choice between interaction and As Foretold on turn 2, I think I would take the latter every time, even against aggressive strategies, because of how strong our deck is when we have one in play.
That’s not even the entire argument for the SSGs though - that’s the beauty of it. Sometimes you DO need the interaction, or maybe the game will just be won if you resolve a Chalice on 1. Sometimes you want to resolve a vital spell before your opponent hits you with Thoughtseize or TKS. For those matchups, you get to SSG into Chalice on turn 1, and brick your opponent out of the game for a while. That kind of upside is huge, and the flexibility of the card to buy us time - not by delaying our opponent, but accelerating our game plan - is the biggest argument for it IMO. Especially with Jace coming into the format - we can SSG into Jace on 3, and brick a lot of the Abrupt Decays of the world while at the same time resolve a must-answer threat against midrange or control decks.
We don’t even have to play 4 - our deck is already fine without the acceleration, you can just put SSG into your flex spots. I don’t know if I would cut lands, because lands are still good for our deck, but there’s certainly some awkward cards that I think could be cut for it.
I suppose the argument for SSG is tied in huge part to the inclusion of Chalice in our deck - it’s not nearly as good when you’re pitching a SSG for a non-permanent that doesn’t continue to influence the game, and Chalice is about the most backbreaking 2-drop our deck can reasonably play. They aren’t vital to our game plan - they just help us put out our haymakers faster, and when we’re playing a color not at all known for accelerating the pace of the game, the surprise factor ‘gets’ people; your blue opponents can’t tap out as frequently because they have to respect that you might just have it, and your nonblue opponent have to respect even a single Island when they try to resolve their key spell (ie. Jace) only for it to be hit by SSG-Remand after you ‘tapped out’ on turn 4 to resolve an As Foretold.
I haven’t tested it yet, but the idea is continuing to linger in my mind for longer than I thought it would. Because of that reason, I thought it might warrant some discussion here, to convince myself I’m either crazy or onto something.
I've played this deck recently in a few FNMs and I like what it does. I've only played Uw so far, because I see nothing useful from black, am not interested in suspending Living End and feel like you really need early interaction in quite a few matchups, but without having their creature end up in the graveyard, thus: Path to Exile. White also gives you Stony Silence which is pretty good against bad matchups (affinity, tron) and a way to cast Leyline of Sanctity. This deck, with its need to find a 4-off in As Foretold seems pretty bad against discard so I feel leyline is quite useful. It also helps against another bad matchup, Burn. It used to be terrible to draw more leylines beyond your opening hand, but with Jace, the Mind Sculptor and many shuffle effects it's not a big deal anymore.
Speaking of Jace, this deck really got a big boost from this card, imho. I think those who are saying that this deck doesn't really want Jace or maybe only 1-2 are nuts and have never played with it. Not only does Jace find As Foretold, it gets annoying creatures of the battlefield to buy time, controls their draws and is a wincon that doesn't use the graveyard or the combat phase. With our ability to clear the board, Jace slices and dices and gives you a whole new angle of attack that also works very well with the rest of the deck. I own 3 Jaces and play 3, but I wouldn't be surprised if 4 is actually correct. Fortunately the deck plays a lot of draw so finding one isn't really an issue.
Jace basically means we're not just looking for a 4-off in As Foretold, but now have up to 8 win cons to find which makes this deck much more consistent.
For the 3 Jaces, I cut the 4th Cryptic, 4th Street Wraith and put the 3rd Path in the SB. I felt that I can't have too many 4-drops, Street Wraith is poor anyway and with the added draw (and bounce) from Jace I could get away with 2 paths main. Last FNM I went 3-1 and Jace felt awesome, as expected. What didn't feel awesome was 20 land and 3 street wraiths. I mulled almost every 7 due to too few lands (or awkward lands like tolaria west, bojuka bog + field of ruin) and the deck seems too slow to really consider street wraith a free cycler. 3 was already better than 4, but the creature is so meh and the free cycling almost irrelevant that I rather play more Obstructionist, more land and perhaps another 1 mana cycler, like Architects of Will, even though I think the creature itself is even worse than Street Wraith.
This deck seemed pretty good against control so far (I also beat UW Jace control in the last FNM) so if control gets played more, that should be good. My main concern is that there may simply be other 'control' decks that are better Jace shells, making LAF just a worse Jace deck.
my take on the list I added for jaddi offshoot its made a major improvement for dealing with the turn 1 decks. such as goblin guide who get in under the counterspells. also I got bring to light for back up living end comboing. Often Offshoot dies in blocks so it comes back with everything else that living ended, continuing my life gain per land drop.
I'm testing 2x JMS instead 2x Spell Pierce. JMS is very good against other control decks, but not good against aggro decks. Sometimes I prefer to put 2x Detetion Sphire that works against every kind of deck. I'm really confused about these 2 slots.
In SB, I don't know if I'd use Settle the Wreckage or Supreme Veredict. Both are good, but I think Settle is better to our strategy (exile creature and instant speed), but Veredict is very good against Denial and other counterspells.
We are onto something. I have been playing simian/chalice for 2 fnms now and i have won both fridays. Try it out.
What's the meta like?
Chalice and acceleration of this type isn't something I'd ever want to put in a control deck is the thing. It just doesn't mesh with the main game plan is all.
What's also another factor is that chalice is a powerful enough card that it can mislead people into suboptimal deck building choices. It's good but could we be doing something better or more suited to the synergy of the deck?
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
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Your post didn't mention Eldrazi so I asumed you menat the "traditional" Tron deck.
I don't think that Spreading Seas is particulary good against Eldrazi Tron either.
I feel like the reasons should be numerous and obvious but I'll pick on the most important one;
You don't want to only reliably be able to cast your important sweeper *after* resolving a four mana planeswalker. Yes we have living end but bleugh. Not what we want.
I also think we want to consider 1 or 2x Jace as a lock for the deck. As a control/combo deck, we can use every mode from Jace effectively, and he's a great way to pull ahead or offer a different angle of attack in our trickier matchup.
They both help us advance our gameplan (Azcanta is better here being able to come down earlier), and if left unchecked they can run away with the game (Jace being better here since it does everything by himself rather than helping get other answers)
Owning no Jaces currently, I certainly will not buy in the middle of this hype, as I'm confident after the reprint the value will return to it's 70ish range (hopefully even a bit lower). I don't think many decks will play more than 2 of, and this reprint is a massive one, for the 25th anniversary and one available even at stores like Walmart and Target, with cards from every set of Magic History.
Edit: For 2x Jace, I would trim 1 Cryptic and 1 creature likely. Playing Jace and trimming Cryptics would certainly make a splash more appealing, since playing some fetches would have an additional upside with the brainstorming.
Looking at the lists in this thread, I see many people are using White instead. I'm actually considering going up to 4-colors and do some weird hybrid with Violent Outburst (like a slot machine, would usually pull either Ancestral Vision or Living End but might hit a non-0 card).
From Black, I loved having access to discard, especially Collective Brutality. For some brainfart reason I wasn't playing Fatal Push.
I can see that having Path or Condemn would be great vs some decks, but honestly I just want a fast Living End vs many of those - that's why I'm considering Violent Outburst.
Anybody on an UB list or something different? I'm also needing a sideboard vs Burn and Storm.
It was chalice-based and I used Simian Spirit Guides to power out T1 chalices and T2 As Foretolds. Knowledge of SSG made opponents play around 1 untapped mana, to their detriment. It is a tight list but it has won me FNM so that gives me comfidence in the build.
Nimble Obstructionist gives me surprise interactions all the time. Against Ad Naus, I countered gemstone mine’s ETB trigger of adding mine counters (didnt realize it was an ETB trigger until last night) to destroy his land and set him back a couple of precious turns.
Ok damn i did not know that was errata’d.
Quick rundown of the last Friday's FNM. I played the list below and went 4-0 (Won the tournament) with 12 People playing.
Mono B vampires
2-0
Cycled a lot, found LE and as foretold, had 3 street wraiths + curator come back both games with living end, wiping his board. Bashing for 13 "unblockable" damage (flying + swampwalk). Quick 2 games.
Affinity
2-1
Lost game 1 after getting bashed to 4 and a galvanic blast finished me off.
Sideboarded game 1 collective brutality and engineered explosives did all the work. I did get galvanic blasted for 8 in a single turn though. Played around ravager and eventually got control back and basically won by hardcasting curator and beating him down.
Game 2 opponent sided in 2 grafdigger's cages and drew both in his opening hand without much additional interaction. Cycled 1 curator, 1 riverwinder and 2 street wraiths, got as foretold and living ended. Sad opponent.
Merfolk
2-0
Drew the nuts, opponent played bad, wiped his board and beat him down.
Game 2
Opponent has a greedy keep, 1-lander + vial. I get 27 power in the yard and living end. Game over.
Mono G devotion
2-0
Very fun games, lot's of interaction.
Have to LE without anything in my yard to slow the game down. Hardcast curator, counter his big stuff. 4 in the air every turn slowly kills him.
Game 2 Tolaria for EE wipes his 1 drops, field of ruins keep his nykthos in check. Eventually cast all 4 ancestrals, hardcast curators and nimbles. win by attacking him in the air.
Collective Brutality, EE and Nimble Obstructionist are the real MVP's in the sideboard.
1 Ghost Quarter
2 river of tears
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
7 Island
1 Swamp
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
1 Sunken Ruins
3 Tolaria West
2 Architects of Will
4 Curator of Mysteries
4 Street Wraith
4 Striped Riverwinder
1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
4 Ancestral Vision
3 Cryptic Command
4 Living End
4 Remand
2 Mana Leak
1 Disallow
1 Spell Pierce
4 As Foretold
1 Search for Azcanta
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Collective Brutality
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Nimble Obstructionist
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Faerie Maccabre
Currently working on making the best Time Warp deck in here: Taking Turns
Having to break it to your opponent that their Grafdigger's cage isn't going to do what they want it to do makes for some seriously weird simultaneous feelgood/feelbad moments.
4 Curator of Mysteries
4 Street Wraith
4 Striped Riverwinder
2 Nimble Obstructionist
Core
4 As Foretold
4 Living End
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Remand
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Cryptic Command
2 Supreme Will
Lands
15 Island
4 Tolaria West
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Search for Azcanta
2 Spell Pierce
1 Echoing Truth
Took my list to the Card Kingdom 1K this past weekend. There were 7 rounds of Swiss, and I started the day with a 5-0 record, good for double ID into Top 8 as the 2 seed. I proceeded to then mulligan to 4 on the play against Abzan (I later found out that his opener that game was 3 lands, Inquisition, Thoughtseize, LotV. I lost and was sad, but at least I placed well.
I do love playing Chalices mainboard. It feels good against the fast decks (exception being Affinity, but even then Chalice on 1 locks out Galvanic Blast. We can win a lot of games off the strength of the deck’s win condition against the slower decks.
Moving forward, I’ll be cutting Obstructionist and Supreme Will completely and a single Cryptic to make room for 2 Jaces, and 3 Simian Spirit Guides. It makes me sad, since I have a soft spot for all those cards, but I think Jace is simply too strong not to play while Simian Spirit Guide can power out completely busted turns (Foretold on 2, Chalice for 1 on 1, and Jace on 3 seem really good). I also have all my games for the past month recorded in my notes along with deck archetype, and will compile them all into an easy to read data report at some point. More to come.
Modern: U Living End
Standard: UW Approach of the Second Sun
I was thinking about that and....i actually don't think it will. If Jace proves to be as good as I think he is, there is virtually no reason why it would ever go back to 70$.
The perfect example of this is...Goyf. The card dropped down to around 70$ (and it's back up now!) after what? 4 printings? Jace has only been reprinted once (i don't count the horrible FTV versions) and it's next reprint is in a masters set...with packs costing between 10-15$. Imagine if the packs are like EMA...you think it'll matter that it'll be at Walmart? No one is going to crack them.
History will have you show that it going back down to 70$ is pure fantasy. If you wanna play Jace, you need to get on this train now and take your losses. Hell, i would be worried that not only does it not go back down, that it goes up and stays up!
True, but being one living end side of things, it's mostly feelgood though!
Anyways, the guy said: rather have it happened here than at a large event. Never going to forget that again.
Congratulations!
We are aligned on the simians. I have played the chalice version with simians and it is very strong because of the explosive plays and because our curve is awkward, and all the cantrips and card draw offset the initial card disadvantage. Chalice is also great game vs burn, and as such agree that white leylines become unneeded too. With the simians I went down to 19 lands and it has been ok.
I certainly wouldn't buy now, since once M25 is published, the price will go down for sure (only reason for it not to would be some absolutely busted deck crushing every tournament, and then I wouldn't buy for fear of a re-ban). And this set is the 25th anniversary, there's no way they'll get it wrong. People will be opening this all over (me and several friends who never buy boxes will buy a box of this, as an annecdotal example). I think next week we start getting spoilers, so we'll have a better idea then I guess.
My opinion at this point is that when the hype passes and the dust settles, he will have his place in some decks and be another powerful card, like Lili of the Veil at most let's say.
I could be wrong and he truly is busted, but from what I've seen this week, I'm kind of optimistic that Modern will handle it well and it will be just another powerful card in the format.
Really, I have seen more impressive performances from that obnoxious elf than from Jace so far (and to be clear, I was totally on the "he is broken and shouldn't be unbanned" boat before the announcement). Maybe it's just a matter of time until somebody finds him the proper shell and breaks the format, I will for sure wait until this reprint is through before buying it.
I've got a playset of spirit guides sleeved up ready to go, but realistically what does this card offer that some powerful counterspells or interaction don't?
Fair question I feel. Would love to have that discussion.
I think that one of the reasons why E-Tron doesn’t play it is because it has no need for it. The deck is already playing Tron lands with Temples to accelerate their mana, and their best 1 mana play is map anyways. I’ve always thought of E-Tron as a deck that can often beat you without Chalices, it just happens to play them and sometimes score free wins off of them. I think that our deck is in the same vein, but we have more high impact plays than E-Tron does at a more consistent rate.
What I mean by this is that yes, E-Tron will sometimes Karn you on 3, but by and large, they’re playing TKS on 3. Compare this to our deck that’s built around our namesake card in As Foretold - resolving it earlier in the game gives it longer to have an impact, and we can offset the card disadvantage with the draw from our DIY Ancestral Recalls. If I had the choice between interaction and As Foretold on turn 2, I think I would take the latter every time, even against aggressive strategies, because of how strong our deck is when we have one in play.
That’s not even the entire argument for the SSGs though - that’s the beauty of it. Sometimes you DO need the interaction, or maybe the game will just be won if you resolve a Chalice on 1. Sometimes you want to resolve a vital spell before your opponent hits you with Thoughtseize or TKS. For those matchups, you get to SSG into Chalice on turn 1, and brick your opponent out of the game for a while. That kind of upside is huge, and the flexibility of the card to buy us time - not by delaying our opponent, but accelerating our game plan - is the biggest argument for it IMO. Especially with Jace coming into the format - we can SSG into Jace on 3, and brick a lot of the Abrupt Decays of the world while at the same time resolve a must-answer threat against midrange or control decks.
We don’t even have to play 4 - our deck is already fine without the acceleration, you can just put SSG into your flex spots. I don’t know if I would cut lands, because lands are still good for our deck, but there’s certainly some awkward cards that I think could be cut for it.
I suppose the argument for SSG is tied in huge part to the inclusion of Chalice in our deck - it’s not nearly as good when you’re pitching a SSG for a non-permanent that doesn’t continue to influence the game, and Chalice is about the most backbreaking 2-drop our deck can reasonably play. They aren’t vital to our game plan - they just help us put out our haymakers faster, and when we’re playing a color not at all known for accelerating the pace of the game, the surprise factor ‘gets’ people; your blue opponents can’t tap out as frequently because they have to respect that you might just have it, and your nonblue opponent have to respect even a single Island when they try to resolve their key spell (ie. Jace) only for it to be hit by SSG-Remand after you ‘tapped out’ on turn 4 to resolve an As Foretold.
I haven’t tested it yet, but the idea is continuing to linger in my mind for longer than I thought it would. Because of that reason, I thought it might warrant some discussion here, to convince myself I’m either crazy or onto something.
Modern: U Living End
Standard: UW Approach of the Second Sun
Speaking of Jace, this deck really got a big boost from this card, imho. I think those who are saying that this deck doesn't really want Jace or maybe only 1-2 are nuts and have never played with it. Not only does Jace find As Foretold, it gets annoying creatures of the battlefield to buy time, controls their draws and is a wincon that doesn't use the graveyard or the combat phase. With our ability to clear the board, Jace slices and dices and gives you a whole new angle of attack that also works very well with the rest of the deck. I own 3 Jaces and play 3, but I wouldn't be surprised if 4 is actually correct. Fortunately the deck plays a lot of draw so finding one isn't really an issue.
Jace basically means we're not just looking for a 4-off in As Foretold, but now have up to 8 win cons to find which makes this deck much more consistent.
My current list is this:
4 Flooded Strand
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Seachrome Coast
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Tolaria West
3 Field of Ruin
6 Island
1 Plains
Creatures
1 Nimble Obstructionist
4 Curator of Mysteries
3 Street Wraith
4 Striped Riverwinder
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Living End
4 Serum Visions
2 Path to Exile
4 Remand
4 As Foretold
3 Cryptic Command
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Negate
2 Dispel
2 Stony Silence
2 Bottle Gnomes
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Path to Exile
For the 3 Jaces, I cut the 4th Cryptic, 4th Street Wraith and put the 3rd Path in the SB. I felt that I can't have too many 4-drops, Street Wraith is poor anyway and with the added draw (and bounce) from Jace I could get away with 2 paths main. Last FNM I went 3-1 and Jace felt awesome, as expected. What didn't feel awesome was 20 land and 3 street wraiths. I mulled almost every 7 due to too few lands (or awkward lands like tolaria west, bojuka bog + field of ruin) and the deck seems too slow to really consider street wraith a free cycler. 3 was already better than 4, but the creature is so meh and the free cycling almost irrelevant that I rather play more Obstructionist, more land and perhaps another 1 mana cycler, like Architects of Will, even though I think the creature itself is even worse than Street Wraith.
This deck seemed pretty good against control so far (I also beat UW Jace control in the last FNM) so if control gets played more, that should be good. My main concern is that there may simply be other 'control' decks that are better Jace shells, making LAF just a worse Jace deck.
2 Street Wraith
2 Nimble Obstructionist
4 Curator of Mysteries
4 Striped Riverwinder
Enchantment
4 As Foretold
Land
3 Tolaria West
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Flooded Strand
4 Field of Ruin
1 Plains
3 Island
2 Spell Snare
4 Remand
1 Supreme Will
3 Cryptic Command
2 Mana Leak
4 Path to Exile
Sorcery
4 Ancestral Vision
3 Living End
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Detention Sphere
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Stony Silence
1 Pithing Needle
1 Settle the Wreckage
1 Spell Pierce
1 Condemn
1 Disenchant
1 Negate
I'm testing 2x JMS instead 2x Spell Pierce. JMS is very good against other control decks, but not good against aggro decks. Sometimes I prefer to put 2x Detetion Sphire that works against every kind of deck. I'm really confused about these 2 slots.
In SB, I don't know if I'd use Settle the Wreckage or Supreme Veredict. Both are good, but I think Settle is better to our strategy (exile creature and instant speed), but Veredict is very good against Denial and other counterspells.
UBlue EndU
BAd NauseamB
What's the meta like?
Chalice and acceleration of this type isn't something I'd ever want to put in a control deck is the thing. It just doesn't mesh with the main game plan is all.
What's also another factor is that chalice is a powerful enough card that it can mislead people into suboptimal deck building choices. It's good but could we be doing something better or more suited to the synergy of the deck?