Recently on MTGO, I beat a popular magic writer with this deck (I only beat him a game; we did not play a match). He was streaming on twitch at the time. Since then I've gotten requests for the decklist. So here it is.
This deck regularly wins out of no where. The number of "Wows!" and "Wasn't expecting that." type messages made the name of this deck easy to come up with. This deck sits back passively acting like we don't want to fight; then - BAM! - We were about to lose but are now back to almost full health and our opponent is either knocked out or about about to be.
Concept: First, I wanted to figure out a way to abuse Soul Spike. After a little gathering digging - Increasing Vengeance peaked my interest.
It's not the combo of the century, but it was a start.
RR for a 16 point swing (+8/-8) with the drawback of requiring a 4 card investment. 3RR for a 24 point swing (+12/-12) with a 3 card investment and Increasing in your GY.
The early version was a B/R control deck that used this combo to end the game. It was... Ok...
Then I decided to spend more time trying to find another comparable card to Soul Spike. That's when I stumbled on this combo:
B +5 life to you; -4 to opponent BRR (Increasing) +10 life to you; -9 to opponent B3RR (increasing flashbacked) +15 life to you; -14 to opponent
After discussions, fielding suggestions, and plenty of play testing - I found more cards that worked well. Here's my currect 3/12/2015 build.
Explanations: Reverberate - Gives us 2-4 more copy effects; while also having the option of copying an opponents spell (which does come in handy sometimes). Chancellor of the Dross - Let's start the game with 23 life and the opponent at 17! Would be unplayable if not for Faithless (easy dump) and Soul Spike (easy pitch). Hard casted him once against a tokens deck; that was fun. Thunderous Wrath - After putting wrath in, taking it out, putting it in, taking it out - it's finally back in... Probably for good this time. Like Chancellor - it's only in the deck because of Faithless (easy dump) and Noxious (put it back on top of library). Sylvan Scrying - Fetches Grove or Boseiju (out of the SB). Abrupt Decay - Deals with most permanents in modern. Shred Memory - A lot of our cards are 2 Casting Cost. This can tutor them in a pinch. A lot of modern decks use their graveyard in some fashion - this can be used against them as well. Thoughtseize - Trading 2 life for any non-land? Yeah, I'll play it. Noxious Revival - This is the laborer of the deck; it does so much work! This deck wasn't winning much until this was added to it. Puts our combo parts back on top (in the case of Wrath - that's where it HAS to be.) Faithless Looting - The best cantrip red has imo. Leaves us -1 card after it's initial casting; but even and +4 cards we want/-4 cards we don't want after it's flashback. We have a lot of cards that we'll never be able to hard cast - this gets rid of them.
The sideboard is a work in progress and mostly adjusted to the MTGO meta. I think I'm a little too far in on "I'm not going to let blue beat this deck." But our aggro matchup is much better than our control matchup, so for now - I'm sticking with most of my SB being geared towards fighting through counters (the absolute worse thing that can happen to this deck is a counter hitting the card we're trying to copy).
Hopefully can get some ideas from the people here and inspire a few people to pick up this deck to try out with me.
Note: As tempting as it is to try to splash other colors - It's really hard because we have to try to keep B in the casting cost of most of the cards in the deck (so we have things to pitch to Soul Spike). It's good to have cards that are good but can sometimes be dead cards (like discard spells.)
I feel light lightning bolt warrants a place in this deck. You're essentially a really big burn deck, and bolt will help with creatures as well as go to the face. I know you need a lot of black for soul spike to work, but bolt is just too good to pass up. I think it's better than gitaxian probe.
Rain of gore in the sideboard will also help you against life gain (but not cards with lifelink). It being black probably makes it better than Skullcrack, Flames of the Blood Hand, or the new Atarka's Command which would require a green splash. You already have it with grove though I guess.
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Come watch me stream over at my twitch channel. I play Loam Pox, Ad Nauseam, and jank in modern on MTGO.
Grave hate also makes you way less efficient. So you need discard (unless BR has better ways to remove enchantments)...
Also, unless the opponent is using a greedy manabase you won't be able to kill them till at least 5/6 mana, since +8/-8 swing is still only 8 damage...
- Blightning is a good card that comes to mind when I think RB. Additionally it adds another burn spell to the deck without diluting the original gameplan.
- Rakdos Charm could be a good sideboard option.
- Veinfire Borderpost might be an option if you wanted another black/red card. Might not be worth it with so few basics but it's food for thought.
The idea seems really creative and I do like that. Nobody will see it coming.
I do have to point out that a counterspell after you've Fork'd the Trap/Spike will spell doom. Spell Pierce is going to be your enemy as is Remand.
All in all, it seems like one of those rogue decks that do some damage if built correctly. I hope you continue to fiddle with it until you find something that works!
I like the idea a lot. Maybe in a BR burn shell, that aims to go bigger? Add things like Lightning Bolt for removal and Skullcrack to control how much life is gained. I would cut a few Soul Spikes, its really good, but to many will leave you discarding Spikes to pay for Spikes. It looks like most burn lists only run 19-21 lands, so if you cut down a couple lands and the Spikes you would have more room.
For the side I like Rakdos CharmRain of Gore, and general discard. I would move your discard slots to the side, as if you follow a burn style game plan, you want every spell to do damage, at least 3. Good luck on the deck, it looks like a lot of fun!
But against the rare Soul Sisters or MaytrProc decks, it could come in handy. It would probably be the worst match up for the deck, so having a few sideboard cards for it isn't a terrible idea. There are probably better options around though. Maybe 4 Skullcracks and some Flames of the Blood Hand?
I like rakdos charm as it will kill twin if they combo off with Deceiver exarch. Since you are splashing green in the form of grove of the burnwillows, you may as well run destructive revelry or golgari charm to fight leyline. If you're looking for a free can trip GitaXian probe is not it. I'd reccomend street wraith because you can pitch it.
Rain of Gore Basically shuts down all my big burn spells and leaves me with nothing. It also shuts down Needlebite Trap completely I believe.
I'm strongly considering splashing green since I already have 4 lands producing it; so Atarka's Command sounds good; as does Kolaghan's Command.
As far as all the hate cards - only a few of those see play in modern, and any deck idea has hate cards that hose it. Splashing green for Revel (enchantment hate) is probably the way I'm going though. It'll also help me get Grove on a more consistent bases.
I've played with Blightning some and am still undecided on it's value.
Cutting a few Soul Spike's? Might be a good move. Maybe 2 is the way to go; as Trap is more often the way I kill people and also doesn't leave my hand depleted. Also been considering Thunderous Wrath; but it'd be a dead and unpitchable card if in my opening hand.
Didn't have a ton of time to tinker with this deck this weekend; but have a pretty open week this week; so will look into some of these suggestions and into the possibility of splashing green.
The biggest issue with this deck is if I go too controllish with it - I drag out the games but ultimately lose because I'm using my control cards instead of my combo cards. So I'm not sure the current shell is the correct one.
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'We are goblinkind, heirs to the mountain empires of chieftains past. Rest is death to us, and arson is our call to war.' - Goblin Chieftain
Played a match with this against burn. A few thoughts:
Firstly, you're way to greedy on the concept of life as a resource. On paper it would seem that playing a lifesteal deck like this would want to turn that into even further advantage with plenty of Sign in Blood and Phyrexian Mana Gitaxian Probe, but honestly that's not the case. This deck seems like it would use the huge point swing to just barely recover from having basically no presence. It's less of a Sucker Punch and more of a "Ha, you thought I didn't have a plan!" kind of come-from-behind victory. Wins with it are very hilarious but also very hard fought. The faster decks of the format make your matches a nail-biter.
So my point is, cut all the Sign in Blood and Gitaxian Probes. I didn't cast any of them in any of my games. Gitaxian Probe can't even be put into Soul Spike. I would cut 2 Soul Spikes as well for reasons others had said.
You definitely need to get a bit controllish. We don't win on turn 4- ever. That means you need to go for the long game whether you want to or not. Not even a double Reverberated Soul Spike wins you a game, afterall. So I'm saying Lightning Bolts, Thoughtseizes, and something else. Ideally more black cards to pitch to Soul Spike.
Also we need sideboard options against Infect or else we just auto-scoop, lol.
Yeah, it's still pretty raw in terms of capabilities. Burn is even one of the more favorable match-ups and even that isn't a guarentee. I took your suggestion of removing the Sign in Blood (I removed Gitaxian soon after I posted this.) And I decided to splash green primarily for Abrupt Decay and a little mana fixing (so I can get Grove on a more consistent bases).
I think you're right about staying on the controllish side. I'm 2-2 in TP with the build below. That's no great feat; but I've been under 50% with the version I posted above. The power of this deck is not Soul Spike & Increasing; it's Needlebite Trap & Increasing. So - I've reduced the Soul Spike # to 1 (which should maybe be 2). This reduction also helps get off the "most cards must have black" self imposed restriction. I've also began working on a sideboard, but mostly built it with cards I already had.
New additions:
6 Thoughtseize/Duress - Upped from 4 because I really want a turn 1 discard spell.
4 Lightning Bolt - Suggested above. Helps the deck race when needed, and control when needed; all depends on the situation.
2 Thunderous Wrath - The only reason I'm playing this is because Faithless Looting can help dump it and the card below can put it back on top.
2 Noxious Revival - Puts Needlebite Trap and Thunderous Wrath back on top of the deck for 2 life. Might end up making this 4 as they do a lot of work in this deck because it's doing the same thing as increasing and reverberate just with a 1 turn delay.
4 Abrupt Decay - The main reason I decided to splash green instead of blue (which would fit an all out combo version). Obvious addition.
2 Sylvan Scrying - Helps get Grove. Chose over expedition map because I want to be forcing a discard turn 1; not dropping a map.
1 Rakdos's Return - Should probably be something else, but just trying it out.
Then we have the whole sideboard which is self-explanatory.
You're totally right-- I kept using Soulspike as an example but Trap is definitely the allstar here. Additionally, I'm sure this calls for a change in title.
I think you made a good call on going down to 1 Soulspike as well, especially for the purpose of giving you more splash options.
Some more opinions:
I think you should go Inquisition of Kozilek over Duress. I mean, basically all spells are CMC 3 or lower. You can't hit a Siege Rhino or Kiki-Jiki with Duress anyways. Inquisition of Kozilek will help with all your scary aggro match-ups as well (Burn, Infect, Affinity)
I love the Noxious Revival, skeptical on Thunderous Wrath since I'm usually grounded on 3 to 4 land, which is just barely enough to copy those sweet Needlebites. Thunderous Wrath is a sweet closer but I think you might be overvaluing direct burn as opposed to lifegain-- cos we reeeeeeally need that lifegain to do all our fancy tricks like flashing back Bump in the Night and Noxious Reviving our Thunderous Wraths. (Edit: Didn't realize Bump in the Night was taken out. Good choice. Still skeptical on Thunderous Wrath though. Damn shame we're not in Helix Bolt's colours.)
Great call on Sylvan Scrying over Expedition Map, and a great inclusion. When I first tried your deck and got my opening hand, I went: "Where's my Grove???"
Yeah I still think this deck is too cheap on mana to get value of Rakdos's Return. Wait, if you wanted to do this, then why the hell isn't it Blightning??
All in all, I think it's a lot of strong changes with discard options and esp. Noxious Revival. I am really loving anything that gives us more of these huge swings of damage-for-life.
This looks too fun not to try. I want to try it in a more combo fashion. Keep the hand flowing early game and focus on going over the top with flashbacks later on. As a base test, something like:
You're totally right-- I kept using Soulspike as an example but Trap is definitely the allstar here. Additionally, I'm sure this calls for a change in title.
I think you made a good call on going down to 1 Soulspike as well, especially for the purpose of giving you more splash options.
Some more opinions:
I think you should go Inquisition of Kozilek over Duress. I mean, basically all spells are CMC 3 or lower. You can't hit a Siege Rhino or Kiki-Jiki with Duress anyways. Inquisition of Kozilek will help with all your scary aggro match-ups as well (Burn, Infect, Affinity)
I love the Noxious Revival, skeptical on Thunderous Wrath since I'm usually grounded on 3 to 4 land, which is just barely enough to copy those sweet Needlebites. Thunderous Wrath is a sweet closer but I think you might be overvaluing direct burn as opposed to lifegain-- cos we reeeeeeally need that lifegain to do all our fancy tricks like flashing back Bump in the Night and Noxious Reviving our Thunderous Wraths. (Edit: Didn't realize Bump in the Night was taken out. Good choice. Still skeptical on Thunderous Wrath though. Damn shame we're not in Helix Bolt's colours.)
Great call on Sylvan Scrying over Expedition Map, and a great inclusion. When I first tried your deck and got my opening hand, I went: "Where's my Grove???"
Yeah I still think this deck is too cheap on mana to get value of Rakdos's Return. Wait, if you wanted to do this, then why the hell isn't it Blightning??
All in all, I think it's a lot of strong changes with discard options and esp. Noxious Revival. I am really loving anything that gives us more of these huge swings of damage-for-life.
Since you mentioned it - I tried out a version with Helix in place of Lightning Bolt, and I think the deck has to keep the 3 color set-up (unless we want to dip into City of Brass type lands). Too many games were lost because I didn't have the proper color combinations. So either WorG would be the splash; not both.
Kozilek over Duress sounds right. Noxious Revival has not let me down; it feels like a keeper. Thunderous Wrath hasn't won me a game yet and is probably coming out.
The real card I wish I could get into the deck is Morsel Theft. BUT... only if I can figure out a way to cast it for it's Prowl cost. But that would require a 20 or so creature investment (or bitterblossom + a few others) and every non-instant/sorcery makes the Reverberate effect's less potent. I searched the deepest parts of my deck building mind to find a way to get it in - but could not (Mutavault was the easiest answer I could come up with; since I could grab it with Sylvan, but I don't think it's good enough). It's a shame because Morsel would definitely put this deck in a much more powerful place.
UPDATE: I'm still losing more than I win but the % has improved. LOTS of close games that this deck Wins or loses by the tiniest of margin. Newest card I'm experimenting with: Shred Memory (in place of faithless looting.) Most of this deck is 2 Casting Cost, so it is basically a tutor for 1 less than the best available tutor. Also does graveyard work in a pinch.
You're right - Blightning should be there if I'm experimenting with that. Or even Wrench Mind?
This looks too fun not to try. I want to try it in a more combo fashion. Keep the hand flowing early game and focus on going over the top with flashbacks later on. As a base test, something like:
Everything else you've discussed seems good. Not sure how I feel about Shred Memory. Transmute tutors are so damn slow-- A sorcery-speed 3CMC tutor for a limited selection of cards in a format that is really not conducive to wasting turns looking for things. Noxious Revival, Blightning, or even Morsel Theft are more sensible choices.
Wait-- I just thought of something.
Lilliana of the Veil. Go for it.
Everything else you've discussed seems good. Not sure how I feel about Shred Memory. Transmute tutors are so damn slow-- A sorcery-speed 3CMC tutor for a limited selection of cards in a format that is really not conducive to wasting turns looking for things. Noxious Revival, Blightning, or even Morsel Theft are more sensible choices.
Wait-- I just thought of something.
Lilliana of the Veil. Go for it.
While I would love to try out Lilliana of the Veil - I don't currently have any and am not looking to invest any mtgo tickets into her as that would require selling off a large quantity of my collection to bots. We also don't have a way to protect her like the other decks that run her do; so I feel like it'd be 3 mana for 1 discard or 1 sacrifice creature effect.
Shred is working ok. You're right - Ideally, turn 3 should be some powerful things happening - but that's not the case a lot of the time - so I feel like it's not so terrible to go get Abrupt Decay or Sylvan Scrying or Terminate or even an Increasing. I feel like turn 4 is far more crucial for this deck; and the most common turn where we finally have the juice to do the first life swing. If we don't have a big play by turn 4 - we're probably dead. That's not to say Shred is a keeper; just that it hasn't been bad for me.
More testing: Went ahead and tried Morsel Theft. Used Mutavault and Silhana Ledgewalker to activate it's prowl. Even when I pulled off casting it for it's Prowl cost (and even though Muta and Ledgewalker won me a few games themselves) - I Was ultimately left wanting more. It's just not explosive enough for what this deck is trying to do.
Testing Blightning has been inconclusive. Sometimes I love drawing it - other times I wish it were something with less casting cost.
I feel like Vexing Shusher is a must in the sideboard. Probably as a 3 of. Control decks are far more damaging to this deck than aggro decks are.... Nothing is worse than casting our Trap and Increasing it only to have our original spell remanded (essentially countering both cards at once.) Is there a better option than Vexing?
So, I've reached the point where I feel like I'm winning 50% of my matches in Tournament Practice on MTGO (this could also be due to experience with the deck; as I'm well over 100 matches with it.) I've done it with a build that has some big differences from what has been discussed so far.
Updated the OP with the new deck. It's EASILY the one I feel best about so far.
The 2 big additions: Thunderous Wrath - Seems funny that I questioned this and agreed that it probably didn't belong here - but now that I have 4 Faithless Looting, and 3 Noxious - it rarely sits in my hand the whole game; and often sees work from the top of my deck.
Comparing it to lightning bolt:
If Lightning Bolt is in our opening hand - it does 3 damage from your hand at some point in the game.
If Thunderous is in out opening hand - it probably does 0 damage from our hand at some point in the game.
If Lightning Bolt is drawn off the top of our deck - it does 3 damage at some point in the game.
If Thunderous is drawn off the top of the deck - it does 5 damage at that point in the game.
BUT:
If Lightning Bolt off the top is copied - it does 6 damage. If we have a Noxious in hand - we can put it back on top to do 9 total.
If Thunderous off the top is copied - it does 10 damage. If we have Noxious in hand - we can put it back on top to do 15 total.
So imo (and probably quite obvious) the only time Lightning bolt is better is in our opening hand.
Chancellor of the Dross - Probably seems really iffy. But I really like what it does here. Explained in more detail in the first post.
Yeah, I guesss I can get behind Chancellor of the Dross and Thunderous Wrath if we're using a lot of looting. Still not sure if it's more valuable to Noxious Revive a Needlebite Trap or a Thunderous Wrath, but I guess it's always good to have more targets. In that case, have you considered more looting?
I like the looting subtheme. Always a powerful subtheme for the fast-but-not-TOO-fast world of Modern and I think you've made it work nicely. Stil ldon't like that Shred Memory though. I'll be replacing it with a Liliana or some more form of looting for awhile.
Why the Thoughtseize and Abrupt Decay? Making this an all out copy burn deck would probably give it more consistency. I'd go with Lightning Bolt, because it can take out most things Abrupt Decay can and double as a burn to the face, and another "3 damage for 1 mana" spell like Bump in the Night or Rift Bolt.
Doesn't Blood Moon in the Sideboard make it very hard for you to win yourself?
PS: You have no way to deal with Leyline of Sanctity or Infect decks or Artifact decks. Counterspells may be annoying for this deck but it looks like you roll over to a lot of the top tier of the meta. I suggest laying off all the blue hate and siding in cards that deal with the above.
Why the Thoughtseize and Abrupt Decay? Making this an all out copy burn deck would probably give it more consistency. I'd go with Lightning Bolt, because it can take out most things Abrupt Decay can and double as a burn to the face, and another "3 damage for 1 mana" spell like Bump in the Night or Rift Bolt.
Doesn't Blood Moon in the Sideboard make it very hard for you to win yourself?
PS: You have no way to deal with Leyline of Sanctity or Infect decks or Artifact decks. Counterspells may be annoying for this deck but it looks like you roll over to a lot of the top tier of the meta. I suggest laying off all the blue hate and siding in cards that deal with the above.
Well, for #1 it makes a lousy Burn deck. Needlebite Traps, Reverbrates, and even Grove of the Burnwillows slows down your consistency as a Burn deck and makes it less efficent.
Unfortunately it also makes a lousy Combo deck, because we'd need to cast at least 4 Needlebite Traps and a Thunderous Wrath to actually kill our opponent, depending on how many times we get to copy those effects. I don't care how much digging for pieces you put in, playing this like a combo deck instantly puts it in Casual territory because it's really not going to do anything unless your opponent lets you cast off your "combo" 3 or more times.
So, obviously, the best way is to play it in a control shell that allows you to slow the game pace to try and get off all those Needlebite Traps.
Well, for #1 it makes a lousy Burn deck. Needlebite Traps, Reverbrates, and even Grove of the Burnwillows slows down your consistency as a Burn deck and makes it less efficent.
Unfortunately it also makes a lousy Combo deck, because we'd need to cast at least 4 Needlebite Traps and a Thunderous Wrath to actually kill our opponent, depending on how many times we get to copy those effects. I don't care how much digging for pieces you put in, playing this like a combo deck instantly puts it in Casual territory because it's really not going to do anything unless your opponent lets you cast off your "combo" 3 or more times.
So, obviously, the best way is to play it in a control shell that allows you to slow the game pace to try and get off all those Needlebite Traps.
Yeah, this is pretty much it. I've tried going without the control shell and it just doesn't work. There's many situations where Abrupt Decay is MUCH better than Lightning Bolt (not the least of all being that Abrupt Decay cannot be countered.)
I've won on turn 4 a total of two times now. That's out of 100ish matches. We win around turn 5-7 more often than any other turn, which is a LONG time in modern.
The only chance we have is: Disrupting what our opponent is trying to do via Discard and Destruction long enough to swing life in our favor and stretch the game...
On paper - it probably doesn't seem those 8 spells would disrupt the game long enough - but they (along with the life gain) do.
Blood Moon is a monster in the control matchup, the amulet bloom match, and especially against any kind of tron deck. We can still win without Trap so it's not the end of the world if we shut that off (we also could Abrupt Decay it in a pinch). If I was running a version without Thunderous Wrath - I'd probably reconsider it more though.
I think you're right about being too geared towards blue.
- For Leyline - I probably should bring in Destructive Revelry.
- For Affinity - Revelry would work there as well. I've won Affinity match-ups without any specific Artifact hate though. So I don't think we need more than that.
- For Infect - Geth's Verdict can potentially ruin their gameplan. But it's probably not enough. Maybe a singleton Melira, Sylvok Outcast?
I haven't been running into much Infect online, so it hasn't been a big deal.
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'We are goblinkind, heirs to the mountain empires of chieftains past. Rest is death to us, and arson is our call to war.' - Goblin Chieftain
The 2 new additions:
2 Treasured Find - Acts as Noxious Revival except it actually puts the card in our hand so we still get a draw next turn. Sometimes this means we get to win this turn... If Noxious wasn't free and if I wasn't running Thunderous Wrath - I'd probably change it to a 3/1 split. But a 2/2 split of the graveyard recursion seems right for the current build.
The big issue is that with 4 Faithless, 4 Increasing, and 2/2 Split of Noxious and Treasured - we're now more vulnerable to graveyard hate.
2 Infernal Tutor - In a way - this is +2 Reverberate/Increasing, because most of the time I'm duplicating one of them or a Needlebite Trap. It also has the small chance of being a Demonic Tutor if Hellbent is on. Cut 2 lands for this; 23 seemed like too much. 21 Seems better.
Also took some earlier advice from Overmaster and started running inquisition of kozilek. Haven't looked back since the inclusion.
Small tweaks to the sideboard as well.
Name change coming soon..... Will be known as Needle Grove..... Banner being made atm.
This deck regularly wins out of no where. The number of "Wows!" and "Wasn't expecting that." type messages made the name of this deck easy to come up with. This deck sits back passively acting like we don't want to fight; then - BAM! - We were about to lose but are now back to almost full health and our opponent is either knocked out or about about to be.
Concept: First, I wanted to figure out a way to abuse Soul Spike. After a little gathering digging - Increasing Vengeance peaked my interest.
It's not the combo of the century, but it was a start.
RR for a 16 point swing (+8/-8) with the drawback of requiring a 4 card investment.
3RR for a 24 point swing (+12/-12) with a 3 card investment and Increasing in your GY.
The early version was a B/R control deck that used this combo to end the game. It was... Ok...
Then I decided to spend more time trying to find another comparable card to Soul Spike. That's when I stumbled on this combo:
B +5 life to you; -4 to opponent
BRR (Increasing) +10 life to you; -9 to opponent
B3RR (increasing flashbacked) +15 life to you; -14 to opponent
After discussions, fielding suggestions, and plenty of play testing - I found more cards that worked well. Here's my currect 3/12/2015 build.
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Blood Crypt
1 Graven Cairns
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Stomping Ground
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Forest
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Temple of Malice
4 Chancellor of the Dross
SPELLS (34)
4 Needlebite Trap
4 Thunderous Wrath
2 Soul Spike
4 Increasing Vengeance
2 Reverberate
2 Sylvan Scrying
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Shred Memory
4 Thoughtseize
3 Noxious Revival
4 Faithless Looting
1 Geth's Verdict
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Volcanic Fallout
1 Molten Rain
3 Vexing Shusher
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Blood Moon
1 Boil
1 Damnation
Explanations:
Reverberate - Gives us 2-4 more copy effects; while also having the option of copying an opponents spell (which does come in handy sometimes).
Chancellor of the Dross - Let's start the game with 23 life and the opponent at 17! Would be unplayable if not for Faithless (easy dump) and Soul Spike (easy pitch). Hard casted him once against a tokens deck; that was fun.
Thunderous Wrath - After putting wrath in, taking it out, putting it in, taking it out - it's finally back in... Probably for good this time. Like Chancellor - it's only in the deck because of Faithless (easy dump) and Noxious (put it back on top of library).
Sylvan Scrying - Fetches Grove or Boseiju (out of the SB).
Abrupt Decay - Deals with most permanents in modern.
Shred Memory - A lot of our cards are 2 Casting Cost. This can tutor them in a pinch. A lot of modern decks use their graveyard in some fashion - this can be used against them as well.
Thoughtseize - Trading 2 life for any non-land? Yeah, I'll play it.
Noxious Revival - This is the laborer of the deck; it does so much work! This deck wasn't winning much until this was added to it. Puts our combo parts back on top (in the case of Wrath - that's where it HAS to be.)
Faithless Looting - The best cantrip red has imo. Leaves us -1 card after it's initial casting; but even and +4 cards we want/-4 cards we don't want after it's flashback. We have a lot of cards that we'll never be able to hard cast - this gets rid of them.
The sideboard is a work in progress and mostly adjusted to the MTGO meta. I think I'm a little too far in on "I'm not going to let blue beat this deck." But our aggro matchup is much better than our control matchup, so for now - I'm sticking with most of my SB being geared towards fighting through counters (the absolute worse thing that can happen to this deck is a counter hitting the card we're trying to copy).
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Old Decklist from my first post:
4 Blood Crypt
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Sulfurous Springs
3 Temple of Malice
3 Graven Cairns
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Soul Spike
4 Needlebite Trap
4 Reverberate
4 Bump in the Night
4 Duress (or Thoughtseize)
4 Sign in Blood
4 Terminate
2 Faithless Looting
3 Gitaxian Probe
That's the basics of it.
Hopefully can get some ideas from the people here and inspire a few people to pick up this deck to try out with me.
Note: As tempting as it is to try to splash other colors - It's really hard because we have to try to keep B in the casting cost of most of the cards in the deck (so we have things to pitch to Soul Spike). It's good to have cards that are good but can sometimes be dead cards (like discard spells.)
Rain of gore in the sideboard will also help you against life gain (but not cards with lifelink). It being black probably makes it better than Skullcrack, Flames of the Blood Hand, or the new Atarka's Command which would require a green splash. You already have it with grove though I guess.
Grave hate also makes you way less efficient. So you need discard (unless BR has better ways to remove enchantments)...
Also, unless the opponent is using a greedy manabase you won't be able to kill them till at least 5/6 mana, since +8/-8 swing is still only 8 damage...
Retired: WUEphara, God of the PolisWU blink | WGerrard CapashenW lifegain | WUB Ertai, the CorruptedWUB combo | WAvacyn, Angel of HopeW
mono-white controlangel tribalPauper: UBDimirKittyUB | RBG Deathcycle RBG
Modern: GWUEnchantressGWU | GWUTurbofogGWU
- Rakdos Charm could be a good sideboard option.
- Veinfire Borderpost might be an option if you wanted another black/red card. Might not be worth it with so few basics but it's food for thought.
The idea seems really creative and I do like that. Nobody will see it coming.
I do have to point out that a counterspell after you've Fork'd the Trap/Spike will spell doom. Spell Pierce is going to be your enemy as is Remand.
All in all, it seems like one of those rogue decks that do some damage if built correctly. I hope you continue to fiddle with it until you find something that works!
For the side I like Rakdos Charm Rain of Gore, and general discard. I would move your discard slots to the side, as if you follow a burn style game plan, you want every spell to do damage, at least 3. Good luck on the deck, it looks like a lot of fun!
Cheeri0sXWU
Reid Duke's Level One
Who's the Beatdown
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Cheeri0sXWU
Reid Duke's Level One
Who's the Beatdown
Alt+0198=Æ
Modern: Eldrazi CB,
Didn't have a ton of time to tinker with this deck this weekend; but have a pretty open week this week; so will look into some of these suggestions and into the possibility of splashing green.
The biggest issue with this deck is if I go too controllish with it - I drag out the games but ultimately lose because I'm using my control cards instead of my combo cards. So I'm not sure the current shell is the correct one.
Firstly, you're way to greedy on the concept of life as a resource. On paper it would seem that playing a lifesteal deck like this would want to turn that into even further advantage with plenty of Sign in Blood and Phyrexian Mana Gitaxian Probe, but honestly that's not the case. This deck seems like it would use the huge point swing to just barely recover from having basically no presence. It's less of a Sucker Punch and more of a "Ha, you thought I didn't have a plan!" kind of come-from-behind victory. Wins with it are very hilarious but also very hard fought. The faster decks of the format make your matches a nail-biter.
So my point is, cut all the Sign in Blood and Gitaxian Probes. I didn't cast any of them in any of my games. Gitaxian Probe can't even be put into Soul Spike. I would cut 2 Soul Spikes as well for reasons others had said.
You definitely need to get a bit controllish. We don't win on turn 4- ever. That means you need to go for the long game whether you want to or not. Not even a double Reverberated Soul Spike wins you a game, afterall. So I'm saying Lightning Bolts, Thoughtseizes, and something else. Ideally more black cards to pitch to Soul Spike.
Also we need sideboard options against Infect or else we just auto-scoop, lol.
Modern: Eldrazi CB,
I think you're right about staying on the controllish side. I'm 2-2 in TP with the build below. That's no great feat; but I've been under 50% with the version I posted above. The power of this deck is not Soul Spike & Increasing; it's Needlebite Trap & Increasing. So - I've reduced the Soul Spike # to 1 (which should maybe be 2). This reduction also helps get off the "most cards must have black" self imposed restriction. I've also began working on a sideboard, but mostly built it with cards I already had.
4 Blood Crypt
1 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Temple of Malice
2 Graven Cairns
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Stomping Ground
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Increasing Vengeance
1 Soul Spike
4 Needlebite Trap
3 Reverberate
2 Thunderous Wrath
4 Thoughtseize
3 Terminate
2 Faithless Looting
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Noxious Revival
2 Sylvan Scrying
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Rakdos's Return
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Darkness
1 Geth's Verdict
1 Dragon's Claw
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Volcanic Fallout
2 Molten Rain
1 Vexing Shusher
2 Guttural Response
3 Damnation
New additions:
6 Thoughtseize/Duress - Upped from 4 because I really want a turn 1 discard spell.
4 Lightning Bolt - Suggested above. Helps the deck race when needed, and control when needed; all depends on the situation.
2 Thunderous Wrath - The only reason I'm playing this is because Faithless Looting can help dump it and the card below can put it back on top.
2 Noxious Revival - Puts Needlebite Trap and Thunderous Wrath back on top of the deck for 2 life. Might end up making this 4 as they do a lot of work in this deck because it's doing the same thing as increasing and reverberate just with a 1 turn delay.
4 Abrupt Decay - The main reason I decided to splash green instead of blue (which would fit an all out combo version). Obvious addition.
2 Sylvan Scrying - Helps get Grove. Chose over expedition map because I want to be forcing a discard turn 1; not dropping a map.
1 Rakdos's Return - Should probably be something else, but just trying it out.
Then we have the whole sideboard which is self-explanatory.
I think you made a good call on going down to 1 Soulspike as well, especially for the purpose of giving you more splash options.
Some more opinions:
I think you should go Inquisition of Kozilek over Duress. I mean, basically all spells are CMC 3 or lower. You can't hit a Siege Rhino or Kiki-Jiki with Duress anyways. Inquisition of Kozilek will help with all your scary aggro match-ups as well (Burn, Infect, Affinity)
I love the Noxious Revival, skeptical on Thunderous Wrath since I'm usually grounded on 3 to 4 land, which is just barely enough to copy those sweet Needlebites. Thunderous Wrath is a sweet closer but I think you might be overvaluing direct burn as opposed to lifegain-- cos we reeeeeeally need that lifegain to do all our fancy tricks
like flashing back Bump in the Night andNoxious Reviving our Thunderous Wraths. (Edit: Didn't realize Bump in the Night was taken out. Good choice. Still skeptical on Thunderous Wrath though. Damn shame we're not in Helix Bolt's colours.)Great call on Sylvan Scrying over Expedition Map, and a great inclusion. When I first tried your deck and got my opening hand, I went: "Where's my Grove???"
Yeah I still think this deck is too cheap on mana to get value of Rakdos's Return. Wait, if you wanted to do this, then why the hell isn't it Blightning??
All in all, I think it's a lot of strong changes with discard options and esp. Noxious Revival. I am really loving anything that gives us more of these huge swings of damage-for-life.
Modern: Eldrazi CB,
4 Liliana's Caress
4 Dark Deal
4 Burning Inquiry
3 Soul Spike
4 Needlebite Trap
4 Increasing Vengeance
4 Howling Mine
4 Noxious Revival
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Empty the Pits
4 Graven Cairns
1 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained More
4 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Lavaclaw Reaches
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Phyexian Arena
2 Anger of the Gods
3 Rakdos Charm
3 Blood Moon
2 Destructive Revelry
1 Black Sun's Zenith
Since you mentioned it - I tried out a version with Helix in place of Lightning Bolt, and I think the deck has to keep the 3 color set-up (unless we want to dip into City of Brass type lands). Too many games were lost because I didn't have the proper color combinations. So either Wor G would be the splash; not both.
Kozilek over Duress sounds right. Noxious Revival has not let me down; it feels like a keeper. Thunderous Wrath hasn't won me a game yet and is probably coming out.
The real card I wish I could get into the deck is Morsel Theft. BUT... only if I can figure out a way to cast it for it's Prowl cost. But that would require a 20 or so creature investment (or bitterblossom + a few others) and every non-instant/sorcery makes the Reverberate effect's less potent. I searched the deepest parts of my deck building mind to find a way to get it in - but could not (Mutavault was the easiest answer I could come up with; since I could grab it with Sylvan, but I don't think it's good enough). It's a shame because Morsel would definitely put this deck in a much more powerful place.
UPDATE: I'm still losing more than I win but the % has improved. LOTS of close games that this deck Wins or loses by the tiniest of margin. Newest card I'm experimenting with: Shred Memory (in place of faithless looting.) Most of this deck is 2 Casting Cost, so it is basically a tutor for 1 less than the best available tutor. Also does graveyard work in a pinch.
You're right - Blightning should be there if I'm experimenting with that. Or even Wrench Mind?
Looks fun; might try this out if the version I've been working on proves impossible to get over the 50% hump.
Let us know how it goes.
Wait-- I just thought of something.
Lilliana of the Veil. Go for it.
Modern: Eldrazi CB,
While I would love to try out Lilliana of the Veil - I don't currently have any and am not looking to invest any mtgo tickets into her as that would require selling off a large quantity of my collection to bots. We also don't have a way to protect her like the other decks that run her do; so I feel like it'd be 3 mana for 1 discard or 1 sacrifice creature effect.
Shred is working ok. You're right - Ideally, turn 3 should be some powerful things happening - but that's not the case a lot of the time - so I feel like it's not so terrible to go get Abrupt Decay or Sylvan Scrying or Terminate or even an Increasing. I feel like turn 4 is far more crucial for this deck; and the most common turn where we finally have the juice to do the first life swing. If we don't have a big play by turn 4 - we're probably dead. That's not to say Shred is a keeper; just that it hasn't been bad for me.
More testing: Went ahead and tried Morsel Theft. Used Mutavault and Silhana Ledgewalker to activate it's prowl. Even when I pulled off casting it for it's Prowl cost (and even though Muta and Ledgewalker won me a few games themselves) - I Was ultimately left wanting more. It's just not explosive enough for what this deck is trying to do.
Testing Blightning has been inconclusive. Sometimes I love drawing it - other times I wish it were something with less casting cost.
I feel like Vexing Shusher is a must in the sideboard. Probably as a 3 of. Control decks are far more damaging to this deck than aggro decks are.... Nothing is worse than casting our Trap and Increasing it only to have our original spell remanded (essentially countering both cards at once.) Is there a better option than Vexing?
Just had my first turn 4 win:
Opening Hand: 3 lands (including a Grove of the Burnwillows), Noxious Revival, Needlebite Trap, Reverberate, Increasing Vengeance (this is literally all I needed)
Turn 1 - Play land; hope opponent doesn't have discard - He doesn't!
Turn 2 - Play another land. Pass Turn.
Turn 3 - Play Grove of the Burnwillows. Then at end of his turn - hit him with Needlebite Trap + Increasing Vengeance the trap. Then play Noxious Revival to put Needlebite back on top of deck.
Turn 4 - Play Needlebite Trap + Reverberate the trap.
GG
Now we just have to figure out how to make that happen with consistency.
Updated the OP with the new deck. It's EASILY the one I feel best about so far.
The 2 big additions:
Thunderous Wrath - Seems funny that I questioned this and agreed that it probably didn't belong here - but now that I have 4 Faithless Looting, and 3 Noxious - it rarely sits in my hand the whole game; and often sees work from the top of my deck.
Comparing it to lightning bolt:
If Lightning Bolt is in our opening hand - it does 3 damage from your hand at some point in the game.
If Thunderous is in out opening hand - it probably does 0 damage from our hand at some point in the game.
If Lightning Bolt is drawn off the top of our deck - it does 3 damage at some point in the game.
If Thunderous is drawn off the top of the deck - it does 5 damage at that point in the game.
BUT:
If Lightning Bolt off the top is copied - it does 6 damage. If we have a Noxious in hand - we can put it back on top to do 9 total.
If Thunderous off the top is copied - it does 10 damage. If we have Noxious in hand - we can put it back on top to do 15 total.
So imo (and probably quite obvious) the only time Lightning bolt is better is in our opening hand.
Chancellor of the Dross - Probably seems really iffy. But I really like what it does here. Explained in more detail in the first post.
I like the looting subtheme. Always a powerful subtheme for the fast-but-not-TOO-fast world of Modern and I think you've made it work nicely. Stil ldon't like that Shred Memory though. I'll be replacing it with a Liliana or some more form of looting for awhile.
Modern: Eldrazi CB,
Why the Thoughtseize and Abrupt Decay? Making this an all out copy burn deck would probably give it more consistency. I'd go with Lightning Bolt, because it can take out most things Abrupt Decay can and double as a burn to the face, and another "3 damage for 1 mana" spell like Bump in the Night or Rift Bolt.
Tormenting Voice might be good here.
Doesn't Blood Moon in the Sideboard make it very hard for you to win yourself?
PS: You have no way to deal with Leyline of Sanctity or Infect decks or Artifact decks. Counterspells may be annoying for this deck but it looks like you roll over to a lot of the top tier of the meta. I suggest laying off all the blue hate and siding in cards that deal with the above.
Well, for #1 it makes a lousy Burn deck. Needlebite Traps, Reverbrates, and even Grove of the Burnwillows slows down your consistency as a Burn deck and makes it less efficent.
Unfortunately it also makes a lousy Combo deck, because we'd need to cast at least 4 Needlebite Traps and a Thunderous Wrath to actually kill our opponent, depending on how many times we get to copy those effects. I don't care how much digging for pieces you put in, playing this like a combo deck instantly puts it in Casual territory because it's really not going to do anything unless your opponent lets you cast off your "combo" 3 or more times.
So, obviously, the best way is to play it in a control shell that allows you to slow the game pace to try and get off all those Needlebite Traps.
Modern: Eldrazi CB,
Yeah, this is pretty much it. I've tried going without the control shell and it just doesn't work. There's many situations where Abrupt Decay is MUCH better than Lightning Bolt (not the least of all being that Abrupt Decay cannot be countered.)
I've won on turn 4 a total of two times now. That's out of 100ish matches. We win around turn 5-7 more often than any other turn, which is a LONG time in modern.
The only chance we have is: Disrupting what our opponent is trying to do via Discard and Destruction long enough to swing life in our favor and stretch the game...
On paper - it probably doesn't seem those 8 spells would disrupt the game long enough - but they (along with the life gain) do.
Blood Moon is a monster in the control matchup, the amulet bloom match, and especially against any kind of tron deck. We can still win without Trap so it's not the end of the world if we shut that off (we also could Abrupt Decay it in a pinch). If I was running a version without Thunderous Wrath - I'd probably reconsider it more though.
I think you're right about being too geared towards blue.
- For Leyline - I probably should bring in Destructive Revelry.
- For Affinity - Revelry would work there as well. I've won Affinity match-ups without any specific Artifact hate though. So I don't think we need more than that.
- For Infect - Geth's Verdict can potentially ruin their gameplan. But it's probably not enough. Maybe a singleton Melira, Sylvok Outcast?
I haven't been running into much Infect online, so it hasn't been a big deal.
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Blood Crypt
1 Gemstone Mines
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Stomping Ground
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
CREATURES (3)
3 Chancellor of the Dross
SPELLS (34)
4 Needlebite Trap
3 Thunderous Wrath
1 Soul Spike
4 Increasing Vengeance
2 Reverberate
2 Sylvan Scrying
4 Abrupt Decay
4 inquisition of kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
2 Noxious Revival
2 Treasured Find
4 Faithless Looting
2 Infernal Tutor
1 Geth's Verdict
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Volcanic Fallout
1 Sowing Salt
3 Vexing Shusher
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Destructive Revelry
2 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Boil
1 Damnation
The 2 new additions:
2 Treasured Find - Acts as Noxious Revival except it actually puts the card in our hand so we still get a draw next turn. Sometimes this means we get to win this turn... If Noxious wasn't free and if I wasn't running Thunderous Wrath - I'd probably change it to a 3/1 split. But a 2/2 split of the graveyard recursion seems right for the current build.
The big issue is that with 4 Faithless, 4 Increasing, and 2/2 Split of Noxious and Treasured - we're now more vulnerable to graveyard hate.
2 Infernal Tutor - In a way - this is +2 Reverberate/Increasing, because most of the time I'm duplicating one of them or a Needlebite Trap. It also has the small chance of being a Demonic Tutor if Hellbent is on. Cut 2 lands for this; 23 seemed like too much. 21 Seems better.
Also took some earlier advice from Overmaster and started running inquisition of kozilek. Haven't looked back since the inclusion.
Small tweaks to the sideboard as well.
Name change coming soon..... Will be known as Needle Grove..... Banner being made atm.
I find this deck is actually quite fun right now in the meta
Here's my take on it:
4x Alms of the Vein
4x Bump in the Night
4x Cathartic Reunion
3x Claim / Fame
4x Faithless Looting
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Dragonskull Summit
3x Mountain
5x Swamp
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Soul Spike
4x Chancellor of the Dross
4x Monastery Swiftspear
4x Vexing Devil