Sultai Charm is indeed a little expensive, but it's also very versatile and never dead while it complements the strategy. Offcourse, one could also run a 2nd copy of Maelstrom Pulse like the majority of GBx decks nowdays.
Edit: Cast Down is a card. Doesn't hit Tasigur but that's about it I feel.
Yeah, Tasigur is about the only creature Cast Down doesn’t hit that we care about, since we have removal for just about everything else. I’ll probably replace my Dismember with it.
I’m also curious to try building a version of the deck that looks like Abzan Traverse, where the diversity of our tutor package is smaller, but we’re running more Liliana of the Veil. Without them, it feels like our power level drops significantly. I still need to buy back into them at some point, but I’ll try and put together list anyway this weekend and maybe proxy it for testing.
Yeah, Tasigur is about the only creature Cast Down doesn’t hit that we care about, since we have removal for just about everything else. I’ll probably replace my Dismember with it.
Tried it, Great alternative.
I’m also curious to try building a version of the deck that looks like Abzan Traverse, where the diversity of our tutor package is smaller, but we’re running more Liliana of the Veil. Without them, it feels like our power level drops significantly. I still need to buy back into them at some point, but I’ll try and put together list anyway this weekend and maybe proxy it for testing.
Well, I have been theorycrafting on Abzan Traverse. You gain one or two sideboard traverse targets but lose on maindeck cards. I really don't see the deck be any better than regular Abzan Midrange where the plusses are the same but sideboard cards are stronger.
Last week I've been playng some more serious matches with Sultai. Amongst them where BR Hollow One, Jund and Mardu Pyromancer. The deck feels strong and has game vs most. Like said before, some tech v.s. go wide strategies might be usefull.
Well, I have been theorycrafting on Abzan Traverse. You gain one or two sideboard traverse targets but lose on maindeck cards. I really don't see the deck be any better than regular Abzan Midrange where the plusses are the same but sideboard cards are stronger.
Last week I've been playng some more serious matches with Sultai. Amongst them where BR Hollow One, Jund and Mardu Pyromancer. The deck feels strong and has game vs most. Like said before, some tech v.s. go wide strategies might be usefull.
Yeah, when I was building the Abzan-esque list, I was finding reasons to be in blue in the mainboard, and it didn't feel like the splash was worth it.
I think the best tech we have vs go-wide strategies in general is probably Damnation or Flaying Tendrils, or a split of the two depending on what you're expecting. I'm on Damnation personally, because I'd rather have an answer that kills everything all the time, vs a spell that often isn't enough on turn 3.
Another card you could test is Bontu's Last Reckoning. I asked the player who was on Gideon Tribal at GP Phoenix what he thought of it all day, because he ran a single copy mainboard, and he said:
It was fine. The fact that it was 3 mana was a relevant upside about as often as the lands untapping was a relevant downside.
I've tried to find creatures with -X/-X effects tagged on them. Unfortunately, the real cards are quite overcosted. Demon of Dark Schemes came up, it takes care of tokens and is a wincon on it's own.
Another tutorable option is Festercreep which can take care of small tokens immediately.
And finally there is the tried and true Tooth Collector, but that's slow.
I don't think any one of them will really work in the deck unfortunately.
Another thing I have been thinking about, since most, if not all Hate against our deck tries to exile our yard and Path To Exile is becomming more and more important as a removalspell in a more recursive meta, is: Torrent Elemental.
This card looks sweet as a recursive finisher after sideboards, punches trough swarms of flying chump blockers and doesn't get hit by Fatal Push and Lightning Bolt.
Kinda like the way the The Scarab God is hard to remove but the other way around
Your Torrent Elemental idea is interesting, because in my build, I find myself in board stalls often. And that card seems like the ultimate stall breaker. I dig it.
I finally picked up my Liliana of the Veils and Tarmogoyfs again, so here's the list I'll be tuning from this point forward. Much of it was inspired by Reddit user SaintDoom and how he builds his Abzan Traverse list, and some thoughts he had on the BUG subreddit.
I think ideally the list would max out on Goyfs and Flayers, especially Goyf with the ability to make him truly massive for a fast clock on offense and outclass everything on defense.
I think 3-4 Liliana of the Veil is also something we’re interested in. When I was playing planeswalker light versions of the deck, the thing I missed the most was LotV. As a BGx deck, our bread and butter is disrupting our opponent and attacking their hand. And with Traverse in the build, our top decks should be much more live than our opponent’s draws.
Your list looks interesting. It's very different to say the least.
I'm with you on the Liliana plan, she is so strong. And I dig the sideboard.
Do you care to elaborate on some of the other choices? I.e. Landcount, Courser of kruphix and no Ewitt or Search for Azcanta,
Yeah, the thing about Liliana of the Veil is she just straight up takes over the game. When I wasn't running her, I found it easy to stabilize, but hard to keep control and then pull ahead and close. With Liliana, we create that sub-game that revolves around her and can be incredibly difficult to answer, while opening the door for our own threats to close.
Regarding land count, I started out at 21 with the second forest, but trimmed to 20 on the advice of SaintDoom. He's the go-to guy for Abzan Traverse, so if he thinks we can get away with 20, I'm definitely willing to test it. I may go down to only one 4-drop in the main though. Time and testing will tell.
I like the combination of Courser of Kruphix + Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet as a hedge against small, fast aggro. For my playstyle, the extra information from Courser is worth it alone. Combine that with filtering lands off the top of our deck, incremental lifegain, and small but interesting interactions like getting the most value out of cracking Bauble at the optimal time and scrying with fetchlands, all puts Courser over the top for me. I wouldn't fault anyone for cutting Courser though for the 4th Goyf or Flayer - I just don't own the full sets, and this opens up extra slots for more versatility, which is definitely something we're interested in.
Bitterblossom is the most exciting addition to the list personally. Like Eternal Witness and Search it is slow, but I think it's does more work overall. I'm more than happy to trade one life each turn to chump block against a lot of the decks in the meta, especially if it allows us to get aggressive with Goyf and Flayer while we leave back a defense. With Courser, Kalitas, and Scavenging Ooze, we have ways to offset the life loss too. It also has the added benefit of making our Goyfs massive if we discard it with Liliana, Jace or from Burning Inquiry, which is pretty important currently. If we don't have an answer in hand to Hollow Ones, Gurmag Anglers or Reality Smashers, just go bigger. Plus, it gives us a hedge against opposing Liliana of the Veil sacrifice.
Hostage Taker is a SaintDoom idea. I like his theory behind the card that it should be good against aggro and Affinity right now. If I decide I don't like this slot, I'd just add a second Scavenging Ooze, because it has a lot of utility right now.
And lastly, Jace, Vryn's Prodigy is still a fun-of because I think it works so well next to Liliana of the Veil. It might be better off as a second Snapcaster, especially when we're heavy on counterspells out of the board, but I just can't get away from the card.
Edit: Just got done testing against Eldrazi Tron and Hollow One and went 2-0, 2-1 respectively. Granted, it's only 5 games, BUT the deck feels way better suited to navigate those matchups now with massive Tarmogoyfs to lock things down. Also, Cast Down is
Small update: I've added a second Cast Down to my list, removing the second Abrupt Decay. As flexible as Decay is, there's too many large creatures floating around for me to justify 6 removal spells that don't hit Tasigur, Gurmag Angler, Reality Smasher and Hollow One. While Cast Down misses Tasigur, it's really only a singleton in Hollow One and it hits the rest of their deck. Another option I've considered but haven't tested yet, is going down to 3 Fatal Push instead, which may also be a viable option in a certain meta. Right now, I value the turn 1 removal more than Decay though.
I've also gone back up to 2 copies of Jace, Vryn's Prodigy and Scavenging Ooze, while cutting Hostage Taker and Courser of Kruphix. Courser is still one of my favorite cards, but Scavenging Ooze's ability to grow big quickly and tear apart graveyards is too important right now. And JVP is still an all-star in a deck that's land light and our mana efficiency really matters. A single copy of Snapcaster Mage is still great to Traverse for when needed though.
Yes! Cast Down has been overperforming for me too and i'm on two copies.
I'm still figuring out the correct numbers of traverse targets vs spells to play, I always feel the deck is to crowded.
I wish we had access to something really impactfull to tutor for which doesn't cost 5+ Mana.
Traverse is a sorcery. What exactly are you going to do with it on turn 2? Why are you rushing to enable it for colors that are generally restrictive to answers in creature form.
If you want to focus on anything for sultai it's 4 snapcaster mage's where stuff like grisly salvage, thought scour, azcanta become much much better. Where you're using your graveyard as a resource rather than for delirium.
Slamming goyf in with delirium is a HUGE mistake. I had an assault loam deck before. It didn't take me long to swap goyf for hollow one? Why? It's more resilient and is a threat that IS NOT dependant on the yard. It's an attack from a different angle rather than just scooping to yard hate. That hate comes in many forms and is in every sideboard.
Assassin's Trophy was an absolute gift from God for BGx. Sure you have fulminator in your sb for Tron. But Trophy catches all with so many 3 color decks running around and it's maindecked.
Have you played against someone running decay and trophy as an 8-of? Spoiler: The games go super long.
Additionally, Vraska GQ is a strong card. A 4 Mana 6 loyalty walker with decay as it's minus is no joke and is an excellent walker in a control shell.
Your card of choice to abuse yard is snap. You start adding in goyf's and flayers and then graveyard hate comes along... In colorless form in every sideboard... And you fold. You'd be better off running shadow, Bob, and snap.
That way, yard hate merely makes a piece of your deck ineffective rather than completely shutting it down.
Edit: Cast Down is a card. Doesn't hit Tasigur but that's about it I feel.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
I’m also curious to try building a version of the deck that looks like Abzan Traverse, where the diversity of our tutor package is smaller, but we’re running more Liliana of the Veil. Without them, it feels like our power level drops significantly. I still need to buy back into them at some point, but I’ll try and put together list anyway this weekend and maybe proxy it for testing.
Tried it, Great alternative.
Well, I have been theorycrafting on Abzan Traverse. You gain one or two sideboard traverse targets but lose on maindeck cards. I really don't see the deck be any better than regular Abzan Midrange where the plusses are the same but sideboard cards are stronger.
Last week I've been playng some more serious matches with Sultai. Amongst them where BR Hollow One, Jund and Mardu Pyromancer. The deck feels strong and has game vs most. Like said before, some tech v.s. go wide strategies might be usefull.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
I think the best tech we have vs go-wide strategies in general is probably Damnation or Flaying Tendrils, or a split of the two depending on what you're expecting. I'm on Damnation personally, because I'd rather have an answer that kills everything all the time, vs a spell that often isn't enough on turn 3.
Another card you could test is Bontu's Last Reckoning. I asked the player who was on Gideon Tribal at GP Phoenix what he thought of it all day, because he ran a single copy mainboard, and he said:
Demon of Dark Schemes came up, it takes care of tokens and is a wincon on it's own.
Another tutorable option is Festercreep which can take care of small tokens immediately.
And finally there is the tried and true Tooth Collector, but that's slow.
I don't think any one of them will really work in the deck unfortunately.
Another thing I have been thinking about, since most, if not all Hate against our deck tries to exile our yard and Path To Exile is becomming more and more important as a removalspell in a more recursive meta, is: Torrent Elemental.
This card looks sweet as a recursive finisher after sideboards, punches trough swarms of flying chump blockers and doesn't get hit by Fatal Push and Lightning Bolt.
Kinda like the way the The Scarab God is hard to remove but the other way around
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
2x Blooming Marsh
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Breeding Pool
1x Watery Grave
1x Forest
2x Swamp
1x Island
3x Misty Rainforest
1x Verdant Catacombs
4x Polluted Delta
1x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Treetop Village
Creatures (13)
3x Grim Flayer
3x Tarmogoyf
2x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1x Snapcaster Mage
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1x Shriekmaw
4x Fatal Push
1x Abrupt Decay
2x Cast Down
Sorceries (12)
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Thoughtseize
4x Traverse the Ulvenwald
2x Maelstrom Pulse
Planeswalkers (4)
3x Liliana of the Veil
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
Artifacts (4)
4x Mishra's Bauble
2x Negate
2x Collective Brutality
2x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Bitterblossom
1x Damnation
1x Flaying Tendrils
1x Sultai Charm
1x Big Game Hunter
1x Fulminator Mage
1x Glen Elendra Archmage
1x Hostage Taker
1x Reclamation Sage
I think 3-4 Liliana of the Veil is also something we’re interested in. When I was playing planeswalker light versions of the deck, the thing I missed the most was LotV. As a BGx deck, our bread and butter is disrupting our opponent and attacking their hand. And with Traverse in the build, our top decks should be much more live than our opponent’s draws.
I'm with you on the Liliana plan, she is so strong. And I dig the sideboard.
Do you care to elaborate on some of the other choices? I.e. Landcount, Courser of kruphix and no Ewitt or Search for Azcanta,
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
Regarding land count, I started out at 21 with the second forest, but trimmed to 20 on the advice of SaintDoom. He's the go-to guy for Abzan Traverse, so if he thinks we can get away with 20, I'm definitely willing to test it. I may go down to only one 4-drop in the main though. Time and testing will tell.
I like the combination of Courser of Kruphix + Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet as a hedge against small, fast aggro. For my playstyle, the extra information from Courser is worth it alone. Combine that with filtering lands off the top of our deck, incremental lifegain, and small but interesting interactions like getting the most value out of cracking Bauble at the optimal time and scrying with fetchlands, all puts Courser over the top for me. I wouldn't fault anyone for cutting Courser though for the 4th Goyf or Flayer - I just don't own the full sets, and this opens up extra slots for more versatility, which is definitely something we're interested in.
No Eternal Witness, Tireless Tracker and Search for Azcanta is a metagame call right now. There may be a time when we want them main, but both cards just seem too slow currently.
Bitterblossom is the most exciting addition to the list personally. Like Eternal Witness and Search it is slow, but I think it's does more work overall. I'm more than happy to trade one life each turn to chump block against a lot of the decks in the meta, especially if it allows us to get aggressive with Goyf and Flayer while we leave back a defense. With Courser, Kalitas, and Scavenging Ooze, we have ways to offset the life loss too. It also has the added benefit of making our Goyfs massive if we discard it with Liliana, Jace or from Burning Inquiry, which is pretty important currently. If we don't have an answer in hand to Hollow Ones, Gurmag Anglers or Reality Smashers, just go bigger. Plus, it gives us a hedge against opposing Liliana of the Veil sacrifice.
Hostage Taker is a SaintDoom idea. I like his theory behind the card that it should be good against aggro and Affinity right now. If I decide I don't like this slot, I'd just add a second Scavenging Ooze, because it has a lot of utility right now.
And lastly, Jace, Vryn's Prodigy is still a fun-of because I think it works so well next to Liliana of the Veil. It might be better off as a second Snapcaster, especially when we're heavy on counterspells out of the board, but I just can't get away from the card.
Edit: Just got done testing against Eldrazi Tron and Hollow One and went 2-0, 2-1 respectively. Granted, it's only 5 games, BUT the deck feels way better suited to navigate those matchups now with massive Tarmogoyfs to lock things down. Also, Cast Down is
I've also gone back up to 2 copies of Jace, Vryn's Prodigy and Scavenging Ooze, while cutting Hostage Taker and Courser of Kruphix. Courser is still one of my favorite cards, but Scavenging Ooze's ability to grow big quickly and tear apart graveyards is too important right now. And JVP is still an all-star in a deck that's land light and our mana efficiency really matters. A single copy of Snapcaster Mage is still great to Traverse for when needed though.
I'm still figuring out the correct numbers of traverse targets vs spells to play, I always feel the deck is to crowded.
I wish we had access to something really impactfull to tutor for which doesn't cost 5+ Mana.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
If you want to focus on anything for sultai it's 4 snapcaster mage's where stuff like grisly salvage, thought scour, azcanta become much much better. Where you're using your graveyard as a resource rather than for delirium.
Slamming goyf in with delirium is a HUGE mistake. I had an assault loam deck before. It didn't take me long to swap goyf for hollow one? Why? It's more resilient and is a threat that IS NOT dependant on the yard. It's an attack from a different angle rather than just scooping to yard hate. That hate comes in many forms and is in every sideboard.
Assassin's Trophy was an absolute gift from God for BGx. Sure you have fulminator in your sb for Tron. But Trophy catches all with so many 3 color decks running around and it's maindecked.
Have you played against someone running decay and trophy as an 8-of? Spoiler: The games go super long.
Additionally, Vraska GQ is a strong card. A 4 Mana 6 loyalty walker with decay as it's minus is no joke and is an excellent walker in a control shell.
Your card of choice to abuse yard is snap. You start adding in goyf's and flayers and then graveyard hate comes along... In colorless form in every sideboard... And you fold. You'd be better off running shadow, Bob, and snap.
That way, yard hate merely makes a piece of your deck ineffective rather than completely shutting it down.