@Darktutor I did not count Ghostquarter. Sure in this MU it can be worth it to GQ yourself. But for example against Abzan you want to play T2 RIP but you wouldn't want to T2 GQ yourself. I'm definitely curious to hear if it works out like this for you though!
I don't mind playing RiP in T3+ against Abzan, they're not a GY combo deck. Against a Griselbrand deck, or a Gifts Storm I wouldn't mind the land loss. Against Abzan the Chalice is way more important than the RiP (The same is true for Gifts Storm), as it turns off Discard and their main sources of removal: Path and Push, leaving only 2 Decays and 1 Pulse (maybe 1 Dismember too), goyfs you can shrink a turn or 2 later. Without their 1 drops they can't really profit from Scooze and Lingering Souls on its own is slow. I don't think the difference between winning or losing in the Abzan MU comes down to dropping a RiP in T2.
Yeah definitely valid points. I will try it out when I'm back.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
Yeah definitely a good read. There is another thread called "Colorless Eldrazi Aggro" which is about this exact deck. This deck here is somewhere in between this Eldrazi Stompy deck and Death and Taxes.
Serum Powder might be correct in Eldrazi Stompy as it is much more dependant (and also profits much more!) from Temple than this one is. Serum Powder helps digging for this exact card (Eldrazi Temple). In this particular build I don't think Serum Powder is needed. Additionally we don't get the Eternal Scourge bonus from it. But it is certainly something to consider.
Hey thanks for the report! Nice to see that people are picking it up - even better if it works out for you!
I agree with most of your conclusions. Some inputs:
I often find myself in a race aswell (as you said more often than with DnT). That's why I'm playing a maindeck Aethersphere Harvester as he can block any other flier and swing the race with lifelink. I also like the Batterskull in your SB.
I like Copter as well. He seems like a good addition to this deck. Maybe two Copter instead of one Copter and one A. Harverster is correct. As for now I liked them both.
Gemstone Caverns is really good and I would not want to cut it. A one (maybe even two) of Sea Gate could definitely be good but it is less important than Gemstone IMO. I would recommend Horizon Canopies to combat flooding and then, if still needed and supported from the manabase, I would add Sea Gate.
As a general approach I don't think sideboarding Basics is correct. Either it is correct to maindeck them or not play them at all. But sideboarding them seems really narrow and not worth the SB slot. Especially not in a deck that can not fetch for those basics (besides GQ).
round 1 - Jund - L - Basically i drew the wrong half of the deck and never saw a RIP after boarding, so the Bob+double Finks package stomped me.
round 2 - Grixis control - W - Game 1 I basically stole a win on the play with a turn 1 Arbiter, my enemy scooped before even starting and show 2 fetches from his hand Game 2 I had a turn 2 Smasher on the draw and my opponent never found a terminate for it.
round 3 - Mono U Tron - W - I had a nut draw here on game 3 on the play. Turn 1 Thalia after SSG, turn 2 big Thalia after SSG, turn 3 TKS...
round 4 - BW tokens - W - Chalice is not really impressing in this matchup, my opponent never even used Fatal Push and sided out the Inquisitions. I sided to be a bit more grindy with the planeswalkers, Worship, Batterskull, and the Harvesters. I won the 3rd game by grinding him out, killing tokens with Displacer, and forging a soft lock with TKS.
The deck was a blast to play. Compared to regular DT builds this one feels a bit more agressive. I felt like I was in a race basically in every game. My 2 cents on the deck: Since we play a lot of lands and SSG the deck tends to run out of gas really fast. To combat this recomend using 2 Copters in the main (if your meta is not loaded with Kolaghan command decks) and 1-2 Sea gate wreckage aswell. The ability to draw some extra cards were more important for me than a slightly higher chance for a turn 1 play (with additional Gemstones).
Just few questions, have you thought of playing blinkmoth nexus or mutavault to help set off smuggler's copter and add few more threats? Also is aether vial too slow for this deck? They are great when people are playing blood moons and/or you don't have a hand with simian spirit guide in the opneing hand. I know aether vial isn't really that good later in the game but it has been a staple for death and taxes.
I have been tinkering with this list and plan on taking it to my FNM this week.
round 1 - Jund - L - Basically i drew the wrong half of the deck and never saw a RIP after boarding, so the Bob+double Finks package stomped me.
round 2 - Grixis control - W - Game 1 I basically stole a win on the play with a turn 1 Arbiter, my enemy scooped before even starting and show 2 fetches from his hand Game 2 I had a turn 2 Smasher on the draw and my opponent never found a terminate for it.
round 3 - Mono U Tron - W - I had a nut draw here on game 3 on the play. Turn 1 Thalia after SSG, turn 2 big Thalia after SSG, turn 3 TKS...
round 4 - BW tokens - W - Chalice is not really impressing in this matchup, my opponent never even used Fatal Push and sided out the Inquisitions. I sided to be a bit more grindy with the planeswalkers, Worship, Batterskull, and the Harvesters. I won the 3rd game by grinding him out, killing tokens with Displacer, and forging a soft lock with TKS.
The deck was a blast to play. Compared to regular DT builds this one feels a bit more agressive. I felt like I was in a race basically in every game. My 2 cents on the deck: Since we play a lot of lands and SSG the deck tends to run out of gas really fast. To combat this recomend using 2 Copters in the main (if your meta is not loaded with Kolaghan command decks) and 1-2 Sea gate wreckage aswell. The ability to draw some extra cards were more important for me than a slightly higher chance for a turn 1 play (with additional Gemstones).
Just few questions, have you thought of playing blinkmoth nexus or mutavault to help set off smuggler's copter and add few more threats? Also is aether vial too slow for this deck? They are great when people are playing blood moons and/or you don't have a hand with simian spirit guide in the opneing hand. I know aether vial isn't really that good later in the game but it has been a staple for death and taxes.
I have been tinkering with this list and plan on taking it to my FNM this week.
I am running 3 chalices because that's all I have right now, but this is the list I am looking at.
The manlands are definitely a consideration. As is Sea Gate Wreckage as Ruszmeteg proposed or Tec Edge etc. I do like Blinkmoth, mostly to take out Lilianas. There is only so much room for colorless lands though and Gemstone Caverns is the best one (after Eldrazi Temple and GQ) IMO. It has the most potential and gives you the most busted starts - what this deck is trying to do. If you feel like your manabase still supports more colorless lands - go for it.
As for vial: I posted this earlier: "You can't play with Vial as the mana curve is too diverse and because Vial is too slow for what this deck is trying to do. If you look at a DnT list you will note the many three drops it plays to take max advantage of Vial - this one has a different curve. You play less three drops but you want to go up to 5 for Smasher.
Your goal is to power out your lock pieces ahead of curve and not to play them one turn after normal curve. This deck also does not play Flickerwisp, Vials best friend."
Additonally you can't play too many bad topdecks "do nothing" cards. Between Chalice, Vial and even the Vehicles that's probably too many.
Pretty good! If you can power her out she has a high impact. She works nice with the other taxers. I like 2-3 atm. She is better in this deck than in normal DnT as you are more often in a race (where the creature ETB tapped ability shines), you can power it out and because you have less fliers which makes the creature ETB tapped ability more relevant as well.
I did some playtesting last night and you are correct on the vials, they don't work very well in the deck. I wasn't playing Gemstone cavern in the deck originally but that has changed, my question now, could you possibly build this deck like a sun and moon variant by adding leyline of sanctity? I know we don't have the moon, but basically controlling their land and playing chalice and leyline, it could be interesting. just a thought
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
I did some playtesting last night and you are correct on the vials, they don't work very well in the deck. I wasn't playing Gemstone cavern in the deck originally but that has changed, my question now, could you possibly build this deck like a sun and moon variant by adding leyline of sanctity? I know we don't have the moon, but basically controlling their land and playing chalice and leyline, it could be interesting. just a thought
Sorry for the late answer.
You mean Leyline in the SB? Leyline is a worthy SB consideration. (I certainly wouldn't want it MD) If your local meta is weak to this card it could be correct to play it. In an open meta I'm not sure if it is needed. It works better in Sun and Moon as it protects your Planeswalkers from burn spells or Valakut triggers. In this deck your creatures still die to them though.
Play vs Draw:
You still want to be on the play. Having Gemstone is just a nice way to offset the disadvantage when you are on the draw.
In general: I haven't had too much time to play so no bigger updates or reports. I will be playing during the next week with a tweaked list and report to you though.
Thanks @Stabilo for creating this primer! I too support the idea, that this deck - although similar to regular DnT versions and following kind of the same gameplan - utilizes a more radical approach and hence might well deserve a primer of it's own.
I've used Stabilo's decklist and given it a little different touch.
Decklist follows as soon as I've got time.
Please forgive me if the formatting doesn't work out. I'm writing this on my phone.
I couldn't get any ingame-experience yet as I'm still missing some cards. The denial looks more promising though if we manage to grab 'em by the lands. What do you think?
I've been playing a very similar list to stabilo's and that is mostly where you want to be. I'm currently 45-21 in League play on MTGO (only 2 5-0's thus far though). There are a few flex slots but deviations anywhere else makes this deck a worse D&T or E&T deck.
I think where the most flexibility lies is in the manabase. Do we add manlands? How many horizon canopies etc.
Jund, the new Ur storm, and BW E&T incidentally are my worst matchups so far. Let me know what you guys are seeing and how you guys combat.
Edit: my current list below (would up the chalice count if it wasn't so expensive... Bought my first 2 at $14 per)
Boom//Bust could be interesting in theory. I think you absolutely need the Reality Smashers though. 100% they are the finishers of this deck and don't get stalled behind chump blockers or lingering souls.
I would cut 2 Selfless Spirit, 2 Thalia 2.0 to see if you can make that work.
Thanks @Stabilo for creating this primer! I too support the idea, that this deck - although similar to regular DnT versions and following kind of the same gameplan - utilizes a more radical approach and hence might well deserve a primer of it's own.
I've used Stabilo's decklist and given it a little different touch.
Decklist follows as soon as I've got time.
Please forgive me if the formatting doesn't work out. I'm writing this on my phone.
I couldn't get any ingame-experience yet as I'm still missing some cards. The denial looks more promising though if we manage to grab 'em by the lands. What do you think?
Nice to see you trying it out. Interested to hear about your findings.
My thoughts on Boom/Bust
You would have to rework the manabase completly to make it work. Atm you have 4 red sources. To play Boom Bust you would need 13 at least.
I like the general idea of permission in creature form that Death and Taxes developed. Boom Bust does not actually advance your board state or pressure your opponent like a Thalia / Arbiter does.
Boom Bust is a spell which does not work well with Thalia
4 Flagstones do not work well with Arbiter
Boom Bust, Flagstone, Arbiter do not work well together
This deck can't abuse the Bust part of the card with something like Goblin Dark-Dwellers
So lets take a look at some theoretical situations:
1. You have Boom Bust, no Flagstones and are flooded. - Boom Bust is decent if you are ahead or even, bad when behind.
2. You have Boom Bust and Flagstones, opp is light on land and you are not under extreme pressure - Boom Bust is very good. That's the dream scenario.
3. You have Boom Bust, no Flagstones and are light / normal on lands - Boom Bust is a dead card.
4. You draw Boom Bust T5+ and are not ahead on board - Boom Bust is a dead card.
5. You draw Boom Bust T6+ and are ahead on board - Boom Bust wins you the game (But as would often any random card if you are ahead like stated before)
You can make many more scenarios like this. What I'm basically trying to say is that the card can be dead quite often. It's a two card combo which at best says "1r destroy target land". I don't think this is powerful enough. And sometimes the opponent is flooded and just doesn't care about this effect at all. In this situations Thalia or Arbiter still pressure them.
Personally I don't see it. But test it out if you feel so! I'm definitely curious to hear how it plays out for you Actual testing and theory crafting is often quite different.
I've been playing a very similar list to stabilo's and that is mostly where you want to be. I'm currently 45-21 in League play on MTGO (only 2 5-0's thus far though). There are a few flex slots but deviations anywhere else makes this deck a worse D&T or E&T deck.
I think where the most flexibility lies is in the manabase. Do we add manlands? How many horizon canopies etc.
Jund, the new Ur storm, and BW E&T incidentally are my worst matchups so far. Let me know what you guys are seeing and how you guys combat.
Edit: my current list below (would up the chalice count if it wasn't so expensive... Bought my first 2 at $14 per)
That are some good results bmchu168
I agree with you the mana base seems like one of the bigger open questions. This deck generally has a good MU against unfair decks of all kind or control decks and a tougher one against fair decks or creature synergy based decks (as you noted Jund and BW EnT). Merfolk seems tough as well.
As I see it the flexspots are following:
4th Thalia GT
3rd Thalia HC
Smuggler's Copter
Aethersphere Harvester
Blade Splicer
some SB slots
the mana base in general
Personally I will be toying around with those slots mostly as I am pretty set on the rest.
Sorry for the double post but I thought I would show you my current decklist. 4-1 yesterday. 5-0 today.
MUs:
4-1
2:0 Eldrazi Tron
2:0 Turns
2:0 Jund
2:0 Merfolk
0:2 Affinity
This is where I’m at. I really like this configuration. Deck feels very good to me.
So I tried the Cavern of Souls and I liked them. 3 feels possible but like a little stretch. Definitely had some awkward situations where I just wished for a Plains. I will continue running 3 atm to test it further but maybe 2 is sufficient. I like that Wastes is not in the deck anymore.
Maindeck cards I’m not sold on: Blade Splicer (going to try Aven Mindcensor in its slot)
SB cards I’m not sold on: Sword, both Elspeth (I actually opened the sword in a treasure chest and wanted to see how it plays out. Until now it's good enough to warrant further testing) I basically want some fantastic cards against BGx (and Control.deck) but I'm not sure which one is the correct choice.
I would like to play Engineered Explosives in the side (I want one or two ratchet bomb effects that are not as bad as ratchet bomb) but I’m not sure if it’s doable with the current manabase. Maybe if we reduce the basic plains count for some multicolor action (Aether hub, Battlefield forge).
@Stabil0 Your arguments have convinced me pretty much - I need to rethink the Boom/Bust plan... so sad.
Regarding your latest decklist, don't you feel any need for protection besides Chalice anymore? eg Spellskite/Selfless Spirit?
I second G_g53's suggestion. I run Sword of Light and Shadow in my mono-W DnT where it's doing very well in the Jund/Junk matchup.
Give a try to Sword of Light and Shadow. Makes creatures immune to path, decay, fatal push, dismember and also gets almost all of them outside of bolt range.
How do the 3 horizon canopies feel? I have pretty much the entire deck except for cavern of souls and 2nd and 3rd canopies. Isn't the first wastes good in case of blood moon?
Sword of light and Shadow seems good as well. Might be the better choice. I think the biggest problem with swords in general is the big mana investment and the blowout if they remove your creature in response to the equip.
3 Horizon Canopies feels good, 2 might be enough. Unlike with Battlefield forge where you very rarely have to take damage the lifeloss of Canopy does come up sometimes. I do like some number of Canopy very much though, it is a very powerful land. As you see in my first list in the primer I didn't play them back then. I think it's totally fine to start playing the deck without them and add them over time. Same goes for Cavern of Souls.
about Wastes
If you look at the color requirements only 8 of your spells need an actual colorless source. So even under a Blood Moon you are able to cast everything besides TKS and Smasher with a single plains.
I play two Celestial Purge in the SB which get rid of a resolved Blood Moon (and are great against Blood Moon decks in general).
Blood Moon isn't a heavily played card atm. No tier 1 or t2 deck plays it.
You can't fetch for basic Wastes. You don't even play Path to exile Maindeck and you don't bring them in against Blood Moon decks generally. This means the only way to have access to Wastes is by naturally draw it or GQ yourself before Blood Moon comes down.
Blood Moon decks generally play SSG so it is really difficult to anticipate when Blood Moon is coming down. You would have to leave up GQ on T2 to potentially get your wastes. But you want to tap out as much as possible with this deck, especially in the early turns and especially against Blood Moon decks where you are the aggressor.
You play Thalia(s) (and sometimes even Arbiter helps) to slow down a Blood Moon and you play TKS to Thoughtseize it away.
You already play enough basics to have targets when you get GQ or path to exiled.
Wastes is a weak card if it is not needed. A Mutavault in its slot will probably win you more games than you would win if you had a Wastes instead.
We have to keep the number of white producing lands high.
But if the meta changes and Blood Moon decks become frequent I could see the Wastes in the list.
@Stabil0 Your arguments have convinced me pretty much - I need to rethink the Boom/Bust plan... so sad.
Regarding your latest decklist, don't you feel any need for protection besides Chalice anymore? eg Spellskite/Selfless Spirit?
I second G_g53's suggestion. I run Sword of Light and Shadow in my mono-W DnT where it's doing very well in the Jund/Junk matchup.
I could see Spellskite over the Blade Splicer. Before the meta changed with Push and the bannings I liked some maindeck Spellskite in DnT as well. But now I think it got much weaker (no Infect, suicide zoo/bloo etc.). Chalice is an awesome protection spell. Compared to DnT your threats are more resilient to removal (4 TKS, 4 Smasher). With the banning of dredge there are much less anger of the gods around and regular Wrath of God isn't too much played either so I don't think Selfless is needed. Besides the control MU is already quite decent. Both are decent and I think Spellskite is a fine choice, especially if you know your local meta. But it is not proactive enough for me atm.
I would probably play Blinkmoth Nexus over Mutavault. These colorless lands are all fine (Tec Edge, Sea Gate, Blinkmoth, Mutavault etc.). Just keep in mind that you need sufficient white sources. With Cavern of souls it feels like the white sources count for non creature spells is already at its limits so I don't know what to cut for it.
Hi Stabilo,
Congrats on the last couple finishes...haven't been able to crack more than a 3-2 recently (currently holding at 48-24.667 win rate).
What do you think is the best turn 1 play in a Game 1 (play and draw) when you have a Thalia/Arbiter/Chalice in hand?
Against an unknown opponent Game 1:
on the play: Chalice>Arbiter>Thalia
on the draw: it depends on what you see. If you anticipate lots of removal I would still go for Chalice (for example if the opp goes for T1 raging ravine). If you don't I would play the one that seems to have a bigger impact on the opponent (you have to guess which deck he is on based on his first turn). It also depends on the rest of your hand. If you have GQ I would play Thalia and follow it up by Arbiter and GQ directly. If you have multiple Thalias I would play them first. If you have big Thalia I would play little Thalia into big Thalia into Arbiter (as fetchlands are coming into play tapped anyway so no direct activation possible) etc.
This is what I'm looking at for now. I'd probably include a 2nd horizon canopy instead of a Plains or Sea Gate Wreckage.
1/1 Split of Blinkmoth Nexus and Forbidding watchtower for colored mana reasons.
1/1 Split of caves of koilos and Battlefield forge due to 4 dismembers.
Actually considering having 2 Smugglers Copter and no Aethersphere Harvester, undecided on that one, need to actually play with the deck.
The 4th dismember slot can be a Phyrexian revoker, the 4th Thalia or a 25th Land.
A few slots on sideboard are still up for discussion.
Personally I wouldn't run the watchtower. I'm not a fan of tapped lands in general and especially not if you want to be as proactive as possible. A 1/5 isn't particularly impressive either.
With Caves of Koilos you are only actually saving one damage. Atm I'm trying a list with no Pain lands at all. If the deck functions without them it would be preferable to not play them. Consider Aether hub? The number of lands should certainly be reconsidered. Something from 24-26 seems right.
I don't like Revoker. I think he is not playable in Modern. Maindeck he is too bad and situational and in the Sideboard he is not needed as he doesn't improve the bad MUs.
I'm interested to hear how you feel about 4 Dismember. I would really like to play an additional removal spell Maindeck but the lifeloss is grim. Atm I'm testing Maindeck Spatial Contortion.
That are some good stats! Congrats. Which type of event are you playing?
In an attempt to smooth out the deck I'm trying to not run any double white cards at all (removing my Elspeth from the board), especially non-creature if we run the Cavern of Souls. For your citadel Siege you have 7 white sources + potentially GQ or Gemstone. You would need 18 to play it on T4 and still 14 on T7 (looking at Frank Karsten's table). That's just not possible with this mana base.
I'm also worried about the 3 Mutavaults being colorless sources. Did you not have any consistency problems?
Patrician's Scorn I have never seen this card before! What's it in for?
Unfortunately, I'm playing in xmage against random opponents. About the mana base, I agree with you about probabilities to work with citadel siege at turn 4. It is really strong, so I should work a bit to make it consistently on turn 4.
About Mutavault, it is really necessary to push damage fast and keep pressure when your board is starting to decay. I'd go down to 1 perhaps to correct my mana base properly.
I had a few problems just now because of only 7 white sources. I will work with 25 lands to consistently drop 4 manas when 1 of them is not an eldrazi temple.
Patrician's Scorn is come against blood moon decks, worship, bogles (I know we have chalices) and merfolks.
Quick questions. Why the citadel siege and Patrician's scorn? Are the 3 caverns of souls necessary or would some land that can draw late in the game be better?
Cavern of souls could go down to 2, but Mutavaults proved to be very strong and I'm not sold on going less, but I'm not going to be stubborn if it'd work better to "coloring" my mana base. About card draw, I wasn't ever capable of using Sea gate because my hand never gets empty. Perhaps, a couple horizon canopies to cycle into more cards may be better.
Citadel Siege is a trump card most of the time I bring them in. It works very well with any creature in my deck making them big or it taps emrakul (TTB'ed (remembering that THC always dies with Anger or Sudden Shock) or Lightning bolt when I don't have Chalice of the Void), opposing Reality Smashers.
Patrician's Scorn is here to deal with multiple Spreading Seas, blood moons, randomenchantmentdecks. Also, I can cast a Thalia/Leonin, keep priority and cast it. It's not a catch'all card, I know. But I'm happy for now. I'll test more...
And just for the record, I lost 2 just now. My losses were to Titanshift (TTB~>Emrakul) and Kiki-evolution.
Anyone else pretty much auto-loses to D&T with this deck? 1-5 against D&T. The 1 win was against the Mono White version but the BW E&T absolutely obliterates this deck.
Unfortunately, I'm playing in xmage against random opponents. About the mana base, I agree with you about probabilities to work with citadel siege at turn 4. It is really strong, so I should work a bit to make it consistently on turn 4.
About Mutavault, it is really necessary to push damage fast and keep pressure when your board is starting to decay. I'd go down to 1 perhaps to correct my mana base properly.
I had a few problems just now because of only 7 white sources. I will work with 25 lands to consistently drop 4 manas when 1 of them is not an eldrazi temple.
Patrician's Scorn is come against blood moon decks, worship, bogles (I know we have chalices) and merfolks.
Quick questions. Why the citadel siege and Patrician's scorn? Are the 3 caverns of souls necessary or would some land that can draw late in the game be better?
Cavern of souls could go down to 2, but Mutavaults proved to be very strong and I'm not sold on going less, but I'm not going to be stubborn if it'd work better to "coloring" my mana base. About card draw, I wasn't ever capable of using Sea gate because my hand never gets empty. Perhaps, a couple horizon canopies to cycle into more cards may be better.
Citadel Siege is a trump card most of the time I bring them in. It works very well with any creature in my deck making them big or it taps emrakul (TTB'ed (remembering that THC always dies with Anger or Sudden Shock) or Lightning bolt when I don't have Chalice of the Void), opposing Reality Smashers.
Patrician's Scorn is here to deal with multiple Spreading Seas, blood moons, randomenchantmentdecks. Also, I can cast a Thalia/Leonin, keep priority and cast it. It's not a catch'all card, I know. But I'm happy for now. I'll test more...
And just for the record, I lost 2 just now. My losses were to Titanshift (TTB~>Emrakul) and Kiki-evolution.
I think looking at mana bases from a theoretical standpoint helps quite a bit as it allows us to look past (good or bad) variance that we experience in playing.
I did like 25 lands with some Horizon Canopies. They seem perfect to smooth out the draws. I did not miss Sea Gate too much either. I think it is better in regular DnT as Vial helps greatly in deploying your threats. Out of all the possible colorless utility lands Mutavault, Nexus and Tec Edge seem like the best for this deck imo.
I think bringing in Patrician Scorn against Merfolk is a trap. It's like when they bring in Stony against DnT. What you actually want is removal of any kind.
You should never loose to Bogles with your configuration of the deck anyway. Between Chalice, your 3 MD Spellskite and the 2 Blessed Alliance in your SB
this should be a free win already.
I have not yet run into an opposing Worship. If you do I would go for the Displacer / TKS combo and mill them.
Personally I wouldn't run the watchtower. I'm not a fan of tapped lands in general and especially not if you want to be as proactive as possible. A 1/5 isn't particularly impressive either.
With Caves of Koilos you are only actually saving one damage. Atm I'm trying a list with no Pain lands at all. If the deck functions without them it would be preferable to not play them. Consider Aether hub? The number of lands should certainly be reconsidered. Something from 24-26 seems right.
I don't like Revoker. I think he is not playable in Modern. Maindeck he is too bad and situational and in the Sideboard he is not needed as he doesn't improve the bad MUs.
I'm interested to hear how you feel about 4 Dismember. I would really like to play an additional removal spell Maindeck but the lifeloss is grim. Atm I'm testing Maindeck Spatial Contortion.
The watchtower is only relevant due to Vehicles. I see it as a 'colored' Mutavault/Nexus. I am at 24 lands now, of which 11 + 3 (gemstone caverns) can make white mana. If I had more Horizon canopy/ Cavern of souls, I'd change the watchtower for mutavault/blinkmoth.
Aether Hub is a consideration, but I want a constant white source. There might some energy sinergy with the aethersphere harvester and aether hub though.
Revoker is a creature version of needle. It can stop any planeswalker (Karn, lili, etc), equipment, walking balista, etc etc. Maybe needle is just better, but I come from a lot of Junk CoCo where chording for the hate cards have vial and Death and taxes builds with vials. Without being able to chord or so, I cant stop a random lightning storm or ugin activation at instant speed. Losing all these tricks is a huge point against, thanks for bringing that up. The more I think about it, the more I like needle instead. Oblivion ring is also a possibility, more reactive though (but more versatile)
The 2nd painland slot is not a closed deal. If I was going for 2-3 dismember, I'd stick with battlefield forge only.
Selfless spirit, ethersworn canonist and eidolon of rhetoric are other cards I'm looking at for the sideboard. Maybe extra warping wails help since they can stop from anger to scapeshift, wraths and expertises. Unfortunately, both through the breach and goryos vengeance are instants :/
Maybe straight up plains is just better than Aether hub. Quite possible as we have many incidental colorless sources, especially with cavern of souls. The interaction with Aethersphere harvester should not be something to count on.
I think this deck needs a SB with the following:
Some RIP, some Stony, removal or generally answers (Path, Spatial Contortion, Dismember, Ghostly Prison, Worship, Ratchet Bomb, Engineered Explosives, Blessed Alliance etc.) to creature strategies (DnT, Merfolk, Bant Spirits, Abzan Company, Affinity etc.) and some help against BGx, if possible something against Valakut.deck and some kind of Disenchant is nice to have as well.
This means something like this:
2-3 RIP
2-3 Stony
2-4 Path
1-2 Celestial Purge (personal favorite)
2-4 creature aggro cards (Worship, Ghostly, Ratchet Bomb, Dismember etc.)
1-2 against BGx
x Flexspots
What it does not need is anything against AdNauseam, Tron, Additional Storm hate besides removal or RIP, something only for Burn (BFT) or something to combat these unfair decks (Grishoalbrand). The MD is already well suited for these MUs and Stony and RIP are help enough.
Anyone else pretty much auto-loses to D&T with this deck? 1-5 against D&T. The 1 win was against the Mono White version but the BW E&T absolutely obliterates this deck.
I have found the MU to be not great but not horrible either. I always lost or won in three close games. Side out: 4 Chalice 4 Arbiter 0-4 Thalia. Side in: all your removal and all your trump cards (Elspeth, Sword of light and shadow or whatever card of these type you are playing.) Good cards in this MU: all your Eldrazi, removal and Aethersphere Harvester. Save removal for Flickerwisp or Displacer if the game goes long. Being aggressive is not so important in this MU. Watch your lifetotal and try not to get blown out with Tidehollow Sculler into Strangler.
Yeah definitely valid points. I will try it out when I'm back.
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 Eternal Scourge
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
2 Endless One
1 Matter Reshaper
Artifacts (10)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Serum Powder
2 Smuggler’s Copter
4 Dismember
Lands (23)
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Blinkmoth Nexus
2 Mutavault
3 Sea Gate Wreckage
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Wastes
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Spatial Contortion
3 Ratchet Bomb
2 Pithing Needle
2 Gut Shot
Serum Powder seems like a pretty good choice. It helps you find your Temples and Gemstone Caverns more consistently.
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Serum Powder might be correct in Eldrazi Stompy as it is much more dependant (and also profits much more!) from Temple than this one is. Serum Powder helps digging for this exact card (Eldrazi Temple). In this particular build I don't think Serum Powder is needed. Additionally we don't get the Eternal Scourge bonus from it. But it is certainly something to consider.
I agree with most of your conclusions. Some inputs:
Just few questions, have you thought of playing blinkmoth nexus or mutavault to help set off smuggler's copter and add few more threats? Also is aether vial too slow for this deck? They are great when people are playing blood moons and/or you don't have a hand with simian spirit guide in the opneing hand. I know aether vial isn't really that good later in the game but it has been a staple for death and taxes.
I have been tinkering with this list and plan on taking it to my FNM this week.
4 Aether Vial
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Smuggler's Copter
Creature
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Reality Smasher
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Dismember
Land
3 Aether Hub
3 Battlefield Forge
3 Blinkmoth Nexus
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Mutavault
6 Plains
3 stony silence
2 rest in peace
3 path to exile
1 Aethersphere Harvester
1 worship
1 grafdigger's cage
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 disenchant
I am running 3 chalices because that's all I have right now, but this is the list I am looking at.
The manlands are definitely a consideration. As is Sea Gate Wreckage as Ruszmeteg proposed or Tec Edge etc. I do like Blinkmoth, mostly to take out Lilianas. There is only so much room for colorless lands though and Gemstone Caverns is the best one (after Eldrazi Temple and GQ) IMO. It has the most potential and gives you the most busted starts - what this deck is trying to do. If you feel like your manabase still supports more colorless lands - go for it.
As for vial: I posted this earlier: "You can't play with Vial as the mana curve is too diverse and because Vial is too slow for what this deck is trying to do. If you look at a DnT list you will note the many three drops it plays to take max advantage of Vial - this one has a different curve. You play less three drops but you want to go up to 5 for Smasher.
Your goal is to power out your lock pieces ahead of curve and not to play them one turn after normal curve. This deck also does not play Flickerwisp, Vials best friend."
Additonally you can't play too many bad topdecks "do nothing" cards. Between Chalice, Vial and even the Vehicles that's probably too many.
Pretty good! If you can power her out she has a high impact. She works nice with the other taxers. I like 2-3 atm. She is better in this deck than in normal DnT as you are more often in a race (where the creature ETB tapped ability shines), you can power it out and because you have less fliers which makes the creature ETB tapped ability more relevant as well.
So do you perfer to be on the play with Gemstones in the deck and abusing the serum powder?
The author of the article is on MTGS; you can find his profile here. I'm sure he'd be happy to answer your questions if you PM'd him.
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Sorry for the late answer.
You mean Leyline in the SB? Leyline is a worthy SB consideration. (I certainly wouldn't want it MD) If your local meta is weak to this card it could be correct to play it. In an open meta I'm not sure if it is needed. It works better in Sun and Moon as it protects your Planeswalkers from burn spells or Valakut triggers. In this deck your creatures still die to them though.
Play vs Draw:
You still want to be on the play. Having Gemstone is just a nice way to offset the disadvantage when you are on the draw.
In general:
I haven't had too much time to play so no bigger updates or reports. I will be playing during the next week with a tweaked list and report to you though.
Thanks @Stabilo for creating this primer! I too support the idea, that this deck - although similar to regular DnT versions and following kind of the same gameplan - utilizes a more radical approach and hence might well deserve a primer of it's own.
I've used Stabilo's decklist and given it a little different touch.
Decklist follows as soon as I've got time.
Please forgive me if the formatting doesn't work out. I'm writing this on my phone.
EDIT:
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Selfless Spirit
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thought-Knot Seer
Instant (3)
3 Dismember
4 Chalice of the Void
Land (24)
4 Battlefield Forge
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Plains
1 Wastes
4 Boom // Bust
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Ghostly Prison
4 Path to Exile
2 Rest in Peace
2 Spellskite
2 Stony Silence
1 Warping Wail
I couldn't get any ingame-experience yet as I'm still missing some cards. The denial looks more promising though if we manage to grab 'em by the lands. What do you think?
Legacy: Death&Taxes (almost there)
EDH: Squee, Goblin Nabob / Phelddagrif
I think where the most flexibility lies is in the manabase. Do we add manlands? How many horizon canopies etc.
Jund, the new Ur storm, and BW E&T incidentally are my worst matchups so far. Let me know what you guys are seeing and how you guys combat.
Edit: my current list below (would up the chalice count if it wasn't so expensive... Bought my first 2 at $14 per)
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/eldrazi-staxes/
I would cut 2 Selfless Spirit, 2 Thalia 2.0 to see if you can make that work.
Nice to see you trying it out. Interested to hear about your findings.
My thoughts on Boom/Bust
2. You have Boom Bust and Flagstones, opp is light on land and you are not under extreme pressure - Boom Bust is very good. That's the dream scenario.
3. You have Boom Bust, no Flagstones and are light / normal on lands - Boom Bust is a dead card.
4. You draw Boom Bust T5+ and are not ahead on board - Boom Bust is a dead card.
5. You draw Boom Bust T6+ and are ahead on board - Boom Bust wins you the game (But as would often any random card if you are ahead like stated before)
You can make many more scenarios like this. What I'm basically trying to say is that the card can be dead quite often. It's a two card combo which at best says "1r destroy target land". I don't think this is powerful enough. And sometimes the opponent is flooded and just doesn't care about this effect at all. In this situations Thalia or Arbiter still pressure them.
That are some good results bmchu168
I agree with you the mana base seems like one of the bigger open questions. This deck generally has a good MU against unfair decks of all kind or control decks and a tougher one against fair decks or creature synergy based decks (as you noted Jund and BW EnT). Merfolk seems tough as well.
As I see it the flexspots are following:
MUs:
4-1
2:0 Eldrazi Tron
2:0 Turns
2:0 Jund
2:0 Merfolk
0:2 Affinity
5-0
2:0 Valakut
2:0 Jund
2:1 Uw Control
2:1 Affinity
2:1 Affinity
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Blade Splicer
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Dismember
1 Aethersphere Harvester
1 Smuggler's Copter
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Cavern of souls
3 Horizon Canopy
2 Battlefield Forge
1 Eiganjo Castle
5 Plains
4 Path to exile
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Celestial Purge
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Worship
1 Ratchet bomb
This is where I’m at. I really like this configuration. Deck feels very good to me.
So I tried the Cavern of Souls and I liked them. 3 feels possible but like a little stretch. Definitely had some awkward situations where I just wished for a Plains. I will continue running 3 atm to test it further but maybe 2 is sufficient. I like that Wastes is not in the deck anymore.
Maindeck cards I’m not sold on: Blade Splicer (going to try Aven Mindcensor in its slot)
SB cards I’m not sold on: Sword, both Elspeth (I actually opened the sword in a treasure chest and wanted to see how it plays out. Until now it's good enough to warrant further testing) I basically want some fantastic cards against BGx (and Control.deck) but I'm not sure which one is the correct choice.
I would like to play Engineered Explosives in the side (I want one or two ratchet bomb effects that are not as bad as ratchet bomb) but I’m not sure if it’s doable with the current manabase. Maybe if we reduce the basic plains count for some multicolor action (Aether hub, Battlefield forge).
@Stabil0 Your arguments have convinced me pretty much - I need to rethink the Boom/Bust plan... so sad.
Regarding your latest decklist, don't you feel any need for protection besides Chalice anymore? eg Spellskite/Selfless Spirit?
I second G_g53's suggestion. I run Sword of Light and Shadow in my mono-W DnT where it's doing very well in the Jund/Junk matchup.
Also, no more Mutavaults? Have you considered Sea Gate Wreckage?
Legacy: Death&Taxes (almost there)
EDH: Squee, Goblin Nabob / Phelddagrif
Sword of light and Shadow seems good as well. Might be the better choice. I think the biggest problem with swords in general is the big mana investment and the blowout if they remove your creature in response to the equip.
3 Horizon Canopies feels good, 2 might be enough. Unlike with Battlefield forge where you very rarely have to take damage the lifeloss of Canopy does come up sometimes. I do like some number of Canopy very much though, it is a very powerful land. As you see in my first list in the primer I didn't play them back then. I think it's totally fine to start playing the deck without them and add them over time. Same goes for Cavern of Souls.
about Wastes
I could see Spellskite over the Blade Splicer. Before the meta changed with Push and the bannings I liked some maindeck Spellskite in DnT as well. But now I think it got much weaker (no Infect, suicide zoo/bloo etc.). Chalice is an awesome protection spell. Compared to DnT your threats are more resilient to removal (4 TKS, 4 Smasher). With the banning of dredge there are much less anger of the gods around and regular Wrath of God isn't too much played either so I don't think Selfless is needed. Besides the control MU is already quite decent. Both are decent and I think Spellskite is a fine choice, especially if you know your local meta. But it is not proactive enough for me atm.
I would probably play Blinkmoth Nexus over Mutavault. These colorless lands are all fine (Tec Edge, Sea Gate, Blinkmoth, Mutavault etc.). Just keep in mind that you need sufficient white sources. With Cavern of souls it feels like the white sources count for non creature spells is already at its limits so I don't know what to cut for it.
Congrats on the last couple finishes...haven't been able to crack more than a 3-2 recently (currently holding at 48-24.667 win rate).
What do you think is the best turn 1 play in a Game 1 (play and draw) when you have a Thalia/Arbiter/Chalice in hand?
Against an unknown opponent Game 1:
on the play: Chalice>Arbiter>Thalia
on the draw: it depends on what you see. If you anticipate lots of removal I would still go for Chalice (for example if the opp goes for T1 raging ravine). If you don't I would play the one that seems to have a bigger impact on the opponent (you have to guess which deck he is on based on his first turn). It also depends on the rest of your hand. If you have GQ I would play Thalia and follow it up by Arbiter and GQ directly. If you have multiple Thalias I would play them first. If you have big Thalia I would play little Thalia into big Thalia into Arbiter (as fetchlands are coming into play tapped anyway so no direct activation possible) etc.
My current list is:
3 Cavern of Souls
1 Eiganjo Castle
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ghost Quarter
6 Plains
3 Mutavault
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Dismember
CREATURES
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Spellskite
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Citadel Siege
3 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Celestial Purge
2 Patrician's Scorn
Personally I wouldn't run the watchtower. I'm not a fan of tapped lands in general and especially not if you want to be as proactive as possible. A 1/5 isn't particularly impressive either.
With Caves of Koilos you are only actually saving one damage. Atm I'm trying a list with no Pain lands at all. If the deck functions without them it would be preferable to not play them. Consider Aether hub? The number of lands should certainly be reconsidered. Something from 24-26 seems right.
I don't like Revoker. I think he is not playable in Modern. Maindeck he is too bad and situational and in the Sideboard he is not needed as he doesn't improve the bad MUs.
I'm interested to hear how you feel about 4 Dismember. I would really like to play an additional removal spell Maindeck but the lifeloss is grim. Atm I'm testing Maindeck Spatial Contortion.
That are some good stats! Congrats. Which type of event are you playing?
In an attempt to smooth out the deck I'm trying to not run any double white cards at all (removing my Elspeth from the board), especially non-creature if we run the Cavern of Souls. For your citadel Siege you have 7 white sources + potentially GQ or Gemstone. You would need 18 to play it on T4 and still 14 on T7 (looking at Frank Karsten's table). That's just not possible with this mana base.
I'm also worried about the 3 Mutavaults being colorless sources. Did you not have any consistency problems?
Patrician's Scorn I have never seen this card before! What's it in for?
About Mutavault, it is really necessary to push damage fast and keep pressure when your board is starting to decay. I'd go down to 1 perhaps to correct my mana base properly.
I had a few problems just now because of only 7 white sources. I will work with 25 lands to consistently drop 4 manas when 1 of them is not an eldrazi temple.
Patrician's Scorn is come against blood moon decks, worship, bogles (I know we have chalices) and merfolks.
EDIT:
Cavern of souls could go down to 2, but Mutavaults proved to be very strong and I'm not sold on going less, but I'm not going to be stubborn if it'd work better to "coloring" my mana base. About card draw, I wasn't ever capable of using Sea gate because my hand never gets empty. Perhaps, a couple horizon canopies to cycle into more cards may be better.
Citadel Siege is a trump card most of the time I bring them in. It works very well with any creature in my deck making them big or it taps emrakul (TTB'ed (remembering that THC always dies with Anger or Sudden Shock) or Lightning bolt when I don't have Chalice of the Void), opposing Reality Smashers.
Patrician's Scorn is here to deal with multiple Spreading Seas, blood moons, random enchantment decks. Also, I can cast a Thalia/Leonin, keep priority and cast it. It's not a catch'all card, I know. But I'm happy for now. I'll test more...
And just for the record, I lost 2 just now. My losses were to Titanshift (TTB~>Emrakul) and Kiki-evolution.
I think looking at mana bases from a theoretical standpoint helps quite a bit as it allows us to look past (good or bad) variance that we experience in playing.
I did like 25 lands with some Horizon Canopies. They seem perfect to smooth out the draws. I did not miss Sea Gate too much either. I think it is better in regular DnT as Vial helps greatly in deploying your threats. Out of all the possible colorless utility lands Mutavault, Nexus and Tec Edge seem like the best for this deck imo.
I think bringing in Patrician Scorn against Merfolk is a trap. It's like when they bring in Stony against DnT. What you actually want is removal of any kind.
You should never loose to Bogles with your configuration of the deck anyway. Between Chalice, your 3 MD Spellskite and the 2 Blessed Alliance in your SB
this should be a free win already.
I have not yet run into an opposing Worship. If you do I would go for the Displacer / TKS combo and mill them.
Maybe straight up plains is just better than Aether hub. Quite possible as we have many incidental colorless sources, especially with cavern of souls. The interaction with Aethersphere harvester should not be something to count on.
I think this deck needs a SB with the following:
Some RIP, some Stony, removal or generally answers (Path, Spatial Contortion, Dismember, Ghostly Prison, Worship, Ratchet Bomb, Engineered Explosives, Blessed Alliance etc.) to creature strategies (DnT, Merfolk, Bant Spirits, Abzan Company, Affinity etc.) and some help against BGx, if possible something against Valakut.deck and some kind of Disenchant is nice to have as well.
This means something like this:
2-3 RIP
2-3 Stony
2-4 Path
1-2 Celestial Purge (personal favorite)
2-4 creature aggro cards (Worship, Ghostly, Ratchet Bomb, Dismember etc.)
1-2 against BGx
x Flexspots
What it does not need is anything against AdNauseam, Tron, Additional Storm hate besides removal or RIP, something only for Burn (BFT) or something to combat these unfair decks (Grishoalbrand). The MD is already well suited for these MUs and Stony and RIP are help enough.
I have found the MU to be not great but not horrible either. I always lost or won in three close games. Side out: 4 Chalice 4 Arbiter 0-4 Thalia. Side in: all your removal and all your trump cards (Elspeth, Sword of light and shadow or whatever card of these type you are playing.) Good cards in this MU: all your Eldrazi, removal and Aethersphere Harvester. Save removal for Flickerwisp or Displacer if the game goes long. Being aggressive is not so important in this MU. Watch your lifetotal and try not to get blown out with Tidehollow Sculler into Strangler.