In my (so far limited) testing, BBE is a great addition to this deck. In the version I play, the worst hits are Noble Hierarch and Lotus Cobra, and those are not even that bad. The times I've hit Rallier with Revolt, Saheeli and Evolution have felt insanely powerful. If you're playing a value-oriented build like mine, elf is a great card that probably elevates this deck's power level. I'm currently running only 3 BBE to have room for more bullets, and only a single Guardian.
In my (so far limited) testing, BBE is a great addition to this deck. In the version I play, the worst hits are Noble Hierarch and Lotus Cobra, and those are not even that bad. The times I've hit Rallier with Revolt, Saheeli and Evolution have felt insanely powerful. If you're playing a value-oriented build like mine, elf is a great card that probably elevates this deck's power level. I'm currently running only 3 BBE to have room for more bullets, and only a single Guardian.
No changes since last Saturday (2-3) and only one change in the sideboard compared to my first run with the deck (3-1).
Beat Jeskai Control 2-1 in round 1, the first two games were long and very back and forth, the third one was a quick bloodbath thanks to Gaddock Teeg stopping his sweeper. Cards like Rhino, Elspeth, Lingering Souls and Blade Splicer were fantastic in this matchup, he was constantly forced to answer almost every card I played, and had to keep the combo in mind too.
Round 2 I faced Bant Vizier Company, and we both mulliganed to 5 in the first game. I kept an anemic 4 lands + Pridemage and lost to his turn 4 combo, but game 2 my draw of 2 Voices + Elspeth somehow got there before he did anything truly relevant. Now game 3 was extremely interesting:
He started with Forest and no turn 1 play, I had a Hierarch. He played a second Forest and Devoted Druid, and I untapped, found a Bird with Oath, and played Collective Brutality. Since I had the combo in hand, I decided I could afford to discard my Rhino to kill both his Druid and duress him. His hand was no more lands, but Fauna Shaman, Witness, Spell Queller, Path and Company. He only has two Forests for mana and I have the combo in hand, so Company and Spell Queller seem mostly irrelevant to me, and I take his Path away, feeling great about my chances. He plays Gavony Township + Fauna Shaman, and I drop Saheeli, having no third land, but scrying one to the top. He untaps, attacks Saheeli for 2, plays Witness to return Path, and a fetchland. This throws a wrench in my combo plans, and I decide to play Bird and my third land, then sac Bird to Evo for Vengeful Rebel to kill his Fauna Shaman. On his turn he attacks Saheeli for 2 again (at 3 loyalty currently) and I decide keeping Vengeful Rebel around is more valuable than 2 extra loyalty on Saheeli. He passes with 4 mana and Company up (but still unable to cast his Spell Queller). I untap and draw a second Evo. Perfect time to force him to use his Path, otherwise he can cast Company. I cast Felidar, he misplays by using Path right away instead of waiting for me activate Saheeli, so I get two +1 activations this turn and can swing with Vengeful Rebel for 4 (Exalted from Hierarch). With the second Evo in hand I can probably combo next turn, so I don't like it when he plays a second Witness to get that Path back again and attacks Saheeli down to 2 loyalty. Now what to do? Whatever I get with Evo, he can just Path. Well, what about Wingmate Roc? He chumps my attack, then I sac Rebel to Evo for Roc and Saheeli pings him to 11 life. He untaps, plays an untapped shockland and a Hierach, then passes with mana to cast either Company or Path (In hindsight, this was bad. He should have passed with all 5 lands up). With him at 9, I decide that using Saheeli -2 on Roc is good here: This gives me lethal in the air, so he has to do something, and if he uses Path, I can attack for 4 in the air with the token (exalted), then do that again next turn and kill him with Saheeli. He lets me copy Roc, casts Company and dies when I Path his only flying blocker.
Forcing damage through the air with Elspeth and Roc was crucial in both games that I won, and the threat of combo totally warped his game plan in game 3. With him having all these Paths, I couldn't have actually won via combo, but I could constantly mess with his curve - he couldn't afford to cast Company until I attacked for lethal!
Match 3 was vs an unknown opponent, but I just figured out that he was on Ad Nauseam before killing him turn 3 on the play. Game 2 I drew Gaddock Teeg, Sin Collector, Reclamation Sage and the combo, so his single Thoughtseize was heavily outgunned and I demolished him.
In the final round I knew my opponent was on Ponza, which isn't an awful matchup, but can certainly go wrong if he draws well. He mulled to 5 in game 1 and after a fast start with some land destruction has no top end to follow it up, so he dies to some Voices and an Evo for Rhino. He proceeds to demonstrate what his deck can do when it fires on all cylinders in game 2 and I get crushed. In game 3 I mull to 5, he to 6, and my opener isn't exactly great, but he kept 1 land plus Utopia Sprawl and Arbor Elf, which gets punished by my Abrupt Decay on the Elf. I follow that up with Blade Splicer + Elspeth, and he fails to assemble enough mana for his expensive hand (he later showed me Stormbreath Drago + Inferno Titan). Topdecked Avalanche Riders to kill his enchanted land seal the deal. His Blood Moon did nothing this game. (Oath allowed me to cast Elspeth, and Avalanche Riders don't care.)
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Overall I was once again happy with my list, and glad that I stuck with it after the mediocre result last time. I totally enjoy how the mix of cards like Rhino and Lingering Souls with the Saheeli combo keeps opponents on their toes. This deck pressures opponents really well, and in most matchups the combo is more backup and distraction than the actual plan A. The mana works, since there are enough cards like Blade Splicer, Lingering Souls and Felidar Guardian that are rather easy to cast. The sideboard feels balanced and powerful, Titanshift is the only important matchup I can think of that it doesn't adress well, but you can't have it all with just 15 cards.
Match 1 - Mono-white Taxes G1 on the play I made a (questionable) keep of one land, Hierarch, Evo, Jace, and something else that seemed pretty decent if I drew one more land. And of course I didn't draw a land for 3+ turns. Fell behind, drew a Saheeli I couldn't cast (no red / oath), and got run over. SB -2 Jace, -2 Evo // +1 Path, +1 Helix, +1 Justice, +1 Explosives G2 my opponent leads with Vial and I had a pretty average hand. Luckily for me my opponent proceeded to draw his other three Vials, giving me a lot of breathing room to play around Cat Jesus and win with beats G3 I keep a hand with both combo pieces, 2 lands, cobra, and path. Cobra gets Sunlance’d and he tries to stripmine me but I Path Cat Jesus in response and search up my basics. He starts creeping up on the board with a Resto blink but I combo out a turn later. Games 2-1 // Overall 1-0
Match 2 - 8-Rack G1 I get hit with Smallpox pretty early but I manage to stick a Voice followed by Blade Splicer, then Felidar blinking Splicer and Evo a Bird into Rallier returning Voice. He has a Shrieking Affliction down but it doesn’t matter. SB -3 Path, -1 Saheeli, -1 Felidar, -2 Evo // +1 Explosives, +1 Spell Pierce, +1 Helix, +1 Thalia, +1 Ooze, +1 Rec Sage, +1 Tracker G2 I start to out-pace his hand disruption and spot removal, building up a board, but just before I can go for lethal he wipes the board with Bontu’s Last Reckoning. I have a couple turns to draw more gas but come up blank while he plays Rack and Affliction to turn the corner and win. G3 I keep an unimpressive 6er with some Oaths and Felidars. Raven’s Crime and Wrench Mind clear my entire hand within a couple turns. He plays double Affliction for the win. Games 1-2 // Overall 1-1
Match 3 - Abzan Company G1 I combo out with T2 Cobra into T3 Fetch, Evo, Saheeli. SB -1 Courser, -2 Splicer, -2 Jace, -1 Thragtusk // +1 Path, +1 Helix, +1 Justice, +1 Explosives, +1 Staticaster, +1 Gaddock G2 He calls a judge over at the beginning and they whisper some stuff. I keep a hand with Saheeli, Path, ramp. After pathing his Devoted Druid he gets the Finks combo together to gain 4 billion life. Next turn I combo out and swing with 400 trillion Felidars. In response he sacs the Finks 401 trillion times and my heart sinks a little bit as I realize that the judge call was asking how the infinite combos interacted. It then became a race to see who could disrupt the other person’s combo first. Naturally he Scry’d a Path to the top to hit Felidar. I draw another Felidar (:D), play it, and flip my top library card to reveal Lightning Helix. However, he’s stacked his library to complete the Druid combo on his next turn so the Helix is too late. G3 I mull to a 4 with 2 fetches, Path, and Staticaster on the play. I Path his first druid, then draw into Fiery Justice, which is a 4-for-1 hitting Viscera Seer, Ballista, Vizier, and a Hierarch. He plays another Vizier and I flash in Staticaster to ping it out. He plays Devoted Druid and I play Saheeli, cloning Staticaster to shock the Druid out. He CoCos into his last two druids and I draw into Explosives, detonating it on 2 to blow them both up. Finally I draw into Felidar and combo out. Saheeli Control for the win! Games 2-1 // Overall 2-1
Match 4 - BUG midrange G1 I can’t remember what was in my hand but it was immediately picked down with Inquisition and Thoughtseize. He plays Ashiok on an empty board, ticks her up, and exiles one of my Felidars. I get a Voice on the board and he ticks Ashiok down to cast the Feldiar, flickers Ashiok with the Felidar, and then ticks her down to exile more of my creatures. He keeps my board and hand fairly clear and continues to take over the game with Ashiok. At one point I play Jace and have to -1 him to bounce a Goyf, and next turn brainstorm to shuffle away two lands and keep a Path (hits Goyf), Courser, and something else. Jace gets hit by Felidars and Goyf next turn and the brainstorm, while nice, doesn’t catch me up from behind. SB -2 Hierarch, -1 Bird, -3 Evo, -1 Pridemage // +1 Path, +1 Thalia, +1 Tracker, +1 Spell Pierce, +1 Unified Will, +1 Ooze, +1 Explosives G2 much like the first game except worse, lol. My hand and board are picked apart by Thoughtseize and Push, giving him room to land Ashiok again and start taking over. He also Surgical Extractions Saheeli and Snap Extracts Voice out of my deck juuuust to be sure. After he has two Goyfs, my courser, and my Rallier on the field with no combo out I scoop it up. Games 0-2 // Overal 2-2
Thoughts & takeaways
Jace -- I boarded out at least one copy for 3 of my 4 matchups and only got to cast him once. As Emzed mentioned, he does a lot of things that the deck wants -- brainstorms you into combo pieces while potentially shuffling away dead cards and acts as a potential alternate win-con on a stalled board -- but he won't do much to bring you back when you're behind and in my midrange matchup I was playing from behind pretty much immediately. I still think he could have a place somewhere in an optimal 75 but it's very meta dependent and I wouldn't encourage anyone to rush out and drop $100+ on him, lol. Perhaps the global meta will skew more towards interactive decks where he shines but I've still got plenty of aggro and combo to deal with at my shop.
Courser of Kruphix -- I didn't mention her much specifically in my match summary but she was just generally solid and did good work.
Blade Splicer -- performs very well against non-evasive aggro and control while buying you a bit of time vs midrange. For me it kind of competes with the Finks slot since they do some similar things, so you have to make sure you have enough lifegain packed into the rest of your 75 if you're expecting Burn.
Fiery Justice -- it's hard not to be impressed with a 4-for-1. All of our sweeper options are kinda hit or miss in this deck but for now I'm back to feeling that this is one of our best options as long as it's supported with enough instant speed spot removal to cover Justice's weakness of being sorcery speed.
Renegade Rallier -- I felt the low Rallier count (1x) rather keenly in the BUG matchup. This is one of the best cards for rescuing your game after you're hit with discard. If midrange continues to rise I'd like to find room for a second copy in the 75.
Gavony Township -- I had to mull away at least 2 sketchy hands with one fetch + one gavony and some potentially uncastable spells. I kept a Gavony + Fetch opener after mulling for another one of my matchups (why did this card show up in my openers so much?? haha) and regretted it due to sequencing troubles. It's a great tool for late game board stalls but I think the deck already has consistency issues and needs all the help it can get with mulligans. Perhaps I'm being colored too much by these rough mulls but I don't think I'll be running any more colorless utility lands in the deck for a while.
This marks the 3rd week I've gone 2-2, which isn’t terrible, but my combined game win rate of 47% is a little disheartening. I really appreciate the deck's interesting value lines and potential for fast combo starts. Every game is different and it keeps you thinking. However, as nice as it is to have the versatility of two different deck plans I don't feel like I have enough control over reliably taking the role I need for a given matchup. As a result the fast aggro / combo decks race better than us on average and the grindy midrange decks grind better than us on average. Sometimes we run hot with both our mulls and draws to hit early combos and relevant disruption. Other times I just feel like I'm durdling with incremental value while the opponent makes more powerful plays.
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I think the deck really needs some combination of additional card selection and broad interaction in the main:
More card selection - Oath and Evo can’t grab the powerful instants, sorceries, or enchantments that we often lean on to even out matchups, sometimes digging you right past what you need, which is a big part of the problem with selecting your role and reliably presenting relevant interaction. We also have a lot of random irrelevant one-ofs or cards that are really terrible in multiples (hand fulls of Felidars, Evos, Saheelis, Ralliers, or Dorks will all lose games) that we really want to cycle somehow.
Alternatively, we need more main deck disruption that synergizes with the deck’s core. Storm has Remand, Company has Tidehollow Sculler / Spell Queller, Grixis As Foretold has Izzet Charm / Lava Axe. We need more broadly interactive creatures and fewer narrow silver bullets. I’ve previously proposed Vendilion Clique but maybe there are some other good options.
Another option is to run more modal spells that can help us flex between roles. This is what I was aiming for with Glittering Wish. Collective Brutality and Izzet Charm are also nice examples of the effect I’m thinking of but they’re unfortunately mana intensive for us. This is where Jace or some other Planeswalkers could still hypothetically fit in.
Our 2-drop slot is still a little weak IMO. Something like UW for a 2/1 creature with Sleight of Hand on ETB would be perfect.
@Shelldell a few questions.
3 guardians in the deck. When you cast them do you usually gain value from them (splicer, oath, rallier, tusk)?
Usually Felidar generates some value, yeah. Occasionally you get some awkward openers that have Felidar and no blink target that you probably need to mull unless the rest of the curve is really good. It's not a great card so I could see shaving to 2 copies but I always want more than one so that my combo plan doesn't fold to a single Path and so that digging for Felidar with Oath has a higher success rate.
Has qasali pridemage maindeck been good for you? You mentioned the lack of good two-drops that can smooth our draws so I was wondering if that a critic directed at qasali. I have been happy with slime since it doubles as hate for big mana strategies.
Yes, Pridemage has been solid. Between gobs of Merfolk, Humans, and Taxes all playing Vials, Affinity being present, decks with mainboard Blood Moon like Ponza and Red Prison, there are a lot of artifacts and enchantments that I would prefer to remove earlier than later, and against every other deck a 2/2 with Exalted isn't a bad floor. I also like having more 2-drops both to smooth our curve and Evo into Felidar. If you go all-in on 4x Cobra + 4x Rallier + 4x Evo then Acidic Slime can be reliably accessible by ~T3, so I can see how it would work for your list. Without maxing out on that Cobra-Rallier-Evo package I find Slime's interaction to be a little slow with a body that's irrelevant in most matchups except midrange.
The spell pierce/unified will in the sideboard confuses me. Mind sharing your thoughts on the split?
Unified Will is an incredible spell against Big Mana decks, especially in the mid game if you can establish a board presence. However, against decks with lots of interaction or a fast combo you can find the spell getting inactivated when you need it most. For example against Storm I had my Bird Bolted and then I couldn't stop my opponent from going off next turn since they had Baral and I had no creatures. Spell Pierce is a slightly more reliable and mana efficient way to interact with decks that try to cast game-winning unfair spells in the early game, and occasionally it can accomplish some of the same things you want out of Unified Will, like countering Karns or Scapeshifts cast on curve. Running a split lets you bring in the more relevant counterspell if you only have space to swap one in, or bring in both against Big Mana when you really need it.
Finally the plains/forest 2-2 split. Has that been working for you? Since I moved from that split to 3 forest/1 plains I have never looked back but I recognize that since I am playing coiling oracle the 3-1 split makes more sense to me.
As a general rule of thumb I like having enough basics to cast most of my spells through Blood Moon. Previously I've ran Gearhulk, Sigarda, Lancers, or some other WW card that I wanted to support with two plains. Otherwise I agree that 3 Forests + 1 Plains better suits our ratio of mana costs.
One other thing: whats your winning percentage with the combo? Like in 10 games you win do you win with the combo in about 5 of those games?
That depends on what I'm playing against. Against evasive aggro decks it's like 80% combo and 20% beats. Against non-evasive aggro it's 50-50. Against Midrange or Control it's 80% beats and 20% combo. Against combo and Tron it's probably 60% combo and 40% beats. Since I have a lot of evasive aggro, combo, and Tron at my shop that's pushed me more towards combo wins -- over my last two FNM sessions 72% of my wins came from the combo and 28% from beats.
over my last two FNM sessions 72% of my wins came from the combo and 28% from beats.
Wow, that's a surprising stat, even if you have a higher number of combo pieces. In my recent FNM I only actually ended the game via combo only once, and won seven games by disrupting and attacking my opponent the fair way. Of course, there were a few games where the combo influenced the game in a relevant way without successfully creating lots of cats, but for me it is really more of a plan B (that's either a complete surprise or a big scary threat for my opponents, depending on what they know).
If I got everything right from stu20's report, he achieved 3 of his 10 game wins via combo, and the rest was won by Thragtusk, Voices, Glorybringer, Gearhulk etc.
Those are nowhere near significant numbers, but it fits with my personal experiences with the deck: Relying totally on the combo isn't feasable, you need a very solid plan for the games where the combo doesn't work. Take the free wins from the combo, those are great, but they aren't enough. We can't achieve the speed and consistency of similar combo decks (Counters Company) because our combo is more expensive and assembling it is harder. We need to be a good midrange deck some of the time, and make sure that our combo pieces work well with that plan.
As of now, I want some kind of removal card in the MD but I don't have any. I had Chupa in the Jace version but without the ability to Brainstorm it away I am less excited about that. I would prefer the creature synergize with Saheeli and Felidar. Sideboard is short two slots. I NEED something for Tron/Shift. Blood Moon seems like it would hurt me too much. That said, deck has felt VERY good.
I played Unified Will in the previous, non Bloodbraid version. Cascading into it seems gross. Do I just cut Bloodbraid against Tron? Also, it's awkward not to bring in my counter magic against control decks because I certainly don't want to cut Bloodbraid against them
Between Gaddock Teeg, Stony Silence, Avalanche Riders and Glen Elendra, you seem reasonably prepared for Tron. You could add Aven Mindcensor to combat both Tron and Titanshift (as well as Storm and Chord of Calling decks). It's easy to kill, but can hurt them a lot when things work out.
Blood Moon actually is a fine option, with all the mana creatures, 11 fetches and 4 basics you can make it work. With just one Forest and one Plains, you can cast most of your spells.
And 4-0 AGAIN with 5c Rhino Saheeli
List mostly the same as before, only added two Aven Mindcensors to the sideboard for a Stony Silence and the Eidolon.
Beat UB Control, WB Aristocrats, RB Hollow One and GW Value Town. Also did some test games before the tournament vs Ponza with me winning all 3 games before sideboarding and ~4-2 after sideboarding. Once again, the combo was only responsible for ~25% of my game wins.
Thanks stu20! The Hollow One opponent didn't have very good draws, it wasn't hard to beat the deck in those two games. I don't remember it perfectly, but game 1 I basically drew only Hierarchs and Evos, so I tutored for Vengeful Rebel to kill his Flameblade Adept, then evo'd the Rebel into Wingmate Roc the next turn, and that was enough to win. Game 2 I flooded the board early with Voice + Lingering Souls, then cast a topdecked Rhino and he conceded because he knew about Elspeth in my hand (from Brutality).
After testing about 5 or 6 matches with your list (not a big sample size i know, but i playtest the other versions A LOT and played the deck throughout its time in standard so I feel like i have a pretty decent feel for saheeli decks) I won every match and it honestly felt great. Some of the biggest takeaways:
The deck outside of the combo felt much much better than other versions ive tried. In other versions the shell that you build around is just kind of mopey on its own. Voice of resurgence is great in these shells, but cobra plus rallier just has to have too much go right for it to be good, and other shells just wouldnt be a decent deck by themselves without the combo. Here Youre essentially playing an abzan blink type deck with rhino as the centerpiece. SaffronOlive lately had pretty decent success with an unburial rites deck that just wanted to abuse and blink rhino and thats all it did..and it did pretty well! This shell is very reminiscent of that game plan and it makes the deck feel much more like it did back in standard when you were playing temur energy when you didnt have the combo. Major props for putting in the testing on rhino because I know I for one just simply didnt want to go to 5 colors..even though your only non-abzan colored card is Saheeli. Rhino really is simply the best 4 drop for this shell. Also as weird as this sounds, it doesnt seem to stress the mana as much as say pia and kiran nalaar was in other versions. Youre essentially playing abzan that splashes saheeli (which sounds really weird but oath of nissa and 7 dorks makes it possible) as opposed to bant red where pia or glorybringer can really strain things. I was always hesitant to try this version because of the mana, but if you play it like an abzan deck that incidentally gets to play saheeli because of oath and dorks, you should be fine. Also i took out the gavony township from your list because i was scared of mana issues at first, but might try to put it back in. We’ll see. Will also continue to tune the sideboard for whatever meta im considering.
Gonna try and take this to my LGS which is fairly competitive when I have the chance and will report back.
Oh, just for reference my matches were against jund traverse shadow, mono blue taking turns with jace, sultai deaths shadow, a weird mono green stompy deck, blue red jace moon, and something else that im forgetting right now.
Tl;dr rhino is perfect for the saheeli/felidar shell and the mana isnt as bad as youd think believe it or not.
'sup. Been peeking at the thread for a while. Couple players at my LGS have been on the deck for a good bit now and have had a lot of success locally. I picked up my missing pieces this past Friday and have run it at Friday night modern the day I bought in with no practice, a 50 person 1k prize pool local tourney on the following day Saturday, Monday night Modern, and Tuesday night Modern. I went 3-1 Friday, 4-2 Saturday coming in 12th, 3-1 Monday and 3-1 Tuesday. Total so far is 13-5 in matches with the deck. This deck is disgusting, I was in on the development of the suicide zoo thread before it was cool and this deck feels just as powerful and unknown as when I found that. You are definitely onto something here, keep it up. My matches have been against (no particular order):
Losses
Blue Moon Jace 1-2 Could have won G3 but my inexperience got the best of me and I was outplayed convincingly as well. I felt favored.
Ironworks combo 0-2 Mulled into oblivion and conceded G1 as I knew his deck and he didnt know mine. G2 I had the T4 kill and he killed me T3.
Mono G Tron 1-2 He topdecked tron his last turn alive to play ugin and lock me out of the game. My hands were subpar and I like the tron matchup overall.
Infect 1-2 Punished for my lack of interaction here, still almost won in 3. Definitely a matchup I will be teching for in the future as it felt bad.
As Foretold Goryo's 1-2 He drew well and this deck looked absolutely unstoppable. I killed him on the play and was his only game loss of the night.
Wins
Bogles 2 Matches 4-0 Honestly this feels like an autowin unless they main suppression field.
Bloodbraid Jund 2 Matches 4-1 I have just grinded better, both of these players are solid and grind the archetype. I feel favored and only change 1 card SB.
U/W Jace 2-0 Recurred Voice a bunch, and it didnt feel close either game. He respected the combo until my 2/2's killed him.
GBx Splashing for 2 MD Lingering Souls 2-1 Last round Saturday, both my opponent and I misplayed. I got there as he made the bigger mistakes.
Mono G Tron 2-0 Comboed him T2 both games. Was gross.
Skred Red 2-1 Super grindy and interesting matchup. I did not feel favored here but managed to grind out a win.
8 Whack 2-0 Paired with my gf for this one. I had good hands and killed he before dying T4 both games.
G/R HollowVine 2-0 My roomate was on my side deck here, he led with a hollow one T1 both games, but combo got him.
R/B Control burn Homebrew 2-0 Opponents 1st match of his 1st modern tournament. Nice guy but his deck was not ready to handle the modern gauntlet.
One Drop Zoo (Not Revolt) 2-1 Turns out nacatl into a flurry of burn spells is dece. Both my games I won at less then 3 life and faded a draw step.
That is one match short on the wins, cant for the life of me remember who my 5th round opponent was or their deck. Ah, well. That's fine. Here is my current list. The flex spots are Sigarda, pridemage and witness. They changed for every tournament between Sideboard and main. My Sb is in flux but I'll post it if there is interest and I can answer any questions in depth about matchups I have played. The one thing I will say is I am winning around 70% of my games with combo but that may just be my playstyle.
2-2 at FNM with 5c Rhino Saheeli
No changes since Wednesday, and the deck was still good, but I made some costly mistakes. I beat Affinity and Grixis Control pretty handily, and had Druid Company on the ropes after winning game 1. However, I failed to draw anything relevant to close out game 2 after a good start, and then he combo-killed me through Gaddock Teeg plus removal for the first two Devoted Druids. Being so close to the win lead to me keeping a highly questionable hand in game 3 (too few lands) and losing the turn before I could combo. I just got baited by the great spells in my hand, but I really should have mulliganed.
The final match was against UR Moon with Thing in the Ice. Game 1 I assembled a board state of Rhino plus Roc and his buddy, which felt like a safe bet against a deck without Path, Terminate or Supreme Verdict. Roast on Rhino, Thing in the Ice, 3 Opts and a Serum Visions later he had stabilized at 1 life, and I failed to draw another Rhino, Saheeli or Brutality to finish him. The flipped Awoken Horror got help from Jace and killed me quickly.
After that first game, I should have had more respect for Thing in the Ice, but I decided to put only two removals in my deck for game 2 and got punished when he played Things on turn 2 and 3. I still came close to winning after he flipped them both, but Cryptic to counter my Evo and tap all my blockers put an end to that. Having a few more answers to those 7/8s would probably have made my life a lot easier, but that was my own choice.
Hey hey, just checking in after having a relatively successful couple days, going 2-0-2 Thursday night, followed by 3-1 FNM. I really liked the look of this list that won an IQ, so I put it together. After some small tweaks, this is what I brought on Thursday:
2-0 vs Ponza. Got a bit lucky that's his draws didn't cooperate G1. G2 I went T3 second cobra, rallier, Saheeli copy rallier, avalanche riders your Utopia'd land.
2-0 vs Burn. Sigarda, end of story. She also insulates the combo from bolt which can be nice.
1-1-1 vs BBE Jund. Casual modern, so we were both taking our time thinking our turns through, and as a result neither of us could finish in turns. Great match, really intricate, lots of play to it. Which is great, as it gives me plenty of opportunity to screw up and get the wrong thing with Evo
1-1 vs Amulet. Another super intricate match. Won G1. G2, on T3 of turns, he swings with 18 trample power, me at 6 with Saheeli in play. Last turn I scried Evo to the top. I chump with everything except an Oracle to survive at 1, but postcombat Ruric Thar locks me out.
Changes for Friday:
MD
-1 Wall of Omens
+1 Eternal Witness
SB
-1 Kataki
+1 Tireless Tracker
0-2 vs Burn. Steamrolled. Having to keep shaky hands, no Sigarda, got burned.
2-0 vs Affinity. G1 he had a slow draw with no payoffs and only Inkmoth beats. G2 he mulls to five and I have all the SB action in the world.
2-1 vs Gr Tron, no Karns due to budget. G1 I keep a slow midrange hand and Ugin seals the deal. G2 Stony turns off 2 relics and 2 eggs. G3 was very tight. I went to copy a Cobra with 2 Felidar in hand, threatening to make 8 mana, this plays around 1 dismember no matter what he does, which he had.
2-1 vs Storm. G1 she goes off T3, not able to disrupt with Chup or Sigarda. Postboard is a lot better naturally. We had 2 Eidolon games, backed up by some paths and countermagic. She was never able to remove Eidolon.
It seems like the 4/4/4 configuration of dorks/cobra/rallier is the consensus between these builds.
The winning list from the IQ also has the spicy 1-of chupacabra with no black sources
I was expecting JTMS to make some headway in these decks but it seems a tuned build has not been found yet (although it seems to be performing alright in Hoogland's latest KikiChord streams).
Unfortunately I have not had time to play the deck since the unbannings, but what has everyone's experiences been playing AGAINST BBE and JTMS? (specifically BBE Jund as it has been on a huge upswing lately)
I've found Merfolk to be closer to 40:60... We can take games when we get lucky with early combos and sweepers but racing them has almost always ended poorly for me. The most important parts of this matchup are keeping them off Islandwalk by mulling away opening hands that either have a Breeding Pool / Hallowed Fountain or require you to fetch for blue, blowing up Spreading Seas, and/or sniping their Lords, and presenting an early combo before they get too set-up and start holding up mana for interaction.
In theory Engineered Explosives and Fiery Justice should be really good against them but between mainboarded Cursecatchers + Spell Pierces and SB Negates actually resolving your sweepers at the right moment can be tricky, and we don't have any way to filter up or tutor for spell-based sweepers so overall it's not the most consistent defense. Sometimes you land a sweeper and its a blow-out. I've also had a few games where I've stuck Engineered Explosives T2 that they played around with a 1-drop, 2-drop, and 3-drop on board, keeping the rest of their 2-drops in hand. If you're going to play EE I'd maybe hold it back so that they play into it a bit more before you deploy it and immediately crack it. However, deploying it later after they've set up more does run the risk of playing EE into an open Negate. Fiery Justice can be a bit more reliable and mana efficient against them, though it favors comboing rather than trying to race due to the life gain. I think this is okay since racing isn't a great approach anyways as I've mentioned.
Gearhulk is a really welcome sight and your best card in the matchup next to Path as long as you've got some acceleration to get it out by T4. I've got 4 Merfolk players at my shop so I've even thought about running 2x Gearhulks in the side, lol. If you're in black then Vengeful Rebel and Abrupt Decay are game-winning cards -- cloning / blinking Rebel can make racing feasible and Decay can hit all of their most threatening cards, Lords / Vial / Seas, without getting stopped by Curse Catcher or Spell Pierce. In Red Abrade serves as a passable poor-man's Abrupt Decay, and Lightning Helix can help stabilize a bit as well. Worship can be good if they're not running too many copies of Vapor Snag or Echoing Truth. . My most successful plays usually involved getting Saheeli down after Felidar -- T1 Bird > T2 Removal > T3 Felidar > T4 Saheeli. This matchup also rewards running more copies of Felidar Guardian rather than just 1x Felidar + 4x Evo since Evo can be taxed by Cursecatcher and hit by their counterspells.
You've probably noticed a theme here: Negate answers our most important cards in the matchup: removal, Evo, and Saheeli. If they mull to a reasonably aggressive hand with Negate and are familiar with the matchup / play smartly they will probably win. If you're running a typical 4c list -- especially one with 4x Evo and 1x Felidar -- I honestly don't think there's much you can do to make things consistently favorable without really warping your 75. If you're on a 5c or psuedo-abzan midrange plan like Emzed I think you can stand a decent chance if your post-board 60 looks something like this:
Staticaster is a tricky call. I've had one (good) Fish player tell me that I should bring it in if only to deal with Master of the Waves but I've heard a couple other players say they want to cut Master of Waves to bring in more copies of Negate, Echoing Truth, or Dismember to keep us off the combo and I'm inclined to believe that this latter approach is a more effective strategy against us. I also don't like leaning on Blue cards against Merfolk since that puts me in more scenarios where I may have to fetch up an Island to play the card and and turn on Islandwalk. Subsequently I've mostly stopped bringing in Staticaster vs Merfolk but if you have a lot of dead cards to take out in the matchup and not that much to bring in then Staticaster might be OK.
I'm not really sure where the BTE fits in. You can play T1 Bird > T2 BTE + Saheeli > T3 Evo sac'ing BTE for Felidar. But you could also do T1 Bird > T2 Saheeli > T3 tick Saheeli down copying Bird + play any 2 drop + Evo sac'ing 2 drop for Feldiar.
@hakkai
I am currently undefeated against bloodbraid Jund standing 5-0 in tournament matches, I have only dropped 2 games against them. I cannot stress enough that my opponents were well versed in Jund and discussing the matchup afterwards with them we agreed that it felt favored my way, albeit not by a ton and although my win percentage is high all of my games were extremely close.
@maniospas
Zoo player here, and it pains me to say it, but I don't think BTE fits. By all means test it and let us know! Full disclosure, renegade rallier is one of my favorite magic cards, so I have some bias. Now, that said, above you pointed out you feel it only synergies with an active cobra. My playing experience has been quite the opposite, our strongest plan against fair decks (namely gbx) is recurring voice of resurgence. T2 or T3 Evoing voice into rallier or fetching to activate revolt and get back voice is backbreaking for their removal.
I have had a few instances where rallier has been underwhelming and I can see what you are saying, but a lot of it Is in the sequencing to maximize rallier value, even when you don't have one in hand. A good example is unless you are expecting blood moon or the like, never lead with your fetches. Although they do thin your deck, leading with a shock or other non fetch if you can still play your spells means revolt is turned on later, as well as it maximizes your cobras should you draw one. I win most of my games by "comboing" T2/T3 and dumping my hand without the actual combo kill.
My playing experience has been quite the opposite, our strongest plan against fair decks (namely gbx) is recurring voice of resurgence. T2 or T3 Evoing voice into rallier or fetching to activate revolt and get back voice is backbreaking for their removal.
I think most of us here are well aware of that interaction and its power level. The thing is, what if you don't draw Voice? Or what if it gets exiled (Path, ScOoze, Anger, Leyline)? Or stays alive/is mostly useless (Storm, Tron, Affinity)? I've had similar experiences as maniospas: Rallier can be insanely powerful if it works, in conjuction with Cobra especially, but the failure rate is high enough that I don't want to risk drawing multiples frequently. Even with just one in my current list, I've played my fair share of 3/2s for 3 with no effect or very little effect (returning the 5th+ land usually falls into that category).
I absolutely believe you guys know how powerful it is! A difference between us is my deck is built to maximize it and yours is not. I honestly have never had to cast a rallier without revolt, but I go out of my way to sequence so that doesn't happen. It's definitely just a 2/2 sometimes, but when that is the case we are racing and its the best thing we can evo. if they bring in grave hate we can just combo them, the 2 times i remember seeing rest in peace I comboed 1-2 turns later and it didn't matter. Our strength is fighting on whichever axis the opponent doesn't want/isn't prepared to. Real talk, i have 8 copies of voice and 8 copies of rallier with my 4 evolutions. When I want to see them its long games, so I naturally draw more cards, and I have yet to have an issue finding them. I have lost once to tron because I kept a slower value hand that didn't pan out, but that's my piloting error not voice's fault.
Also, I hope you don't mind, I gave you a shout out on Reddit because people were asking me how to fit seige rhino in my list. I said there was a user doing here with success and referenced you. I hope its not a problem! i normally ask 1st but my inbox is blowing up and I'm responding as fast as I can..
Hey everyone, i'm a fan of this deck and i will probably build it in the future. That said, i'm still torn on the 4 cobras 4 Raliers lists which had the best results lately - but seeing the points across this thread, i can really believe there are situations where they are not the best. And that is a indicator that probably 4 is too much. Only testing would say.
Anyways, i'm building a toolbox with all the possible juicy one ofs we can tutor. Can someone give me recomendations ?
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GWU Knightfall Spirit Company GWU
GWB Abzan Evolution GWB
Do you have a decklist?
4x Noble Hierarch
3x Birds of Paradise
4x Voice of Resurgence
1x Qasali Pridemage
2x Blade Splicer
1x Renegade Rallier
1x Vengeful Rebel
3x Siege Rhino
2x Felidar Guardian
1x Wingmate Roc
Other Spells 16
4x Oath of Nissa
4x Saheeli Rai
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3x Eldritch Evolution
1x Path to Exile
1x Collective Brutality
2x Lingering Souls
4x Windswept Heath
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Marsh Flats
1x Breeding Pool
1x Godless Shrine
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Stomping Ground
1x Temple Garden
2x Forest
2x Plains
1x Swamp
2x Horizon Canopy
1x Gavony Township
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Sin Collector
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Avalanche Riders
1x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1x Path to Exile
2x Fatal Push
1x Abrupt Decay
1x Collective Brutality
2x Stony Silence
2x Rest in Peace
No changes since last Saturday (2-3) and only one change in the sideboard compared to my first run with the deck (3-1).
Beat Jeskai Control 2-1 in round 1, the first two games were long and very back and forth, the third one was a quick bloodbath thanks to Gaddock Teeg stopping his sweeper. Cards like Rhino, Elspeth, Lingering Souls and Blade Splicer were fantastic in this matchup, he was constantly forced to answer almost every card I played, and had to keep the combo in mind too.
Round 2 I faced Bant Vizier Company, and we both mulliganed to 5 in the first game. I kept an anemic 4 lands + Pridemage and lost to his turn 4 combo, but game 2 my draw of 2 Voices + Elspeth somehow got there before he did anything truly relevant. Now game 3 was extremely interesting:
Forcing damage through the air with Elspeth and Roc was crucial in both games that I won, and the threat of combo totally warped his game plan in game 3. With him having all these Paths, I couldn't have actually won via combo, but I could constantly mess with his curve - he couldn't afford to cast Company until I attacked for lethal!
Match 3 was vs an unknown opponent, but I just figured out that he was on Ad Nauseam before killing him turn 3 on the play. Game 2 I drew Gaddock Teeg, Sin Collector, Reclamation Sage and the combo, so his single Thoughtseize was heavily outgunned and I demolished him.
In the final round I knew my opponent was on Ponza, which isn't an awful matchup, but can certainly go wrong if he draws well. He mulled to 5 in game 1 and after a fast start with some land destruction has no top end to follow it up, so he dies to some Voices and an Evo for Rhino. He proceeds to demonstrate what his deck can do when it fires on all cylinders in game 2 and I get crushed. In game 3 I mull to 5, he to 6, and my opener isn't exactly great, but he kept 1 land plus Utopia Sprawl and Arbor Elf, which gets punished by my Abrupt Decay on the Elf. I follow that up with Blade Splicer + Elspeth, and he fails to assemble enough mana for his expensive hand (he later showed me Stormbreath Drago + Inferno Titan). Topdecked Avalanche Riders to kill his enchanted land seal the deal. His Blood Moon did nothing this game. (Oath allowed me to cast Elspeth, and Avalanche Riders don't care.)
----
Overall I was once again happy with my list, and glad that I stuck with it after the mediocre result last time. I totally enjoy how the mix of cards like Rhino and Lingering Souls with the Saheeli combo keeps opponents on their toes. This deck pressures opponents really well, and in most matchups the combo is more backup and distraction than the actual plan A. The mana works, since there are enough cards like Blade Splicer, Lingering Souls and Felidar Guardian that are rather easy to cast. The sideboard feels balanced and powerful, Titanshift is the only important matchup I can think of that it doesn't adress well, but you can't have it all with just 15 cards.
---------------
Here's my own report from last night running Jace:
4x Noble Hierarch
2x Birds of Paradise
2x Lotus Cobra
1x Qasali Pridemage
4x Voice of Resurgence
2x Blade Splicer
2x Courser of Kruphix
1x Renegade Rallier
3x Felidar Guardian
1x Thragtusk
Spells (16)
4x Oath of Nissa
3x Path to Exile
3x Eldritch Evolution
4x Saheeli Rai
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Arid Mesa
1x Flooded Strand
1x Breeding Pool
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Stomping Ground
2x Forest
2x Plains
2x Horizon Canopy
1x Gavony Township
1x Path to Exile
1x Lightning Helix
1x Fiery Justice
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Spell Pierce
1x Unified Will
2x Stony Silence
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Tireless Tracker
G1 on the play I made a (questionable) keep of one land, Hierarch, Evo, Jace, and something else that seemed pretty decent if I drew one more land. And of course I didn't draw a land for 3+ turns. Fell behind, drew a Saheeli I couldn't cast (no red / oath), and got run over.
SB -2 Jace, -2 Evo // +1 Path, +1 Helix, +1 Justice, +1 Explosives
G2 my opponent leads with Vial and I had a pretty average hand. Luckily for me my opponent proceeded to draw his other three Vials, giving me a lot of breathing room to play around Cat Jesus and win with beats
G3 I keep a hand with both combo pieces, 2 lands, cobra, and path. Cobra gets Sunlance’d and he tries to stripmine me but I Path Cat Jesus in response and search up my basics. He starts creeping up on the board with a Resto blink but I combo out a turn later.
Games 2-1 // Overall 1-0
Match 2 - 8-Rack
G1 I get hit with Smallpox pretty early but I manage to stick a Voice followed by Blade Splicer, then Felidar blinking Splicer and Evo a Bird into Rallier returning Voice. He has a Shrieking Affliction down but it doesn’t matter.
SB -3 Path, -1 Saheeli, -1 Felidar, -2 Evo // +1 Explosives, +1 Spell Pierce, +1 Helix, +1 Thalia, +1 Ooze, +1 Rec Sage, +1 Tracker
G2 I start to out-pace his hand disruption and spot removal, building up a board, but just before I can go for lethal he wipes the board with Bontu’s Last Reckoning. I have a couple turns to draw more gas but come up blank while he plays Rack and Affliction to turn the corner and win.
G3 I keep an unimpressive 6er with some Oaths and Felidars. Raven’s Crime and Wrench Mind clear my entire hand within a couple turns. He plays double Affliction for the win.
Games 1-2 // Overall 1-1
Match 3 - Abzan Company
G1 I combo out with T2 Cobra into T3 Fetch, Evo, Saheeli.
SB -1 Courser, -2 Splicer, -2 Jace, -1 Thragtusk // +1 Path, +1 Helix, +1 Justice, +1 Explosives, +1 Staticaster, +1 Gaddock
G2 He calls a judge over at the beginning and they whisper some stuff. I keep a hand with Saheeli, Path, ramp. After pathing his Devoted Druid he gets the Finks combo together to gain 4 billion life. Next turn I combo out and swing with 400 trillion Felidars. In response he sacs the Finks 401 trillion times and my heart sinks a little bit as I realize that the judge call was asking how the infinite combos interacted. It then became a race to see who could disrupt the other person’s combo first. Naturally he Scry’d a Path to the top to hit Felidar. I draw another Felidar (:D), play it, and flip my top library card to reveal Lightning Helix. However, he’s stacked his library to complete the Druid combo on his next turn so the Helix is too late.
G3 I mull to a 4 with 2 fetches, Path, and Staticaster on the play. I Path his first druid, then draw into Fiery Justice, which is a 4-for-1 hitting Viscera Seer, Ballista, Vizier, and a Hierarch. He plays another Vizier and I flash in Staticaster to ping it out. He plays Devoted Druid and I play Saheeli, cloning Staticaster to shock the Druid out. He CoCos into his last two druids and I draw into Explosives, detonating it on 2 to blow them both up. Finally I draw into Felidar and combo out. Saheeli Control for the win!
Games 2-1 // Overall 2-1
Match 4 - BUG midrange
G1 I can’t remember what was in my hand but it was immediately picked down with Inquisition and Thoughtseize. He plays Ashiok on an empty board, ticks her up, and exiles one of my Felidars. I get a Voice on the board and he ticks Ashiok down to cast the Feldiar, flickers Ashiok with the Felidar, and then ticks her down to exile more of my creatures. He keeps my board and hand fairly clear and continues to take over the game with Ashiok. At one point I play Jace and have to -1 him to bounce a Goyf, and next turn brainstorm to shuffle away two lands and keep a Path (hits Goyf), Courser, and something else. Jace gets hit by Felidars and Goyf next turn and the brainstorm, while nice, doesn’t catch me up from behind.
SB -2 Hierarch, -1 Bird, -3 Evo, -1 Pridemage // +1 Path, +1 Thalia, +1 Tracker, +1 Spell Pierce, +1 Unified Will, +1 Ooze, +1 Explosives
G2 much like the first game except worse, lol. My hand and board are picked apart by Thoughtseize and Push, giving him room to land Ashiok again and start taking over. He also Surgical Extractions Saheeli and Snap Extracts Voice out of my deck juuuust to be sure. After he has two Goyfs, my courser, and my Rallier on the field with no combo out I scoop it up.
Games 0-2 // Overal 2-2
Jace -- I boarded out at least one copy for 3 of my 4 matchups and only got to cast him once. As Emzed mentioned, he does a lot of things that the deck wants -- brainstorms you into combo pieces while potentially shuffling away dead cards and acts as a potential alternate win-con on a stalled board -- but he won't do much to bring you back when you're behind and in my midrange matchup I was playing from behind pretty much immediately. I still think he could have a place somewhere in an optimal 75 but it's very meta dependent and I wouldn't encourage anyone to rush out and drop $100+ on him, lol. Perhaps the global meta will skew more towards interactive decks where he shines but I've still got plenty of aggro and combo to deal with at my shop.
Courser of Kruphix -- I didn't mention her much specifically in my match summary but she was just generally solid and did good work.
Blade Splicer -- performs very well against non-evasive aggro and control while buying you a bit of time vs midrange. For me it kind of competes with the Finks slot since they do some similar things, so you have to make sure you have enough lifegain packed into the rest of your 75 if you're expecting Burn.
Fiery Justice -- it's hard not to be impressed with a 4-for-1. All of our sweeper options are kinda hit or miss in this deck but for now I'm back to feeling that this is one of our best options as long as it's supported with enough instant speed spot removal to cover Justice's weakness of being sorcery speed.
Renegade Rallier -- I felt the low Rallier count (1x) rather keenly in the BUG matchup. This is one of the best cards for rescuing your game after you're hit with discard. If midrange continues to rise I'd like to find room for a second copy in the 75.
Gavony Township -- I had to mull away at least 2 sketchy hands with one fetch + one gavony and some potentially uncastable spells. I kept a Gavony + Fetch opener after mulling for another one of my matchups (why did this card show up in my openers so much?? haha) and regretted it due to sequencing troubles. It's a great tool for late game board stalls but I think the deck already has consistency issues and needs all the help it can get with mulligans. Perhaps I'm being colored too much by these rough mulls but I don't think I'll be running any more colorless utility lands in the deck for a while.
This marks the 3rd week I've gone 2-2, which isn’t terrible, but my combined game win rate of 47% is a little disheartening. I really appreciate the deck's interesting value lines and potential for fast combo starts. Every game is different and it keeps you thinking. However, as nice as it is to have the versatility of two different deck plans I don't feel like I have enough control over reliably taking the role I need for a given matchup. As a result the fast aggro / combo decks race better than us on average and the grindy midrange decks grind better than us on average. Sometimes we run hot with both our mulls and draws to hit early combos and relevant disruption. Other times I just feel like I'm durdling with incremental value while the opponent makes more powerful plays.
————EDIT————
I think the deck really needs some combination of additional card selection and broad interaction in the main:
More card selection - Oath and Evo can’t grab the powerful instants, sorceries, or enchantments that we often lean on to even out matchups, sometimes digging you right past what you need, which is a big part of the problem with selecting your role and reliably presenting relevant interaction. We also have a lot of random irrelevant one-ofs or cards that are really terrible in multiples (hand fulls of Felidars, Evos, Saheelis, Ralliers, or Dorks will all lose games) that we really want to cycle somehow.
Alternatively, we need more main deck disruption that synergizes with the deck’s core. Storm has Remand, Company has Tidehollow Sculler / Spell Queller, Grixis As Foretold has Izzet Charm / Lava Axe. We need more broadly interactive creatures and fewer narrow silver bullets. I’ve previously proposed Vendilion Clique but maybe there are some other good options.
Another option is to run more modal spells that can help us flex between roles. This is what I was aiming for with Glittering Wish. Collective Brutality and Izzet Charm are also nice examples of the effect I’m thinking of but they’re unfortunately mana intensive for us. This is where Jace or some other Planeswalkers could still hypothetically fit in.
Our 2-drop slot is still a little weak IMO. Something like UW for a 2/1 creature with Sleight of Hand on ETB would be perfect.
Usually Felidar generates some value, yeah. Occasionally you get some awkward openers that have Felidar and no blink target that you probably need to mull unless the rest of the curve is really good. It's not a great card so I could see shaving to 2 copies but I always want more than one so that my combo plan doesn't fold to a single Path and so that digging for Felidar with Oath has a higher success rate.
Yes, Pridemage has been solid. Between gobs of Merfolk, Humans, and Taxes all playing Vials, Affinity being present, decks with mainboard Blood Moon like Ponza and Red Prison, there are a lot of artifacts and enchantments that I would prefer to remove earlier than later, and against every other deck a 2/2 with Exalted isn't a bad floor. I also like having more 2-drops both to smooth our curve and Evo into Felidar. If you go all-in on 4x Cobra + 4x Rallier + 4x Evo then Acidic Slime can be reliably accessible by ~T3, so I can see how it would work for your list. Without maxing out on that Cobra-Rallier-Evo package I find Slime's interaction to be a little slow with a body that's irrelevant in most matchups except midrange.
Unified Will is an incredible spell against Big Mana decks, especially in the mid game if you can establish a board presence. However, against decks with lots of interaction or a fast combo you can find the spell getting inactivated when you need it most. For example against Storm I had my Bird Bolted and then I couldn't stop my opponent from going off next turn since they had Baral and I had no creatures. Spell Pierce is a slightly more reliable and mana efficient way to interact with decks that try to cast game-winning unfair spells in the early game, and occasionally it can accomplish some of the same things you want out of Unified Will, like countering Karns or Scapeshifts cast on curve. Running a split lets you bring in the more relevant counterspell if you only have space to swap one in, or bring in both against Big Mana when you really need it.
As a general rule of thumb I like having enough basics to cast most of my spells through Blood Moon. Previously I've ran Gearhulk, Sigarda, Lancers, or some other WW card that I wanted to support with two plains. Otherwise I agree that 3 Forests + 1 Plains better suits our ratio of mana costs.
That depends on what I'm playing against. Against evasive aggro decks it's like 80% combo and 20% beats. Against non-evasive aggro it's 50-50. Against Midrange or Control it's 80% beats and 20% combo. Against combo and Tron it's probably 60% combo and 40% beats. Since I have a lot of evasive aggro, combo, and Tron at my shop that's pushed me more towards combo wins -- over my last two FNM sessions 72% of my wins came from the combo and 28% from beats.
Wow, that's a surprising stat, even if you have a higher number of combo pieces. In my recent FNM I only actually ended the game via combo only once, and won seven games by disrupting and attacking my opponent the fair way. Of course, there were a few games where the combo influenced the game in a relevant way without successfully creating lots of cats, but for me it is really more of a plan B (that's either a complete surprise or a big scary threat for my opponents, depending on what they know).
If I got everything right from stu20's report, he achieved 3 of his 10 game wins via combo, and the rest was won by Thragtusk, Voices, Glorybringer, Gearhulk etc.
Those are nowhere near significant numbers, but it fits with my personal experiences with the deck: Relying totally on the combo isn't feasable, you need a very solid plan for the games where the combo doesn't work. Take the free wins from the combo, those are great, but they aren't enough. We can't achieve the speed and consistency of similar combo decks (Counters Company) because our combo is more expensive and assembling it is harder. We need to be a good midrange deck some of the time, and make sure that our combo pieces work well with that plan.
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Lotus Cobra
4 Renegade Rallier
4 Voice of Resurgance
2 Felidar Guardian
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Thalia's Lancers
1 Thragtusk
Spells(12)
4 Saheeli Rai
4 Eldritch Evolution
4 Oath of Nissa
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
2 Forest
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Plains
1 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
2 Path to Exile
2 Stony Silence
1 Avalanche Riders
1 Cataclysmic Gearhulk
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Reclamation Sage
As of now, I want some kind of removal card in the MD but I don't have any. I had Chupa in the Jace version but without the ability to Brainstorm it away I am less excited about that. I would prefer the creature synergize with Saheeli and Felidar. Sideboard is short two slots. I NEED something for Tron/Shift. Blood Moon seems like it would hurt me too much. That said, deck has felt VERY good.
BGStandard Green AggroGB
UWRGModern Saheeli CobraGRWU
UBRGLegacy StormGRBU
Wizards Certified Rules Advisor
Against Tron and Titanshift I think you want 2x Unified Will or Disdainful Stroke.
BGStandard Green AggroGB
UWRGModern Saheeli CobraGRWU
UBRGLegacy StormGRBU
Wizards Certified Rules Advisor
Blood Moon actually is a fine option, with all the mana creatures, 11 fetches and 4 basics you can make it work. With just one Forest and one Plains, you can cast most of your spells.
List mostly the same as before, only added two Aven Mindcensors to the sideboard for a Stony Silence and the Eidolon.
Beat UB Control, WB Aristocrats, RB Hollow One and GW Value Town. Also did some test games before the tournament vs Ponza with me winning all 3 games before sideboarding and ~4-2 after sideboarding. Once again, the combo was only responsible for ~25% of my game wins.
After testing about 5 or 6 matches with your list (not a big sample size i know, but i playtest the other versions A LOT and played the deck throughout its time in standard so I feel like i have a pretty decent feel for saheeli decks) I won every match and it honestly felt great. Some of the biggest takeaways:
The deck outside of the combo felt much much better than other versions ive tried. In other versions the shell that you build around is just kind of mopey on its own. Voice of resurgence is great in these shells, but cobra plus rallier just has to have too much go right for it to be good, and other shells just wouldnt be a decent deck by themselves without the combo. Here Youre essentially playing an abzan blink type deck with rhino as the centerpiece. SaffronOlive lately had pretty decent success with an unburial rites deck that just wanted to abuse and blink rhino and thats all it did..and it did pretty well! This shell is very reminiscent of that game plan and it makes the deck feel much more like it did back in standard when you were playing temur energy when you didnt have the combo. Major props for putting in the testing on rhino because I know I for one just simply didnt want to go to 5 colors..even though your only non-abzan colored card is Saheeli. Rhino really is simply the best 4 drop for this shell. Also as weird as this sounds, it doesnt seem to stress the mana as much as say pia and kiran nalaar was in other versions. Youre essentially playing abzan that splashes saheeli (which sounds really weird but oath of nissa and 7 dorks makes it possible) as opposed to bant red where pia or glorybringer can really strain things. I was always hesitant to try this version because of the mana, but if you play it like an abzan deck that incidentally gets to play saheeli because of oath and dorks, you should be fine. Also i took out the gavony township from your list because i was scared of mana issues at first, but might try to put it back in. We’ll see. Will also continue to tune the sideboard for whatever meta im considering.
Gonna try and take this to my LGS which is fairly competitive when I have the chance and will report back.
Oh, just for reference my matches were against jund traverse shadow, mono blue taking turns with jace, sultai deaths shadow, a weird mono green stompy deck, blue red jace moon, and something else that im forgetting right now.
Tl;dr rhino is perfect for the saheeli/felidar shell and the mana isnt as bad as youd think believe it or not.
Losses
Blue Moon Jace 1-2 Could have won G3 but my inexperience got the best of me and I was outplayed convincingly as well. I felt favored.
Ironworks combo 0-2 Mulled into oblivion and conceded G1 as I knew his deck and he didnt know mine. G2 I had the T4 kill and he killed me T3.
Mono G Tron 1-2 He topdecked tron his last turn alive to play ugin and lock me out of the game. My hands were subpar and I like the tron matchup overall.
Infect 1-2 Punished for my lack of interaction here, still almost won in 3. Definitely a matchup I will be teching for in the future as it felt bad.
As Foretold Goryo's 1-2 He drew well and this deck looked absolutely unstoppable. I killed him on the play and was his only game loss of the night.
Wins
Bogles 2 Matches 4-0 Honestly this feels like an autowin unless they main suppression field.
Bloodbraid Jund 2 Matches 4-1 I have just grinded better, both of these players are solid and grind the archetype. I feel favored and only change 1 card SB.
U/W Jace 2-0 Recurred Voice a bunch, and it didnt feel close either game. He respected the combo until my 2/2's killed him.
GBx Splashing for 2 MD Lingering Souls 2-1 Last round Saturday, both my opponent and I misplayed. I got there as he made the bigger mistakes.
Mono G Tron 2-0 Comboed him T2 both games. Was gross.
Skred Red 2-1 Super grindy and interesting matchup. I did not feel favored here but managed to grind out a win.
8 Whack 2-0 Paired with my gf for this one. I had good hands and killed he before dying T4 both games.
G/R HollowVine 2-0 My roomate was on my side deck here, he led with a hollow one T1 both games, but combo got him.
R/B Control burn Homebrew 2-0 Opponents 1st match of his 1st modern tournament. Nice guy but his deck was not ready to handle the modern gauntlet.
One Drop Zoo (Not Revolt) 2-1 Turns out nacatl into a flurry of burn spells is dece. Both my games I won at less then 3 life and faded a draw step.
That is one match short on the wins, cant for the life of me remember who my 5th round opponent was or their deck. Ah, well. That's fine. Here is my current list. The flex spots are Sigarda, pridemage and witness. They changed for every tournament between Sideboard and main. My Sb is in flux but I'll post it if there is interest and I can answer any questions in depth about matchups I have played. The one thing I will say is I am winning around 70% of my games with combo but that may just be my playstyle.
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Forest
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Stomping Ground
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Breeding Pool
1 Sacred Foundry
4 Wooded Foothill
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Noble Hierarch
4 Lotus Cobra
4 Voice of Resurgence
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 Renegade Rallier
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
4 Felidar Guardian
1 Sigarda, Heron's Grace
1 Sun Titan
4 Oath of Nissa
Planeswalker
4 Saheeli Rai
Sorcery
4 Eldritch Evolution
No changes since Wednesday, and the deck was still good, but I made some costly mistakes. I beat Affinity and Grixis Control pretty handily, and had Druid Company on the ropes after winning game 1. However, I failed to draw anything relevant to close out game 2 after a good start, and then he combo-killed me through Gaddock Teeg plus removal for the first two Devoted Druids. Being so close to the win lead to me keeping a highly questionable hand in game 3 (too few lands) and losing the turn before I could combo. I just got baited by the great spells in my hand, but I really should have mulliganed.
The final match was against UR Moon with Thing in the Ice. Game 1 I assembled a board state of Rhino plus Roc and his buddy, which felt like a safe bet against a deck without Path, Terminate or Supreme Verdict. Roast on Rhino, Thing in the Ice, 3 Opts and a Serum Visions later he had stabilized at 1 life, and I failed to draw another Rhino, Saheeli or Brutality to finish him. The flipped Awoken Horror got help from Jace and killed me quickly.
After that first game, I should have had more respect for Thing in the Ice, but I decided to put only two removals in my deck for game 2 and got punished when he played Things on turn 2 and 3. I still came close to winning after he flipped them both, but Cryptic to counter my Evo and tap all my blockers put an end to that. Having a few more answers to those 7/8s would probably have made my life a lot easier, but that was my own choice.
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Lotus Cobra
4 Voice of Resurgence
2 Coiling Oracle
1 Wall of Omens
4 Renegade Rallier
4 Felidar Guardian
1 Ravenous Chupacabra
1 Thalia's Lancers
1 Acidic Slime
1 Sigarda, Heron's Grace
Spells
4 Oath of Nissa
4 Saheeli Rai
4 Eldritch Evolution
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Temple Garden
1 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Stomping Ground
1 Sacred Foundry
3 Forest
1 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Path to Exile
2 Stony Silence
1 Unified Will
1 Disdainful Stroke
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Lone Missionary
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Chameleon Colossus
1 Avalanche Riders
1 Cataclysmic Gearhulk
2-0 vs Ponza. Got a bit lucky that's his draws didn't cooperate G1. G2 I went T3 second cobra, rallier, Saheeli copy rallier, avalanche riders your Utopia'd land.
2-0 vs Burn. Sigarda, end of story. She also insulates the combo from bolt which can be nice.
1-1-1 vs BBE Jund. Casual modern, so we were both taking our time thinking our turns through, and as a result neither of us could finish in turns. Great match, really intricate, lots of play to it. Which is great, as it gives me plenty of opportunity to screw up and get the wrong thing with Evo
1-1 vs Amulet. Another super intricate match. Won G1. G2, on T3 of turns, he swings with 18 trample power, me at 6 with Saheeli in play. Last turn I scried Evo to the top. I chump with everything except an Oracle to survive at 1, but postcombat Ruric Thar locks me out.
Changes for Friday:
MD
-1 Wall of Omens
+1 Eternal Witness
SB
-1 Kataki
+1 Tireless Tracker
0-2 vs Burn. Steamrolled. Having to keep shaky hands, no Sigarda, got burned.
2-0 vs Affinity. G1 he had a slow draw with no payoffs and only Inkmoth beats. G2 he mulls to five and I have all the SB action in the world.
2-1 vs Gr Tron, no Karns due to budget. G1 I keep a slow midrange hand and Ugin seals the deal. G2 Stony turns off 2 relics and 2 eggs. G3 was very tight. I went to copy a Cobra with 2 Felidar in hand, threatening to make 8 mana, this plays around 1 dismember no matter what he does, which he had.
2-1 vs Storm. G1 she goes off T3, not able to disrupt with Chup or Sigarda. Postboard is a lot better naturally. We had 2 Eidolon games, backed up by some paths and countermagic. She was never able to remove Eidolon.
Deck feels solid, fun as always
SCG Modern IQ Norman (1st)
SCG Modern Open Indy (32nd)
It seems like the 4/4/4 configuration of dorks/cobra/rallier is the consensus between these builds.
The winning list from the IQ also has the spicy 1-of chupacabra with no black sources
I was expecting JTMS to make some headway in these decks but it seems a tuned build has not been found yet (although it seems to be performing alright in Hoogland's latest KikiChord streams).
Unfortunately I have not had time to play the deck since the unbannings, but what has everyone's experiences been playing AGAINST BBE and JTMS? (specifically BBE Jund as it has been on a huge upswing lately)
In theory Engineered Explosives and Fiery Justice should be really good against them but between mainboarded Cursecatchers + Spell Pierces and SB Negates actually resolving your sweepers at the right moment can be tricky, and we don't have any way to filter up or tutor for spell-based sweepers so overall it's not the most consistent defense. Sometimes you land a sweeper and its a blow-out. I've also had a few games where I've stuck Engineered Explosives T2 that they played around with a 1-drop, 2-drop, and 3-drop on board, keeping the rest of their 2-drops in hand. If you're going to play EE I'd maybe hold it back so that they play into it a bit more before you deploy it and immediately crack it. However, deploying it later after they've set up more does run the risk of playing EE into an open Negate. Fiery Justice can be a bit more reliable and mana efficient against them, though it favors comboing rather than trying to race due to the life gain. I think this is okay since racing isn't a great approach anyways as I've mentioned.
Gearhulk is a really welcome sight and your best card in the matchup next to Path as long as you've got some acceleration to get it out by T4. I've got 4 Merfolk players at my shop so I've even thought about running 2x Gearhulks in the side, lol. If you're in black then Vengeful Rebel and Abrupt Decay are game-winning cards -- cloning / blinking Rebel can make racing feasible and Decay can hit all of their most threatening cards, Lords / Vial / Seas, without getting stopped by Curse Catcher or Spell Pierce. In Red Abrade serves as a passable poor-man's Abrupt Decay, and Lightning Helix can help stabilize a bit as well. Worship can be good if they're not running too many copies of Vapor Snag or Echoing Truth. . My most successful plays usually involved getting Saheeli down after Felidar -- T1 Bird > T2 Removal > T3 Felidar > T4 Saheeli. This matchup also rewards running more copies of Felidar Guardian rather than just 1x Felidar + 4x Evo since Evo can be taxed by Cursecatcher and hit by their counterspells.
You've probably noticed a theme here: Negate answers our most important cards in the matchup: removal, Evo, and Saheeli. If they mull to a reasonably aggressive hand with Negate and are familiar with the matchup / play smartly they will probably win. If you're running a typical 4c list -- especially one with 4x Evo and 1x Felidar -- I honestly don't think there's much you can do to make things consistently favorable without really warping your 75. If you're on a 5c or psuedo-abzan midrange plan like Emzed I think you can stand a decent chance if your post-board 60 looks something like this:
4x Windswept Heath
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Marsh Flats
1x Breeding Pool
1x Godless Shrine
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Stomping Ground
1x Temple Garden
2x Forest
2x Plains
1x Swamp
2x Horizon Canopy
1x Gavony Township
7-8x Ramp creatures
3-4x Voice of Resurgence
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Reclamation Sage
2x Blade Splicer
2x Vengeful Rebel
3x Felidar Guardian
1x Cataclysmic Gearhulk
Spells (17)
3x Path / Push
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Explosives / Justice
4x Oath of Nissa
4x Saheeli Rai
3x Eldritch Evolution
4 Birds / 4 Cobra / 4 Rallier
T3 combo requires T1 Birds (4 copies) or T2 Cobra (4 copies) with a fetch land (11 copies).
4 Hierarch / 3 Birds / 4 BTE
T3 combo requires T1 dork (7 copies)
I'm not really sure where the BTE fits in. You can play T1 Bird > T2 BTE + Saheeli > T3 Evo sac'ing BTE for Felidar. But you could also do T1 Bird > T2 Saheeli > T3 tick Saheeli down copying Bird + play any 2 drop + Evo sac'ing 2 drop for Feldiar.
What am I overlooking here?
I am currently undefeated against bloodbraid Jund standing 5-0 in tournament matches, I have only dropped 2 games against them. I cannot stress enough that my opponents were well versed in Jund and discussing the matchup afterwards with them we agreed that it felt favored my way, albeit not by a ton and although my win percentage is high all of my games were extremely close.
@maniospas
Zoo player here, and it pains me to say it, but I don't think BTE fits. By all means test it and let us know! Full disclosure, renegade rallier is one of my favorite magic cards, so I have some bias. Now, that said, above you pointed out you feel it only synergies with an active cobra. My playing experience has been quite the opposite, our strongest plan against fair decks (namely gbx) is recurring voice of resurgence. T2 or T3 Evoing voice into rallier or fetching to activate revolt and get back voice is backbreaking for their removal.
I have had a few instances where rallier has been underwhelming and I can see what you are saying, but a lot of it Is in the sequencing to maximize rallier value, even when you don't have one in hand. A good example is unless you are expecting blood moon or the like, never lead with your fetches. Although they do thin your deck, leading with a shock or other non fetch if you can still play your spells means revolt is turned on later, as well as it maximizes your cobras should you draw one. I win most of my games by "comboing" T2/T3 and dumping my hand without the actual combo kill.
Edit: mobile is hard
I think most of us here are well aware of that interaction and its power level. The thing is, what if you don't draw Voice? Or what if it gets exiled (Path, ScOoze, Anger, Leyline)? Or stays alive/is mostly useless (Storm, Tron, Affinity)? I've had similar experiences as maniospas: Rallier can be insanely powerful if it works, in conjuction with Cobra especially, but the failure rate is high enough that I don't want to risk drawing multiples frequently. Even with just one in my current list, I've played my fair share of 3/2s for 3 with no effect or very little effect (returning the 5th+ land usually falls into that category).
Also, I hope you don't mind, I gave you a shout out on Reddit because people were asking me how to fit seige rhino in my list. I said there was a user doing here with success and referenced you. I hope its not a problem! i normally ask 1st but my inbox is blowing up and I'm responding as fast as I can..
Anyways, i'm building a toolbox with all the possible juicy one ofs we can tutor. Can someone give me recomendations ?
RBW Mardu Pyro
X Eldrazi
Pauper:
X Affinity
G Stompy