I'm sorry to chime in, but there is already /r/ModernLoam/ and of course /r/ModernMagic/
The reason I bring this up is that usually is better to group up instead of splitting the community. Cheers!
No worries - it's good to have feedback!
As I said in the previous post though, we have very different discussions, because almost all posts there are for assault loam (edit: or at least for very different varieties), which is very different (it's like calling spirits humans due to Thalias, Images and Reflectors - cards just happen to overlap - it's the same reason this is a different forum thread). It's the same with r/ModernMagic; I'd personally not want to have to scroll & filter through numerous unrelated posts to find the latest ideas for the particular archetype and I imagine this sentiment is shared by a lot of people that want a meaningful discussion rather than discussing trends. I understand where you're coming from, since Loam players are not that many in the first place, but I'd rather have two high quality discussions with 5-15 people each rather than an unfocused one (or worse: one where the minority brewing squeeflagrate is hesitant to participate in) with 10-30 people.
I have a couple questions about your most recent deck @maniospas.
- Why are you running 2x Blooming marsh over 2 of the other fastlands?
- How have the cycle lands been working for you? I am a bit concerned that adding more "come into play tapped" lands might be a problem. Furthermore, does the inclusion of 26 lands (including dryad arbor) prevent you from running useful one-ofs, for example Abrupt Decay/Assassin's Trophy/Darkblast/Lightning Axe/Deadly Allure?
With Blooming Marsh I'm trying to
a) minimize the chance that turn 1 looting into dredge stinkweed turn 2 will leave me able to get black and green even if I accidentally mill over Overgrown Tomb
b) incentivize fetching basic mountain/tapped shock turn 1 into turn 2 marsh for all colors with only 1 pain
c) compress colors so that I run 3 mountains (I feel it's a necessary evil)
It's been working great up to this point. (In the past I played 6 fastlands -2 of each- and it was also comfortable, albeit sometimes loam wasn't as powerful and I couldn't fetch the basic swamp without GQ.)
I'm very torn on the cycling lands; in approximately 10% of the games I play they work wonders in being explosive (both with and without Infestation) and post-board they are insurance against Surgical and Ravenous Trap taking out the Loam engine. They also randomly help stabilize with Brownscale vs. every aggro deck. I also suspect that they can allow a Darkblast to replace the fourth Conflagrate, because cycling lands + loam + darkblast in the lategame can grind through creatures just fine, but I haven't really tested this. On the other hand. sometimes it feels that I'm missing on action with them, but maybe I'm just keeping wrong openers. The increased number of lands have felt incredible in general; the ability to let the land drops smooth out themselves and focus on getting only the stability/value train going is amazing (also note that Dryad is mostly a fetchable creature for Despair + a very efficient chumpblock engine). If I wasn't playing cyclers, I imagine I would be playing only one less land and a couple of utilities (e.g. 2 Bogs).
I'm very against 1-ofs as a deckbuilding choice in general unless they are additional copies of an effect (e.g. hall is a fifth Infestation in theory) or we want them only sometimes and only against slower decks (e.g. I like a singleton Blast Zone, because it can kill bridge).
Currently, the best removal is in my opinion Lightning Axe, because it kills Thing in the Ice, scooze, humans bombs and interacts at instant speed with creature combo decks while also being a discard outlet and curving correctly with turn 2 infestation, turn 3 axe+souls. On the other hand, if you're running only 2 Stinkweeds, Darkblast is absolutely necessary to get a critical mass of dredgers.
I was just thinking... how do we beat this new Hogaak dredgevine? I remember playing the 'old' version of dredgevine and I got absolutely destroyed . Furthermore if they do end up banning a card from it, banning faithless looting would ruin zombie loam.
I can imagine that there are some scenarios where we kill our own bloodghast using a conflagrate to get rid of their bridge from belows. Also, I think we should consider going up to 3/4 copies of memory's journey in the sideboard, and board in anti-graveyard hate cards more aggressively since most modern decks are going to run more graveyard hate.
If you really want to tackle the Hogaak matchup, I've tried with some success maindecking 3x bog, 2x darkblast, 3x cycling lands, 2x brownscales and 2x Pharaohs. We can still get comboed out this way, but it's very difficult to grind through pharaoh + sorcery speed hate + 4-6 life each turn through attacking, even if trample (WHY DOES THAT CARD HAVE TRAMPLE) bypasses our chumpers. Disclaimer: even then we are probably on the losing side - just not in the unbeatable range.
I'd imagine Wizards would ban (if at all) either Bridge or the artifact combo enabler. I've tested Insolent Neonate as a replacement to Looting before and we wouldn't mind it too much; it shaves % points only if Infestation is exactly the 9th card in the deck but grants explosiveness with dredgers and lands (although better options could exist).
I really want to take Modern Zombie Loam to GP Birmingham, but the sheer number of faster dredge decks is worrying me. Maybe I could do some testing and build a deck that at least stands a chance against fast dredge, but doesn't sacrifice too much in terms of other match-ups. Main-decking Bojuka Bog might have to be the way I go.
In all honesty, its probably better that I play another deck more suited to the meta in the GP. Although the 'element of surprise' that this deck still has is definitely an advantage I shouldn't overlook.
2-1 win VS. Infect (splashing white for Rest in Peace):
Game 1 - I darkblast his creatures and eventually killed him with zombie tokens, bloodghast and spirit tokens. I somehow managed to win G1 with no red lands.
Game 2 - 2x RiP. I managed to deal with the 1st one using nature's claim, but the 2nd was too much of a setback.
Game 3 - Turn 2 RiP, I untap, Destroy the RiP and darkblast his creature. I continue to darkblast his creatures until I kill him with tokens.
2-1 win VS. Hardened Scales Affinity
Game 1 - I grind him out with conflagrate and zombie infestation.
Game 2 - My lands deal too much damage to me, and he finishes me off with the typical affinity creatures, although I die 1 card short from stabilising with conflagrate.
Game 3 - I destroy his turn 1 hardened scales. I draw well and kill him with 4 bloodghasts and 4 spirits in play after about 20 turns of grinding.
Opinions on the deck
Overall, I quite like the current version im playing with, but I feel like it definitely need a bit more tweaking. I went down to 2 driven // despair since I was seeing it a bit too much for my liking. I included 1 raven's crime due to the popular UW Control and because it increases the number of keep-able opening hands (by targeting myself and discarding a dredge card on turn 1). Blast Zone performed very well, so I might go up to 2 copies. I'm still not sure about bojuka bog, so if Hogaark gets banned i'll definitely take them out.
I don't find myself needing to cast (or even side-in) heaven // earth very often so I plan on replacing it with a bojuka bog, ghost quarter/tectonic edge, flame jab or the 4th conflagrate/nature's claim.
Great write-up @Danr!
What were the matchups you encountered the most trouble with?
P.S. If you think Despair is not suited for the current meta (I believe tron and scapeshift have been pushed back a lot?) maybe just run 2 Crimes and an Urborg to free up a slot.
Attached is a screenshot of my win/loss record with Zombie Loam. A few of the matches recorded are a a bit out of date (see Amulet Bloom), but most of the games recorded are from the past month. I've tried to colour-code each deck I played to represent how difficult I feel the matchup is. I'm in the process of updating my sideboard guide, so hopefully I can get that finished relatively soon.
I'm really happy with the current version of the deck. Its been super consistent and I've won plenty of games with it. The only thing I'm considering at the moment is playing a 1 of shenanigans in the sideboard (instead of a ancient grudge, since I think it improves our matchup against the Urza Thopter Sword deck.
Been off the deck for a while (since Eldrazi Winter), but my lackluster testing with the newly invigorated Assault Loam is making me take a second look at Loam Pox again. Based on what I'm seeing, I have a few questions:
1) Besides the always-atrocious mana, why has nobody migrated back towards playing actual Smallpox in the deck? It seems to have good application against a lot of the format right now, more so than our worse-version-of-Dredge Conflagrate plan.
2) Why has Wrenn and Six not been mentioned as a tool for the deck? I suppose this makes sense when Smallpox isn't involved, but as I'm interested in including it, I think Wrenn would solve some of my previous issues of mana inconsistencies and also provide the option to create 2 Zombies per turn when Squees are MIA.
3) Regardless of the build, where are your Hogaaks? That card seems to be the perfect "big boi" for closing games before an opponent can claw back in or play a threat that slows down the Zombie plan.
Thanks for any insight. I'm excited to dust off the token army!
My take on your questions:
1) I did say some posts ago that Smallpox is starting to become well-positioned again (i.e. most decks are creature decks). However, after trying it for myself, I re-discovered that it places too many constraints on deckbuilding (number of lands) and playstyle (makes us too reactive for an archetype that plays to the board) for a card that doesn't win the game and can't be found while dredging. I'd rather ran more powerful cards in the same slots really.
2) Wrenn and Six seems a very good addition overall. I just haven't gotten to test with it (because of $$$). Do keep in mind that it feels like a Squee that needs mana. If this proves true, I'd rather ran Squee, because the archetype heavily relies on free effects.
3) I don't know about other people's opinion, but I personally think Hogaak is garbage in the archetype; we simply can't cast it easily before turn 3 and even when we do it cripples the rest of our strategy by needing to exile important cards from the graveyard.
@Everyone
I currently have difficulty assessing what Infestation brings to the table against the increased modern power level; 6 power on turn two is now outclassed by many competetive decks (e.g. Phoenix, Hollow One), which means that zombie tokens can't trade with the early board and then leave us win through the card advantage engine.
I experimentally tried to "make a consistent squeeflagrate strategy" (not zombie loam, but a strategy where I can get in for some cheap shots and finish it up with a couple of Conflagrates). I started by increasing Imps to a full playset to get consistent dredges and gradually morphed into a dredge variant, where:
- Haunted Dead + Amalgams replace Infestation (they create the same rate of putting power on the board but can do so from the yard)
- even one copy of Squee can create some sweet card advantage that enables lethal Conflagrates (a third copy often enables humongous Conflagrates, so maybe I'll cut something for it)
- Creeping Chill replaces Pharaohs, Brownscales, the third Conflagrate and Utility lands
Actually, I think this is good news for this archetype, because a lot of things suddenly became slower, there's much less hate and we're now free to become grindy black green. I'm currently having a blast with this (after the first few tuning iterations):
It's still underpowered a lot (like, a LOT) compared to the rest of the meta, but contrary to before mana run smoothly. Reclaimer is nice in that it's pseudo-inquisition against removal (in retrospect, I forgot to add 2 Horizon lands in place of Mires) and this helps Constrictor do its thing. At the same time, it has some nice utility on its own. At least a 3/4 for 1 is something I'm interested in running in place of Goyf, since it curves more smoothly. Furthemore, it allows for more consistent Despairs in that it saves us a card that could pottentially translate to one more zombie token.
What I'm really missing from the setup is Conflagrate, but I feel ill-inclined to splash for it. I also replaced Pharaoh with pushes because we really need to deal with Scooze and push is better at disrupting creature combos.
Sideboard's still a mess, as I'm searching for strategies in this color combination. Perhaps people will go back to playing Surgicals and I'll jam my favorite Memory's Journeys in there.
I agree on the format being better now, and moving towards BG too, though in a different direction.
I think Life from the loam (the card, not this specific shell) is quite well positioned right now: The format has slowed down quite a bit, and games are much grindier. Life from the loam, as we know, is a card that generates a lot of card advantage, but can take a bit of time and mana to get going.
Faithless lootings and hogaak getting banned means that there is much less graveyard interaction, instead of seeing hate main on a regular basis, it seems to be now back to a couple of pieces in the sideboard for most decks.
Now life from the loam generates a lot of card advantage, but in the form of lands, and then we need some way to transform those lands into actually winning the game.
Stuff like zombie infestation, seismic assault, ayula's influence, raven's crime, conflagrate, etc are usually the cards that get paired with it.
Problem is, those cards suck. I mean they are clearly great when combined with loam, but on their own, if you do not have life from the loam going? It isnt like they are useless... Raven's crime still trades one for one with some piece of dead removal, right? Sure.
But those are not cards that you are extremely happy with on their own.
And then since they kind of suck on their own, then you need to build your deck in a way to maximize them, centering the whole deck around dredge to see more cards, cards that are good from the graveyard to dredge, discard outlets, squees, etc.
This is certainly one way to build the deck, and many people in this thread have dabbled with that. However, the loss of faithless looting is quite a big blow to that type of strategy, and you also end up being very reliant on graveyard sinergies.
The cycling lands, however, open up a new way to play with life from the loam: It gives you something valuable to do with life from the loam, to turn the lands you are getting back into something that can win you the game, but they do so at a much lower cost than the usual cards like zombie infestation, or raven's crime. Even without a loam, they just cycle for a mana, or can be used as tapped lands.
There are a lot of shells where this could be used. I have explored a few, Ugx counter loam, GW leonin arbiter-once upon-ghost quarter, RG aggro loam, etc.
I really like the loam pox shell, because smallpox is quite good right now, and modern horizons gives us Unearth, which I really like in this shell.
Like the cycling lands, it is never truly dead, just asks that you waste some time in the worse case scenario. However it combines with fulminator mage to essentially be a one mana land destruction spell, which means you can smallpox, discard fulminator, and then bring it back turn 3 while deploying your board, or you can fulminator turn 3, and unearth + another spell turn 4, etc.
Even with just fulminator mage, it has been really good.
Witch's cottage theoretically combines with loam and fetchlands to be found quite reliably, and then you can recurr a creature from the graveyard, so any threat you found by dredging can be recurred, providing you with a quick and easy way to end the game, and it can even be recurred with smallpox into loam.
So far, it has not really come up much, I've forgotten about it a couple of times in-game, coming into play tapped until turn 4 was relevant the few times I drew it. Still need to see.
Thoughtseize is really good, but the life loss hurts, the deck doesnt really have any lifegain at the moment, smallpox loses you life, and you can to take a bit of damage from your manabase, as bringing back fetchlands with loam happens quite a bit, so it is again 2-4 life.
This is also why I avoid nurtiring peatland.
I know a basic forest seems like it would allow us to avoid fetching untapped overgrown tombs, but really the deck needs a lot of black mana, and in practice not using a fetch to get a black source ended up hurting much more often than it helped.
I need to fit some lifegain somewhere, but golgari brownscale is a bit meh imo. Especially without the ability to discard it repeatedly to zombie infestation or such.
Liliana of the veil I am also less convinced with right now, since I added the fulminator-unearth package, the 3 drop is a bit more crowded, and they dont work as well together, making people discard dead cards they cant cast anyway isnt all that impressive. I will start by cutting down to 2, maybe I will drop them entirely.
Demigod of Revenge is a bit cute, and 4 is too many. It does end the game in very short order if you can bring back a friend or two, basically putting opponents on a single topdeck. But 5 mana is a lot, even if you never miss any land drops, a smallpox here and there and it just takes a long time, and it does nothing at all until then. It is also not very good defensively.
But the deck needs an actual finisher, something that will close out the game on opponents in short order. Not a card with 2 power like bloodghast or lingering souls or something like bitterblossom. Those provide inevitability against decks that want to interact with your win conditions, but we already have a lot of inevitability against those decks due to loam. We need to be able to close out the game against something like burn or combo or whatever before they topdeck something and kill us.
Even in this shell, with the added LD, locking them out for all eternity isnt very realistic most games, against something like burn they will still draw mountains and lava spikes, you need to kill them.
Goyf has been quite good in that slot, and I also had good success with Questing Beast. 4 mana is doable, and the beast kind of attacks through anything, puts on a quick clock, and the vigilance is very relevant.
With goyf, well I sometimes found myself in board stalls, where I have a goyf, they have 2 creatures, I cant really race, but smallpox interacts poorly, since I would have to sac goyf and allow them to attack. Scavenging ooze also suffers from the same issue.
Questing beast at first seems to have the same problem, it is a big creature so it interacts badly with smallpox, right? Actually, it went much better than expected: You can drop the beast, and just smash. If you are forced to sit with smallpox in hand, you are crashing in for 4 a turn, so not an issue, and if they attack, you can block and trade and then smallpox.
Something like this is probably the next version I will be testing. UnearthTireless tracker after smallpox seems quite good, and like it can close out games in a hurry too.
Geralf's messenger is also something I'd like to try as a finisher, and an unearth target, but no time yet.
And Deathless knight seems like it has a little potential, both as a finisher, and a resilient threat, but again suffers from the fact that the deck doesnt really have good lifegain in the maindeck. I might try with some fountain of renewal, or drake haven or something, but it is probably also a bit slow/cute, instead of the in your face finisher we need.
Hm, so tireless tracker is a bit weird.
On the one hand, well it's tireless tracker, it can run away with the game and so on, and it works well off reanimate after a smallpox.
On the other hand, drawing cards off clues kind of feels redundant with the life from the loam engine, also spending a lot of mana to draw cards, and not getting that much board presence out of it.
Maybe there is a version with something like a 3/2 split between the two. For now I will stick with loams and keep trying the other ones though.
Infestation is worth it only if you also run Squee and dredge to consistently enable it (so it's natural for infestation+Loam to feel anemic on their own), who's in turn worth it only if you run at least another discard outlet (previously Conflagrate).
At the certain point in time, I have to reluctantly admit that this archetype doesn't bring anything over dredge to the table.
So, let's indeed try to morph to a rock-style CA! In this direction, perhaps the best starting point in my opinion is to see what Jund is built like, then replace W&S with Loam and Bolt with more removal (not pox yet) and finally see in which directions the deck fails to see what the complementary effects should be.
Jund usually runs some number of Wrenn and Six now, which obviously is similar.
Wrenn has the upside that you only ever need to invest 2 mana for any number of lands, it pings stuff, and can act as a win condition.
Life from the loam has the upside that it can generate much more card advantage much faster, and by milling through your deck gives you better access to the lands you want. Also doesnt need red mana.
You could definitely fit a copy or two of Life from the loam in abzan to take advantage of lingering souls, or have a rock deck with a Life from the loam draw engine too.
Without pox, you would want some more board presence. Usually people run things like dark confidant, tarmogoyf, tireless tracker, scooze, hexdrinker, plague engineer, grim flayer sometimes.
If you have the life from the loam engine, then you get a lot of card advantage in the mid game, so you probably wouldnt need dark confidant or as many trackers, and instead more beef, grim flayer looks like it could have good sinergy with life from the loam.
There is a thread for non-pox GB midrange https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/established-modern/midrange/801249-the-rock?page=19
Smallpox is really fun though Culling Scales is a card I recently came across that looks like it also could do a lot of work in this metagame too where a lot of decks have random small dorks and permanents.
Take this baby out for just a game and see if you have fun ^^
Another idea I just had was adding in some fields of the dead to the deck.
Getting to 7 lands or more is not really an issue in the deck, you almost never miss a land drop.
The deck cant afford to play a 6 mana finisher, not because the deck wont get to 6 or 7 mana, but because it takes too long, the expensive card is dead early on, and there is no good way to guarantee you will have access to it when you need it to close out the game, instead of it being milled away or something.
Even questing beast suffers a little from that problem, though at 4 mana it is much more manageable.
Field of the dead would not be very difficult to set up, the deck already runs many different lands, the swamps can be split into swamp and snow covered swamps, and life from the loam helps both find 7 different lands, the fileds of the dead, and to keep on making land drops afterwards.
making 2-4 zombies per turn without any real mana investment sounds like it would provide the deck with a very powerful and resilient endgame with very little opportunity cost.
I propose a Zombie Loam deck, leaning heavily on the Zombie Infestation part, with the addition of blue for Master of Death and Otherworldly Gaze. I'm going to edit this post in a couple hours once I've finished with the first draft of a decklist (EDIT - SEE BELOW), but it would be interesting to see if people think its possible to revive my all time favourite deck in modern.
No worries - it's good to have feedback!
As I said in the previous post though, we have very different discussions, because almost all posts there are for assault loam (edit: or at least for very different varieties), which is very different (it's like calling spirits humans due to Thalias, Images and Reflectors - cards just happen to overlap - it's the same reason this is a different forum thread). It's the same with r/ModernMagic; I'd personally not want to have to scroll & filter through numerous unrelated posts to find the latest ideas for the particular archetype and I imagine this sentiment is shared by a lot of people that want a meaningful discussion rather than discussing trends. I understand where you're coming from, since Loam players are not that many in the first place, but I'd rather have two high quality discussions with 5-15 people each rather than an unfocused one (or worse: one where the minority brewing squeeflagrate is hesitant to participate in) with 10-30 people.
GW Copycat
Jund Loam
- Why are you running 2x Blooming marsh over 2 of the other fastlands?
- How have the cycle lands been working for you? I am a bit concerned that adding more "come into play tapped" lands might be a problem. Furthermore, does the inclusion of 26 lands (including dryad arbor) prevent you from running useful one-ofs, for example Abrupt Decay/Assassin's Trophy/Darkblast/Lightning Axe/Deadly Allure?
On another note, i'm planning on testing out a single copy of Hall of Heliod's Generosity in place of a tectonic edge. I also seem to have 2 spots free in my deck to play removal spells. I'm currently running 1 Darkblast and 1 Abrupt Decay, but I'm not sure if it would be better to run 2 Darkblast, or 1 Assassin's Trophy, or 1 Deadly Allure. What do you guys think?
Current Decklist- https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/732750#online
Sideboard Guide- https://www.scribd.com/document/384901650/Sideboard-Guide-to-Squeeflagrate
Forum- https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/582542-raphael-levys-loam-pox?page=37
a) minimize the chance that turn 1 looting into dredge stinkweed turn 2 will leave me able to get black and green even if I accidentally mill over Overgrown Tomb
b) incentivize fetching basic mountain/tapped shock turn 1 into turn 2 marsh for all colors with only 1 pain
c) compress colors so that I run 3 mountains (I feel it's a necessary evil)
It's been working great up to this point. (In the past I played 6 fastlands -2 of each- and it was also comfortable, albeit sometimes loam wasn't as powerful and I couldn't fetch the basic swamp without GQ.)
I'm very torn on the cycling lands; in approximately 10% of the games I play they work wonders in being explosive (both with and without Infestation) and post-board they are insurance against Surgical and Ravenous Trap taking out the Loam engine. They also randomly help stabilize with Brownscale vs. every aggro deck. I also suspect that they can allow a Darkblast to replace the fourth Conflagrate, because cycling lands + loam + darkblast in the lategame can grind through creatures just fine, but I haven't really tested this. On the other hand. sometimes it feels that I'm missing on action with them, but maybe I'm just keeping wrong openers. The increased number of lands have felt incredible in general; the ability to let the land drops smooth out themselves and focus on getting only the stability/value train going is amazing (also note that Dryad is mostly a fetchable creature for Despair + a very efficient chumpblock engine). If I wasn't playing cyclers, I imagine I would be playing only one less land and a couple of utilities (e.g. 2 Bogs).
I'm very against 1-ofs as a deckbuilding choice in general unless they are additional copies of an effect (e.g. hall is a fifth Infestation in theory) or we want them only sometimes and only against slower decks (e.g. I like a singleton Blast Zone, because it can kill bridge).
Currently, the best removal is in my opinion Lightning Axe, because it kills Thing in the Ice, scooze, humans bombs and interacts at instant speed with creature combo decks while also being a discard outlet and curving correctly with turn 2 infestation, turn 3 axe+souls. On the other hand, if you're running only 2 Stinkweeds, Darkblast is absolutely necessary to get a critical mass of dredgers.
GW Copycat
Jund Loam
I can imagine that there are some scenarios where we kill our own bloodghast using a conflagrate to get rid of their bridge from belows. Also, I think we should consider going up to 3/4 copies of memory's journey in the sideboard, and board in anti-graveyard hate cards more aggressively since most modern decks are going to run more graveyard hate.
Current Decklist- https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/732750#online
Sideboard Guide- https://www.scribd.com/document/384901650/Sideboard-Guide-to-Squeeflagrate
Forum- https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/582542-raphael-levys-loam-pox?page=37
I'd imagine Wizards would ban (if at all) either Bridge or the artifact combo enabler. I've tested Insolent Neonate as a replacement to Looting before and we wouldn't mind it too much; it shaves % points only if Infestation is exactly the 9th card in the deck but grants explosiveness with dredgers and lands (although better options could exist).
GW Copycat
Jund Loam
In all honesty, its probably better that I play another deck more suited to the meta in the GP. Although the 'element of surprise' that this deck still has is definitely an advantage I shouldn't overlook.
Current Decklist- https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/732750#online
Sideboard Guide- https://www.scribd.com/document/384901650/Sideboard-Guide-to-Squeeflagrate
Forum- https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/582542-raphael-levys-loam-pox?page=37
4 Bloodghast
3 Squee, Goblin Nabob
3 Stinkweed Imp
2 Vengeful Pharaoh
1 Golgari Brownscale
1 Nether Spirit
Noncreature Spells (22)
4 Life from the Loam
4 Zombie Infestation
4 Faithless Looting
3 Conflagrate
3 Lingering Souls
2 Driven // Despair
1 Raven's Crime
1 Darkblast
1 Blast Zone
2 Ghost Quarter
3 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Blooming Marsh
2 Bojuka Bog
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Blood Crypt
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Murmuring Bosk
3 Nature's Claim
3 Golgari Brownscale
2 Ray of Revelation
2 Memory's Journey
1 Lightning Axe
1 Heaven // Earth
2-1 win VS. Infect (splashing white for Rest in Peace):
Game 1 - I darkblast his creatures and eventually killed him with zombie tokens, bloodghast and spirit tokens. I somehow managed to win G1 with no red lands.
Game 2 - 2x RiP. I managed to deal with the 1st one using nature's claim, but the 2nd was too much of a setback.
Game 3 - Turn 2 RiP, I untap, Destroy the RiP and darkblast his creature. I continue to darkblast his creatures until I kill him with tokens.
2-1 win VS. Hardened Scales Affinity
Game 1 - I grind him out with conflagrate and zombie infestation.
Game 2 - My lands deal too much damage to me, and he finishes me off with the typical affinity creatures, although I die 1 card short from stabilising with conflagrate.
Game 3 - I destroy his turn 1 hardened scales. I draw well and kill him with 4 bloodghasts and 4 spirits in play after about 20 turns of grinding.
Opinions on the deck
Overall, I quite like the current version im playing with, but I feel like it definitely need a bit more tweaking. I went down to 2 driven // despair since I was seeing it a bit too much for my liking. I included 1 raven's crime due to the popular UW Control and because it increases the number of keep-able opening hands (by targeting myself and discarding a dredge card on turn 1). Blast Zone performed very well, so I might go up to 2 copies. I'm still not sure about bojuka bog, so if Hogaark gets banned i'll definitely take them out.
I don't find myself needing to cast (or even side-in) heaven // earth very often so I plan on replacing it with a bojuka bog, ghost quarter/tectonic edge, flame jab or the 4th conflagrate/nature's claim.
Current Decklist- https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/732750#online
Sideboard Guide- https://www.scribd.com/document/384901650/Sideboard-Guide-to-Squeeflagrate
Forum- https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/582542-raphael-levys-loam-pox?page=37
What were the matchups you encountered the most trouble with?
P.S. If you think Despair is not suited for the current meta (I believe tron and scapeshift have been pushed back a lot?) maybe just run 2 Crimes and an Urborg to free up a slot.
GW Copycat
Jund Loam
4 Bloodghast
3 Squee, Goblin Nabob
3 Stinkweed Imp
2 Vengeful Pharaoh
1 Nether Spirit
Noncreature Spells (23)
4 Life from the Loam
4 Zombie Infestation
4 Faithless Looting
3 Conflagrate
3 Lingering Souls
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Raven's Crime
1 Darkblast
1 Blast Zone
3 Ghost Quarter
3 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Blooming Marsh
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Blood Crypt
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Murmuring Bosk
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Nature's Claim
3 Golgari Brownscale
2 Ray of Revelation
2 Memory's Journey
1 Lightning Axe
1 Heaven // Earth
Attached is a screenshot of my win/loss record with Zombie Loam. A few of the matches recorded are a a bit out of date (see Amulet Bloom), but most of the games recorded are from the past month. I've tried to colour-code each deck I played to represent how difficult I feel the matchup is. I'm in the process of updating my sideboard guide, so hopefully I can get that finished relatively soon.
I'm really happy with the current version of the deck. Its been super consistent and I've won plenty of games with it. The only thing I'm considering at the moment is playing a 1 of shenanigans in the sideboard (instead of a ancient grudge, since I think it improves our matchup against the Urza Thopter Sword deck.
Current Decklist- https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/732750#online
Sideboard Guide- https://www.scribd.com/document/384901650/Sideboard-Guide-to-Squeeflagrate
Forum- https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/582542-raphael-levys-loam-pox?page=37
Been off the deck for a while (since Eldrazi Winter), but my lackluster testing with the newly invigorated Assault Loam is making me take a second look at Loam Pox again. Based on what I'm seeing, I have a few questions:
1) Besides the always-atrocious mana, why has nobody migrated back towards playing actual Smallpox in the deck? It seems to have good application against a lot of the format right now, more so than our worse-version-of-Dredge Conflagrate plan.
2) Why has Wrenn and Six not been mentioned as a tool for the deck? I suppose this makes sense when Smallpox isn't involved, but as I'm interested in including it, I think Wrenn would solve some of my previous issues of mana inconsistencies and also provide the option to create 2 Zombies per turn when Squees are MIA.
3) Regardless of the build, where are your Hogaaks? That card seems to be the perfect "big boi" for closing games before an opponent can claw back in or play a threat that slows down the Zombie plan.
Thanks for any insight. I'm excited to dust off the token army!
My take on your questions:
1) I did say some posts ago that Smallpox is starting to become well-positioned again (i.e. most decks are creature decks). However, after trying it for myself, I re-discovered that it places too many constraints on deckbuilding (number of lands) and playstyle (makes us too reactive for an archetype that plays to the board) for a card that doesn't win the game and can't be found while dredging. I'd rather ran more powerful cards in the same slots really.
2) Wrenn and Six seems a very good addition overall. I just haven't gotten to test with it (because of $$$). Do keep in mind that it feels like a Squee that needs mana. If this proves true, I'd rather ran Squee, because the archetype heavily relies on free effects.
3) I don't know about other people's opinion, but I personally think Hogaak is garbage in the archetype; we simply can't cast it easily before turn 3 and even when we do it cripples the rest of our strategy by needing to exile important cards from the graveyard.
@Everyone
I currently have difficulty assessing what Infestation brings to the table against the increased modern power level; 6 power on turn two is now outclassed by many competetive decks (e.g. Phoenix, Hollow One), which means that zombie tokens can't trade with the early board and then leave us win through the card advantage engine.
I experimentally tried to "make a consistent squeeflagrate strategy" (not zombie loam, but a strategy where I can get in for some cheap shots and finish it up with a couple of Conflagrates). I started by increasing Imps to a full playset to get consistent dredges and gradually morphed into a dredge variant, where:
- Haunted Dead + Amalgams replace Infestation (they create the same rate of putting power on the board but can do so from the yard)
- even one copy of Squee can create some sweet card advantage that enables lethal Conflagrates (a third copy often enables humongous Conflagrates, so maybe I'll cut something for it)
- Creeping Chill replaces Pharaohs, Brownscales, the third Conflagrate and Utility lands
4 Bloodghast
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Squee, Goblin Nabob
2 Haunted Dead
Other spells (21)
4 Shriekhorn
4 Creeping Chill
4 Faithless Looting
4 Life from the Loam
2 Conflagrate
3 Cathartic Reunion
2 Blooming Marsh
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Stomping Ground
1 Blood Crypt
1 Overgrown Tomb
3 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Steam Vents
2 Dakmor Salvage
2 Lightning Axe
3 Ancient Grudge
1 Gnaw to the Bone
4 Nature's Claim
1 Darkblast
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Blast Zone
2 Driven // Despair
GW Copycat
Jund Loam
Current Decklist- https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/732750#online
Sideboard Guide- https://www.scribd.com/document/384901650/Sideboard-Guide-to-Squeeflagrate
Forum- https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/582542-raphael-levys-loam-pox?page=37
4 Zombie Infestation
Creatures (19)
4 Elvish Reclaimer
3 Noose Constrictor
4 Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 Bloodghast
3 Stinkweed Imp
1 Dryad Arbor
Instants and Sorceries (17)
4 Life from the Loam
3 Lingering Souls
3 Driven // Despair
2 Collective Brutality
3 Fatal Push
2 Darkblast
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Blooming Marsh
1 Swamp
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Forest
1 Temple Garden
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Barren Moor
1 Blast Zone
4 Nature's Claim
1 Collective Brutality
3 Golgari Brownscale
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Thoughtseize
It's still underpowered a lot (like, a LOT) compared to the rest of the meta, but contrary to before mana run smoothly. Reclaimer is nice in that it's pseudo-inquisition against removal (in retrospect, I forgot to add 2 Horizon lands in place of Mires) and this helps Constrictor do its thing. At the same time, it has some nice utility on its own. At least a 3/4 for 1 is something I'm interested in running in place of Goyf, since it curves more smoothly. Furthemore, it allows for more consistent Despairs in that it saves us a card that could pottentially translate to one more zombie token.
What I'm really missing from the setup is Conflagrate, but I feel ill-inclined to splash for it. I also replaced Pharaoh with pushes because we really need to deal with Scooze and push is better at disrupting creature combos.
Sideboard's still a mess, as I'm searching for strategies in this color combination. Perhaps people will go back to playing Surgicals and I'll jam my favorite Memory's Journeys in there.
GW Copycat
Jund Loam
I think Life from the loam (the card, not this specific shell) is quite well positioned right now: The format has slowed down quite a bit, and games are much grindier. Life from the loam, as we know, is a card that generates a lot of card advantage, but can take a bit of time and mana to get going.
Faithless lootings and hogaak getting banned means that there is much less graveyard interaction, instead of seeing hate main on a regular basis, it seems to be now back to a couple of pieces in the sideboard for most decks.
Now life from the loam generates a lot of card advantage, but in the form of lands, and then we need some way to transform those lands into actually winning the game.
Stuff like zombie infestation, seismic assault, ayula's influence, raven's crime, conflagrate, etc are usually the cards that get paired with it.
Problem is, those cards suck. I mean they are clearly great when combined with loam, but on their own, if you do not have life from the loam going? It isnt like they are useless... Raven's crime still trades one for one with some piece of dead removal, right? Sure.
But those are not cards that you are extremely happy with on their own.
And then since they kind of suck on their own, then you need to build your deck in a way to maximize them, centering the whole deck around dredge to see more cards, cards that are good from the graveyard to dredge, discard outlets, squees, etc.
This is certainly one way to build the deck, and many people in this thread have dabbled with that. However, the loss of faithless looting is quite a big blow to that type of strategy, and you also end up being very reliant on graveyard sinergies.
The cycling lands, however, open up a new way to play with life from the loam: It gives you something valuable to do with life from the loam, to turn the lands you are getting back into something that can win you the game, but they do so at a much lower cost than the usual cards like zombie infestation, or raven's crime. Even without a loam, they just cycle for a mana, or can be used as tapped lands.
There are a lot of shells where this could be used. I have explored a few, Ugx counter loam, GW leonin arbiter-once upon-ghost quarter, RG aggro loam, etc.
I really like the loam pox shell, because smallpox is quite good right now, and modern horizons gives us Unearth, which I really like in this shell.
Like the cycling lands, it is never truly dead, just asks that you waste some time in the worse case scenario. However it combines with fulminator mage to essentially be a one mana land destruction spell, which means you can smallpox, discard fulminator, and then bring it back turn 3 while deploying your board, or you can fulminator turn 3, and unearth + another spell turn 4, etc.
Even with just fulminator mage, it has been really good.
Currently, I am looking at something like this:
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Overgrown Tomb
3 Mutavault
4 Swamp
2 Blooming Marsh
1 Witch's Cottage (maybe)
3 Tranquil Thicket
// Creatures
4 Fulminator Mage
4 Demigod of Revenge/???
// Spells
4 Smallpox
4 Unearth
4 Fatal Push (maybe 3/1 split with darkblast? 4/1?)
3 Abrupt Decay (+-1)
4 Life from the Loam
2 Thoughtseize (maybe a third, or an inquisition, or a raven's crime)
4 Liliana of the Veil (actually not entirely convinced)
Witch's cottage theoretically combines with loam and fetchlands to be found quite reliably, and then you can recurr a creature from the graveyard, so any threat you found by dredging can be recurred, providing you with a quick and easy way to end the game, and it can even be recurred with smallpox into loam.
So far, it has not really come up much, I've forgotten about it a couple of times in-game, coming into play tapped until turn 4 was relevant the few times I drew it. Still need to see.
Thoughtseize is really good, but the life loss hurts, the deck doesnt really have any lifegain at the moment, smallpox loses you life, and you can to take a bit of damage from your manabase, as bringing back fetchlands with loam happens quite a bit, so it is again 2-4 life.
This is also why I avoid nurtiring peatland.
I know a basic forest seems like it would allow us to avoid fetching untapped overgrown tombs, but really the deck needs a lot of black mana, and in practice not using a fetch to get a black source ended up hurting much more often than it helped.
I need to fit some lifegain somewhere, but golgari brownscale is a bit meh imo. Especially without the ability to discard it repeatedly to zombie infestation or such.
Liliana of the veil I am also less convinced with right now, since I added the fulminator-unearth package, the 3 drop is a bit more crowded, and they dont work as well together, making people discard dead cards they cant cast anyway isnt all that impressive. I will start by cutting down to 2, maybe I will drop them entirely.
Demigod of Revenge is a bit cute, and 4 is too many. It does end the game in very short order if you can bring back a friend or two, basically putting opponents on a single topdeck. But 5 mana is a lot, even if you never miss any land drops, a smallpox here and there and it just takes a long time, and it does nothing at all until then. It is also not very good defensively.
But the deck needs an actual finisher, something that will close out the game on opponents in short order. Not a card with 2 power like bloodghast or lingering souls or something like bitterblossom. Those provide inevitability against decks that want to interact with your win conditions, but we already have a lot of inevitability against those decks due to loam. We need to be able to close out the game against something like burn or combo or whatever before they topdeck something and kill us.
Even in this shell, with the added LD, locking them out for all eternity isnt very realistic most games, against something like burn they will still draw mountains and lava spikes, you need to kill them.
Goyf has been quite good in that slot, and I also had good success with Questing Beast. 4 mana is doable, and the beast kind of attacks through anything, puts on a quick clock, and the vigilance is very relevant.
With goyf, well I sometimes found myself in board stalls, where I have a goyf, they have 2 creatures, I cant really race, but smallpox interacts poorly, since I would have to sac goyf and allow them to attack. Scavenging ooze also suffers from the same issue.
Questing beast at first seems to have the same problem, it is a big creature so it interacts badly with smallpox, right? Actually, it went much better than expected: You can drop the beast, and just smash. If you are forced to sit with smallpox in hand, you are crashing in for 4 a turn, so not an issue, and if they attack, you can block and trade and then smallpox.
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Overgrown Tomb
3 Mutavault
4 Swamp
2 Blooming Marsh
1 Witch's Cottage
3 Tranquil Thicket
// Creatures
4 Fulminator Mage
3 Questing Beast
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Tireless Tracker
4 Smallpox
4 Unearth
4 Fatal Push
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Life from the Loam
2 Thoughtseize
2 Liliana of the Veil
Something like this is probably the next version I will be testing. Unearth Tireless tracker after smallpox seems quite good, and like it can close out games in a hurry too.
Geralf's messenger is also something I'd like to try as a finisher, and an unearth target, but no time yet.
And Deathless knight seems like it has a little potential, both as a finisher, and a resilient threat, but again suffers from the fact that the deck doesnt really have good lifegain in the maindeck. I might try with some fountain of renewal, or drake haven or something, but it is probably also a bit slow/cute, instead of the in your face finisher we need.
Rotting Regisaur is also on my to-test list.
On the one hand, well it's tireless tracker, it can run away with the game and so on, and it works well off reanimate after a smallpox.
On the other hand, drawing cards off clues kind of feels redundant with the life from the loam engine, also spending a lot of mana to draw cards, and not getting that much board presence out of it.
Maybe there is a version with something like a 3/2 split between the two. For now I will stick with loams and keep trying the other ones though.
At the certain point in time, I have to reluctantly admit that this archetype doesn't bring anything over dredge to the table.
So, let's indeed try to morph to a rock-style CA! In this direction, perhaps the best starting point in my opinion is to see what Jund is built like, then replace W&S with Loam and Bolt with more removal (not pox yet) and finally see in which directions the deck fails to see what the complementary effects should be.
GW Copycat
Jund Loam
Wrenn has the upside that you only ever need to invest 2 mana for any number of lands, it pings stuff, and can act as a win condition.
Life from the loam has the upside that it can generate much more card advantage much faster, and by milling through your deck gives you better access to the lands you want. Also doesnt need red mana.
You could definitely fit a copy or two of Life from the loam in abzan to take advantage of lingering souls, or have a rock deck with a Life from the loam draw engine too.
Without pox, you would want some more board presence. Usually people run things like dark confidant, tarmogoyf, tireless tracker, scooze, hexdrinker, plague engineer, grim flayer sometimes.
If you have the life from the loam engine, then you get a lot of card advantage in the mid game, so you probably wouldnt need dark confidant or as many trackers, and instead more beef, grim flayer looks like it could have good sinergy with life from the loam.
There is a thread for non-pox GB midrange https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/established-modern/midrange/801249-the-rock?page=19
Smallpox is really fun though
Culling Scales is a card I recently came across that looks like it also could do a lot of work in this metagame too where a lot of decks have random small dorks and permanents.
Take this baby out for just a game and see if you have fun ^^
4 Barren Moor
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Tranquil Thicket
2 Mutavault
4 Swamp
2 Blooming Marsh
1 Field of Ruin
1 Treetop Village
1 Twilight Mire
1 Forest
4 Fulminator Mage
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Questing Beast
// Spells
4 Smallpox
4 Unearth
4 Fatal Push
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Life from the Loam
1 Culling Scales
3 Thoughtseize
1 Collective Brutality
Edit:
Getting to 7 lands or more is not really an issue in the deck, you almost never miss a land drop.
The deck cant afford to play a 6 mana finisher, not because the deck wont get to 6 or 7 mana, but because it takes too long, the expensive card is dead early on, and there is no good way to guarantee you will have access to it when you need it to close out the game, instead of it being milled away or something.
Even questing beast suffers a little from that problem, though at 4 mana it is much more manageable.
Field of the dead would not be very difficult to set up, the deck already runs many different lands, the swamps can be split into swamp and snow covered swamps, and life from the loam helps both find 7 different lands, the fileds of the dead, and to keep on making land drops afterwards.
making 2-4 zombies per turn without any real mana investment sounds like it would provide the deck with a very powerful and resilient endgame with very little opportunity cost.
After taking a veryyyyy long break from MTG (due to a lot of university work), an article on mtggoldfish has caught my eye...
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/budget-magic-100-8-squee-infestation-modern
I propose a Zombie Loam deck, leaning heavily on the Zombie Infestation part, with the addition of blue for Master of Death and Otherworldly Gaze. I'm going to edit this post in a couple hours once I've finished with the first draft of a decklist (EDIT - SEE BELOW), but it would be interesting to see if people think its possible to revive my all time favourite deck in modern.
4 Bloodghast
4 Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 Master of Death
2 Stinkweed Imp
1 Vengeful Pharaoh
1 Golgari Brownscale
Noncreature Spells (20)
4 Zombie Infestation
4 Life from the Loam
4 Otherworldly Gaze
3 Conflagrate
2 Darkblast
2 Deadly Brew
1 Lightning Axe
1 Blast Zone
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Blooming Marsh
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Blood Crypt
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
1 Ketria Triome
4 Nature's Claim
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Golgari Brownscale
2 Deadly Brew
2 Memory's Journey
1 Abrupt Decay
Current Decklist- https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/732750#online
Sideboard Guide- https://www.scribd.com/document/384901650/Sideboard-Guide-to-Squeeflagrate
Forum- https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/582542-raphael-levys-loam-pox?page=37