We tried to keep the mana dorks to a minimum, while still having an effective ramp system to drop Archangel of Thune on turn three or four, followed by Aurelia, the Warleader for a lethal swing the turn she hits the board.
Courser and Archangel are pretty mean together. But add in fetches, and that makes for a quick and inexpensive way to net +1/+1 counters along with gaining life. Life gain is a great way to make a burn player hate the matchup. Baneslayer is added Lifelink, which helps out my board even more when Archangel is around.
Boros Charms are clutch in preserving the board presence that you work on building for the first few turns, and every creature(barring the mana dorks) passes The Bolt Test.
Garruk helps ramp up to the proper mana if your dorks don't stick around, and he also provides chump blockers if you need them.
I think I see 8 fetches and a rather slow deck. I'd remove the sylvan caryatids and add in lotus cobras. They are cheaper (monetarily speaking) and far more explosive and help you take serious advantage of your landfall. By the same token, xenagos's mana ability is quite win-more whereas garruk wildspeaker's synergizes quite well with your strategy. I believe I would remove xenagos and just add in the two baneslayers and possibly a third courser? Seems a solid strategy you spoke of and you might as well expand upon it.
I think I see 8 fetches and a rather slow deck. I'd remove the sylvan caryatids and add in lotus cobras. They are cheaper (monetarily speaking) and far more explosive and help you take serious advantage of your landfall.
We originally discussed Lotus Cobra over Sylvan Caryatid, but Cobra has a Bolt problem. As soon as people see it hit the board, they turn it into snake stew. That's why we decided to go with Caryatid. It doesn't have to worry about Most spot removal and burn, other than Anger of the Gods and the classic sweepers.
By the same token, xenagos's mana ability is quite win-more whereas garruk wildspeaker's synergizes quite well with your strategy. I believe I would remove xenagos and just add in the two baneslayers and possibly a third courser? Seems a solid strategy you spoke of and you might as well expand upon it.
you'd be surprised how many times Xenagos gave me the last one or two mana I needed to drop an angel, but Garruk would've don't the same thing. Dropping a Xenagos for a final Garruk would be ideal, and a second for the last Courser would be a good decision as well.
You say drop the last Xenagos for another Baneslayer?
Or would another Archangel of Thune be more dominant?
With how much I already see Courser(he loves this deck), I think another Archangel would be the best bet. I've also been thinking of dropping the Sigardas into the sideboard and finding a different creature that has more board presence(while still, hopefully, hexproof), or maybe some Primal Commands. Any suggestions on that idea?
I would rather have a baneslayer over an archangel. It's true archangel can grow your team, but you're not also gaining a ton of life and most often, you're going to have one or two angels as your team that you attack with. In that case, baneslayer will be the stronger threat as it's already a 5/5 lifelink, etc. over the other and is harder to bolt after combat (think delver running into your archangel, post combat, bolt!).
On the archangel, remember each instance of landfall (ok, not landfall, but play land trigger) of the courser will trigger it. Now, what is easier to cast? a 2nd courser or a second archangel?
Baneslayer has First Strike as well, which is Beast on a 5/5 body. You're right about the Delver/bolt bomb, which is a reason why I've got a playset of Boros Charms main decked. If Archangel is that important to me at that point in time, then I can save it. But, I think I'm going to go with your advice and add in at least one more Baneslayer.
IT looks a lot more solid now. I wonder that garruk won't buy it a lot, but running 4 of them is probably the right call for now. Just playtest it and see how it goes.
I love the deck, but your sideboard could definitely use a bit of work. Have you considered Leyline of Sanctity? It will straight up win you most combo match ups and can often end up costing nothing to cast. Selesnya Charm seemed like a bit of a strange choice. I found that unless you absolutely need the trample, which you shouldn't given the quantity of fliers, it's a strictly worse Path to Exile.
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As you can see, I came to the Same conclusion you did on Leyline of Sanctity. I also removed the Selesnya Charms for Beast Within, and it now looks like I can handle a lot more matchups with ease. Well, not with ease. But I'll at least have a couple answers for what they're trying to do.
The deck is running pretty smooth, and doesn't have much of a problem with spot removal. Most decks use things that deal damage or give -X/-X until end of turn to try and get rid of things they don't like, other than the one or two actual creature removal spells main-decked in most top tier decks. Dismember seems to put in the most work against this Angels deck, but it comes at a pretty rough price on turn 2 or 3(paying 2-4 life) to deal with a Courser of Kruphix, which is a prime early-game target for removal.
After a friend helped me test out the Angels, I found that each time Sigarda, Host of Herons was in my opening hand, I wanted it to be a 3-drop creature(Courser5-7). When I drew into her, I found myself thinking, "This should be a Primeval Titan. This morning, I decided to search out 3-drops that I could use in this deck while moving Sigarda to the sideboard(she really does help in certain matchups).
Here the list of creatures I narrowed the list down to:
Personally, I feel that Knight of the Reliquary would be awesome for this deck. Already running 8 fetch-lands, it could beat out Bolt easy enough. Plus, it would let you fix your mana if need be. All in all, I feel it would be a solid upgrade.
Cavaliers is just a beater/blocker that can beat out bolt. That's why he made the list, and the only reason to be completely honest.
Shaman would end up dealing the pilot of this deck a decent amount of damage, which isn't very advantageous. But, who Knows how much damage he could deal to your opponents. And a 3/4 body is always nice.
After I tested the deck list and saw what KotR was able to do, I decided not to test the other options. It makes the deck run really smooth when she's on the board, along with drawing lots of removal. That's key to me because I don't want them to save their Go for the Throats(or whatever it is they might be using) for my angels if I don't happen to have a Boros Charm in hand or open mana.
Have you considered cutting the red for birthing podrestoration angelkitchen finks and a copy of spike feeder. AKA. I suggest you look at angel pod as a basis for your deck
I understand wanting to avoid net decking and bring something new to the table but I feel that sacking finks to a pod and getting resto to blink finks is exactly what you want to do with this deck.
Or you could play a white green counter meta deck that consists of a lot of life gain and creatures that don't get really screwed by lighting bolt
Also...I really do think you should reconsider cobra over caryatid...though I do understand your fears of cobra being so fragile.
It's just 8 fetches + kruphix and now with your reliquaries?
Add in the fact that you've got a lot of high costing spells (5cmc+) in your deck and cobra just seems like a beast to me.
Have you considered cutting the red for birthing podrestoration angelkitchen finks and a copy of spike feeder. AKA. I suggest you look at angel pod as a basis for your deck
I understand wanting to avoid net decking and bring something new to the table but I feel that sacking finks to a pod and getting resto to blink finks is exactly what you want to do with this deck.
Or you could play a white green counter meta deck that consists of a lot of life gain and creatures that don't get really screwed by lighting bolt
Angel Pod is so far away from what we're trying to accomplish. Regardless, both decks have a 4-turn clock. So there's no point in changing over to Angel Pod. Especially seeing as how most all of Angel Pods creatures can be bolted off of the field(except Wall of Roots, Archangel of Thune and one other[5 creatures total]). and that's the complete opposite of what we're trying to do.
I can only get one mana out of Hierarch.
Arbor elf gives me one, two, sometimes three mana each turn. Plus, it doesn't cost $70 a pop. On top of all that, Hierarch doesn't really do much of anything for the deck other than provide a GORW each turn, considering I hardly ever attack with only one creature.
So, Arbor Elf is definitely staying in over Noble Hierarch. Not for budget reasons, but for overall value.
It's just 8 fetches + kruphix and now with your reliquaries?
Add in the fact that you've got a lot of high costing spells (5cmc+) in your deck and cobra just seems like a beast to me.
What's wrong with Knight of the Reliquary? She's a great beater that fixes my lands and thins them out of my deck.
As far as Lotus Cobra goes:
The majority of people take out Arbor Elf in the first couple turns. It can't survive much, and it's pretty easy to hate off of the board. This means, the majority of the time, I have to work off of my second turn mana dork(Sylvan Caryatid). Now, with all the burn and U/R builds going off in the meta, we need creatures that can stick around after 2-3 damage. Lotus Cobra sitting next to an Arbor Elf is an opponents dream when he/she has an Electrolyze, Arc Trail, etc., in their hand.
With that said, I know that it's important to have a mana dork that can stick around so you aren't stuck dropping just lands each turn until you die.
Well, You could conceivably try fertile ground over sylvan caryatid or the knight of the reliquary, if you wanted to give it a shot. It would likewise have synergy with the garruk/elf package and be even harder to deal with than most. With 8 land untappers in there, I'd be very tempted to consider it.
Gotta keep Siggy in the board. IDK if you were considering taking her out, but don't. Too good against any rock style decks.
The person that suggest cobra again wasn't saying anything wrong with KotR. They were trying to point out that since you made your decision you now have another land fetcher. So you may want to change your mind on cobra or wall.
Now that you have KotR you could consider some utility lands. Gardens is good as a 1 of in case of lilly. And they have a few good ones other than that. Leaving KotR untapped to fetch the protection land can lead to blowouts.
Finks does pass the bolt test... kind of. He could have a place MD if you are having any issues with burn.
O baloth is a good SB card for both burn and rock style decks also. They can activate lilly and you put him into play. Also gaining life and a 4/4 against burn can be a big deal when combined with other life gain.
Fertile ground probably shouldn't be considered over your wall. The wall is really only good should you get an untapper where the wall can always do its thing or blocks a good bit. Another choice that I strongly recommend is wall of roots. It blocks better than caratiyd. While also making mana. By the time it is too weak to block it should be mid to late game where you start dropping bombs. The only green mana part sucks but just as a ramp it is slightly better.
If you consider any of these suggestions then Restoration Angel looks to come in your deck also.
Well, You could conceivably try fertile ground over sylvan caryatid or the knight of the reliquary, if you wanted to give it a shot. It would likewise have synergy with the garruk/elf package and be even harder to deal with than most. With 8 land untappers in there, I'd be very tempted to consider it.
I can see where you're coming from, but I like the body on Caryatid. It helps out a lot against guides and other first turn 2/x'ers that people like to get a few good shots in with.
Fertile ground could lead to a lot more mana though, that's for sure(with a Garruk or Arbor Elf on the board).
Gotta keep Siggy in the board. IDK if you were considering taking her out, but don't. Too good against any rock style decks.
The person that suggest cobra again wasn't saying anything wrong with KotR. They were trying to point out that since you made your decision you now have another land fetcher. So you may want to change your mind on cobra or wall.
I understand, but Cobra is still too prone to dying in today's meta. Don't get me wrong, Cobra has way more explosive potential than Caryatid, and would speed things up tremendously. But, I feel that Cobra just won't make it to that point enough to be useful.
Overall, it's a meta choice.
Now that you have KotR you could consider some utility lands. Gardens is good as a 1 of in case of lilly. And they have a few good ones other than that. Leaving KotR untapped to fetch the protection land can lead to blowouts.
I like this suggestion a lot. I'll take a long look at what utility lands would function well in this deck and make up a list.
Finks does pass the bolt test... kind of. He could have a place MD if you are having any issues with burn.
O baloth is a good SB card for both burn and rock style decks also. They can activate lilly and you put him into play. Also gaining life and a 4/4 against burn can be a big deal when combined with other life gain.
I've been thinking of putting some Kitchen Finks or Spike Feeders in the sideboard because I think they could definitely help against burn and other aggressive decks, but the sideboard is loaded. The only card, in my mind, that could be on the chopping block is KoTR. And I'm pretty sure that I'd rather have it in the main over Spike Feeder or Finks. But, only one way to find out. I'll test them both out and let you guys know what I think.
Fertile ground probably shouldn't be considered over your wall. The wall is really only good should you get an untapper where the wall can always do its thing or blocks a good bit. Another choice that I strongly recommend is wall of roots. It blocks better than caratiyd. While also making mana. By the time it is too weak to block it should be mid to late game where you start dropping bombs. The only green mana part sucks but just as a ramp it is slightly better.
If you consider any of these suggestions then Restoration Angel looks to come in your deck also.
I like that Caryatid can produce a mana of any color, and that helps when it comes to dropping those mana-intense angels. I don't mind if it's tapped after I use it, because that usually means I have a different body to block with.
With the amount of burn/delver decks going around, I think the Spike Feeder + Archangel of Thune combo will win you SO many games that I think it should be included mainboard over KoTR. You could even go 1-1 with them but I think that synergy is too good to pass up.
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Pox (BG Chalice Depths and Rack Pox)
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Sigarda, Host of Herons enchantress French EDH
Griselbrand monoblack control French EDH
It's just 8 fetches + kruphix and now with your reliquaries?
Add in the fact that you've got a lot of high costing spells (5cmc+) in your deck and cobra just seems like a beast to me.
What's wrong with Knight of the Reliquary? She's a great beater that fixes my lands and thins them out of my deck.
As far as Lotus Cobra goes:
The majority of people take out Arbor Elf in the first couple turns. It can't survive much, and it's pretty easy to hate off of the board. This means, the majority of the time, I have to work off of my second turn mana dork(Sylvan Caryatid). Now, with all the burn and U/R builds going off in the meta, we need creatures that can stick around after 2-3 damage. Lotus Cobra sitting next to an Arbor Elf is an opponents dream when he/she has an Electrolyze, Arc Trail, etc., in their hand.
With that said, I know that it's important to have a mana dork that can stick around so you aren't stuck dropping just lands each turn until you die.
Oh no, I wasn't trying to say I thought there was anything wrong with your Reliquary. I LOVE Reliquary and love seeing it in lists cause I think that card is underplayed!
And points well made to everything I mentioned!
I'm loving your deck
With the amount of burn/delver decks going around, I think the Spike Feeder + Archangel of Thune combo will win you SO many games that I think it should be included mainboard over KoTR. You could even go 1-1 with them but I think that synergy is too good to pass up.
KoTR has kept me alive so many times by being able to block just about any creature while pumping itself up. I really don't think that Spike Feeder could promote longevity like her because it's too vulnerable to burn and removal. Don't get me wrong, KoTR can get hit by plenty of things as well. But I feel she can survive a lot more while still giving the opponent the same clock that the Feeder+Archangel combo does.
Oh no, I wasn't trying to say I thought there was anything wrong with your Reliquary. I LOVE Reliquary and love seeing it in lists cause I think that card is underplayed!
And points well made to everything I mentioned!
I'm loving your deck
Thanks sir, I appreciate it.
I can't remember who mentioned something about utility lands, but I took a look at a few and didn't find much other than Spinerock Knoll and Windbrisk Heights.
Any other suggestions?
You have a point, but he's playing a meta deck full of relatively large angels. It might not be a horrible idea to have something like that available in case of a board wipe (they do happen from time to time). It was only a suggestion. Gavony township was also something I could have listed that is probably bad for this deck, but it does see fringe play, too. I am curious as to how testing is going? What are the positive matches?
I haven't put too much time into finding utility lands, but I've been able to test the deck out a bit more on Magic Workstation. Here are some matchups:
Good matchups:
-Burn: Bolt only effects Arbor Elf... So, most of the time, I got to eat it to the face. When that wasn't the case, I'd see multiple burn spells targeting one creature. A few people tried to race my clock by sending all burn available at me, rather than taking out my creatures. The deck is consistent enough to be able to win a majority of the time, but sometimes, your opening hand just isn't there. Which, let's face it, happens with every magic deck in existence.
Angels>Burn
13-2
-UR(/G)Delver: well now. The most used deck on MWS. People who were using Delver decks Hated playing against these angels. Delver couldn't get through. They just had weak burn other than Bolt. Spell Snare? It hits only a couple cards. Same with Spell Pierce. Cryptics were annoying(if they even played them), but that was about it. I found myself siding in Chalice a lot in this matchup. Boros Charm works quite well for saving Arbor Elf and Caryatid when Anger of the Gods shows up.
Angels>Delver
9-2
Zoo- Chalice on 1 or two? Don't mind if I do. After that, Zoo doesn't really have much game. The deck I played against only had two Destructive Revelry in the sideboard(not sure if that's normal or not), and couldn't find them or recover from the blow. Game one against this deck is still a pretty decent matchup in our favor. They don't have much when it comes to removal. When Caryatid, Courser and friends start hitting the battlefield ,they give you plenty of stall time against the cute lil' one-drops of this deck.
Angels>Zoo
6-1
URTwin- I played against the all-in version a few times, but haven't matched up against the RUG TarmoTwin deck yet. I saw this deck doing a lot of nothing on the first few turns. A Flame Slash happened to my Courser once on their turn 2... Umm, they drew some cards. Can't forget about that. But, it's turns 3 and 4 that get things done for twin, and those turns we're when I was the most nervous. The majority of the time though, they ended up digging more on those turns. So, I've got to admit that Twin is one of the best Durdle decks I've ever seen. Games 2 & 3 weren't very nerve-wracking, as I'd side in all my Beast Withins and Destructive Revelrys. The mixture of those two, along with Boros Charm, made it pretty tough for Twins clock to beat mine.
Angels>Twin
8-2
GRTron-Tron had one problem against this deck: No flying. Karn was easy to take out. Wurmcoil was a little annoying, but nothing I couldn't deal with. And.. That was about all the threats i saw these decks produce( one deck showed me a Prime Time, another deck dropped and Inferno Titan, but not sure if these are actually played in this deck or if it was personal preference). I can also say that my ramp system is more consistent than Trons, which is another reason why this was a good matchup in this decks favor.
Angels>Tron
6-1
GBRock- I'm not sure if this should be in the good matchup section, or 50-50. I beat this deck the majority of the time, but mostly by forcing a game 3. It seemed like I needed a Lot of my sideboard to compete with this deck, and that made the Matchups take a while. These genre of decks really made me think about each turn and how to best set up the next one. They run a lot of creature removal, so that was pretty frustrating to deal with. But, eventually, a decent amount of the decks couldn't keep up when it came to late game and their lack of fliers. I won the top-decking battle against this deck most of the time, and the games came down to a lot of "lucky draws".
Angels>The Rock
7-3
50/50 matchups:
-Jund- Thoughtseize is rough to deal with, but IoK doesn't do too much(unless it follows or is followed by a Thoughtseize). Abrupt Decay doesn't really matter too much, either. The only things it can hit are Arbor elf, Utopia Sprawl, and Courser. The decks I played didn't have any fliers, so it wasn't much of a problem to push through damage if I could get to that part. Liliana was a problem in a few of the matches, and won the opposition a decent amount of games when I didn't hit a Sigarda or Leyline. I learned that Chalice is hated on pretty hard by Jund players, along with Leyline. The games I managed to distract them with those cards, I won.
Angels-Jund
3-3
-UWRcontrol- these matchups made me wish I didn't drop Cavern of Souls. Once again, the burn aspect of the deck was more or less neutralized. Cryptic Command delayed the game just long enough for my opponent to win on a couple games with me keeping mediocre hands that I probably shouldn't have kept. I misplayed a lot against this deck, and I blame myself for how bad I did against it. Not to mention that very few cards in my board helped in this matchup. I used Beast Within a lot to take out lands, and that seemed to help. I'm going to have to try this matchup again and see if I can't improve the record just by making better choices.
Angels-UWRControl
2-2
Affinity- sometimes, Affinity is friggin' lightning fast and there isn't much you can do about it. Other times, it spits, sputters, and keels over all on its own. Chalice helped, so did Destructive Revelry and Beast Within. This was also one of the few matchups where I took out Boros Charm.
Angels>Affinity
3-2
Pod- I thought this was going to be an easier matchup, but pods ability to pull out fliers at the right times kind of messed with me. Now that I look back, if I just would've used Boros Charm to give Double strike, I could've won a decent amount of the close matches that I lost.
Angels>Pod
5-4
Scapeshift- this deck made my mind up on whether or not Remand and Cryptic Command go hand in hand with each other. My conclusion: of course they do. Second turn Remand followed by Cryptic command on turn 3 is just too much to try and recover from. Most of the other cards didn't do jack against the Angels main, so that makes me feel like I'm on the right track. Leyline of Sanctity shut down Scapeshift pretty well when I had it on the board, and i lost when I didn't see it throughout the game.
Angels-Scapeshift
5-5
Poor Matchups:
BWTokens- stupid flying tokens and always having chump blockers.
Angels<Tokens
3-4
UBFaeries- once again, stupid flying tokens. But wait, with Faeries there's more! Counters. Thoughtseizes. Bounce. Creature removal. Did I mention fliers and Bitterblossom? Everything the Angel deck hates, crammed into one. A couple of the lists even had a splash of W for Path to Exile.
Angels<Faeries
4-6
NOTE: Please keep in mind that I didn't see the opposing decks lists, I played each deck mentioned at least 4 times, and all my research has been based off of what I saw and how the matches played out. So, my data could be against players that have just started playing the deck rather than experienced pilot. Also, each marked win(or loss) was an actual matchup(best of 3).
To sum up my testing experience, it seems like we need Anger of the GodsSomewhere in the 75. It's horrifying to know that this deck can get shut down by dinky little flying tokens long enough for a major board wipe like Supreme Verdict or Damnation to take all my creatures out(unless I have a charm).
also, I feel this deck needs some draw. But, once again, there are no available slots. I've decided that dropping a Garruk and moving a Boros Charm to the SB will be the easiest way to free up two slots in main. Then, drop Sigarda because Leyline of Sanctity basically covers most of what I use her for.
So, I've got 2 spots freed up in my main, and one in the SB. I feel that draw should take precedence over Anger,so that was easy to figure out. But, the tough thing to determine is what draw to use. Harmonize is nice for late game, but that's about all I can think of other than Reforge the Soul.
Any suggestions?
American control,scapeshift, and jund are matches that are pretty weak to blood moon (affinity, too, sometimes if you drop it soon enough). Drop that on them after they counter an angel and likely they'll scoop. The other matches that are poor, affinity and faeries, both have some issue with volcanic fallout rather than anger of the gods. I think the instant speed pyroclasm would be pretty useful and it does give counterspells the middle finger.
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4 Arbor Elf
4 Lotus Cobra
4 Courser of Kruphix
2 Spike Feeder
3 Archangel of Thune
4 Baneslayer Angel
3 Aurelia, the Warleader
2 Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
4 Utopia Sprawl
3 Boros Charm
2 Beast Within
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
Land(22):
4 Wooded Foothills
4 windswept Heath
2 Temple Garden
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
1 Rugged Prairie
1 Wooded Bastion
2 Raging Ravine
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Plains
We tried to keep the mana dorks to a minimum, while still having an effective ramp system to drop Archangel of Thune on turn three or four, followed by Aurelia, the Warleader for a lethal swing the turn she hits the board.
Courser and Archangel are pretty mean together. But add in fetches, and that makes for a quick and inexpensive way to net +1/+1 counters along with gaining life. Life gain is a great way to make a burn player hate the matchup. Baneslayer is added Lifelink, which helps out my board even more when Archangel is around.
Boros Charms are clutch in preserving the board presence that you work on building for the first few turns, and every creature(barring the mana dorks) passes The Bolt Test.
Garruk helps ramp up to the proper mana if your dorks don't stick around, and he also provides chump blockers if you need them.
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Destructive Revelry
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Blood Moon
2 Volcanic Fallout
RWUUnder ConstructionUWR
WUBUnder ConstructionBUW
UWGUnder ConstructionGWU
WRBUnder Construction
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
We originally discussed Lotus Cobra over Sylvan Caryatid, but Cobra has a Bolt problem. As soon as people see it hit the board, they turn it into snake stew. That's why we decided to go with Caryatid. It doesn't have to worry about Most spot removal and burn, other than Anger of the Gods and the classic sweepers.
you'd be surprised how many times Xenagos gave me the last one or two mana I needed to drop an angel, but Garruk would've don't the same thing. Dropping a Xenagos for a final Garruk would be ideal, and a second for the last Courser would be a good decision as well.
You say drop the last Xenagos for another Baneslayer?
Or would another Archangel of Thune be more dominant?
With how much I already see Courser(he loves this deck), I think another Archangel would be the best bet. I've also been thinking of dropping the Sigardas into the sideboard and finding a different creature that has more board presence(while still, hopefully, hexproof), or maybe some Primal Commands. Any suggestions on that idea?
On the archangel, remember each instance of landfall (ok, not landfall, but play land trigger) of the courser will trigger it. Now, what is easier to cast? a 2nd courser or a second archangel?
A creature with stronger board presence? Linvala, keeper of silence, maybe?
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
New list to be tested tonight:
4 Arbor Elf
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
3 Archangel of Thune
4 Baneslayer Angel
2 Sigarda, Host of Herons
3 Aurelia, the Warleader
2 Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Spells(12):
4 Boros Charm
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Wooded Foothills
4 windswept Heath
2 Temple Garden
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
1 Rugged Prairie
2 Wooded Bastion
2 Raging Ravine
1 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Plains
1 Archangel of Thune
2 Baneslayer Angel
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Destructive Revelry
4 Selesnya Charm
Any changes you don't agree with?
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
UWR Jeskai Control
GWU Bant Control (Needs to be built)
EDH:
Ulamog, The Infinite Gyre
RGWUB Sliver Surprise
The newest deck list:
4 Arbor Elf
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
3 Archangel of Thune
4 Baneslayer Angel
2 Sigarda, Host of Herons
3 Aurelia, the Warleader
2 Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Spells(12):
4 Boros Charm
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Wooded Foothills
4 windswept Heath
2 Temple Garden
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
1 Rugged Prairie
1 Wooded Bastion
3 Cavern of Souls
1 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Plains
4 Beast Within
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Destructive Revelry
4 Leyline of Sanctity
As you can see, I came to the Same conclusion you did on Leyline of Sanctity. I also removed the Selesnya Charms for Beast Within, and it now looks like I can handle a lot more matchups with ease. Well, not with ease. But I'll at least have a couple answers for what they're trying to do.
UPDATE:
The deck is running pretty smooth, and doesn't have much of a problem with spot removal. Most decks use things that deal damage or give -X/-X until end of turn to try and get rid of things they don't like, other than the one or two actual creature removal spells main-decked in most top tier decks. Dismember seems to put in the most work against this Angels deck, but it comes at a pretty rough price on turn 2 or 3(paying 2-4 life) to deal with a Courser of Kruphix, which is a prime early-game target for removal.
After a friend helped me test out the Angels, I found that each time Sigarda, Host of Herons was in my opening hand, I wanted it to be a 3-drop creature(Courser5-7). When I drew into her, I found myself thinking, "This should be a Primeval Titan. This morning, I decided to search out 3-drops that I could use in this deck while moving Sigarda to the sideboard(she really does help in certain matchups).
Here the list of creatures I narrowed the list down to:
Knight of the Reliquary
Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers
Burning-Tree Shaman
Personally, I feel that Knight of the Reliquary would be awesome for this deck. Already running 8 fetch-lands, it could beat out Bolt easy enough. Plus, it would let you fix your mana if need be. All in all, I feel it would be a solid upgrade.
Cavaliers is just a beater/blocker that can beat out bolt. That's why he made the list, and the only reason to be completely honest.
Shaman would end up dealing the pilot of this deck a decent amount of damage, which isn't very advantageous. But, who Knows how much damage he could deal to your opponents. And a 3/4 body is always nice.
After I tested the deck list and saw what KotR was able to do, I decided not to test the other options. It makes the deck run really smooth when she's on the board, along with drawing lots of removal. That's key to me because I don't want them to save their Go for the Throats(or whatever it is they might be using) for my angels if I don't happen to have a Boros Charm in hand or open mana.
Updated Naya deck list:
4 Arbor Elf
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
2 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Archangel of Thune
4 Baneslayer Angel
3 Aurelia, the Warleader
2 Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Spells(12):
4 Boros Charm
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Wooded Foothills
4 windswept Heath
2 Temple Garden
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
1 Rugged Prairie
2 Wooded Bastion
2 Raging Ravine
1 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Plains
3 Beast Within
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Destructive Revelry
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Sigarda, Host of Herons
I took out the caverns. They weren't doing anything but getting in the way and messing with my mana base.
I understand wanting to avoid net decking and bring something new to the table but I feel that sacking finks to a pod and getting resto to blink finks is exactly what you want to do with this deck.
Or you could play a white green counter meta deck that consists of a lot of life gain and creatures that don't get really screwed by lighting bolt
8 dorks
Loving this deck though! Looks really solid to me.
The only real suggestion I have is a pretty dang pricey one...but one I think does a LOT for the deck.
-4 Arbor Elf
+4 Noble Hierarch
Also...I really do think you should reconsider cobra over caryatid...though I do understand your fears of cobra being so fragile.
It's just 8 fetches + kruphix and now with your reliquaries?
Add in the fact that you've got a lot of high costing spells (5cmc+) in your deck and cobra just seems like a beast to me.
Angel Pod is so far away from what we're trying to accomplish. Regardless, both decks have a 4-turn clock. So there's no point in changing over to Angel Pod. Especially seeing as how most all of Angel Pods creatures can be bolted off of the field(except Wall of Roots, Archangel of Thune and one other[5 creatures total]). and that's the complete opposite of what we're trying to do.
Thanks, I appreciate your interest in it.
I can only get one mana out of Hierarch.
Arbor elf gives me one, two, sometimes three mana each turn. Plus, it doesn't cost $70 a pop. On top of all that, Hierarch doesn't really do much of anything for the deck other than provide a G OR W each turn, considering I hardly ever attack with only one creature.
So, Arbor Elf is definitely staying in over Noble Hierarch. Not for budget reasons, but for overall value.
What's wrong with Knight of the Reliquary? She's a great beater that fixes my lands and thins them out of my deck.
As far as Lotus Cobra goes:
The majority of people take out Arbor Elf in the first couple turns. It can't survive much, and it's pretty easy to hate off of the board. This means, the majority of the time, I have to work off of my second turn mana dork(Sylvan Caryatid). Now, with all the burn and U/R builds going off in the meta, we need creatures that can stick around after 2-3 damage. Lotus Cobra sitting next to an Arbor Elf is an opponents dream when he/she has an Electrolyze, Arc Trail, etc., in their hand.
With that said, I know that it's important to have a mana dork that can stick around so you aren't stuck dropping just lands each turn until you die.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
The person that suggest cobra again wasn't saying anything wrong with KotR. They were trying to point out that since you made your decision you now have another land fetcher. So you may want to change your mind on cobra or wall.
Now that you have KotR you could consider some utility lands. Gardens is good as a 1 of in case of lilly. And they have a few good ones other than that. Leaving KotR untapped to fetch the protection land can lead to blowouts.
Finks does pass the bolt test... kind of. He could have a place MD if you are having any issues with burn.
O baloth is a good SB card for both burn and rock style decks also. They can activate lilly and you put him into play. Also gaining life and a 4/4 against burn can be a big deal when combined with other life gain.
Fertile ground probably shouldn't be considered over your wall. The wall is really only good should you get an untapper where the wall can always do its thing or blocks a good bit. Another choice that I strongly recommend is wall of roots. It blocks better than caratiyd. While also making mana. By the time it is too weak to block it should be mid to late game where you start dropping bombs. The only green mana part sucks but just as a ramp it is slightly better.
If you consider any of these suggestions then Restoration Angel looks to come in your deck also.
I can see where you're coming from, but I like the body on Caryatid. It helps out a lot against guides and other first turn 2/x'ers that people like to get a few good shots in with.
Fertile ground could lead to a lot more mana though, that's for sure(with a Garruk or Arbor Elf on the board).
I understand, but Cobra is still too prone to dying in today's meta. Don't get me wrong, Cobra has way more explosive potential than Caryatid, and would speed things up tremendously. But, I feel that Cobra just won't make it to that point enough to be useful.
Overall, it's a meta choice.
I like this suggestion a lot. I'll take a long look at what utility lands would function well in this deck and make up a list.
I've been thinking of putting some Kitchen Finks or Spike Feeders in the sideboard because I think they could definitely help against burn and other aggressive decks, but the sideboard is loaded. The only card, in my mind, that could be on the chopping block is KoTR. And I'm pretty sure that I'd rather have it in the main over Spike Feeder or Finks. But, only one way to find out. I'll test them both out and let you guys know what I think.
I like that Caryatid can produce a mana of any color, and that helps when it comes to dropping those mana-intense angels. I don't mind if it's tapped after I use it, because that usually means I have a different body to block with.
Pox (BG Chalice Depths and Rack Pox)
Soldier Stompy
EDH:
Darien, King of Kjeldor Soldier Tribal EDH
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant Zombie tribal EDH
Sigarda, Host of Herons enchantress French EDH
Griselbrand monoblack control French EDH
Modern:
G/W Enchanted Bogles
BGW Treefolk Tribal
Standard:
Villainous Wealth
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
Oh no, I wasn't trying to say I thought there was anything wrong with your Reliquary. I LOVE Reliquary and love seeing it in lists cause I think that card is underplayed!
And points well made to everything I mentioned!
I'm loving your deck
KoTR has kept me alive so many times by being able to block just about any creature while pumping itself up. I really don't think that Spike Feeder could promote longevity like her because it's too vulnerable to burn and removal. Don't get me wrong, KoTR can get hit by plenty of things as well. But I feel she can survive a lot more while still giving the opponent the same clock that the Feeder+Archangel combo does.
Thanks sir, I appreciate it.
I can't remember who mentioned something about utility lands, but I took a look at a few and didn't find much other than Spinerock Knoll and Windbrisk Heights.
Any other suggestions?
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
Good matchups:
-Burn: Bolt only effects Arbor Elf... So, most of the time, I got to eat it to the face. When that wasn't the case, I'd see multiple burn spells targeting one creature. A few people tried to race my clock by sending all burn available at me, rather than taking out my creatures. The deck is consistent enough to be able to win a majority of the time, but sometimes, your opening hand just isn't there. Which, let's face it, happens with every magic deck in existence.
Angels>Burn
13-2
-UR(/G)Delver: well now. The most used deck on MWS. People who were using Delver decks Hated playing against these angels. Delver couldn't get through. They just had weak burn other than Bolt. Spell Snare? It hits only a couple cards. Same with Spell Pierce. Cryptics were annoying(if they even played them), but that was about it. I found myself siding in Chalice a lot in this matchup. Boros Charm works quite well for saving Arbor Elf and Caryatid when Anger of the Gods shows up.
Angels>Delver
9-2
Zoo- Chalice on 1 or two? Don't mind if I do. After that, Zoo doesn't really have much game. The deck I played against only had two Destructive Revelry in the sideboard(not sure if that's normal or not), and couldn't find them or recover from the blow. Game one against this deck is still a pretty decent matchup in our favor. They don't have much when it comes to removal. When Caryatid, Courser and friends start hitting the battlefield ,they give you plenty of stall time against the cute lil' one-drops of this deck.
Angels>Zoo
6-1
URTwin- I played against the all-in version a few times, but haven't matched up against the RUG TarmoTwin deck yet. I saw this deck doing a lot of nothing on the first few turns. A Flame Slash happened to my Courser once on their turn 2... Umm, they drew some cards. Can't forget about that. But, it's turns 3 and 4 that get things done for twin, and those turns we're when I was the most nervous. The majority of the time though, they ended up digging more on those turns. So, I've got to admit that Twin is one of the best Durdle decks I've ever seen. Games 2 & 3 weren't very nerve-wracking, as I'd side in all my Beast Withins and Destructive Revelrys. The mixture of those two, along with Boros Charm, made it pretty tough for Twins clock to beat mine.
Angels>Twin
8-2
GRTron-Tron had one problem against this deck: No flying. Karn was easy to take out. Wurmcoil was a little annoying, but nothing I couldn't deal with. And.. That was about all the threats i saw these decks produce( one deck showed me a Prime Time, another deck dropped and Inferno Titan, but not sure if these are actually played in this deck or if it was personal preference). I can also say that my ramp system is more consistent than Trons, which is another reason why this was a good matchup in this decks favor.
Angels>Tron
6-1
GB Rock- I'm not sure if this should be in the good matchup section, or 50-50. I beat this deck the majority of the time, but mostly by forcing a game 3. It seemed like I needed a Lot of my sideboard to compete with this deck, and that made the Matchups take a while. These genre of decks really made me think about each turn and how to best set up the next one. They run a lot of creature removal, so that was pretty frustrating to deal with. But, eventually, a decent amount of the decks couldn't keep up when it came to late game and their lack of fliers. I won the top-decking battle against this deck most of the time, and the games came down to a lot of "lucky draws".
Angels>The Rock
7-3
50/50 matchups:
-Jund- Thoughtseize is rough to deal with, but IoK doesn't do too much(unless it follows or is followed by a Thoughtseize). Abrupt Decay doesn't really matter too much, either. The only things it can hit are Arbor elf, Utopia Sprawl, and Courser. The decks I played didn't have any fliers, so it wasn't much of a problem to push through damage if I could get to that part. Liliana was a problem in a few of the matches, and won the opposition a decent amount of games when I didn't hit a Sigarda or Leyline. I learned that Chalice is hated on pretty hard by Jund players, along with Leyline. The games I managed to distract them with those cards, I won.
Angels-Jund
3-3
-UWR control- these matchups made me wish I didn't drop Cavern of Souls. Once again, the burn aspect of the deck was more or less neutralized. Cryptic Command delayed the game just long enough for my opponent to win on a couple games with me keeping mediocre hands that I probably shouldn't have kept. I misplayed a lot against this deck, and I blame myself for how bad I did against it. Not to mention that very few cards in my board helped in this matchup. I used Beast Within a lot to take out lands, and that seemed to help. I'm going to have to try this matchup again and see if I can't improve the record just by making better choices.
Angels-UWRControl
2-2
Affinity- sometimes, Affinity is friggin' lightning fast and there isn't much you can do about it. Other times, it spits, sputters, and keels over all on its own. Chalice helped, so did Destructive Revelry and Beast Within. This was also one of the few matchups where I took out Boros Charm.
Angels>Affinity
3-2
Pod- I thought this was going to be an easier matchup, but pods ability to pull out fliers at the right times kind of messed with me. Now that I look back, if I just would've used Boros Charm to give Double strike, I could've won a decent amount of the close matches that I lost.
Angels>Pod
5-4
Scapeshift- this deck made my mind up on whether or not Remand and Cryptic Command go hand in hand with each other. My conclusion: of course they do. Second turn Remand followed by Cryptic command on turn 3 is just too much to try and recover from. Most of the other cards didn't do jack against the Angels main, so that makes me feel like I'm on the right track. Leyline of Sanctity shut down Scapeshift pretty well when I had it on the board, and i lost when I didn't see it throughout the game.
Angels-Scapeshift
5-5
Poor Matchups:
BWTokens- stupid flying tokens and always having chump blockers.
Angels<Tokens
3-4
UBFaeries- once again, stupid flying tokens. But wait, with Faeries there's more! Counters. Thoughtseizes. Bounce. Creature removal. Did I mention fliers and Bitterblossom? Everything the Angel deck hates, crammed into one. A couple of the lists even had a splash of W for Path to Exile.
Angels<Faeries
4-6
NOTE: Please keep in mind that I didn't see the opposing decks lists, I played each deck mentioned at least 4 times, and all my research has been based off of what I saw and how the matches played out. So, my data could be against players that have just started playing the deck rather than experienced pilot. Also, each marked win(or loss) was an actual matchup(best of 3).
also, I feel this deck needs some draw. But, once again, there are no available slots. I've decided that dropping a Garruk and moving a Boros Charm to the SB will be the easiest way to free up two slots in main. Then, drop Sigarda because Leyline of Sanctity basically covers most of what I use her for.
So, I've got 2 spots freed up in my main, and one in the SB. I feel that draw should take precedence over Anger,so that was easy to figure out. But, the tough thing to determine is what draw to use. Harmonize is nice for late game, but that's about all I can think of other than Reforge the Soul.
Any suggestions?
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!