I wanted to write a little "blurb" (a lot of this will probably end up in the Primer) about what I've found in recent testing (approximately 300 games since Origins printing) and general interactions/lines that sometimes go unseen (or that I get asked about). It will come in pieces, but I'll hit the "Edit" so it's all here:
Ok....so I've tested for another 12+ hours and found the following items:
1. The combos are simply awesome.
2. Sylvan Messenger really helps "string" elves; but at 4-CMC it sometimes set in my hand or "ended" turns...I don't think anymore than 2 copies is worth it.
3. I found myself trying to find cards to help draw into the combo, develop card advantage, etc.
4. Lands are HUGE factors to the deck...both Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx and Kessig Wolf Run
5. I would love to run Coiling Oracle given it's ridiculous power; but in a combo deck Dwynen's Elite outclasses it (as it has it's own infinite combo).
6. In Combo decks, Shaman of the Pack appears to be a better win-con than Ezuri, Renegade Leader. You do have a TON of mana, so a 1-of Ezuri is never a bad idea; but the "instant speed" nature of Shaman's kill is better.
I had got myself down to a "core" that I felt was the "Core" for my current decks (since Origins) :
So the two win conditions are Shaman of the Pack and Kessig wolf Run. It is super important that elf decks have a mana-sink (actually the more the merrier)...Ezuri, Renegade Leader and Joraga Warcaller are both amazing choices as well. I think two win-cons is enough main board (as you want to move pretty quickly game one).
I was working with cards like Nylea's Presence, Sylvan Messenger, Coiling Oracle and others trying maintain card advantage and find ways to continue to draw into the combo....it was good, but the deck just felt a little "slow". I was DESTROYING fair decks (jund, junk, delver, etc.) but the deck seemed just a 1/2 turn slower than I wanted to be on average. I felt very strongly about the "Core" above; so I was basically left with 3 "slots" to utilize. Initially I thought of Elvish Archdruid...
Elvish Archdruid is better now because of Dwynen's Elite...The mana can be sunk into Genesis Wave, Kessig Wolf Run, and Cloudstone Curio loops. The only problem is that Elvish Archdruid can be a little slow...as a 3-drop that is mostly utilized to tap for mana; you don't really need it in an infinite combo deck like this one...it was a mainstay in elf decks of the past; however those decks didn't have a VERY important piece we have...Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx. This is WILDLY important because:
a. We can create crazy mana through Arbor Elf, Utopia Sprawl, and Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
b. We can fill those slots with potential combo pieces.
c. Our mana is not 100% solely focused on Elves...boardwipes and removal don't effect us nearly as harshly.
We can get away without playing Elvish Archdruid simply because we don't need the mana..
After testing and testing...I thought to myself, "I wish I just had another copy of Heritage Druid, Elvish Visionary, Cloudstone, and Nykthos..." Immediately after thinking this, I remembered a few cards (one recently brought to my attention and one that has been in Elf decks forever):
Hello, I recently built Collected Company elves and I have been thinking about building the combo and playing it at times. I have followed combo elves for a while now (pre-company) and noticed there have been quite a few changes to the deck since I have previously looked. A have some questions about the changes.
1. Is it really better to run Shaman of the Pack and Genesis Wave over Craterhoof Behemoth? It seems to me like you have to run 4 waves and 1 to 4 shamans where before you only needed the one craterhoof (pacts gets combo stuff so it doesn't count). Doesn't devoting these extra slots to wincons make the combo less consistent?
2. Has everyone just given up on Beck // Call? Having only the four Cloudstone Curio and no way to tutor for it seems inconsistent. Having the 4 becks would make it much more likely to have one of the two in your opening hand. Not to mention, Dwynen's Elite works amazingly when trying to go off with Beck. It draws two cards just like Elvish Visionary while still paying for itself due to heritage druid.
Hello, I recently built Collected Company elves and I have been thinking about building the combo and playing it at times. I have followed combo elves for a while now (pre-company) and noticed there have been quite a few changes to the deck since I have previously looked. A have some questions about the changes.
1. Is it really better to run Shaman of the Pack and Genesis Wave over Craterhoof Behemoth? It seems to me like you have to run 4 waves and 1 to 4 shamans where before you only needed the one craterhoof (pacts gets combo stuff so it doesn't count). Doesn't devoting these extra slots to wincons make the combo less consistent?
2. Has everyone just given up on Beck // Call? Having only the four Cloudstone Curio and no way to tutor for it seems inconsistent. Having the 4 becks would make it much more likely to have one of the two in your opening hand. Not to mention, Dwynen's Elite works amazingly when trying to go off with Beck. It draws two cards just like Elvish Visionary while still paying for itself due to heritage druid.
To answer your questions....yes and no :). In seriousness though, Combo elves has gotten a little complicated with the addition of the new cards. If you can tell from my above comments over the last couple days...I have been wracking my brain and TESTING, TESTING, TESTING to see where the new cards work best as well as where the best build lies with the cards available to us. The Origins Elves truly shook up the combo elves deck to it's core....
Dwynen's Elite is actually the biggest offender It changes how you want to play because:
1. It's amazing with cards that give you "credit" for each elf (such as Elvish Archdruid,
2. It can speed up early turns with Heritage Druid (and can even make a Turn One Heritage Druid viable)
2. It created a new infinite combo:
This 3-card combo creates infinite 1/1 Elf tokens....the best win-con of course from here is Shaman of the Pack (as it is an instant speed win). You could also do some kind of haste enabler, cast a craterhoof (of course you'd have to have a lot of mana...which would work if you figured out a way to untap all of the creatures like Intruder Alarm.; but then you're getting pretty far down the rabbit hole..) or some other means of taking advantage of infinite creatures. etc....In honesty, many games you can just pass and attack the next turn.
Using Beck
You are right that you could literally play a deck VERY close to the original Combo deck with Beck replacing Glimpse of Nature....you can LITERALLY play the exact same 56 cards and just replace Glimpse with Beck...(you'd upgrade Boreal Druid to Elvish Mystic, but that's just because they've released another mana-dork since that time)....Gavin Verhey actually wrote an article on this:
The truth is that this has been around for a pretty good amount of time now, and it hasn't broke through yet. I think there are more reasons than just the fact that Beck is not Glimpse (is a 2-CMC AND requires Blue); but that is by far the largest issue. It drives you crazy because it is so close yet so far away The beauty of Glimpse of Nature was how easy it was to play during "stringing" elves and how early it could be played....Beck just doesn't do it.
The only problem here is that the additional blue mana makes a HUGE difference. On paper it doesn't feel like it should; but it just does. You can't string things as easily, often times it gets stuck in your hand (because where before you could go Gllmpse, Elf, Elf on 3 and literally just string from there), now at best you can go Beck, Elf, done).
I do have to preface all this with the fact that I haven't tested Beck nearly enough. I've focused a lot of my time on Cloudstone Curio.
The Combo / Aggro Dilemma
My current biggest Dilemma is I don't know whether to go "all out Combo" or have a more well rounded deck that is a great aggro deck with multiple "oops I win" combos that can be hit as early as turn four.
There have been a few big changes since Extended Elves was THE deck to beat:
The banning of Glimpse of Nature and the printing of Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx are really the two biggest ones; but all of them have potential impacts on how elves can be played/utilized.
I, however, have had a lot of success with Genesis Wave. I've found the card advantage/resource advantage is paramount to Modern (it's a big reason why I run Abundant Growth's as well given that they have a great synergy with both devotion and Cloudstone Curio)...Genesis Wave acts like a "quasi-tutor" for all of the important cards in the deck (they are all permanents)...it basically reads "look at the top X cards of your library; put all combo pieces onto the battlefield...ends up being like a "super Collected Company" in many cases. So this is the deck I've tried out the last 8 or so hours.
I've literally spent the last 72 hours pretty much testing non-stop; but I still feel like there is ways to go. I do feel quite strongly that there is a very set "core" of cards (really like 50 of the 60 in the main). From there, the only choices are:
Really, these are more likely down to personal/play-style preferences; however I'm going to test both and let you know which works better for me. There of course are still options like Weird Harvest, Temur Sabertooth, and Garruk Wildspeaker as well; I just haven't found room for them yet.
One thing I can attest to is that Kessig Wolf Run is a great additional win-con. In those grindy match ups where they can pick pieces of the combo off; there is nothing better than being able to turn any elf into a huge, trampling threat.
Anwyo, that's what I found in this last 72-hour testing period. I hope this helps answer your questions or at minimum provide a little insight into what I've been up to in trying to make "Combo Elves" work. As always, PLEASE let me know what you think. I'm open to all of the help/criticism I can get. There are a ton of great ideas, players, and brewers on here that have their own takes as well...so they could potentially offer ideas I can't.
I have another 6-hour slot open tomorrow to test and I'll post what I find then too! Once I've set my main board (which I'm fairly certain will be VERY close to the above); I will discuss my sideboard choices as well.
"Fair" match ups like Grixis /Grxis Control are generally favorable as we can "out advantage" them. Twin is tough game one. We pretty much have to race them (generally whoever is on the play wins :). Post boarx, however, we are in very good shape (as a good portion of our board is dedicated to destroyung combo decks (will dive deeper into the board today)
Thanks for all the info CurdBros. I will definitely give your deck a try as you bring up some good points. I would like to share the list I am currently trying out. It is pretty much all in on the combo but of course you always have the option of just pacting for the craterhoof and casting it. (Which is another great reason to run hoof). I have been mostly focusing on the mainboard so the sideboard is just some random stuff.
I have found the deck to be pretty solid so far and to actually combo though removal quite often. A few things that I have noticed when playing,
1. Dwynen's Elite is crazy good with beck. If you draw this when trying to go off with Beck it gives you two cards and two mana. Seriously try it out and you will see what I mean.
2. I think the absence of Elvish Archdruid has been really good. When comboing with heritage druid I find that it is very important to maintain the 1 elf/1 mana ratio (which Elite does beautifully).
So far I am quite satisfied with the list and will probably try it when I get the actual cards together. I think Beck has some great potential especially with the printing of elite.
Thanks for all the info CurdBros. I will definitely give your deck a try as you bring up some good points. I would like to share the list I am currently trying out. It is pretty much all in on the combo but of course you always have the option of just pacting for the craterhoof and casting it. (Which is another great reason to run hoof). I have been mostly focusing on the mainboard so the sideboard is just some random stuff.
I have found the deck to be pretty solid so far and to actually combo though removal quite often. A few things that I have noticed when playing,
1. Dwynen's Elite is crazy good with beck. If you draw this when trying to go off with Beck it gives you two cards and two mana. Seriously try it out and you will see what I mean.
2. I think the absence of Elvish Archdruid has been really good. When comboing with heritage druid I find that it is very important to maintain the 1 elf/1
mana ratio (which Elite does beautifully).
So far I am quite satisfied with the list and will probably try it when I get the actual cards together. I think Beck has some great potential especially with the printing of elite.
Awesome list!!! Dwynen's Elite does seem unreal with Beck (as it is with Heritage Druid). I will certainly give it a try!
You are right about Elvish Archdruid...it is a slower card that should definitely not be considered a "combo staple at all. The more 1-it's the better!!
Very cool list. I'll try it out tonight too. Keep up the great work!
I’ve been playing CoCo Elves in Modern and I personally feel that it’s time has passed. I feel that too many decks are maindecking sweep, and it’s becoming harder to win with the deck. I feel it’s like ‘Dragonstorm’ decks of old. It was absurdly powerful, until it hit popularity, then people knew how to maindeck / sideboard for it. The reason I’m writing all of this is that I want to switch over to the Combo Elves because I think that it’s more explosive than CoCo Elves.
This deck can just ‘go off’ and gets around Pyroclasm type effects. You go from 0-60 in 2 seconds and with one big turn. By that time, they’re sweeper is useless. My issue is how scattered all of these decks are. I’ve read through the primer, and looked at older decklists, and they’re very inconsistent. The only common thread is the Nettle / Heritage / Visionary / Cloudstone interactions (and some decks don’t run the Curio in lieu of other cards like Intruder Alarm, Beck // Call, and Genesis Wave / Weird Harvest).
I guess what I’m missing out of the newer versions of the deck is card explanations. I get that you need to make B to play a Shaman of the Pack and that’s why all those 1cc Enchant Land Cantrip cards are in there, but without Genesis Wave, it seems like you’re lowering the ability to ‘string together’ your elves (by lowering your elf count). When Glimpse of Nature decks were doing well, there was one big turn. You can start that turn very early because of the 1cc. With the newer lists I’ve seen posted here, it seems like it’s build-up to a Genesis Wave which seems to be a psudo-Glimpse turn. Isn’t that too long to combo? Twin decks can win turn 4 with 2 cards (and counter backup), and Instant Reanimator can win on turn 3. Pyroclasm hits on turn 2, and even with an Archdruid out, you’re still wiped. I understand that Genesis Wave is super good in our deck. Other than itself or Summoner’s Pact, all cards revealed with X will be put into play. My only concern is that the turn you play Wave is too slow.
I might be underestimating these lists, and I might be ignorant to some of the nuances of the deck, but it seems like without a card like Beck // Call, you’re too slow.
Can someone shed more insight into the deck and how a normal turn plays out? I get the idea, I know the combos, and I’ve read the primer. It still feels like a group of lists without cohesion. Thanks in advance.
-Yawg
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I’ve been playing CoCo Elves in Modern and I personally feel that it’s time has passed. I feel that too many decks are maindecking sweep, and it’s becoming harder to win with the deck. I feel it’s like ‘Dragonstorm’ decks of old. It was absurdly powerful, until it hit popularity, then people knew how to maindeck / sideboard for it. The reason I’m writing all of this is that I want to switch over to the Combo Elves because I think that it’s more explosive than CoCo Elves.
This deck can just ‘go off’ and gets around Pyroclasm type effects. You go from 0-60 in 2 seconds and with one big turn. By that time, they’re sweeper is useless. My issue is how scattered all of these decks are. I’ve read through the primer, and looked at older decklists, and they’re very inconsistent. The only common thread is the Nettle / Heritage / Visionary / Cloudstone interactions (and some decks don’t run the Curio in lieu of other cards like Intruder Alarm, Beck // Call, and Genesis Wave / Weird Harvest).
I guess what I’m missing out of the newer versions of the deck is card explanations. I get that you need to make B to play a Shaman of the Pack and that’s why all those 1cc Enchant Land Cantrip cards are in there, but without Genesis Wave, it seems like you’re lowering the ability to ‘string together’ your elves (by lowering your elf count). When Glimpse of Nature decks were doing well, there was one big turn. You can start that turn very early because of the 1cc. With the newer lists I’ve seen posted here, it seems like it’s build-up to a Genesis Wave which seems to be a psudo-Glimpse turn. Isn’t that too long to combo? Twin decks can win turn 4 with 2 cards (and counter backup), and Instant Reanimator can win on turn 3. Pyroclasm hits on turn 2, and even with an Archdruid out, you’re still wiped. I understand that Genesis Wave is super good in our deck. Other than itself or Summoner’s Pact, all cards revealed with X will be put into play. My only concern is that the turn you play Wave is too slow.
I might be underestimating these lists, and I might be ignorant to some of the nuances of the deck, but it seems like without a card like Beck // Call, you’re too slow.
Can someone shed more insight into the deck and how a normal turn plays out? I get the idea, I know the combos, and I’ve read the primer. It still feels like a group of lists without cohesion. Thanks in advance.
-Yawg
You are ABSOLUTELY right that we haven't developed a "definitive" list. I'm not personally one for a "single best" list. I think things like meta, playstyle, etc. make huge differences in Modern and even what would be considered a "lesser" build in a vacuum can be made up with in deck knowledge in Modern...having said this, there are absolutely "stock" or "core" ideas that should be in every elf Combo deck. I will try to word the Primer in a more "cohesive" way, at this point, however, I just didn't want to (a) discourage anyone who was building their own version from trying new things and (b) act like I was a "know it all" when it cames to combo elves (as it really is somewhat an underexamined archetype). The third biggest issue actually came with Origins. With the printing of several elves with cool ETB triggers; it changed the ways you could play combo elves. We simply haven't been able to test them enough to determine if (a) any are "good" enough for Modern Combo Elves (although I think at least two are) and (b) exactly how many of each should be played.
There really has never been a definitive answer on the following questions. I believe before you can discuss card choices, you really have to answer the following:
1. Should you play Cloudstone Curio or Intruder Alarm as your "engine" card?
2. IF you choose Cloudstone Curio, so you also play Beck?
3. Do you format the deck in a way that focuses purely on speed, or do you build it based on resiliency?
4. Once you've decided on this, are any of the new Origins elves worth playing?
5. What is the best win-con of choice for your build.
These are three VERY important questions and really any time you are discussing a Combo Elf deck list; you pretty much have to answer these questions before you even begin discussing your card choices.
For me Personally, I currently answer the questions this way:
1. I prefer Cloudstone Curio.
2. I don't currently play Beck with my Cloudstone Curio.
3. I have formatted the majority of my builds toward Resiliency. I feel like CoCo Elves focuses on speed enough, so we should at least start by exploring a different avenue. I've built them more of a great value deck that also simply goes "oops I win" over 50% of the time very quickly and has built in inevitability.
4. I personally believe Shaman of the Pack and Dwynen's Elite are useable in my build for many reasons.
5. My current win-con of choice is Shaman of the Pack (with a secondary win-con of Kessig Wolf Run)
Hopefully this provides a little more clarification on why I made the choices I have during testing. Please understand that the above answers are not necessarily the best choices. They are just the choices I'm currently working with. Given these assumptions, just to answer a few of your questions:
a. The most important is the "looping" of Abundant Growths. Because of the way Cloudstone Curio works, once you've hit two such enchantments, you can then "loop" them to draw cards:
if you have 1x Abundant Growth and 1x Utopia Sprawl each card draw will cost you [m]G[/m] for every Forest you have (as you can keep enchanting Forests and taping them for GG) and GG for every mana beyond this.
if you have 2x Abundant Growth you can draw a card a the cost of G per card.
Also, once you have an infinite mana combo set up; simply having an Abundant Growth and another enchantment allows you to draw out your whole deck. It's just another nice way to draw out your entire deck outside of either Elvish Visionary and/or Genesis Wave. You want to have as many ways to do so as possible (as hitting infinite mana is great and is something the deck can do quite often...so you want to have many ways to utilize this mana as possible). Most infinite elf decks rely on getting Elvish Visionary on top of infinite mana. This allows you to do so with cards you are using anyways for other reasons.
I can't tell you how many games I've one just "valuing out" the opponent by drawing 5+ cards in a single turn until I hit my Heritage Druid and "went off"
b. They keep you from being as devastated by board wipes. You are absolutely right that the downside is that every Utopia Sprawl could be a Llanowar Elves...but when the opponent plays Pyroclasm you'll be glad it's a Utopia Sprawl
c. They help fix mana. While this seems somewhat unimportant outside of the traditional benefits of fixing (especially in 2-color versions) since we really are just lightly splashing any non-green colors; there is actually one area where it can matter very much IF you are playing Shaman of the Pack, Kessig Wolf Run, or another non-green win-condition. This gets a little complex, and I ALWAYS get very verbose/wordy; but here goes!
When you have infinite mana via one of your ocmbos, you have only infinite GREEN mana. This doesn't matter if your final win-condition is Craterhoof Behemoth, the Eternal Witness/Primal Command loop, etc. If you are playing a non-green win-condition; however, you need a way to ensure you get your non-green mana without having to hold up mana (as often times you will "string" into a win in a turn).
The way to do this is via the land enchantments and Genesis Wave...once you have infinite mana/draw, assuming you've already played your land for turn, you can actually draw into a Genesis Wave and cast it for say X=20 (whatever number you want). You will then be able to utilize every land that hits the board....but you can't be guaranteed that these lands will tap for black. You will, however, it a land enchantment (or draw into one). You can then continue to "bounce" them and tap the lands for black (or whatever color you need). This will allow you to "bounce" Shaman of the Pack as much as you need.
I know this is a very complex means of getting non-green mana; but the truth is that this wasn't really the use of the enchantments in the first place (I utilized them in mono-green versions in the past)....it just happens to be a happy coincidence that arose when Shaman of the Pack was printed :). It's just really nice to know you can tap out to get the combo without a concern for fixing.
I hope this helps explain the use of these cards. There is every possibility that some builds (especially those wanting to be the absolute fastest they can be) would want to replace them with more elves; but I honestly do feel that you can get a little too linear with Elves (and leave yourself open to removal/boardwipes). This is part of what can make CoCo elves sometimes tougher to play profitably (as there are really no great ways to combat board wipes yet that don't slow us down substantially.).
The Use of Genesis Wave
Genesis Wave is really the only true "addition" I've made to Combo Elves as an archetype. Nytkhos, Shrine to Nyx was pretty much a given. I actually initially built my combo elves deck much more similarly to a Green Devotion deck in the past. I utilized Garruk Wildspeaker, Genesis Wave, Eternal Witness, Primal Command and Elves. They just seemed like a great fit (Garruk Wildspeaker could also overrun elves and work as a win-con, it was less succeptable to board wipes, etc.). With the printing of the new elves, however, I wanted to explore a slightly different take while still utilizing those aspects of the deck I felt worked amazingly well (the land enchantments, Wave, etc.). Dwynen's Elite seems like a "must use" (given the fact that it can generate it's own infinite combo with Curio and Heritage Druid); which invariably changes the deck (as it would have to replace another card; which changes the way the deck plays to take best advantage of all of its synergy.
Having said this, Genesis Wave was spectacular; and I'm not sure I would play any Elf Combo deck without it. Genesis Wave essentially acts as an additional win condition. Pretty much any time you cast it for X=5 or more you are most likely going to hit enough to "go off" on the infinite combo.
The argument could easily be made however, such as..."yes, but if you have 8+ mana, why don't you just play Craterhoof Behemoth or Regal Force?
My main response to this is that there are many games where I cast wave for X=3 or X=4 just to get back into the game. The fact that it can be scaled is huge. Also, Wave doesn't require other elves to already be on the board to work. I have had many games where opponents tapped out to wipe my entire board and I simply cast a wave for X=5 on the next turn and won from there. A Craterhoof at that point would simply be a 5/5 haste creature.
Again, however, this fits into the idea of Resiliency over speed. In a build focused on speed, the use of Craterhoof Behemoth makes perfect sense (especially with the use of Summoner's Pact.
This, however, does create some game-play issues. Elite can slow the deck down in many situations where you don't also have a Heritage Druid as it doesn't tap for mana on its own or draw a card (like Visionary, Coiling Oracle, etc.) For this reason, if you are going to play Dwynen's Elite; it also is worth it to play cards that have very strong synergy with the card. These include:
a. Beck - draws two cards instead of one.
b. Elvish Archdruid - Makes Elite basically pay for itself.
c. Ezuri, Renegade Leader - as it can overrun both
d. Craterhoof Behemoth - obviously the most elves the better for it's use.
e. Khanli Hydra - I must confess, I've built a few decks with this card (as it is nuts when heritage druid allows each elf to count as 2-mana).
Dwynen's Elite is a great addition to elves; it just requires some building around.
Shaman of the Pack also jumped out as a potential same-turn win condition (as it could be bounced and it's cheap cost made it efficiently powerful). It's ability, however, does lend itself more to Curio builds and "Aggro" builds (as it's ability can be useful in a non-combo set up as well in multiples). It seems to fit better in a build that can utilize both functions. Craterhoof Behemoth is probably a better "pure" win-condition in a speed-based deck.
Funnily enough Dwynen's Elite and Shaman of the Pack work well together. Because Elite's combo creates infinite tokens and Shaman's life loss is based on the number of elves you control; the feel as though the should be played together The real trick is deciding what to replace, and exactly what elves you should and should not use.
The Explosiveness of Combo Elves (The Combo/Aggro Dilemma)
This is currently where I am questioning the direction to go the most. Combo Elves can be amazingly explosive. In the past, that was one of it's largest draws. The banning of Glimpse of Nature did take away from the ability for the deck to be consistently explosive. You still get the "god hands" where you win on turn 3' but glimpse used to provide a one-mana way to "fill the gaps" and draw into strings of creatures.
When thinking about speed, you have to determine if combo elves can be any faster than either CoCo Elves and/or Aggro Elves (which could be a thing). Our job should be to find out where Combo Elves is superior to the other versions of elves (if it is) and decide if we can exploit that to make a competitive deck. In my opinion, Combo Elves in particular can do two different things that CoCo Elves (and aggro elves don't do as well:
1. Combo Elves CAN "go off" extremely quickly. There is the obvious "god hands" where you go off both early and quickly; but also later in a game you can literally start a turn with three lands (or two lands and a dork, etc.) and end up with an infinite combo. As you said, it can literally just "win out of nowhere".
2. Combo Elves can bury an opponent in a sea of card advantage. Because we generate so much mana and have so many potential means to draw cards; we can literally out value pretty much any opponent we play (despite our cards individually being slightly less powerful).
The thing I am struggling with most is the razor edge the deck has to sit on between being "too linear" and being "too diluted". Cards like Shaman of the Pack and Kessig Wolf Run honestly allow Combo elves to win in games where you don't combo off (as do cards like Elvish Archdruid) while at the same time being potential win conditions AFTER you've hit the infinite combos. Cards like Utopia Sprawl and Abundant Growth also have amazing synergies and help protect you from things like baord wipes....
Cards like Summoners Pact and Createrhoof Behemoth, however, make for lighting-fast potential. Replacing the land enchantments with elves also makes for a potentially faster lethal attack with a Hoof and/or Ezuri.
So, where do we draw the line? Do we play the most linear version possible to be as consistently fast as we possibly can? Do we take advantage of the amazing synergy, card advantage, and ramping potential of elves? The essential question is the choice of Resiliency vs. Speed
Resiliency - to be resilient, we would want to play cards like the land enchantments, Genesis Wave, etc.
I don't know that one is "strictly" better than the other. I have always gone the "card/resource advantage" route because I believe Modern is about out valuing the opponent and having more incremental advantage than the opponent; but I TOTALLY understand the argument that if you are going to play a combo deck, you may as well play the fastest, most "broken" form of that combo.
I honestly don't know all of the answers. I wanted to keep this forum open to the numerous ideas to see which ones ended up the most successful in play/testing. My goal has been to find the best cards/interactions from both the "card advantage" and the "speed" lines of play to make the best possible deck that doesn't muddle either.
The Use of Beck
Dstathis has recently posted about the power of Beck, especially with the printing of Dwynen's Elite. Beck is somewhat of a "fixed" Glimpse of Nature. This "fix", however, makes the card much more difficult to play. The extra cost can literally kill the turn. 2-CMC is a BIG deal vs. 1-CMC (especially that color being non-green) when you are trying to go off on turn 3. That 1 extra mana can be the mana you would need to continue stringing elves...I later turns, it is not nearly as big of a deal (and the spell begins to much more closely resemble Glimpse of Nature). The only problem is that playing Beck means you are tyring to play a deck that much more closely resembles past Elf Combo decks; which were invariably built on their speed.
I haven't played Beck to have enough to claim to be an expert with the card; so i would love to hear more from those who have.
Summary
You are right that the deck and archetype are currently "in the air" both in terms of the exact right build as well as utilizing the new cards. I haven't tested enough to be certain of anything just yet; but I'm going to keep testing and let you know what I find. I hope everyone else does the same until we've solidified a few extremely viable/competitive decks.
Since the last few questions/discussions; I am working now on formatting the Primer in a way that breaks down the deck into the 5 choices after the historical analysis and breaks the deck choices down so that it is very organized. It essentially will explain each of the 5 main choices and provide examples of each with their pros and cons.
Interactions of Note
In testing more, I've found a few more interesting interactions/combos of merit. Here are some
** I will continue to write out interesting/useful interactions throughout the evening. I will also note when the primer has been updated into a more organized fashion
So yesterday I did some testing with a friend. I played the Beck/Curio deck that I posted before. He didn't play the most interactive decks (though there were thoughtseizes and bolts) so I still don't know about the resiliency but I can definitely say that it was incredibly fast. It actually felt significantly faster than Company Elves. I comboed off on turn 3 a few times and even got one turn 2 kill (Beck doesn't work turn 2 but Curio still does). I am very hopeful about this build and when I get back to the states I will build it and do some real testing at my LGS.
First off, thank you for a lot of information regarding different aspects of this deck. For example, I was completely oblivious to the fact that you can ‘loop’ the Enchant Lands for card advantage. From first glance, it only looks like a mana fixer with a cantrip that works well with Arbor Elf. It’s these nuances that make these decklists look less clunky. When you can see all the interactions with the deck, you can see how each hand can give you a different path to infinite elves, infinite mana or just a massivekill shot.
Second, you need to copy & paste most of what you just typed to me in the Primer. I mean, most of us get the major interactions (like Cloudstone Curio, Heritage Druid and ‘Other Elf’ = Some Infinite Effect), but the minor interactions are lacking in the primer. Not only that, but the people who are first reading the primer can’t actually see the combo and how it works! So, if you’re not familiar with the combo, you might take a look at Curio + Dwynen + Heritage and think “how does that get me infinite elves?” They might not understand the concept of:
1. Curio’s trigger from DE’s ETB on the stack targeting HD
2. DE ETB trigger (token) goes on the stack > Let DE’s ability resolve > Token ETB
3. Curio’s trigger from the Token on the stack targeting DE
4. In response to the bouncing of both targets, tap all 3 elves to add GGG
5. The triggers resolve: DE & HD go to hand.
You’re left with both creatures in hand, GGG in your pool and 1 tapped 1/1 Elf Warrior Token in play. You can then repeat this process as many times as needed.
So, I really do think there needs to be more filled in with the primer, but what you typed to me looks like it’s perfect for the primer. You should put all of what you typed to me in there!
It seems like not many people are playing with Alarm. It seems like the most common card is Curio. With this being said, it seems like EVERY good interaction with this deck involves that card. There’s not many other ‘combo’ interactions without this card. Yes, you can play for value and play out your 1/1’s and 2/2’s, but it’s not the same as with a CoCo Elves build. It seems like you’re really reliant on getting to that artifact before you can do much. Is there a better way to make sure you land this card, other than running 4 copies and, to a small extent, Genesis Wave?
Going along with this, I had a major thought with this deck and it’s SB. Has anyone tested with Avoid Fate? If I was playing against this deck, and I see how crazy Heritage Druid and Cloudstone Curio is, my #1 objective is to make sure neither card stays around. I’ll side in spot kill or art/enchant hate. With our deck, we’re not SUPER concerned with what you’re doing. Against a fair deck, you’re basically dancing around kill spells while setting yourself up for a combo win. You don’t care if they’re bolting your face, you care about them bolting your Heritage Druid. You don’t care so much about them landing a Siege Rhino, but you do care about them hitting a Destructive Revelry on your Curio. Now, I know that the biggest issue is with Abrupt Decay. Can’t be countered, kills Curio and Druid, but for the most part, all other spot kill is an instant that CAN be countered. For G, to counter a spot kill, might be worth the look. Especially when the lynchpin of the deck is these two cards!
a. The most important is the "looping" of Abundant Growths. Because of the way Cloudstone Curio works, once you've hit two such enchantments, you can then "loop" them to draw cards:
if you have 1x Abundant Growth and 1x Utopia Sprawl each card draw will cost you [m]G[/m] for every Forest you have (as you can keep enchanting Forests and taping them for GG) and GG for every mana beyond this.
if you have 2x Abundant Growth you can draw a card a the cost of G per card.
Also, once you have an infinite mana combo set up; simply having an Abundant Growth and another enchantment allows you to draw out your whole deck. It's just another nice way to draw out your entire deck outside of either Elvish Visionary and/or Genesis Wave. You want to have as many ways to do so as possible (as hitting infinite mana is great and is something the deck can do quite often...so you want to have many ways to utilize this mana as possible). Most infinite elf decks rely on getting Elvish Visionary on top of infinite mana. This allows you to do so with cards you are using anyways for other reasons.
I can't tell you how many games I've one just "valuing out" the opponent by drawing 5+ cards in a single turn until I hit my Heritage Druid and "went off"
b. They keep you from being as devastated by board wipes. You are absolutely right that the downside is that every Utopia Sprawl could be a Llanowar Elves...but when the opponent plays Pyroclasm you'll be glad it's a Utopia Sprawl
c. They help fix mana. While this seems somewhat unimportant outside of the traditional benefits of fixing (especially in 2-color versions) since we really are just lightly splashing any non-green colors; there is actually one area where it can matter very much IF you are playing Shaman of the Pack, Kessig Wolf Run, or another non-green win-condition. This gets a little complex, and I ALWAYS get very verbose/wordy; but here goes!
When you have infinite mana via one of your ocmbos, you have only infinite GREEN mana. This doesn't matter if your final win-condition is Craterhoof Behemoth, the Eternal Witness/Primal Command loop, etc. If you are playing a non-green win-condition; however, you need a way to ensure you get your non-green mana without having to hold up mana (as often times you will "string" into a win in a turn).
The way to do this is via the land enchantments and Genesis Wave...once you have infinite mana/draw, assuming you've already played your land for turn, you can actually draw into a Genesis Wave and cast it for say X=20 (whatever number you want). You will then be able to utilize every land that hits the board....but you can't be guaranteed that these lands will tap for black. You will, however, it a land enchantment (or draw into one). You can then continue to "bounce" them and tap the lands for black (or whatever color you need). This will allow you to "bounce" Shaman of the Pack as much as you need.
I know this is a very complex means of getting non-green mana; but the truth is that this wasn't really the use of the enchantments in the first place (I utilized them in mono-green versions in the past)....it just happens to be a happy coincidence that arose when Shaman of the Pack was printed :). It's just really nice to know you can tap out to get the combo without a concern for fixing.
I hope this helps explain the use of these cards. There is every possibility that some builds (especially those wanting to be the absolute fastest they can be) would want to replace them with more elves; but I honestly do feel that you can get a little too linear with Elves (and leave yourself open to removal/boardwipes). This is part of what can make CoCo elves sometimes tougher to play profitably (as there are really no great ways to combat board wipes yet that don't slow us down substantially.).
I completely overlooked this interaction. Thanks for clearing it up.
Genesis Wave is really the only true "addition" I've made to Combo Elves as an archetype. Nytkhos, Shrine to Nyx was pretty much a given. I actually initially built my combo elves deck much more similarly to a Green Devotion deck in the past. I utilized Garruk Wildspeaker, Genesis Wave, Eternal Witness, Primal Command and Elves. They just seemed like a great fit (Garruk Wildspeaker could also overrun elves and work as a win-con, it was less succeptable to board wipes, etc.). With the printing of the new elves, however, I wanted to explore a slightly different take while still utilizing those aspects of the deck I felt worked amazingly well (the land enchantments, Wave, etc.). Dwynen's Elite seems like a "must use" (given the fact that it can generate it's own infinite combo with Curio and Heritage Druid); which invariably changes the deck (as it would have to replace another card; which changes the way the deck plays to take best advantage of all of its synergy.
Having said this, Genesis Wave was spectacular; and I'm not sure I would play any Elf Combo deck without it. Genesis Wave essentially acts as an additional win condition. Pretty much any time you cast it for X=5 or more you are most likely going to hit enough to "go off" on the infinite combo.
The argument could easily be made however, such as..."yes, but if you have 8+ mana, why don't you just play Craterhoof Behemoth or Regal Force?
My main response to this is that there are many games where I cast wave for X=3 or X=4 just to get back into the game. The fact that it can be scaled is huge. Also, Wave doesn't require other elves to already be on the board to work. I have had many games where opponents tapped out to wipe my entire board and I simply cast a wave for X=5 on the next turn and won from there. A Craterhoof at that point would simply be a 5/5 haste creature.
Again, however, this fits into the idea of Resiliency over speed. In a build focused on speed, the use of Craterhoof Behemoth makes perfect sense (especially with the use of Summoner's Pact.
I was looking at Gen Wave as an effect where you get your infinite mana play it and win. While it is def that in some cases, I didn’t realize how it can be utilized as an enabler to set up your combo. Or as a post wipe effect to put you back in the game. As a finisher alone, it did seem too slow. I didn’t realize that it could be something as simple as playing a Heritage Druid, a Dwynen’s Elite with an untapped Arbor Elf and Forest with a Utopia Sprawl on it can get your combo going. (tapping the forest for GG, untapping it with Elf, tap again for GG, and using the 3 elves for another GGG, and hitting the Genesis Wave for 4, might land you a Curio, forest, and two more elves (Elite to make it 3), and go off). .
This is currently where I am questioning the direction to go the most. Combo Elves can be amazingly explosive. In the past, that was one of it's largest draws. The banning of Glimpse of Nature did take away from the ability for the deck to be consistently explosive. You still get the "god hands" where you win on turn 3' but glimpse used to provide a one-mana way to "fill the gaps" and draw into strings of creatures.
When thinking about speed, you have to determine if combo elves can be any faster than either CoCo Elves and/or Aggro Elves (which could be a thing). Our job should be to find out where Combo Elves is superior to the other versions of elves (if it is) and decide if we can exploit that to make a competitive deck. In my opinion, Combo Elves in particular can do two different things that CoCo Elves (and aggro elves don't do as well:
1. Combo Elves CAN "go off" extremely quickly. There is the obvious "god hands" where you go off both early and quickly; but also later in a game you can literally start a turn with three lands (or two lands and a dork, etc.) and end up with an infinite combo. As you said, it can literally just "win out of nowhere".
2. Combo Elves can bury an opponent in a sea of card advantage. Because we generate so much mana and have so many potential means to draw cards; we can literally out value pretty much any opponent we play (despite our cards individually being slightly less powerful).
The thing I am struggling with most is the razor edge the deck has to sit on between being "too linear" and being "too diluted". Cards like Shaman of the Pack and Kessig Wolf Run honestly allow Combo elves to win in games where you don't combo off (as do cards like Elvish Archdruid) while at the same time being potential win conditions AFTER you've hit the infinite combos. Cards like Utopia Sprawl and Abundant Growth also have amazing synergies and help protect you from things like baord wipes....
Cards like Summoners Pact and Createrhoof Behemoth, however, make for lighting-fast potential. Replacing the land enchantments with elves also makes for a potentially faster lethal attack with a Hoof and/or Ezuri.
So, where do we draw the line? Do we play the most linear version possible to be as consistently fast as we possibly can? Do we take advantage of the amazing synergy, card advantage, and ramping potential of elves? The essential question is the choice of Resiliency vs. Speed
Resiliency - to be resilient, we would want to play cards like the land enchantments, Genesis Wave, etc.
I feel that this is the most important part of your post and the most I’ve been struggling with. I’m so used to the explosiveness of the original Combo Elves list. It used to win on turn 3-4 consistently. I think this is what made the deck competitive. I worry that the slower the deck ‘goes off,’ the weaker it is vs other decks in the format right now. With Affinity being able to literally win turn 4 with strait aggro, how can we compete without any control aspect to the deck if we’re not trying to ‘go off’ around the same time.
I think speed is more important that resiliency. Yes, you don’t wanna fold to a card like Chalice of the Void, but you don’t want to lose that speed. I feel that’s what makes combo elves competitive. I have been testing, and I’ve had hands where I can play a turn 2 Curio, and have infinite elves turn 3. Win turn 4. The problem is that I’ve had hands where I’m playing 1/1 elves without a detonation button. If we’re going to be seen in the format, I feel like that is our biggest weakness.
Has anyone thought of a transitional SB? Our list is so similar to CoCo elves, why don’t we transition from one to the other for g2? People aren’t expecting combo elves, and I feel game one is similar to dredge. You just win. Game 2, you’re opponent sides in tools to stop the key cards. Why not do something like this for G2:
You’d still have 3 more spots in the SB for things like Avoid Fate, or Beast Within, or Choke. Genesis Wave is like Chord of Calling, but since you’re not packing in the SB silver bullets like CoCo Elves do, you’re not really tutoring for 1 card, but trying to overload the board with mass elves. Just a thought to discuss.
As for Tasigur, it’d seem good, but since there’s not a lot that hit the GY (other than getting sweeped), you’re paying 5B to play a card that other decks play for B. It’d be good if we had some GY interaction.
PS – What does Temur Sabertooth do for the deck? Yes it bounces, but for 2GG and a 1G to activate, how are you abusing this rather than just using Curio? Or is a slower 5th copy of Curio?
-Yawg
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From void evolved Phyrexia. Great Yawgmoth, Father of Machines, saw its perfection. Thus The Grand Evolution began. — Phyrexian Scriptures
I am updating the Primer as we speak to add the information we've discussed and to just make it generally more organized. I'll let you know the second it is up!
Avoid Fate is actually a really brilliant idea. i like it a lot (especially now with Kolaghan's Commands running around). Seems like a cheap and efficient answer to many of the removal we hate to see...and it's GREEN!
I used to run Avoid Fate in my first build of Combo Elves. It definitely surprises opponents when you play it as they aren't expecting a green counter spell. But many times it would just sit in my hand and I've now switched to Vines of Vastwood for that role. It doesn't protect my Curio, but does stop Abrupt Decay, can act as a counter against Splinter Twin or infect, and helps with plan B: beatdown.
What Avoid Fate has going for it over those other two choices is it outright counters a card. So Kolaghan's Command doesn't get either effect, or Cryptic Command's Counter/Bounce would be completely countered.
For Temur Sabertooth you'll notice it go in and out of CurdBros list. It can act like a slower Curio, but more than that it provides instant speed protection for important pieces. You can even use it for some free Chump Blocks vs. Goyf or Tasigur.
It is also part of an infinite combo in the Weird Harvest build and the sole reason I don't consider Weird Harvest a risk. It is now serious contender as an option with Genesis Wave for that spot in the deck.
It is a large ask to put together all seven creatures in a natural draw, but this combo has the benefit that all your pieces can be on the battlefield, so you aren't in that awkward situation where you have the Curio combo on the board, but no creature to start off the process.
Battlefield: Heritage Druid, 3xNettle Sentinel, one-drop, Elvish Visionary, Temur Sabertooth
Stack: Empty
Hand: Empty
Mana Pool: 0
Start by tapping all 6 elves for 6 mana
Battlefield: THeritage Druid, T3xNettle Sentinel, Tone-drop, TElvish Visionary, Temur Sabertooth
Stack: Empty
Hand: Empty
Mana Pool: GGGGGG
Next activate Sabertooth's ability and bounce the one-drop
Battlefield: THeritage Druid, T3xNettle Sentinel, TElvish Visionary, Temur Sabertooth
Stack: Empty
Hand: one-drop
Mana Pool: GGGG
Then cast the one drop. This will trigger the Nettle Sentinels
Battlefield: THeritage Druid, T3xNettle Sentinel, TElvish Visionary, Temur Sabertooth
Stack: one-drop, Nettle Sentinels
Hand: Empty
Mana Pool: GGG
The Sentinels untap and the one-drop enters
Battlefield: THeritage Druid, 3xNettle Sentinel, one-drop, TElvish Visionary, Temur Sabertooth
Stack: Empty
Hand: Empty
Mana Pool: GGG
Tap the Sentinels for 3 mana
Battlefield: THeritage Druid, T3xNettle Sentinel, one-drop, TElvish Visionary, Temur Sabertooth
Stack: Empty
Hand: Empty
Mana Pool: GGGGGG
Activate the Sabertooth and bounce the Heritage Druid
Battlefield: T3xNettle Sentinel, one-drop, TElvish Visionary, Temur Sabertooth
Stack: Empty
Hand: Heritage Druid
Mana Pool: GGGG
Cast the Druid
Battlefield: T3xNettle Sentinel, one-drop, TElvish Visionary, Temur Sabertooth
Stack: Heritage Druid, Nettle Sentinels
Hand: Empty
Mana Pool: GGG
The Sentinels untap and the Druid enters the battlefield
Battlefield: Heritage Druid, 3xNettle Sentinel, one-drop, TElvish Visionary, Temur Sabertooth
Stack: Empty
Hand: Empty
Mana Pool: GGG
Tap the Sentinels for 3 mana
Battlefield: Heritage Druid, T3xNettle Sentinel, one-drop, TElvish Visionary, Temur Sabertooth
Stack: Empty
Hand: Empty
Mana Pool: GGGGGG
Activate the Sabertooth and bounce the Visionary
Battlefield: Heritage Druid, T3xNettle Sentinel, one-drop, Temur Sabertooth
Stack: Empty
Hand: Elvish Visionary
Mana Pool: GGGG
Cast the Visionary
Battlefield: Heritage Druid, T3xNettle Sentinel, one-drop, Temur Sabertooth
Stack: Elvish Visionary, Nettle Sentinels
Hand: Empty
Mana Pool: GG
The Nettle Sentinels untap and the Visionary enters. Visionary's ETB ability triggers
Battlefield: Heritage Druid, 3xNettle Sentinel, one-drop, Elvish Visionary, Temur Sabertooth
Stack: Elvish Visionary
Hand: Empty
Mana Pool: GG
Draw the card and see that you are in the same state as the first quote, but with one extra card and 2 extra mana
Battlefield: Heritage Druid, 3xNettle Sentinel, one-drop, Elvish Visionary, Temur Sabertooth
Stack: Empty
Hand: One extra card
Mana Pool: GG
Without Temur Sabertooth I don't have access to a 100% creature infinite Combo. And the mana required to assemble the combo is surprisingly low. Usually going off at less than 8 mana, or better than craterhoof.
Yawg, if you are looking for a more consistent combo, you should try out the list I posted. The builds on the primer while more resilient have the issue that to go infinite you absolutely need a Heritage Druid and a Cloudstone Curio. The fact that there are only four of each means that there are simply games where you won't get them both. This can be okay since the deck gains so much value it can still win but I think the ability to be fast and more importantly consistent is important. The list I posted runs 4 Beck // Call and 4 Summoner's Pact. This allows the deck to be much faster and more consistent because it only needs one of Curio or Beck. Similarly it only needs one of Heritage Druid or Pact (to get the druid for free).
New primer will be up shortly. Putting all the spoiler tags in it now.
After that, I'll post my testing results of a few different builds.
EDIT
The Primer is being "uploaded' now (just copy pasting it and fixing any formatting issues)...I've been testing with a "Genesis Verion that utilizes both Genesis Wave and Genesis Hydra that seems to build the consistency on top of resiliency (as really if you want pure speed, you have to go the dstathis has above). I am providing all of the options in the primer so people can choose the one they want; so PLEASE also let us know how the decks test/perform so I can update each deck type. The more information the merrier!
I'll post here in about 30 minutes - 45 minutes when the new Primer is up.
I apologize! I forgot to update here while I made updates to the Primer. As of right now, the majority of the Preliminary Primer is up (finishing up the "Win Conditions" and "Support Cards and Tutors" sections...but the combo section and deck lists are up in a more organized fashion). I will add the Abundant Growth/Utopia Sprawl discussion in the Support Cards section as well.
Irmo, I will be pasting the Temur Sabertooth / Weird Harvest discussion you had PM'd me in the past under your decklist as well. I figured the best way to get into the extreme details of each decklist was under the list itself (while providing the actual discussion of the combos seperately). I am also adding a "Temur Sabertooth + 3x Nettle Sentinel + X" combo that looks like the rest to the Primer as well).
My current list also looks slightly different. It is the one labled "Elf Genesis Combo"....the only real differences are (a) my current use of Genesis Hydra instead of Summoner's Pact as my tutor of choice (seems to fit well in my list and does some crazy things with Cloudstone Curio in particular...it's nice to have a tutor you can continue to bounce and reuse ) and (b) the reduction in copies of Elvish Archdruid to 1-2 and the increase in Elvish Mystic to 2-4 (just speeds the deck up a little and makes it easier to hit the infinite mana combo with Heritage Druid and Nettle Sentinel). Here is is:
I believe it was dsathis that made a great point about playing mana dorks over Elvish Archdruid. It definitely (a) ensures solid turn 1's and (b) speeds the deck up a bit. I'm still deciding on the perfect number of Archdruids (it's either going to be 1 or 2); as it still does some amazingly broken things.
The only other real change was adding Genesis Hydra to the deck. I wanted a tutor in the deck (as it does aid in consistently hitting the combos); but I felt in my particular version G.Hydra fit better than Summoner's Pact. I'm fairly certain that when digging for Cloudstone Curio, Genesis Hydra will actually find it, put it on the battlefield, AND then trigger it (so you can bounce it if you'd like to cadt again!). I have only tested it in paper; so I'll get on MTGO and make sure I'm right about the way the abilities/triggers work; but it's been very useful in testing. At absolute worst its a mana sink that gives me a large creature that can be given trample via Wolf Run; and the way it is worded means you get the permanent you're searching for even if they counter the Hydra!
I will continue to update you as more is added to the Primer; however I also am more than happy to add any information you (our community members) want to see as well. Please feel free to PM me or just write on here what you'd like to see, if you feel something is missing, if something needs more explaining, etc. Thanks so much for your help guys and gals!
@CurdBroa - Cloudstone bounces "another perm that shares a type." It can't bounce itself. Even when you hit a creature, you're not bouncing. The search and enter the battlefield all happens, then hydra hits play. So you'd need to play another creature AFTER you cast Hydra.
Also, in the primer, under the combo with the Dwynen's Elite, Heritage and Curio, you said that "if you have a haste enabler, you can attack with them." With the combo, you'd get infinite TAPPED elves. The NEXT turn you win.
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From void evolved Phyrexia. Great Yawgmoth, Father of Machines, saw its perfection. Thus The Grand Evolution began. — Phyrexian Scriptures
@CurdBroa - Cloudstone bounces "another perm that shares a type." It can't bounce itself. Even when you hit a creature, you're not bouncing. The search and enter the battlefield all happens, then hydra hits play. So you'd need to play another creature AFTER you cast Hydra.
Also, in the primer, under the combo with the Dwynen's Elite, Heritage and Curio, you said that "if you have a haste enabler, you can attack with them." With the combo, you'd get infinite TAPPED elves. The NEXT turn you win.
Thanks for the updates/corrections! I completely blanked on the fact that they were tapped....trust me, it was a LONG night...at about 5:00 AM it all became one big blurr (as I had spent a couple hours just figuring out where the one missing bracket was that was screwing up the whole thing!) This is actually quite important as it shows that Shaman of the Pack can be a little more important if you plan on playing Dwynen's Elite (although Craterhoof is great too). I just has always cast Shaman for the same turn win (or just waited a turn)...I will make sure to fix this in the Primer.
I wasn't sure on the Genesis Hydra either (I actually went as far as to say, "I'm not certain this works"; but I'll look a bit more into Genesis Hydra (and play it on MTGO to get a perfect feel for the triggers) to make sure I've got the triggers down perfectly before I detail the interaction in the Primer. This actually a hugely helpful discussion (you are such a great contributer)...so given the discussion of Genesis Hydra thus far:
1. The Search and ETB of the creature searched for and revealed would occur prior to the resolution of the Hydra (similar to the reason it sstill occurs when the Hydra is countered).
2. However, unlike Genesis Wave, the "dug for"/"revealed" creature would ETB before the Hydra (rather than at the same time like Wave) and thus,
3. The Genesis Hydra can "bounce" the other creature.
1. Since the Curio enters the battlefield first (before the Hydra)
2. The Hydra will trigger Cloudstone Curio upon resolution and allow you to bounce another creature already on the board (assuming one is on board).
Let me know where these are incorrect / correct per your understanding (and I of course will discuss it with my Judge buddies). It's something I want to be sure I have written out correctly (as in play it seems extremely strong thus far). I've only tested about 40 games with Genesis Hydraw thus far; and while I personally love it; it's important that it does exactly what I expect/require it to do to make things work! Thanks in advance for your help and thoughts.
I'll make the appropriate changes to the Primer (also Irmo's Temur Sabertooth + Weird Harvest combo data/dicussion is being added) as well as the detailed discussion of win-cons and support cards. I was also thinking of adding a little more discussion of the Historical Elf Combo decks (so show people more of how they worked so they could get a good undersatnding); but I was concerned that it may force people into thinking that they had to "copy" the deck as closlely as possible (when today's Modern meta is different and there are many new and different tools available). Let me know what you all think! I want this to be a "Community Primer" and not just me trying to push my deck via the primer regardless of how good I think it may be (as I can assure you I'm biased ) So please do add whatever you would like to see and I will try my best to get it added.
P.S. Out of curiosity; Yawg, do you have a Combo Elves list you're trying out? You seem to know quite a bit and have some super interesting thoughts/ideas. I'd love to hear more about your actual testing/playing with an Elf Combo deck! We're all in the "testing" phase; so no worries if an idea doesn't work out in the end.
Thanks. I’m just trying to be part of an active community that doesn’t just squabble over 1 card in an already established deck. I love modern and this is my ‘combo’ deck (I run WB Martyr Proc for my control deck, and Merfolk for my aggro / tempo teck). I wanted a solid combo deck to play in Modern, and I tried out Amulet Bloom. It was good, but already established with one decklist and little innovation. When you won, you felt like a dirty cheater, and when you lost, you lost bad. And it was a 50/50 chance of bombing out, and it was heavily dependant on your opening hand. Twin is annoying and overdone, and the Griselbrand Instant Reanimator is not up my alley at all. So, I built Collected Elves to try it out.
I loved playing the deck because it reminded me of playing Extended (Yes, I played back when Extended was a thing…), and I thought I had my new ‘combo’ deck. Again, it was a 50/50 shot to winning game 1, and game 2 was worse after SB hate came in. So, that’s why I’m here on Combo Elves Thread.
When I was playing Extended, there was a period where I was playing Elfball. No Curio, just Glimpse of Nature and Grapeshot. I think that’s why I’m having so much trouble wrapping my mind around the more resilient builds we’re discussing. When you say Combo Elves, I think ‘Win by turn 3.’ Obviously that’s a big reason why they banned Glimpse. So, I guess you can say I’m an old hand at Elfball, and the resilient decklists don’t remind me much of my old deck. That doesn’t mean they’re not good. A win is a win in my book. Hell, I played the combo that involved Mirror Entity, Body Double, Reveillark and Venser, Shaper Savant. So, I’m not a stranger for combo decks that hit their combo later, or is just a good control deck with a combo finish. If you don’t remember, here’s how that combo worked, just in case you were wondering:
Have either Reveillark or Body double in play, and the other in the GY.
Play Mirror Entity. Activate its ability 1,000,000 times. Put them all on the stack.
The first ability resolves, turning all your creatures in play into 0/0’s.
The Reveillark trigger is on the stack. All creatures are dead. Body double and another creature should be in your yard. eg, Venser, Shaper Savant Body Double and the other creature ETB, Venser will bounce something, Body double is a copy of Reveillark.
The second trigger off of Mirror Entity resolves, sending them back to the yard. Since Body Double was a copy of Reveillark, the triggers happen again. This will loop 1,000,000 times bouncing all your opponent’s permanents. On the last resolution, you reanimate the Mirror Entity and you’re able to pull off the combo any time you’d like at instant speed (in case your opponent has a way to disrupt the combo, you can repeat the combo once for Venser, ‘countering’ their spell).
Now, this combo worked with other cards too. There was a Riftwing Cloudskate, Aven Riftwatcher and other 2 power dorks that would also combo to get you whatever you wanted. I think Mulldrifter was in there as well. This combo was wrapped in a WU Control shell that had each part function as a control element. When they all came together it was GG.
As for what I’m playing, I’m just as new to this as you all are. I’m testing and seeing what needs to be added or removed; which build is the best to get you a win. Personally, I’m a fan of the speed vs resiliency. I do fee the deck needs to be resilient to win, but I PERSONALLY feel the strength is the speed. I’m a Dredge player from way back, and I feel the best way a combo deck wins is through speed. That’s why Amulet Bloom is doing go well. GG on turn 3 is rough. No amount of SB skill will really help against a turn 2-3 win. Bloom, with a good opener can win turn 1. The problem with Bloom, that we don’t really have, is that you had to have X, Y and Z in your opening hand / 1st draw to combo. Our deck has 3-4 ways to go INFINITE with something, and it’s not wholly dependant on 1 or 2 cards. Technically, Elves can just win through numbers rather than combo if we needed to.
As for what I’m currently testing. I’m starting with dstathis’ list:
It seems to fit my style of combo more than the resilient versions. You might be wondering about my SB choice. Well, my first thought is this: With combo, you can SB 2 ways; change how you play / take out the combo or try to combat SB hate. With my Dredge deck, all you can do is pack the SB with cards that hose other Sb cards and hope your combo still goes off. With this Sb, I’m going in a different route.
If I was playing against this deck, I’d see that the whole deck is based off of the interactions of 3 cards: Nettle Sentinel, Heritage Druid and Cloudstone Curio (4 if you count Beck // Call. So I think I’d side in any Artifact hate, or more spot kill. While the spot kill will hurt no matter what, I’d be gunning for Heritage or Nettle and make sure none of them stick around. Well, in the post SB transformation, I don’t care if you waste your removal on a 1/1. I’ve got lots of them. They will be looking to take out a Curio, rather than a Llanowar Elf. In this case, I’m playing a less ‘silver bullet’ version of Collected Elves, which has nothing to do with combo. So the opponent is going to make play errors assuming I’m still trying to win with the combo. Most SB cards for them will be rendered useless, and/or they will make play errors assuming the combo will happen (eg, saving a Dismember for Heritage Druid rather than take out my Elvish Archdruid).
In summation: I’m working on the speed version, with a transformative SB that will allow me to surprise the opponent game 1 with a fast combo deck, then transform into an aggro Collected Company deck that has no combo at all, and hopefully make the opponent play badly. Remember, Collected Elves is great too, and can win super fast as well, just in a different way.
The only card I’m milling over is Avoid Fate. I can always keep the combo (or revert back to the combo game 3), and I wanted a way to protect key cards while I’m comboing out. The other cards I like is Vines of Vastwood and Simic Charm. Each have their pros and cons –
Avoid Fate
Pros – Protects any one target, Curio included.
Counters the spell. Relevant for cards like Koligan’s Command.
Green counterspell. Who saw that coming?!
Cons –Needs to be an instant or aura. Yes, that hits a lot of things, but there are some sorceries that hurt too.
Vines of Vastwood
Pros – Protects any one target.
Gives it hexproof until EOT, which may be relevant in case a second spell is cast later.
Protects against abilities in addition to spells cast.
Can be used as a pump if needed.
Can be used against opponent’s cards (eg, Twin and Infect)
Cons – Only protects a creature, leaves removal to Curio open.
Simic Charm
Pros – Protects all permanents! Creatures AND artifacts
Gives Hexproof so that you can still target after the Charm resolves.
Has two other options that are useful and allow the card to remain relevant if protection is not needed. (eg, combo fails and you need to aggro them; bouncing a Regal Force or Craterhoof Behemoth if you can't kill them in one shot)
Cons – GU. 2cc and includes blue. Not even usable in the non-Beck decks. Part of the reason I’m thinking of dropping the 1 Temple Garden for another Breeding Pool or two.
I personally feel Simic Charm is the best option, but the 2cc w/ U is rough. Right now I’ll be testing each one to see which is more useful.
Anywho, that’s my rant for tonight. Unfortunately, I play Modern at my LGS only once or twice a month (they only play that much), but I do test on MWS. I’ll let you know what I find, and how good the deck works.
Remember, I’m just testing this all out like the rest of you. If you have suggestions, comments or concerns, I’d love to hear them. Even if this deck never reaches Tier 2, who cares. At your LGS, this deck will wreck people if built and tested correctly.
-Yawg
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From void evolved Phyrexia. Great Yawgmoth, Father of Machines, saw its perfection. Thus The Grand Evolution began. — Phyrexian Scriptures
That's no problem at all Yawg. You have the perfect attitude for this deck/community. It is so important for all of us to point out that we are all working to make the best Combo Elves decks we can (and those that fit our playstyle and meta's best while also being competitive on the larger "overall meta" front). We are all in the "testing/building" zone...so not every idea is going to work. It is FAR more important, however, to put the idea out there, discuss it, and test it, however; than it is to feel like it may not work and not say anything.
I totally see where you are coming from on the speed front. Elves in Extended were ridiculously fast. It won from "nowhere" extremely fast. It's totally understandable wanting to build a deck that mirrors the Extended Elves deck (especially since we have so many tools at our disposal that are close approximations and some new tools to make such a deck). I do think dstathis's deck is a good "mirror" of Extended Elves (replacing Glimpse of Nature with Beck and Summoner's Pact or Green Sun's Zenith)...while it is missing Natural Order; there are other potential win cons that can be utilized in Modern.
I actually really love the idea of a transformational sideboard. You are exactly right that poeple would bring in some artifact hate, maybe pithing needles, etc. if they have them to try to combat the combo; only to get run over by a super efficient "Aggro Elves" build It would be like playing Game One CoCo Elves in Game 2...ha! I think it's a great idea! The opponent would kill Heritage Druids and Nettle Sentinels left and right (thinking they are doing the right thing) only to get slammed by Archdruids and Ezuri's. I could honestly see this working as the fastest combo decks you will tend to just race; and when the game gets a little more "grindy" you can build some value through Collected Company. I like it!
We should be totally looking at combo elves from every possible angle. I think the Primer should offer a few different takes (assuming they are competitive at at least a Tier 2 level). I have just always been a "Value" player; and have found that (thanks mainly to devotion); the value/resilient version can still be quite fast (turn 3 god hands, but turn 4-5 average hands). Not as consistently fast as your and dstathis builds of course; which makes me so happy to see both options! That way, players/readers can choose what best fits them. I'm feeling much closer to a "set" list (thanks in part to G.Hydra but also due to changing a few Archrduids to Mystics as weird as that sounds).
P.S. Got the trigger order of Genesis Hydra down in all situations where you "reveal" Cloudstone Curio with a creature in play or reveal a creature with Curio already in play. I'll write them out in the primer.
Tiny change to my list in current testing...I now run 2x Elvish Archdruid and 1x Shaman of the Pack in the main. (was 1x Archrduid and 2x Shaman before). This just seems to be smoother; as traditionally I don't care to see Shaman until either (a) I have the infinite combo or (b) I have enough elves and mana to bounce him a couple times...this tends to be turns 3+.
Also Archdruid just seems to help cast larger Waves and Hydra's (and I'm hitting the Infinite mana combo with Dwynen's Elite way more often then I thought I would...it's three cards and a Curio just like the other combo; so I don't know why it was surprising...it just was
The sideboard will probably see a few small changes given the recent addition of Genesis Hydra (although I've really enjoyed the use of Black thus far to slow/stop combo decks and deal with cheap hate artifacts/enchantments with Abrupt Decay...I probably won't post the full list again for a bit (unless something changes). Any time I discuss sideboard changes; I'll probably just either put the list in a spoiler or post only the sidebord (just so I don't take up a ton of more space).
Anwyo, this is the list I will be using all of tomorrow for testing. I plan on testing for about 12 hours straight against the top 10-12 decks in the meta (depending on how far we can get); so I'll let you guys/gals know what I find!
first of all, the list I played with. please note that my maindeck and especially sideboard-desicions had to be made without proper information on our current local meta (could not play for a while) and are also due to limited options available to me on short hand:
was my first try on this deck after limited gold-fishes and few test matches.
24 players, 4 rounds, I went: round one against BloomTitan: 2:0 finishing turn 5 twice, first match generating 40 token elves turn 4 and second match generating 40 elves turn 5 plus one Shaman of the Pack. was a nice and easy start, as he had bad keepers and I just raced him with the combo. could have went off a turn earlier in the second match, but decided for a safer route of play.
round two against Naya Burn: 0:2, comboed 40 elves turn 4 but died to 7 direct damage on his fourth turn match one, second match I mulliganed to 6 for lands and had a bad keep, died turn three to what burd did to my face.
round three against PolymorphEmrakul: 0:2, he went of turn 4 twice getting me by surprize first match, where I could have had unlimited tokes by the time but played around counterspells and stuff, second match he started after I mulled to 5. when he hit the flying spagetti monster, I had my Genesis Wave with incredible 4 mana available. my only out was Heritage Druid to combo off, which I hit fully skilled only to die on his turn, because he killed two of my untapped elves and hit me exactly for the remaining 16 life left.
round four against Grixis Delver: 2:0, not comboing at all, but going the aggressive route and winning turn 5 twice using Ezuri's overrun for the win.
overall I'd say, that the deck performed well, even with such an unexperienced pilot like me, making several suboptimal decisions. I had no color-issues at all, but no-landers twice. I could have killed turn 4 twice going all in despite potential answers in the opponents hand. against other combo decks this list seems a little to slow for my sense and sidebording was a horror, because of problems taking out cards without loosing on synergies and combo-potential. especially non-elf cards really have to have a veeeery big upside.
for control matchups I would like more Chords in the sidebord, also I'd play more Ezuri in my 75.
please keep up the good work here, I do profit a lot from it. so may thanks, quarks
Awesome write up!! This is what I would LOVE to see more of. Nothing is more informative and useful than actual results from actual games! Thank you so much for posting this. Some SUPER interesting stuff here. I learned quite a bit.
Intruder Alarm has numerous synergies in the deck on top of this one...most likely just too slow; but still seems like something we should think about (given the addition of Dwynen's Elite to the Elves deck.
One of the bigger issues is that Intruder Alarm is a true "build around me" card (where you have to begin to warp your deck to accommodate it)...having said that; it would certainly be interesting to see a build going the route of Intruder Alarm decks of past with a new Elite twist
Ok....so I've tested for another 12+ hours and found the following items:
1. The combos are simply awesome.
2. Sylvan Messenger really helps "string" elves; but at 4-CMC it sometimes set in my hand or "ended" turns...I don't think anymore than 2 copies is worth it.
3. I found myself trying to find cards to help draw into the combo, develop card advantage, etc.
4. Lands are HUGE factors to the deck...both Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx and Kessig Wolf Run
5. I would love to run Coiling Oracle given it's ridiculous power; but in a combo deck Dwynen's Elite outclasses it (as it has it's own infinite combo).
6. In Combo decks, Shaman of the Pack appears to be a better win-con than Ezuri, Renegade Leader. You do have a TON of mana, so a 1-of Ezuri is never a bad idea; but the "instant speed" nature of Shaman's kill is better.
I had got myself down to a "core" that I felt was the "Core" for my current decks (since Origins) :
4x Arbor Elf
4x Heritage Druid
4x Nettle Sentinel
1x Elvish Mystic
4x Elvish Visionary
3x Dwynen's Elite
3x Shaman of the Pack
4x Cloudstone Curio
Sorcery/Instants
4x Genesis Wave
Enchantments
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Abundant Growth
Land
4x Forest
2x Stomping Ground
2x Overgrown Tomb
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2x Kessig Wolf Run
So the two win conditions are Shaman of the Pack and Kessig wolf Run. It is super important that elf decks have a mana-sink (actually the more the merrier)...Ezuri, Renegade Leader and Joraga Warcaller are both amazing choices as well. I think two win-cons is enough main board (as you want to move pretty quickly game one).
I was working with cards like Nylea's Presence, Sylvan Messenger, Coiling Oracle and others trying maintain card advantage and find ways to continue to draw into the combo....it was good, but the deck just felt a little "slow". I was DESTROYING fair decks (jund, junk, delver, etc.) but the deck seemed just a 1/2 turn slower than I wanted to be on average. I felt very strongly about the "Core" above; so I was basically left with 3 "slots" to utilize. Initially I thought of Elvish Archdruid...
Elvish Archdruid is better now because of Dwynen's Elite...The mana can be sunk into Genesis Wave, Kessig Wolf Run, and Cloudstone Curio loops. The only problem is that Elvish Archdruid can be a little slow...as a 3-drop that is mostly utilized to tap for mana; you don't really need it in an infinite combo deck like this one...it was a mainstay in elf decks of the past; however those decks didn't have a VERY important piece we have...Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx. This is WILDLY important because:
a. We can create crazy mana through Arbor Elf, Utopia Sprawl, and Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
b. We can fill those slots with potential combo pieces.
c. Our mana is not 100% solely focused on Elves...boardwipes and removal don't effect us nearly as harshly.
We can get away without playing Elvish Archdruid simply because we don't need the mana..
After testing and testing...I thought to myself, "I wish I just had another copy of Heritage Druid, Elvish Visionary, Cloudstone, and Nykthos..." Immediately after thinking this, I remembered a few cards (one recently brought to my attention and one that has been in Elf decks forever):
1. Summoner's Pact
2. Ancient Stirrings
This left me with the following:
4x Arbor Elf
4x Heritage Druid
4x Nettle Sentinel
1x Elvish Mystic
1x Llanowar Elves
4x Elvish Visionary
3x Dwynen's Elite
3x Shaman of the Pack
4x Cloudstone Curio
Sorcery/Instants
4x Genesis Wave
1x Summoner's Pact
1x Ancient Stirrings
Enchantments
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Abundant Growth
4x Forest
2x Stomping Ground
2x Overgrown Tomb
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2x Kessig Wolf Run
** The only reason I'm running a 1-of of each Elvish Mystic and Llanowar Elves and/or Izzet Staticaster is for the random Maelstrom Pulse...it's extremely rare, and it may look a little funny; but if you can avoid it we may as well. **
1. Is it really better to run Shaman of the Pack and Genesis Wave over Craterhoof Behemoth? It seems to me like you have to run 4 waves and 1 to 4 shamans where before you only needed the one craterhoof (pacts gets combo stuff so it doesn't count). Doesn't devoting these extra slots to wincons make the combo less consistent?
2. Has everyone just given up on Beck // Call? Having only the four Cloudstone Curio and no way to tutor for it seems inconsistent. Having the 4 becks would make it much more likely to have one of the two in your opening hand. Not to mention, Dwynen's Elite works amazingly when trying to go off with Beck. It draws two cards just like Elvish Visionary while still paying for itself due to heritage druid.
To answer your questions....yes and no :). In seriousness though, Combo elves has gotten a little complicated with the addition of the new cards. If you can tell from my above comments over the last couple days...I have been wracking my brain and TESTING, TESTING, TESTING to see where the new cards work best as well as where the best build lies with the cards available to us. The Origins Elves truly shook up the combo elves deck to it's core....
Dwynen's Elite is actually the biggest offender It changes how you want to play because:
1. It's amazing with cards that give you "credit" for each elf (such as Elvish Archdruid,
2. It can speed up early turns with Heritage Druid (and can even make a Turn One Heritage Druid viable)
2. It created a new infinite combo:
This 3-card combo creates infinite 1/1 Elf tokens....the best win-con of course from here is Shaman of the Pack (as it is an instant speed win). You could also do some kind of haste enabler, cast a craterhoof (of course you'd have to have a lot of mana...which would work if you figured out a way to untap all of the creatures like Intruder Alarm.; but then you're getting pretty far down the rabbit hole..) or some other means of taking advantage of infinite creatures. etc....In honesty, many games you can just pass and attack the next turn.
Using Beck
You are right that you could literally play a deck VERY close to the original Combo deck with Beck replacing Glimpse of Nature....you can LITERALLY play the exact same 56 cards and just replace Glimpse with Beck...(you'd upgrade Boreal Druid to Elvish Mystic, but that's just because they've released another mana-dork since that time)....Gavin Verhey actually wrote an article on this:
http://archive.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/rc/246
The truth is that this has been around for a pretty good amount of time now, and it hasn't broke through yet. I think there are more reasons than just the fact that Beck is not Glimpse (is a 2-CMC AND requires Blue); but that is by far the largest issue. It drives you crazy because it is so close yet so far away The beauty of Glimpse of Nature was how easy it was to play during "stringing" elves and how early it could be played....Beck just doesn't do it.
The only problem here is that the additional blue mana makes a HUGE difference. On paper it doesn't feel like it should; but it just does. You can't string things as easily, often times it gets stuck in your hand (because where before you could go Gllmpse, Elf, Elf on 3 and literally just string from there), now at best you can go Beck, Elf, done).
I do have to preface all this with the fact that I haven't tested Beck nearly enough. I've focused a lot of my time on Cloudstone Curio.
The Combo / Aggro Dilemma
My current biggest Dilemma is I don't know whether to go "all out Combo" or have a more well rounded deck that is a great aggro deck with multiple "oops I win" combos that can be hit as early as turn four.
There have been a few big changes since Extended Elves was THE deck to beat:
1. Glimpse of Nature was banned.
2. Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx was printed
3. Kessig Wolf Run was printed
4. Craterhoof Behemoth was printed
5. Genesis Wave was printed
6. Dwynen's Elite and Shaman of the Pack were printed (and Sylvan Messenger was made legal in Modern.
7. Substantially better removal is available and played heavily in the meta.
The banning of Glimpse of Nature and the printing of Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx are really the two biggest ones; but all of them have potential impacts on how elves can be played/utilized.
We are left with:
1. The Heritage Druid + Dwynen's Elite + Cloudstone Curio combo
2. The Heritage Druid + Nettle Sentinel + Cloudstone Curio combo (mana dork = infinite mana, Visionary = infinite draw)
These cards alone take up 20 slots (when playing an additional set of 23x the mana dork of your choice):
From here, you are absolutely right that you could go more "all in" combo with something like this:
4x Arbor Elf
3x Elvish Mystic
4x Heritage Druid
4x Nettle Sentinel
4x Elvish Visionary
3x Dwynen's Elite
4x Elvish Archdruid
1x Craterhoof Behemoth
4x Summoner's Pact
Artifact/Enchantment
4x Cloudstone Curio
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Abundant Growth
Land
4x Forest
3x Overgrown Tomb
1x Stomping Ground
3x Verdant Catacombs
2x Kessig Wolf Run
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
I, however, have had a lot of success with Genesis Wave. I've found the card advantage/resource advantage is paramount to Modern (it's a big reason why I run Abundant Growth's as well given that they have a great synergy with both devotion and Cloudstone Curio)...Genesis Wave acts like a "quasi-tutor" for all of the important cards in the deck (they are all permanents)...it basically reads "look at the top X cards of your library; put all combo pieces onto the battlefield...ends up being like a "super Collected Company" in many cases. So this is the deck I've tried out the last 8 or so hours.
4x Arbor Elf
2x Elvish Mystic
4x Heritage Druid
4x Nettle Sentinel
4x Elvish Visionary
3x Dwynen's Elite
3x Elvish Archdruid
3x Shaman of the Pack
4x Genesis Wave
Artifact/Enchantment
4x Cloudstone Curio
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Abundant Growth
Land
4x Forest
3x Overgrown Tomb
1x Stomping Ground
3x Verdant Catacombs
2x Kessig Wolf Run
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
I've literally spent the last 72 hours pretty much testing non-stop; but I still feel like there is ways to go. I do feel quite strongly that there is a very set "core" of cards (really like 50 of the 60 in the main). From there, the only choices are:
1. How many (if any) Summoner's Pact to run?
2. How many (if any) Genesis Wave to run?
3. Which win-cons (and how many) to run? (Best choices being Shaman of the Pack, Craterhoof Behemoth, and Ezuri, Renegade Leader)
Really, these are more likely down to personal/play-style preferences; however I'm going to test both and let you know which works better for me. There of course are still options like Weird Harvest, Temur Sabertooth, and Garruk Wildspeaker as well; I just haven't found room for them yet.
One thing I can attest to is that Kessig Wolf Run is a great additional win-con. In those grindy match ups where they can pick pieces of the combo off; there is nothing better than being able to turn any elf into a huge, trampling threat.
Anwyo, that's what I found in this last 72-hour testing period. I hope this helps answer your questions or at minimum provide a little insight into what I've been up to in trying to make "Combo Elves" work. As always, PLEASE let me know what you think. I'm open to all of the help/criticism I can get. There are a ton of great ideas, players, and brewers on here that have their own takes as well...so they could potentially offer ideas I can't.
I have another 6-hour slot open tomorrow to test and I'll post what I find then too! Once I've set my main board (which I'm fairly certain will be VERY close to the above); I will discuss my sideboard choices as well.
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Arbor Elf
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Elvish Mystic
4 Dwynen's Elite
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1 Regal Force
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Cloudstone Curio
4 Beck // Call
1 Temple Garden
2 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Forest
2 Weird Harvest
4 Essence Warden
4 Evolutionary Leap
2 Choke
1 Kataki, war's Wage
I have found the deck to be pretty solid so far and to actually combo though removal quite often. A few things that I have noticed when playing,
1. Dwynen's Elite is crazy good with beck. If you draw this when trying to go off with Beck it gives you two cards and two mana. Seriously try it out and you will see what I mean.
2. I think the absence of Elvish Archdruid has been really good. When comboing with heritage druid I find that it is very important to maintain the 1 elf/1 mana ratio (which Elite does beautifully).
So far I am quite satisfied with the list and will probably try it when I get the actual cards together. I think Beck has some great potential especially with the printing of elite.
Awesome list!!! Dwynen's Elite does seem unreal with Beck (as it is with Heritage Druid). I will certainly give it a try!
You are right about Elvish Archdruid...it is a slower card that should definitely not be considered a "combo staple at all. The more 1-it's the better!!
Very cool list. I'll try it out tonight too. Keep up the great work!
I’ve been playing CoCo Elves in Modern and I personally feel that it’s time has passed. I feel that too many decks are maindecking sweep, and it’s becoming harder to win with the deck. I feel it’s like ‘Dragonstorm’ decks of old. It was absurdly powerful, until it hit popularity, then people knew how to maindeck / sideboard for it. The reason I’m writing all of this is that I want to switch over to the Combo Elves because I think that it’s more explosive than CoCo Elves.
This deck can just ‘go off’ and gets around Pyroclasm type effects. You go from 0-60 in 2 seconds and with one big turn. By that time, they’re sweeper is useless. My issue is how scattered all of these decks are. I’ve read through the primer, and looked at older decklists, and they’re very inconsistent. The only common thread is the Nettle / Heritage / Visionary / Cloudstone interactions (and some decks don’t run the Curio in lieu of other cards like Intruder Alarm, Beck // Call, and Genesis Wave / Weird Harvest).
I guess what I’m missing out of the newer versions of the deck is card explanations. I get that you need to make B to play a Shaman of the Pack and that’s why all those 1cc Enchant Land Cantrip cards are in there, but without Genesis Wave, it seems like you’re lowering the ability to ‘string together’ your elves (by lowering your elf count). When Glimpse of Nature decks were doing well, there was one big turn. You can start that turn very early because of the 1cc. With the newer lists I’ve seen posted here, it seems like it’s build-up to a Genesis Wave which seems to be a psudo-Glimpse turn. Isn’t that too long to combo? Twin decks can win turn 4 with 2 cards (and counter backup), and Instant Reanimator can win on turn 3. Pyroclasm hits on turn 2, and even with an Archdruid out, you’re still wiped. I understand that Genesis Wave is super good in our deck. Other than itself or Summoner’s Pact, all cards revealed with X will be put into play. My only concern is that the turn you play Wave is too slow.
I might be underestimating these lists, and I might be ignorant to some of the nuances of the deck, but it seems like without a card like Beck // Call, you’re too slow.
Can someone shed more insight into the deck and how a normal turn plays out? I get the idea, I know the combos, and I’ve read the primer. It still feels like a group of lists without cohesion. Thanks in advance.
-Yawg
You are ABSOLUTELY right that we haven't developed a "definitive" list. I'm not personally one for a "single best" list. I think things like meta, playstyle, etc. make huge differences in Modern and even what would be considered a "lesser" build in a vacuum can be made up with in deck knowledge in Modern...having said this, there are absolutely "stock" or "core" ideas that should be in every elf Combo deck. I will try to word the Primer in a more "cohesive" way, at this point, however, I just didn't want to (a) discourage anyone who was building their own version from trying new things and (b) act like I was a "know it all" when it cames to combo elves (as it really is somewhat an underexamined archetype). The third biggest issue actually came with Origins. With the printing of several elves with cool ETB triggers; it changed the ways you could play combo elves. We simply haven't been able to test them enough to determine if (a) any are "good" enough for Modern Combo Elves (although I think at least two are) and (b) exactly how many of each should be played.
There really has never been a definitive answer on the following questions. I believe before you can discuss card choices, you really have to answer the following:
1. Should you play Cloudstone Curio or Intruder Alarm as your "engine" card?
2. IF you choose Cloudstone Curio, so you also play Beck?
3. Do you format the deck in a way that focuses purely on speed, or do you build it based on resiliency?
4. Once you've decided on this, are any of the new Origins elves worth playing?
5. What is the best win-con of choice for your build.
These are three VERY important questions and really any time you are discussing a Combo Elf deck list; you pretty much have to answer these questions before you even begin discussing your card choices.
For me Personally, I currently answer the questions this way:
1. I prefer Cloudstone Curio.
2. I don't currently play Beck with my Cloudstone Curio.
3. I have formatted the majority of my builds toward Resiliency. I feel like CoCo Elves focuses on speed enough, so we should at least start by exploring a different avenue. I've built them more of a great value deck that also simply goes "oops I win" over 50% of the time very quickly and has built in inevitability.
4. I personally believe Shaman of the Pack and Dwynen's Elite are useable in my build for many reasons.
5. My current win-con of choice is Shaman of the Pack (with a secondary win-con of Kessig Wolf Run)
Hopefully this provides a little more clarification on why I made the choices I have during testing. Please understand that the above answers are not necessarily the best choices. They are just the choices I'm currently working with. Given these assumptions, just to answer a few of your questions:
The Use of Land Auras
Cards like Utopia Sprawl and Abundant Growth are actually utilized for a couple reasons:
a. The most important is the "looping" of Abundant Growths. Because of the way Cloudstone Curio works, once you've hit two such enchantments, you can then "loop" them to draw cards:
I can't tell you how many games I've one just "valuing out" the opponent by drawing 5+ cards in a single turn until I hit my Heritage Druid and "went off"
b. They keep you from being as devastated by board wipes. You are absolutely right that the downside is that every Utopia Sprawl could be a Llanowar Elves...but when the opponent plays Pyroclasm you'll be glad it's a Utopia Sprawl
c. They help fix mana. While this seems somewhat unimportant outside of the traditional benefits of fixing (especially in 2-color versions) since we really are just lightly splashing any non-green colors; there is actually one area where it can matter very much IF you are playing Shaman of the Pack, Kessig Wolf Run, or another non-green win-condition. This gets a little complex, and I ALWAYS get very verbose/wordy; but here goes!
I know this is a very complex means of getting non-green mana; but the truth is that this wasn't really the use of the enchantments in the first place (I utilized them in mono-green versions in the past)....it just happens to be a happy coincidence that arose when Shaman of the Pack was printed :). It's just really nice to know you can tap out to get the combo without a concern for fixing.
I hope this helps explain the use of these cards. There is every possibility that some builds (especially those wanting to be the absolute fastest they can be) would want to replace them with more elves; but I honestly do feel that you can get a little too linear with Elves (and leave yourself open to removal/boardwipes). This is part of what can make CoCo elves sometimes tougher to play profitably (as there are really no great ways to combat board wipes yet that don't slow us down substantially.).
The Use of Genesis Wave
Genesis Wave is really the only true "addition" I've made to Combo Elves as an archetype. Nytkhos, Shrine to Nyx was pretty much a given. I actually initially built my combo elves deck much more similarly to a Green Devotion deck in the past. I utilized Garruk Wildspeaker, Genesis Wave, Eternal Witness, Primal Command and Elves. They just seemed like a great fit (Garruk Wildspeaker could also overrun elves and work as a win-con, it was less succeptable to board wipes, etc.). With the printing of the new elves, however, I wanted to explore a slightly different take while still utilizing those aspects of the deck I felt worked amazingly well (the land enchantments, Wave, etc.). Dwynen's Elite seems like a "must use" (given the fact that it can generate it's own infinite combo with Curio and Heritage Druid); which invariably changes the deck (as it would have to replace another card; which changes the way the deck plays to take best advantage of all of its synergy.
Having said this, Genesis Wave was spectacular; and I'm not sure I would play any Elf Combo deck without it. Genesis Wave essentially acts as an additional win condition. Pretty much any time you cast it for X=5 or more you are most likely going to hit enough to "go off" on the infinite combo.
The argument could easily be made however, such as..."yes, but if you have 8+ mana, why don't you just play Craterhoof Behemoth or Regal Force?
My main response to this is that there are many games where I cast wave for X=3 or X=4 just to get back into the game. The fact that it can be scaled is huge. Also, Wave doesn't require other elves to already be on the board to work. I have had many games where opponents tapped out to wipe my entire board and I simply cast a wave for X=5 on the next turn and won from there. A Craterhoof at that point would simply be a 5/5 haste creature.
Again, however, this fits into the idea of Resiliency over speed. In a build focused on speed, the use of Craterhoof Behemoth makes perfect sense (especially with the use of Summoner's Pact.
The Use of Dwynen's Elite and Shaman of the Pack
Dwynen's Elite instantly jumped out as a great tool for Combo Elves as it makes it's own infinite combo (Heritage Druid + Dwynen's Elite + Cloudstone Curio = Infinite 1/1 Elf Warrior Tokens).
This, however, does create some game-play issues. Elite can slow the deck down in many situations where you don't also have a Heritage Druid as it doesn't tap for mana on its own or draw a card (like Visionary, Coiling Oracle, etc.) For this reason, if you are going to play Dwynen's Elite; it also is worth it to play cards that have very strong synergy with the card. These include:
a. Beck - draws two cards instead of one.
b. Elvish Archdruid - Makes Elite basically pay for itself.
c. Ezuri, Renegade Leader - as it can overrun both
d. Craterhoof Behemoth - obviously the most elves the better for it's use.
e. Khanli Hydra - I must confess, I've built a few decks with this card (as it is nuts when heritage druid allows each elf to count as 2-mana).
Dwynen's Elite is a great addition to elves; it just requires some building around.
Shaman of the Pack also jumped out as a potential same-turn win condition (as it could be bounced and it's cheap cost made it efficiently powerful). It's ability, however, does lend itself more to Curio builds and "Aggro" builds (as it's ability can be useful in a non-combo set up as well in multiples). It seems to fit better in a build that can utilize both functions. Craterhoof Behemoth is probably a better "pure" win-condition in a speed-based deck.
Funnily enough Dwynen's Elite and Shaman of the Pack work well together. Because Elite's combo creates infinite tokens and Shaman's life loss is based on the number of elves you control; the feel as though the should be played together The real trick is deciding what to replace, and exactly what elves you should and should not use.
The Explosiveness of Combo Elves (The Combo/Aggro Dilemma)
This is currently where I am questioning the direction to go the most. Combo Elves can be amazingly explosive. In the past, that was one of it's largest draws. The banning of Glimpse of Nature did take away from the ability for the deck to be consistently explosive. You still get the "god hands" where you win on turn 3' but glimpse used to provide a one-mana way to "fill the gaps" and draw into strings of creatures.
When thinking about speed, you have to determine if combo elves can be any faster than either CoCo Elves and/or Aggro Elves (which could be a thing). Our job should be to find out where Combo Elves is superior to the other versions of elves (if it is) and decide if we can exploit that to make a competitive deck. In my opinion, Combo Elves in particular can do two different things that CoCo Elves (and aggro elves don't do as well:
1. Combo Elves CAN "go off" extremely quickly. There is the obvious "god hands" where you go off both early and quickly; but also later in a game you can literally start a turn with three lands (or two lands and a dork, etc.) and end up with an infinite combo. As you said, it can literally just "win out of nowhere".
2. Combo Elves can bury an opponent in a sea of card advantage. Because we generate so much mana and have so many potential means to draw cards; we can literally out value pretty much any opponent we play (despite our cards individually being slightly less powerful).
The thing I am struggling with most is the razor edge the deck has to sit on between being "too linear" and being "too diluted". Cards like Shaman of the Pack and Kessig Wolf Run honestly allow Combo elves to win in games where you don't combo off (as do cards like Elvish Archdruid) while at the same time being potential win conditions AFTER you've hit the infinite combos. Cards like Utopia Sprawl and Abundant Growth also have amazing synergies and help protect you from things like baord wipes....
Cards like Summoners Pact and Createrhoof Behemoth, however, make for lighting-fast potential. Replacing the land enchantments with elves also makes for a potentially faster lethal attack with a Hoof and/or Ezuri.
So, where do we draw the line? Do we play the most linear version possible to be as consistently fast as we possibly can? Do we take advantage of the amazing synergy, card advantage, and ramping potential of elves? The essential question is the choice of Resiliency vs. Speed
Resiliency - to be resilient, we would want to play cards like the land enchantments, Genesis Wave, etc.
Speed - Here we would play 30+ elves, Summoner's Pact, and Craterhoof Behemoth
I don't know that one is "strictly" better than the other. I have always gone the "card/resource advantage" route because I believe Modern is about out valuing the opponent and having more incremental advantage than the opponent; but I TOTALLY understand the argument that if you are going to play a combo deck, you may as well play the fastest, most "broken" form of that combo.
I honestly don't know all of the answers. I wanted to keep this forum open to the numerous ideas to see which ones ended up the most successful in play/testing. My goal has been to find the best cards/interactions from both the "card advantage" and the "speed" lines of play to make the best possible deck that doesn't muddle either.
The Use of Beck
Dstathis has recently posted about the power of Beck, especially with the printing of Dwynen's Elite. Beck is somewhat of a "fixed" Glimpse of Nature. This "fix", however, makes the card much more difficult to play. The extra cost can literally kill the turn. 2-CMC is a BIG deal vs. 1-CMC (especially that color being non-green) when you are trying to go off on turn 3. That 1 extra mana can be the mana you would need to continue stringing elves...I later turns, it is not nearly as big of a deal (and the spell begins to much more closely resemble Glimpse of Nature). The only problem is that playing Beck means you are tyring to play a deck that much more closely resembles past Elf Combo decks; which were invariably built on their speed.
I haven't played Beck to have enough to claim to be an expert with the card; so i would love to hear more from those who have.
Summary
You are right that the deck and archetype are currently "in the air" both in terms of the exact right build as well as utilizing the new cards. I haven't tested enough to be certain of anything just yet; but I'm going to keep testing and let you know what I find. I hope everyone else does the same until we've solidified a few extremely viable/competitive decks.
Interactions of Note
In testing more, I've found a few more interesting interactions/combos of merit. Here are some
1.
Because Dwynen's Elite + Heritage Druid + Cloudstone Curio creates infinite warriors on the same turn, if you have an Elvish Archdruid in play; you also have infinite mana. I used it in the "Pact" version I've been testing to get a VERY large Craterhoof Behemoth on the board.
** I will continue to write out interesting/useful interactions throughout the evening. I will also note when the primer has been updated into a more organized fashion
On a side note Tasigur, the Golden Fang draws your deck when you have infinite green mana so maybe that's a possible win con with a single Wild Cantor and a Shaman of the Pack. (Probably going too deep here)
Second, you need to copy & paste most of what you just typed to me in the Primer. I mean, most of us get the major interactions (like Cloudstone Curio, Heritage Druid and ‘Other Elf’ = Some Infinite Effect), but the minor interactions are lacking in the primer. Not only that, but the people who are first reading the primer can’t actually see the combo and how it works! So, if you’re not familiar with the combo, you might take a look at Curio + Dwynen + Heritage and think “how does that get me infinite elves?” They might not understand the concept of:
Play Heritage Druid.
Play Dwynen’s Elite.
1. Curio’s trigger from DE’s ETB on the stack targeting HD
2. DE ETB trigger (token) goes on the stack > Let DE’s ability resolve > Token ETB
3. Curio’s trigger from the Token on the stack targeting DE
4. In response to the bouncing of both targets, tap all 3 elves to add GGG
5. The triggers resolve: DE & HD go to hand.
You’re left with both creatures in hand, GGG in your pool and 1 tapped 1/1 Elf Warrior Token in play. You can then repeat this process as many times as needed.
It seems like not many people are playing with Alarm. It seems like the most common card is Curio. With this being said, it seems like EVERY good interaction with this deck involves that card. There’s not many other ‘combo’ interactions without this card. Yes, you can play for value and play out your 1/1’s and 2/2’s, but it’s not the same as with a CoCo Elves build. It seems like you’re really reliant on getting to that artifact before you can do much. Is there a better way to make sure you land this card, other than running 4 copies and, to a small extent, Genesis Wave?
Going along with this, I had a major thought with this deck and it’s SB. Has anyone tested with Avoid Fate? If I was playing against this deck, and I see how crazy Heritage Druid and Cloudstone Curio is, my #1 objective is to make sure neither card stays around. I’ll side in spot kill or art/enchant hate. With our deck, we’re not SUPER concerned with what you’re doing. Against a fair deck, you’re basically dancing around kill spells while setting yourself up for a combo win. You don’t care if they’re bolting your face, you care about them bolting your Heritage Druid. You don’t care so much about them landing a Siege Rhino, but you do care about them hitting a Destructive Revelry on your Curio. Now, I know that the biggest issue is with Abrupt Decay. Can’t be countered, kills Curio and Druid, but for the most part, all other spot kill is an instant that CAN be countered. For G, to counter a spot kill, might be worth the look. Especially when the lynchpin of the deck is these two cards! I completely overlooked this interaction. Thanks for clearing it up. I was looking at Gen Wave as an effect where you get your infinite mana play it and win. While it is def that in some cases, I didn’t realize how it can be utilized as an enabler to set up your combo. Or as a post wipe effect to put you back in the game. As a finisher alone, it did seem too slow. I didn’t realize that it could be something as simple as playing a Heritage Druid, a Dwynen’s Elite with an untapped Arbor Elf and Forest with a Utopia Sprawl on it can get your combo going. (tapping the forest for GG, untapping it with Elf, tap again for GG, and using the 3 elves for another GGG, and hitting the Genesis Wave for 4, might land you a Curio, forest, and two more elves (Elite to make it 3), and go off). . I feel that this is the most important part of your post and the most I’ve been struggling with. I’m so used to the explosiveness of the original Combo Elves list. It used to win on turn 3-4 consistently. I think this is what made the deck competitive. I worry that the slower the deck ‘goes off,’ the weaker it is vs other decks in the format right now. With Affinity being able to literally win turn 4 with strait aggro, how can we compete without any control aspect to the deck if we’re not trying to ‘go off’ around the same time.
I think speed is more important that resiliency. Yes, you don’t wanna fold to a card like Chalice of the Void, but you don’t want to lose that speed. I feel that’s what makes combo elves competitive. I have been testing, and I’ve had hands where I can play a turn 2 Curio, and have infinite elves turn 3. Win turn 4. The problem is that I’ve had hands where I’m playing 1/1 elves without a detonation button. If we’re going to be seen in the format, I feel like that is our biggest weakness.
Has anyone thought of a transitional SB? Our list is so similar to CoCo elves, why don’t we transition from one to the other for g2? People aren’t expecting combo elves, and I feel game one is similar to dredge. You just win. Game 2, you’re opponent sides in tools to stop the key cards. Why not do something like this for G2:
Out:
4 Cloudstone Curio
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Abundant Growth
In:
3 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
2 Elvish Mystic / Llanowar Elves / 1cc Mana Elf
4 Collected Company
1 Elvish Archdruid
1 Dwynen’s Elite
1 Spellskite / Fauna Shaman / Reclamation Sage / Scavenging Ooze / Copperhorn Scout / Eternal Witness / Cavern of Souls or another land
You’d still have 3 more spots in the SB for things like Avoid Fate, or Beast Within, or Choke. Genesis Wave is like Chord of Calling, but since you’re not packing in the SB silver bullets like CoCo Elves do, you’re not really tutoring for 1 card, but trying to overload the board with mass elves. Just a thought to discuss.
As for Tasigur, it’d seem good, but since there’s not a lot that hit the GY (other than getting sweeped), you’re paying 5B to play a card that other decks play for B. It’d be good if we had some GY interaction.
PS – What does Temur Sabertooth do for the deck? Yes it bounces, but for 2GG and a 1G to activate, how are you abusing this rather than just using Curio? Or is a slower 5th copy of Curio?
-Yawg
I am updating the Primer as we speak to add the information we've discussed and to just make it generally more organized. I'll let you know the second it is up!
Avoid Fate is actually a really brilliant idea. i like it a lot (especially now with Kolaghan's Commands running around). Seems like a cheap and efficient answer to many of the removal we hate to see...and it's GREEN!
I used to run Avoid Fate in my first build of Combo Elves. It definitely surprises opponents when you play it as they aren't expecting a green counter spell. But many times it would just sit in my hand and I've now switched to Vines of Vastwood for that role. It doesn't protect my Curio, but does stop Abrupt Decay, can act as a counter against Splinter Twin or infect, and helps with plan B: beatdown.
If you are worried about your Curios with Kolaghan's Command running around, there is also Apostle's Blessing. It still stops Abrupt Decay, but won't outright counter the command.
What Avoid Fate has going for it over those other two choices is it outright counters a card. So Kolaghan's Command doesn't get either effect, or Cryptic Command's Counter/Bounce would be completely countered.
For Temur Sabertooth you'll notice it go in and out of CurdBros list. It can act like a slower Curio, but more than that it provides instant speed protection for important pieces. You can even use it for some free Chump Blocks vs. Goyf or Tasigur.
It is also part of an infinite combo in the Weird Harvest build and the sole reason I don't consider Weird Harvest a risk. It is now serious contender as an option with Genesis Wave for that spot in the deck.
This combo requires 7 creatures and 3 of them are Nettle Sentinel: Heritage Druid, 3xNettle Sentinel, one-drop, Elvish Visionary, and Temur Sabertooth.
It is a large ask to put together all seven creatures in a natural draw, but this combo has the benefit that all your pieces can be on the battlefield, so you aren't in that awkward situation where you have the Curio combo on the board, but no creature to start off the process.
Start by tapping all 6 elves for 6 mana
Next activate Sabertooth's ability and bounce the one-drop
Then cast the one drop. This will trigger the Nettle Sentinels
The Sentinels untap and the one-drop enters
Tap the Sentinels for 3 mana
Activate the Sabertooth and bounce the Heritage Druid
Cast the Druid
The Sentinels untap and the Druid enters the battlefield
Tap the Sentinels for 3 mana
Activate the Sabertooth and bounce the Visionary
Cast the Visionary
The Nettle Sentinels untap and the Visionary enters. Visionary's ETB ability triggers
Draw the card and see that you are in the same state as the first quote, but with one extra card and 2 extra mana
Without Temur Sabertooth I don't have access to a 100% creature infinite Combo. And the mana required to assemble the combo is surprisingly low. Usually going off at less than 8 mana, or better than craterhoof.
After that, I'll post my testing results of a few different builds.
EDIT
The Primer is being "uploaded' now (just copy pasting it and fixing any formatting issues)...I've been testing with a "Genesis Verion that utilizes both Genesis Wave and Genesis Hydra that seems to build the consistency on top of resiliency (as really if you want pure speed, you have to go the dstathis has above). I am providing all of the options in the primer so people can choose the one they want; so PLEASE also let us know how the decks test/perform so I can update each deck type. The more information the merrier!
I'll post here in about 30 minutes - 45 minutes when the new Primer is up.
I apologize! I forgot to update here while I made updates to the Primer. As of right now, the majority of the Preliminary Primer is up (finishing up the "Win Conditions" and "Support Cards and Tutors" sections...but the combo section and deck lists are up in a more organized fashion). I will add the Abundant Growth/Utopia Sprawl discussion in the Support Cards section as well.
Irmo, I will be pasting the Temur Sabertooth / Weird Harvest discussion you had PM'd me in the past under your decklist as well. I figured the best way to get into the extreme details of each decklist was under the list itself (while providing the actual discussion of the combos seperately). I am also adding a "Temur Sabertooth + 3x Nettle Sentinel + X" combo that looks like the rest to the Primer as well).
My current list also looks slightly different. It is the one labled "Elf Genesis Combo"....the only real differences are (a) my current use of Genesis Hydra instead of Summoner's Pact as my tutor of choice (seems to fit well in my list and does some crazy things with Cloudstone Curio in particular...it's nice to have a tutor you can continue to bounce and reuse ) and (b) the reduction in copies of Elvish Archdruid to 1-2 and the increase in Elvish Mystic to 2-4 (just speeds the deck up a little and makes it easier to hit the infinite mana combo with Heritage Druid and Nettle Sentinel). Here is is:
ELF GENESIS COMBO
4x Arbor Elf
4x Heritage Druid
4x Nettle Sentinel
3x Elvish Mystic
4x Elvish Visionary
3x Dwynen's Elite
2x Shaman of the Pack
1x Elvish Archdruid
2x Genesis Hydra
Enchantments
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Abundant Growth
4x Cloudstone Curio
Sorcery/Instants
4x Genesis Wave
Land
4x Forest
1x Stomping Ground
3x Overgrown Tomb
2x Wooded Foothills
2x Verdant Catacombs
3x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2x Kessig Wolf Run
4x Thoughtseize
3x Abrupt Decay
4x Leyline of Vitality
1x Reclamation Sage
2x Cavern of Souls
1x Stain the Mind
I believe it was dsathis that made a great point about playing mana dorks over Elvish Archdruid. It definitely (a) ensures solid turn 1's and (b) speeds the deck up a bit. I'm still deciding on the perfect number of Archdruids (it's either going to be 1 or 2); as it still does some amazingly broken things.
The only other real change was adding Genesis Hydra to the deck. I wanted a tutor in the deck (as it does aid in consistently hitting the combos); but I felt in my particular version G.Hydra fit better than Summoner's Pact. I'm fairly certain that when digging for Cloudstone Curio, Genesis Hydra will actually find it, put it on the battlefield, AND then trigger it (so you can bounce it if you'd like to cadt again!). I have only tested it in paper; so I'll get on MTGO and make sure I'm right about the way the abilities/triggers work; but it's been very useful in testing. At absolute worst its a mana sink that gives me a large creature that can be given trample via Wolf Run; and the way it is worded means you get the permanent you're searching for even if they counter the Hydra!
I will continue to update you as more is added to the Primer; however I also am more than happy to add any information you (our community members) want to see as well. Please feel free to PM me or just write on here what you'd like to see, if you feel something is missing, if something needs more explaining, etc. Thanks so much for your help guys and gals!
Also, in the primer, under the combo with the Dwynen's Elite, Heritage and Curio, you said that "if you have a haste enabler, you can attack with them." With the combo, you'd get infinite TAPPED elves. The NEXT turn you win.
Thanks for the updates/corrections! I completely blanked on the fact that they were tapped....trust me, it was a LONG night...at about 5:00 AM it all became one big blurr (as I had spent a couple hours just figuring out where the one missing bracket was that was screwing up the whole thing!) This is actually quite important as it shows that Shaman of the Pack can be a little more important if you plan on playing Dwynen's Elite (although Craterhoof is great too). I just has always cast Shaman for the same turn win (or just waited a turn)...I will make sure to fix this in the Primer.
I wasn't sure on the Genesis Hydra either (I actually went as far as to say, "I'm not certain this works"; but I'll look a bit more into Genesis Hydra (and play it on MTGO to get a perfect feel for the triggers) to make sure I've got the triggers down perfectly before I detail the interaction in the Primer. This actually a hugely helpful discussion (you are such a great contributer)...so given the discussion of Genesis Hydra thus far:
1. The Search and ETB of the creature searched for and revealed would occur prior to the resolution of the Hydra (similar to the reason it sstill occurs when the Hydra is countered).
2. However, unlike Genesis Wave, the "dug for"/"revealed" creature would ETB before the Hydra (rather than at the same time like Wave) and thus,
3. The Genesis Hydra can "bounce" the other creature.
Also, in the situation where Genesis Hydra reveals and puts into the battlefield a Cloudstone Curio:
1. Since the Curio enters the battlefield first (before the Hydra)
2. The Hydra will trigger Cloudstone Curio upon resolution and allow you to bounce another creature already on the board (assuming one is on board).
Let me know where these are incorrect / correct per your understanding (and I of course will discuss it with my Judge buddies). It's something I want to be sure I have written out correctly (as in play it seems extremely strong thus far). I've only tested about 40 games with Genesis Hydraw thus far; and while I personally love it; it's important that it does exactly what I expect/require it to do to make things work! Thanks in advance for your help and thoughts.
I'll make the appropriate changes to the Primer (also Irmo's Temur Sabertooth + Weird Harvest combo data/dicussion is being added) as well as the detailed discussion of win-cons and support cards. I was also thinking of adding a little more discussion of the Historical Elf Combo decks (so show people more of how they worked so they could get a good undersatnding); but I was concerned that it may force people into thinking that they had to "copy" the deck as closlely as possible (when today's Modern meta is different and there are many new and different tools available). Let me know what you all think! I want this to be a "Community Primer" and not just me trying to push my deck via the primer regardless of how good I think it may be (as I can assure you I'm biased ) So please do add whatever you would like to see and I will try my best to get it added.
P.S. Out of curiosity; Yawg, do you have a Combo Elves list you're trying out? You seem to know quite a bit and have some super interesting thoughts/ideas. I'd love to hear more about your actual testing/playing with an Elf Combo deck! We're all in the "testing" phase; so no worries if an idea doesn't work out in the end.
I loved playing the deck because it reminded me of playing Extended (Yes, I played back when Extended was a thing…), and I thought I had my new ‘combo’ deck. Again, it was a 50/50 shot to winning game 1, and game 2 was worse after SB hate came in. So, that’s why I’m here on Combo Elves Thread.
When I was playing Extended, there was a period where I was playing Elfball. No Curio, just Glimpse of Nature and Grapeshot. I think that’s why I’m having so much trouble wrapping my mind around the more resilient builds we’re discussing. When you say Combo Elves, I think ‘Win by turn 3.’ Obviously that’s a big reason why they banned Glimpse. So, I guess you can say I’m an old hand at Elfball, and the resilient decklists don’t remind me much of my old deck. That doesn’t mean they’re not good. A win is a win in my book. Hell, I played the combo that involved Mirror Entity, Body Double, Reveillark and Venser, Shaper Savant. So, I’m not a stranger for combo decks that hit their combo later, or is just a good control deck with a combo finish. If you don’t remember, here’s how that combo worked, just in case you were wondering:
Play Mirror Entity. Activate its ability 1,000,000 times. Put them all on the stack.
The first ability resolves, turning all your creatures in play into 0/0’s.
The Reveillark trigger is on the stack. All creatures are dead.
Body double and another creature should be in your yard. eg, Venser, Shaper Savant
Body Double and the other creature ETB, Venser will bounce something, Body double is a copy of Reveillark.
The second trigger off of Mirror Entity resolves, sending them back to the yard. Since Body Double was a copy of Reveillark, the triggers happen again. This will loop 1,000,000 times bouncing all your opponent’s permanents. On the last resolution, you reanimate the Mirror Entity and you’re able to pull off the combo any time you’d like at instant speed (in case your opponent has a way to disrupt the combo, you can repeat the combo once for Venser, ‘countering’ their spell).
Now, this combo worked with other cards too. There was a Riftwing Cloudskate, Aven Riftwatcher and other 2 power dorks that would also combo to get you whatever you wanted. I think Mulldrifter was in there as well. This combo was wrapped in a WU Control shell that had each part function as a control element. When they all came together it was GG.
As for what I’m playing, I’m just as new to this as you all are. I’m testing and seeing what needs to be added or removed; which build is the best to get you a win. Personally, I’m a fan of the speed vs resiliency. I do fee the deck needs to be resilient to win, but I PERSONALLY feel the strength is the speed. I’m a Dredge player from way back, and I feel the best way a combo deck wins is through speed. That’s why Amulet Bloom is doing go well. GG on turn 3 is rough. No amount of SB skill will really help against a turn 2-3 win. Bloom, with a good opener can win turn 1. The problem with Bloom, that we don’t really have, is that you had to have X, Y and Z in your opening hand / 1st draw to combo. Our deck has 3-4 ways to go INFINITE with something, and it’s not wholly dependant on 1 or 2 cards. Technically, Elves can just win through numbers rather than combo if we needed to.
As for what I’m currently testing. I’m starting with dstathis’ list:
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2 Breeding Pool
1 Temple Garden
3 Forest
Creatures 30
3 Elvish Mystic
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Arbor Elf
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Dwynen’s Elite
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1 Regal Force
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Beck // Call
4 Summoner’s Pact
4 Cloudstone Curio
4 Collected Company
4 Elvish Archdruid
2 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Avoid Fate
4 Collected Company
4 Elvish Archdruid
2 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Avoid Fate
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2 Breeding Pool
1 Temple Garden
3 Forest
3 Elvish Mystic
4 Llanowar Elves
2 Arbor Elf
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Dwynen’s Elite
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Summoner’s Pact
4 Collected Company
In summation: I’m working on the speed version, with a transformative SB that will allow me to surprise the opponent game 1 with a fast combo deck, then transform into an aggro Collected Company deck that has no combo at all, and hopefully make the opponent play badly. Remember, Collected Elves is great too, and can win super fast as well, just in a different way.
The only card I’m milling over is Avoid Fate. I can always keep the combo (or revert back to the combo game 3), and I wanted a way to protect key cards while I’m comboing out. The other cards I like is Vines of Vastwood and Simic Charm. Each have their pros and cons –
Avoid Fate
Pros – Protects any one target, Curio included.
Counters the spell. Relevant for cards like Koligan’s Command.
Green counterspell. Who saw that coming?!
Cons –Needs to be an instant or aura. Yes, that hits a lot of things, but there are some sorceries that hurt too.
Vines of Vastwood
Pros – Protects any one target.
Gives it hexproof until EOT, which may be relevant in case a second spell is cast later.
Protects against abilities in addition to spells cast.
Can be used as a pump if needed.
Can be used against opponent’s cards (eg, Twin and Infect)
Cons – Only protects a creature, leaves removal to Curio open.
Simic Charm
Pros – Protects all permanents! Creatures AND artifacts
Gives Hexproof so that you can still target after the Charm resolves.
Has two other options that are useful and allow the card to remain relevant if protection is not needed. (eg, combo fails and you need to aggro them; bouncing a Regal Force or Craterhoof Behemoth if you can't kill them in one shot)
Cons – GU. 2cc and includes blue. Not even usable in the non-Beck decks. Part of the reason I’m thinking of dropping the 1 Temple Garden for another Breeding Pool or two.
I personally feel Simic Charm is the best option, but the 2cc w/ U is rough. Right now I’ll be testing each one to see which is more useful.
Anywho, that’s my rant for tonight. Unfortunately, I play Modern at my LGS only once or twice a month (they only play that much), but I do test on MWS. I’ll let you know what I find, and how good the deck works.
Remember, I’m just testing this all out like the rest of you. If you have suggestions, comments or concerns, I’d love to hear them. Even if this deck never reaches Tier 2, who cares. At your LGS, this deck will wreck people if built and tested correctly.
-Yawg
I totally see where you are coming from on the speed front. Elves in Extended were ridiculously fast. It won from "nowhere" extremely fast. It's totally understandable wanting to build a deck that mirrors the Extended Elves deck (especially since we have so many tools at our disposal that are close approximations and some new tools to make such a deck). I do think dstathis's deck is a good "mirror" of Extended Elves (replacing Glimpse of Nature with Beck and Summoner's Pact or Green Sun's Zenith)...while it is missing Natural Order; there are other potential win cons that can be utilized in Modern.
I actually really love the idea of a transformational sideboard. You are exactly right that poeple would bring in some artifact hate, maybe pithing needles, etc. if they have them to try to combat the combo; only to get run over by a super efficient "Aggro Elves" build It would be like playing Game One CoCo Elves in Game 2...ha! I think it's a great idea! The opponent would kill Heritage Druids and Nettle Sentinels left and right (thinking they are doing the right thing) only to get slammed by Archdruids and Ezuri's. I could honestly see this working as the fastest combo decks you will tend to just race; and when the game gets a little more "grindy" you can build some value through Collected Company. I like it!
We should be totally looking at combo elves from every possible angle. I think the Primer should offer a few different takes (assuming they are competitive at at least a Tier 2 level). I have just always been a "Value" player; and have found that (thanks mainly to devotion); the value/resilient version can still be quite fast (turn 3 god hands, but turn 4-5 average hands). Not as consistently fast as your and dstathis builds of course; which makes me so happy to see both options! That way, players/readers can choose what best fits them. I'm feeling much closer to a "set" list (thanks in part to G.Hydra but also due to changing a few Archrduids to Mystics as weird as that sounds).
P.S. Got the trigger order of Genesis Hydra down in all situations where you "reveal" Cloudstone Curio with a creature in play or reveal a creature with Curio already in play. I'll write them out in the primer.
Also Archdruid just seems to help cast larger Waves and Hydra's (and I'm hitting the Infinite mana combo with Dwynen's Elite way more often then I thought I would...it's three cards and a Curio just like the other combo; so I don't know why it was surprising...it just was
Anywho, here's the List:
ELF GENESIS COMBO
4x Arbor Elf
4x Heritage Druid
4x Nettle Sentinel
3x Elvish Mystic
4x Elvish Visionary
3x Dwynen's Elite
2x Elvish Archdruid
1x Shaman of the Pack
2x Genesis Hydra
Enchantments
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Abundant Growth
4x Cloudstone Curio
Sorcery/Instants
4x Genesis Wave
Land
4x Forest
1x Stomping Ground
3x Overgrown Tomb
2x Wooded Foothills
2x Verdant Catacombs
3x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2x Kessig Wolf Run
4x Thoughtseize
3x Abrupt Decay
4x Leyline of Vitality
1x Reclamation Sage
2x Cavern of Souls
1x Stain the Mind
The sideboard will probably see a few small changes given the recent addition of Genesis Hydra (although I've really enjoyed the use of Black thus far to slow/stop combo decks and deal with cheap hate artifacts/enchantments with Abrupt Decay...I probably won't post the full list again for a bit (unless something changes). Any time I discuss sideboard changes; I'll probably just either put the list in a spoiler or post only the sidebord (just so I don't take up a ton of more space).
Anwyo, this is the list I will be using all of tomorrow for testing. I plan on testing for about 12 hours straight against the top 10-12 decks in the meta (depending on how far we can get); so I'll let you guys/gals know what I find!
Awesome write up!! This is what I would LOVE to see more of. Nothing is more informative and useful than actual results from actual games! Thank you so much for posting this. Some SUPER interesting stuff here. I learned quite a bit.
Intruder Alarm has numerous synergies in the deck on top of this one...most likely just too slow; but still seems like something we should think about (given the addition of Dwynen's Elite to the Elves deck.
One of the bigger issues is that Intruder Alarm is a true "build around me" card (where you have to begin to warp your deck to accommodate it)...having said that; it would certainly be interesting to see a build going the route of Intruder Alarm decks of past with a new Elite twist