Modified the list and this is what I'm going to proxy up once the set comes out(going to wait for relentless price to go down). will try running hedron crab over thought scour too.
From goldfishing this deck, I think it gets a pretty good board up around turn 3-4 with around 3-4 zombies. However, I am wondering if it is just a worse version of dredgevine?
From goldfishing this deck, I think it gets a pretty good board up around turn 3-4 with around 3-4 zombies. However, I am wondering if it is just a worse version of dredgevine?
It looks weak to graveyard hate. Which is the advantage of zombies over dredgevine. The deck needs to be playable without the graveyard, and then use the graveyard to put it over the top. But if it goldfishes well, I could just be wrong. You'll have to tell us how it plays!
So, what's everyone's thoughts on æther Vial? Merfolk uses it to success because their curve tops at three, as does the proposed decks here. You have Relentless Dead, Bloodghast and Lotleth Troll as the good two drops. Relentless Dead even returns to your hand if you vial it in to block, just to be vial'd in next turn. Tymaret, the Murder King and Tidehollow Sculler also exists if you want solid splashes.
IMO it's nothing more but an upgraded Reassembling Skeleton, which has never been played in Modern.
I expect Nether Traitor to do even more in his slot.
Maybe i'm totally wrong 'bout this one, but i just see some minor synergies and a lot of drawbacks.
I'm even more onto the Stitchwing Skaab train because it's easier to recurr once it hits the bin.
As a 1/1 though you get far more value from Blood Artist and Diregraf Captain which both get a point in each time something dies, and that point can't be blocked, even if it does, admittedly, have shadow. The only situations where Nether Traitor is better than those cards is when it reanimates and attacks unblocked for at least three turns which seems bad. Relentless Dead is good because not only is it a zombie, it costs two mana. Zombies needed a good two mana creature. Having menace alone would make the card almost good enough, but it's two abilities are what put it over the top, bringing back creatures to keep the pressure on after a board wipe, or just being hard to kill. But what to take out is hard, I've played this deck so much that every card in it I can point to and say "this has won me games though!"
Merfolk uses it to success because their curve tops at three
They top the curve with 3-4 Master of Waves, to be accurate.
Aether Vial must allow multiple shenanigans and synergies to be worth it in general. Merfolk plays 10-12 lords, breaks Silvergill Adept's drawback, plays Phantasmal Image and offers a possible Cursecatcher's Spike impression.
If the strongest cards fit in the recipe for a good Vial deck, go for it. I like the fact it brings back all these tapped zombies at end of turn, it really cahnges the tempo of the deck, possibly for the better.
the Card i dislike the most here is Relentless Dead.
IMO it's nothing more but an upgraded Reassembling Skeleton, which has never been played in Modern.
You're tough with the card. The comparison doesn't stand at all. Relentless Dead fits exactly in a Vial variant: you put it on the battlefield at instant speed, and with your mana up, you buy some guys back. That can happen in combat, so you chump on purpose to trigger the ability.
The very good point is you can get back other copies of itself in the graveyard and create a soft loop. It's grindy, so it's gonna be useless in the fastest MUs, but the card offers potential CA in the mid term. Nether Traitor is a fairer comparison, but that one ain't agressive enough, doesn't pick up other zombies, isn't a zombie itself,... well RD wins the fight once again for such a deck. Now is it worth playing in a zombie deck, I don't have the answer yet.
IMO it's nothing more but an upgraded Reassembling Skeleton, which has never been played in Modern.
I expect Nether Traitor to do even more in his slot.
Maybe i'm totally wrong 'bout this one, but i just see some minor synergies and a lot of drawbacks.
I'm even more onto the Stitchwing Skaab train because it's easier to recurr once it hits the bin.
I mean, I guess you could say it's an upgraded reassembling skeleton. But it's one hell of an upgrade. It's also a zombie. Harder to block, and can bring back other zombies; specifically, key zombies that don't have recursion of their own.
He's very good at what zombies wants to do, at an uncontested mana cost. If he cost 3, there's room for argument. But there is no mono-black staple 2cmc zombie.
Maybe i should get more into Vengevine territory with my BUG List?
Also Stitchwing Skaab has been really great in my initial testings.
It bumps Bloodghast and Prized Amalgam to the bin, which gives my plenty of Gas in the first couple of turns.
Yea, I see what you're saying. If everything you have comes back on its own, relentless dead doesn't bring enough to the table. I do think dredgevine is more of the direction you're going for. Like horse suit dog guy said, the deck we're going for wants to use the graveyard without entirely relying on it.
I've tried goldfishing with my own take on this deck idea and I've found playing against Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet in Jund is particularly annoying. He makes Tragic Slip pretty difficult for us to use. I'm wondering if running Dismember or Murderous Cut might be an option. Also Scavenging Ooze is pretty annoying but what can you do
Maybe an obvious-to-answer question, but why isn't Blasting Station preferred to Mortarpod ?
The station looks easier to use (:1mana: more to cast but no mana investment to use afterwards). In a variant where nearly every creature is resilient, we might have some interesting turns, untapping Station several times.
It makes me wonder if Bone Splinters wouldn't be an actual good card in a super resilient shell. The card jumped in my mind while I was thinking of how to abuse Relentless Dead.
If I want to recur, say, Geralf's Messenger, I need 3 mana open when RD dies (even 4 if I want RD to come back). Problem is decent cards like Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet and Tymaret, the Murder King, cost 3 and 2 mana to activate. Unless we're in mid/late game, I'll never have the mana. Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx should help.
Numbers are rather random, the draft is here to propose a direction for the deck (be all-in might not be viable though). Some cards may just be worse than alternate options (Tym, Kali, Imp, Splinters). I simply have in mind the deck must be able to deal with Affi, Infect and Coco decks, and have an evasive way to reach the opponent, also because of Ensnaring Bridge, Ghostly Prison and such hate cards that wreck tribal decks.
Edit: Tym deals to players only, seems bad actually.
I'm not sure if this is the only reason, but I assume one of the reasons to run Mortarpod is because of Diregraf Captain. With Mortarpod the creature deals the damage so it turns into a psudo removal spell when paired with deathtouch.
Mortarpod can block, and costing two means it can come out multiple turns earlier than blasting station.
There's only a few cases where you'd play station over messenger, captain, or dead+1mana. So you end up casting it on turn five, after you've emptied your glut of 3-costs plays. I agree, nine times out of ten I'd rather have a station than a pod but it's the opposite for opportunities to cast it compared to pod.
Banned list update:
Eldrazi gone. Good riddance, and lucky us.
Sword in: Life gain? Ugh. Well, at least blood artist enjoys it when opponents trade multiple guys in combat. Oh and Leyline of Singularity.
There are so many different threads for zombies I've put together a gy centric list that I've really been enjoying and having early success with, I'd love feedback and discussion about choices if anyone is interested
There are so many different threads for zombies I've put together a gy centric list that I've really been enjoying and having early success with, I'd love feedback and discussion about choices if anyone is interested
Yes, but we're the best thread on zombies.
As for your list: Don't bother with Urborg. All your lands (except two) tap for black anyways, and this just gives you two less lands if someone plays a Blood Moon. Second, we had a discussion in the thread earlier about Cutthroat over Blood Artist and the idea is there's so little that you can trade with/opportunities to attack with cutthroat that you would be better off using Blood Artist because it triggers on opponents creatures. Lastly, you should really find a home for Geralf's Messenger which is one of the best zombies in the game right now.
Thanks for the suggestions! I agree that blood artist is all-around better, I am only using the cutthroats because they were easy to find lying around. I agree that messenger is a powerful card but I am not sure what I would take out for it. I feel like the rotting rats/Prized Amalgam set is a different direction for the deck from messenger, since it and amalgam occupy a similar spot in the curve. I guess it just depends on whether you think eternally repeating bodies or once repeating bodies that shocks twice are better. Not having tested w/ messenger I can't say but without a good sac outlet I suspect messenger may in the end be stronger.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Decks:
UG Merfolk RG 8-Whack BWG Abzan midrange GRB Living End UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin" RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!" BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
Seems like this thread has been dead for awhile. Whats everyones testing been like? I have yet to obtain all the cards i need
I've tested BUG Zombie Dredge at my last FNM and went 2-1 w/ it.
It's much more dredgy than the usual UB Zombies, but had some fun lines of play to figure out.
4x diregraf ghoul
3x Lotleth Troll
4x Relentless Dead
4x Prized Amalgam
3x Stitchwing Skaab
1x craterhoof behemoth
3x life from the loam
2x Darkblast
3x abrupt decay
4x thought scour
1x raven's crime
1x unburial rites
2x gifts ungiven
4x misty rainforest
3x cavern of souls
2x swamp
1x island
1x forest
2x overgrown tomb
2x watery grave
1x godless shrine
1x ghost quarter
4x Polluted Delta
2x Hissing Quagmire
4x Overgrown Tomb
5x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Watery Grave
2x Woodland Cemetery
Creatures
4x Bloodghast
2x Diregraf Colossus
4x Gravecrawler
4x Lotleth Troll
4x Prized Amalgam
4x Relentless Dead
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Dismember
4x Grisly Salvage
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Thoughtseize
3x Liliana of the Veil
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Creeping Corrosion
2x Damnation
2x Golgari Charm
2x Lifebane Zombie
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Vampiric Link
From goldfishing this deck, I think it gets a pretty good board up around turn 3-4 with around 3-4 zombies. However, I am wondering if it is just a worse version of dredgevine?
Modern:
BRBightning RackBR
RGoblinsR
WBDeath and TaxesWB
Legacy:
BPoxB
It looks weak to graveyard hate. Which is the advantage of zombies over dredgevine. The deck needs to be playable without the graveyard, and then use the graveyard to put it over the top. But if it goldfishes well, I could just be wrong. You'll have to tell us how it plays!
At the three drop slots, you have Prized Amalgam, Diregraf Colossus, Geralf's Messenger, Diregraf Captain, and a list of subjective other 3 drops.
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
whereas everybody is totally excited about Prized Amalgam, the Card i dislike the most here is Relentless Dead.
IMO it's nothing more but an upgraded Reassembling Skeleton, which has never been played in Modern.
I expect Nether Traitor to do even more in his slot.
Maybe i'm totally wrong 'bout this one, but i just see some minor synergies and a lot of drawbacks.
I'm even more onto the Stitchwing Skaab train because it's easier to recurr once it hits the bin.
Green @ it's best
They top the curve with 3-4 Master of Waves, to be accurate.
Aether Vial must allow multiple shenanigans and synergies to be worth it in general. Merfolk plays 10-12 lords, breaks Silvergill Adept's drawback, plays Phantasmal Image and offers a possible Cursecatcher's Spike impression.
If the strongest cards fit in the recipe for a good Vial deck, go for it. I like the fact it brings back all these tapped zombies at end of turn, it really cahnges the tempo of the deck, possibly for the better.
You're tough with the card. The comparison doesn't stand at all. Relentless Dead fits exactly in a Vial variant: you put it on the battlefield at instant speed, and with your mana up, you buy some guys back. That can happen in combat, so you chump on purpose to trigger the ability.
The very good point is you can get back other copies of itself in the graveyard and create a soft loop. It's grindy, so it's gonna be useless in the fastest MUs, but the card offers potential CA in the mid term.
Nether Traitor is a fairer comparison, but that one ain't agressive enough, doesn't pick up other zombies, isn't a zombie itself,... well RD wins the fight once again for such a deck. Now is it worth playing in a zombie deck, I don't have the answer yet.
I mean, I guess you could say it's an upgraded reassembling skeleton. But it's one hell of an upgrade. It's also a zombie. Harder to block, and can bring back other zombies; specifically, key zombies that don't have recursion of their own.
He's very good at what zombies wants to do, at an uncontested mana cost. If he cost 3, there's room for argument. But there is no mono-black staple 2cmc zombie.
maybe i evaluate this one wrong.
I assume that UB Zombie's run at least a couple of Dredge Cards.
I'm gambling around with a List that runs 4 Golgari Grave-Troll, 4 Stinkweed Imp and 3 Life from the Loam.
This idea doesn't interact very well with Relentless Dead though.
Maybe i should get more into Vengevine territory with my BUG List?
Also Stitchwing Skaab has been really great in my initial testings.
It bumps Bloodghast and Prized Amalgam to the bin, which gives my plenty of Gas in the first couple of turns.
Green @ it's best
Green @ it's best
Yea, I see what you're saying. If everything you have comes back on its own, relentless dead doesn't bring enough to the table. I do think dredgevine is more of the direction you're going for. Like horse suit dog guy said, the deck we're going for wants to use the graveyard without entirely relying on it.
4x Gravecrawler
3x Diregraf Ghoul
3x Relentless Dead
2x Blood Artist
2x Phantasmal Image
3x Diregraf Captain
1x Prized Amalgam
4x Geralf's Messenger
3x Phyrexian Obliterator
4x Geth's Verdict
4x Tragic Slip
2x Mortarpod
1x Drown in Sorrow
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
Land (22)
1x Cavern of Souls
4x Darkslick Shores
4x Drowned Catacomb
9x Swamp
4x Watery Grave
3x Countersquall
2x Drown in Sorrow
4x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Leyline of Singularity
3x Leyline of the Void
1x Vapor Snag
Basically I decided one amalgam, three restless dead, and one more Obliterator to the maindeck.
In the side, I added a second Drown in Sorrow.
The station looks easier to use (:1mana: more to cast but no mana investment to use afterwards). In a variant where nearly every creature is resilient, we might have some interesting turns, untapping Station several times.
It makes me wonder if Bone Splinters wouldn't be an actual good card in a super resilient shell. The card jumped in my mind while I was thinking of how to abuse Relentless Dead.
If I want to recur, say, Geralf's Messenger, I need 3 mana open when RD dies (even 4 if I want RD to come back). Problem is decent cards like Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet and Tymaret, the Murder King, cost 3 and 2 mana to activate. Unless we're in mid/late game, I'll never have the mana.
Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx should help.
A draft :
2 Blasting Station
4 Bone Splinters
4 gravecrawler
4 Relentless Dead
4 Bloodghast
2 Tymaret, the Murder King
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Geralf's Messenger
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
12 Lands
Numbers are rather random, the draft is here to propose a direction for the deck (be all-in might not be viable though). Some cards may just be worse than alternate options (Tym, Kali, Imp, Splinters). I simply have in mind the deck must be able to deal with Affi, Infect and Coco decks, and have an evasive way to reach the opponent, also because of Ensnaring Bridge, Ghostly Prison and such hate cards that wreck tribal decks.
Edit: Tym deals to players only, seems bad actually.
There's only a few cases where you'd play station over messenger, captain, or dead+1mana. So you end up casting it on turn five, after you've emptied your glut of 3-costs plays. I agree, nine times out of ten I'd rather have a station than a pod but it's the opposite for opportunities to cast it compared to pod.
Eldrazi gone. Good riddance, and lucky us.
Sword in: Life gain? Ugh. Well, at least blood artist enjoys it when opponents trade multiple guys in combat. Oh and Leyline of Singularity.
4x Relentless Dead
4x Prized Amalgam
4x Gravecrawler
4x Rotting Rats
4x Diregraf Captain
4x Zulaport Cutthroat
4x Compelling Deterrence
4x Liliana of the Veil
4x Smallpox
Land (24)
4x Polluted Delta
2x Watery Grave
4x Darkslick Shores
2x Ghost Quarter
6x Swamp
8x Island
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
RG 8-Whack
BWG Abzan midrange
GRB Living End
UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin"
RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!"
BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
Yes, but we're the best thread on zombies.
As for your list: Don't bother with Urborg. All your lands (except two) tap for black anyways, and this just gives you two less lands if someone plays a Blood Moon. Second, we had a discussion in the thread earlier about Cutthroat over Blood Artist and the idea is there's so little that you can trade with/opportunities to attack with cutthroat that you would be better off using Blood Artist because it triggers on opponents creatures. Lastly, you should really find a home for Geralf's Messenger which is one of the best zombies in the game right now.
RG 8-Whack
BWG Abzan midrange
GRB Living End
UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin"
RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!"
BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
Modern:
B 8Rack
RX Goblins
BG Elves (Attempting)
UBW Mill
G Stompy
UB Tezzerator
Legacy:
W Stax
I've tested BUG Zombie Dredge at my last FNM and went 2-1 w/ it.
It's much more dredgy than the usual UB Zombies, but had some fun lines of play to figure out.
Green @ it's best