This is a nice point. I can understand the theory that you'd like equal access to your cards, so a lot of 3's makes sense. However at some point you need to look at them and say, which of these is the best single card, and make that a 4. Then do that again until you can't.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern UB Tezzerator UBW Gifts B 8Rack
Legacy RB Goblins
I've been tenoted to cut Rabble for the tidehollow scullers, but I'm still on the fence about it. I know the Interactions are strong, but I also feel like we have a fair chance game 1 against combo without him
I've ended game versus combo and control fairly quickly by just playing Mogg War Marshall into a Rabblemaster. He just gives you an outstanding clock that isn't Butcher of the Horde. Also, His little tokens that keep swinging in, with a blood artist in play, are probably draining 1 a turn because of chump blocks, which I've had quite a few stalemates turn in my favor because of that!
I like the idea of Siege Rhino in the Junk version. I guess I was trying too hard to look for something that complimented the rest of the deck the way Butcher/Falken do, but it does feel like a natural fit. Given the lack of desirable three drops besides Lingering Souls, I think I'll start by running 3, maybe even 4 copies. That said, I should perhaps give a couple of Kitchen Finks a fair shake sometime.
I have been impressed a lot with Bob in the deck. I've only gotten about 8-10 matches in so far between the two versions, but he's easily the card that's won me the most games. That said, he's actually rarely my turn two play w/out having an idea of what my opponent is on. Between Blood Artist or a potentially vulnerable Cartel, people seem eager to get our two drops off the table for fear of what they can enable. Depending on my hand, it's often felt correct to let one of your more engine based cards bite the bullet so that you can play and keep Bob around.
As for Tidehollow Sculler, that's another card I've always wanted to have work with the deck. He feels more natural in the Legacy shell due to having a desirable 1 drop sac outlet in Carrion Feeder and doubling as another Zombie for your Gravecrawlers. Nevertheless, I hope to getting around to testing it out soon. With the overall core of the deck, it feels like you have to choose between some number of Tidehollows vs. finishers. I definitely agree that he would shore up the combo matches, but would like to see how he fairs against the rest of the field.
Rabblemaster a bit slow? It swings for 1 > 6 > 8. If they fetched for a shock ever, they are dead. If you had a blood artists on the field they are dead. If they have no interaction they are dead. By itself a Rabblemaster is a 4 turn clock starting on turn 3.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Bring back Transmute as a U/B mechanic and take your mill back to the depths of hell where it came from!
The way I see it, this is how my current build runs (Game 1)
- 75% vs aggro
- 75% vs control
- 45-50% vs combo
Adding Tidehollow would result in this
- 45-50% vs aggro
- 55-60% vs control
- 75% vs combo
I just don't know if adding Tidehollow to smooth out game 1 vs combo is worth hurting my very favorable matchups. I'll take a 50/50 game 1 against combo when I can side into thoughtseize, wear//tear, rakdos charm, and leyline depending games 2&3. The aggro matchup is something you MUST be able to win game 1 with this deck, as game 2 they're going to know they have to just let go of the brakes and deploy all available resources versus your deck
The best cards vs Aggro are Butcher, Finks, and Blood Artist. If your meta is a bunch of zoo (big and little) your going to want to run at least 3 Finks main, and all 4 blood artists. That is what is great though, so many options for us. The decklist isn't a set in stone 75 cards. It is very flexible with what you want to prepare for.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Bring back Transmute as a U/B mechanic and take your mill back to the depths of hell where it came from!
I think you may not even need Finks if you're on the siege rhino plan, but then again I may be completely wrong. I feel like I've had a great aggro game even without the Finks myself. It's probably because I play butcher however.
When I play paper-Magic-modern I run a Orzhov Midrange deck with Lingering Souls and Sorin, Solemn Visitor. It's been awesome! I've never really tried Sorin, Lord of Innistrad in modern though. However, The Solemn Visitor could be really good in the Orzhov build of Aristocrats as well. It's probably a nice alternative to get an edge agains aggressive decks since you can't play Butcher of the Horde.
Regarding graveyard hate I have not had the displeasure of playing that much against it, but I always pack at least a two-of Wear // Tear or Disenchant in the board. The only real problem cards in my opinion is Rest in Peace and Leyline of the Void as they are replacement effects that shuts down Blood Artist. Relic of Progenitus and Nihil Spellbomb (which a lot of people think are better kinds of hate cards because they don't have to cost you a card) are a bit worse against us. Luckily there isn't a lot of Rest in Peace in the meta right now and it's not that hard to play around Relic of Progenitus and Scavenging Ooze.
Well I have not actually faced anyone who has brought in graveyard hate against me before. I can say that onetime someone brought in leyline of sanctity against the Blood Artists and that would have been laughable if I wasn't on a mull to 4.
How I can think it would go is like this. They bring in a hate card for half of our deck. What if we draw the other half? Instead of drawing lingering souls and blood artists we draw Rabblemaster into Falkenrath/Butcher and punish them. No they put this RIP in play while we just beat them down for 1- 10 damage turn 3 and 4.
If you are sure they have RIP or Leyline in their sideboard then you should probably board out the Blood Artist as that does absolutely nothing if it can't target anything.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Bring back Transmute as a U/B mechanic and take your mill back to the depths of hell where it came from!
I'm just getting into modern and I think this would be a great first deck for me to start with, decently cheap, very much my style, and reminds me of the first deck I ever played against (ini-rtr aristocrats) so has a lot of fond memories.
Just curious though, why isn't this deck on the radar of more players and what's stopping this deck from being a tier 1/tier 2 deck?
Graveyard hate hurts,but it is definitely something that we can play through. For instance, I was playing against relic of progenitus that a tron deck brought in, and in response to him activating it, I sacced my board and rally the ancestors for lethal. even if it's rest in peace you just play an aggressive strategy at that point. You may have boarsed in wear // Tear also So you can answer it.
As for the tiers of the deck, Durnam. I feel the main reason is because of how new it is? I mean, this thread I created is only a week old. So it is definitely a new strategy. In due time I think it'll get where it should be
From the Tarkir block this deck has gotten many more options, and this thread really reminded people of what it can do. Siege Rhino, Butcher of the Horde, Grim haruspex. Sorin Solemn Visitor etc… these things have just given the deck more options and put i track on the radar.
This is not a new strategy. The name itself stems from a fairly successful Standard deck played a few years back that used both Cartel Aristocrat and Falkenrath Aristocrat to sac dudes for value. Hopefully with a Blood Artist on the table. That basic premise hasn't changed much, and the idea of sacrificing your own dudes for fun and profit has been around for a long time. Even before Grave Pact existed...
It's not tier 1 because it's probably not good enough. A couple people testing the deck and posting... optimistic... win percentages against the field isn't enough to declare a deck competitive. Posting 3-1 or 4-0 results in Daily Modern Events on MTGO is a much better indicator of a deck's potential. I am a fan of this sort of deck, but it does lack the raw power level of other competitive modern decks. We play individually less powerful cards in the hopes that their synergy makes up for it. But that synergy has prerequisites that need to be met before it comes into fruition.
For example, a blood artist with nothing to sac isn't scary. A sacrifice outlet with nothing to sac isn't scary. But once we get both a sac outlet and a blood artist and some fodder to sacrifice, we're in business. That's why a card like Rally the Ancestors generates buzz. The opponent can thoughtseize your key cards. They can wipe your board. They can counter your blood artist. But if you resolve a Rally, suddenly all the pieces are present and you're in business (assuming we weren't wiped with an Anger of the Gods, or Path to Exile, etc).
Whereas turn 1 Delver/flip or turn 2 Tarmogoyf are brutally efficient and dangerous with no assistance. Dedicated combos can go off with just two cards. EoT Deceiver Exarch + Splinter Twin is a devastating and game ending move. Is it impossible to stop? Or course not. But that level of raw power wins games. We ain't got that level of raw power, so the 'free wins' thing doesn't happen all that much. People do not scoop when you drop your turn 1 Doomed Traveler.
Still, the deck has potential. I think Butcher of the Horde might be an upgrade to Falkenrath Aristocrat (lifelink seems pretty important for this deck), and Falkenrath Aristocrat is a pretty good magic card. And Rally may be just the thing to bring it into the tier 2 world. Jamming lots and lots of games will help figure it out. And as also noted above, the shell is very flexible. You can go aggro, midrange, or control while still maintaining the premise of sacrficing your guys for the win.
Cards to toy around with in different shells, depending on your playstyle include: Viscera Seer - Best sac outlet for non-aggro version in my opinion. Athreos, God of Passage - For those focused less on tokens. Shriekmaw - Great card. Saccing with his trigger on the stack is always good times. Dark Prophecy - commitment to black makes it tough in the B/W/r shell. But if there is a deck to break this card, some version of Aristocrats is probably it. Tidehollow Sculler - Already championed further up in the thread by another poster. I agree with him re: it's usefulness. Teysa, Orzhov Scion - Good card that gets no love. Works particularly nicely with creatures that are both black and white, like the sculler. Might combo with something like... Bitterblossom - A neverending stream of sacrificial faeries might work. Damnation I actively want my creatures to die. Might as well take yours along with them. An individually strong card that increases the overall power level of the deck. Less good in focused aggro decks, of course. Pawn of Ulamog - Maybe I've had too many beers, but it seems like this could be good in some version of the deck.
Well, that goes to show not only is the deck very flexible outside of the core of the deck, but also shows it can definitely win against the tier 1 and 2 decks (Something I already knew)
Sadly, I suspect a playset of Inquisition and/or Thoughtseize may end up being necessary to really compete. Not particularly surprising I guess, given the power level of the cards and the speed of the format. And I suppose seeing Lightning Bolt in a winning list is something to be expected as well. Tragic Slip is a sweet one, though, right out of the old standard aristocrats deck.
I wonder if the zombie aggro package is faster on average than the more goblin-esque versions that have been posted. By running a group of critters that recur themselves, he's lessened the need for something like Rally the Ancestors.
Interesting stuff.
*Edit* Soul Sisters seems like a tougher match-up unless you have sweepers.
I think that list does look really good, and I might just be wrong, but it does look like it has a somewhat weak Tron matchup, which to me is the most important matchup to win against. At least in my area, there's 2-3 tron decks per shop. I also see tron gradually becoming even more of the metagame, even if it isn't the traditional RG tron.
If youre running junk colors Id suggest trying Satyr Wayfinder. It grabs lands to fix your mana in the early game, dumps creatures for rally (and Lingering Souls), and when reanimated it can help you dig for Gavony Township. Its not as good if you arent running a decent amount of the reanimation spells (Return to the Ranks and Rally the Ancestors) but i feel that the junk colors give you the best resources available to go on that plan as most of what you want to be running in junk are 1-2 drops.
Theres a list Sam Black posted last year that I used as the starting point for my junk list (adding rally of course) and so far its been testing very well. The deck is very explosive. The only problem postboard is that you are more weak to grave-hate but i feel this is mostly covered by the fact that you can run both Qasali Pridemage and Abrupt Decay out of the board.
Boarded out my lightning bolts today against U/W/R Giest... He boarded in izzet staticaster and wrecked my day. I got game one easily, he got game two like I said. Didn't get to play a game 3 sadly. But this proves even more so to me that bolt never comes out lol.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Bring back Transmute as a U/B mechanic and take your mill back to the depths of hell where it came from!
I am curious as to why no one has mentioned using Hide // Seek as a viable option to handle enchantments. On top of being able to tuck an enchantment or artifact, you can hurt many of the decks in the Modern format by grabbing an important deck piece proactively - both at instant speed.
I use it sometimes. It just replaces the wear/tear slot in the board when your meta calls for it. You want it more against like tron, and less against like affinity or U/W/R. I didn't bring it up because I was trying to keep the thread more on track with what should be in the main deck. The sideboard I feel is something that should be figures out before each different event based on what you feel you need to be prepared to play against, and what you think the strengths and weaknesses of the main deck are.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Bring back Transmute as a U/B mechanic and take your mill back to the depths of hell where it came from!
Has anyone been able to do any testing with the Abzan version (with Siege Rhino)? It's not my playstyle really as I prefer a more aggressive approach, but in the few games I played with it, it felt very effective as well
I've been playing my Junk list lately. On phone and heading to bed, but will post updated list and experiences thus far in the morning if I get time. Will say I've been liking the deck.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
Modern = RBW Aristocrats (Here's the primer thread I made!)
BGW Endless Renewal ( The primer right here! )
Legacy = UB Stiflenought
Modern = RBW Aristocrats (Here's the primer thread I made!)
BGW Endless Renewal ( The primer right here! )
Legacy = UB Stiflenought
I have been impressed a lot with Bob in the deck. I've only gotten about 8-10 matches in so far between the two versions, but he's easily the card that's won me the most games. That said, he's actually rarely my turn two play w/out having an idea of what my opponent is on. Between Blood Artist or a potentially vulnerable Cartel, people seem eager to get our two drops off the table for fear of what they can enable. Depending on my hand, it's often felt correct to let one of your more engine based cards bite the bullet so that you can play and keep Bob around.
As for Tidehollow Sculler, that's another card I've always wanted to have work with the deck. He feels more natural in the Legacy shell due to having a desirable 1 drop sac outlet in Carrion Feeder and doubling as another Zombie for your Gravecrawlers. Nevertheless, I hope to getting around to testing it out soon. With the overall core of the deck, it feels like you have to choose between some number of Tidehollows vs. finishers. I definitely agree that he would shore up the combo matches, but would like to see how he fairs against the rest of the field.
- 75% vs aggro
- 75% vs control
- 45-50% vs combo
Adding Tidehollow would result in this
- 45-50% vs aggro
- 55-60% vs control
- 75% vs combo
I just don't know if adding Tidehollow to smooth out game 1 vs combo is worth hurting my very favorable matchups. I'll take a 50/50 game 1 against combo when I can side into thoughtseize, wear//tear, rakdos charm, and leyline depending games 2&3. The aggro matchup is something you MUST be able to win game 1 with this deck, as game 2 they're going to know they have to just let go of the brakes and deploy all available resources versus your deck
Modern = RBW Aristocrats (Here's the primer thread I made!)
BGW Endless Renewal ( The primer right here! )
Legacy = UB Stiflenought
Golgari Scavenge
Modern = RBW Aristocrats (Here's the primer thread I made!)
BGW Endless Renewal ( The primer right here! )
Legacy = UB Stiflenought
Modern = RBW Aristocrats (Here's the primer thread I made!)
BGW Endless Renewal ( The primer right here! )
Legacy = UB Stiflenought
Regarding graveyard hate I have not had the displeasure of playing that much against it, but I always pack at least a two-of Wear // Tear or Disenchant in the board. The only real problem cards in my opinion is Rest in Peace and Leyline of the Void as they are replacement effects that shuts down Blood Artist. Relic of Progenitus and Nihil Spellbomb (which a lot of people think are better kinds of hate cards because they don't have to cost you a card) are a bit worse against us. Luckily there isn't a lot of Rest in Peace in the meta right now and it's not that hard to play around Relic of Progenitus and Scavenging Ooze.
How I can think it would go is like this. They bring in a hate card for half of our deck. What if we draw the other half? Instead of drawing lingering souls and blood artists we draw Rabblemaster into Falkenrath/Butcher and punish them. No they put this RIP in play while we just beat them down for 1- 10 damage turn 3 and 4.
If you are sure they have RIP or Leyline in their sideboard then you should probably board out the Blood Artist as that does absolutely nothing if it can't target anything.
Just curious though, why isn't this deck on the radar of more players and what's stopping this deck from being a tier 1/tier 2 deck?
As for the tiers of the deck, Durnam. I feel the main reason is because of how new it is? I mean, this thread I created is only a week old. So it is definitely a new strategy. In due time I think it'll get where it should be
Modern = RBW Aristocrats (Here's the primer thread I made!)
BGW Endless Renewal ( The primer right here! )
Legacy = UB Stiflenought
Golgari Scavenge
@ Durnam, The recent interest is because we have a few new toys to try out in the form of Butcher of the Horde, Rally the Ancestors, and apparently Outpost Siege.
It's not tier 1 because it's probably not good enough. A couple people testing the deck and posting... optimistic... win percentages against the field isn't enough to declare a deck competitive. Posting 3-1 or 4-0 results in Daily Modern Events on MTGO is a much better indicator of a deck's potential. I am a fan of this sort of deck, but it does lack the raw power level of other competitive modern decks. We play individually less powerful cards in the hopes that their synergy makes up for it. But that synergy has prerequisites that need to be met before it comes into fruition.
For example, a blood artist with nothing to sac isn't scary. A sacrifice outlet with nothing to sac isn't scary. But once we get both a sac outlet and a blood artist and some fodder to sacrifice, we're in business. That's why a card like Rally the Ancestors generates buzz. The opponent can thoughtseize your key cards. They can wipe your board. They can counter your blood artist. But if you resolve a Rally, suddenly all the pieces are present and you're in business (assuming we weren't wiped with an Anger of the Gods, or Path to Exile, etc).
Whereas turn 1 Delver/flip or turn 2 Tarmogoyf are brutally efficient and dangerous with no assistance. Dedicated combos can go off with just two cards. EoT Deceiver Exarch + Splinter Twin is a devastating and game ending move. Is it impossible to stop? Or course not. But that level of raw power wins games. We ain't got that level of raw power, so the 'free wins' thing doesn't happen all that much. People do not scoop when you drop your turn 1 Doomed Traveler.
Still, the deck has potential. I think Butcher of the Horde might be an upgrade to Falkenrath Aristocrat (lifelink seems pretty important for this deck), and Falkenrath Aristocrat is a pretty good magic card. And Rally may be just the thing to bring it into the tier 2 world. Jamming lots and lots of games will help figure it out. And as also noted above, the shell is very flexible. You can go aggro, midrange, or control while still maintaining the premise of sacrficing your guys for the win.
Cards to toy around with in different shells, depending on your playstyle include:
Viscera Seer - Best sac outlet for non-aggro version in my opinion.
Athreos, God of Passage - For those focused less on tokens.
Shriekmaw - Great card. Saccing with his trigger on the stack is always good times.
Dark Prophecy - commitment to black makes it tough in the B/W/r shell. But if there is a deck to break this card, some version of Aristocrats is probably it.
Tidehollow Sculler - Already championed further up in the thread by another poster. I agree with him re: it's usefulness.
Teysa, Orzhov Scion - Good card that gets no love. Works particularly nicely with creatures that are both black and white, like the sculler. Might combo with something like...
Bitterblossom - A neverending stream of sacrificial faeries might work.
Damnation I actively want my creatures to die. Might as well take yours along with them. An individually strong card that increases the overall power level of the deck. Less good in focused aggro decks, of course.
Pawn of Ulamog - Maybe I've had too many beers, but it seems like this could be good in some version of the deck.
Modern = RBW Aristocrats (Here's the primer thread I made!)
BGW Endless Renewal ( The primer right here! )
Legacy = UB Stiflenought
Sadly, I suspect a playset of Inquisition and/or Thoughtseize may end up being necessary to really compete. Not particularly surprising I guess, given the power level of the cards and the speed of the format. And I suppose seeing Lightning Bolt in a winning list is something to be expected as well. Tragic Slip is a sweet one, though, right out of the old standard aristocrats deck.
I wonder if the zombie aggro package is faster on average than the more goblin-esque versions that have been posted. By running a group of critters that recur themselves, he's lessened the need for something like Rally the Ancestors.
Interesting stuff.
*Edit* Soul Sisters seems like a tougher match-up unless you have sweepers.
Modern = RBW Aristocrats (Here's the primer thread I made!)
BGW Endless Renewal ( The primer right here! )
Legacy = UB Stiflenought
Theres a list Sam Black posted last year that I used as the starting point for my junk list (adding rally of course) and so far its been testing very well. The deck is very explosive. The only problem postboard is that you are more weak to grave-hate but i feel this is mostly covered by the fact that you can run both Qasali Pridemage and Abrupt Decay out of the board.
I am curious as to why no one has mentioned using Hide // Seek as a viable option to handle enchantments. On top of being able to tuck an enchantment or artifact, you can hurt many of the decks in the Modern format by grabbing an important deck piece proactively - both at instant speed.
Modern = RBW Aristocrats (Here's the primer thread I made!)
BGW Endless Renewal ( The primer right here! )
Legacy = UB Stiflenought