This deck was recently piloted to a 6th place finish at SCG Premier IQ Worcester by Christopher Powell. It may a rogue deck and he may of just got lucky pairings or something of that nature. However, I love the look of this deck and ordered the few cards I was missing and plan to playtest the hell out of it. I've always liked the look of The Rack decks but I'm a Golgari player at heart. Here's the decklist and let me know what you guys think!
Loam pox is my favorite legacy deck and I've been trying to brew it in modern but have never been happy enough with a list to take it to FNM, so needless to say I'm VERY happy to see this deck make top 8 at a large event. It's really more of a life from the loam deck than a pox deck, but that's ok, I feel like it'd play in a similar way.
A couple obvious thoughts:
- 4x verdant catacombs over the mire/catacombs split. Surgical extraction is not seen enough to bother with the split since it's worse mana fixing.
- The list needs at minimum 1 basic swamp. Honestly, I think I'd want 2.
- I'm completely baffled that he didn't get color screwed all day. 14 sources of black is pretty light for a deck with smallpox and lili, and urborg doesn't help as much as one might think. More importantly, he only has EIGHT green sources. WTF? In legacy I'm running 19 black and 12 green and still have trouble with mana sometimes (usually BB is the problem). I guess he can ghost quarter himself for a forest, but that seems terrible and still only leaves 10 green sources.
- Bloodghast seems always better than gravecrawler... you're going to be playing a land every turn, it's free from the yard and will have haste to close out games.
I don't know... the whole deck just looks awkward. No targeted discard, minimal targeted removal, no early mana disruption. I feel like he got lucky, but then the guy who built this is a better magic player than me, so maybe I'm just not seeing the lines of play.
So I've been working with a similar list for a while now, and having amazing results with it--they hate it in the 8rack thread so I'm glad someone else is interested.
I do think the lands in the winning list in the OP need a little work, village would be an upgrade, so would a basic swamp over the leechriddens, but I get the inclusion of one or two. I have no idea why he ran mires before a full set of verdants, but who knows.
I may try a bit of that gravecrawler, ghast action, seems good!
So I've been working with a similar list for a while now, and having amazing results with it--they hate it in the 8rack thread so I'm glad someone else is interested.
I do think the lands in the winning list in the OP need a little work, village would be an upgrade, so would a basic swamp over the leechriddens, but I get the inclusion of one or two. I have no idea why he ran mires before a full set of verdants, but who knows.
I may try a bit of that gravecrawler, ghast action, seems good!
This is closer to what I've been thinking about. A couple bloodghast might be worth it to speed it up, and I love the idea of quicksand/life from the loam. Surgical extraction main is interesting, but I'm not sure if I think it'd be consistent enough with only 4x targeted removal. The drown in sorrow in the board seems a must. Keep on brewing!
I mean, I found that between smallpox and abrupt decay, you can keep most stuff that doesn't get discarded first off the board. Everything else can be chumped by zombies/recurring manlands until you can squeak out the win. Liliana also EBT ticks down quite often in my list.
I am thinking about taking out a rack and....something to fit in a slaughter pact or two. Pod has occasionally snuck out a restoration angel on me and that can be sorta killer.
Drown in sorrow BTW is a total house and I love it. A singleton golgari charm might also be helpful, but I do like drown because it hits affinity even after a steelshaper activation, everything early out of pod, infect, and delver + a scry.
I'm Christopher Powell, I am excited to see that people are taking an interest in my list. People at star city wanted to do a tech deck but it was determined that there was 3 tournaments going on at the same time so they decided to pass. I would be happy to let anyone in on some of my card choices and provide feedback in regards to my match ups throughout the night.
I split the fetches as well as my reason to go 3/3 for the creatures cause I have never played modern before this tourney and thought extraction might be a thing. It actually worked out well cause the turn 1 gravecrawler's helped me race in quite a few matches. I lost round 1 of top 8 to Humphries who was later determined to be cheating after the fact... Bummer. I went 5-0 and drew in the 6th and 7th rounds.
I played affinity I think it was round 3 or 4 and won with ensnaring bridge, I was at 8 poison when I played it and won off of rack damage with Lilly support. But yeah, overall affinity is a rough paring.
I was gonna run thoughtseize but I wanted to keep with the raven's crime theme for rack support (80+% of my games were won off of rack) and I didn't have the money for thoughtseize either and everything IoK hits can be dealt with by abrupt decay. I mostly wanted to be able to deal with pod. Cash problems is also the reason I did a 2/2 split with the fetch lands... 2 mires were cheaper then 4 catacombs. I built/played this deck because when I had my legacy list for loam pox in my scg cart and it totaled $3,700 so I built this list for about $650 (including preregistration and some misc supplies)
Gravecrawler in Ernest never dealt more then 6 damage in any game but to be fair neither did Bloodghast, any game where I had an early creature I played ensnaring bridge a couple turns later. Bridge is responsable for somewhere between 40-65% of game I won simply because my opponent had no answers to it and Lilly would keep my hand empty, the 2 key rounds it won that I otherwise wouldn't have was against splinter twin (my opponent ended up putting twin on snapcaster Mage to double up on burn spells but couldn't get there) and affinity which has 0 answers to it and just draws and goes. The rack actually won every game I played, so I would recommend Jukai at least make room for another buried ruin cause when dredging it's the closest thing you have to a tutor. I use it to recur Pithing needles and bridge as well. I never had a match where I felt it was okay to side out my bridge and 4 out of every 5 sideboards I brought the 2nd in. Your mana base is solid but buried ruin and even quicksand have a lot of pull. I had a few opponents sitting on x/2, or x/1 walkers who couldn't deal damage because of a recurring quicksand and it even saved me one game by shrinking a 2/2 into a 1/1 leaving me at 1 life to win off of rack damage next turn. Bridge was even better then that though. You have a solid manabase at the expense of utility, could work, I got lucky in the sense that people where unaware of my list so I wasn't quartered all day but have already made adjustments for that. Leechridden Swamp is another utility land that pulled its weight (and can be fetched too). I get home at 10-10:30 tonight and will give a rundown of my opponents and my tricks and such then (I took a lot of notes having never played modern before and assuming I would do poorly and wanting to make improvements for the next tourney)
This might be too grindy of a method, but what about the addition of like 2x Haunted Fengraf and 2x Eternal Witness to make every card a live card in the grave? Bloodghasts could still be played as they all come into play just by playing a land, or they could be taken out to add more silver bullets for Eternal Witness to grab.
Additionally, how well would something like Death Cloud slot in to the deck? I feel like it would just seal the coffin so to speak late game, though it might be unnecessary.
Here I am, I will go through my decklist and sideboard and give my reasoning behind my choices and tell about my matchups and what worked and what didn't. As well as some changes I plan to make for it's next outing.
So main board,
Creatures: 3 Bloodghast, 3 Gravercrawlers
This was the first modern tourney I ever played in local or otherwise so unfamiliar with what other popular decks ran (I also just got back into magic this month after selling all my cards last year) I thought A: I didn't want extraction effects to remove all my creatures and B: overall 6 recurring creatures would be better then 4 so I decided to split the differnce. (I came in 16th at a legacy SCG open with mono black smallpox using gravecrawler's as a clock in my 1st ever non Local Game Store tourney so I thought it might work here as well too) both cards are prime discard choices as bringing them back is easy as pie (from the store, homemade pies may require some effort) (gravecrawler's and Bloodghast's alike failed to do any significant damage and the Bloodghast's recur a lot easier so I think I'll run 0/4 in favor of the vampire in the near future)
Planeswalkers: 4 liliana of the veil
If you don't know why she's on the list then your in the wrong thread.
I usually ramp her up to keep opponents in top deck mode which benefits me being able to retreve relevant lands and cast my kill cards from the yard when dredging. I plan on running 4 until one of two things happen: A she gets banned :-( or B: I'm allowed to play with more then 4
Artifacts: 3 the rack, 1 ensnaring bridge
The rack has actully won me nearly every game I played except 1 where my Leechridden Swamp knocked it out of the park. 3 is a good number for me as I tend to dredge every chance I get and my buried ruins can retreve them for me (I run 3 ruins btw) if u run a lower buried ruins count maybe going up to 4 the racks would be more useful. Although I didn't play against any, it's worth noting that the rack can deal damage to planeswalkers so it would've been my primary method of getting through them as well. Ensnaring bridge hasn't so much won me games as it has prevented decks with no efficient way of removing it from winning. I actually sideboarded the 2nd in 4 of the five rounds I won (to be fair to bride I would've brought it in in the 5th but my opponent got a game 1 loss for forgetting to fill out his sideboard and I won the first game we played without my sideboard) as often as it's saved me and I brought in the 2nd I feel like maybe I should just make room for 2 mainboard, we'll see if I can get the numbers to work. Bridge works wonders with Lilly and casting loam to get 2 lands in hand, attack with zombies/vampires, then discard to Lilly/retrace raven's crime can let you get in attacks through bridge, it's your card, play around it.
Enchantments: 3 waste not
I've been dreaming about this card since I voted for it in "you make the card" and it proved very effective. The earlier you put it down generally the more use you'll get out of it and the happier you'll be. The mana use it gives turns off when you have a Lilly in play and no cards to cast. Generally I used to 2/2 bodies to block only swinging the in on an open field. Also keep in mind that you can cast gravecrawler'sHere I am, I will go through my decklist and sideboard and give my reasoning behind my choices and tell about my matchups and what worked and what didn't. As well as some changes I plan to make for it's next outing.
So main board,
Creatures: 3 Bloodghast, 3 Gravercrawlers
This was the first modern tourney I ever played in local or otherwise so unfamiliar with what other popular decks ran (I also just got back into magic this month after selling all my cards last year) I thought A: I didn't want extraction effects to remove all my creatures and B: overall 6 recurring creatures would be better then 4 so I decided to split the differnce. (I came in 16th at a legacy SCG open with mono black smallpox using gravecrawler's as a clock in my 1st ever non Local Game Store tourney so I thought it might work here as well too) gravecrawler's and Bloodghast's alike failed to do any significant damage and the Bloodghast's recur a lot easier so I think I'll run 0/4 in favor of the vampire in the near future)
Planeswalkers: 4 liliana of the veil
If you don't know why she's on the list then your in the wrong thread.
I usually ramp her up to keep opponents in top deck mode which benefits me being able to retreve relevant lands and cast my kill cards from the yard when dredging. I plan on running 4 until one of two things happen: A she gets banned :-( or B: I'm allowed to play with more then 4
Artifacts: 3 the rack, 1 ensnaring bridge
The rack has actully won me nearly every game I played except 1 where my Leechridden Swamp knocked it out of the park. 3 is a good number for me as I tend to dredge every chance I get and my buried ruins can retreve them for me (I run 3 ruins btw) if u run a lower buried ruins count maybe going up to 4 the racks would be more useful. Although I didn't play against any, it's worth noting that the rack can deal damage to planeswalkers so it would've been my primary method of getting through them as well. Ensnaring bridge hasn't so much won me games as it has prevented decks with no efficient way of removing it from winning. I actually sideboarded the 2nd in 4 of the five rounds I won (to be fair to bride I would've brought it in in the 5th but my opponent got a game 1 loss for forgetting to fill out his sideboard and I won the first game we played without my sideboard) as often as it's saved me and I brought in the 2nd I feel like maybe I should just make room for 2 mainboard, we'll see if I can get the numbers to work. Bridge works wonders with Lilly and casting loam to get 2 lands in hand, attack with zombies/vampires, then discard to Lilly/retrace raven's crime can let you get back to hellbent, bridge is your card, play around it.
Enchantments: 3 waste not
I have been daydreaming about this card ever since I voted for it in "you make the card"
Waste not is generally more useful the sooner it hits the table. Later in the game when Lilly and raven's crime are doing their jobs it's mana gift becomes near useless as you are likely in top deck mode. The 2/2 bodies I generally reserve for blocking swinging in only when the road is clear, it's good to note that gravecrawlers can be cast from your graveyard off of the tokens without the presence of mutavaults. I'm a little bitter sweet about the cantrip as the only time any opponent discarded a noncreature, nonland card was when I had bridge in play and they were hoping to get through with a body, I also got my hellbent back (once even needing to ravens crime myself) but it never seemed like a useless or dead card. Also worth noting waste not triggers on cards like faithless looting and lighthouse land (I faced the land but can't recall the name of the land the has 1UR T: draw a card and discard a card.
I think 3 is the number I will stick to unless I move to targeted mono black smallpox with a couple of 2 for 1 cards as well.
Sorcerys: 3 raven's crime, 1 worm harvest, 4 life from the loam, 4 smallpox
The raven's crime pulled it's weight around more after my first loam when I could recur it 1 to 3 times a turn, although it's not targeted the notion that you can do it as often as you need is very helpful, many opponents will try their best to stop Lilly (with counter magic) but no one will waste a discard spell on raven's crime cause the can just bin the counter and save the mana. I had one instance early game where I ravens crimed myself to bin a Bloodghast and only 1 black source opening hand and he eventually got through for 6, I won that game with only 2 life left so that could've gone another way without that. Worm harvest should've been great other then I had such presence most of my games that I won either before it got dredged of before I hit 5 land. It's not really a dead card in your opening hand as you can easily pitch it for later use. 2 could definitely work to make room for a targeted discard spell but I really liked having 3, the trade off is guaranteeing to take a threat vs keeping them in too deck mode which is what I hoped to accomplish and I did so well. Again rack just wins games. There's is no reason to not run at least 1 and I feel like more would be dead cards solely for pitching and it would be better to have other cards to actually use. I use a full set of life from the loams to get one as early as possible. With support from loam you can recur Mutavault's for blocking, quicksands for stalling (most people refused to attack into the sand with anything it could kill and I prolonged a game by reducing a 3/3 into a 2/1 over 3 turns I won that game with 1 life left after dredging into a bridge to win off of rack) and recurring raven's crime to hellbent an opponent. If u have liliana Onassis roll you can discard a loamed land if you have a card you want to use later (abrupt decay in my instance). There is no good reason I can see to not run 4. Smallpox is the card with the most bang for it's buck, slows mana development removes creatures without targeting, and grinds out a hand, this deck can reuse most of the cards it pitches, it's lands, and all of its creatures so it's effect on you is minimal. Best played on turn 2 when an opponent has a dork in play, it's a very easy card to plan to play around if your it's caster. No reason not to run 4.
Instants: 4 abrupt decay, 1 Darkblast
Abrupt decay handles most early threats and cannot be countered, if it could also hit pod it would be a perfect card.
If I were to run targeted discard I would choose thoughtseize over IoK as decay knocks off everything IoK his save Geist with his hexproof (it's worth noting the decay does hit his angelic friend though). No real reason not to run 4.
Dark blast can pick off annoying little x/1's and occasionally an x/2 during your turn. It is almost never a good idea to dredge it back until you have at least 1 green source in play. I run 1, I can se people running more but wouldn't go higher then 2.
Land:
3 overgrown tomb:
1 Forest:
I was at first going to run 4 tomb until it occurred to me that if 1 tomb gets extracted I would have no green sources so this was the way for me to go, plus I felt I should have a least 1 basic land to fetch off of opposing ghost quarters or even path to exiles. The deck worked really well for me in part because it was a custom list and one too many time I watched an opponent sit on 2 ghost quarters while I had 1 green source in play not knowing they could cut me off from loam... And I am well aware, I will only get away with that once, my next list will have at least 2 basic lands for that very reason (1/1 probably).
3 buried ruin: I could have probably have gotten away with 2 but 1 is just too few, being able to dredge and retrieve utility artifacts such as the rack (for the win), ensnaring bridge (to survive), or Pithing needles to shut down opponent key cards (in theory, I never needed needle before pod in top 8 and didn't see it against Kikipod opponent actually stacked the deck and was caught cheating after the fact (a whole day later so nothing could be done), I never thought of using batterskull but I bet that no one here would attempt to use it if it weren't for at least 1 copy of buried ruin. I may go down to 2 in favor of a woodland cemetery for mana fixing, I did not regret having 3 though, it pulled it's weight all day.
2 bloodstained mire:
2 verdant catacombs:
I split the dual lands for 2 particular reasons A: cost mires were $8-$13 cheaper then catacombs and I started the day with 4 mires and sold the few cards I had from another deck to get enough cash to pick up the 2 catacombs, and B: havering never played modern before I wrongly assumed that extraction effects would be prevalent and they "WOULD" screw over my deck.
1 Bojuka bog: grave yard hate, keep in mind you can ghost quarter it yourself to recur it with loam, I didn't have to but just in case.
3 Leechridden swamp: 1 loss of life that can be fetched for, I do plan on going down to 2 and tuning a basic swamp but generally pulls it's weight, coming into play tapped though was only a problem for 2 or 3 games, I didn't have to mulligan a hand with them as I only have raven's crime, gracecrawlers, and racks that cost 1 so I can typically play around even 2 in my opening hand (3 in a starting hand is unacceptable though as I really need Lilly in play as often as possible.
2 quicksand: keeps walkers at bay, thiala will not swing into it, neither will anything else in death and taxes, nothing but the golem token and taking 1 less damage from the golem each turn bought me enough time to get a bridge and rack damage prevails (I cannot stress how great those 2 cards are together)
3 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth: let's every land in play taps for black (your opponents too) but is a great mana fixer in terms of getting colored mana from your utility lands. Only being able to have one in play at a time makes me run 3 but if you can make 4 work power to ya (keep in mind you and play one with one in play tapping the first and sacrificing the tapped one and then the untapped one for a total of BB to your pool (I do not recommend keeping a hand with only 2 urborg but I have with a third land and it worked out fine.)
2 ghost quarter: 4 functions, A: disrupts opponents manabase (splitting a dual land or even wastelanding greedy decks) B: can quarter your own land to fetch the sole forest in a pinch (now a swamp as well), C: colonnade's worst enemy, and D: quartering your own Bojuka bog to recur it.
4 mutavault: manlands hide from day of judgements and stick around after smallpox (usually) and serve to be a recurring chump blocker, and to recur gravecrawlers they have what it takes to hammer in that last couple of points but he spent a lot of time on defense at this tourney for me.
Sideboard choices: (keep in mind that before this tourney I have never played modern before so I just planned for as much as I could, there are likely cards that exist that are either more relevant then these, do the job better, of that I simply don't know about)
1 ensnaring bridge: every single chance I got to sideboard it came in, I really want to make room for him mainboard even at the expense of running a 61 card deck (...yea it's that good, he really is racks best friend)
3 maelstrom pulse: hits any not shroud/hexproof/land permanent and hits copy's as well, I brought him in a few times but only got to use him once, one game hit 2 signal pests and the next hit 3 (...yes I was very proud)
2 Pithing needle: I'm sure it hits relevant things but I use it to stop twin/pod decks but any card with an activated ability and be stopped. An recur with buried ruin which as close as I can get to a tutor.
2 torpor orb: same as above, twin/pod hate, with pod stops both finx life gain and Kiki tokens (exarch and such) stop an pod from using restoration angel to reuse pod.
3 killing wave: I really wanted damnation but at $2 a card was much more affordable then $40 a card. Maybe if an opponent chose to pay for the creatures it would be relevant but who knows, when I did side it in I never saw it.
2 bow of neyla: again it's a choice for not knowing the meta, making a bigger creature fear of death via blocking a 1/1 is potant, shocking a flyer is relevant vs delver, 3 life can help you race tempo and burn, +1+1 counters matter more on mutavault, and if someone attempts to extract a key card I can hide it for later use. I never brought him in fearing being able to produce GG if it really mattered so I have plans to replace.
2 extractor demons: seems good vs decks that play at a slower pace (especially ones that hide behind counter magic) cannot be countered (save for trickbind) and can be dredged and swing for lava axe damage) never had to use him and other cards could've been more useful)
I plan to take out the 2 demons and bows for some tech for pod/twin
In 4 Batwing Brumes for your own notes be aware that that trick will only work once, after losing to a million point brume swing most opponents will swing in smaller batches.
I started this post at 10:42pm and finished at 2:27am so I will post my actual matches tomorrow night but indicated bits and pieces here. I had to type this whole thing on my phone please hold the spelling/grammar comments, thanks
(new to this forum so I can only post links like this^^)
How do you fair against Treasure cruise, the bane of discard decks at the moment? I tested your list with some changes (similar to Jukai's list with 4 Thoughtsieze and 2 Bridge in the main) against U/R delver.
If they resolve a Cruise it feels as if all my work has been undone. Especially since the deck can function with 2-3 lands. And with a young pyromancer out smallpox gets a lot worse.
I also had problems against burn. Even on the play, smallpox turn 2 killing their Goblin Guide and getting Lilly down turn 4 i had a hard time. With burn splashing blue for cruise they seldom run out of steam and my clock wasn't fast enough, even if i could slow them down with hand and land disrupt.
But those were really the only matchups that I struggled with and with a bit of tuning this deck looks really promising.
I will be testing a list that runs the full 4 Briges and less creatures.
Of course I'm new to this deck and not totally comfortable playing it coming from a 8rack deck, that has way more targeted discard and no dregde as main card advantage.
I don't think you want to be playing duress against the field that isn't burn decks. Burn in paper is more popular than it wasn't before, but I don't want duress against Jund/pod/delver, ect. Besides Raven's crime/loam is better post turn 1.
I would also avoid talking about what 'works' in 8rack, its a suboptimally build deck that folds to clocks on board and decks with answers to bridge. You shouldn't be playing 20 discard spells, its simply poorly designed and stubbornly defended. You're both nice posters, and I understand the contributions by likening it to 8rack. In this particular case, pack rat does the same thing as gravecrawler/bloodghast, but costs more cards and resources and doesn't interface as well with the dredge plan.
Against burn, which is a problem, I've been running leylines and baloths--pretty much works out for me. Lilianas pitching dead leylines has been good enough considering I can't cast them.
I fully agree that 8rack is a subpar deck at the moment. That's why im curious how the deck matches up against decks that rack is usually weak against. Would never suggest to run a full discard suite or pack rat.
I tried out baloth and leylines. I had some issues getting double green reliable, but laylines are really nice since you tend to dredge most of the time so drawing them later in the game isn't that relevant.
I played around with lifegain lands play->sac-> loam-> repeat. It works well in bloom titan but there you can tutor for the lands so it's probably to cute:)
Soooo, top 4 today at LGS, chopped which I was greatful for because I faced first round of top 4 the only deck I lost to all day (splinter twin with mainboard blood moons), I do well against cruise having the 3 raven's crime, about rushing burn in the IQ bow of neyla was decent but failed to impress elsewhere. IoK is much better then thoughtseize in the burn matchup (leave in the raven's crime though) and against burn after you get your one green source I fine that it's best to tutor for basics or let the land enter play tapped). Today I added a batterskull to the sideboard which survives most burnspells, and gains life which goes a long way in racing in addition to widdling down their life. I faced pyromancer in a "for fun" game at the IQ, to win pre board is conplacated hold the decay for pyro, raven's crime is your best friend, get them into top deck mode as quick as possible, attack each turn with hard creatures only, IoK works well as a turn 1 play to possibly rip pyromancer, if you keep an opponent hellbent then it limits the pyromancer's triggers. I brought in the extra bridge and keeping youself hellbent limits token damage. Sit back on quicksand and put Mutavault's on the defense and loam as needed, getting a worm harvest will easily allow to take the lead later on but they'll likely already be ahead by the time you cast it (2cmc vs 5cmc)
"The dad" the biggest benifit to playing this deck is the utility you get out of your recurring lands, manlands can block each turn or swing without the loss of much tempo, the ability to recur artfacts with buried ruin allows you to dredge each turn to look for answers, every turn you drege u dig three cards to find any answers you may need, an ensnaring bridge to limit attackers, rack for a win con, raven's crime to keep an opponent in top deck mode which your ability to dredge should favor you, worm harvest as a win con or even simply to provide chump blockers can fend off most games, my new batterskull can be brought back. I'm doing a gatherer search to find other useable artifacts to use in a like minded way. This deck has more utility then the 8rack and b/w lists which is why I think it will prove better
So after doing a 2+ hour search of modern legal artifacts via gatherer, I found 3 that would be useful either mainboard or sideboard, they are:
Executioner's capsule: costs "B" to cast and has "1B T: destroy target nonblack creature" this card gives the deck recurring "nonblack creature" removal, works very well if you have buried ruin and an active loam.
Druidic satchel: costs "3" and has "2 T: Reveal the top card of your library. If it's a creature card, put a 1/1 green Saproling creature token onto the battlefield. If it's a land card, put that card onto the battlefield under your control. If it's a noncreature, nonland card, you gain 2 life." This accomplishes 2 main things, A: could give you extra life to race said burn decks and the like and more importantly B: the land coming into play will put you farther ahead in mana development for casting more techy things like batterskull and a faster worm harvest, and ensuring you have the mana to cast loam, play buried ruin and activate it, and play/use capsule, I would like to play test this card before actually using it tho cause the theory is sound but has the potential to be clunky
Norn's annex: costs "3 and 2 phyrexian white: each creature attacking you hast to pay either "W" or 2 life to do so which makes decks like splinter twin and pyromancer tokens pay more life then damage they can do.
I'm working on a function list now and should have one ready in 1 to 3 days, I will be sure to post it afterwards
Lucienx5, I played Pox mirror in Legacy this past weekend, and your hypothesis about The Rack being effective on Planeswalkers is spot on - my opponent drew and cast 3 LotV and the rack chewed right through all of them. I think Ensnaring Bridge might be important enough to this deck to run as 3 or 4 of. I've been toying with the idea of something like this for a long time, but had never thought of running the bridge, its really just a perfect card next to the Rack and Liliana. Additionally, I was thinking about the best way to port the legacy version of this deck into modern, and I think the only really notable card this deck has trouble replacing is Sinkhole. A card that I had considered before but couldnt quite get to work as a potential sinkhole replacement is Beast Within which is really a very versatile piece of removal, and can even hit basic lands if we can determine that LD might be the best way to lock an opponent out of the game. Creating a token was the biggest problem for me previously, and I would try to do cute plays like end of turn Beast Within, followed by a T4 smallpox... however I think with bridge in the main the 3/3 token is of much less concern.
Really love the idea of this deck, and now I have more incentive than ever to get a set of Liliana.
I know the legacy version of this deck can relatively easily lock out an opponent with Wasteland, did you find that the Modern decks you faced were greedy enough with their manabase to essentially achieve the same effect with Ghost Quarter? Would it even be worth it to run Tectonic Edge in this?
Lucienx5, I played Pox mirror in Legacy this past weekend, and your hypothesis about The Rack being effective on Planeswalkers is spot on - my opponent drew and cast 3 LotV and the rack chewed right through all of them. I think Ensnaring Bridge might be important enough to this deck to run as 3 or 4 of. I've been toying with the idea of something like this for a long time, but had never thought of running the bridge, its really just a perfect card next to the Rack and Liliana. Additionally, I was thinking about the best way to port the legacy version of this deck into modern, and I think the only really notable card this deck has trouble replacing is Sinkhole. A card that I had considered before but couldnt quite get to work as a potential sinkhole replacement is Beast Within which is really a very versatile piece of removal, and can even hit basic lands if we can determine that LD might be the best way to lock an opponent out of the game. Creating a token was the biggest problem for me previously, and I would try to do cute plays like end of turn Beast Within, followed by a T4 smallpox... however I think with bridge in the main the 3/3 token is of much less concern.
Really love the idea of this deck, and now I have more incentive than ever to get a set of Liliana.
I know the legacy version of this deck can relatively easily lock out an opponent with Wasteland, did you find that the Modern decks you faced were greedy enough with their manabase to essentially achieve the same effect with Ghost Quarter? Would it even be worth it to run Tectonic Edge in this?
I think you are right that it's worth considering 3-4 copies of bridge. It's just insane good against a ton of decks and moreso since this runs buried ruin. I can't agree with trying to port this from legacy... Legacy loam pox is my pet deck and modern just doesn't have the tools. We lose sinkhole, wasteland, innocent blood, hymn to tourach, and cursed scroll, and none have an even sort-of-adequate replacement. That's 18 cards in my list and 2/3 of the land destruction.
The bottom line is modern has to play a different game, which is what this deck does... the rack, bloodghast, and waste not make it much more agro, the 4x loam + buried ruin, raven's crime, bloodghast, ect means a larger focus on grave recursion, and bridge is a lock piece that's rarely worth it in legacy.
First off, realy like the deck. I'm sleeving it up soon (a mix between Lucien's deck and BatHickey's deck), so I'll try to post with some thoughts after further testing.
But as an 8rack player I'm not sure if more copies of bridge fit here. I can attest to the power of bridge with the rack and lili in play, but it becomes much less powerful with the Waste Not plan. A running Waste Not will generate too many draws early game for bridge to actually matter. It usually ends up feeling dead which is why most 8rack players dropped Waste Not. I do think bridge is still relevant late game when a top-decked Goyf, for example, could be problematic, so I'll be testing 1-2. Thoughts?
Why would you need bridges beyond MAYBE one or two when you are going to loam it into the yard and if you need it bring it back with buried ruin? Loaming is like drawing 3 every turn, so the traditional 4x if you wanna see it rule doesn't quite work the same.
Also waste not has worked better than bridge in general for me--generating zombies who just chump. The only thing you have trouble with is fliers, but thats what removal is for--the only one thats hard to remove that sees play in decks is thune and resto--but you can usually get those out of the hand before they come down.
I guess when I say 'port' I sort of mean in keeping with the spirit of legacy loam pox, because yes you're spot on that those are all cards that allow for the disruption strategy to be much more aggressive, the quality of which simply can't be duplicated in modern. I do think that against many of this format's popular decks ghost quarter can effectively be a wasteland - as a Melira Pod player I can say that I've been wrecked pretty hard by Ghost Quarter in the past, and I even make it a point to run basics in my decks. But there are plenty of decks out there that are SOOO greedy with their mana, even just with the silly brews people make it happens- my friend sent me a RUG delver brew he's looking at which includes a single Island, and all i could think was how quickly Ghost quarter would chew that mana base apart.
RE: Waste Not, i'm torn on it - as has been mentioned it could fight against our bridge, though I feel like we have generally effective ways to dump cards out of our own hand if necessary.... and I'm also not sure if we should run bloodghast/gravecrawler or waste not or both - i feel like each has its merits, and while I really like the idea of being able to blank our opponents' removal I'm not sure any of these are really the sort of cards that will draw removal to begin with. i think there's a right answer when it comes to creature threats, and maybe it just needs to be explored a little more
I guess when I say 'port' I sort of mean in keeping with the spirit of legacy loam pox, because yes you're spot on that those are all cards that allow for the disruption strategy to be much more aggressive, the quality of which simply can't be duplicated in modern. I do think that against many of this format's popular decks ghost quarter can effectively be a wasteland - as a Melira Pod player I can say that I've been wrecked pretty hard by Ghost Quarter in the past, and I even make it a point to run basics in my decks. But there are plenty of decks out there that are SOOO greedy with their mana, even just with the silly brews people make it happens- my friend sent me a RUG delver brew he's looking at which includes a single Island, and all i could think was how quickly Ghost quarter would chew that mana base apart.
RE: Waste Not, i'm torn on it - as has been mentioned it could fight against our bridge, though I feel like we have generally effective ways to dump cards out of our own hand if necessary.... and I'm also not sure if we should run bloodghast/gravecrawler or waste not or both - i feel like each has its merits, and while I really like the idea of being able to blank our opponents' removal I'm not sure any of these are really the sort of cards that will draw removal to begin with. i think there's a right answer when it comes to creature threats, and maybe it just needs to be explored a little more
I think the real power of waste not in this deck is it puts slower decks in a really bad position when you have a rack out... If they try to keep enough cards to prevent rack damage, then you can just cast raven's crime over and over, most likely netting you more cards and putting them back in rack range anyway. Against aggro, I'm less convinced of the power of waste not because it won't help you much while you're trying to survive the initial onslaught of dudes, but if you land a bridge it's the same as above. They can play their topdecked dudes and take rack damage, or they can hold on to them and let you get an army of zombies. And between life from the loam and raven's crime, it's pretty easy for us to go from an empty hand to 3 cards, attack with our zombie horde, and then dump our hand using crime so bridge is a 1-way effect.
But as an 8rack player I'm not sure if more copies of bridge fit here. I can attest to the power of bridge with the rack and lili in play, but it becomes much less powerful with the Waste Not plan. A running Waste Not will generate too many draws early game for bridge to actually matter. It usually ends up feeling dead which is why most 8rack players dropped Waste Not. I do think bridge is still relevant late game when a top-decked Goyf, for example, could be problematic, so I'll be testing 1-2. Thoughts?
I don't think waste not will have much effect at all on ensnaring bridge... if anything, it's life from the loam that you'd have to be careful with. Waste not will net you a bunch of cards vs. spell-heavy decks where bridge is less good, but net you a bunch of dudes against aggro where bridge is awesome. As described above, we have an unusual amount of control over our hand size which makes bridge particularly effective. The original player did say bridge was an all-star and he boarded in the 2nd literally every match. You might be right though about not needing more than 2 copies main though since it's dead sometimes and we can dredge & recur it. I think 2 main and 1 in the board makes sense as a starting point with adjustments depending on your meta.
3 Bloodghast
3 Gravecrawler
Planeswalkers (4)
4 Liliana of the Veil
Spells (24)
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 The Rack
3 Waste Not
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Darkblast
4 Life from the Loam
3 Raven's Crime
4 Smallpox
1 Worm Harvest
1 Forest
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Buried Ruin
2 Ghost Quarter
3 Leechridden Swamp
4 Mutavault
3 Overgrown Tomb
2 Quicksand
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Extractor Demon
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Pithing Needle
2 Torpor Orb
2 Bow of Nylea
3 Killing Wave
3 Maelstrom Pulse
Modern
UWGB 4c Snow Control BGWU
A couple obvious thoughts:
- 4x verdant catacombs over the mire/catacombs split. Surgical extraction is not seen enough to bother with the split since it's worse mana fixing.
- The list needs at minimum 1 basic swamp. Honestly, I think I'd want 2.
- I'm completely baffled that he didn't get color screwed all day. 14 sources of black is pretty light for a deck with smallpox and lili, and urborg doesn't help as much as one might think. More importantly, he only has EIGHT green sources. WTF? In legacy I'm running 19 black and 12 green and still have trouble with mana sometimes (usually BB is the problem). I guess he can ghost quarter himself for a forest, but that seems terrible and still only leaves 10 green sources.
- Bloodghast seems always better than gravecrawler... you're going to be playing a land every turn, it's free from the yard and will have haste to close out games.
I don't know... the whole deck just looks awkward. No targeted discard, minimal targeted removal, no early mana disruption. I feel like he got lucky, but then the guy who built this is a better magic player than me, so maybe I'm just not seeing the lines of play.
I do think the lands in the winning list in the OP need a little work, village would be an upgrade, so would a basic swamp over the leechriddens, but I get the inclusion of one or two. I have no idea why he ran mires before a full set of verdants, but who knows.
I may try a bit of that gravecrawler, ghast action, seems good!
4 mutavault
3 woodland cemetery
4 swamp
4 verdant catacombs
3 ghost quarter
3 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
2 overgrown tomb
1 buried ruin
1 forest
Spells 35
4 liliana of the veil
3 waste not
4 smallpox
4 abrupt decay
4 thoughtseize
4 life from the loam
3 raven’s crime
3 surgical extraction
4 the rack
1 darkblast
1 worm’s harvest
3 drown in sorrow
2 krosan grip
1 batterskull
4 leyline of sanctity
3 leyline of the void
1 tombstalker
This is closer to what I've been thinking about. A couple bloodghast might be worth it to speed it up, and I love the idea of quicksand/life from the loam. Surgical extraction main is interesting, but I'm not sure if I think it'd be consistent enough with only 4x targeted removal. The drown in sorrow in the board seems a must. Keep on brewing!
I am thinking about taking out a rack and....something to fit in a slaughter pact or two. Pod has occasionally snuck out a restoration angel on me and that can be sorta killer.
Drown in sorrow BTW is a total house and I love it. A singleton golgari charm might also be helpful, but I do like drown because it hits affinity even after a steelshaper activation, everything early out of pod, infect, and delver + a scry.
I'll add more later, C Ya
Additionally, how well would something like Death Cloud slot in to the deck? I feel like it would just seal the coffin so to speak late game, though it might be unnecessary.
So main board,
Creatures: 3 Bloodghast, 3 Gravercrawlers
This was the first modern tourney I ever played in local or otherwise so unfamiliar with what other popular decks ran (I also just got back into magic this month after selling all my cards last year) I thought A: I didn't want extraction effects to remove all my creatures and B: overall 6 recurring creatures would be better then 4 so I decided to split the differnce. (I came in 16th at a legacy SCG open with mono black smallpox using gravecrawler's as a clock in my 1st ever non Local Game Store tourney so I thought it might work here as well too) both cards are prime discard choices as bringing them back is easy as pie (from the store, homemade pies may require some effort) (gravecrawler's and Bloodghast's alike failed to do any significant damage and the Bloodghast's recur a lot easier so I think I'll run 0/4 in favor of the vampire in the near future)
Planeswalkers: 4 liliana of the veil
If you don't know why she's on the list then your in the wrong thread.
I usually ramp her up to keep opponents in top deck mode which benefits me being able to retreve relevant lands and cast my kill cards from the yard when dredging. I plan on running 4 until one of two things happen: A she gets banned :-( or B: I'm allowed to play with more then 4
Artifacts: 3 the rack, 1 ensnaring bridge
The rack has actully won me nearly every game I played except 1 where my Leechridden Swamp knocked it out of the park. 3 is a good number for me as I tend to dredge every chance I get and my buried ruins can retreve them for me (I run 3 ruins btw) if u run a lower buried ruins count maybe going up to 4 the racks would be more useful. Although I didn't play against any, it's worth noting that the rack can deal damage to planeswalkers so it would've been my primary method of getting through them as well. Ensnaring bridge hasn't so much won me games as it has prevented decks with no efficient way of removing it from winning. I actually sideboarded the 2nd in 4 of the five rounds I won (to be fair to bride I would've brought it in in the 5th but my opponent got a game 1 loss for forgetting to fill out his sideboard and I won the first game we played without my sideboard) as often as it's saved me and I brought in the 2nd I feel like maybe I should just make room for 2 mainboard, we'll see if I can get the numbers to work. Bridge works wonders with Lilly and casting loam to get 2 lands in hand, attack with zombies/vampires, then discard to Lilly/retrace raven's crime can let you get in attacks through bridge, it's your card, play around it.
Enchantments: 3 waste not
I've been dreaming about this card since I voted for it in "you make the card" and it proved very effective. The earlier you put it down generally the more use you'll get out of it and the happier you'll be. The mana use it gives turns off when you have a Lilly in play and no cards to cast. Generally I used to 2/2 bodies to block only swinging the in on an open field. Also keep in mind that you can cast gravecrawler'sHere I am, I will go through my decklist and sideboard and give my reasoning behind my choices and tell about my matchups and what worked and what didn't. As well as some changes I plan to make for it's next outing.
So main board,
Creatures: 3 Bloodghast, 3 Gravercrawlers
This was the first modern tourney I ever played in local or otherwise so unfamiliar with what other popular decks ran (I also just got back into magic this month after selling all my cards last year) I thought A: I didn't want extraction effects to remove all my creatures and B: overall 6 recurring creatures would be better then 4 so I decided to split the differnce. (I came in 16th at a legacy SCG open with mono black smallpox using gravecrawler's as a clock in my 1st ever non Local Game Store tourney so I thought it might work here as well too) gravecrawler's and Bloodghast's alike failed to do any significant damage and the Bloodghast's recur a lot easier so I think I'll run 0/4 in favor of the vampire in the near future)
Planeswalkers: 4 liliana of the veil
If you don't know why she's on the list then your in the wrong thread.
I usually ramp her up to keep opponents in top deck mode which benefits me being able to retreve relevant lands and cast my kill cards from the yard when dredging. I plan on running 4 until one of two things happen: A she gets banned :-( or B: I'm allowed to play with more then 4
Artifacts: 3 the rack, 1 ensnaring bridge
The rack has actully won me nearly every game I played except 1 where my Leechridden Swamp knocked it out of the park. 3 is a good number for me as I tend to dredge every chance I get and my buried ruins can retreve them for me (I run 3 ruins btw) if u run a lower buried ruins count maybe going up to 4 the racks would be more useful. Although I didn't play against any, it's worth noting that the rack can deal damage to planeswalkers so it would've been my primary method of getting through them as well. Ensnaring bridge hasn't so much won me games as it has prevented decks with no efficient way of removing it from winning. I actually sideboarded the 2nd in 4 of the five rounds I won (to be fair to bride I would've brought it in in the 5th but my opponent got a game 1 loss for forgetting to fill out his sideboard and I won the first game we played without my sideboard) as often as it's saved me and I brought in the 2nd I feel like maybe I should just make room for 2 mainboard, we'll see if I can get the numbers to work. Bridge works wonders with Lilly and casting loam to get 2 lands in hand, attack with zombies/vampires, then discard to Lilly/retrace raven's crime can let you get back to hellbent, bridge is your card, play around it.
Enchantments: 3 waste not
I have been daydreaming about this card ever since I voted for it in "you make the card"
Waste not is generally more useful the sooner it hits the table. Later in the game when Lilly and raven's crime are doing their jobs it's mana gift becomes near useless as you are likely in top deck mode. The 2/2 bodies I generally reserve for blocking swinging in only when the road is clear, it's good to note that gravecrawlers can be cast from your graveyard off of the tokens without the presence of mutavaults. I'm a little bitter sweet about the cantrip as the only time any opponent discarded a noncreature, nonland card was when I had bridge in play and they were hoping to get through with a body, I also got my hellbent back (once even needing to ravens crime myself) but it never seemed like a useless or dead card. Also worth noting waste not triggers on cards like faithless looting and lighthouse land (I faced the land but can't recall the name of the land the has 1UR T: draw a card and discard a card.
I think 3 is the number I will stick to unless I move to targeted mono black smallpox with a couple of 2 for 1 cards as well.
Sorcerys: 3 raven's crime, 1 worm harvest, 4 life from the loam, 4 smallpox
The raven's crime pulled it's weight around more after my first loam when I could recur it 1 to 3 times a turn, although it's not targeted the notion that you can do it as often as you need is very helpful, many opponents will try their best to stop Lilly (with counter magic) but no one will waste a discard spell on raven's crime cause the can just bin the counter and save the mana. I had one instance early game where I ravens crimed myself to bin a Bloodghast and only 1 black source opening hand and he eventually got through for 6, I won that game with only 2 life left so that could've gone another way without that. Worm harvest should've been great other then I had such presence most of my games that I won either before it got dredged of before I hit 5 land. It's not really a dead card in your opening hand as you can easily pitch it for later use. 2 could definitely work to make room for a targeted discard spell but I really liked having 3, the trade off is guaranteeing to take a threat vs keeping them in too deck mode which is what I hoped to accomplish and I did so well. Again rack just wins games. There's is no reason to not run at least 1 and I feel like more would be dead cards solely for pitching and it would be better to have other cards to actually use. I use a full set of life from the loams to get one as early as possible. With support from loam you can recur Mutavault's for blocking, quicksands for stalling (most people refused to attack into the sand with anything it could kill and I prolonged a game by reducing a 3/3 into a 2/1 over 3 turns I won that game with 1 life left after dredging into a bridge to win off of rack) and recurring raven's crime to hellbent an opponent. If u have liliana Onassis roll you can discard a loamed land if you have a card you want to use later (abrupt decay in my instance). There is no good reason I can see to not run 4. Smallpox is the card with the most bang for it's buck, slows mana development removes creatures without targeting, and grinds out a hand, this deck can reuse most of the cards it pitches, it's lands, and all of its creatures so it's effect on you is minimal. Best played on turn 2 when an opponent has a dork in play, it's a very easy card to plan to play around if your it's caster. No reason not to run 4.
Instants: 4 abrupt decay, 1 Darkblast
Abrupt decay handles most early threats and cannot be countered, if it could also hit pod it would be a perfect card.
If I were to run targeted discard I would choose thoughtseize over IoK as decay knocks off everything IoK his save Geist with his hexproof (it's worth noting the decay does hit his angelic friend though). No real reason not to run 4.
Dark blast can pick off annoying little x/1's and occasionally an x/2 during your turn. It is almost never a good idea to dredge it back until you have at least 1 green source in play. I run 1, I can se people running more but wouldn't go higher then 2.
Land:
3 overgrown tomb:
1 Forest:
I was at first going to run 4 tomb until it occurred to me that if 1 tomb gets extracted I would have no green sources so this was the way for me to go, plus I felt I should have a least 1 basic land to fetch off of opposing ghost quarters or even path to exiles. The deck worked really well for me in part because it was a custom list and one too many time I watched an opponent sit on 2 ghost quarters while I had 1 green source in play not knowing they could cut me off from loam... And I am well aware, I will only get away with that once, my next list will have at least 2 basic lands for that very reason (1/1 probably).
3 buried ruin: I could have probably have gotten away with 2 but 1 is just too few, being able to dredge and retrieve utility artifacts such as the rack (for the win), ensnaring bridge (to survive), or Pithing needles to shut down opponent key cards (in theory, I never needed needle before pod in top 8 and didn't see it against Kikipod opponent actually stacked the deck and was caught cheating after the fact (a whole day later so nothing could be done), I never thought of using batterskull but I bet that no one here would attempt to use it if it weren't for at least 1 copy of buried ruin. I may go down to 2 in favor of a woodland cemetery for mana fixing, I did not regret having 3 though, it pulled it's weight all day.
2 bloodstained mire:
2 verdant catacombs:
I split the dual lands for 2 particular reasons A: cost mires were $8-$13 cheaper then catacombs and I started the day with 4 mires and sold the few cards I had from another deck to get enough cash to pick up the 2 catacombs, and B: havering never played modern before I wrongly assumed that extraction effects would be prevalent and they "WOULD" screw over my deck.
1 Bojuka bog: grave yard hate, keep in mind you can ghost quarter it yourself to recur it with loam, I didn't have to but just in case.
3 Leechridden swamp: 1 loss of life that can be fetched for, I do plan on going down to 2 and tuning a basic swamp but generally pulls it's weight, coming into play tapped though was only a problem for 2 or 3 games, I didn't have to mulligan a hand with them as I only have raven's crime, gracecrawlers, and racks that cost 1 so I can typically play around even 2 in my opening hand (3 in a starting hand is unacceptable though as I really need Lilly in play as often as possible.
2 quicksand: keeps walkers at bay, thiala will not swing into it, neither will anything else in death and taxes, nothing but the golem token and taking 1 less damage from the golem each turn bought me enough time to get a bridge and rack damage prevails (I cannot stress how great those 2 cards are together)
3 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth: let's every land in play taps for black (your opponents too) but is a great mana fixer in terms of getting colored mana from your utility lands. Only being able to have one in play at a time makes me run 3 but if you can make 4 work power to ya (keep in mind you and play one with one in play tapping the first and sacrificing the tapped one and then the untapped one for a total of BB to your pool (I do not recommend keeping a hand with only 2 urborg but I have with a third land and it worked out fine.)
2 ghost quarter: 4 functions, A: disrupts opponents manabase (splitting a dual land or even wastelanding greedy decks) B: can quarter your own land to fetch the sole forest in a pinch (now a swamp as well), C: colonnade's worst enemy, and D: quartering your own Bojuka bog to recur it.
4 mutavault: manlands hide from day of judgements and stick around after smallpox (usually) and serve to be a recurring chump blocker, and to recur gravecrawlers they have what it takes to hammer in that last couple of points but he spent a lot of time on defense at this tourney for me.
Sideboard choices: (keep in mind that before this tourney I have never played modern before so I just planned for as much as I could, there are likely cards that exist that are either more relevant then these, do the job better, of that I simply don't know about)
1 ensnaring bridge: every single chance I got to sideboard it came in, I really want to make room for him mainboard even at the expense of running a 61 card deck (...yea it's that good, he really is racks best friend)
3 maelstrom pulse: hits any not shroud/hexproof/land permanent and hits copy's as well, I brought him in a few times but only got to use him once, one game hit 2 signal pests and the next hit 3 (...yes I was very proud)
2 Pithing needle: I'm sure it hits relevant things but I use it to stop twin/pod decks but any card with an activated ability and be stopped. An recur with buried ruin which as close as I can get to a tutor.
2 torpor orb: same as above, twin/pod hate, with pod stops both finx life gain and Kiki tokens (exarch and such) stop an pod from using restoration angel to reuse pod.
3 killing wave: I really wanted damnation but at $2 a card was much more affordable then $40 a card. Maybe if an opponent chose to pay for the creatures it would be relevant but who knows, when I did side it in I never saw it.
2 bow of neyla: again it's a choice for not knowing the meta, making a bigger creature fear of death via blocking a 1/1 is potant, shocking a flyer is relevant vs delver, 3 life can help you race tempo and burn, +1+1 counters matter more on mutavault, and if someone attempts to extract a key card I can hide it for later use. I never brought him in fearing being able to produce GG if it really mattered so I have plans to replace.
2 extractor demons: seems good vs decks that play at a slower pace (especially ones that hide behind counter magic) cannot be countered (save for trickbind) and can be dredged and swing for lava axe damage) never had to use him and other cards could've been more useful)
I plan to take out the 2 demons and bows for some tech for pod/twin
In 4 Batwing Brumes for your own notes be aware that that trick will only work once, after losing to a million point brume swing most opponents will swing in smaller batches.
I started this post at 10:42pm and finished at 2:27am so I will post my actual matches tomorrow night but indicated bits and pieces here. I had to type this whole thing on my phone please hold the spelling/grammar comments, thanks
What were your hardest matchups?
As you have stated you're new to modern, but i still have some questions of the bat:
What do you think are the advantages you have over the other 2 rack centric decks in modern?
8rack: www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/established-modern/574097-8rack]
W/B smallpox: www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/modern-deck-creation/221762-b-w-smallpox-control
(new to this forum so I can only post links like this^^)
How do you fair against Treasure cruise, the bane of discard decks at the moment? I tested your list with some changes (similar to Jukai's list with 4 Thoughtsieze and 2 Bridge in the main) against U/R delver.
If they resolve a Cruise it feels as if all my work has been undone. Especially since the deck can function with 2-3 lands. And with a young pyromancer out smallpox gets a lot worse.
I also had problems against burn. Even on the play, smallpox turn 2 killing their Goblin Guide and getting Lilly down turn 4 i had a hard time. With burn splashing blue for cruise they seldom run out of steam and my clock wasn't fast enough, even if i could slow them down with hand and land disrupt.
But those were really the only matchups that I struggled with and with a bit of tuning this deck looks really promising.
I will be testing a list that runs the full 4 Briges and less creatures.
Of course I'm new to this deck and not totally comfortable playing it coming from a 8rack deck, that has way more targeted discard and no dregde as main card advantage.
I would also avoid talking about what 'works' in 8rack, its a suboptimally build deck that folds to clocks on board and decks with answers to bridge. You shouldn't be playing 20 discard spells, its simply poorly designed and stubbornly defended. You're both nice posters, and I understand the contributions by likening it to 8rack. In this particular case, pack rat does the same thing as gravecrawler/bloodghast, but costs more cards and resources and doesn't interface as well with the dredge plan.
Against burn, which is a problem, I've been running leylines and baloths--pretty much works out for me. Lilianas pitching dead leylines has been good enough considering I can't cast them.
I tried out baloth and leylines. I had some issues getting double green reliable, but laylines are really nice since you tend to dredge most of the time so drawing them later in the game isn't that relevant.
I played around with lifegain lands play->sac-> loam-> repeat. It works well in bloom titan but there you can tutor for the lands so it's probably to cute:)
Executioner's capsule: costs "B" to cast and has "1B T: destroy target nonblack creature" this card gives the deck recurring "nonblack creature" removal, works very well if you have buried ruin and an active loam.
Druidic satchel: costs "3" and has "2 T: Reveal the top card of your library. If it's a creature card, put a 1/1 green Saproling creature token onto the battlefield. If it's a land card, put that card onto the battlefield under your control. If it's a noncreature, nonland card, you gain 2 life." This accomplishes 2 main things, A: could give you extra life to race said burn decks and the like and more importantly B: the land coming into play will put you farther ahead in mana development for casting more techy things like batterskull and a faster worm harvest, and ensuring you have the mana to cast loam, play buried ruin and activate it, and play/use capsule, I would like to play test this card before actually using it tho cause the theory is sound but has the potential to be clunky
Norn's annex: costs "3 and 2 phyrexian white: each creature attacking you hast to pay either "W" or 2 life to do so which makes decks like splinter twin and pyromancer tokens pay more life then damage they can do.
I'm working on a function list now and should have one ready in 1 to 3 days, I will be sure to post it afterwards
Thanks for tuning in, bye
Really love the idea of this deck, and now I have more incentive than ever to get a set of Liliana.
I know the legacy version of this deck can relatively easily lock out an opponent with Wasteland, did you find that the Modern decks you faced were greedy enough with their manabase to essentially achieve the same effect with Ghost Quarter? Would it even be worth it to run Tectonic Edge in this?
I think you are right that it's worth considering 3-4 copies of bridge. It's just insane good against a ton of decks and moreso since this runs buried ruin. I can't agree with trying to port this from legacy... Legacy loam pox is my pet deck and modern just doesn't have the tools. We lose sinkhole, wasteland, innocent blood, hymn to tourach, and cursed scroll, and none have an even sort-of-adequate replacement. That's 18 cards in my list and 2/3 of the land destruction.
The bottom line is modern has to play a different game, which is what this deck does... the rack, bloodghast, and waste not make it much more agro, the 4x loam + buried ruin, raven's crime, bloodghast, ect means a larger focus on grave recursion, and bridge is a lock piece that's rarely worth it in legacy.
But as an 8rack player I'm not sure if more copies of bridge fit here. I can attest to the power of bridge with the rack and lili in play, but it becomes much less powerful with the Waste Not plan. A running Waste Not will generate too many draws early game for bridge to actually matter. It usually ends up feeling dead which is why most 8rack players dropped Waste Not. I do think bridge is still relevant late game when a top-decked Goyf, for example, could be problematic, so I'll be testing 1-2. Thoughts?
Also waste not has worked better than bridge in general for me--generating zombies who just chump. The only thing you have trouble with is fliers, but thats what removal is for--the only one thats hard to remove that sees play in decks is thune and resto--but you can usually get those out of the hand before they come down.
RE: Waste Not, i'm torn on it - as has been mentioned it could fight against our bridge, though I feel like we have generally effective ways to dump cards out of our own hand if necessary.... and I'm also not sure if we should run bloodghast/gravecrawler or waste not or both - i feel like each has its merits, and while I really like the idea of being able to blank our opponents' removal I'm not sure any of these are really the sort of cards that will draw removal to begin with. i think there's a right answer when it comes to creature threats, and maybe it just needs to be explored a little more
I think the real power of waste not in this deck is it puts slower decks in a really bad position when you have a rack out... If they try to keep enough cards to prevent rack damage, then you can just cast raven's crime over and over, most likely netting you more cards and putting them back in rack range anyway. Against aggro, I'm less convinced of the power of waste not because it won't help you much while you're trying to survive the initial onslaught of dudes, but if you land a bridge it's the same as above. They can play their topdecked dudes and take rack damage, or they can hold on to them and let you get an army of zombies. And between life from the loam and raven's crime, it's pretty easy for us to go from an empty hand to 3 cards, attack with our zombie horde, and then dump our hand using crime so bridge is a 1-way effect.
I don't think waste not will have much effect at all on ensnaring bridge... if anything, it's life from the loam that you'd have to be careful with. Waste not will net you a bunch of cards vs. spell-heavy decks where bridge is less good, but net you a bunch of dudes against aggro where bridge is awesome. As described above, we have an unusual amount of control over our hand size which makes bridge particularly effective. The original player did say bridge was an all-star and he boarded in the 2nd literally every match. You might be right though about not needing more than 2 copies main though since it's dead sometimes and we can dredge & recur it. I think 2 main and 1 in the board makes sense as a starting point with adjustments depending on your meta.