Hello there fenrhyr,
nice to see you playing this deck
Yeah Mox Opal is absolutely neccessary in this deck especially in the Wildfire version. Glad to hear, that someone else also plays Blood moon in the main. Also Mox opal is neccessary to play other colored spells.
Why don't you play Mox Opal and lands like Spire of Industry or Glimmervoid? Are these budget reasons or don't you just have them at the moment? It turned out to me that these lands and the opal help to play anything you want/need in the sideboard and all other colored spells (Ancient Stirringsfor example). Stirrings also is nuts digging for artifacts, lands and even colorless Planeswalkers if you have them( Ugin, the Spirit Dragon ; Karn Liberated )
Do you use Otherworld Atlas for drawing cards only in a combo turn or to draw till you get what you need? You only have Tezzeret's gambit as a dig spell, how does this work for you?
Have you considered playing Ensnaring Bridge anywhere in the 75?
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"Master they threatened to darken the sky with their arrows!"
"Well, then we will at least fight in the shadow"
"There is no glory to be gained in the kingdom of the dead!"
Post by Narah about unbanning Mind Twist in legacy and that this would be evil:
Yeah, but it's really more "Disney Evil" than practical. It's like being a bond villain and giving a monologue rather then just shooting them.
If you want to play on MTGO add me I'm HeskatetAS, playing Modern and Legacy
Mox Opal, Glimmervoid, Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, Karn Liberated, Ensnaring Bridge, proper Blood Moon are not in the list because I don't own them for budget reasons (they are really expensive!) and their lack probably explains my poor results over the last weeks Also if I had them, I'd probably try Leyline of Sanctity main deck because it shuts down Burn as discard spells, period. (I tinkered over a pure White shell, nothing built that being said... no that Gideon is a multiple thing, may worth investigating...)
In a previous blue version I played Whir of invention and Serum vision for fetching combo piece. It was probably better than Wildfire version because less reliant on race casting Wildfire turn 3 and mono-colored... I did tried Faithless looting/Trash for treasure and then suffered Rest in Peace/Relic of Progenitus in game 2, alongside Stony Silence... Tried also the Ancient Stirrings but took them out into my Legacy deck, to be honest it worked better with the RG shell than the RW (although Path to Exile is nice for the pesky turn 2 Tasigur...)
The Atlas in mainly used for comboing off, sometimes for draw in a desperate attempt to get Paradox Engine
I think the bottom line is: if I want to keep playing this deck, I need to do some investments
Yeah you are right, they really are expensive, but at least mox opal is needed in the deck to be faster with whatever you want to do with the deck.
The mono blue shell was also discussed as a Toolbox-like version to tutor up what you need as protection a wincon etc.( maybe just read the thread if you haven't already done, because there are many versions of the deck which are all more or less successfull, but mostly it depends on your playstyle which version works good for you)
When you are playing with the RX Wildfire list Ghirapur Aether Grid is a possible addition against stony silence since you can still use your artifacts to deal damage or maybe control the board.
Concerning your investments, I agree, but the most needed part is Mox Opal in my opinion, just to have some very explosive starts.
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"Master they threatened to darken the sky with their arrows!"
"Well, then we will at least fight in the shadow"
"There is no glory to be gained in the kingdom of the dead!"
Post by Narah about unbanning Mind Twist in legacy and that this would be evil:
Yeah, but it's really more "Disney Evil" than practical. It's like being a bond villain and giving a monologue rather then just shooting them.
If you want to play on MTGO add me I'm HeskatetAS, playing Modern and Legacy
Glad to hear you are all still enjoying this deck, I have taken my latest iterations to several FNM's with some pretty great results. This is my current list :
I feel like this list is pretty tuned and I'm not sure I can think of much if any changes I would make in the mainboard. The one card I am considering adding is a single Batterskull as the ability to loop it's effects and actually net positive mana (thus infinite colourless mana) does seem like a viable 'on the spot' sort of win that this deck wants. I'm also considering not using Botanical Sanctum and instead use another card that can provide me any colour such as Mana Confluence but I'm not entirely sold on losing life. Lastly I am considering re-adding a single Blue Sun's Zenith as another win con that's hard to remove.
Handling the sideboard is ultimately the hardest challenge for and my current list has quite a few options to rip Stony Silence out of their hands and potentially even destroy it once it's in play. A huge gamechanger has been Inquisition of Kozilek and Thoughtseize as well as a more sturdy land-base that will typically provide me with enough options to cast it on turn one. I have had a few games where I wasn't able to get black mana on turn 1 and on turn 2 they played Stony before I could remove it from their hand, those are tougher matchups but still not impossible. Overall I have gone to basically turning belly up against Stony and just dying 90% of the time to actually being able to attack their enchantment pre-emptively and also come back and fight back if it does his the board.
Aside from those match-ups, Leyline of Sanctity is almost a must have against Burn, 8Rack, Death's Shadow anything and a plethora of combo decks. I would personally never play any less than 3 in the SB and have played with 4 more often than not.
Trinisphere can act as a hard lock after destroying all their land as well as completely mess up some decks including Storm. I have completely won a few games on the backs of this card and few players are used to playing with it, you can be a huge rules-lawyer douche if you want with this card as well but I try to avoid that.
All is Dust maybe is the one card in the sideboard that doesn't belong but it is effective against slower decks trying to draw you into a later game. It could probably be replaced with something more proactive.
This latest build is a bit different in terms of cards that can win you the game. 90% of the time my opponents will concede well before I actually have to win, but if you need to actually play it out is to completely put them in a lock-down state + draw most of your deck up using the Paradox/Atlas combo with Ugin or Tezzeret on the board. This might at first glance seem hard to do but in reality it's exactly what the deck is tuned to do, so it's not as challenging on paper as it may look. Tezzeret's ultimate is the easiest and cleanest victory however the alternative victory will be playing Ugin and literally bolting them to death with Ugin turn after turn.
One last point - this deck is an insanely expensive modern deck. I happen to have the paper cards for it due to having a very old collection, but putting this together 'for fun' is almost impossible for most players. This gives this deck an extremely unique look at FNM's and other players at the shops I go to are totally amazed by how my deck works and what it does, but few have the resources to actually put anything together like it. Because of these reasons, and because of the fact everytime I play new people they have never seen it before, probably makes it my favourite modern deck I've ever played. There is a lot of quick math going on and if you can play quickly it helps, but other players can be a little depressed playing against you as it plays so many 'un-fun' cards so that would probably be the major downsides.
A friend stumbled across a similar list being discussed here a number weeks ago, and we liked it enough to actually try putting it through it's paces online and IRL. I'm a big fan of anything that lets me feel like I'm playing Legacy in Modern, and Mox Opal/Coretapper/0-CMC-Artifacts qualify. The basic list we've been working with follows:
- I don't feel like Scepter/Reversal is arbitrarily a bad thing. Reversal allows the deck to go off manually under less-than-optimal board states, and often times accelerating out something like an Ugin or a Emmy post-board is good 'nuff. And if you're playing Reversal, it's really hard not to take the free wins that Scepter gives you.
- Agree that you often want to be winning the game the turn Engine hits the board, but there are an awful lot of games that you can set up a potential win on-board the following turn and pass, assuming you are not already dead-on-board. The format's fundamental turn feels very much determined by the combat step, and the lack of many significant hasty or combat tricks mean that you can reasonably plan your winning turn in advance.
Also, this means it's not nearly as scary to give combat-oriented decks additional cards the turn before you plan to go off, especially in pre-boarded games where they are less likely to have clean answers to what you are trying to do.
- It feels like a significant amount of power in the deck exists in the ability to generate multiple cards the turn you expect to go off, a la Meditate. There are combo decks that need to have all of the pieces in place before they try to go off - this really doesn't feel like one of them. You have reasonable percentages to draw what you need to move forward, especially with 3 Reversals in the list to run your engines manually again.
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Modern: Dominium Eminens
Legacy: UB Tezz (Check out My Primer at TheSource)
Vinitage: Oath
This is my list so far. It really works good and has several angles from where the deck attacks, still I am not sure if I want to add additional win options like Chandra, Torch of Defiance or also Ghirapur Aether Grid. Card advantage from Chandra, or the damage, ramping and the ulti are all great abilities and Aether Grid even gets use of your artifacts, when Stony Silence is on the board and you don't have an immediate answer for it.
Edit: List was corrected; spelling errors corrected
One last point - this deck is an insanely expensive modern deck. I happen to have the paper cards for it due to having a very old collection, but putting this together 'for fun' is almost impossible for most players.
I understand your point, but keep in mind that the kind of player that's going to enjoy playing this deck is likely coming from a Legacy/Vintage background. I am enjoying it because it feels similar to High Tide, and if you can afford (Or have) Candlesticks, you are ecstatic that Opals are played in more than one Deck
What matchups are you bringing in 3-Sphere against? How are you functioning or going off underneath it since the manabase is super slim until you get a colorless engine going?
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Modern: Dominium Eminens
Legacy: UB Tezz (Check out My Primer at TheSource)
Vinitage: Oath
I never had an issue to cast Ancient stirrings t1 if I had to, but most of the time I just don't want or need to t1 Stirrings. Most of the time my first turn consists of dropping a rock and a Surge Node. There are lines of play where a Stirrings cast later in the game is neccessary because you need to race to wildfire in the first turns meaning you play first turn rock node opal put counter on rock followed by t2 Tezzeret's Gambit into Wildfire, after that you can search for wincons with Ancient stirrings. That is how it often comes up in games I have.
Sun Droplet is a personal sideboard choice for Burn additional to Monastery Siege, I tried Clearwater Goblet and Wurmcoil engine before, but 5 and 6 mana can be very hard game 2 when they know what you are doing. They will pack artifact hate and kill your rocks and deal damage with Smash to Smithereens and Destructive revelry so you won't get to cast Wurmcoil or Batterskull. So with the exception to Wurmcoil Engine leaving a 3/3 Lifelinker on the field after dying the other's are not a real option and 6 mana can be hard.
Sun Droplet helps to stall out the game till you maybe find an answer. It provides 2 life per turn(1 on your, 1 on their upkeep) so Lightning Bolt and such virtually deal only 1 dmg, and you also have Inventors' fair.
Still I am not quite sure if it is the right choice.
Krosan Grip is a control matchup Choice and boarded in only for this reason. They control your board until they drop a threat and beat you down, mostly with stony silence on the board, and they will mill till they get one. So you have the time to get to 3 mana. They won't counter your rocks while they have stony silence, and in the first turn, they mostly can't counter everything you drop on the table. So you can build up your board and then kill Stony Silence with krosan grip then start to use your rocks and take over the game.
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"Master they threatened to darken the sky with their arrows!"
"Well, then we will at least fight in the shadow"
"There is no glory to be gained in the kingdom of the dead!"
Post by Narah about unbanning Mind Twist in legacy and that this would be evil:
Yeah, but it's really more "Disney Evil" than practical. It's like being a bond villain and giving a monologue rather then just shooting them.
If you want to play on MTGO add me I'm HeskatetAS, playing Modern and Legacy
What matchups are you bringing in 3-Sphere against? How are you functioning or going off underneath it since the manabase is super slim until you get a colorless engine going?
I haven't actually ever played Trinisphere when it could affect me negatively, typically I would being it down after Bust goes off and destroys all their land.
I bring in Trinisphere against Storm which is everywhere right now when in using it proactively. I also like it against tempo-style blue decks such as Faeries.
Sun Droplet is a personal sideboard choice for Burn
I <3 Sun Droplet, not just against straight Burn, but against a lot of small-red-dude based aggro match-ups. If they're hitting you with creatures that easily slide under Bridge, Sun Droplet is a huuuuuge slowdown for them, often buying you a turn or 2 on it's own.
I bring in Trinisphere against Storm which is everywhere right now when in using it proactively. I also like it against tempo-style blue decks such as Faeries.
I find myself saying this more and more, but I'm sort of glad I don't have to deal with your Meta (yet.) Gifts Storm hasn't blown up around me yet, but I expect it's coming soon enough.
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Modern: Dominium Eminens
Legacy: UB Tezz (Check out My Primer at TheSource)
Vinitage: Oath
Glad to see this deck is picking up some attention. It is for sure not a cheap deck to build. A pretty expensive one actually. It feels very much like playing legacy when things go good and I love it. Turn 2 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas is still one of my favorite things to do and can be a game winner alone.
Long-time lurker, first time poster. This deck is really fun, but competitively feels like it needs something to make it more powerful and consistent. I've been tinkering around with Possibility Storm and was wondering if the multiple cast triggers that you get off of it can help prevent the deck from running out of gas. It also allows you to turn 1 mana Ancient Stirrings into Wildfire or Destructive Force. And it would also allow us to have the alternate wincon of Storming a Walking Ballista into an Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. Probably too cute, but I tend to have many turns where I either run out of gas or give my opponent too many answers when they draw off of my Otherworld Atlas and wanna look for other avenues to explore with this list.
Glad to see this deck is picking up some attention. It is for sure not a cheap deck to build. A pretty expensive one actually. It feels very much like playing legacy when things go good and I love it. Turn 2 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas is still one of my favorite things to do and can be a game winner alone.
I'm thinking of removing Tezzeret, the Seeker for Agent of Bolas as my deck is swinging into black. Seeker's big upside for me is the tutor ability which is beautiful in zipping out an Ensnaring Bridge or Pithing Needle for example, his untap ability is great for our mana, and his ultimate will be a win-con.
Agent of Bolas's ability seem a little less strong but I can see they probably are better than Seeker against some of our most tough match-ups such as burn. Can you give me any insight as to why you have found him so good or perhaps better than Seeker in your eyes?
Another thing I've been considering lately, and something I'm not sure if you've tried yet, is a more aggressive landkill/tempo approach using one more of the following:
Playing a more ramp-heavy style R/G Ponza-style with our ramp package, you could probably totally forego the Paradox/Atlas plan and go straight to the big nasty stuff & planeswalkers. This idea was born from the thought of using Plow Under on something on turn 3 on the play and putting two lands on top of their library - this is in many ways even better than land destruction as it completely nukes their next few turns in 99% of cases and gives you two full turns to have at them.
Big Tezz costs 1 more although he is in only one color. That is a strike against him early. He is kind of expensive to be finding combo pieces. You would be casting the Seeker around when you want to be casting Paradox Engine or Otherworld Atlas.
AoB, on the other hand, can come down turn 2 with the help of Mox Opal and some sort of turn 1 ramp. He provides card advantage with his +1 unlike the seeker also protecting himself in the process. He can find anything in the deck save Wildfire or Ugin typically. He is great for added consistency in the combo version alongside Ancient Stirrings.
His -1 can create a 5/5 creature from 80% of the cards in the deck. Compared with the untapping of big tezz, this is much more versatile. It is best used in conjunction with the Darksteel Citadel that was used to help cast AoB for an indestructible 5/5 on turn 3. It can be used earlier on that if you need a beefy blocker also. All of the artifact destruction or stony silences in the world can't stop indestructible creatures. Paths usually come out game 2 on the opponents side. It also buffs Wurmcoils that have been split back up to 5/5 which can be really nice. Or on extra surge nodes and the like. In a list with Voltaic Key, you can attack and block every turn as well.
And then the ultimate. We often have 6-10 artifacts on the board in the first 5 turns of the game. Combined with shocks, fetches, and other things, we don't even really need to deal all that much damage with the ult to win. Also against burn or creature heavy decks, the ult can gain us that extra turn or two that we so need to get a wildfire off or combo out.
I really really like Agent of Bolas in the deck. I think any version should try and fit at least one in unless it is mono color or blood moon heavy. That is the worst thing about running 3-4 colors with the deck is that I'm actually hit kind of hard by blood moon now and don't even run it instead of taking advantage of it.
So even if I didn't play him in this deck, Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas is a powerhouse. I play him in legacy affinity and he's just that good!
He creates card advantage and threats and is a threat himself in this deck. I would always prefere him to Tezzeret the seeker.
@redbaron (and the others),
Do you think it is possible to get enough data to write a comment about the matchups we have for the different versions that we are running or is it even possible to summarise them for all decks at once because they tend to be, like, the "same" deck?
@redbaron
I am curious how your UBR list looks like. Is it the 1 in the first post or is it different from that?
Edit: spelling corrected
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"Master they threatened to darken the sky with their arrows!"
"Well, then we will at least fight in the shadow"
"There is no glory to be gained in the kingdom of the dead!"
Post by Narah about unbanning Mind Twist in legacy and that this would be evil:
Yeah, but it's really more "Disney Evil" than practical. It's like being a bond villain and giving a monologue rather then just shooting them.
If you want to play on MTGO add me I'm HeskatetAS, playing Modern and Legacy
The thing I like about this list compared with others is that it is to the point and can do different things, even when the mana is disrupted.
I started writing a section for all of the matchups but the task seemed overwhelming and I gave up. As far as which versions of the deck handle different situations better or different decks even, it could be easier to write.
Hmm I think it is a lot of work to do a matchup analysis, but I would try and help you if you want.
Wanted to playin a modern league or something like that on mtgo. Part for fun, part for doing some of the analysis
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"Master they threatened to darken the sky with their arrows!"
"Well, then we will at least fight in the shadow"
"There is no glory to be gained in the kingdom of the dead!"
Post by Narah about unbanning Mind Twist in legacy and that this would be evil:
Yeah, but it's really more "Disney Evil" than practical. It's like being a bond villain and giving a monologue rather then just shooting them.
If you want to play on MTGO add me I'm HeskatetAS, playing Modern and Legacy
Took the Sultai list for my first ever spin with the deck tonight on MTGO. Even though I only went 3-2 (Infect blew me out and Jund ripped a clutch Molten Rain) I don't think I've ever had this much fun before.
Red should be burn, Goblins, Dragons, draw/discard, and Standard-unplayable 5CMC cards with insane, lengthy effects that take 10 minutes to figure out what they do and another 20 to actually make their effects work on the field.
I've been playing this list at FNMs and side events at GPs, but I am planning on attending at least 3 Modern GPs with this in 2018, so I am seeking feedback, particularly on what you think about the sideboard in relation to tier 1 lists.
I ran the exact 75. Almost every game was won through Atlas + Elixir for just enough to keep me from losing. Eldrazi Tron I was able to beat game 2 with T4 Wurmcoil beats. He kept an opener of Chalice on 0, Leyline of the Void, and Pithing Needle on Coretapper. Didn't matter
Red should be burn, Goblins, Dragons, draw/discard, and Standard-unplayable 5CMC cards with insane, lengthy effects that take 10 minutes to figure out what they do and another 20 to actually make their effects work on the field.
nice you had fun with the deck. May I ask against what you won your Matches and how good Deathcloud worked for you.
Maybe you could tell us something about the pro's and con's of the deck and if you would prefere any other cards over the ones you played, if this isn't too much asked (I'm just curious)
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"Master they threatened to darken the sky with their arrows!"
"Well, then we will at least fight in the shadow"
"There is no glory to be gained in the kingdom of the dead!"
Post by Narah about unbanning Mind Twist in legacy and that this would be evil:
Yeah, but it's really more "Disney Evil" than practical. It's like being a bond villain and giving a monologue rather then just shooting them.
If you want to play on MTGO add me I'm HeskatetAS, playing Modern and Legacy
Pretty much every game was won with Atlas and Elixir, with the rest being due to Wurmcoil beats. Death Cloud never really came up, except once against Eldrazi Tron. I was able to Death Cloud wiping away his lands and reality smashers, dropping down to 1. Although I was dead to land land Ballista, this gave me enough time to go off.
I went 4-1 last night (again a friendly though) and I had much more varied wins.
First match was Storm, and it was a pretty easy game. He kept slow hands that were focused on Remanding my stuff, so he never really hit a critical mass to go off before I did. Both games were won with Tezzeret here. I could have gone off eith Elixir and Atlas, but Tezz was faster and it felt safer than letting another blue based combo deck draw cards.
1-0
Second match was against Affinity and he just had super fast draws before I could get anything online.
1-1
Third was elves. Game 1 I was able to Death Cloud for 5 but he had Chord for Hertiage Druid then Company in reaponse. That was gross. Game 2 I won with Wurmcoil stalling him out until I could go off and end it with Tezzeret. Game 3 he was Death Clouded for 4 wiping everything, leaving me with a Tezzeret and mana rocks.
2-1
Fourth was Jeskai. Game 1 I was able to combo off as his only counter was a Spell Queller, which does not hit Paradox Engine or Death Cloud for 12 Game 2 I lost to bolt snap bolt and Geist. I was one turn short of going off, or at least stabilizing. Game 3 was a turn 2 Wurmcoil and he didn't have a path.
3-1
Final match was against that Mardu Reveler deck. Game 1 he got stuck on one land and I just killed him with Volatic Key beats thanks to Tezz. He finally killed it and then I used Death Cloud as an overpriced Bolt. Game 2 he was stuck on one land as well, but he was banking on discard. Unfortunately for him I had Leyline, and T3 Wurmcoil beats again.
4-1
Overall I'd say most wins are with Atlas + Elixir/Tezzeret, followed by Wurmcoil and lately Death Cloud.
Against Elves and Affinity I really wished I was base red with Wildfire and Destructive Force just because it doesn't matter how wide they go. Death Cloud being a pseudo fireball and hand destruction was relevant though (plus I own 2 foils in paper) so I'm not sure which I prefer.
Tezzeret was really good too. In my first league I really undervalued him, but now I'm starting to see his power.
Red should be burn, Goblins, Dragons, draw/discard, and Standard-unplayable 5CMC cards with insane, lengthy effects that take 10 minutes to figure out what they do and another 20 to actually make their effects work on the field.
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nice to see you playing this deck
Yeah Mox Opal is absolutely neccessary in this deck especially in the Wildfire version. Glad to hear, that someone else also plays Blood moon in the main. Also Mox opal is neccessary to play other colored spells.
Why don't you play Mox Opal and lands like Spire of Industry or Glimmervoid? Are these budget reasons or don't you just have them at the moment? It turned out to me that these lands and the opal help to play anything you want/need in the sideboard and all other colored spells (Ancient Stirringsfor example). Stirrings also is nuts digging for artifacts, lands and even colorless Planeswalkers if you have them( Ugin, the Spirit Dragon ; Karn Liberated )
Do you use Otherworld Atlas for drawing cards only in a combo turn or to draw till you get what you need? You only have Tezzeret's gambit as a dig spell, how does this work for you?
Have you considered playing Ensnaring Bridge anywhere in the 75?
"Well, then we will at least fight in the shadow"
"There is no glory to be gained in the kingdom of the dead!"
Post by Narah about unbanning Mind Twist in legacy and that this would be evil:
If you want to play on MTGO add me I'm HeskatetAS, playing Modern and Legacy
In a previous blue version I played Whir of invention and Serum vision for fetching combo piece. It was probably better than Wildfire version because less reliant on race casting Wildfire turn 3 and mono-colored... I did tried Faithless looting/Trash for treasure and then suffered Rest in Peace/Relic of Progenitus in game 2, alongside Stony Silence... Tried also the Ancient Stirrings but took them out into my Legacy deck, to be honest it worked better with the RG shell than the RW (although Path to Exile is nice for the pesky turn 2 Tasigur...)
The Atlas in mainly used for comboing off, sometimes for draw in a desperate attempt to get Paradox Engine
I think the bottom line is: if I want to keep playing this deck, I need to do some investments
The mono blue shell was also discussed as a Toolbox-like version to tutor up what you need as protection a wincon etc.( maybe just read the thread if you haven't already done, because there are many versions of the deck which are all more or less successfull, but mostly it depends on your playstyle which version works good for you)
When you are playing with the RX Wildfire list Ghirapur Aether Grid is a possible addition against stony silence since you can still use your artifacts to deal damage or maybe control the board.
Concerning your investments, I agree, but the most needed part is Mox Opal in my opinion, just to have some very explosive starts.
"Well, then we will at least fight in the shadow"
"There is no glory to be gained in the kingdom of the dead!"
Post by Narah about unbanning Mind Twist in legacy and that this would be evil:
If you want to play on MTGO add me I'm HeskatetAS, playing Modern and Legacy
Glad to hear you are all still enjoying this deck, I have taken my latest iterations to several FNM's with some pretty great results. This is my current list :
4x Astral Cornucopia
4x Chalice of the Void
1x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Everflowing Chalice
3x Mox Opal
1x Otherworld Atlas
1x Paradox Engine
4x Surge Node
Creature (4)
4x Coretapper
Land (18)
4x Botanical Sanctum
3x Darksteel Citadel
3x Gemstone Mine
4x Glimmervoid
4x Spire of Industry
2x Abrupt Decay
3x Whir of Invention
4x Ancient Stirrings
4x Boom/Bust
Planeswalker (3)
1x Tezzeret the Seeker
2x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2x All Is Dust
1x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Spellskite
2x Thoughtseize
1x Trinisphere
I feel like this list is pretty tuned and I'm not sure I can think of much if any changes I would make in the mainboard. The one card I am considering adding is a single Batterskull as the ability to loop it's effects and actually net positive mana (thus infinite colourless mana) does seem like a viable 'on the spot' sort of win that this deck wants. I'm also considering not using Botanical Sanctum and instead use another card that can provide me any colour such as Mana Confluence but I'm not entirely sold on losing life. Lastly I am considering re-adding a single Blue Sun's Zenith as another win con that's hard to remove.
Handling the sideboard is ultimately the hardest challenge for and my current list has quite a few options to rip Stony Silence out of their hands and potentially even destroy it once it's in play. A huge gamechanger has been Inquisition of Kozilek and Thoughtseize as well as a more sturdy land-base that will typically provide me with enough options to cast it on turn one. I have had a few games where I wasn't able to get black mana on turn 1 and on turn 2 they played Stony before I could remove it from their hand, those are tougher matchups but still not impossible. Overall I have gone to basically turning belly up against Stony and just dying 90% of the time to actually being able to attack their enchantment pre-emptively and also come back and fight back if it does his the board.
Aside from those match-ups, Leyline of Sanctity is almost a must have against Burn, 8Rack, Death's Shadow anything and a plethora of combo decks. I would personally never play any less than 3 in the SB and have played with 4 more often than not.
Trinisphere can act as a hard lock after destroying all their land as well as completely mess up some decks including Storm. I have completely won a few games on the backs of this card and few players are used to playing with it, you can be a huge rules-lawyer douche if you want with this card as well but I try to avoid that.
All is Dust maybe is the one card in the sideboard that doesn't belong but it is effective against slower decks trying to draw you into a later game. It could probably be replaced with something more proactive.
This latest build is a bit different in terms of cards that can win you the game. 90% of the time my opponents will concede well before I actually have to win, but if you need to actually play it out is to completely put them in a lock-down state + draw most of your deck up using the Paradox/Atlas combo with Ugin or Tezzeret on the board. This might at first glance seem hard to do but in reality it's exactly what the deck is tuned to do, so it's not as challenging on paper as it may look. Tezzeret's ultimate is the easiest and cleanest victory however the alternative victory will be playing Ugin and literally bolting them to death with Ugin turn after turn.
One last point - this deck is an insanely expensive modern deck. I happen to have the paper cards for it due to having a very old collection, but putting this together 'for fun' is almost impossible for most players. This gives this deck an extremely unique look at FNM's and other players at the shops I go to are totally amazed by how my deck works and what it does, but few have the resources to actually put anything together like it. Because of these reasons, and because of the fact everytime I play new people they have never seen it before, probably makes it my favourite modern deck I've ever played. There is a lot of quick math going on and if you can play quickly it helps, but other players can be a little depressed playing against you as it plays so many 'un-fun' cards so that would probably be the major downsides.
actually I didn't have an answer for that till now =)
"Well, then we will at least fight in the shadow"
"There is no glory to be gained in the kingdom of the dead!"
Post by Narah about unbanning Mind Twist in legacy and that this would be evil:
If you want to play on MTGO add me I'm HeskatetAS, playing Modern and Legacy
4 Coretapper
1 Walking Ballista
Artifacts (28):
4 Mox Opal
4 Astral Cornucopia
4 Everflowing Chalice
4 Surge Node
3 Temple Bell
2 Paradox Engine
2 Otherworld Atlas
2 Isochron Scepter
2 Voltaic Key
1 Aetherflux Reservoir
4 Ancient Stirrings
3 Dramatic Reversal
2 Fabricate
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
Lands (17):
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Glimmervoid
2 Inventors' Fair
2 Spire of Industry
2 Botanical Sanctum
1 Buried Ruins
1 Academy Ruins
1 Forest
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Welding Jar
2 Padeem, Consul of Innovation
2 Wear // Tear
2 Seal of Primordium
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
A few notes:
- I don't feel like Scepter/Reversal is arbitrarily a bad thing. Reversal allows the deck to go off manually under less-than-optimal board states, and often times accelerating out something like an Ugin or a Emmy post-board is good 'nuff. And if you're playing Reversal, it's really hard not to take the free wins that Scepter gives you.
- Agree that you often want to be winning the game the turn Engine hits the board, but there are an awful lot of games that you can set up a potential win on-board the following turn and pass, assuming you are not already dead-on-board. The format's fundamental turn feels very much determined by the combat step, and the lack of many significant hasty or combat tricks mean that you can reasonably plan your winning turn in advance.
Also, this means it's not nearly as scary to give combat-oriented decks additional cards the turn before you plan to go off, especially in pre-boarded games where they are less likely to have clean answers to what you are trying to do.
- It feels like a significant amount of power in the deck exists in the ability to generate multiple cards the turn you expect to go off, a la Meditate. There are combo decks that need to have all of the pieces in place before they try to go off - this really doesn't feel like one of them. You have reasonable percentages to draw what you need to move forward, especially with 3 Reversals in the list to run your engines manually again.
Modern: Dominium Eminens
Legacy: UB Tezz (Check out My Primer at TheSource)
Vinitage: Oath
I used to judge alot.
I will post the list later when I am on my computer.
"Well, then we will at least fight in the shadow"
"There is no glory to be gained in the kingdom of the dead!"
Post by Narah about unbanning Mind Twist in legacy and that this would be evil:
If you want to play on MTGO add me I'm HeskatetAS, playing Modern and Legacy
3x Mox opal
3x Everflowing chalice
4x Ancient Stirrings
4x Surge Node
4x Coretapper
3x Tezzeret's Gambit
3x Wildfire
1x Destructive Force
2x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2x Paradox Engine
3x Otherworld Atlas
3x Blood Moon
2x Monastery Siege
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Elixir of Immortality
3x Inventors' Fair
2x Spire of Industry
1x Ghost Quarter
7x Mountain
2x Darksteel Citadel
Siderboard:
This is my list so far. It really works good and has several angles from where the deck attacks, still I am not sure if I want to add additional win options like Chandra, Torch of Defiance or also Ghirapur Aether Grid. Card advantage from Chandra, or the damage, ramping and the ulti are all great abilities and Aether Grid even gets use of your artifacts, when Stony Silence is on the board and you don't have an immediate answer for it.
Edit: List was corrected; spelling errors corrected
"Well, then we will at least fight in the shadow"
"There is no glory to be gained in the kingdom of the dead!"
Post by Narah about unbanning Mind Twist in legacy and that this would be evil:
If you want to play on MTGO add me I'm HeskatetAS, playing Modern and Legacy
I understand your point, but keep in mind that the kind of player that's going to enjoy playing this deck is likely coming from a Legacy/Vintage background. I am enjoying it because it feels similar to High Tide, and if you can afford (Or have) Candlesticks, you are ecstatic that Opals are played in more than one Deck
What matchups are you bringing in 3-Sphere against? How are you functioning or going off underneath it since the manabase is super slim until you get a colorless engine going?
Modern: Dominium Eminens
Legacy: UB Tezz (Check out My Primer at TheSource)
Vinitage: Oath
I used to judge alot.
I got Ugin and Otherworld Atlas / Paradox Engine / Elixir of Immortality to let them draw their deck in my combo turn.
You can't imagine how often people scoop to a resolved Wildfire or Destructive Force even if it is not backed up with Ugin, the Spirit Dragon it is just awesome =) Sometimes I think I just don't need a win option because they scoop after that =D
I never had an issue to cast Ancient stirrings t1 if I had to, but most of the time I just don't want or need to t1 Stirrings. Most of the time my first turn consists of dropping a rock and a Surge Node. There are lines of play where a Stirrings cast later in the game is neccessary because you need to race to wildfire in the first turns meaning you play first turn rock node opal put counter on rock followed by t2 Tezzeret's Gambit into Wildfire, after that you can search for wincons with Ancient stirrings. That is how it often comes up in games I have.
Sun Droplet is a personal sideboard choice for Burn additional to Monastery Siege, I tried Clearwater Goblet and Wurmcoil engine before, but 5 and 6 mana can be very hard game 2 when they know what you are doing. They will pack artifact hate and kill your rocks and deal damage with Smash to Smithereens and Destructive revelry so you won't get to cast Wurmcoil or Batterskull. So with the exception to Wurmcoil Engine leaving a 3/3 Lifelinker on the field after dying the other's are not a real option and 6 mana can be hard.
Sun Droplet helps to stall out the game till you maybe find an answer. It provides 2 life per turn(1 on your, 1 on their upkeep) so Lightning Bolt and such virtually deal only 1 dmg, and you also have Inventors' fair.
Still I am not quite sure if it is the right choice.
Krosan Grip is a control matchup Choice and boarded in only for this reason. They control your board until they drop a threat and beat you down, mostly with stony silence on the board, and they will mill till they get one. So you have the time to get to 3 mana. They won't counter your rocks while they have stony silence, and in the first turn, they mostly can't counter everything you drop on the table. So you can build up your board and then kill Stony Silence with krosan grip then start to use your rocks and take over the game.
"Well, then we will at least fight in the shadow"
"There is no glory to be gained in the kingdom of the dead!"
Post by Narah about unbanning Mind Twist in legacy and that this would be evil:
If you want to play on MTGO add me I'm HeskatetAS, playing Modern and Legacy
I haven't actually ever played Trinisphere when it could affect me negatively, typically I would being it down after Bust goes off and destroys all their land.
I bring in Trinisphere against Storm which is everywhere right now when in using it proactively. I also like it against tempo-style blue decks such as Faeries.
I <3 Sun Droplet, not just against straight Burn, but against a lot of small-red-dude based aggro match-ups. If they're hitting you with creatures that easily slide under Bridge, Sun Droplet is a huuuuuge slowdown for them, often buying you a turn or 2 on it's own.
I find myself saying this more and more, but I'm sort of glad I don't have to deal with your Meta (yet.) Gifts Storm hasn't blown up around me yet, but I expect it's coming soon enough.
Modern: Dominium Eminens
Legacy: UB Tezz (Check out My Primer at TheSource)
Vinitage: Oath
I used to judge alot.
Modern
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Check out the Primer!
I'm thinking of removing Tezzeret, the Seeker for Agent of Bolas as my deck is swinging into black. Seeker's big upside for me is the tutor ability which is beautiful in zipping out an Ensnaring Bridge or Pithing Needle for example, his untap ability is great for our mana, and his ultimate will be a win-con.
Agent of Bolas's ability seem a little less strong but I can see they probably are better than Seeker against some of our most tough match-ups such as burn. Can you give me any insight as to why you have found him so good or perhaps better than Seeker in your eyes?
Another thing I've been considering lately, and something I'm not sure if you've tried yet, is a more aggressive landkill/tempo approach using one more of the following:
Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
Plow Under
& split copies of Boom/Bust & Wildfire
Playing a more ramp-heavy style R/G Ponza-style with our ramp package, you could probably totally forego the Paradox/Atlas plan and go straight to the big nasty stuff & planeswalkers. This idea was born from the thought of using Plow Under on something on turn 3 on the play and putting two lands on top of their library - this is in many ways even better than land destruction as it completely nukes their next few turns in 99% of cases and gives you two full turns to have at them.
Thanks again for your work on this deck, redbaron
The only benefit I think Tezzeret the Seeker has over Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas is the tutor ability. The problem with the tutor is that it can't find Paradox Engine the turn it is cast right away.
Big Tezz costs 1 more although he is in only one color. That is a strike against him early. He is kind of expensive to be finding combo pieces. You would be casting the Seeker around when you want to be casting Paradox Engine or Otherworld Atlas.
AoB, on the other hand, can come down turn 2 with the help of Mox Opal and some sort of turn 1 ramp. He provides card advantage with his +1 unlike the seeker also protecting himself in the process. He can find anything in the deck save Wildfire or Ugin typically. He is great for added consistency in the combo version alongside Ancient Stirrings.
His -1 can create a 5/5 creature from 80% of the cards in the deck. Compared with the untapping of big tezz, this is much more versatile. It is best used in conjunction with the Darksteel Citadel that was used to help cast AoB for an indestructible 5/5 on turn 3. It can be used earlier on that if you need a beefy blocker also. All of the artifact destruction or stony silences in the world can't stop indestructible creatures. Paths usually come out game 2 on the opponents side. It also buffs Wurmcoils that have been split back up to 5/5 which can be really nice. Or on extra surge nodes and the like. In a list with Voltaic Key, you can attack and block every turn as well.
And then the ultimate. We often have 6-10 artifacts on the board in the first 5 turns of the game. Combined with shocks, fetches, and other things, we don't even really need to deal all that much damage with the ult to win. Also against burn or creature heavy decks, the ult can gain us that extra turn or two that we so need to get a wildfire off or combo out.
I really really like Agent of Bolas in the deck. I think any version should try and fit at least one in unless it is mono color or blood moon heavy. That is the worst thing about running 3-4 colors with the deck is that I'm actually hit kind of hard by blood moon now and don't even run it instead of taking advantage of it.
Modern
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Check out the Primer!
He creates card advantage and threats and is a threat himself in this deck. I would always prefere him to Tezzeret the seeker.
@redbaron (and the others),
Do you think it is possible to get enough data to write a comment about the matchups we have for the different versions that we are running or is it even possible to summarise them for all decks at once because they tend to be, like, the "same" deck?
@redbaron
I am curious how your UBR list looks like. Is it the 1 in the first post or is it different from that?
Edit: spelling corrected
"Well, then we will at least fight in the shadow"
"There is no glory to be gained in the kingdom of the dead!"
Post by Narah about unbanning Mind Twist in legacy and that this would be evil:
If you want to play on MTGO add me I'm HeskatetAS, playing Modern and Legacy
1 Academy Ruins
2 Blooming Marsh
3 Darksteel Citadel
4 Glimmervoid
2 Inventors' Fair
4 Spire of Industry
1 Swamp
Artifacts 27
4 Mox Opal
4 Everflowing Chalice
4 Astral Cornucopia
4 Surge Node
3 Voltaic Key
1 Elixir of Immortality
4 Otherworld Atlas
3 Paradox Engine
4 Coretapper
Spells 10
4 Ancient Stirrings
3 Tezzeret's Gambit
3 Death Cloud
Planeswalkers 3
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
3 Nature's Claim
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Sun Droplet
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Padeem, Consul of Innovation
1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Crumble to Dust
The thing I like about this list compared with others is that it is to the point and can do different things, even when the mana is disrupted.
I started writing a section for all of the matchups but the task seemed overwhelming and I gave up. As far as which versions of the deck handle different situations better or different decks even, it could be easier to write.
Modern
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BBBVampiresBBB
BURGDice FactoryGRUB
Check out the Primer!
Wanted to playin a modern league or something like that on mtgo. Part for fun, part for doing some of the analysis
"Well, then we will at least fight in the shadow"
"There is no glory to be gained in the kingdom of the dead!"
Post by Narah about unbanning Mind Twist in legacy and that this would be evil:
If you want to play on MTGO add me I'm HeskatetAS, playing Modern and Legacy
I've been playing this list at FNMs and side events at GPs, but I am planning on attending at least 3 Modern GPs with this in 2018, so I am seeking feedback, particularly on what you think about the sideboard in relation to tier 1 lists.
Lands 18
1 Academy Ruins
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Glimmervoid
3 Inventors' Fair
4 Spire of Industry
2 Tolaria West
Artifacts 20
4 Astral Cornucopia
1 Batterskull
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Everflowing Chalice
4 Mox Opal
1 Paradox Engine
1 Planar Portal
4 Surge Node
4 Coretapper
4 Glint-Nest Crane
1 Walking Ballista
Sorceries 11
4 Ancient Stirrings
3 Tezzeret's Gambit
4 Wildfire
Planeswalkers 2
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
2 Welding Jar
1 Witchbane Orb
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Nature's Claim
1 Crumble to Dust
Judge Tower: http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/80859
Modern
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BURGDice FactoryGRUB
Check out the Primer!
nice you had fun with the deck. May I ask against what you won your Matches and how good Deathcloud worked for you.
Maybe you could tell us something about the pro's and con's of the deck and if you would prefere any other cards over the ones you played, if this isn't too much asked (I'm just curious)
"Well, then we will at least fight in the shadow"
"There is no glory to be gained in the kingdom of the dead!"
Post by Narah about unbanning Mind Twist in legacy and that this would be evil:
If you want to play on MTGO add me I'm HeskatetAS, playing Modern and Legacy
I went 4-1 last night (again a friendly though) and I had much more varied wins.
First match was Storm, and it was a pretty easy game. He kept slow hands that were focused on Remanding my stuff, so he never really hit a critical mass to go off before I did. Both games were won with Tezzeret here. I could have gone off eith Elixir and Atlas, but Tezz was faster and it felt safer than letting another blue based combo deck draw cards.
1-0
Second match was against Affinity and he just had super fast draws before I could get anything online.
1-1
Third was elves. Game 1 I was able to Death Cloud for 5 but he had Chord for Hertiage Druid then Company in reaponse. That was gross. Game 2 I won with Wurmcoil stalling him out until I could go off and end it with Tezzeret. Game 3 he was Death Clouded for 4 wiping everything, leaving me with a Tezzeret and mana rocks.
2-1
Fourth was Jeskai. Game 1 I was able to combo off as his only counter was a Spell Queller, which does not hit Paradox Engine or Death Cloud for 12 Game 2 I lost to bolt snap bolt and Geist. I was one turn short of going off, or at least stabilizing. Game 3 was a turn 2 Wurmcoil and he didn't have a path.
3-1
Final match was against that Mardu Reveler deck. Game 1 he got stuck on one land and I just killed him with Volatic Key beats thanks to Tezz. He finally killed it and then I used Death Cloud as an overpriced Bolt. Game 2 he was stuck on one land as well, but he was banking on discard. Unfortunately for him I had Leyline, and T3 Wurmcoil beats again.
4-1
Overall I'd say most wins are with Atlas + Elixir/Tezzeret, followed by Wurmcoil and lately Death Cloud.
Against Elves and Affinity I really wished I was base red with Wildfire and Destructive Force just because it doesn't matter how wide they go. Death Cloud being a pseudo fireball and hand destruction was relevant though (plus I own 2 foils in paper) so I'm not sure which I prefer.
Tezzeret was really good too. In my first league I really undervalued him, but now I'm starting to see his power.