I never thought of brewing it with Mesmeric Orb though, this idea is interesting. I brewed the infinite untaps with Judge of Currents and Wake Thrasher.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
I never thought of brewing it with Mesmeric Orb though, this idea is interesting. I brewed the infinite untaps with Judge of Currents and Wake Thrasher.
On their own they don't do much is really the problem. It's going to be hit by summoning sickness where as Fatestitcher or unbender Tine have haste, and Grand Architect can just cast all of the other cards in the deck. I just think it'd be too slow and susceptible to everything in modern. Can't be cheated out or combo on the turn played which makes it worse than the other options.
If you are committing to the Grand Architect + Pili-Pala build, may I suggest:
-all Horsemen
-Blasting Station
-Skill Borrower
-other chaff
+1 Devil's Play
+good cards
Once you've assembled Grand Architect + Pili-Pala, you've basically already won the game (infinite mana). You just need a win condition with that mana, and milling into Devil's Play will do it much of the time. Hardcasting Banefire (without even needing an Orb to mill) will do it even more.
I get the desire to make 4 Horsemen work in Modern. I loved that Legacy deck. But it seems weird enabling the Horsemen deck by first assembling ANOTHER already "I win" infinite combo. I mean, at that point you might as well play Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker + Deceiver Exarch + Sage's Row Denizen as your mill engine and/or sacrifice Exarch token copies to Blasting Station.
Especially when the main combo is a rules violation and the secondary combos (e.g. Blasting Station/Skill Borrower already in play) are fragile 4-card combos...
If you are committing to the Grand Architect + Pili-Pala build, may I suggest:
-all Horsemen
-Blasting Station
-Skill Borrower
-other chaff
+1 Devil's Play
+good cards
Once you've assembled Grand Architect + Pili-Pala, you've basically already won the game (infinite mana). You just need a win condition with that mana, and milling into Devil's Play will do it much of the time. Hardcasting Banefire (without even needing an Orb to mill) will do it even more.
I get the desire to make 4 Horsemen work in Modern. I loved that Legacy deck. But it seems weird enabling the Horsemen deck by first assembling ANOTHER already "I win" infinite combo. I mean, at that point you might as well play Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker + Deceiver Exarch + Sage's Row Denizen as your mill engine and/or sacrifice Exarch token copies to Blasting Station.
Especially when the main combo is a rules violation and the secondary combos (e.g. Blasting Station/Skill Borrower already in play) are fragile 4-card combos...
The point of the deck is to assemble a untap combo, and Grand Architect is only the engine that helps pump out the cards easier. Mesmeric Orb, Spellskite, Skill Borrower, Unbender Time, etc... All get thrown into play much easier with GA. The problem with Pili-Pala is that having to untap with such a fragile creature is difficult unless you have a (or more) Spellskite out. This is why there is no GA + Pili-Pala deck in modern in the first place and that it's better to have several different fragile routes to get the combo online rather than just one fragile one.
And the problem with slow play is resolved with Unburial Rites and Skill Borrower. That way you always have access to a sac outlet and the nsrcomebas can always come into play before being sacced and shuffled back in thanks to Emmy, even in response to his trigger.
Basically the deck IS foolproof, just really really hard to get the combo online without disruption. Maybe Silence is what it needs...
I was just beginning round 6 of Grand Prix Detroit this past weekend, when I hear the guy to my left say, "I begin the game with Leyline of Singularity in play." Needless to say, that got the attention of myself and my opponent, who would continue to look over whenever we were shuffling or between games.
He was using Leyline with Honor-Worn Shaku, which can then infinitely tap-untap itself to mill with Mesmeric Orb. Whenever a Narcomoeba gets milled, it comes into play and (being legendary) can net 1 mana with the Shaku. Further Narcomoebas legend-rule themselves out, so they return to the graveyard and then back into the library with the next Emrakul trigger. The win-con is Increasing Confusion (which he said was aptly-named, given most opponents' unfamiliarity with Four Horsemen in Legacy), but occasionally casting Emrakul can get the job done too.
He won that round, putting him at 3-3. His buddy was also on the deck and was its designer, and he said it gets around the "slow play" issue by adding more mana to the pool or somesuch. Apparently they mulligan very aggressively for the Leyline with the help of Serum Powder.
All in all, it requires a lot of pieces and is likely rather inconsistent, but I thought it was really cool.
I was just beginning round 6 of Grand Prix Detroit this past weekend, when I hear the guy to my left say, "I begin the game with Leyline of Singularity in play." Needless to say, that got the attention of myself and my opponent, who would continue to look over whenever we were shuffling or between games.
He was using Leyline with Honor-Worn Shaku, which can then infinitely tap-untap itself to mill with Mesmeric Orb. Whenever a Narcomoeba gets milled, it comes into play and (being legendary) can net 1 mana with the Shaku. Further Narcomoebas legend-rule themselves out, so they return to the graveyard and then back into the library with the next Emrakul trigger. The win-con is Increasing Confusion (which he said was aptly-named, given most opponents' unfamiliarity with Four Horsemen in Legacy), but occasionally casting Emrakul can get the job done too.
He won that round, putting him at 3-3. His buddy was also on the deck and was its designer, and he said it gets around the "slow play" issue by adding more mana to the pool or somesuch. Apparently they mulligan very aggressively for the Leyline with the help of Serum Powder.
All in all, it requires a lot of pieces and is likely rather inconsistent, but I thought it was really cool.
Wow that's a rally sweet idea!! I'll have to think more about it and see if I can come up with any lists myself. Thanks for the info.
Spellskite for protecting combo pieces (and blocking, I suppose). Minamo and Oboro for extra legendary permanents that can untap Honor-Worn Shaku (perhaps in response to disruption). Gemstone Caverns for occasional acceleration (with little impact on an otherwise mono-blue manabase).
Spellskite for protecting combo pieces (and blocking, I suppose). Minamo and Oboro for extra legendary permanents that can untap Honor-Worn Shaku (perhaps in response to disruption). Gemstone Caverns for occasional acceleration (with little impact on an otherwise mono-blue manabase).
Sorry for the slow reply and thanks for the card heads-ups! I'll see if I can put something together to mimic the list/come up with my own. Right now I have narrowed on using the Grand Architect route since it is the most consistent and versatile, but this is a great alternative.
With Forbidden Orchard you are stuck only using it on each Narcomoeba trigger, aka 4 triggers per deck cycle. Are you planning on using any Intruder Alarm untap triggers from Narcomoebas to then untap the land with a Fatestitcher or something similar? That's what I'm getting from your deck. It seems like a lot of pieces however, where you may draw 2 of one combo, and 2 of another, and not have the correct third piece.
He was using Leyline with Honor-Worn Shaku, which can then infinitely tap-untap itself to mill with Mesmeric Orb. Whenever a Narcomoeba gets milled, it comes into play and (being legendary) can net 1 mana with the Shaku. Further Narcomoebas legend-rule themselves out, so they return to the graveyard and then back into the library with the next Emrakul trigger. The win-con is Increasing Confusion.
The deck can regularly kill on turn 4/5 against a non-interactive deck, turn 2 in magical wonderland, turn 3 quite often. Probably dead against any counterspell.
Looking at Freed from the Real again it began be thinking about this deck. I had previously looked at UG lists that used Fatestitcher, Kiora's Follower, and Second Wind as ways to get an infinite untap chain going. (**note this doesn't get around the slow play rule because you aren't adding mana to your pool**). Here is my list from the OP back in Jan 2015:
This seems to give some new dimensions to the idea so I'll look into it more.
On the flip side I have been toying around with the Honor-Worn Shaku idea a lot since it seems to be the most viable idea out of the lot. Gives a T3 kill at the earliest and gets around slow play rules. It just needs to be streamlined more and figured out the optimal way to build it. I've thought about adding green to it to give Ancient Stirrings and access to some other cards, which is where the Sylvan Caryatid idea is coming from. Perhaps just sticking with monoblue and jamming in some Fatestitchers is the best though. I can only test so much as one person.
DAY LATER EDIT: Here is the list I was grinding a bunch of (goldfish) games with:
Some notable things about the deck: It is totally capable of comboing off fast, and Serum Powder makes it surprisingly consistent. Problems that I have encountered are accidentally drawing Emrakul and having no way to discard it. If you can't make 15 in one loop of your deck then you are dead. Drawing Increasing Confusion is less of an issue, you will just need to have a spare UU available to keep going.
Because of this problem I looked to red as a way to discard cards. It gives access to Faithless Looting which not only lets us discard cards but it will let us draw cards that are in our deck.... say Emmy. When you think about it you can almost technically loop until Emmy is one of the last two cards in your deck, then draw him with the flashback on Lootings. Speaking of flashback, Think Twice as a 1-of may be a good choice too. I'll keep messing around with the list and see what comes up.
I'm not 100% sure that it works, but I may have found a way to give to the list with Leyline of Singularity that interactive twist that can make this deck win after game 1.
The card is Sword of the Meek.
With Narcomoeba being played on the battlefield it returns also on the battlefield attacched to it, but we can tap it also to have 1 mana more with the shaku.
If more Swords enter the battlefield at the same time the other ones die, so we should use the stack to tap the first sword right after entering the battlefield to untap the shaku and get 1 mana, then we make the second sword enter the battlefield sacrifice the first one and go on. We can have up to 4 additional mana each Narcomoeba we have. If slow play was still a problem...
But the real interesting thing is that were can actually have maybe 1 copy of Thopter Foundry in the mainboard and some other (2 or 3) in the side, so we can rearrange our plans to a more control deck If needed, maybe also without the Leylines.
I really like the 4 horsemen way and I think that can be one of the funniest decks in modern with a tuned brew.
I'm not 100% sure that it works, but I may have found a way to give to the list with Leyline of Singularity that interactive twist that can make this deck win after game 1.
The card is Sword of the Meek.
With Narcomoeba being played on the battlefield it returns also on the battlefield attacched to it, but we can tap it also to have 1 mana more with the shaku.
If more Swords enter the battlefield at the same time the other ones die, so we should use the stack to tap the first sword right after entering the battlefield to untap the shaku and get 1 mana, then we make the second sword enter the battlefield sacrifice the first one and go on. We can have up to 4 additional mana each Narcomoeba we have. If slow play was still a problem...
But the real interesting thing is that were can actually have maybe 1 copy of Thopter Foundry in the mainboard and some other (2 or 3) in the side, so we can rearrange our plans to a more control deck If needed, maybe also without the Leylines.
I really like the 4 horsemen way and I think that can be one of the funniest decks in modern with a tuned brew.
Interesting idea of using the legend rule as a sac outlet. It would for sure create some redundancy in the deck but I think there are still a lot of problems with it:
1. With the Narcomoeba trick you can always keep one untapped in play in case you hit Emmy before another Narcomoeba. That means that you always have 3 in the deck to try and hit. I haven't done the math but you have to ask yourself if adding "dead" cards to your deck is better than having cards that directly help the gameplan.
2. Does Sword of the Meek check the P/T on resolution of its trigger? If so the second one won't enter the battlefield because the first will have made the Narcomoeba a 2/3. I'll have to check this.
3. The transitional plan of using Thopter Foundry is good because it can gain us "infinite" life yes, but at the same time it uses the graveyard and this deck is a graveyard combo deck. If anyone is bringing in hate for games 2 or 3 like Grafdigger's Cage or Rest in Peace then putting in more graveyard interaction is the last thing we want to do.
I think it's a good idea but something would have to be worked out. Perhaps some hybrid of my Grand Architect idea could be worked out where the main threats are GA or Thopter Sword (Sadly they don't work together). It attacks from a few different angles which usually is the start to a good deck.
Yeah, you sure did analyze it well.
I agree with the "dead card issue" of point 1 and I was thinking to some changes to the original list you posted.
Point 2: it checks the p/t when narcomoeba enters the battlefield so it returning trigger will go on the stack before it becomes a 2/3 and of we have multiples swords they will activate...I'm quite sure.
Point 3: you are definetly right about the graveyard hate problem, I honestly didn't think about it well, I was just thinking to the interactions between the foundry and our other artifacts.
I will try and goldfish something in this direction and write down some thoughts. I also think that the dream of us all is that of having A Singularity Architect brew...
EDIT: I forgot to mention, and I don't if you realized it, that with Leyline and shaku in play we don't need Mesmeric Orb If we have the thopter Meek engine. We can just go infinite life and mana...
Yeah, you sure did analyze it well.
I agree with the "dead card issue" of point 1 and I was thinking to some changes to the original list you posted.
Point 2: it checks the p/t when narcomoeba enters the battlefield so it returning trigger will go on the stack before it becomes a 2/3 and of we have multiples swords they will activate...I'm quite sure.
Point 3: you are definetly right about the graveyard hate problem, I honestly didn't think about it well, I was just thinking to the interactions between the foundry and our other artifacts.
I will try and goldfish something in this direction and write down some thoughts. I also think that the dream of us all is that of having A Singularity Architect brew...
EDIT: I forgot to mention, and I don't if you realized it, that with Leyline and shaku in play we don't need Mesmeric Orb If we have the thopter Meek engine. We can just go infinite life and mana...
I have been looking at Exhaustion and Gigadrowse as ways to stall before dropping a Honor-Worn Shaku. It has worked for Taking Turns decks in the past so why not here?
I'll try it out a bit more. I like Thoptor Sword, but having a backup plan is always good. Another option if we go the Grand Architect route is to include Unbender Tine as it only costs WU with an Architect out. This also puts us in colours for Thopter Foundry giving us a strong graveyard based plan of attack and an engine that isn't reliant on the graveyard. White opens up some good sideboard cards too.
I'll try to come up with a few lists and see what is working the best.
Hi all, I find the concept of porting Horsemen to Modern to be really interesting and I really applaud the effort.
I tried goldfishing the list Torpf posted Nov9 (just a couple posts up) and found it to be rather interesting, but I wonder if focusing even heavier on an artifact theme (rather than the Serum Visions/Sleight of Hand/Remand plan) might help streamline things. I've pulled a few of those spells out for a couple Glint-Nest Cranes (for blockers and digging) and a playset of Mox Opals (while trimming slightly the land count). I've also put in a few more 1-of and 2-of of things I wanted to test (things like Codex Shredder and Altar of the Brood).
What I found was that although Altar of the Brood didn't help much in terms of milling my opponent (I put it in as a "maybe this changes the boardstate?" addition) it was useful enough in bringing Mox Opal online and also it helped me up my number of unique nonland permanents (which helped Shaku produce a bigger one-turn burst of mana as needed).
Codex Shredder is something I'll probably keep around, and in decent number (3x maybe?). The cmc is easy, but most importantly I found the second ability to be really useful for bringing key cards into hand (even more so than Academy Ruins) since Shaku+Leyline lets me bin the entire library to choose exactly what I want/need. Playing on Xmage it was really slow looping to get enough mana to flashback Increasing Confusion for a 40+ card library kill, so I think I'll probably try switching into any other wincon (looking at you Thopter Foundry)
tl;dr - Diversify unique artifacts to help raise Shaku's maximum per-untap-phase mana potential? Codex Shredder to "tutor" Thopter Foundry as an endgame?
I tried goldfishing Shaku lists, but I still don't know how this version avoids slow play without a way to force Increasing Confusion into your hand (e.g. Increasing Confusion already in hand, untapped Buried Ruin in play to retrieve Codex Shredder to retrieve Increasing Confusion). Assuming you mill Emrakul first every single time, you'll never be able to cast a milled Increasing Confusion (because, unluckily, it's a sorcery). You can mill your entire deck every loop and get infinite mana that way, but the moment that the Emrakul shuffle trigger goes on the stack, you can't cast a milled Increasing Confusion.
Anyone figured out how the Shaku version dodges slow play without needing an effective fourth combo piece?
Hi all, I find the concept of porting Horsemen to Modern to be really interesting and I really applaud the effort.
I tried goldfishing the list Torpf posted Nov9 (just a couple posts up) and found it to be rather interesting, but I wonder if focusing even heavier on an artifact theme (rather than the Serum Visions/Sleight of Hand/Remand plan) might help streamline things. I've pulled a few of those spells out for a couple Glint-Nest Cranes (for blockers and digging) and a playset of Mox Opals (while trimming slightly the land count). I've also put in a few more 1-of and 2-of of things I wanted to test (things like Codex Shredder and Altar of the Brood).
What I found was that although Altar of the Brood didn't help much in terms of milling my opponent (I put it in as a "maybe this changes the boardstate?" addition) it was useful enough in bringing Mox Opal online and also it helped me up my number of unique nonland permanents (which helped Shaku produce a bigger one-turn burst of mana as needed).
Codex Shredder is something I'll probably keep around, and in decent number (3x maybe?). The cmc is easy, but most importantly I found the second ability to be really useful for bringing key cards into hand (even more so than Academy Ruins) since Shaku+Leyline lets me bin the entire library to choose exactly what I want/need. Playing on Xmage it was really slow looping to get enough mana to flashback Increasing Confusion for a 40+ card library kill, so I think I'll probably try switching into any other wincon (looking at you Thopter Foundry)
tl;dr - Diversify unique artifacts to help raise Shaku's maximum per-untap-phase mana potential? Codex Shredder to "tutor" Thopter Foundry as an endgame?
Glad you've picked up the deck! I like your idea to lean more on the artifact theme rather than blue cantrips and card selection. If I were to do that I'd look into super cheap cards like Welding Jar, Mishra's Bauble, Darksteel Citadel, and Mox Opal to bring it all together. Your mention of using various artifacts to ensure more tapping is intriguing for sure; I'll scour the modern cardpool again to see what is out there. Going the artifact route also opens up an additional Legendary land in the form of Inventors Fair which is great on its own. This gives access to 5-7 legendary permanents just in the land slot alone. Will get back soon with results on stuff but with exams for the next week and a bit it may be harder.
I tried goldfishing Shaku lists, but I still don't know how this version avoids slow play without a way to force Increasing Confusion into your hand (e.g. Increasing Confusion already in hand, untapped Buried Ruin in play to retrieve Codex Shredder to retrieve Increasing Confusion). Assuming you mill Emrakul first every single time, you'll never be able to cast a milled Increasing Confusion (because, unluckily, it's a sorcery). You can mill your entire deck every loop and get infinite mana that way, but the moment that the Emrakul shuffle trigger goes on the stack, you can't cast a milled Increasing Confusion.
Anyone figured out how the Shaku version dodges slow play without needing an effective fourth combo piece?
Glad you brought this up because I was looking into the rules more yesterday. From playing it myself, and understanding the rules as best I can and from other judges:
- You cannot repeat an "indeterminable loop" because it will constitute as slow play. This is because:
- board state doesn't change
- you can't guarantee that you will be able to repeat the loop each time
What I am suggesting is that we have 'fail safes' to keep the milling going in the event we hit a premature Emrakul. By getting a Narcomoeba into play you will have changed the boardstate the first time, so that is the first "actually you can't call slow play". Now keep the Narcomoeba untapped until you mill Emrakul. With Emmy's trigger on the stack you can tap the Narcomoeba to untap Honor-Worn Shaku and keep the combo going until you hit a new Narcomoeba.
At this point you are guaranteed to not hit Emmy so you can go through your entire deck and hit the remaining 3 Narcomoebas and tapping 2 of them along the way for an additional 2 mana. If you hit multiple Narcomoebas before Emmy then you are also guaranteed N-1 mana where N = The number of Narcomoebas you flip over. By adding mana to your pool you are technically working towards something so you can tell the judge "I am trying to float 30 mana".
Normally this isn't good enough on its own to say, but because you can always have an untapped Narcomoeba you should be fine to keep the milling going. If you don't that is where the rest of the deck comes in. You are playing 5-7 legendary lands, as well as have at least a Leyline of Singularity and Mesmeric Orb in play giving you two panic button untaps. Realistically you will probably have more permanents on the battlefield (especially if it moves to an artifact version) so there should be no problem getting around an early Emmy flip.
Thopter Sword would be a nice bonus being able to juggle thopter tokens and Swords to change up the boardstate. I am still weary of having so much graveyard-centric and artifacts in the same deck. We got stonewalled by both Rest in Peace and Stony Silence.
Note this does not stop you from flipping Emmy in your first 15 cards like 3 times in a row. Perhaps you end with no win, but for now it is pretty consistent when gets going. We'll see if Aether Revolt gives the deck anything to push it towards an artifact heavy shell. I also wonder if Grand Architect can slot in with Glint-Nest Crane.
So I guess in my long convoluted answer... We can change the boardstate on each loop by the position of our Narcomoeba and the amount of colourless mana in our manapool. Beyond that there isn't a ton that can be done without developing the deck further. If the opponent has no removal you can demonstrate the ability to get past an Emrakul trigger and generate 3 on each loop through your deck, and I'd have to go ask a judge right now if that is good enough to consider it as a loop.
EDIT: Nevermind I though that this one was more similar to the legacy version than I thought. Then I noticed you had to use Gaia's
Let me know if this is possible...
1)Right before you combo off count the number of cards in hand, grave, and in play. Subtract from 60 to find # of cards in deck. declare that you will mill that exact number.
2)Dump your deck into grave
3)Now this is the tricky part: is it possible to stack the triggers where the narcos come into play before the Emmy trigger? Or does it depend on the order they hit the grave or does the order not matter?
Cause if you can stack the triggers, then... I fail to see how they can call slow play.
It wouldn't take a long time at all to do the combo if you could the above procedure. You would just have to shuffle five times at most which is annoying but wont take THAT long.
EDIT: Nevermind I though that this one was more similar to the legacy version than I thought. Then I noticed you had to use Gaia's
Let me know if this is possible...
1)Right before you combo off count the number of cards in hand, grave, and in play. Subtract from 60 to find # of cards in deck. declare that you will mill that exact number.
2)Dump your deck into grave
3)Now this is the tricky part: is it possible to stack the triggers where the narcos come into play before the Emmy trigger? Or does it depend on the order they hit the grave or does the order not matter?
Cause if you can stack the triggers, then... I fail to see how they can call slow play.
It wouldn't take a long time at all to do the combo if you could the above procedure. You would just have to shuffle five times at most which is annoying but wont take THAT long.
Because it is possible to hit Emmy first an arbitrary amount of times you can't just do that. If you already have a narcomeboa in play then it has some merit because you can always untap with the Emmy trigger on the stack. So doing the loop once then having some shortcut may work. I'll ask a judge and see.
I mean it all hinges on the ability to stack the "goes to grave, do X" triggers. If you can stack the triggers then it shouldn't matter if Emmy is on the top, bottom, or anywhere in between. But I am not certain it is possible to stack the triggers
I mean it all hinges on the ability to stack the "goes to grave, do X" triggers. If you can stack the triggers then it shouldn't matter if Emmy is on the top, bottom, or anywhere in between. But I am not certain it is possible to stack the triggers
First off, I just posted in the old legacy forum for this deck, and have some stuff in there.
But no, it's not possible, since each card getting milled is one at a time by a separate trigger so the triggers go on the stack one at a time, not simultaneously.
Is using crown of convergence and the pilli palla-grand architect combo to fragile? Since we intend to win on that turn couldn't we use pact of negation as protection?
*edit: also I saw mention of spellskite, that would help two and muddle the mixture fetches it and crown.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Commander: UBG Tasigur, the lab enabler UR Planeswalker Control UBRW Breya's personal box of combos BRW Vampire beats, by Dre 1 Karn, where all lands are command towers UBR Inalla's Venser lock UBRGW Atog Atog contraption tribal WUB Xur's second chance UGW Derivi, bird tribal R Brother's Yamazaki BRG Prosh, the scourge of multiplayer GW Capt. Sisay's Deck Dumping Service UB All Your Spells do Belong to Me UG Tapioca Pearl BG Meren's grinder
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Paradise Mantle + Puresight Merrow.
I never thought of brewing it with Mesmeric Orb though, this idea is interesting. I brewed the infinite untaps with Judge of Currents and Wake Thrasher.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
-all Horsemen
-Blasting Station
-Skill Borrower
-other chaff
+1 Devil's Play
+good cards
Once you've assembled Grand Architect + Pili-Pala, you've basically already won the game (infinite mana). You just need a win condition with that mana, and milling into Devil's Play will do it much of the time. Hardcasting Banefire (without even needing an Orb to mill) will do it even more.
I get the desire to make 4 Horsemen work in Modern. I loved that Legacy deck. But it seems weird enabling the Horsemen deck by first assembling ANOTHER already "I win" infinite combo. I mean, at that point you might as well play Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker + Deceiver Exarch + Sage's Row Denizen as your mill engine and/or sacrifice Exarch token copies to Blasting Station.
Especially when the main combo is a rules violation and the secondary combos (e.g. Blasting Station/Skill Borrower already in play) are fragile 4-card combos...
And the problem with slow play is resolved with Unburial Rites and Skill Borrower. That way you always have access to a sac outlet and the nsrcomebas can always come into play before being sacced and shuffled back in thanks to Emmy, even in response to his trigger.
Basically the deck IS foolproof, just really really hard to get the combo online without disruption. Maybe Silence is what it needs...
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
He was using Leyline with Honor-Worn Shaku, which can then infinitely tap-untap itself to mill with Mesmeric Orb. Whenever a Narcomoeba gets milled, it comes into play and (being legendary) can net 1 mana with the Shaku. Further Narcomoebas legend-rule themselves out, so they return to the graveyard and then back into the library with the next Emrakul trigger. The win-con is Increasing Confusion (which he said was aptly-named, given most opponents' unfamiliarity with Four Horsemen in Legacy), but occasionally casting Emrakul can get the job done too.
He won that round, putting him at 3-3. His buddy was also on the deck and was its designer, and he said it gets around the "slow play" issue by adding more mana to the pool or somesuch. Apparently they mulligan very aggressively for the Leyline with the help of Serum Powder.
All in all, it requires a lot of pieces and is likely rather inconsistent, but I thought it was really cool.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
Spellskite for protecting combo pieces (and blocking, I suppose).
Minamo and Oboro for extra legendary permanents that can untap Honor-Worn Shaku (perhaps in response to disruption).
Gemstone Caverns for occasional acceleration (with little impact on an otherwise mono-blue manabase).
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
Looking at Freed from the Real again it began be thinking about this deck. I had previously looked at UG lists that used Fatestitcher, Kiora's Follower, and Second Wind as ways to get an infinite untap chain going. (**note this doesn't get around the slow play rule because you aren't adding mana to your pool**). Here is my list from the OP back in Jan 2015:
4 Fatestitcher
2 Kiora's Follower
4 Second Wind
Combo Pieces
4 Skill Borrower
3 Narcomoeba
1 Blasting Station
4 Mesmeric Orb
1 Gaea's Blessing
4 Serum Visions
4 Faithless Looting
3 Izzet Charm
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Mana Leak
Lands
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Steam Vents
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Cascade Bluffs
3 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
This seems to give some new dimensions to the idea so I'll look into it more.
On the flip side I have been toying around with the Honor-Worn Shaku idea a lot since it seems to be the most viable idea out of the lot. Gives a T3 kill at the earliest and gets around slow play rules. It just needs to be streamlined more and figured out the optimal way to build it. I've thought about adding green to it to give Ancient Stirrings and access to some other cards, which is where the Sylvan Caryatid idea is coming from. Perhaps just sticking with monoblue and jamming in some Fatestitchers is the best though. I can only test so much as one person.
DAY LATER EDIT: Here is the list I was grinding a bunch of (goldfish) games with:
4 Mesmeric Orb
4 Honor-Worn Shaku
4 Leyline of Singularity
4 Narcomoeba
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Increasing Confusion
4 Serum Powder
4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand
1 Fabricate
Don't Die
3 Spellskite
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Remand
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
1 Academy Ruins
2 Gemstone Caverns
4 Flooded Strand
11 Island
Some notable things about the deck: It is totally capable of comboing off fast, and Serum Powder makes it surprisingly consistent. Problems that I have encountered are accidentally drawing Emrakul and having no way to discard it. If you can't make 15 in one loop of your deck then you are dead. Drawing Increasing Confusion is less of an issue, you will just need to have a spare UU available to keep going.
Because of this problem I looked to red as a way to discard cards. It gives access to Faithless Looting which not only lets us discard cards but it will let us draw cards that are in our deck.... say Emmy. When you think about it you can almost technically loop until Emmy is one of the last two cards in your deck, then draw him with the flashback on Lootings. Speaking of flashback, Think Twice as a 1-of may be a good choice too. I'll keep messing around with the list and see what comes up.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
The card is Sword of the Meek.
With Narcomoeba being played on the battlefield it returns also on the battlefield attacched to it, but we can tap it also to have 1 mana more with the shaku.
If more Swords enter the battlefield at the same time the other ones die, so we should use the stack to tap the first sword right after entering the battlefield to untap the shaku and get 1 mana, then we make the second sword enter the battlefield sacrifice the first one and go on. We can have up to 4 additional mana each Narcomoeba we have. If slow play was still a problem...
But the real interesting thing is that were can actually have maybe 1 copy of Thopter Foundry in the mainboard and some other (2 or 3) in the side, so we can rearrange our plans to a more control deck If needed, maybe also without the Leylines.
I really like the 4 horsemen way and I think that can be one of the funniest decks in modern with a tuned brew.
1. With the Narcomoeba trick you can always keep one untapped in play in case you hit Emmy before another Narcomoeba. That means that you always have 3 in the deck to try and hit. I haven't done the math but you have to ask yourself if adding "dead" cards to your deck is better than having cards that directly help the gameplan.
2. Does Sword of the Meek check the P/T on resolution of its trigger? If so the second one won't enter the battlefield because the first will have made the Narcomoeba a 2/3. I'll have to check this.
3. The transitional plan of using Thopter Foundry is good because it can gain us "infinite" life yes, but at the same time it uses the graveyard and this deck is a graveyard combo deck. If anyone is bringing in hate for games 2 or 3 like Grafdigger's Cage or Rest in Peace then putting in more graveyard interaction is the last thing we want to do.
I think it's a good idea but something would have to be worked out. Perhaps some hybrid of my Grand Architect idea could be worked out where the main threats are GA or Thopter Sword (Sadly they don't work together). It attacks from a few different angles which usually is the start to a good deck.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
I agree with the "dead card issue" of point 1 and I was thinking to some changes to the original list you posted.
Point 2: it checks the p/t when narcomoeba enters the battlefield so it returning trigger will go on the stack before it becomes a 2/3 and of we have multiples swords they will activate...I'm quite sure.
Point 3: you are definetly right about the graveyard hate problem, I honestly didn't think about it well, I was just thinking to the interactions between the foundry and our other artifacts.
I will try and goldfish something in this direction and write down some thoughts. I also think that the dream of us all is that of having A Singularity Architect brew...
EDIT: I forgot to mention, and I don't if you realized it, that with Leyline and shaku in play we don't need Mesmeric Orb If we have the thopter Meek engine. We can just go infinite life and mana...
I'll try it out a bit more. I like Thoptor Sword, but having a backup plan is always good. Another option if we go the Grand Architect route is to include Unbender Tine as it only costs WU with an Architect out. This also puts us in colours for Thopter Foundry giving us a strong graveyard based plan of attack and an engine that isn't reliant on the graveyard. White opens up some good sideboard cards too.
I'll try to come up with a few lists and see what is working the best.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
I tried goldfishing the list Torpf posted Nov9 (just a couple posts up) and found it to be rather interesting, but I wonder if focusing even heavier on an artifact theme (rather than the Serum Visions/Sleight of Hand/Remand plan) might help streamline things. I've pulled a few of those spells out for a couple Glint-Nest Cranes (for blockers and digging) and a playset of Mox Opals (while trimming slightly the land count). I've also put in a few more 1-of and 2-of of things I wanted to test (things like Codex Shredder and Altar of the Brood).
What I found was that although Altar of the Brood didn't help much in terms of milling my opponent (I put it in as a "maybe this changes the boardstate?" addition) it was useful enough in bringing Mox Opal online and also it helped me up my number of unique nonland permanents (which helped Shaku produce a bigger one-turn burst of mana as needed).
Codex Shredder is something I'll probably keep around, and in decent number (3x maybe?). The cmc is easy, but most importantly I found the second ability to be really useful for bringing key cards into hand (even more so than Academy Ruins) since Shaku+Leyline lets me bin the entire library to choose exactly what I want/need. Playing on Xmage it was really slow looping to get enough mana to flashback Increasing Confusion for a 40+ card library kill, so I think I'll probably try switching into any other wincon (looking at you Thopter Foundry)
tl;dr - Diversify unique artifacts to help raise Shaku's maximum per-untap-phase mana potential? Codex Shredder to "tutor" Thopter Foundry as an endgame?
Anyone figured out how the Shaku version dodges slow play without needing an effective fourth combo piece?
Glad you brought this up because I was looking into the rules more yesterday. From playing it myself, and understanding the rules as best I can and from other judges:
- You cannot repeat an "indeterminable loop" because it will constitute as slow play. This is because:
- board state doesn't change
- you can't guarantee that you will be able to repeat the loop each time
What I am suggesting is that we have 'fail safes' to keep the milling going in the event we hit a premature Emrakul. By getting a Narcomoeba into play you will have changed the boardstate the first time, so that is the first "actually you can't call slow play". Now keep the Narcomoeba untapped until you mill Emrakul. With Emmy's trigger on the stack you can tap the Narcomoeba to untap Honor-Worn Shaku and keep the combo going until you hit a new Narcomoeba.
At this point you are guaranteed to not hit Emmy so you can go through your entire deck and hit the remaining 3 Narcomoebas and tapping 2 of them along the way for an additional 2 mana. If you hit multiple Narcomoebas before Emmy then you are also guaranteed N-1 mana where N = The number of Narcomoebas you flip over. By adding mana to your pool you are technically working towards something so you can tell the judge "I am trying to float 30 mana".
Normally this isn't good enough on its own to say, but because you can always have an untapped Narcomoeba you should be fine to keep the milling going. If you don't that is where the rest of the deck comes in. You are playing 5-7 legendary lands, as well as have at least a Leyline of Singularity and Mesmeric Orb in play giving you two panic button untaps. Realistically you will probably have more permanents on the battlefield (especially if it moves to an artifact version) so there should be no problem getting around an early Emmy flip.
Thopter Sword would be a nice bonus being able to juggle thopter tokens and Swords to change up the boardstate. I am still weary of having so much graveyard-centric and artifacts in the same deck. We got stonewalled by both Rest in Peace and Stony Silence.
Note this does not stop you from flipping Emmy in your first 15 cards like 3 times in a row. Perhaps you end with no win, but for now it is pretty consistent when gets going. We'll see if Aether Revolt gives the deck anything to push it towards an artifact heavy shell. I also wonder if Grand Architect can slot in with Glint-Nest Crane.
So I guess in my long convoluted answer... We can change the boardstate on each loop by the position of our Narcomoeba and the amount of colourless mana in our manapool. Beyond that there isn't a ton that can be done without developing the deck further. If the opponent has no removal you can demonstrate the ability to get past an Emrakul trigger and generate 3 on each loop through your deck, and I'd have to go ask a judge right now if that is good enough to consider it as a loop.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
Let me know if this is possible...
1)Right before you combo off count the number of cards in hand, grave, and in play. Subtract from 60 to find # of cards in deck. declare that you will mill that exact number.
2)Dump your deck into grave
3)Now this is the tricky part: is it possible to stack the triggers where the narcos come into play before the Emmy trigger? Or does it depend on the order they hit the grave or does the order not matter?
Cause if you can stack the triggers, then... I fail to see how they can call slow play.
It wouldn't take a long time at all to do the combo if you could the above procedure. You would just have to shuffle five times at most which is annoying but wont take THAT long.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
First off, I just posted in the old legacy forum for this deck, and have some stuff in there.
But no, it's not possible, since each card getting milled is one at a time by a separate trigger so the triggers go on the stack one at a time, not simultaneously.
*edit: also I saw mention of spellskite, that would help two and muddle the mixture fetches it and crown.
UBG Tasigur, the lab enabler UR Planeswalker Control
UBRW Breya's personal box of combos BRW Vampire beats, by Dre
1 Karn, where all lands are command towers UBR Inalla's Venser lock
UBRGW Atog Atog contraption tribal WUB Xur's second chance
UGW Derivi, bird tribal R Brother's Yamazaki
BRG Prosh, the scourge of multiplayer GW Capt. Sisay's Deck Dumping Service
UB All Your Spells do Belong to Me UG Tapioca Pearl
BG Meren's grinder