1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I think mindwrack demon is questionable due to trying not to punish yourself by reaching delirium. If you want a bigger flyer then tombstalker or desecration demon might be better answers. I'm a little surprised folks aren't mentioning gurmag angler as a possible fit. It's not as easy to enable delve with the heavier creature build, but a 1cc 5/5 is nice.
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I think mindwrack demon is questionable due to trying not to punish yourself by reaching delirium. If you want a bigger flyer then tombstalker or desecration demon might be better answers. I'm a little surprised folks aren't mentioning gurmag angler as a possible fit. It's not as easy to enable delve with the heavier creature build, but a 1cc 5/5 is nice.
Gurmag is good, but I feel like we want something with evasion of some sort to really make this deck stick. Otherwise Coco can just infinitely block with something like Kitchen Finks unless we got a way around it. That's why Relentless Dead is so good: it's a 2/2 with menace that can bring back zombies from the yard. Also, Gurmag is expensive without the delve, which makes bringing it back from the yard a bit more difficult.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I love the premise of the Zombie Fishy but he's too expensive, even with delve. And he has no evasion or way to stay alive unlike the other 5/5 options for four (a realistic delve/cast timetable) he's just so underwhelming.
As for Mindwrack Demon how would we reach delirium? The deck is all instants and creatures, even if we added fetches that's still leaves us where? Hopping someone countered one of three mortarpods? Or resolved one of three Drown in Sorrow/Killing wave? That seems more likely than not to cost us four life a turn, plus getting worse when it dies to instant speed removal.
I have played zombies since I started magic back when I was 8 in 97'. That being said, zombies were my first deck. I had competitive zombies in legacy, and have tried in modern for years...with little to no success. BW zombies is also an option with the inclusion of smallpox. I agree that UB is probably the best, but the protection zombies should be included somewhere in the 75. Stillmoon Cavalier, Stromgald Crusader, and Phyrexian Crusader should be considered for zombies in the sideboard at the very least. Considering all those cards make significant impacts on certain top tier decks. Also don't forget Lifebane Zombie as a possible inclusion. I feel the mid-range game is what we are trying to achieve, we just don't have enough fast zombies for a turn 4 clock. We should be getting the opponent within 10 health between turns 4-7. Anything more and we can't compete, and we won't be able to do it early considering our curve is mostly around 3cc creatures.
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Modern: B 8Rack RX Goblins BG Elves (Attempting) UBW Mill G Stompy UB Tezzerator
Legacy: W Stax
The thing is that when you start loading up on dudes you lose the utility of something else. What do you remove for one of the crusaders? Mortarpod I guess? But then I'd side out pod for something like damnation or leyline of the void and have some potent hate. You gain power against green and white but suffer against red and black. Versatility and recursion is where we gain card advantage, not just evasion. It's easy to suggest piling a ton of tribal zombie specialists into the deck and lose your recurring removal (mortarpod) or your rock (obliterator) or a pinger/lifegain (blood artist). I'm sure it's fun and probably pretty good. The list in the primer has really solid synergy and people should play a bunch of games with it before making suggestions.
Frankly I know I'm going to run relentless dead somewhere, but I'm not sure yet in place of what, or how many. Other than that I'm just playing games.
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We need the rest of the set spoiled to see what other zombies we actually get in innistrad. We know that modern doesn't have enough of the right lords to do a tribal deck like merfolk, so we need some other kind of strategy that can make use of the tribal synergies we have.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Something I started testing is subbing in 2 liliana of the veil for blood artist. The main reasons are that lotv is a better top deck to an open board, it's a destroyer of particular decks like control, it plays well with discard and our deck, more removal, distracted attacks for opp, essentially all around more potent. So far it's been a house like it always is.
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So the latest spoilers included Diergraf Colossus a 2/2 for 2B that comes into play with a +1/+1 counter for each zombie in the graveyard. In addition it gives a 2/2 zombie each time you cast a zombie spell.
It's a nice value play, I'd estimate it's a 3/3 most of the time, with a good portion of the time its a 4/4. I think it's too situational, if you play it early it dies to bolt (dismember, path, whatever) and you get no zombies, or you play it late, get a 5/5, and a 2/2 when you reanimate a gravecrawler. Where it just dies to mass removal. In a perfect world, this is reliably a 4/4, and that's where this is best.
It's cheap enough to play well with the new Relentless Dead, but at 3 mama, you can't afford it, a lord, lilliana, and messenger. Easy call for me because I don't have any Lily's. I think after this set rotates in I'll try it and relentless dead in place of mortarpod, blood artist, and one lord for 4 relentless dead, 3 colossus.
Guys, I hate to break it to you, but Geralf's Messenger is really not a good card. It comes into play tapped so it will do nothing the first turn; nothing when they bolt it, and nothing when it's still smaller than Goyf.
On the other hand, Diregraf Colossus is incredible.
From there we need to decide on direction. A green splash allows for Collected Company. A white splash for Tidehollow Sculler. We could also play Aether Vial and perhaps Thoughtseize. Maybe Death Baron to buff our horde.
This deck badly needs two-drops, because Zombies has historically had bad two-drops. Withered Wretch is an OK option, but I think Tidehollow Sculler is better. Therefore, I would opt to splash white before splashing any other color.
Then I would play Vial. Vial is just great in creature decks like this.
If we're playing Vial, I think it's safe to assume no Collected Company is in this deck, because those cards interact a little too much. But since we're in white, I think we should opt for Path to Exile instead of Thoughtseize as a support spell.
Are you sure you meant Geralf's Messenger when you said messenger wasn't a good card? It shocks opponents every time it comes into play, and trades positively with bolt due to undying. It also has tripple black for Gray Marchant devotion. Messenger is the second most powerful card in the deck.
Messenger and phantasmal image have won games for me, partly in card advantage, partly in damage, and partly in burn. Between the two that's 8 life just in burn. Since we don't draw cards much this deck needs to generate value. Right now its almost all from gravecrawler and messenger.
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Also, we really want to make sure we got our mana curve right on the zombies. I'd probably capstone the deck at CMC 4 with Kalitas. Also, Liliana, Heretical Healer should work pretty well in this deck since we probably will have at least one thing die to something at some point in the game, which will flip her and give us a discard + resurrection combo.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I think Liliana of the veil is the right PW if you want one. So powerful on her own, she shuts down some decks. Kalitas is interesting, but you need dudes. At 4cc obliterator can take over immediately, or at least act like ensnaring bridge for a couple turns. I think Kalitas can turn this into more of a combo aggro deck, which is more interesting and potentially explosive, so he certainly warrants testing.
Diregraf Colossus is super interesting. I really wanted to get grave titan to work but at 6cc it's just too much. I think colossus can fill that sort of void if paired with gravecrawler and relentless dead. What comes out?
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We have tons of options for those three colors, I think we all should start brainstorming some lists while using the list from the primer as an example
I think the only thing white does for us is exile effects and enchantment removal. Black kills everything, blue counters stuff, black sweeps robots, blue bounces enchantments, black makes bogles sac stuff, we already have hand disruption, and you can still side in leyline of sanctity with the opening gamble.
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This is a (very) rough list. Probably could use mainboard targeted discard. Not sure if Nameless Inversion cuts it as the lone removal spell, but it can take out smaller creatures (along with Compelling Deterence) to set up Fleshbag, who can recycle himself or trigger Relentless Dead. Dark Confidant is the only non-Zombie here, but he draws more Zombies so he isn't that much of a non-bo. I suppose he could be Blood Scrivener, but it's not really a great trade-off.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
Gurmag is good, but I feel like we want something with evasion of some sort to really make this deck stick. Otherwise Coco can just infinitely block with something like Kitchen Finks unless we got a way around it. That's why Relentless Dead is so good: it's a 2/2 with menace that can bring back zombies from the yard. Also, Gurmag is expensive without the delve, which makes bringing it back from the yard a bit more difficult.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
As for Mindwrack Demon how would we reach delirium? The deck is all instants and creatures, even if we added fetches that's still leaves us where? Hopping someone countered one of three mortarpods? Or resolved one of three Drown in Sorrow/Killing wave? That seems more likely than not to cost us four life a turn, plus getting worse when it dies to instant speed removal.
Modern:
B 8Rack
RX Goblins
BG Elves (Attempting)
UBW Mill
G Stompy
UB Tezzerator
Legacy:
W Stax
Frankly I know I'm going to run relentless dead somewhere, but I'm not sure yet in place of what, or how many. Other than that I'm just playing games.
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
It's a nice value play, I'd estimate it's a 3/3 most of the time, with a good portion of the time its a 4/4. I think it's too situational, if you play it early it dies to bolt (dismember, path, whatever) and you get no zombies, or you play it late, get a 5/5, and a 2/2 when you reanimate a gravecrawler. Where it just dies to mass removal. In a perfect world, this is reliably a 4/4, and that's where this is best.
It's cheap enough to play well with the new Relentless Dead, but at 3 mama, you can't afford it, a lord, lilliana, and messenger. Easy call for me because I don't have any Lily's. I think after this set rotates in I'll try it and relentless dead in place of mortarpod, blood artist, and one lord for 4 relentless dead, 3 colossus.
On the other hand, Diregraf Colossus is incredible.
I'd want to start with this creature base:
From there we need to decide on direction. A green splash allows for Collected Company. A white splash for Tidehollow Sculler. We could also play Aether Vial and perhaps Thoughtseize. Maybe Death Baron to buff our horde.
This deck badly needs two-drops, because Zombies has historically had bad two-drops. Withered Wretch is an OK option, but I think Tidehollow Sculler is better. Therefore, I would opt to splash white before splashing any other color.
Then I would play Vial. Vial is just great in creature decks like this.
So that gives us an additional:
If we're playing Vial, I think it's safe to assume no Collected Company is in this deck, because those cards interact a little too much. But since we're in white, I think we should opt for Path to Exile instead of Thoughtseize as a support spell.
So then... 4 Path to exile
That's 24 cards. Obviously we need more. I would then add 4 Death Baron to buff the team and do tricks with Vial. So 28.
From there, some number of Gary can fit into the deck. Sure, it's slow, but it's a powerful effect. Perhaps 2 is enough.
Is Korlash, Hero of I totally forget what a card we'd want to play here?
Clearly we need a few more good zombies to flesh out this deck. Maybe 2 Withered Wretch could go MD, as well.
Anyways, I think I'm homing in on something playable. Not Tier 1, but not Tier 8 either.
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Diregraf Colossus is super interesting. I really wanted to get grave titan to work but at 6cc it's just too much. I think colossus can fill that sort of void if paired with gravecrawler and relentless dead. What comes out?
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
White offers us mainboard: Path to Exile, Tidehollow Sculler, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben( maybe?)
White offers us sideboard: Stony Silence, Disenchant, Tempest of Light {Bogle's}, Celestial Purge, Kor Firewalker, Timely Reinforcements, and Leyline of Sanctity
We have tons of options for those three colors, I think we all should start brainstorming some lists while using the list from the primer as an example
Modern:
B 8Rack
RX Goblins
BG Elves (Attempting)
UBW Mill
G Stompy
UB Tezzerator
Legacy:
W Stax
Modern - Cheeri0s (building), Belcher (building), Lantern (building), UW Control (building)
RIP Magic Duels. Wizards will regret what they did to you.
Modern:
B 8Rack
RX Goblins
BG Elves (Attempting)
UBW Mill
G Stompy
UB Tezzerator
Legacy:
W Stax
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
Inversion can also be cast from the yard with haakon, stromgald scourge in play.
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
That is simply not true. You do have to build around it a bit, but for those that are using aether vial or a discard engine, haakon is a house.
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
4x Gravecrawler
4x Relentless Dead
4x Dark Confidant
4x Diregraf Colossus
4x Fleshbag Marauder
4x Diregraf Captain
1x Skaab Ruinator
4x Æther Vial
4x Nameless Inversion
4x Compelling Deterrence
2x Ghoulcaller's Chant
Lands (21)
5x Swamp
4x Polluted Delta
4x Darkslick Shores
4x Mutavault
2x Watery Grave
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Island
This is a (very) rough list. Probably could use mainboard targeted discard. Not sure if Nameless Inversion cuts it as the lone removal spell, but it can take out smaller creatures (along with Compelling Deterence) to set up Fleshbag, who can recycle himself or trigger Relentless Dead. Dark Confidant is the only non-Zombie here, but he draws more Zombies so he isn't that much of a non-bo. I suppose he could be Blood Scrivener, but it's not really a great trade-off.
Also, why did choose Compelling Deterrence over something like Vapor Snag ?