I like the idea of BUG Death's Shadow. Adding UG in this variant instead of UR in Grixis or even GR in the traditional Jund build. U is super strong for this deck with counter magic along with draw power and adding G for Traverse the Ulvenwald, Grim Flayer and Tarmogoyf.
I've been tuning the list on MODO and have some thoughts to share. Overall the deck is incredibly skill-testing, and I feel like I've cost myself most of the games I've lost through misplays as opposed to the deck not being powerful enough.
-4 Snapcaster Mage is correct, as Don D advocated. Having one in hand on turn 3 is about as good as it gets with this deck, especially because he makes all of your early 1 cmc discard ridiculously oppressive in the midgame and your Pushes great late game. Having Traverse the Ulvenwald and Snapcaster in the same deck opens a ton of possibilities in every game, and this is the best Snapcaster Mage deck I've ever picked up.
-I'm trying a 2/2 split of Stubborn Denial and Lili maindeck, which has been great so far. The online meta has a lot of combo and midrange control right now, and Stubborn Denial overperformed nearly every game I played with it in the main. Having only two blue sources makes Snapcaster Mage-Stubborn Denial a little tricky to pull off, and I might revisit the mana base if I think having Stubborn main is necessary longterm.
-The sideboard has some test cards, specifically Ethersworn Canonist (given the uptick in Gifts Storm online) and Ceremonious Rejection (fills the small hole left in the Stubborn Denial plan against Tron, plus comes in handy vs. Affinity and random artifact decks). Nature's Claim took Golgari Charm's place because I needed more artifact and enchantment hate, and Claim allows you to just get a basic forest against Blood Moon decks (instead of leaving up forest and swamp for Abrupt Decay). Given the amount of U/W midrange going around MODO, I'm tempted to throw a Heroic Intervention in the sideboard, which beats all of their removal. I'm definitely on the Instants/Sorceries sideboard plan over the Creatures/Lands plan, just because flashing back a sideboard card with Snapcaster Mage doubles your fun, but I'm hoping Canonist and Fulminator change my mind re: Traversing for silver bullets (this is a Sultai Traverse deck after all).
-This deck is awesome in the mirror against Death's Shadow Aggro. I went 2-1 against the standard list last night, with Snapcaster Mage and Stubborn Denial being the MVPs. This matchup really highlights the strengths of Sultai Shadow: combining Jund's ability to land multiple threats in rapid succession with Grixis's ability to grind with Snapcaster Mage is a potent mixture, and allows you to come out ahead of DSJ on the crucial turn.
* * *
The question now is what to do with the flex spots. I've split the difference, but I think running 4 Lilis or more counters/removal (3 Stubborn/1 Abrupt Decay) in those spots is just as correct. One way to think about this is in the context of the standard color wedge decks, which has been the pattern in a number of other Death's Shadow variants. The most successful outside of Jund is Grixis, which plays like a Grixis Delver deck with discard over counterspells; same with the Abzan lists that have been going around thanks to Reid Duke's Team Modern list, which are basically more aggressive versions of The Rock, complete with 4 maindeck Lilis.
Especially when building sideboards, we might want to look at the Sultai Traverse lists which have been the best Sultai lists in Modern recently. While they don't run Snapcaster Mage, they have a similar ability to Traverse early for answers, so a few of the cheaper silver bullets are probably worth considering.
Just a quick note, I think Manglehorn is better than Reclamation Sage as tech against Infinity. They really pushed the 3cmc slot in Amonkhet.
Regarding Bojuka Bog, I'm a little skeptical about its efficacy against Dredge (which should probably be the number one sideboard target for graveyard hate given its metagame share and abysmal game 1 matchup). By the time I can play Bog (presumably on my turn 2 or 3 given the fact that it has to be Traversed for then played as a land drop) they have a field full of dudes, so I really want to be able to clear out their yard either permanently (Leyline of the Void feels like it turns this match into a buy) or at instant speed (Nihil Spellbomb just sits there like a one-sided Tormod's Crypt waiting for them to stack a bunch of triggers) on their turn 2 at the latest. Surgical Extraction seems great in a Leyline-less plan, especially because Surgical turn one into Snapcaster-Surgical turn 2 is a real play.
Manglehorn is better against affinity but i would NEVER leave 1xReclamation Sage out of the side board. The card is a traversable answer not only against pesky artifacts but also against some rather annoying enchantments: Blood Moon, Rest in Peace, Leyline of Sanctity, ...
-The sideboard has some test cards, specifically Ethersworn Canonist (given the uptick in Gifts Storm online) and Ceremonious Rejection (fills the small hole left in the Stubborn Denial plan against Tron, plus comes in handy vs. Affinity and random artifact decks). Nature's Claim took Golgari Charm's place because I needed more artifact and enchantment hate, and Claim allows you to just get a basic forest against Blood Moon decks (instead of leaving up forest and swamp for Abrupt Decay). Given the amount of U/W midrange going around MODO, I'm tempted to throw a Heroic Intervention in the sideboard, which beats all of their removal. I'm definitely on the Instants/Sorceries sideboard plan over the Creatures/Lands plan, just because flashing back a sideboard card with Snapcaster Mage doubles your fun, but I'm hoping Canonist and Fulminator change my mind re: Traversing for silver bullets (this is a Sultai Traverse deck after all).
The counter spell plan against Tron sounds realy promising. Let me know if you have some results.
As enchantment hate I prefer Reclamation Sage over Nature's Claim because with thraverse we have 5 virtual copies of it while only using one SB slot. Together with the two Abrupt Decay this gives 7 enchantment removals post board. The "snapcastability" on the other hand is a plus for claim. So this spot is debatable.
You convinced me to put the Surgical Extraction in the SB. Leyline of the Void is the better grave hoser, but Surgical Extraction has applications in more match-ups. I still want to have at least one traversable graveyard hoser in my SB. Yixlid Jailer or Bojuka Bog? Permanent but removable GY hate or a one-shot GY hate?
Good point about Reclamation Sage, definitely going with a 1/1 split of him and Nature's Claim (one for Traverse, one for Snapcaster). Between Bojuka Bog and Yixlid Jailer, I like Jailer, and put him in my board as a single. If I need to shut down dredge, I need to shut down dredge, not turn it off for a turn. While Bog is good against other Traverse/Snapcaster decks, I think Stubborn Denial is good enough.
The counter spell plan against Tron sounds realy promising. Let me know if you have some results.
Stubborn Denial is great against G/W Tron. B/G Tron is a bigger problem, hence the Ceremonious Rejection and Maelstrom Pulse. Since they depend on Worldbreakers and Ulamogs, Rejection is much better. Surgical Extraction is also good in this matchup.
As enchantment hate I prefer Reclamation Sage over Nature's Claim because with thraverse we have 5 virtual copies of it while only using one SB slot. Together with the two Abrupt Decay this gives 7 enchantment removals post board. The "snapcastability" on the other hand is a plus for claim. So this spot is debatable.
I like Nature's Claim because it's a turn 1 answer to Leyline of Sanctity, which sees a decent amount of play online (especially games 2 and 3).
Intervention stops Sphere from targeting your creatures and Lilis, but doesn't deal with a resolved one. Stubborn Denial really shores up a lot of matchups and I think deserves a spot in the main deck. It's the deck's insurance policy against anything unfair match one, and there are very few decks against which it's a true blank.
Was playing some games with Stubborn Denial in the flex slots. The card played out great! BUT the absence of Thought Scour clearly reduced the delirium consistency. So I'm still unsure about the last four spots in the main deck.
Hey guys, thinking of playing this deck. I have the cards, but from your experience, does it require the 8 spots for Traverse the Ulvenwald and mishra's bauble? To run most effectively? Why not run 2 Inquisitions like Grixis?
Hey guys, thinking of playing this deck. I have the cards, but from your experience, does it require the 8 spots for Traverse the Ulvenwald and mishra's bauble? To run most effectively? Why not run 2 Inquisitions like Grixis?
Traverse and bauble are uncuttable. There are still 4 flex slots where you can test nissa. On the last page you can find a core list posted by skullscorcher with potential cards for the flex slots.
Hey guys, thinking of playing this deck. I have the cards, but from your experience, does it require the 8 spots for Traverse the Ulvenwald and mishra's bauble? To run most effectively? Why not run 2 Inquisitions like Grixis?
The deck plays more like Death's Shadow Jund than Grixis, so the full suite of IoK/Thoughtseize/Traverse/Bauble is necessary. I'm skeptical of New Nissa in this deck simply because it has so much anti-synergy (cheap creatures which you want to play at the exact right moment and low land count) but then again I've been stuck working through those four flex spots so pretty much anything is worth a shot. Report back!
Great thread guys. I've been testing this deck for a little while now, and will try it out at a competition today.
Im not a huge fan of the toolbox creatures for traverse in the board, tho i see how they can be good. Regarding land destruction vs eldrazi and tron; how do you feel about Spreading Seas as 2-3 in the board?
Pros:
- cost one mana less than fulmi
- can grow tarmo further with enchantment if destroyed
- redraw!
Cons:
- cant be recurred with newliana
- cant be found with traverse
- easier countered than fulmi(negate, stubborn, snare)
- opponent can get rid of their effect with pulse or decay, etc.
Thanks
What does your main deck look like?
Regarding Spreading Seas, I can see it working in the sideboard, but the reason we've mostly used creatures and instants/sorceries is because of the synergy with Traverse and Snapcaster, respectively. Against Tron and other big land strategies, counter magic alongside Snapcaster and Surgical Extraction is where you want to be; I even pack a Ceremonious Rejection in my sideboard. Going after lands is often less effective than just discarding or countering their threats while going for the most aggressive beat down you can, because you usually only need to buy a turn or two.
I can this list yesterday and denials and rejections were MVP. Taking ugins and what not. I went 4-2 and earned a 4th place which is nice for the deck's first run. Lost to UW control with Verdicts and leylines (hence the list has Golgari charms) and 4c human aggro. I am not sure on the sage, although it has its merits. I see your points on Spreading Seas. Creatures/instants/sorceries seem better here.
Reclamation Sage is nice because both it and Traverse just cost green mana, so if you're under a Blood Moon lock you only need your forest.
Nice job on the 4-2! UW control can be tough with this deck unless you get the Thoughtseize-Snapcaster heavy draw, and it only gets harder games 2 and 3. If it's heavy in your meta you might want a Heroic Intervention in the sideboard.
After more testing I'm definitely back on the Thought Scours in the flex slots. Consistent delirium for Traverse the Ulvenwald is too important. Also the synergies with goyf, snapi, bauble makes the Thought Scour kind of the grease for the deck to run smoothly. The Stubborn Denials were great in testing and earned a 4-of spot in the side board. My new side board for reference:
I do think having scours makes it necessary to run a breeding pool, so we dont mill out our lands, as someone mentioned earlier.
I don't think that breeding pools are necessary. The moment you play scour you already have U available and three G sources (1 forest 2 tomb) in your deck. Since the deck is Bgu the availability of B turn 1 is more important.
EDIT: Actually they might be needed to ensure UU for the flashback of denial with snapcaster
I want to make the full primer for this deck, I've been playing it for about a month on MODO and really enjoying it. I've been using a list similar to this one that won a small modern tournament in March.
Still planning to make a primer? Would be realy cool for the further development of the deck.
Still planning to make a primer? Would be realy cool for the further development of the deck.
I have a request in with the mods but never heard back, and I haven't had time to play much lately because I've been on vacation so I haven't done much with the deck. I'm definitely still down to write up a primer.
Overgrown Tomb (2)/Watery Grave (2): The deck’s duals are split between green and blue, with green having one more source thanks to the basic Forest. Depending on your hand, either is a fine fetch target turn one, and it’s usually correct to always fetch for these untapped to feed Death's Shadow.
Death's Shadow (4): It’s the card that defines the archetype. Because this deck has the same BG core of the popular Death’s Shadow Aggro deck, Mr. Shadow comes out fast, hard, and often in multiples thanks to Traverse the Ulvenwald. Your most aggressive draws will see large Death's Shadows by turn 2 or 3.
Tarmogoyf (4): Goyf is the other half of the Death’s Shadow Aggro threat package, and works just as well here thanks to the same synergy with Street Wraith and Mishra's Bauble. Comebined with early discard and removal, Goyf often hits the board as a 5/6, which conveniently steps in front of pretty much ever creature in the format quite nicely.
Street Wraith (4): The final creature from the Death’s Shadow Aggro build, Street Wraith is arguably the card in the deck with the most synergies: it lowers your life for Death's Shadow, gives you a functional Opt with Mishra's Bauble and a fetchland, feeds the graveyard for Goyf and Traverse the Ulvenwald, can provide unblockable damage in locked mirror matches, and, in combination with Bauble, allows you to run a 52 card deck.
Snapcaster Mage (4): Tiago is the main reason the deck splashes blue, and most builds will run a full playset. Tiago makes the deck incredibly consistent while giving it a very strong late game, and in games 2 and 3 he doubles the value of sideboard cards. He makes Thoughtseize-heavy draws even more oppressive and flashing back Fatal Push or Abrupt Decay leads to many blowout blocks.
Sorceries (12)
Thoughtseize (4): Another piece of the Death’s Shadow Aggro deck is the 8 discard spell suite, and the star is obviously Thoughtseize. Not much to say about how great this card is other than that Snapcaster Mage makes it even better.
Traverse the Ulvenwald (4): Another one mana superstar, Traverse the Ulvenwald is functionally Death's Shadow numbers 5-8 most games. Its ability to fetch out a basic land early on to smooth out a low mana draw and feed the graveyard is well documented, and this deck adds the ability to grab a Snapcaster Mage and flash back a game-winning removal spell.
Instants(6)
Fatal Push (4): The best removal spell in the format. In this deck, Fatal Push is often part of a game-winning Push-Snap-Push blowout block.
Abrupt Decay (2): Flexible removal that provides a maindeck answer to Blood Moon and Chalice of the Void on 1. Two are crucial, and some lists run three depending on the meta.
Artifacts (4)
Mishra's Bauble (4): Competitor for the card with the most synergies in the deck: it provides a scry with a fetchland (and an Opt with a Street Wraith), buffs Goyf and helps trigger Delirium for Traverse the Ulvenwald, gives you better than perfect information with your turn one Thoughtseize, and alongside Street Wraith allows you to run a 52 card deck.
Flex Spots (4)
Stubborn Denial (0-3): Another main reason to splash blue is countermagic, and Stubborn Denial is a functional one-mana Negate most of the time. Stubborn Denial shores up some of Death’s Shadow Aggro’s less-favorable matchups, namely Tron and combo. It also provides insurance during the crucial turn between playing a lethal Death's Shadow and swinging in with it.
Liliana, the Last Hope (0-2): The Eldritch Moon Liliana provides the deck with solid token removal and threat recursion, as well as an ultimate that gets activated with surprising frequency. Between her and Liliana of the Veil, you should run two planeswalkers to help Delirium and Goyf.
Liliana of the Veil (0-2): She’s the best planewalker in the format. Great for clearing out the last card in an opponent’s hand or taking out an evasive creature.
Maelstrom Pulse (0-1): Catchall removal is sometimes necessary in the maindeck, and it doesn’t get much better than Maelstrom Pulse, which has the incidental ability of mopping up pesky tokens with ease.
Thought Scour (0-4): The most controversial card in the deck. It has obvious synergies with a ton of cards, but is high risk given the low number of mana-producing lands, and finding an early opportunity to cast it while still applying pressure can be difficult. Over the deck’s short lifespan, many lists have run a full playset, while other have eschewed it entirely, and it has been largely squeezed out with the full adoption of the Death’s Shadow Aggro Traverse the Ulvenwald package alongside a full playset of Snapcaster Mage.
Yixlid Jailer (0-1): A silver bullet against Dredge.
Fulminator Mage (0-1): A silver bullet against any land deck.
Nihil Spellbomb (0-2): Another piece of graveyard hate that feeds your graveyard and cantrips. Most sideboards run some sort of 2-1 split of these and Surgical Extraction.
Ghost Quarter (0-1): An alternative piece of Traverse-friendly land hate.
Nice! Fully agreeing on the main deck and the flex slots. All potential cards there and discussed Some more side board options could be listed:
-Bojuka Bog asymetric gravehoser that doesn't take a spell slot and can be traversed.
-Big Game Hunter traversable removal for large creatures, a little too expensive, but if the meta has lots of eldrazi and death's shadow the card might be worth it.
-Tooth Collector traversable hate against decks going wide (elves, tokens, affinity), a little too expensive, but if the meta is heavy on such decks it's a great choice.
-Dispel is great if you have lots of grixis control in your meta.
-Maelstrom Pulse is not only useful for the main but also for the side.
Hi, I am playing Grixis Shadow myself until I thought yesterday, why aren't people actually playing Sultai, you don't lose that much, Lightning Bolt is hardly useful and you can find replacement for Terminate, while Kholagan's Command is great, Traverse and Tarmogoyfs seem even better.
I think you definitely want Thought Scour, I watched Gerry Thompson play Jund Shadow and one of his main problems was not being able to turn on Traverse. As has been mentioned, Thought Scour also works well with Snapcaster.
Stubborn Denial has been consistently solid for me in Grixis Delver and I think you'd want 4 across the 75, it's pretty insane with Snapcaster in some match-ups.
I also tried playing one Liliana of the Veil, but as Ari Lax mentioned in one of his videos, having her in a deck which tends to grind and get card advantage and wants to hold up Snapcaster her +1 doesn't really synergize well with the deck, most of the time I played her I was just using her as a sacrifice removal spell.
Not sure I like the full 8 discard cards, most often I sideboard out all my discard cards I think a lot of decks are quite fast and they can turn dead sorta quickly, but haven't played Sultai myself yet. I could see playing 6 and maybe 2 Serum Visions. Serum Visions has been quite nice for me, they smooth out draws and let you keep one-landers.
What do you think about Jace, Vryn? I am surprised nobody ever plays him, but he seems excellent in grindy match-ups and now that you have the ability to tutor him, could be worth running 3 Snapcaster and 1 Jace.
Grixis plays Anger of the Gods in the side and it can be pretty good against certain match-ups, also Kholagan's Command is excellent against Affinity, how can Sultai deal with wide boards and affinity?
The 8 discard spells are crucial. It's your main turn 1 play. I would even squeeze in 1-2 more if something close to TS or IoK is printed.
I tried Jace in the side board. IF he flips he's strong, but if my opponent has no removals, shadow or goyf win faster.
If you're scared of decks going wide, ther's Drown in Sorrow.
Serum Vision is often not that much worse than Thoughtseize turn one but retains a lot more viability later on. Why do you like discard so much in this deck? Almost all Grixis list play 4 Thoughtseize and 2 IoK and some even cut those 2 IoK.
I guess you are right about Jace, suppose there are some fringe cases, not sure those are worth it.
So the general idea so far is that we want to be Jund with Stubborn Denial and Snapcaster?
What's the reasoning for that though? I feel like we would be a worse Jund, but a better Grixis Shadow as we have more capability to grind games out with more threats.
The "mirrors" are usually about the last threat standing. The combination of snapcaster and traverse gives sultai the edge over jund and grixis.
Yeah, we don't lose much of the power or consistency of Jund by cutting red. Read back through the thread, the deck started as a Grixis build and evolved into what we're currently running through trial and error.
EDIT: The theory behind the deck is basically that the BG Death's Shadow shell is incredibly powerful and consistent, but that it lacks enough recursion to go long and the ability to interact on the stack, which is where a lot of the Jund losses come from. Adding Snapcaster and Stubborn Denial shores up those bad matchups without losing any of the explosiveness, and are just plain better than K Command for grinding. The Grixis creature package relies on Delve, which is a horrible nonbo with Traverse and Tarmogoyf, so we moved quickly away from that.
That makes sense. I would argue though that LoTV is also sort of a nombo with Snapcaster and Stubborn denial.
It's unclear which Liliana is better maindeck. I've had success with LotV by discarding my own cards to fuel Delirium, and it always feels good when my opponent works hard to kill her just to put that crucial fourth type in the graveyard.
LotV is the stronger walker in a vacuum, whereas LtlH has a little more overall synergies in the deck. It probably boils down to a meta choice. What about a split in the main board and test which one works out better against more match-ups? I only tested them a few games with them in the side board and can't draw any definitive conclusions about their "maindeckability".
Rejection costs one less (which is huge, especially for snapcaster flashback), but stroke seems to be the more versatile counterspell in a SB against more match-ups. Rejection is not that strong against affinity (board already cluttered early) and Eldrazi (Cavern of souls). Stroke on the other hand is great against ALL control/big mana strategies.
4 Mishra's Bauble
Creature (16)
4 Death's Shadow
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Street Wraith
4 Tarmogoyf
Instant (8)
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Fatal Push
2 Stubborn Denial
Planeswalker (2)
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
Land (18)
1 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Overgrown Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Watery Grave
1 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Collective Brutality
1 Dismember
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Fulminator Mage
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Nature's Claim
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Stubborn Denial
1 Surgical Extraction
-4 Snapcaster Mage is correct, as Don D advocated. Having one in hand on turn 3 is about as good as it gets with this deck, especially because he makes all of your early 1 cmc discard ridiculously oppressive in the midgame and your Pushes great late game. Having Traverse the Ulvenwald and Snapcaster in the same deck opens a ton of possibilities in every game, and this is the best Snapcaster Mage deck I've ever picked up.
-I'm trying a 2/2 split of Stubborn Denial and Lili maindeck, which has been great so far. The online meta has a lot of combo and midrange control right now, and Stubborn Denial overperformed nearly every game I played with it in the main. Having only two blue sources makes Snapcaster Mage-Stubborn Denial a little tricky to pull off, and I might revisit the mana base if I think having Stubborn main is necessary longterm.
-The sideboard has some test cards, specifically Ethersworn Canonist (given the uptick in Gifts Storm online) and Ceremonious Rejection (fills the small hole left in the Stubborn Denial plan against Tron, plus comes in handy vs. Affinity and random artifact decks). Nature's Claim took Golgari Charm's place because I needed more artifact and enchantment hate, and Claim allows you to just get a basic forest against Blood Moon decks (instead of leaving up forest and swamp for Abrupt Decay). Given the amount of U/W midrange going around MODO, I'm tempted to throw a Heroic Intervention in the sideboard, which beats all of their removal. I'm definitely on the Instants/Sorceries sideboard plan over the Creatures/Lands plan, just because flashing back a sideboard card with Snapcaster Mage doubles your fun, but I'm hoping Canonist and Fulminator change my mind re: Traversing for silver bullets (this is a Sultai Traverse deck after all).
-This deck is awesome in the mirror against Death's Shadow Aggro. I went 2-1 against the standard list last night, with Snapcaster Mage and Stubborn Denial being the MVPs. This matchup really highlights the strengths of Sultai Shadow: combining Jund's ability to land multiple threats in rapid succession with Grixis's ability to grind with Snapcaster Mage is a potent mixture, and allows you to come out ahead of DSJ on the crucial turn.
* * *
The question now is what to do with the flex spots. I've split the difference, but I think running 4 Lilis or more counters/removal (3 Stubborn/1 Abrupt Decay) in those spots is just as correct. One way to think about this is in the context of the standard color wedge decks, which has been the pattern in a number of other Death's Shadow variants. The most successful outside of Jund is Grixis, which plays like a Grixis Delver deck with discard over counterspells; same with the Abzan lists that have been going around thanks to Reid Duke's Team Modern list, which are basically more aggressive versions of The Rock, complete with 4 maindeck Lilis.
Especially when building sideboards, we might want to look at the Sultai Traverse lists which have been the best Sultai lists in Modern recently. While they don't run Snapcaster Mage, they have a similar ability to Traverse early for answers, so a few of the cheaper silver bullets are probably worth considering.
Manglehorn is better against affinity but i would NEVER leave 1xReclamation Sage out of the side board. The card is a traversable answer not only against pesky artifacts but also against some rather annoying enchantments: Blood Moon, Rest in Peace, Leyline of Sanctity, ...
You convinced me to put the Surgical Extraction in the SB. Leyline of the Void is the better grave hoser, but Surgical Extraction has applications in more match-ups. I still want to have at least one traversable graveyard hoser in my SB. Yixlid Jailer or Bojuka Bog or Scavenging Ooze?
Ethersworn Canonist needs white...
The counter spell plan against Tron sounds realy promising. Let me know if you have some results.
As enchantment hate I prefer Reclamation Sage over Nature's Claim because with thraverse we have 5 virtual copies of it while only using one SB slot. Together with the two Abrupt Decay this gives 7 enchantment removals post board. The "snapcastability" on the other hand is a plus for claim. So this spot is debatable.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/other-formats/mtgo-pauper/developing/647850-primer-angler-delver
Modern: Sultai Death's Shadow
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/773885-sultai-deaths-shadow-bug-aggro]
Legacy: Snake&Show
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27217-Deck-Sneak-and-Show
Discuss my Cube @ MTGsalvation:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=207309
Good point about Reclamation Sage, definitely going with a 1/1 split of him and Nature's Claim (one for Traverse, one for Snapcaster). Between Bojuka Bog and Yixlid Jailer, I like Jailer, and put him in my board as a single. If I need to shut down dredge, I need to shut down dredge, not turn it off for a turn. While Bog is good against other Traverse/Snapcaster decks, I think Stubborn Denial is good enough.
Haha wow duh, I picked Canonist off a Jund list I think. Well that frees up a spot.
Stubborn Denial is great against G/W Tron. B/G Tron is a bigger problem, hence the Ceremonious Rejection and Maelstrom Pulse. Since they depend on Worldbreakers and Ulamogs, Rejection is much better. Surgical Extraction is also good in this matchup.
I like Nature's Claim because it's a turn 1 answer to Leyline of Sanctity, which sees a decent amount of play online (especially games 2 and 3).
Intervention stops Sphere from targeting your creatures and Lilis, but doesn't deal with a resolved one. Stubborn Denial really shores up a lot of matchups and I think deserves a spot in the main deck. It's the deck's insurance policy against anything unfair match one, and there are very few decks against which it's a true blank.
EDIT: Here's my revised sideboard.
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Collective Brutality
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Nature's Claim
2 Stubborn Denial
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Nihil Spellbomb
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/other-formats/mtgo-pauper/developing/647850-primer-angler-delver
Modern: Sultai Death's Shadow
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/773885-sultai-deaths-shadow-bug-aggro]
Legacy: Snake&Show
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27217-Deck-Sneak-and-Show
Discuss my Cube @ MTGsalvation:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=207309
Mainly, I have thought about playing Nissa, Steward of Elements in this deck. Thoughts?
Thanks!
Traverse and bauble are uncuttable. There are still 4 flex slots where you can test nissa. On the last page you can find a core list posted by skullscorcher with potential cards for the flex slots.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/other-formats/mtgo-pauper/developing/647850-primer-angler-delver
Modern: Sultai Death's Shadow
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/773885-sultai-deaths-shadow-bug-aggro]
Legacy: Snake&Show
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27217-Deck-Sneak-and-Show
Discuss my Cube @ MTGsalvation:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=207309
The deck plays more like Death's Shadow Jund than Grixis, so the full suite of IoK/Thoughtseize/Traverse/Bauble is necessary. I'm skeptical of New Nissa in this deck simply because it has so much anti-synergy (cheap creatures which you want to play at the exact right moment and low land count) but then again I've been stuck working through those four flex spots so pretty much anything is worth a shot. Report back!
What does your main deck look like?
Regarding Spreading Seas, I can see it working in the sideboard, but the reason we've mostly used creatures and instants/sorceries is because of the synergy with Traverse and Snapcaster, respectively. Against Tron and other big land strategies, counter magic alongside Snapcaster and Surgical Extraction is where you want to be; I even pack a Ceremonious Rejection in my sideboard. Going after lands is often less effective than just discarding or countering their threats while going for the most aggressive beat down you can, because you usually only need to buy a turn or two.
Reclamation Sage is nice because both it and Traverse just cost green mana, so if you're under a Blood Moon lock you only need your forest.
Nice job on the 4-2! UW control can be tough with this deck unless you get the Thoughtseize-Snapcaster heavy draw, and it only gets harder games 2 and 3. If it's heavy in your meta you might want a Heroic Intervention in the sideboard.
4 Stubborn Denial
2 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Collective Brutality
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Ghost Quarter
And here's my SB plan up for discussion:
Jund Shadow (13%): -4 Thought Scour, -2 inqusition of k +4 Stubborn Denial, +2 maelstrom pulse
Eldrazi (11%): -2 abrupt decay, -2 thought scour, +2 maelstrom pulse +2 ceremonious rejection
Burn (6%): -4 Thoughtseize -2 abrupt decay, +4 stubborn denial +2 collective brutality
Affinity (5%): -4 Thought scour , -1 Thoughtseize +1 Reclamation Sage, +2 ceremonious rejection, +2 maelstrom pulse
Tron (4%): -4 Fatal push, -2 abrupt decay -3 inqusition of k+4 stubborn denial + 2 maelstrom +2 ceremonious rejection +1 Ghost quarter
Dredge (4%): +1 Yixlid Jailer, +2 Surgical Extraction, -2 abrupt decay, -1 thought scour
Valakut (4%): -4 fatal push, -2 abrupt decay, -3 thought scour, +4 stubborn denial, +2 maelstrom pulse, +2 surgical extraction, +1 Ghost quarter
Junk BGW (4%): -4 thought scour, -2 fatal push +4 stubborn denial +2 maelstrom pulse
Hatebear (4%): -3 thought scour, +2 maelstrom pulse, +1 reclamation sage
Grixis control (3%): -4 Fatal push, -2 abrupt decay, +4 stubborn denial, +2 maelstrom pulse
UW control (3%): -4 Fatal push, -2 abrupt decay, +4 stubborn denial, +2 collective brutality
UR Storm (3%): -4 Thought scour, -2 abrupt decay, +4 stubborn denial, +2 collective brutality
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Modern: Sultai Death's Shadow
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/773885-sultai-deaths-shadow-bug-aggro]
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Discuss my Cube @ MTGsalvation:
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I don't think that breeding pools are necessary. The moment you play scour you already have U available and three G sources (1 forest 2 tomb) in your deck. Since the deck is Bgu the availability of B turn 1 is more important.
EDIT: Actually they might be needed to ensure UU for the flashback of denial with snapcaster
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/other-formats/mtgo-pauper/developing/647850-primer-angler-delver
Modern: Sultai Death's Shadow
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/773885-sultai-deaths-shadow-bug-aggro]
Legacy: Snake&Show
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Discuss my Cube @ MTGsalvation:
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Still planning to make a primer? Would be realy cool for the further development of the deck.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/other-formats/mtgo-pauper/developing/647850-primer-angler-delver
Modern: Sultai Death's Shadow
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/773885-sultai-deaths-shadow-bug-aggro]
Legacy: Snake&Show
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Discuss my Cube @ MTGsalvation:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=207309
I have a request in with the mods but never heard back, and I haven't had time to play much lately because I've been on vacation so I haven't done much with the deck. I'm definitely still down to write up a primer.
4 Mishra's Bauble
Creature (16)
4 Death's Shadow
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Street Wraith
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Fatal Push
Sorcery (12)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
1 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Overgrown Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Watery Grave
Land (18)
Forest (1)/Swamp (1): One of each of these basic lands is necessary for Traverse the Ulvenwald and being able to survive a Blood Moon.
Overgrown Tomb (2)/Watery Grave (2): The deck’s duals are split between green and blue, with green having one more source thanks to the basic Forest. Depending on your hand, either is a fine fetch target turn one, and it’s usually correct to always fetch for these untapped to feed Death's Shadow.
Verdant Catacombs (4)/Misty Rainforest (4)/Polluted Delta (4): Fetchlands are incredibly important to the deck’s ability to churn through both life and cards in the library, and using them correctly alongside Mishra’s Bauble and Street Wraith can take some practice.
Creatures (16)
Death's Shadow (4): It’s the card that defines the archetype. Because this deck has the same BG core of the popular Death’s Shadow Aggro deck, Mr. Shadow comes out fast, hard, and often in multiples thanks to Traverse the Ulvenwald. Your most aggressive draws will see large Death's Shadows by turn 2 or 3.
Tarmogoyf (4): Goyf is the other half of the Death’s Shadow Aggro threat package, and works just as well here thanks to the same synergy with Street Wraith and Mishra's Bauble. Comebined with early discard and removal, Goyf often hits the board as a 5/6, which conveniently steps in front of pretty much ever creature in the format quite nicely.
Street Wraith (4): The final creature from the Death’s Shadow Aggro build, Street Wraith is arguably the card in the deck with the most synergies: it lowers your life for Death's Shadow, gives you a functional Opt with Mishra's Bauble and a fetchland, feeds the graveyard for Goyf and Traverse the Ulvenwald, can provide unblockable damage in locked mirror matches, and, in combination with Bauble, allows you to run a 52 card deck.
Snapcaster Mage (4): Tiago is the main reason the deck splashes blue, and most builds will run a full playset. Tiago makes the deck incredibly consistent while giving it a very strong late game, and in games 2 and 3 he doubles the value of sideboard cards. He makes Thoughtseize-heavy draws even more oppressive and flashing back Fatal Push or Abrupt Decay leads to many blowout blocks.
Sorceries (12)
Thoughtseize (4): Another piece of the Death’s Shadow Aggro deck is the 8 discard spell suite, and the star is obviously Thoughtseize. Not much to say about how great this card is other than that Snapcaster Mage makes it even better.
Inquisition of Kozilek (4): If we could run four more Thoughtseize we would, but Inquisition of Kozilek is a close second.
Traverse the Ulvenwald (4): Another one mana superstar, Traverse the Ulvenwald is functionally Death's Shadow numbers 5-8 most games. Its ability to fetch out a basic land early on to smooth out a low mana draw and feed the graveyard is well documented, and this deck adds the ability to grab a Snapcaster Mage and flash back a game-winning removal spell.
Instants(6)
Fatal Push (4): The best removal spell in the format. In this deck, Fatal Push is often part of a game-winning Push-Snap-Push blowout block.
Abrupt Decay (2): Flexible removal that provides a maindeck answer to Blood Moon and Chalice of the Void on 1. Two are crucial, and some lists run three depending on the meta.
Artifacts (4)
Mishra's Bauble (4): Competitor for the card with the most synergies in the deck: it provides a scry with a fetchland (and an Opt with a Street Wraith), buffs Goyf and helps trigger Delirium for Traverse the Ulvenwald, gives you better than perfect information with your turn one Thoughtseize, and alongside Street Wraith allows you to run a 52 card deck.
Flex Spots (4)
Stubborn Denial (0-3): Another main reason to splash blue is countermagic, and Stubborn Denial is a functional one-mana Negate most of the time. Stubborn Denial shores up some of Death’s Shadow Aggro’s less-favorable matchups, namely Tron and combo. It also provides insurance during the crucial turn between playing a lethal Death's Shadow and swinging in with it.
Liliana, the Last Hope (0-2): The Eldritch Moon Liliana provides the deck with solid token removal and threat recursion, as well as an ultimate that gets activated with surprising frequency. Between her and Liliana of the Veil, you should run two planeswalkers to help Delirium and Goyf.
Liliana of the Veil (0-2): She’s the best planewalker in the format. Great for clearing out the last card in an opponent’s hand or taking out an evasive creature.
Maelstrom Pulse (0-1): Catchall removal is sometimes necessary in the maindeck, and it doesn’t get much better than Maelstrom Pulse, which has the incidental ability of mopping up pesky tokens with ease.
Thought Scour (0-4): The most controversial card in the deck. It has obvious synergies with a ton of cards, but is high risk given the low number of mana-producing lands, and finding an early opportunity to cast it while still applying pressure can be difficult. Over the deck’s short lifespan, many lists have run a full playset, while other have eschewed it entirely, and it has been largely squeezed out with the full adoption of the Death’s Shadow Aggro Traverse the Ulvenwald package alongside a full playset of Snapcaster Mage.
Sideboard (15)
Stubborn Denial (1-4): Great against combo and Tron. Usually comes in for some number of Fatal Push and Abrupt Decay.
Ceremonious Rejection (0-2): Comes in against Tron, Eldrazi, and Affinity.
Surgical Extraction (0-2): Good against a wide range of decks, and even better with Snapcaster Mage.
Collective Brutality (1-2): Additional discard, removal, and a little bit of reach, you should never leave home without at least one Collective Bruality.
Golgari Charm (0-2): A nice bit of tech that combats a number of strategies, including the dreaded Lingering Souls. Its second mode most frequently targets Blood Moon and Spreading Seas.
Nature’s Claim (0-1): An even more efficient answer to Blood Moon as well as any artifact you may come across.
Liliana, the Last Hope (0-2)/Liliana of the Veil (0-2): Whichever Lili you aren’t running maindeck should go in your sideboard. Liliana, the Last Hope gives the deck some legs against Supreme Verdict, and Liliana of the Veil is good against combo and Eldrazi Tron.
Reclamation Sage (1): A Traverseable removal spell that only costs green in a must against decks running Blood Moon or Ensnaring Bridge.
Yixlid Jailer (0-1): A silver bullet against Dredge.
Fulminator Mage (0-1): A silver bullet against any land deck.
Nihil Spellbomb (0-2): Another piece of graveyard hate that feeds your graveyard and cantrips. Most sideboards run some sort of 2-1 split of these and Surgical Extraction.
Ghost Quarter (0-1): An alternative piece of Traverse-friendly land hate.
-Bojuka Bog asymetric gravehoser that doesn't take a spell slot and can be traversed.
-Big Game Hunter traversable removal for large creatures, a little too expensive, but if the meta has lots of eldrazi and death's shadow the card might be worth it.
-Tooth Collector traversable hate against decks going wide (elves, tokens, affinity), a little too expensive, but if the meta is heavy on such decks it's a great choice.
-Dispel is great if you have lots of grixis control in your meta.
-Maelstrom Pulse is not only useful for the main but also for the side.
-Vendillion Clique if your meta has lots of ad nauseam and control.
-Jace, Vryn's Prodigy against grindy match ups. His looting is great for this deck. Just a little too slow for the main.
-Spellskite if burn is big in your meta.
-Phyrexian Revoker if Nahiri/superfriends is big in your meta.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/other-formats/mtgo-pauper/developing/647850-primer-angler-delver
Modern: Sultai Death's Shadow
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/773885-sultai-deaths-shadow-bug-aggro]
Legacy: Snake&Show
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27217-Deck-Sneak-and-Show
Discuss my Cube @ MTGsalvation:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=207309
The 8 discard spells are crucial. It's your main turn 1 play. I would even squeeze in 1-2 more if something close to TS or IoK is printed.
I tried Jace in the side board. IF he flips he's strong, but if my opponent has no removals, shadow or goyf win faster.
If you're scared of decks going wide, ther's Drown in Sorrow.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/other-formats/mtgo-pauper/developing/647850-primer-angler-delver
Modern: Sultai Death's Shadow
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/773885-sultai-deaths-shadow-bug-aggro]
Legacy: Snake&Show
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Discuss my Cube @ MTGsalvation:
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Exactly, we want to be Jund with Snapcaster not Grixis with Traverse.
The "mirrors" are usually about the last threat standing. The combination of snapcaster and traverse gives sultai the edge over jund and grixis.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/other-formats/mtgo-pauper/developing/647850-primer-angler-delver
Modern: Sultai Death's Shadow
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/773885-sultai-deaths-shadow-bug-aggro]
Legacy: Snake&Show
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Discuss my Cube @ MTGsalvation:
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EDIT: The theory behind the deck is basically that the BG Death's Shadow shell is incredibly powerful and consistent, but that it lacks enough recursion to go long and the ability to interact on the stack, which is where a lot of the Jund losses come from. Adding Snapcaster and Stubborn Denial shores up those bad matchups without losing any of the explosiveness, and are just plain better than K Command for grinding. The Grixis creature package relies on Delve, which is a horrible nonbo with Traverse and Tarmogoyf, so we moved quickly away from that.
It's unclear which Liliana is better maindeck. I've had success with LotV by discarding my own cards to fuel Delirium, and it always feels good when my opponent works hard to kill her just to put that crucial fourth type in the graveyard.
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Modern: Sultai Death's Shadow
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/773885-sultai-deaths-shadow-bug-aggro]
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Discuss my Cube @ MTGsalvation:
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-> Another card to add to the potential SB options in the primer
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/other-formats/mtgo-pauper/developing/647850-primer-angler-delver
Modern: Sultai Death's Shadow
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/773885-sultai-deaths-shadow-bug-aggro]
Legacy: Snake&Show
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Discuss my Cube @ MTGsalvation:
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Rejection costs one less (which is huge, especially for snapcaster flashback), but stroke seems to be the more versatile counterspell in a SB against more match-ups. Rejection is not that strong against affinity (board already cluttered early) and Eldrazi (Cavern of souls). Stroke on the other hand is great against ALL control/big mana strategies.
Opinions?
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Modern: Sultai Death's Shadow
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/773885-sultai-deaths-shadow-bug-aggro]
Legacy: Snake&Show
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Discuss my Cube @ MTGsalvation:
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