MTG Salvation

Yeah that was the most unlucky game I've ever had. Everything else was set up perfectly to finish going off but the 6 lands on top was super painful.

I tried a mix of the Saffron and CFB list with your Sultai one, mainly adding in 3 Hedron Archives, a Planar Portal, and a Ballista. Ballista was lack luster as using it for value wasn't always possible since the opponent would have removal in hand game 1, and when comboing off, it was irrelevant since Tezz is usually a cleaner and faster kill.

Planar Portal was so so and took the place of an atlas. I don't think I ever wished it was an Atlas but at the same time I never wished an Atlas was it.

Hedron Archive was great. The extra ramp was occassionally meaningful, but being able to pitch if for 2 cards really helped in the grindy games. Coupled with Academy Ruins, I was slowly digging through the deck without having to blow Gambits.

Yep, I remember the reddit post and I've been interested since then but acquiring the Opals always held me back. I was able to get a nice trade deal on them a few weeks back and I've been having a blast. Except against E Tron. On MTGO for me they seem to always have both their Ratchet Bombs in every starting 7.

I've also been playing UW Tron recently, and I had the idea last night to combine the two. Instead of relying on Tron for mana we have the factory, which conviently can also power our Gifts and even Norn herself earlier. Thirst is better since we have more artifacts we can pitch, and Dispatch should almost always be active so it's a better Path. Tron uses land slots though while the factory takes up spell slots.

This does make the Tron deck weaker to artifact hate and other disruption, and I'm not sure if it makes the bad matchups good, but it seems interesting.

It will end in disaster I'm sure.

As expected it was a disaster, do not recommend. Going back to Sultai.

Seems like a good deck for The Immortal Sun. Shuts down the problem planeswalkers like Karn while also ramping and howling mineing you. Put a needle on OStone in the Tron matchup and it should be great. With the ability to cast it turn 2 you can go off quickly.

Hi there DomiO,
Have you tested the list yet and if yes, how did it work for you?

There are some things which come to my mind when I see your list, your finisher targets and you have only 1 way with seal of Primordium to kill opposing leyline of Sanctity. If you are playing blue some more Whir of invention seem good, also 4 Inventors' Fair may be too much. I don't see Ancient stirrings in here which is just too good to play in the deck, grabs all artifacts, lands and Emrakul, the Aeon's Torn.
I haven't played your deck and all the suggestions are my personal opinion.

Quote from DomiO »

Hi Guys,

im currently testing this list on XMage.

<Deck>

What do you guys think about it? Any suggestions?

- You don't really have a good way to draw cards once your engine is going. Hedron Archive is a one-shot (have you tried Courier's Capsule, it's just more efficient?), and Magnifying Glass is *very* conditional. Planar Portal is nice, but you have to already be doing things before it's any good. Honestly, you should try at least some Otherworld Atlass or some Temple Bells to see how you feel about it. You're going to be activating them most often on your opponent's end step, so the only thing you are really worried about giving them most games is straight permission.

- Tezzeret's Gambit seems fun, but it's really inefficient. The proliferate only benefits you if one of your engines is already online, otherwise it's draw 2 for 4. Thirst for Knowledge was strictly better in testing for me, and I don't run either in my list anymore, because...

- Ancient Stirrings may be one of the most powerful cards in Modern today. It's going to be better than Serum Visions in most cases, since it looks deeper and you have control over the card you are getting now, as opposed to setting up later.

- You're going to flood out on Blue Sun's Zeniths. The card costs 4 to draw 1. I love it for the reasons you listed, but I only run 2 between the main and the board. I like Whir of Invention, but again, it still costs UUU at all times, so it's harder to cast if you have a lot of colorless sources.

Quote from DomiO »

I have the most problems with discard.

That's fair, Discard is one of the 'normal' methods of interaction in Modern that affects us - Paths and Bolts and Slips don't do much. I run 3 Leyline of Sanctitys in the board alongside 2 Padeem, Consul of Innovations. Also, the Stirrings are a great way to protect against discard as well, because they are more likely to be able to replace what gets taken than Gambit or Visions.

FYI, I *much* prefer the combo-oriented build to the Midrange/Wildfire/Sultai/Whatever that seems to be more popular for discussion, as you are less likely to run into random midrange creatures you can't do anything about (oh hey there Tasigur!) and you aren't reliant on Death's Shadows blanking on your Bridges. But YMMV, as most of the people in this thread are more concerned with doing Cool Things than winning more games than they lose.

This has probably been asked, but any consideration for Colition relic as a few of to compliment the fast Mana y'all make?
Reason I'm asking is let's say you can play it early. Add a counter then proliferate to jump you up 2 mana. Also in games where you have node but no chalice or copia you could put the extra counters on it to make Mana for whir.

Quote from megatog201 »

This has probably been asked, but any consideration for Colition relic as a few of to compliment the fast Mana y'all make?
Reason I'm asking is let's say you can play it early. Add a counter then proliferate to jump you up 2 mana. Also in games where you have node but no chalice or copia you could put the extra counters on it to make Mana for whir.

-The most popular card to proliferate is Gambit, and it comes online way after Relic mana would be useful.

-The counters on Relic are only useful once, and you have to start your main phase with them on it.

Yes. And your point? I'm failing to see how not having this as a worse Mana rock is better than no having them at all.

@Megatog
The thing with Coalition relic is, that we want to have our rocks available at all time and get more than 1 mana out of it every turn and not waste charge counters on it every turn. I would rather play Chromatic Lantern, because it provides more utility.

@Ellomdian
Also I have to disagree about Tezzeret's Gambit the card is most of the time played for 3 and 2 life which is a big difference manawise and the proliferate effect is really good. What are you playing instead? Maybe you could post your combo oriented build, I would be interested.

Quote from Heskatet »

Maybe you could post your combo oriented build, I would be interested.

Thanks for your list, but could you explain what makes your combo oriented list superior to the other lists which try to do cool things instead of winning? You die even more to Stony Silence you have no other chance than be faster than they hit their stony silence or draw 1of your 4 sideboard outs to fight Stony Silence? The decks which try to do cool things have other win options than the combo out. (Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas for example)

I feel like a lot of these decks are unfocused. You have the best cantrip in stirrings and best card draw in thoughtcast available to you. Why not go hard on comboing them.



Being fast and consistent is rewarded in Modern. Better to do one thing well then a couple things medium. You could replace either win con with basically any other big mana win con. Banefire, Grapeshot, Blue Sun's Zenith, Maga, Traitor to Mortals etc.

The deck at its core is High Tide or Heartbeat.

Quote from Earthbound21 »

I feel like a lot of these decks are unfocused. You have the best cantrip in stirrings and best card draw in thoughtcast available to you. Why not go hard on comboing them.

...

The deck at its core is High Tide or Heartbeat.

I am certainly inclined to agree with you - see my list above. IME, all-in on Paradox Engine is rough, which is why I run the Reversals/Scepters. Between that and the keys, I can reasonably expect to go off without an Engine some games. The Reservoir is there largely as a main-deck answer to burn and hyper aggro strategies that also represents a wincon in ~25% of games. Most of the time you're just Stroking them or casting a Walking Fireball.

I just don't like Thoughtcast. I rarely have problems drawing cards between the Bells, Atlases, Stirrings, and Zenith, and the repeatable effects represent the same level of card advantage the turn before you go off (EoT, Untap, Do it again.)


But I digress, I've been playing Lantern more than anything lately, because it's better in a room filled with a bunch of stupid Titanshift decks. And I'm questioning if a format that hinges on whether the Tron players natural it or not is going to be much fun moving forward....

Quote from ellomdian »

Quote from Earthbound21 »

I feel like a lot of these decks are unfocused. You have the best cantrip in stirrings and best card draw in thoughtcast available to you. Why not go hard on comboing them.

...

The deck at its core is High Tide or Heartbeat.

I am certainly inclined to agree with you - see my list above. IME, all-in on Paradox Engine is rough, which is why I run the Reversals/Scepters. Between that and the keys, I can reasonably expect to go off without an Engine some games. The Reservoir is there largely as a main-deck answer to burn and hyper aggro strategies that also represents a wincon in ~25% of games. Most of the time you're just Stroking them or casting a Walking Fireball.

I just don't like Thoughtcast. I rarely have problems drawing cards between the Bells, Atlases, Stirrings, and Zenith, and the repeatable effects represent the same level of card advantage the turn before you go off (EoT, Untap, Do it again.)

Thoughtcast costs one mana. Its much better than the 4 mana artifact you're playing. You shouldn't need Reversal at all with 8 Paradox Engines. Reservoir is shut down by one Skullcrack.

I will probably write something larger on Friday, but I still have some things to do until then. But just some quick points on the all-in combo version, although the versions of ellomdian and Earthbound 21 are pretty close to my list:

• Thoughtcast costs one mana, when it could cost arbitrarily much, and costs prohibitively high (meaning 2 and 3) mana, when you'd want it. Meaning: Once you have unlocked the combo, you will win anyway. But during your setup phase (turns 1 to 3) you don't always have enough artifacts to profitably cast it.
• Blue Sun's Zenith is most likely the only win-con that should be played with exactly 2 copies. Emrakul, Walking Balista and everything else is just worse. Meaning: They don't do anything in the critical phase of having established the combo, but not having enough cards in hand/counters on Otherworld Atlas yet. Also, Blue Sun's Zenith can refill your by discard depleted hand. And please let them bring in Leyline as a sideboard plan. We just cast it repeatedly for zero on us and let them draw via Temple Bell/Otherworld Atlas.
• Glint-Nest Crane looks slow, but stalls in many games the deciding extra turn against pressure. I mean, it is freaking Impulse with legs. 3 copies are in the deck without discussion, but 4 is probably correct.

Quote from Ratwohl »

<Sane Discussion>

Based on your understanding of the function of Thoughtcast (seriously people, we aren't Qumulox Affinity here...) I look forward to further discussion. I like the idea of Crane as a chump, a lot. And yeah, Atlas is obscenely strong, as are most symmetrical effects.

I still like Ballista for wins based on generating non-deterministic cycles of mana - looping BSZ requires the Engine, while I can Fireball people with a few Dramatic Reversal or Voltaic Key steps.

Looking forward to trying something new though. Lantern is strong, but it's way less fun than this thing.

Once again, I have to ask: What exactly do you guys think makes the "all in combo version" superior to the so called "unfocused decks"?


I mean you have 2 wincons which are both reliant on your artifacts to work, what do you do against Stony Silence? You set up your board till you get a sideboard card to destroy silence (if you are still alive then,dependent on what your opponent plays) and then go off. So far so good, but what is the deal to have other wincons in the board which are not that dependant on the combo finish? Like mentioned before, Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas is a monster and does everything this deck wants. If you are under stony silence just turn your useless artifacts into 5/5 and turn them sideways or use his ultimate for the win or just get card advantage...Chandra, Torch of Defiance is similar in red. What's wrong with that?

Also Wildfire and Blood Moon or Death Cloud (played in the different versions) just steal games, they give you another angle of attack to play your game. Why is that unfocused?
Don't get me wrong, in 3/4 of my won games I win with the combo finish and I love it and it happens fast, but I just don't want to scoop to stony silence when I don't have an immediate answer to it.

As I see it atm, you have 2 possible ways to win game 2/3: Be faster or draw 4 out of 60 cards to fight Stony Silence. Because I am not afraid of Leyline of Sanctity, Stony silence wrecks you if you don't have an answer and you will face more than enough decks which play it, because it's one of the most played hate cards in modern.

Quote from Earthbound21 »

You shouldn't need Reversal at all with 8 Paradox Engines.

I just saw this part re-reading the discussion. Are you claiming that being able to being able to cast Fabricate for an Engine is just like having another 4 Engines in the context of this deck? Because you are either spending 8 mana at sorcery speed, or you're breaking it up over 2 turns making it susceptible to traditional disruption. Unless you are also playing Tron, I'm not entirely sure how you are getting 8 free mana T3/T4 without using Reversal.

Quote from Heskatet »

Stony SilenceStony SilenceStony SilenceStony SilenceStony Silence

I play Dredge occasionally in Vintage and Legacy. I've been on both sides of Blood Moon and CotV:1 in Legacy. I'm *extremely* familiar with playing a deck that effectively loses on the spot to a popular sideboard card. I run as many Enchantment kill cards in my SB as they can run Stony's because I recognize that it exists, but they have to draw it, play it, and win before I can deal with it.

Basing the construction and execution of your main deck on the existence of a potential SB card from your opponent is shaving potential advantage out of fear. I feel that the combo-centric builds of the deck are both more reliable against the makeup of the field and more explosive in general. You could easily build UR storm to be less reliant on creatures that die to Lightning bolt, yet that doesn't seem to be a terribly popular option.


I personally have very little interest in trying to resolve a Death Cloud or Wildfire using the core engine of the deck, because I would much rather satisfy a State-Based Effect that wins me the game the turn I go off, rather than build some appreciable advantage and say 'Go.'

Back around New Year 2017 Paradox Engine got spoiled. The card looked nothing like modern day magic, but something truly broken out of Magic's past. Something like Dream Halls. It was probably conceived as a tribute card to engine decks like High Tide and the Academy deck, just like Johnnies and Spikes got their respective Un-cards. It reminded me the most of Tolarian Academy, since unlike High Tide and Heartbeat of Spring Paradox Engine rewards you for playing just plainly good cards. And with Mox Opal, Ancient Stirrings and Gitaxian Probe the deck seemed to be great. Then GitProbe got banned. Still the deck seemed like a blast.

This is what the deck looked like in April '17:


The deck didn't have the charge counter stuff in it, but was doing okay and was extremely fun to play. The charge counters were omitted for some reasons: First of, Astral Cornucopia and Surge Node are bad cards. And I didn't play Coretapper to make removal less attractive, so the transformational sideboard would have no resistance. This, of course, made Astral Cornucopia and Surge Node indeed really bad, but I hadn't really realized this.
So what are the problems with this list? Temple Bell sucks at digging up spells, but I will discuss this a bit more later. Also, Simic Signet is way too slow. The deck also just folds against Eldrazi'n'Taxes or something similar. But this is only natural: They are built to beat us.

Sadly, from this point on I had no chance to play the deck anymore, since I had to do many things for my Master's degree. But I continued to goldfish the deck over and over again. I must have played hundreds of repetitions as a cigarette break of sorts. This is why my current list doesn't metagame (well, a bit I guess). Consequently, it doesn't have a sideboard plan. And just as Heskatet mentioned, it just doesn't beat Stony Silence. But to answer his question: I have a deep love for Tolarian Academy and if I have a chance to play something in an affordable format (read: not Vintage), then I will play it. Period. Secondly, I have tried some of the list with Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas and Death Cloud and they didn't convince me. You have no way for digging for either of them, it forces you into an unhealthy color commitment and playing even a turn 3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas just doesn't seem game winning. I will admit that, since I haven't played them in real life, I could very well be wrong here. But Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas as a sideboard plan is a nice idea, although again one would have to check the mana base.

So, here is my current list. It certainly isn't perfect, but I will explain my card choices:


The deck has turn 4 as the critical turn, you should be by then going off or, at least, be set up to win next turn, although this might be too late for Modern. Turn 3 kills are possible and happen regularly. Turn 2 kills can happen and involve a nut draw of Darksteel Citadel, colored land, Coretapper, Astral Cornucopia or Everflowing Chalice, Mox Opal, Paradox Engine, Serum Visions or Ancient Stirrings, and finding on turn 2 Otherworld Atlas and another spell.

Usually, there are four phases (sometimes parallel) until going off:
Setting-up: This happens mostly turn 1 to 2, and continues in turn 3. Play lands and rocks, get charge counters on them.
Digging: You need Paradox Engine and, at some point, Otherworld Atlas. Thus it is of priority to find PE (PE: Paradox Engine), but you also want to find Coretapper for example. Under this phase, scenarios with an active Atlas and no PE can be subsumed.
The critical phase: Unlike two card combos, we don't automatically win with PE and Otherworld Atlas on the table. For example, we have PE and Otherworld Atlas, but Atlas has no counters. We need to trigger PE a few times to tap Atlas for counters and then draw. (This is the only scenario, where Temple Bell beats Atlas (sans Solemnity and the like).) In this case are cheap digging spells and zero mana spells invaluable. Another scenario: We have PE and tons of mana already by burning through multiple Mox Opals together with an active Everflowing Chalice with 2 counters. In this scenario is Blue Sun's Zenith an excellent out, which can in a way substitute an Atlas.
Going-off: We have PE and Atlas with at least three counters and generate at least 2 mana for each PE trigger, at least one of them colored. Congratulations, you have (most likely) won.

Now for the discussion of cards (one should keep in mind that I'm talking about a deck without Death Cloud/Wildfire, so the discussion below may not apply to your deck):

• The Dice Factory part should be clear. One could maybe try it with 3 Astral Cornucopia, but I'm not convinced this is a good idea.
• Mox Opal is the best card of the deck and makes starts possible that are just absurd. Yes, it is legendary, but running anything fewer than 4 is just bad. Without it the deck as whole would probably be unplayable.
• Paradox Engine is truly the Engine of the deck. Without it you fail. Yes, it costs 5 mana and, yes, it is legendary, but once it is on the battlefield it fundamentally changes how the game works. As explained in the going off phase, the deck can from this point on even carry itself a bit without Atlas.
• Otherworld Atlas draws symmetrically, so one should try to not give the opponent more chances on outs than needed. It is therefore often correct to not max them out on counters (except for an opposing Leyline), but leave them at a handy 5 to 7 counters. Almost always superior to Temple Bell. Temple Bell costs less and draws immediately, but at two counters Atlas catches up in efficiency really fast (1: TE 1, Atlas 1c, 0; 2: TE 2, Atlas 2c, 0; 3: TE 3, Atlas 2c, 2; 4: TE 4, Atlas 2c, 2). Atlas also draws better through large amounts of lands on top, thus chains spells more efficiently. Because of this, it is almost always correct to sac Coretapper (even without summoning sickness) for counters on Atlas. Also, Atlas plays more efficiently, not having to tap them 40+ times in a match. Another bonus is the immunity against Inquisition of Kozilek.
• Ancient Stirrings is the reason to not be mono-blue. Arguably the best dig spell in Modern, it is way to efficient for us to pass on. The full playset is played without discussion.
• Serum Visions is an okay card. It costs only one mana, which is important for the critical phase, and sets up the draws on turn one.
• Glint-Nest Crane costs two mana and whiffs sometimes, but it digs 4 deep and provides a body against pressure. Also every key spell is artifact, so the restriction is of less importance than in most decks.
• Blue Sun's Zenith has in contrast to most kill spells the added bonus of doing something outside the combo. Alternatives are Elixir of Immortality (gains life against aggression, increases card quality in the library, ups the artifact count for Mox Opal, Inventors' Fair, and Glint-Nest Crane) and Noxious Revival (costs zero mana and helps to chain spells into each other). Efficieny-wise I'm torn between 2 BSZ or 1 BSZ and 1 Revival. Two kill conditions are needed in this deck to protect against discard, which is a sad experience with the old version.
• The flex slots help with winning in the going-off phase (bounce hate or counter a counter spell or trick), while not being dead draws in the early stages of the game. Repeal has the added bonus of providing tricks with Mox Opal, Surge Node, and Glint-Nest Crane.
• Botanical Sanctum, Darksteel Citadel, and Yavimaya Coast probably need no explanation.
• Island for Ghost Quarter reasons. Islands are better than forests, simply be having much more blue symbols than four single green ones.
• Inventors' Fair offers a bit of life gain against aggression, but more importantly can tutor for PE and Atlas as a land. Two copies are justifiable, but maybe one is correct (because of being legendary). Taps only for colorless as a downside.

The sad part is that the dice factory approach, while speeding up things considerably, takes too much space for a transformational sideboard.

As an interesting side note, except for Stony Silence and the occasional Flickerwisp and Ancient Grudge on a charged up rock, we can beat sometimes hate cards, even though it is difficult.

• Against an Eidolon of the Great Revel one can fight via an Atlas with enough charge counters and then triggering via PE and other copies of Atlas.
• Ethersworn Canonist doesn't do that much. It can be annoying to be restricted to only one can-trip per turn, but we have enough artifacts to still chain spells for PE trigger.
• Leyline of Sanctity is simply a mistake against us. I think, one should even provoke this by always killing via lethal BSZ rather than the reshuffle and Atlas for one approach. This also gives them fewer chances on outs.
• Chalice of the Void is realistically cast for X=0,1,2. X=2 is the most ineffective, since it gets only the most expensive dig spell and Coretapper. And Coretapper should hopefully be done with its work at this point. X=1 blocks Serum Visions, Ancient Stirring, and Surge Node. Hindering us from finding our key pieces can be a real threat. Also it makes the critical phase harder. It also has protection against Repeal. But if we already have our key pieces assembled than X=1 is only annoying. X=0 blocks Everflowing Chalice, Mox Opal, and Astral Cornucopia for zero. This can be a real threat, since we have to wait until assembling three lands to cast Astral Cornucopia for one. But they really have to know this fact and have to go first. But the best thing about Chalice is that it does nothing against the cast trigger of PE, so keep that in mind.

So, since writing this took the whole evening, I will most likely continue tomorrow with the more interesting discussion about the cards I don't currently play and why.

So, here is a list of cards that I currently don't play with a discussion. As I will probably forget many, I need to expand the list later, so the list may change and grow accordingly:

Other rocks and mana accelerants:

• Mind Stone is beaten by Everflowing Chalice, since drawing a card is not nearly as relevant as giving a cast trigger for zero mana (key word: critical phase). The next strike then is that it gives only colorless. Since we need repeatable colored mana sources and we only can fit so and so many mana rocks in our deck, we simply don't have room for the best runner-up.
• Hedron Archive costs too much and ramps us in a non-useful way. We need to get to five mana as fast as possible, but Hedron Archive ramps us from 4 to 6 resp. 7 mana, depending on the land drop. This is not where we want to be. The card draw is nice, but if you're willing to cast a six mana Divination, then something went terribly wrong anyway.
• Simic Signet stacks sometimes uncomfortably with the mana you have available. Even the one mana you need for the activation can throw a wrench in your plan and cost you in the worst case a whole turn.
• Noble Hierarch and Birds of Paradise, mana elves in general: They would pull the deck in a total different direction and make the deck more disconnected. For example, Ancient Stirring would lose much of its power, if we start to delude the deck with dorks. Another problem is that it turns the removals of our opponent from blanks into disruptive cards against us.
• Grand Architect, Etherium Sculptor, and others connect more with the artifact theme, but have the other problems of the dorks + being slow.

Engine cards:

• Isochron Scepter with imprinted Dramatic Reversal is mentioned really often as an alternative to PE. It is not. With our current rocks in Modern, I highly doubt that Dramatic Reversal on its own is any good. And I really tried it. And on its own is Isochron Scepter really useless. So to increase the effectiveness of Scepter, we would have to play a) still a not really good stand-alone in Dramatic Reversal and b) even more instants which are inferior to our digging sorceries.
• Whispers of the Muse is too ineffective as repeatable card-draw at six mana! It cycles for one, which is nice in the critical phase, but is terrible for setting up and digging.
• Mystic Speculation is close, but still not good enough. With buyback it sits at an affordable three mana and costs otherwise only one. But without buyback it trades down on cards, which is terrible. And with buyback you still need an extra draw or you have to wait a turn, which can be lethal, especially if you are already in the phase where you can cast it repeatably.
• Temple Bell is worse than Otherworld Atlas, at least if you have already the whole Dice Factory set-up. The main problem with Temple Bell is that it takes many activations and/or copies until you feel save not to fizzle anymore. Otherworld Atlas grows with every spell you play and, while not giving you the card now, gives you more cards in the long run in a whole bunch. Without the Dice Factory Temple Bell is probably better.
• Voltaic Key is an overkill card. If we are so progressed in setting up that we actually have enough counters on our rocks, we don't really need it at this point. If we haven't enough counters on rocks, then Voltaic Key doesn't really help us. (Activated Coretapper is bonkers anyway and Key in conjunction with Surge Node requires 3 mana for two counters and that is with a Key already in play.)

Card selection, draw, and tutors:

• Thoughtcast costs one mana, when it could cost arbitrarily much, and costs prohibitively high (meaning 2 and 3) mana, when you depend on it doing something useful. With the engine running you don't need efficiency and more cards and without the engine you need a spell that is cheaper and digs deeper than two. (Another principle at work here is that certain cards are more valuable to us than many arbitrary cards. This is the reason that many tutors that search to the top (Vampiric Tutor, Enlightened Tutor) are sooooo good, even though they trade down on cards.)
• Tezzeret's Gambit has the same problem as Thoughtcast. If we already have two to three permanents with counters on them, then a Divination is not where we want to be, even though it generates mana/more cards with Atlas. If we on the other hand are beginning to set up, then it costs too much for three mana and adds not enough counters in a such situation with only one active mana rock. In Tezzeret's Gambit the problem of Thoughtcast comes even stronger to light. They are, in fact, win-more cards in this approach to the deck, since we are not the slightest interested in card advantage.
• Sleight of Hand doesn't look deep enough. Pass.
• Opt is even worse. Could become a consideration with an Isochron Scepter in the deck.
• Fabricate is too slow. For two mana it would be the bomb, but for three mana it is too expensive. Additionally, the card lines up very poorly against discard. This evaluation should change a great deal, when you throw Isochron Scepter in the deck, simply by the way the mana costs line up.
• Whir of Invention is worse than Fabricate except for maybe control matchups. It requires the investment of 3+X mana in one turn, we have basically no artifacts that don't want to be tapped by themselves, and it requires triple blue. As a minor downside, Fabricate generates two PE triggers, but that should be minor.

Win-cons don't require a list by themselves: Emrakul and Walking Ballista don't do anything until the going-off phase, where any of the win-cons mentioned in the post above (Blue Sun's Zenith, Elixir of Immortality, and Noxious Revival) do it just as good. In the case of Emrakul probably even better and in the case of Walking Ballista better against Leyline. Although Ballista can deal with hate bears, which can be nice bonus. The only other win-con that begs discussion is Aetherflux Reservoir. The life gain is nice, but with four mana expensive and I doubt you chain that much spells into each other before going off. So the real application is gaining life against Burn, while going off, but that requires a) you to have it and b) that they don't have Skullcrack or similar effects. I'm not convinced.

Lands:

• Glimmervoid makes going into multi-color really easy. But it comes with the cost of not being able to say "Serum Visions, go." on turn 1. It just can force your opening to play really awkwardly.
• Spire of Industry has the same issue. Not having colored mana can be a real crux, e.g. an opening seven of Darksteel Citadel, Spire of Industry, Glimmervoid, Paradox Engine, Coretapper, Glint-Nest Crane, Ancient Stirrings becomes a mulligan, when otherwise it would have been a reasonable keep. That you are basically forced to play four Darksteel Citadel makes this only worse.
• Buried Ruin sounds like a nice tech, but the scenarios where it really helps you are so narrow that I would rather have the colored mana available.
• Academy Ruins has the same problem as Buried Ruin. Too narrow for actual usage, while the colorless is a cost too steep.
• Flooded Grove filters one colored mana into two. But the issue of the deck is to have at least 1 colored mana and not 2 or more. So it makes the underlying problem actually not better.

Flex slots:

• Remand seems like a natural choice, but it is actually really hard to keep two mana open, when the digging and setting up require so many ressources. Also Remand does genuinely next to nothing against Thoughtseize, which is one of our preboard mortal enemys. Again, changes in evaluation with an Isochron Scepter in the deck.
• Metallic Rebuke has the same problem as Whir of Invention: We actually tap our artifacts all the time, so Improvise doesn't really help us.

I want to emphasize that most cards in the above list are very good cards on their own and/or in our deck. So you can be convinced that the card is way too good to pass on. But the reasons I gave above are real and legit. If you still think that the pros outweigh the cons, then go ahead and play them. And please, write up why they deserve their spot in the list instead of just playing them.

@ellomdian
I used Stony Silence that often, because it is the most used and most efficient hate card against us and in 2/3 of my games I got an enemy who played it t2 and mulled till they had it. Since I don't play countermagic in the deck I need another way to deal with it. And to hope and draw 4 or 5 out of 60 cards when I need them is way to few for me.(maybe that's a personal decision from me but I don't want to lose on the spot. Also your oppnent doesn't just play stony silence and sits there and waits until you scoop)
But there are still a whole lot of other hate cards, but they all aren't that efficient(for example Pithing needle, Phyrexian revoker, Ancient Grudge, Shattering Spree, Abrupt decay and so forth.) These cards are bad for us but we can do something about it except drawing our protection, being faster than them or just scoop(as it would be the case with SS)
Maybe it's a personal choice or a Meta choice to where I play but I think another way of winning outside of the combo isn't unfocused or bad at all.
I also think you aren't aware of what a resolved Wildfire or Death Cloud do to the enemy, in most of the cases I resolved Wildfire, the opponent scooped. It is devastating and you have a lot of time to win after that, even in most cases it is 1 or 2 turns later with the combo.
And the argument: "I prefer to win instead of playing a six mana spell, have an advantage and give my opponent a go" is in that case wrong, because resolving this spell is the same as winning. Also if you "only" have 4 Paradox Engine in the deck you need to draw it. Yeah you can tutor them up but if you Fabricate
for PE and play it in the same turn you need U7and a 0 Artifact to get it running. If you say you can play a t3/4 Engine and go off, that's exactly what a list with wildfire can do too. I can agree, that the lists playing Wildfire and Death Cloud could be tuned to a more combocentric built in packing 4 Paradox Engine and 4 Otherworld Atlas, but still doesn't mean that the route with WF of DC is wrong or worse.

@Ratwohl
I agree on the Dramatic Reversal + Isochron Scepter issue. I also think it isn't worth the spots and you need 2 cards at the same time to make it work, additionally you also need 2. The advantage would be you can make infinite mana with a rock with 3 counters on it for Blue Sun's Zenith without playing much spells to make PE work and get infinite mana.

Lots of good stuff going on here.

I took a break from mtg and have started playing the deck again here and there on mtgo. Wow am I bad now! Back to the days only being able to fit 2 out of 3 games in per match before I run out of time.

@Ratwohl
I agree with most of your thoughts on various card choices.

Voltaic Key is a card that I love because it is just so dang useful. I only think it is "win more" if you are in 1-2 colors and need the slots for something else or want to pack some more interaction.
The most obvious use for Voltaic Key is untapping your mana rocks. Not only to build mana but also to filter colors from Mox Opal or Astral Cornucopia.
Another thing I like to do is add extra counters to Otherworld Atlas, or extra activations out of a Surge Node. It's a 1 Artifact that can be used to help get a Mox Opal online early. It helps to get Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas out early with only one colored mana rock and is relevant for his abilities.
The most explosive lines of play you can make with the deck come with the help of a voltaic key. I'm not sure it is "win-more" so much as it is "win-faster". In a format like modern, giving the opponent that extra turn can mean your defeat.

The other card I think you don't see the power of is Whir of Invention compared to Fabricate. Fabricate is nice, and has an easy casting cost. That is the only thing that is better about it than Whir. Whir is instant speed, puts it onto the battlefield, and has improvise. Improvise doesn't help much unless your ramp is disrupted, but it can mean the difference between casting the card and not sometimes.


"Glimmervoid makes going into multi-color really easy. But it comes with the cost of not being able to say "Serum Visions, go." on turn 1. It just can force your opening to play really awkwardly."
This isn't the deck to be playing one thing turn 1 and ending your turn most of the time. Glimmervoid can be awkward a times if you are unlucky but with ~30 artifacts or more, it's an issue less than you would think. Not to mention when you use an Ancient Stirrings turn 1, there are usually 12 artifacts in the deck that cost 0 you could potentially hit.

"Spire of Industry has the same issue. Not having colored mana can be a real crux, e.g. an opening seven of Darksteel Citadel, Spire of Industry, Glimmervoid, Paradox Engine, Coretapper, Glint-Nest Crane, Ancient Stirrings becomes a mulligan, when otherwise it would have been a reasonable keep. That you are basically forced to play four Darksteel Citadel makes this only worse."
See in this instance, I would play the glimmervoid, use stirrings and hope to find a rock or an opal. It seems like a pretty sweet hand, all you need is an atlas and you have the Crane to help find it.

Okay, what I've just written vanished, so here is the gist of things. Yes, Glimmervoid and Spire of Industry are both good cards. If you plan on playing Wildfire or Death Cloud they even become necessities. Only in the non-metagaming goldfishing deck above they become a suboptimal choice. (I see many combo lists here firmly in UG playing them and I think this is just not correct.)
An example for this: One has to deal with Stony Silence somehow and derayling the efficieny of the combo with enchantment removal that you still need to have in the case of Stony Silence is not the way to go. (This is an old MtG discussion, going even back to the Dojo days.) Since I'm very happy with my goldfishing 60, I'm again working on a transformational sideboard:



-4 Paradox Engine
-4 Otherworld Atlas
-4 Surge Node
-3 Astral Cornucopia
+ everything in the SB

The problem is that I don't have a way of currently testing the sideboard, since I don't own any Glimmervoid and Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas and I don't have Magic Online. But I would need to test this interactively against a variety of decks to see if this is even a good idea and to tune this.

On the case of Whir of Invention: It just seems to be worse than the digging spells, just as Fabricate. Yes, you can make cases for either of them being better, but I think both are not fast enough.
On the case of Voltaic Key: Just as Whir of Invention and Fabricate, it is a really good card, but the only room I currently see are the two flex slots plus maybe the slot of one Astral Cornucopia (in the case of 4 Cornucopias) or one land (in the case of 17 lands). But including them would make the transformational idea even worse, I think.

@Ratwohl
The thing with the transformational sideboard is, that it has to not rely on the rest of the deck. Meaning, that get some for example wurmcoil engines for g2 is not good.
I think that is the main idea behind your "digging spell philosophy" because they are good on their own and help any deck.

I played a non budget Boo Berries combo deck in legacy where you were fully reliant on the Mesmeric orb combo and win with lab maniac. Then in g2 you pack a painters servant grindstone combo package. So why that worked was because the deck just played a lot of cantrips and both versions were combo to abuse the deck design at the fullest.

Long story short, in my opinion you need to have a transformational board which is combo centric and doesn't rely on what the rest of the non cantrip deck does.

Or you could try to add things like Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas, lifecraft awakening or ensoul Artifact

The board in the wildfire list includes a Ghirapur Aether grid for that. Not optimal, but it's solid

Quote from Heskatet »

I also think you aren't aware of what a resolved Wildfire or Death Cloud do to the enemy

I played Budde's Dragon in Standard; I have a Saga playset signed by him. I've played Destructive Flow in Extended and Legacy. I played Eminent Domain in Standard. I've been playing a terrible version of that deck in Modern since the format's inception. I have a pretty good idea what that card can do to the enemy, and I don't think the best use of the mana generation engine presented here is casting that card. YMMV, but I'm pretty much done with this discussion until consistent results demonstrate otherwise.

Quote from redbaron4850 »

The other card I think you don't see the power of is Whir of Invention compared to Fabricate. Fabricate is nice, and has an easy casting cost. That is the only thing that is better about it than Whir. Whir is instant speed, puts it onto the battlefield, and has improvise. Improvise doesn't help much unless your ramp is disrupted, but it can mean the difference between casting the card and not sometimes.

WB Baron! And now I argue with you

My complaints about Whir largely come down to UUU being difficult to generate outside of a live Cornucopia. If you've got tons of mana, you are usually going off already.

Quote from Ratwohl »

An example for this: One has to deal with Stony Silence somehow and derayling the efficieny of the combo with enchantment removal that you still need to have in the case of Stony Silence is not the way to go. (This is an old MtG discussion, going even back to the Dojo days.)

I participated in those Dojo discussions I think you will be fine with the Transformation board, but my problem - in Eternal formats specifically - is that the diversity of a given room is so high that effective, versatile SB slots are generally preferable to single-case cards. Vintage players would *love* not to have to play Graveyard hate, but if enough of a room skimps on it, Dredge becomes the 'best deck.' REB is often the best card to bring in, but only because it is so effective against blue strategies as a whole. Stony Silence is great against janky artifact decks across the board... So you are left balancing deck (or strategy) specific cards (Leyline, Artifact/Enchantment hate) against cards that are better for you against the field, or in this case, a Transforming board that preemptively negates a common SB strategy against you.

Quote from Ratwohl »

Serum Visions is an okay card. It costs only one mana, which is important for the critical phase, and sets up the draws on turn one
...
Glimmervoid makes going into multi-color really easy. But it comes with the cost of not being able to say "Serum Visions, go." on turn 1. It just can force your opening to play really awkwardly... Spire of Industry has the same issue.

I have to agree with redbaron here. You're not playing efficient Rainbow lands because of the cost of playing an "okay" card turn 1, assuming you don't have any of your free artifact spells to go along with it? I mean, I understand your logic, but I feel like you are making a compromise on your mana efficiency because of corner-case Turn 1 plays.