Hi everyone - I originally posted thsi thread to work on the project below, but I think it is best to open it up to any and all brews featuring Kuldotha Forgemaster. Like Shape Anew, this is a largely untapped resource in modern - let's figure out some of the best ways to use it!
I have seen several decks online using Kuldotha Forgemaster to cheat a Blighsteel Colossus into play, but they seemed to lack consistency. Here is one example by Travis Woo, This one by pure mtgo, and here is another by the rogue deckbuilder. I am not personally sold on the inclusion of the tron lands in many of these builds. My interest in the deck was recently (last few months) generated watching a Legacy game featuring MUD (the mono-brown artifact deck featuring metalworker). I have been pondering the idea of a Forgemaster deck in modern ever since. I started with Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas as my alternate to Kuldotha Forgemaster as a win condition, but this was also inconsistent and clunky from a design perspective. Finally the idea of using the untapped power of Day's Undoing could be the answer I have been searching for. When I came across Joker331 and Raystack's Tezzeret brews featuring the card. This deck is very interesting and I want to give a shout out to those to brew-masters for developing the idea and the Tezzeret Control thread community in general (go check it out).
So my idea is to essentially drop as many artifact ramp/free spells and combo protection as fast as possible and cast either a Kuldotha Forgemaster or Day's Undoing (to find a forgemaster).
In Modern, we don't have the best artifact ramp in the world, but we do have access to some really great stuff:
We also have access to some of the best disruption and combo protection in the game. Spellskite can singlehandedly wreck someone else's gameplan, while protecting yours. Lightning Greaves allows you to combo-kill the same turn you land your Kuldotha Forgemaster and provides some shroud based protection, and I run no 1-drops so Chalice on 1 can be had with no cost to the deck and stops the best answer in Path to Exile.
This deck relies completely on Kuldotha Forgemaster, so we also better have ways to find one (or more). Bauble helps to activate metalcraft, digs, and is a cheap sac artifact for forgemaster. Mind Stone is a cantripping Mana Rock, and Day's allows us to spin the wheel all over again. Just about every spell in the deck is a permanent (except Day's) and I empty my hand very very fast - making it easy to profit from Day's Undoing. Combined with spellskite and chalice, our opponents' linear strategies and disruption are heavily mitagated and therefore so is their draw 7 - not to mention they will unlikely be able to empty their hand as fast as we can (unless affinity - see Hurkyl's Recall). Sea Gate Wreckage just rewards the deck for what it does best already...
Anyway, Here was the idea that prompted me to start this thread:
Stony Silence and Affinity are probably the main issues for the deck (a future meta will probably prove more useful for the deck lol), so that brings us to sideboard discussion:
Currently I have these as some good options in general:
Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
MindstoneI removed this and naturally added the Coretapper shell for ramp. The cycling mode is nice, but with already so many 4-ofs with Days Undoing and Mishra's Bauble, I don't think you'll have a problem drawing into what you need. I really can't overstate how synergistic it is with charge counter artifacts like Chalice of the Void & Everflowing Chalice. With Simian Spirit Guides and Mox Opal, a T1 Coretapper is ridiculous ramp.
Lightning Greaves - Dropped a couple of these. In the format, the only realistic way your opponents can get rid of Blightsteel is with Path to Exile or Vapor Snag. Both of which are dealt with Chalice on 1.
Platinum Angel - I like her, but I am wondering if she can be replaced with Wurmcoil Engine. The coil comes in earlier and does basically the same job keeping you alive. Plus he works nicely with sacrifice effects.
Landbase - You are almost all colorless, so I would take further advantage of that and add some Inkmoth Nexus. Phyrexia's Core would also be nice to have the option to get rid of Platinum Angel when you need to. It can also enable you to pitch & reshuffle your Blightsteel in the case that it gets exiled or something like that.
Sea Gate Wreckage - Replaced this with Desolate Lighthouse. Days Undoing doesn't care about traditional card advantage anyway and you'll need a way to pitch Blightsteel if you draw into him.
That's all i got for now
MindstoneI removed this and naturally added the Coretapper shell for ramp. The cycling mode is nice, but with already so many 4-ofs with Days Undoing and Mishra's Bauble, I don't think you'll have a problem drawing into what you need. I really can't overstate how synergistic it is with charge counter artifacts like Chalice of the Void & Everflowing Chalice. With Simian Spirit Guides and Mox Opal, a T1 Coretapper is ridiculous ramp.
Lightning Greaves - Dropped a couple of these. In the format, the only realistic way your opponents can get rid of Blightsteel is with Path to Exile or Vapor Snag. Both of which are dealt with Chalice on 1.
Platinum Angel - I like her, but I am wondering if she can be replaced with Wurmcoil Engine. The coil comes in earlier and does basically the same job keeping you alive. Plus he works nicely with sacrifice effects.
Landbase - You are almost all colorless, so I would take further advantage of that and add some Inkmoth Nexus. Phyrexia's Core would also be nice to have the option to get rid of Platinum Angel when you need to. It can also enable you to pitch & reshuffle your Blightsteel in the case that it gets exiled or something like that.
That's all i got for now
Thanks for the comments! I figured that a coretapper shell for ramp was an option, but I figured I would start out with something more basic, and once the core is established look into adding more "combos" to the deck. In thinking about this list I actually thought - wow, the deck Joker has made would be very good at casting a forgemaster! I sort of devolved to straight basic artifact ramo from there to simplify.
I think lightning greaves is very essential as a 4-of to this deck, not as much for the shroud, but mostly the haste. This ability speeds up the deck by two full turns (allowing you to use both forgemaster and attack with colossus the same turn it comes down). This makes T3 wins a reality (not a consistency unfortunately).
T1: Darksteel Citadel, Mox Opal, (Exile SSG) Rock, Rock.
T2: Land, Rock, Greaves
T3: Forgemaster, Blightsteel --> win.
This is one of a few different scenarios that would produce a T3 win. A hand +3 draws (10 cards) with a Mox, Forgemaster, and Greaves will certainly have a good chance of a T3 win. Bauble and chalices (both kinds) enable this by helping to activate mox for free. You can cast chalice on zero as long as you drop all your other zero-artifacts first.
T3 wins aside, Lightning greaves on Platinum Angel can buy you major time against anything. Angel could also be a second colossus, among other things - as you mentioned. Angel is there mostly to prevent other combo kills - which wurmcoil cannot. Ad Nauseum, Kiki, Anafenza combos, and a whole host of other win conditions. Sometimes you need to stop them from killing you before you can beat with the blightsteel.
I went with blue lands so I can consistently cast Day's Undoing. With the opals I have 12 blue sources which I think is pretty close to optimal to guarantee a blue source by turn 3. I did consider dropping it to 9-11 sources and adding other utility lands like blinkmoth nexus and/or academy ruins, among others - even blighted cataract or more sea gate wreckage. I am not sure what the exact number is that I need to reliably have that blue source to cast day's undoing on time each game.
Currently my build has 31 non-combo artifacts, so I don't think I need the additional artifact land too much.
Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
What do you think about adding Master Transmuter? It fills that same 5-cmc gap of casting/activation cost as Forger, and it's an extra enabler. It would call for more artifact creatures to be in hand for efficient usage. I love the thought of Platinum Angel and Wurmcoil Engine. Scarecrone is a no-go with a disappearing graveyard.
What do you think about adding Master Transmuter? It fills that same 5-cmc gap of casting/activation cost as Forger, and it's an extra enabler. It would call for more artifact creatures to be in hand for efficient usage. I love the thought of Platinum Angel and Wurmcoil Engine. Scarecrone is a no-go with a disappearing graveyard.
Yeah, the goal here is to get a forgemaster --> blightsteel as fast and consistently as possible. There are other ways to build a forgemaster deck (see links in OP), but they aren't really combo decks. They have a lot of other things going on and happen to include forgemasters and blightsteel.
Clearly I am all in on forgemaster here, with nothing to distract from that strategy. This makes the combo stronger, but the potential for disruption higher - which is why all of the combo protection/disruption.
Lightning Greaves is so important to this strategy. It speeds up the deck by two full turns. It is sometimes good enough to just have a blightsteel in play the slow way, but the potential to do this and swing on T3-4 is there.
I cannot think of a better way to ramp and increase my artifact count than the mana rocks. At least Mind stone doubles as a dig spell and everflowing chalice can be dropped for free to simply sacrifice or empty for Day's. It is not the ideal plan, but I think it is the best we have access to...
So I guess it would be fruitful to look for cards that do one or multiple of the following things:
Speed up the deck
Make forgemaster more consistent
Make the strategy more resiliant (by adding cards that reward the deck for what it is already doing)
Ensnaring Bridge is a great card for this deck. You can empty your hand very very fast to activate it, and then sac the card for Forgemaster to clear the path for Blightsteel. The only problem is Day's Undoing - this works to the opposite effect of bridge. So I am looking for maybe 1-3 slots in the deck to make the strategy more resilient. So far the following have come to mind:
Wurmcoil Engine (i dont like the mana cost as it is not a card I would tutor for, and it would make my Day's much less effective by sitting in my hand too long)
Storage Matrix (this could be some added disruption/delaying to add resilience, might amplify the Day's plan a bit)
Silent Arbiter (4cmc - not bad, difficult to kill, slows down the opponent, we will never attack with more than 1 creature)
Dissipation Field (makes day's undoing better, 4cmc is a little steep, not an artifact, could be worth it?)
Master Transmuter is another good addition, but there are a few problems. By itself it doesn't do anything, it is very easy to kill, and to make it's effect worthwhile I need to dilute the mana rock and Day's plan too much (by adding more big artifact dudes). This is a card that works against the current direction of the deck and would be most useful as a way to cheat the blightsteel in my hand into play. Currently I think having Days to cycle him back in is enough combined with the alternative target of platinum angel. I could be wrong though lol, we are still pretty fresh here!
Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
May I recommend Through the Breach? It is an easy splash, and gives an easy way to try and win with an unexpected Blightsteel Colossus. Also after Blightsteel Collosus gets sacrificed, he will shuffle back into your library to be recycled for your Kuldotha Forgemaster. Furthermore, since it is an instant you may use it as a line of defence against attacks or combos with Platinum Angel.
I like Lightning Greaves for it's ability to not only give Kuldotha Forgemaster haste, but also Blightsteel Colossus. Otherwise I find it useless without the combo in sight which may happen. I'd also like to recommend an alternative in Hammer of Purphoros, now hear me out: First it is an artifact that gives haste to all your creatures, Second it creates 3/3 artifact creatures out of your lands if you find yourself in a flood or a stall. It encourages a splash for red which has it's fair share of support for artifacts and for cards such as Lightning Bolt and Anger of the Gods to fend of aggro. It's cons are that it costs one more than lightning greaves and opens up to a wider splash of red..
I'll stop recommending red cards in this blue deck for now and let you all reflect on this. Happy brewing! :')
Edit: Just realized you can use Through the Breach on the opponent's turn to Kuldotha Forgemaster into Blightsteel Colossus, effectively going for the kill on your turn. Like a modern Tinker :3 think of the higher mana cost paid for the instant speed.
-in my Tezzeret AoB list it really is always an all star. You only need to keep 1 card back (and you'll likely draw into one from a day's undoing) and it helps you protect your artifacts from things like Hurkyl's recall or shatterstorm etc - because they will also draw into their artifact hate when you wheel them. Negate is a cheap counter to everything that matters (artifact destruction)
So I did some playtesting on Sunday and confirmed the deck was definitely a viable strategy.
I played 5 games against infect (3-2)
I lost two games in a row due to mana issues (in a deck that has essentially 40 mana sources) - but whatev.
Then I won 3 games in a row - twice with Blightsteel and once with angel preventing me from losing at 12 infect.
It is funny - I am an infect deck right? lol
Day's Undoing is a little bit scary, but fun to cast. If I don't have some sort of board protection (skite or chalice) it is hard to justify letting someone like infect untap with 8 cards. It worked out every time though... Chalice and/or skite is as backbreaking as it gets for that deck.
I also played 2 games against the enchantment prison deck (0-2)
This is a very very bad matchup. I need a very good draw that includes echoing truth to win.
These experiences, even though limited, allowed me to reflect on the nature of the deck and the choices I made in deckbuilding. I was overall very proud of the execution, and many onlookers were dazzled by what the deck was doing. I think Day's Undoing is the greatest asset, and simultaneously the greatest weakness of the deck. I don't know if I will keep it, but it did work relatively well.
So I am a fan of the suggestion to add red. I am not a fan of Through the Breach as it is too reliant on having a bad draw - that is having your blightsteel in your hand. If your blightsteel is not in hand it is essentially another dead card. Quicksilver Amulet or Master Transmuter are in a similar boat, but with the added benefit that you only need one in the deck as it is a tutorable artifact that solves the blighsteel in hand dilemma. The biggest reason I am a fan of red is Ghirapur Aether Grid and Blood Moon. Grid is a secondary win condition, a reusable removal spell, and is a great answer to stony silence. Blood Moon is Blood Moon. I can cast Blood Moon as early as T1, but more frequently on T2-3. Hammer of Purphoros is in my brewing pile, to be tinkered with as well. Anger of the Gods is agreat option, but I fear the RR in its cost is too high.
In testing, Lightning Greaves was an allstar for the deck. Greaves on an angel is just nasty. Comboing off on T4 with greaves is super fun.
Tezzeret the seeker can get my toolbelt artifacts, quicksilver amulet, or can act as another win condition. With a little more effort he can get a kuldotha forgemaster or even a platinum angel.
Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Actually with Through the Breach you can combo with Kuldotha forgemaster on your opponent's end step to have a Blightsteel Colossus ready to attack on your turn.. it doesn't only work with Blightsteel, that's whats interesting about it. So essentially if you have Through the Breach and any other creature your "comboing off". I can get why you wouldn't like the card but personally I think it's a great combo enabler in this deck since our creatures will generate immediate value after the Through the Breach. If you cheat Kuldotha Forgemaster at the end of your opponent's turn, sac it and 2 other artifacts on instant speed to get a permanent Blightsteel Collossus on your battlefield ready to attack on your turn. If you have Blightsteel Hack and Slash away directly at your opponent, the Blightsteel will then reshuffle in your library ready to be reused. The Quicksilver Amulet is a neat idea, albeit expensive.
Actually with Through the Breach you can combo with Kuldotha forgemaster on your opponent's end step to have a Blightsteel Colossus ready to attack on your turn.. it doesn't only work with Blightsteel, that's whats interesting about it. So essentially if you have Through the Breach and any other creature your "comboing off". I can get why you wouldn't like the card but personally I think it's a great combo enabler in this deck since our creatures will generate immediate value after the Through the Breach. If you cheat Kuldotha Forgemaster at the end of your opponent's turn, sac it and 2 other artifacts on instant speed to get a permanent Blightsteel Collossus on your battlefield ready to attack on your turn. If you have Blightsteel Hack and Slash away directly at your opponent, the Blightsteel will then reshuffle in your library ready to be reused. The Quicksilver Amulet is a neat idea, albeit expensive.
I definitely see where you are going with it, but based on my experience the deck doesn't have room for such a conditional play.
costs 5 mana to cast - if you are cheating in a kuldotha, why not just cast it?
is not an artifact, cannot be tutored for to solve your "blightsteel in hand" problem. This is a fundamental problem, so even if you are running breaches, you would still need an artifact enabler.
You would need to add four to the deck to make good use of the card. Then you have to add more things to cheat in to make it more reliable. At this point we just add emrakul, the aeons torn and make a "through the breach deck"
Quicksilver amulet is not in my list because it is an awesome thing I want to be doing. It is a resilient backup plan that happens to be a tutorable artifact. Master transmuter is quicker (with lightning greaves), but dies to... everything.
On the off chance you draw an amulet and a fabricate (and no forgemaster), you can tutor up a blightsteel and put it into play that way if it is more convenient to do so. Ideally you sidestep this whole issue and just combo with kuldotha the simple way.
Master Transmuter is better if you have a greaves and aren't worried about removal.
if you have 6 mana (one is blue), a forgemaster in hand, a blightsteel in hand, and a greaves in play you can tutor up the transmuter and attack with the blighsteel the same turn. Otherwise the amulet is better imo.
Through the breach doesn't solve any of these problems in quite the same way... it seems to add more deckbuilding conditions with little reward for doing so.
I really appreciate the suggestion, but I cannot see how it would help the deck. Maybe you can put a list together with a more detailed explantion? Maybe I am missing something?
Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
If you release Day's Undoing (keep that option open) for graveyard filling choices like Thirst for Knowledge, then you can start to do some neat Hand/Board/Graveyard tricks with Scarecrone and Master Transmuter. They are both vulnerable, but not really - you are playing (4) Chalice of the Void and (4) Spellskite. Remember that the transmuter is an artifact herself. One of the neat things she can do is swap the bridge around with other artifacts to open and close the door, as it were.
Incomplete thoughts: Pili-Pala - I recall some sort of combo with that bugger, but not sure if it could help. Extra Turns - Is this a mechanic worth looking into. In a way, if they don't have blockers, you could see yourself as an all-in win. Such that cards like Final Fortune (modern illegal) could be considered. Ral Zarek is too slow.
Lastly, there was this strange outlier deck from a premier event in Japan about a year ago. It featured Blightsteel Colossus, Master Transmuter, Wurmcoil Engine, and a bizarre array of spells and tricks. I've been searching for a way to recall the decklist...I'm sorry - no success. We were discussing the deck in the U/B Tezzeret thread. Anyone remember???
I really wish there was a Talisman in izzet colors. I tried Izzet signet and it just doesn't make the cut...
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Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Jwelt found it on the U/B Thread. Apparently, this thing wrecked about a year ago. I tried it here and there. It's...interesting. In all of these discussions, we have to take pause and consider Eldrazi. Hard Truth is that little will stand up to it. However, it will soon be banned, and then we can all get back to confidently tinkering with potentially tournament winning designs.
Don't think your understanding Through the Breach Jwelt... you would prefer casting Through the Breach on you opponent's turn to play Forgemaster than on your turn because:
1. Forgemaster does not have haste and you have to wait a whole turn before activating him, and then a whole other turn to attack with Blightsteel, not only that the risks for the combo are higher. (That is if you don't have lightning Greaves which you won't always have).
2. Through the Breach is harder to hate on than Lightning Greaves which is equipped at sorcery speed! Don't worry about your artifact count, Darksteel Citadel will help that.
3. It's not only for giving Kuldotha flash but also haste, and also remove summoning sickness on Blightsteel Colossus.
4. Realistically, you will find Amulet slow and mana draining which is why it doesn't see play in modern. Master Transmuter has the same problem.
The idea is really to protect the combo more efficiently by doing it on the opponent's turn than our own, combos at instant speed usually have a better chance at succeeding than slower ones and ones which needs more pieces, Through the Breach permits you to litterally have a 2 card combo in having the Forgemaster or the Blightsteel itself and going for the win as fast as you can. Lightning Greaves can be disrupted much more easily with artifact hate than you think because of it's sorcery speed and ads another piece to your combo. (I'm not telling you to not play any, but to not put all your eggs in one basket.)
Also with all due respect saying why not play Emrakul instead is like saying why not playing Splinter Twin instead... and actually in our case it's better since we have more ways to get to cheat the Blightsteel than an Emrakul.
I also found a neat interaction with using Through the Breach with Wurmcoil Engine, it lets you attack with the big bad coil and then it leaves it's tokens on the battlefield post TTB. A la Feldon of the Third Path.
Okay I rushed making this list but that's my general idea of how I would build the deck:
I also added Thirst for Knowledge instead of fabricate as a way to not only shuffle back our beloved Blightsteel Colossus but also to dig for the combo.
I agree with Raystack that the deck will go nowhere with the menace of the Eldrazi and that we have to wait for ze banhammer.
Now i can see where you are going with it. I will post more comments when im at the computer. I wish i had through the breach now !
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in the interest of the brew I am reworking this thread to be a general brew factory for Kuldotha Forgemaster decks. Since there is no real established way to go about the deck I think it is best to keep options open.
I will be updating the OP with decklists from the various brews I have been able to find on the internet from the past as well as Dusk Horizon's new TTB brew.
I hope this is a welcome change!
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Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Now I understand the principle you are working towards, and I like it a lot. So to sum up- the value in Through the breach is 2-fold: It gives dudes haste, and enables Blightsteel - all at instant speed. This allows you to essentially cut Lightning Greaves (as you have done) from the list and add a few more juicy artifact creatures.
This does come at a cost (which you are definitely mitigating): less artifacts in the deck.
Using fewer ramp artifacts and cheap permanents like Lightning Greaves hurts Mox Opal a bit. I see the Inkmoth Nexi added to the main, but activating it to get metalcraft is net gain = 0. It is still great for color fixing though, but worse in multiples now as it's upside took a hit.
I also feel like putting a wurmcoil into play for 1 less mana with haste is not the best since it won't necessarily give the best payoff. Possibly having another Blightsteel would help to leverage TTB. I also think I like having access to Fabricate for the sideboard bullet tutoring potential. This is a major asset to the deck. I also don't think the use of Scalding Tarn over Shivan Reef is justified - having a mostly painless manabase is big in this format, adding a slight amount of resiliency.
These are some changes I might try:
-1 TTB
-2 Wurmcoil Engine
-4 Thirst for knowledge
+1 Blightsteel Colossus
+4 Fabricate
+2 Talisman of Dominance
Overall - is it worth sacrificing utility and maybe a little consistency for the combat tricks of TTB? It could be - please let us know if you do any testing! Awesome brew man.
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Thanks, this was actually a brew idea after I fell in love with Blightsteel Collossus and Kuldotha Forgemaster from a while back that I never got to play test but now I feel the motivation to try it :p.
I agree with the landbase change, this was a bit thrown togheter so I didn't have the time to think about it too much.
If you think about it, having 4 Kuldotha Forgemaster, 2 Blightsteel Colossus and 4 TTB, you get around the same combo consistency as Splinter Twin which is quite encouraging (albeit not the same combo at all xd), sadly for Forgemaster to work, your Blightsteel has to be in your deck which makes me reticent on using Fabricate over Thirst for Knowledge, opinion?
Hey, I know this thread's been quiet for a couple months but I wanted to try to reinvigorate it in time for Kaladesh, which will likely contain a lot of exciting additions for this archetype. Here's what I've settled on currently:
The combination of 6 enablers and Thirst for Knowledge + Fabricate has finally gotten the deck to a quasi-competitive level of consistency.
My friend really wanted to run Sharuum and Steel Wind so I settled on Esper colors to make sure I could hard cast them late game if I didn't find any enablers (Running esper and several 5 color mana sources also helps Engineered Explosives). I tried to build around Tezz but ultimately found that unless I wanted to commit more resources to artifact-based board control he'd get picked off before I could untap with him. He's usually paired with Ensnaring Bridge but in this deck I found that I wasn't emptying my hand fast enough for it to help. Without Tezz, I decided that going UWb was better than UBw, since white gives us MB Path and a ton of excellent sideboard options.
Fabricate helps us find artifact sideboard options and gives the deck a nice toolbox aspect. Thirst for Knowledge's instant speed becomes even more relevant when paired with instant speed disruption. I also love that you can pitch a Payoff card, tap Kuldotha Forgemaster and fetch Sharuum to rez the discarded Payoff card in a nice 2-for-1.
T2 (on the play) Talisman of Progress -> Spell Snare is a juicy tempo play whenever it comes up.
The biggest problem so far has been dealing with Stony Silence, as I'm sure you're all aware. Spell Snare is fairly effective if you've got it in hand, and Cyclonic Rift or Detention Sphere will (at least temporarily) take care of a SS if it hits the board.
Playing against hyper aggressive decks can also be tricky. Luckily if you're facing a really linear deck you can side out some of the defensive spells (Spellskite, Counterspells) and load up with some combination of 4x Path, 2x Explosives, 1x Cyclonic Rift, 2x Detention Sphere, and 1x Timely Reinforcements to give yourself some breathing room. Being able to tutor EE with Fabricate helps.
MB has 1x Relic of Progenitus right now but this is a flex slot that will be for whatever the most widely effective hate artifact is.
Overall the deck is a ton of fun to play between the cheap interaction, toolbox artifacts, Timmy-level monster threats, and the occasional (rage inducing) free win off of a greave'd Platinum Angel. Looking forward to Kaladesh! Stay tuned.
It's a fun deck right? I love it as well. I have a few suggestions for you based on my experience with the deck:
I would cut down on artifact fattys. In my testing angel and colossus were more than enough to get me there. Often the problem isn't having the payoff card, it is enabling the combo.
Lightning greaves + Forgemaster has been the best thing the deck does in my experience. Have you tried maxing out greaves?
How are you liking the 7 card draw effects?
@Airwave
How are you liking the ramp creatures? I always avoided them as to negate my opponent's removal usually opting for things like Mind Stone.
Can you share your list?
Also looking forward to Kaladesh!
Edit: So I haven't revisted this deck since sword of the meek was unbanned. I think it could add to the deck...
Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
I agree that Greaves has a really high payoff ceiling: T4 Forgemaster -> hasted tap & sac -> hasted Blightsteel is certainly the fastest way this deck can win.
While going all-out like that is viable against uninteractive linear decks, it's left my key pieces open to getting sniped by instant speed removal faster than I can equip Greaves. Anyone that's played against the deck more than one game knows to hold instant speed removal to snipe the fatty, or ideally the enabler before they can bring in a fatty. God forbid the opponent lets you sac your 3 artifacts to Forgemaster's ability and then Paths your Blightsteel (Q_Q)... You're probably not coming back from that game.
The other factor is that Greaves alone don't do much to advance your board state and that multiple Greaves on the field don't really provide more value, aside from being another artifact to sac if needed. Conversely, extra Spellskites & counterspells provide additional layers of protection even in multiples, they don't leave an opening for your opponent, and they all do something beneficial to the game even if you don't have anything else on the board. I might try a third Greaves, but I'm a little hesitant to run the full playset in the main.
In earlier versions of the deck I ran fewer fatties and tried to focus more on setting up the combo by running Serum Visions, a fourth Fabricate, even Condescend. This did make the combo itself more consistent, but it was also slower and full of more "air", giving aggressive opponents more breathing room. I found that I'd rather have the classic combination of card draw + cheap interaction + 6 threats so that I could play an interactive game and disrupt the opponent long enough to hard cast my threats if needed. I might trim one fatty, but 5-6 is rather common for this archetype as far as my reading as shown, and I like occasionally drawing a threat or two organically rather than always needing another spell to fetch them first.
The other benefit is that Grafdigger's Cage is everywhere right now (5th most played spell in Modern) and it shuts down Kuladotha. Being able to organically draw and hard-cast threats as a backup plan is good insurance against hate cards (we have our hands full worrying about Stony Silence as it is).
The 7 draw spells have been great. Like most ramp decks, one of this build's biggest weaknesses is drawing too much ramp and defensive material ("I have 9 mana.. I'm ready to do something! Please!?"). Thirst and Fabricate are ideal selection tools to dig for whatever you need and keep you at card advantage. If I'm at 5-6 mana I will often skip the enabler altogether and just Fabricate a Wurmcoil Engine for more immediate board control.
For those of you that run Chalice, how has it worked for you? What do you set it to? 1? What matchups is it most effective in? Is it worth playing without Simian Spirit Guide to set it to 1 on T1? Setting it to 1 T1 or maybe even T2 sounds decent against a lot of decks but I imagine pulling it late as a top deck would be somewhat sad, not to mention pulling your second, third, or fourth copies. Grateful for any data or feedback on this.
I think I will try reducing greaves and increasing threats with wurmcoil.
Have you tried thopter combo in the deck at all - what are your thoughts on that?
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
I haven't tried the thopter combo yet as I'm worried that it would dilute the deck too much. I'm already in the right colors and the deck's shell is certainly built to dig for artifacts, so the strategies do overlap in that sense, but it's an entirely separate two card combo that doesn't help our main win con. Generally speaking it's enough work to keep the opponent at bay long enough to get Kuldotha online safely, I can't imagine drawing a Sword of the Meek instead of Spell Snare / Path / Explosives and being happy about it.
So far I think Kaladesh looks like a really fun set but I've been pretty disappointed by it in terms of what it can offer for this deck archetype relative to my initial expectations. And we're looking for a pretty wide variety of spells:
For the most part the vehicles don't seem appropriate for this deck. One possible exception is the Smuggler's Copter for those builds running Vedalken Engineer etc.
I've been waiting for some good Payoff cards, but I haven't seen anything good enough yet. The Gearhulk cycle is interesting but they just aren't as good as Wurmcoil Engine at 6 CMC.
The card that seems to have the most potential right now is Padeem:
He seems a little bit too expensive relative to his immediate impact to earn a place in the MB but I could see holding 1x in the SB to slot in against grindy control matches where you need both the the card advantage and the hexproof protection. He'll become the focal point for removal but at least that's one more roadblock they have to get through, and it's nice that he's got 4 toughness.
I'm still holding out hope for some blue disruption or card draw spells that benefit from running artifacts, similar to Stoic Rebuttal or Thoughtcast.
The good news is that they're printing astonishingly beautiful versions of many of the cards in this deck:
Welp, the full set has been spoiled now and no other blue cards have stood out for this deck. A couple cards I forgot to mention before:
I'll be replacing my (currently proxied) Tendo Ice Bridge copies with Aether Hub since it's significantly cheaper and functionally equivalent in most circumstances.
Another card I'm considering is Filigree Familiar. It could be an okay blocker or something good to sacrifice to Forgemaster. If the card draw was part of his ETB ability I'd definitely make space for 1-2x in the MB, but as an on death trigger I'm less excited. At 3 CMC Timely Reinforcements seems like a better card against aggro -- potentially 6 life and virtual card advantage via three 1/1 blockers -- even if it's not an artifact. With that said Mono U Tron players are pretty ecstatic about the card so I may be undervaluing it.
Hi everyone - I originally posted thsi thread to work on the project below, but I think it is best to open it up to any and all brews featuring Kuldotha Forgemaster. Like Shape Anew, this is a largely untapped resource in modern - let's figure out some of the best ways to use it!
I have seen several decks online using Kuldotha Forgemaster to cheat a Blighsteel Colossus into play, but they seemed to lack consistency. Here is one example by Travis Woo, This one by pure mtgo, and here is another by the rogue deckbuilder. I am not personally sold on the inclusion of the tron lands in many of these builds. My interest in the deck was recently (last few months) generated watching a Legacy game featuring MUD (the mono-brown artifact deck featuring metalworker). I have been pondering the idea of a Forgemaster deck in modern ever since. I started with Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas as my alternate to Kuldotha Forgemaster as a win condition, but this was also inconsistent and clunky from a design perspective. Finally the idea of using the untapped power of Day's Undoing could be the answer I have been searching for. When I came across Joker331 and Raystack's Tezzeret brews featuring the card. This deck is very interesting and I want to give a shout out to those to brew-masters for developing the idea and the Tezzeret Control thread community in general (go check it out).
In Modern, we don't have the best artifact ramp in the world, but we do have access to some really great stuff:
We also have access to some of the best disruption and combo protection in the game. Spellskite can singlehandedly wreck someone else's gameplan, while protecting yours. Lightning Greaves allows you to combo-kill the same turn you land your Kuldotha Forgemaster and provides some shroud based protection, and I run no 1-drops so Chalice on 1 can be had with no cost to the deck and stops the best answer in Path to Exile.
This deck relies completely on Kuldotha Forgemaster, so we also better have ways to find one (or more). Bauble helps to activate metalcraft, digs, and is a cheap sac artifact for forgemaster. Mind Stone is a cantripping Mana Rock, and Day's allows us to spin the wheel all over again. Just about every spell in the deck is a permanent (except Day's) and I empty my hand very very fast - making it easy to profit from Day's Undoing. Combined with spellskite and chalice, our opponents' linear strategies and disruption are heavily mitagated and therefore so is their draw 7 - not to mention they will unlikely be able to empty their hand as fast as we can (unless affinity - see Hurkyl's Recall). Sea Gate Wreckage just rewards the deck for what it does best already...
Anyway, Here was the idea that prompted me to start this thread:
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
1x Platinum Angel
1x Blightsteel Colossus
Protect & Disrupt (12):
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Spellskite
4x Lightning Greaves
3x Mox Opal
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Mind Stone
4x Everflowing Chalice
Dig (8):
4x Mishra's Bauble
4x Day's Undoing
4x Darksteel Citadel
4x Ghost Quarter
9x Island
2x Sea Gate Wreckage
Stony Silence and Affinity are probably the main issues for the deck (a future meta will probably prove more useful for the deck lol), so that brings us to sideboard discussion:
Currently I have these as some good options in general:
I am looking for any feedback and comments the community can provide. Thanks for looking!
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
1x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Blightsteel Colossus
Protect & Disrupt (12):
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Spellskite
2x Lightning Greaves
4x Mox Opal
3x Simian Spirit Guide
3x Astral Cornucopia
3x Everflowing Chalice
4x Coretapper
Dig (8):
4x Mishra's Bauble
4x Day's Undoing
4x Darksteel Citadel
4x Ghost Quarter
2x Inkmoth Nexus
2x Phyrexia's Core
5x Island
2x Desolate Lighthouse
MindstoneI removed this and naturally added the Coretapper shell for ramp. The cycling mode is nice, but with already so many 4-ofs with Days Undoing and Mishra's Bauble, I don't think you'll have a problem drawing into what you need. I really can't overstate how synergistic it is with charge counter artifacts like Chalice of the Void & Everflowing Chalice. With Simian Spirit Guides and Mox Opal, a T1 Coretapper is ridiculous ramp.
Lightning Greaves - Dropped a couple of these. In the format, the only realistic way your opponents can get rid of Blightsteel is with Path to Exile or Vapor Snag. Both of which are dealt with Chalice on 1.
Platinum Angel - I like her, but I am wondering if she can be replaced with Wurmcoil Engine. The coil comes in earlier and does basically the same job keeping you alive. Plus he works nicely with sacrifice effects.
Landbase - You are almost all colorless, so I would take further advantage of that and add some Inkmoth Nexus. Phyrexia's Core would also be nice to have the option to get rid of Platinum Angel when you need to. It can also enable you to pitch & reshuffle your Blightsteel in the case that it gets exiled or something like that.
Sea Gate Wreckage - Replaced this with Desolate Lighthouse. Days Undoing doesn't care about traditional card advantage anyway and you'll need a way to pitch Blightsteel if you draw into him.
That's all i got for now
Thanks for the comments! I figured that a coretapper shell for ramp was an option, but I figured I would start out with something more basic, and once the core is established look into adding more "combos" to the deck. In thinking about this list I actually thought - wow, the deck Joker has made would be very good at casting a forgemaster! I sort of devolved to straight basic artifact ramo from there to simplify.
I think lightning greaves is very essential as a 4-of to this deck, not as much for the shroud, but mostly the haste. This ability speeds up the deck by two full turns (allowing you to use both forgemaster and attack with colossus the same turn it comes down). This makes T3 wins a reality (not a consistency unfortunately).
T1: Darksteel Citadel, Mox Opal, (Exile SSG) Rock, Rock.
T2: Land, Rock, Greaves
T3: Forgemaster, Blightsteel --> win.
This is one of a few different scenarios that would produce a T3 win. A hand +3 draws (10 cards) with a Mox, Forgemaster, and Greaves will certainly have a good chance of a T3 win. Bauble and chalices (both kinds) enable this by helping to activate mox for free. You can cast chalice on zero as long as you drop all your other zero-artifacts first.
T3 wins aside, Lightning greaves on Platinum Angel can buy you major time against anything. Angel could also be a second colossus, among other things - as you mentioned. Angel is there mostly to prevent other combo kills - which wurmcoil cannot. Ad Nauseum, Kiki, Anafenza combos, and a whole host of other win conditions. Sometimes you need to stop them from killing you before you can beat with the blightsteel.
I went with blue lands so I can consistently cast Day's Undoing. With the opals I have 12 blue sources which I think is pretty close to optimal to guarantee a blue source by turn 3. I did consider dropping it to 9-11 sources and adding other utility lands like blinkmoth nexus and/or academy ruins, among others - even blighted cataract or more sea gate wreckage. I am not sure what the exact number is that I need to reliably have that blue source to cast day's undoing on time each game.
Currently my build has 31 non-combo artifacts, so I don't think I need the additional artifact land too much.
I really like the digging power of Mind stone...
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
It's a beauty of ship you put together, Jwelt. Let's see how she sails! As attractive as Kuldotha Forger / Blightsteel Colossus appeared, it struck me as too slow. Lightning Greaves? Inspired! Now, we're talking.
What do you think about adding Master Transmuter? It fills that same 5-cmc gap of casting/activation cost as Forger, and it's an extra enabler. It would call for more artifact creatures to be in hand for efficient usage. I love the thought of Platinum Angel and Wurmcoil Engine. Scarecrone is a no-go with a disappearing graveyard.
As for the mana generation, I'm not settled on the mana rock plan or the astral cornucopia/everflowing chalice/coretapper base.
Yeah, the goal here is to get a forgemaster --> blightsteel as fast and consistently as possible. There are other ways to build a forgemaster deck (see links in OP), but they aren't really combo decks. They have a lot of other things going on and happen to include forgemasters and blightsteel.
Clearly I am all in on forgemaster here, with nothing to distract from that strategy. This makes the combo stronger, but the potential for disruption higher - which is why all of the combo protection/disruption.
Lightning Greaves is so important to this strategy. It speeds up the deck by two full turns. It is sometimes good enough to just have a blightsteel in play the slow way, but the potential to do this and swing on T3-4 is there.
I cannot think of a better way to ramp and increase my artifact count than the mana rocks. At least Mind stone doubles as a dig spell and everflowing chalice can be dropped for free to simply sacrifice or empty for Day's. It is not the ideal plan, but I think it is the best we have access to...
So I guess it would be fruitful to look for cards that do one or multiple of the following things:
Ensnaring Bridge is a great card for this deck. You can empty your hand very very fast to activate it, and then sac the card for Forgemaster to clear the path for Blightsteel. The only problem is Day's Undoing - this works to the opposite effect of bridge. So I am looking for maybe 1-3 slots in the deck to make the strategy more resilient. So far the following have come to mind:
Master Transmuter is another good addition, but there are a few problems. By itself it doesn't do anything, it is very easy to kill, and to make it's effect worthwhile I need to dilute the mana rock and Day's plan too much (by adding more big artifact dudes). This is a card that works against the current direction of the deck and would be most useful as a way to cheat the blightsteel in my hand into play. Currently I think having Days to cycle him back in is enough combined with the alternative target of platinum angel. I could be wrong though lol, we are still pretty fresh here!
So all in all:
Thanks - I appreciate everyone's input very much! Taking this deck to a local tourney tomorrow
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
I like Lightning Greaves for it's ability to not only give Kuldotha Forgemaster haste, but also Blightsteel Colossus. Otherwise I find it useless without the combo in sight which may happen. I'd also like to recommend an alternative in Hammer of Purphoros, now hear me out: First it is an artifact that gives haste to all your creatures, Second it creates 3/3 artifact creatures out of your lands if you find yourself in a flood or a stall. It encourages a splash for red which has it's fair share of support for artifacts and for cards such as Lightning Bolt and Anger of the Gods to fend of aggro. It's cons are that it costs one more than lightning greaves and opens up to a wider splash of red..
I'll stop recommending red cards in this blue deck for now and let you all reflect on this. Happy brewing! :')
Edit: Just realized you can use Through the Breach on the opponent's turn to Kuldotha Forgemaster into Blightsteel Colossus, effectively going for the kill on your turn. Like a modern Tinker :3 think of the higher mana cost paid for the instant speed.
MODERN: TezzeretAoB
TINY LEADERS: Varolz Infect
PAUPER: Midnight Presence
-in my Tezzeret AoB list it really is always an all star. You only need to keep 1 card back (and you'll likely draw into one from a day's undoing) and it helps you protect your artifacts from things like Hurkyl's recall or shatterstorm etc - because they will also draw into their artifact hate when you wheel them. Negate is a cheap counter to everything that matters (artifact destruction)
So I did some playtesting on Sunday and confirmed the deck was definitely a viable strategy.
I played 5 games against infect (3-2)
I lost two games in a row due to mana issues (in a deck that has essentially 40 mana sources) - but whatev.
Then I won 3 games in a row - twice with Blightsteel and once with angel preventing me from losing at 12 infect.
It is funny - I am an infect deck right? lol
Day's Undoing is a little bit scary, but fun to cast. If I don't have some sort of board protection (skite or chalice) it is hard to justify letting someone like infect untap with 8 cards. It worked out every time though... Chalice and/or skite is as backbreaking as it gets for that deck.
I also played 2 games against the enchantment prison deck (0-2)
This is a very very bad matchup. I need a very good draw that includes echoing truth to win.
These experiences, even though limited, allowed me to reflect on the nature of the deck and the choices I made in deckbuilding. I was overall very proud of the execution, and many onlookers were dazzled by what the deck was doing. I think Day's Undoing is the greatest asset, and simultaneously the greatest weakness of the deck. I don't know if I will keep it, but it did work relatively well.
So I am a fan of the suggestion to add red. I am not a fan of Through the Breach as it is too reliant on having a bad draw - that is having your blightsteel in your hand. If your blightsteel is not in hand it is essentially another dead card. Quicksilver Amulet or Master Transmuter are in a similar boat, but with the added benefit that you only need one in the deck as it is a tutorable artifact that solves the blighsteel in hand dilemma. The biggest reason I am a fan of red is Ghirapur Aether Grid and Blood Moon. Grid is a secondary win condition, a reusable removal spell, and is a great answer to stony silence. Blood Moon is Blood Moon. I can cast Blood Moon as early as T1, but more frequently on T2-3. Hammer of Purphoros is in my brewing pile, to be tinkered with as well. Anger of the Gods is agreat option, but I fear the RR in its cost is too high.
I want to try out Fabricate in place of Day's Undoing.
Here is where I am at now:
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
1x Platinum Angel
1x Blightsteel Colossus
1x Quicksilver Amulet
Protect & Disrupt (14):
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Spellskite
4x Lightning Greaves
1x Ghirapur Aether Grid
1x Ensnaring Bridge
Mana Acceleration (15):
4x Mox Opal
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Mind Stone
3x Talisman of Dominance
4x Fabricate
1x Tezzeret the Seeker
Lands (19):
4x Darksteel Citadel
4x Ghost Quarter
5x Island
4x Shivan Reef
1x Sea Gate Wreckage
1x Academy Ruins
1x Pithing Needle
3x Echoing Truth
2x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Torpor Orb
3x Blood Moon
2x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Ghirapur Aether Grid
1x Witchbane Orb
1x Spine of Ish Sah
Shivan Reef instead of Glimmervoid as I have less zero drop artifacts now.
Mishra's Bauble and Everflowing Chalice underperformed, so I cut them for more resiliency and better mana access...
In testing, Lightning Greaves was an allstar for the deck. Greaves on an angel is just nasty. Comboing off on T4 with greaves is super fun.
Tezzeret the seeker can get my toolbelt artifacts, quicksilver amulet, or can act as another win condition. With a little more effort he can get a kuldotha forgemaster or even a platinum angel.
-------------------------------
So in breweing, I noticed a nifty synergy:
Ghirapur Aether Grid and Clock of Omens
with effects like
Storage Matrix, Howling Mine, Trinisphere and others
Interesting, no? Not for this deck though...
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
MODERN: TezzeretAoB
TINY LEADERS: Varolz Infect
PAUPER: Midnight Presence
I definitely see where you are going with it, but based on my experience the deck doesn't have room for such a conditional play.
Through the breach
Quicksilver amulet is not in my list because it is an awesome thing I want to be doing. It is a resilient backup plan that happens to be a tutorable artifact. Master transmuter is quicker (with lightning greaves), but dies to... everything.
On the off chance you draw an amulet and a fabricate (and no forgemaster), you can tutor up a blightsteel and put it into play that way if it is more convenient to do so. Ideally you sidestep this whole issue and just combo with kuldotha the simple way.
The deck has to have something I can grab with Kuldotha Forgemaster (or now Fabricate) to put the blightsteel colossus in my hand onto the board...
if you have 6 mana (one is blue), a forgemaster in hand, a blightsteel in hand, and a greaves in play you can tutor up the transmuter and attack with the blighsteel the same turn. Otherwise the amulet is better imo.
Through the breach doesn't solve any of these problems in quite the same way... it seems to add more deckbuilding conditions with little reward for doing so.
I really appreciate the suggestion, but I cannot see how it would help the deck. Maybe you can put a list together with a more detailed explantion? Maybe I am missing something?
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
Jwelt is catching some strong winds out there: Tezzeret, the Seeker is a terrific add: Ensnaring Bridge or Lightning Greaves are easily searchable. The mana base is shaping up, and I agree on the drops of Mishra's Bauble and Everflowing Chalice.
If you release Day's Undoing (keep that option open) for graveyard filling choices like Thirst for Knowledge, then you can start to do some neat Hand/Board/Graveyard tricks with Scarecrone and Master Transmuter. They are both vulnerable, but not really - you are playing (4) Chalice of the Void and (4) Spellskite. Remember that the transmuter is an artifact herself. One of the neat things she can do is swap the bridge around with other artifacts to open and close the door, as it were.
Incomplete thoughts:
Pili-Pala - I recall some sort of combo with that bugger, but not sure if it could help.
Extra Turns - Is this a mechanic worth looking into. In a way, if they don't have blockers, you could see yourself as an all-in win. Such that cards like Final Fortune (modern illegal) could be considered.
Ral Zarek is too slow.
Lastly, there was this strange outlier deck from a premier event in Japan about a year ago. It featured Blightsteel Colossus, Master Transmuter, Wurmcoil Engine, and a bizarre array of spells and tricks. I've been searching for a way to recall the decklist...I'm sorry - no success. We were discussing the deck in the U/B Tezzeret thread. Anyone remember???
Tezzeret the Seeker is a card I am excited about adding to the deck.
I really wish there was a Talisman in izzet colors. I tried Izzet signet and it just doesn't make the cut...
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
1x Blightsteel Colossus
4x Master Transmuter
2x Wurmcoil Engine
Instants and Sorceries (11):
2x Apostle's Blessing
1x Slaughter Pact
4x Thirst for Knowledge
2x Dismember
2x Damnation
Other Spells (20):
2x Mox Opal
4x Dimir Signet
2x Talisman of Dominance
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Torpor Orb
1x Lightning Greaves
2x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Academy Ruins
3x Creeping Tarpit
3x Darkslick Shores
4x Darksteel Citadel
4x Inkmoth Nexus
3x Island
2x Swamp
2x Underground River
Side (15):
2x Chalice of the Void
1x Consume the Meek
2x Echoing Truth
2x Pack Rat
2x Pithing Needle
2x Smother
2x Sower of Temptation
2x Spellskite
It is the Official Primer's stated aim to keep this deck as a Kuldotha Forger creation. Let's all respect that. Again, just some food for thought...
1. Forgemaster does not have haste and you have to wait a whole turn before activating him, and then a whole other turn to attack with Blightsteel, not only that the risks for the combo are higher. (That is if you don't have lightning Greaves which you won't always have).
2. Through the Breach is harder to hate on than Lightning Greaves which is equipped at sorcery speed! Don't worry about your artifact count, Darksteel Citadel will help that.
3. It's not only for giving Kuldotha flash but also haste, and also remove summoning sickness on Blightsteel Colossus.
4. Realistically, you will find Amulet slow and mana draining which is why it doesn't see play in modern. Master Transmuter has the same problem.
The idea is really to protect the combo more efficiently by doing it on the opponent's turn than our own, combos at instant speed usually have a better chance at succeeding than slower ones and ones which needs more pieces, Through the Breach permits you to litterally have a 2 card combo in having the Forgemaster or the Blightsteel itself and going for the win as fast as you can. Lightning Greaves can be disrupted much more easily with artifact hate than you think because of it's sorcery speed and ads another piece to your combo. (I'm not telling you to not play any, but to not put all your eggs in one basket.)
Also with all due respect saying why not play Emrakul instead is like saying why not playing Splinter Twin instead... and actually in our case it's better since we have more ways to get to cheat the Blightsteel than an Emrakul.
I also found a neat interaction with using Through the Breach with Wurmcoil Engine, it lets you attack with the big bad coil and then it leaves it's tokens on the battlefield post TTB. A la Feldon of the Third Path.
Okay I rushed making this list but that's my general idea of how I would build the deck:
Land (22)
4 Darksteel Citadel
3 Ghost Quarter
4 Inkmoth Nexus
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Sea Gate Wreckage
3 Steam Vents
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Spellskite
2 Wurmcoil Engine
Artifact (15)
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Lightning Greaves
4 Mind Stone
4 Mox Opal
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Through the Breach
I also added Thirst for Knowledge instead of fabricate as a way to not only shuffle back our beloved Blightsteel Colossus but also to dig for the combo.
I agree with Raystack that the deck will go nowhere with the menace of the Eldrazi and that we have to wait for ze banhammer.
MODERN: TezzeretAoB
TINY LEADERS: Varolz Infect
PAUPER: Midnight Presence
Now i can see where you are going with it. I will post more comments when im at the computer. I wish i had through the breach now !
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
in the interest of the brew I am reworking this thread to be a general brew factory for Kuldotha Forgemaster decks. Since there is no real established way to go about the deck I think it is best to keep options open.
I will be updating the OP with decklists from the various brews I have been able to find on the internet from the past as well as Dusk Horizon's new TTB brew.
I hope this is a welcome change!
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
Now I understand the principle you are working towards, and I like it a lot. So to sum up- the value in Through the breach is 2-fold: It gives dudes haste, and enables Blightsteel - all at instant speed. This allows you to essentially cut Lightning Greaves (as you have done) from the list and add a few more juicy artifact creatures.
This does come at a cost (which you are definitely mitigating): less artifacts in the deck.
Using fewer ramp artifacts and cheap permanents like Lightning Greaves hurts Mox Opal a bit. I see the Inkmoth Nexi added to the main, but activating it to get metalcraft is net gain = 0. It is still great for color fixing though, but worse in multiples now as it's upside took a hit.
I also feel like putting a wurmcoil into play for 1 less mana with haste is not the best since it won't necessarily give the best payoff. Possibly having another Blightsteel would help to leverage TTB. I also think I like having access to Fabricate for the sideboard bullet tutoring potential. This is a major asset to the deck. I also don't think the use of Scalding Tarn over Shivan Reef is justified - having a mostly painless manabase is big in this format, adding a slight amount of resiliency.
These are some changes I might try:
-1 TTB
-2 Wurmcoil Engine
-4 Thirst for knowledge
+1 Blightsteel Colossus
+4 Fabricate
+2 Talisman of Dominance
-4 Scalding Tarn
-1 Mountain
-3 Steam Vents
-2 Inkmoth Nexus
+4 Shivan Reef
+4 Island
+2 Glimmervoid
Remember you also have SSG to add red mana...
Overall - is it worth sacrificing utility and maybe a little consistency for the combat tricks of TTB? It could be - please let us know if you do any testing! Awesome brew man.
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
I agree with the landbase change, this was a bit thrown togheter so I didn't have the time to think about it too much.
If you think about it, having 4 Kuldotha Forgemaster, 2 Blightsteel Colossus and 4 TTB, you get around the same combo consistency as Splinter Twin which is quite encouraging (albeit not the same combo at all xd), sadly for Forgemaster to work, your Blightsteel has to be in your deck which makes me reticent on using Fabricate over Thirst for Knowledge, opinion?
MODERN: TezzeretAoB
TINY LEADERS: Varolz Infect
PAUPER: Midnight Presence
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
2x Master Transmuter
Payoff (6)
1x Blightsteel Colossus
1x Platinum Angel
1x Sharuum the Hegemon
1x Sphinx of the Steel Wind
2x Wurmcoil Engine
Defense (6)
4x Spellskite
2x Lightning Greaves
Disruption (8)
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Dispel
3x Path to Exile
2x Spell Snare
1x Relic of Progenitus
4x Mox Opal
4x Talisman of Progress
Card Draw & Tutoring (7)
4x Thirst for Knowledge
3x Fabricate
Land (20)
4x Darksteel Citadel
4x Flooded Strand
1x Hallowed Fountain
2x Inkmoth Nexus
3x Island
1x Plains
4x Tendo Ice Bridge
1x Watery Grave
1x Cyclonic Rift
2x Detention Sphere
1x Dispel
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Path to Exile
1x Pithing Needle
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Spell Pierce
1x Timely Reinforcements
1x Torpor Orb
The combination of 6 enablers and Thirst for Knowledge + Fabricate has finally gotten the deck to a quasi-competitive level of consistency.
My friend really wanted to run Sharuum and Steel Wind so I settled on Esper colors to make sure I could hard cast them late game if I didn't find any enablers (Running esper and several 5 color mana sources also helps Engineered Explosives). I tried to build around Tezz but ultimately found that unless I wanted to commit more resources to artifact-based board control he'd get picked off before I could untap with him. He's usually paired with Ensnaring Bridge but in this deck I found that I wasn't emptying my hand fast enough for it to help. Without Tezz, I decided that going UWb was better than UBw, since white gives us MB Path and a ton of excellent sideboard options.
Fabricate helps us find artifact sideboard options and gives the deck a nice toolbox aspect. Thirst for Knowledge's instant speed becomes even more relevant when paired with instant speed disruption. I also love that you can pitch a Payoff card, tap Kuldotha Forgemaster and fetch Sharuum to rez the discarded Payoff card in a nice 2-for-1.
T2 (on the play) Talisman of Progress -> Spell Snare is a juicy tempo play whenever it comes up.
The biggest problem so far has been dealing with Stony Silence, as I'm sure you're all aware. Spell Snare is fairly effective if you've got it in hand, and Cyclonic Rift or Detention Sphere will (at least temporarily) take care of a SS if it hits the board.
Playing against hyper aggressive decks can also be tricky. Luckily if you're facing a really linear deck you can side out some of the defensive spells (Spellskite, Counterspells) and load up with some combination of 4x Path, 2x Explosives, 1x Cyclonic Rift, 2x Detention Sphere, and 1x Timely Reinforcements to give yourself some breathing room. Being able to tutor EE with Fabricate helps.
MB has 1x Relic of Progenitus right now but this is a flex slot that will be for whatever the most widely effective hate artifact is.
Overall the deck is a ton of fun to play between the cheap interaction, toolbox artifacts, Timmy-level monster threats, and the occasional (rage inducing) free win off of a greave'd Platinum Angel. Looking forward to Kaladesh! Stay tuned.
It's a fun deck right? I love it as well. I have a few suggestions for you based on my experience with the deck:
@Airwave
How are you liking the ramp creatures? I always avoided them as to negate my opponent's removal usually opting for things like Mind Stone.
Can you share your list?
Also looking forward to Kaladesh!
Edit: So I haven't revisted this deck since sword of the meek was unbanned. I think it could add to the deck...
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
1x Platinum Angel
1x Blightsteel Colossus
1x Quicksilver Amulet
Alternate Combo (5:)
3x Thopter Foundry
2x Sword of the Meek
Protection (16:)
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Spellskite
4x Lightning Greaves
4x Welding Jar
4x Thirst for Knowledge
Mana (28:)
4x Mox Opal
4x Talisman of Dominance
1x Academy Ruins
2x Cavern of Souls
4x Darksteel Citadel
4x Ghost Quarter
3x Island
1x Swamp
1x Sea Gate Wreckage
4x Underground River
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
While going all-out like that is viable against uninteractive linear decks, it's left my key pieces open to getting sniped by instant speed removal faster than I can equip Greaves. Anyone that's played against the deck more than one game knows to hold instant speed removal to snipe the fatty, or ideally the enabler before they can bring in a fatty. God forbid the opponent lets you sac your 3 artifacts to Forgemaster's ability and then Paths your Blightsteel (Q_Q)... You're probably not coming back from that game.
The other factor is that Greaves alone don't do much to advance your board state and that multiple Greaves on the field don't really provide more value, aside from being another artifact to sac if needed. Conversely, extra Spellskites & counterspells provide additional layers of protection even in multiples, they don't leave an opening for your opponent, and they all do something beneficial to the game even if you don't have anything else on the board. I might try a third Greaves, but I'm a little hesitant to run the full playset in the main.
In earlier versions of the deck I ran fewer fatties and tried to focus more on setting up the combo by running Serum Visions, a fourth Fabricate, even Condescend. This did make the combo itself more consistent, but it was also slower and full of more "air", giving aggressive opponents more breathing room. I found that I'd rather have the classic combination of card draw + cheap interaction + 6 threats so that I could play an interactive game and disrupt the opponent long enough to hard cast my threats if needed. I might trim one fatty, but 5-6 is rather common for this archetype as far as my reading as shown, and I like occasionally drawing a threat or two organically rather than always needing another spell to fetch them first.
The other benefit is that Grafdigger's Cage is everywhere right now (5th most played spell in Modern) and it shuts down Kuladotha. Being able to organically draw and hard-cast threats as a backup plan is good insurance against hate cards (we have our hands full worrying about Stony Silence as it is).
The 7 draw spells have been great. Like most ramp decks, one of this build's biggest weaknesses is drawing too much ramp and defensive material ("I have 9 mana.. I'm ready to do something! Please!?"). Thirst and Fabricate are ideal selection tools to dig for whatever you need and keep you at card advantage. If I'm at 5-6 mana I will often skip the enabler altogether and just Fabricate a Wurmcoil Engine for more immediate board control.
For those of you that run Chalice, how has it worked for you? What do you set it to? 1? What matchups is it most effective in? Is it worth playing without Simian Spirit Guide to set it to 1 on T1? Setting it to 1 T1 or maybe even T2 sounds decent against a lot of decks but I imagine pulling it late as a top deck would be somewhat sad, not to mention pulling your second, third, or fourth copies. Grateful for any data or feedback on this.
I think I will try reducing greaves and increasing threats with wurmcoil.
Have you tried thopter combo in the deck at all - what are your thoughts on that?
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
1) Ramping rocks
2) Prison effects
3) Artifact protection
4) Targeted disruption
5) Transmuter effects
6) Huge Payoff Beaters
For the most part the vehicles don't seem appropriate for this deck. One possible exception is the Smuggler's Copter for those builds running Vedalken Engineer etc.
I've been waiting for some good Payoff cards, but I haven't seen anything good enough yet. The Gearhulk cycle is interesting but they just aren't as good as Wurmcoil Engine at 6 CMC.
The card that seems to have the most potential right now is Padeem:
He seems a little bit too expensive relative to his immediate impact to earn a place in the MB but I could see holding 1x in the SB to slot in against grindy control matches where you need both the the card advantage and the hexproof protection. He'll become the focal point for removal but at least that's one more roadblock they have to get through, and it's nice that he's got 4 toughness.
I'm still holding out hope for some blue disruption or card draw spells that benefit from running artifacts, similar to Stoic Rebuttal or Thoughtcast.
The good news is that they're printing astonishingly beautiful versions of many of the cards in this deck:
I'll be replacing my (currently proxied) Tendo Ice Bridge copies with Aether Hub since it's significantly cheaper and functionally equivalent in most circumstances.
Another card I'm considering is Filigree Familiar. It could be an okay blocker or something good to sacrifice to Forgemaster. If the card draw was part of his ETB ability I'd definitely make space for 1-2x in the MB, but as an on death trigger I'm less excited. At 3 CMC Timely Reinforcements seems like a better card against aggro -- potentially 6 life and virtual card advantage via three 1/1 blockers -- even if it's not an artifact. With that said Mono U Tron players are pretty ecstatic about the card so I may be undervaluing it.