I see that many players on this thread a are using 2-3 Mantis Riders. Don't you hate spending 3 mana and then see your creature getting bolted? I can see why it's good in Humans where it can become a 4/4 and because no one has 30 Bolts to kill all Humans, but in our decks? Is everyone who's using this card happy with it?
@Stevo: I love me some Mantis. They usually do not die to bolts on average. First bolt is taken by Delver, mantis comes in hot T3-4. In past builds I held up counter/protection magic ( I will be going back to this style I think). It also synergies with Godhead so nicely. A 5/5 lifelink unblockable fly vigilance is super nice. It can be tricky getting the mana right on T3 but it also can put your opponent on a fast clock.
@ccc: I do not own 4 snappys, and do not own spell queller. I am very impressed with quelller and may pick some up. Snappys I am still getting use to playing.
Wow jeskai team. We got some great news today. Modern Horizons will FOR SURE have multiple cards that fit into a tempo archetype. They mentioned that they were trying to make fringe archetypes better and I guarantee Delver is one of those archetypes. I am going to start testing Daze and possibly Counterspell soon. I think there is a 95% chance at least one of those cards in in the set. He mentioned that the Buy a box promo is a blue reprint from legacy that goes into modern (almost assuredly either daze or counterspell, but I assume it's counterspell.). There are "reprints" which are cards that are currently legacy legal, but not modern legal that will now be modern legal.
I wanted to do a quick brainstorm (pun intended) for cards our deck would love to see:
1. Daze
2. Counterspell
3. Preordain
4. Force of Will (very unlikely)
5. Ponder (also unlikely)
6. Brainstorm (unlikely)
7. Chain Lightning
Any others? Also there will be new cards which could also fit. Maybe a new prowess 1 drop.
Flusterstorm (maybe)
True-Name Nemesis (no)
Baleful Strix (likely)
Accumulated Knowledge (likely)
Back to Basics (likely)
I think "fringe" means fringe. jeskia is too popular and grix delver too.
Sorry to Counter your Daze
I am going to try your Deck this FNM. So if it doesnt work it's your fault. JK
:). I'm hoping daze is in the set, but I think it's much more likely that Counterspell is likely in it. Flusterstorm is a really good call. That is one I could definitely see them reprinting.
Who's list are you trying this week at FNM? If it's mine here is the current build:
The deck does take some getting us to, but if you do play it I hope it treats you well. Flex slot could be (steel of godhead, distortion strike, boros charm, planeswalker, negate-if you want to free up a sideboard slot, etc).
Just purchased some dazes and counterspells since theyre cheap now in case of a price explosion.
But this is concerning to me
“Modern Horizons is made with the idea of being a draftable booster set and will release June 14.“
Is WoTC really making the same mistake again? Why does it being draftable such an importance? Can they focus on the format for gods sakes?
Why is modern the format left without format specific product.. standard, commander each have format specific and focused product. Clearly modern is a cash cow so its deff not money.
I also see that they said
“all cards will be new to modern”
So kidd reprints good bye guys and I am somewhat suspicious of this..
Is this the way they meld modern into legacy and undo the format??
I cant help but be a little....apprehensive
And as for the card that will be printed... i doubg it will be anything we want at this point. Everytime things seem predictable wotf has proven theyre not. Only time things are predictable is when theyre blatant about it like Jace unbanning. Apart from that its always a shot in the dark. For the most part.
I believe wel see something like back to basics maybe even rystic studies or something around there. Itl be cool no doubt but perhaps even somewhat underwhelming. Counterspell and daze are exactly the perfect power level and for that reason I think they will not be in the set.
But again predictability with them is zero, im also a uneducated rambling child so theres that too.
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I also think that Flusterstorm is a really good call because it's not too powerful. The question is: is it powerful enough? I don't think it could replace Spell Pierce in the main deck. Would you add it to the SB? I saw that this is often done in Legacy. But I wouldn't want to cut Dispel for it...
Interesting build, very fast and low to the ground.
Have you had any experience with merfolk mistcaller?
Also have you ever considered steel of the god head for the sideboard i think its such a great card for lists that run spell queller. In my experience its a very very good combo to slap queller on your opponents turn and then slap the steel on it.
Such a great combo.
No i don't have try it. 3 mana is risky to tap out for equipment on my creature. But yeah it seems very nice card tho.
I see that many players on this thread a are using 2-3 Mantis Riders. Don't you hate spending 3 mana and then see your creature getting bolted? I can see why it's good in Humans where it can become a 4/4 and because no one has 30 Bolts to kill all Humans, but in our decks? Is everyone who's using this card happy with it?
For my exp with manits is soo good. I have win many games with is cuz they dont always have answear to take is away. And if i am on turn 3 and have 2 delver flipp and and mantis coming. Thats is a lot of dmg! 9 in air But i can see your point there
Flusterstorm is quite powerful but the top three-four decks right now dont rely on non creature spells, and one could argue dont even care if their spells resolve..cough arclight phoenix cough..
If control gets to the top then definitely fluster storm would be a top pick and blow spell pierce out of the water as it is an anti-control control card.
In my opinion of course.
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The anounced modern "exclusive" expansion sure is interesting, with 2 cards spoiled already and one of them being a very creative approach to bringing a Legacy staple into the modern format I am really excited! (Cabal Therapy --> Cabal Therapist)
Carddesigns like this renews my faith into WotC and that they really are going to support modern in the long run and dont just throw in cards to make the format more powerful. Basically keeping the personality of the Modern format intact. As modern players we dont want another format like legacy, we want our most favourite format to be different, with our own toys and the occasional reprints form older sets, just like counterspell, or daze, or even flusterstorm, but I will go over those in a bit.
I really hope they keep innovative ideas comming, with new hatecards against specific archetypes and cards that make not only our jeskai delver deck, but much more fringe archetypes playable, or even decks that havent existed before, making modern even more diverse than it is now.
So you guys already discussed a few cards that could become modern legal, here are my thoughts.
Many people complain about ancient stirrings to be banworthy, but I have to disagree, here is why. You have to build your deck with that card in mind, just as we build our decks with delver in mind, hence keeping the I/S count high. Ancient stirrings decks have to build there deck with that card in mind and fold to hate cards quite easily most of the time, like stony silence or blood moon/alpine moon.
With that being said, I do not think that we will get any of the blue cantrips, as they could just unban the card, but they havent and with phoenix being the dominant deck at the moment I cant see WotC giving them another tool.
Counterspell, Daze and Flusterstorm are a complete different pair of shoes. Daze would be the card I would want to see the most out of the 3, but is probably the most dangerous as well with DS in the mix, as it would represent another very powerful counterspell in their deck with an upside off 2-4 damage the next turn. But Daze could help our deck tremendously, answering a threat while being tapped out could be huge.
Counterspell is probably the card we will get, Logic Knot has filled that slot in the slower versions off jeskai control for some time and the UU manarestriction is a small hindrance.
Flusterstrom is weird, the card is bonkers against and in storm, but without force of will in the format I cant really see why we would want that card right now. As stated above the arclight decks dont really care if their spells resolve, as long as they can cast 3 in one turn or set up for future turns a flusterstorm doesnt really do much against them.
I play tested a few hands with this deck and it seemed a bit weird. The playstyle feels like you need a threat in hand. I also did not see good ways to cast the bedlam on T4-5 spell count in GY was low. I am sure it will play differently with an opponent. What advice would you offer for keeping hands.
I am not going to FNM. My LGS is closing and I dont really want to go to another one right now. I am also a bit tired and sore from work.
Jordan Boisvert at Modern Nexus added a few more sweet cards to the christmas list-
Fire // Ice Divert Impulse- not one he added, but another one I would love to have as a 1 of in my deck
WickedApp- The deck is very matchup dependent so it doesn't really goldfish all that well. I will admit that the build is an odd deck that takes some getting used to. It's much more aggro control than it is tempo. By that I mean it really prefers to have a threat(s) on the board and then keep the game somewhat clear until it can burn out or kill them. If Daze is in the set I may have to switch to a more straight tempo style deck.
Another thing is that the 4x snapcaster mage and 2x bedlam reveler are a very important part of the top end of the deck. They help us burn people out and regain card advantage we may have lost. I know you don't have any additional copies of snapcaster mage so that isn't an option, but I wouldn't replace them with another swiftspear or ptremander. Swiftspear is almost a necessary evil in the deck so I wouldn't run more than 3. I would suggest an additional copy of faithless looting and/or spell queller to get more play into the deck and more velocity.
If you want to see someone play an early version of the deck you can look up great nate on youtube. He played the deck years ago and it was somewhat similar at the time.
My advice for keeping hands is that keeping one land hands with a cantrip is totally fine. The deck does not function well when it floods. Keeping three land openers is fine as long as you have some more impactful spells. I also suggest keeping hands with early plays. Whether that be a threat, a spell pierce, or a cantrip you want to be casting spells early and often. If you have in a game and have reveler in hand or snap don't be afraid to bolt the opponents face to get the card in the graveyard and to have additional spells.
I hope you like the new store you go to. I assume many of the people from your old store will likely end up there. Also making a playtest/FNM group with friends from the store can also be fun.
Hi all. I tested Daze a little last night. I am sorry to report that I was a little underwhelmed. It really wasn't extremely effective unless I was in the lead. Daze just doesn't fit really well into my current build. I still think the card would be a great addition to modern, but I would definitely have to tweak my deck.
With that said, I need to change my build to a more straight tempo oriented style build to really benefit from Daze. I will put together a list thatis more conducive to daze before I test it again. I think the builds that will benefit the most will be young pyromancer/monastery mentor builds. I think Daze would really help straight tempo style builds compete in modern. I will keep you posted on what I come up with in terms of a different list to utilize daze.
I think daze would go SO well with spell queller and more tempo counter heavy deck. Thanks for the heads up i did suspect as much but Jeskai is a super versatile deck with all variations i am certain there is variation that can use daze very effectively.
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this new london mulligan could be potentially broken. Sphinx of foresight will be very very powerful now if this mulligan rule takes hold.
My playgroup has implemented the new mulligan rule during testing and I can say from my minimal experience that is is VERY good for some decks. I have really enjoyed it for our deck. Jeskai delver is notoriously (at least for us) a poor deck at mulliganing. However, this new rule really helps. Because we basically have a dedicated early game and late game, you can basically shuffle your late game stuff back into the deck and keep your early game stuff in your hand which is really helpful.
I haven't played sphinx of foresight with the new rule yet, but it is likely one of the cards that really benefits similar to the leylines.
My plan is to playtest Divert next in terms of cards that may be reprinted that we can use.
Sphinx is a good card but in my play testing it performed badly as a hand opener. Yes you get a 3 scry but you also have a dead card for 3-5 turns. the trade off is long game or short game.
I didn't test sphinx with the new rule but did test against decks like dredge, phoenix, hardened scales, etc. For the most part I didn't see a giant difference. The only glaring difference I noticed is that you don't get the "free" wins from decks like dredge. Dredge seemed to benefit the most. They have several cards that they definitely don't want in their opener and can mulligan often. The new rule seemed to really smooth out dredges gameplan when I tested against it.
Another deck that I heard a lot of people thought would benefit was Tron. However, I didn't see that. It seemed just about the same in terms of consistency.
Other than dredge I didn't see a major difference. However, I didn't get to play with a several decks (amulet titan, whir prison, and GBx midrange) in the format due to time constraints.
We are going to do it again this week so I will let you guys know if I notice anything else.
I tested with 2x Sphinx of Foresight in my main deck for three weeks and even though they felt great at first in the end they were pretty underwhelming. They're just not good enough against too many decks in the meta. A 4/4 flyer is solid against decks like Merfolk, Humans and Spirits because we can burn their lords but all the unfair decks and control decks just laugh about Sphinx.
At the moment I am testing with 2x Light up the Stage and 1x Secure the Wastes in my main deck. Both cards are great so far.
With only 2x Spell Pierce and 2x Remand and 9 burn spells main Light Up almost always feels good and even protects against hand disruption. When I board in counters like Dispel or Disdainful Stroke I usually board out 1 Light Up.
Secure the Wastes is fantastic because there are always matches that go long and "Create 3-6 tokens during your end step" can turn the tide against many decks.
If London Mulligan becomes a thing I'll definitely add 2x Leyline of Sanctity to my SB.
I totally agree. Leyline of Sanctity will almost be a must have in the sideboard after the london mulligan rule is in place. My hope is that modern horizons adds some powerful midrange threats and powerful answers so that modern slows down just a tad. I don't want modern to slow down too much because we delver players normally have a pretty great track record against most combo decks. However, I just love playing against midrange decks. The long games with tons of decisions are just a ton of fun to play even though they have been some of our worst matchups in the past.
I think they will end up keeping the london mulligan rule and possibly using it as a way to ban Faithless Looting. That is baseless speculation on my part, but I do think they will stick with the london mulligan rule at least in modern and standard. I have heard multiple people say it's way to good for vintage dredge, but I play literally no vintage magic so I have no idea.
As for my deck, I am back to the original build until I see what comes out of Modern Horizons. Changing Remand into Daze made me realize just how good Remand is in our deck. It's never a truly dead card. I think to take advantage of Daze I would have to remake the deck from the ground up.
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@Stevo: I love me some Mantis. They usually do not die to bolts on average. First bolt is taken by Delver, mantis comes in hot T3-4. In past builds I held up counter/protection magic ( I will be going back to this style I think). It also synergies with Godhead so nicely. A 5/5 lifelink unblockable fly vigilance is super nice. It can be tricky getting the mana right on T3 but it also can put your opponent on a fast clock.
@ccc: I do not own 4 snappys, and do not own spell queller. I am very impressed with quelller and may pick some up. Snappys I am still getting use to playing.
I wanted to do a quick brainstorm (pun intended) for cards our deck would love to see:
1. Daze
2. Counterspell
3. Preordain
4. Force of Will (very unlikely)
5. Ponder (also unlikely)
6. Brainstorm (unlikely)
7. Chain Lightning
Any others? Also there will be new cards which could also fit. Maybe a new prowess 1 drop.
True-Name Nemesis (no)
Baleful Strix (likely)
Accumulated Knowledge (likely)
Back to Basics (likely)
I think "fringe" means fringe. jeskia is too popular and grix delver too.
Sorry to Counter your Daze
I am going to try your Deck this FNM. So if it doesnt work it's your fault. JK
:). I'm hoping daze is in the set, but I think it's much more likely that Counterspell is likely in it. Flusterstorm is a really good call. That is one I could definitely see them reprinting.
Who's list are you trying this week at FNM? If it's mine here is the current build:
3 Monastery Swiftspear
1 Spell Queller
2 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Bedlam Reveler
4 Opt
3 Serum Visions
1 Faithless Looting
2 Spell Pierce
2 Remand
3 Path to Exile
1 Vapor Snag
1 Echoing Truth
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
1 Flex Slot
1 Seachrome Coast
1 Inspiring Vantage
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Flooded Strand
1 Steam Vents
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Deflecting Palm
1 Lavinia, Azorious Renegade
1 Stony Silence
1 Wear // Tear
1 Abrade
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Negate
1 Dispel
2 Alpine Moon
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Izzet Staticaster
The deck does take some getting us to, but if you do play it I hope it treats you well. Flex slot could be (steel of godhead, distortion strike, boros charm, planeswalker, negate-if you want to free up a sideboard slot, etc).
Also I am trying a new land base, but haven't run it a lot. I changed the Glacial Fortress and Arid Mesa for a Seachrome Coast and Inspiring Vantage.
But this is concerning to me
“Modern Horizons is made with the idea of being a draftable booster set and will release June 14.“
Is WoTC really making the same mistake again? Why does it being draftable such an importance? Can they focus on the format for gods sakes?
Why is modern the format left without format specific product.. standard, commander each have format specific and focused product. Clearly modern is a cash cow so its deff not money.
I also see that they said
“all cards will be new to modern”
So kidd reprints good bye guys and I am somewhat suspicious of this..
Is this the way they meld modern into legacy and undo the format??
I cant help but be a little....apprehensive
And as for the card that will be printed... i doubg it will be anything we want at this point. Everytime things seem predictable wotf has proven theyre not. Only time things are predictable is when theyre blatant about it like Jace unbanning. Apart from that its always a shot in the dark. For the most part.
I believe wel see something like back to basics maybe even rystic studies or something around there. Itl be cool no doubt but perhaps even somewhat underwhelming. Counterspell and daze are exactly the perfect power level and for that reason I think they will not be in the set.
But again predictability with them is zero, im also a uneducated rambling child so theres that too.
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No i don't have try it. 3 mana is risky to tap out for equipment on my creature. But yeah it seems very nice card tho.
For my exp with manits is soo good. I have win many games with is cuz they dont always have answear to take is away. And if i am on turn 3 and have 2 delver flipp and and mantis coming. Thats is a lot of dmg! 9 in air But i can see your point there
If control gets to the top then definitely fluster storm would be a top pick and blow spell pierce out of the water as it is an anti-control control card.
In my opinion of course.
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Carddesigns like this renews my faith into WotC and that they really are going to support modern in the long run and dont just throw in cards to make the format more powerful. Basically keeping the personality of the Modern format intact. As modern players we dont want another format like legacy, we want our most favourite format to be different, with our own toys and the occasional reprints form older sets, just like counterspell, or daze, or even flusterstorm, but I will go over those in a bit.
I really hope they keep innovative ideas comming, with new hatecards against specific archetypes and cards that make not only our jeskai delver deck, but much more fringe archetypes playable, or even decks that havent existed before, making modern even more diverse than it is now.
So you guys already discussed a few cards that could become modern legal, here are my thoughts.
Many people complain about ancient stirrings to be banworthy, but I have to disagree, here is why. You have to build your deck with that card in mind, just as we build our decks with delver in mind, hence keeping the I/S count high. Ancient stirrings decks have to build there deck with that card in mind and fold to hate cards quite easily most of the time, like stony silence or blood moon/alpine moon.
With that being said, I do not think that we will get any of the blue cantrips, as they could just unban the card, but they havent and with phoenix being the dominant deck at the moment I cant see WotC giving them another tool.
Counterspell, Daze and Flusterstorm are a complete different pair of shoes. Daze would be the card I would want to see the most out of the 3, but is probably the most dangerous as well with DS in the mix, as it would represent another very powerful counterspell in their deck with an upside off 2-4 damage the next turn. But Daze could help our deck tremendously, answering a threat while being tapped out could be huge.
Counterspell is probably the card we will get, Logic Knot has filled that slot in the slower versions off jeskai control for some time and the UU manarestriction is a small hindrance.
Flusterstrom is weird, the card is bonkers against and in storm, but without force of will in the format I cant really see why we would want that card right now. As stated above the arclight decks dont really care if their spells resolve, as long as they can cast 3 in one turn or set up for future turns a flusterstorm doesnt really do much against them.
4 Monastery Swiftspear
1 pteramander
2 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Bedlam Reveler
4 Opt
3 Serum Visions
1 Faithless Looting
2 Spell Pierce
2 Remand
3 Path to Exile
1 Vapor Snag
1 Echoing Truth
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
1 Seachrome Coast
1 Inspiring Vantage
4 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
1 Steam Vents
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
3 check lands
I play tested a few hands with this deck and it seemed a bit weird. The playstyle feels like you need a threat in hand. I also did not see good ways to cast the bedlam on T4-5 spell count in GY was low. I am sure it will play differently with an opponent. What advice would you offer for keeping hands.
I am not going to FNM. My LGS is closing and I dont really want to go to another one right now. I am also a bit tired and sore from work.
Fire // Ice
Divert
Impulse- not one he added, but another one I would love to have as a 1 of in my deck
WickedApp- The deck is very matchup dependent so it doesn't really goldfish all that well. I will admit that the build is an odd deck that takes some getting used to. It's much more aggro control than it is tempo. By that I mean it really prefers to have a threat(s) on the board and then keep the game somewhat clear until it can burn out or kill them. If Daze is in the set I may have to switch to a more straight tempo style deck.
Another thing is that the 4x snapcaster mage and 2x bedlam reveler are a very important part of the top end of the deck. They help us burn people out and regain card advantage we may have lost. I know you don't have any additional copies of snapcaster mage so that isn't an option, but I wouldn't replace them with another swiftspear or ptremander. Swiftspear is almost a necessary evil in the deck so I wouldn't run more than 3. I would suggest an additional copy of faithless looting and/or spell queller to get more play into the deck and more velocity.
If you want to see someone play an early version of the deck you can look up great nate on youtube. He played the deck years ago and it was somewhat similar at the time.
My advice for keeping hands is that keeping one land hands with a cantrip is totally fine. The deck does not function well when it floods. Keeping three land openers is fine as long as you have some more impactful spells. I also suggest keeping hands with early plays. Whether that be a threat, a spell pierce, or a cantrip you want to be casting spells early and often. If you have in a game and have reveler in hand or snap don't be afraid to bolt the opponents face to get the card in the graveyard and to have additional spells.
I hope you like the new store you go to. I assume many of the people from your old store will likely end up there. Also making a playtest/FNM group with friends from the store can also be fun.
With that said, I need to change my build to a more straight tempo oriented style build to really benefit from Daze. I will put together a list thatis more conducive to daze before I test it again. I think the builds that will benefit the most will be young pyromancer/monastery mentor builds. I think Daze would really help straight tempo style builds compete in modern. I will keep you posted on what I come up with in terms of a different list to utilize daze.
It could indeed be a maindeck card as a 1 of. And I could see running 2 in the sideboard to put in vs spell heavy decks.
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My playgroup has implemented the new mulligan rule during testing and I can say from my minimal experience that is is VERY good for some decks. I have really enjoyed it for our deck. Jeskai delver is notoriously (at least for us) a poor deck at mulliganing. However, this new rule really helps. Because we basically have a dedicated early game and late game, you can basically shuffle your late game stuff back into the deck and keep your early game stuff in your hand which is really helpful.
I haven't played sphinx of foresight with the new rule yet, but it is likely one of the cards that really benefits similar to the leylines.
My plan is to playtest Divert next in terms of cards that may be reprinted that we can use.
And I have a feeling that cards made for this new rule are gonna be printed in horizons and if not there they will surely print them in later sets.
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BRWMardu PyromancerWRB
Another deck that I heard a lot of people thought would benefit was Tron. However, I didn't see that. It seemed just about the same in terms of consistency.
Other than dredge I didn't see a major difference. However, I didn't get to play with a several decks (amulet titan, whir prison, and GBx midrange) in the format due to time constraints.
We are going to do it again this week so I will let you guys know if I notice anything else.
As for our deck I actually really liked the rule
Well i really hope E-tron doesnt see a rise if it does in fact help tron.. bc that would suck a**
But other then that, thats great news, i dont have much of a problem with dredge tbh.
Let us know what else you observe in testing!
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At the moment I am testing with 2x Light up the Stage and 1x Secure the Wastes in my main deck. Both cards are great so far.
With only 2x Spell Pierce and 2x Remand and 9 burn spells main Light Up almost always feels good and even protects against hand disruption. When I board in counters like Dispel or Disdainful Stroke I usually board out 1 Light Up.
Secure the Wastes is fantastic because there are always matches that go long and "Create 3-6 tokens during your end step" can turn the tide against many decks.
If London Mulligan becomes a thing I'll definitely add 2x Leyline of Sanctity to my SB.
I think they will end up keeping the london mulligan rule and possibly using it as a way to ban Faithless Looting. That is baseless speculation on my part, but I do think they will stick with the london mulligan rule at least in modern and standard. I have heard multiple people say it's way to good for vintage dredge, but I play literally no vintage magic so I have no idea.
As for my deck, I am back to the original build until I see what comes out of Modern Horizons. Changing Remand into Daze made me realize just how good Remand is in our deck. It's never a truly dead card. I think to take advantage of Daze I would have to remake the deck from the ground up.