There are only 14 sideboard card in both decks. Which is the last one?
Then, isn't Shapers' Sanctuary a pretty bad top deck and good only if cast during the first few turns?
Nah, it's always good in those MUs. Shapers' is amazing against any spot removal deck. This is one of the rare decks in Modern that can wield it properly (the other being Infect). Other strategies that stand to benefit from Shapers' over-commit into sweepers by their very gameplan, which makes it a sloppy fit.
Last SB card was Negate, which has always been in the deck. Added it to the list.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Is this deck still worth it post unbans? I see a lot of activity on the Temur Delver forum recently and have found the lists over there quite interesting to play with, but am still fond of Counter Cat. Do you guys think it still has a chance in the current meta?
It's weaker to midrange than ever with BBE legal. Try Queller-Cat, which trims permission for Mutagenic Growth and Spell Queller and increases the threat count without Delver.
Super interested in this list. Been away from Modern for a long time because of year-round University (and perhaps sort of will be still, but am missing it real bad so want to come back at least for a bit). For the most part I'm on board, just have a few questions:
1. Having a hard time figuring out when to bring in Reflector Mage. In the article you say it replaces Path to Exile, though am wondering when it would be subpar to bring in vs PtE. For instance, Path to Exile seems great against Humans, while Reflector Mage perhaps feels subpar against a deck that is most potent with Aether Vials. Is it still worth it to bring them in against such a deck? Or is it better to hope to rely on Kozilek's Return to clear out the early squad and hope to race their Mantis Riders with our own creatures? Seems really good against other decks where Path to Exile shine, like Hollow One.
2. Has 4xMutagenic Growth been good for you? Does it ever feel like too many? I've never actually played with the card, but it seems really good. I thought the Mental Mistep comparison seemed real accurate sometimes. Do you still feel that 4x is good, or do you think 3x would work just as well without over-saturating your hand with the pump spell.
3. I'm considering running Tribal Flames as a 2-of. I know you've cut it and seem to be happier without it, but I just love that card so much. Perhaps a Pet Card situation. So, I guess hypothetically if you WERE to run Tribal Flames, which black dual do you think would work best? Usually I just use Blood Crypt sort of as though I were playing a basic Mountain, but am wondering if that's correct here or if red isn't a dominant enough color.
4. Is Knight of Autumn good here? Either main-board or in the 75 in total? Might try them sideboard.
Mage is definitely worse with more Humans around but it's still good in the mu for bouncing big Champions or killing Images. Muta is kind of the point of this deck, so if your metagame is light on Bolts, I'd say play something else. Knight of Autumn seems awesome in this deck and probably frees up some sideboard space. Do what you gotta do re: Tribal Flames.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Just want to share with you my current deck. I'm winning a lot with it (even though only on free clients online. Alas It's the only way I can play right now).
I manage to cast Experimental Frenzy only once against jund and completely changed the game. In a couple of turns in which I manage to virtually draw and play 3 cards, they just scooped even if I was at 5 and they at 16 both top deck. Actually it's pretty anecdotal but I'll keep it in side for sure right now.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Decks played: Modern:
0 Affinity;
URG Delver
URGW Countercats
(Here you can find some video contents about Countercats and Temur Delver decks)
EF seems a lot worse than Tamiyo in that slot. Also a 4-mana haymaker that helps you plus vs. attrition decks, but it's better in more MUs (notably vs any big creature deck like H1/Eldrazi/Shadow), more reliable at doing a certain thing (EF can be erratic), and generates value even if it immediately eats Trophy (rare that you'll have mana to utilize Frenzy the turn it comes down, and even then it's not a guaranteed hit on top of the deck). Also doesn't interfere with cantrips. And finally I already find the midrange matchups quite good and would want something there that helps against a wider scope of decks. Tamiyo was sick when we played her.
Kelsey has cut Looting from her build altogether (still plays 2 Sleight main). She started running a 2nd Chart side instead of her Looting (still has this card in my Mountain slot). Apparently Chart is better against attrition decks as you can slam it down faster, whereas Looting asks you to wait until the perfect time in those matchups. More aggressive attrition decks like Jund or control with a walker in play don't give you much time though. Basically the ceiling is a little lower than with Looting in the late-game, the floor is also lower in mana-light early games, and Chart is way more flexible throughout the game so long as you make two land drops.
Our gripe with Looting in this deck: CC uses all its cards over the course of most games, so there's rarely stuff we want to just throw away. Like we're happy to save a Muta or Snare until the right moment even if it's not doing anything right now. That's also why Chart is so good: getting 2 new cards is huge when both of them are valuable. Looting still makes the cut in my build mostly as a Snapcaster-esque card, AKA insurance against go-long decks. It can also be used to dig into answers or lands in dire situations, but I wouldn't want to run more than one because that doesn't come up so often. I'm also open to cutting it but I really like having a dedicated way in the 75 to chew through extra fetches in grindy matchups and don't want any of my sideboard cards in my mainboard, so I can't just swap Looting for one of those.
I have been thinking about testing Peek after seeing Nikachu's video on the card in Merfolk. Probably over the Sleight for starters. I vividly remember how insane the info from Probe was with our counter/removal/threat suite in this deck and was sad to see that card go.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I started from your list, but I find that 10 cantrips were too many for my taste. I swapped two of them with tarfire (one may become a helix). With fewer way to look for lands I added mountain: more basics are welcome in a meta full of astros (assassin's trophy) and ptes and my list is more red than yours. I needed more ways to put cards in the gy for mandrills. I choose looting because I like it more than thought scour and I needed sorceries. Actually I may agree that 3 are a bit too many. I may try a chart or a sleight in that slot.
With this configuration (few cantrips) I wanted to try EF. It may be overkill and I'm not completely sold already. I'll try it more and see.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Decks played: Modern:
0 Affinity;
URG Delver
URGW Countercats
(Here you can find some video contents about Countercats and Temur Delver decks)
I started from your list, but I find that 10 cantrips were too many for my taste. I swapped two of them with tarfire (one may become a helix). With fewer way to look for lands I added mountain: more basics are welcome in a meta full of astros (assassin's trophy) and ptes and my list is more red than yours. I needed more ways to put cards in the gy for mandrills. I choose looting because I like it more than thought scour and I needed sorceries. Actually I may agree that 3 are a bit too many. I may try a chart or a sleight in that slot.
With this configuration (few cantrips) I wanted to try EF. It may be overkill and I'm not completely sold already. I'll try it more and see.
We play 9 one-mana cantrips to your 7, which is certainly a difference. But there's a balance to be struck between sorcery- and instant-speed cantrips. We about 3 at instant speed. They are crucial against any deck where we want to hold up mana. Better than Serum against UW and other decks with 4- and 5-mana haymakers; Tron, KCI, and similar combo decks with big cards to resolve; even Burn where we want to shoot down their guys end step so we can make attacks with Goyf, or just Leak their play and try again the next turn cycle. We sideboard Serum out more than we remove Opt because having instant cantrips is so important in a lot of matchups.
With this kind of split it actually feels more like 6 cantrips than 9, because the instants give you a lot of flexibility as to when to cast them. You don't have to commit main phase mana doing that and decide between casting creatures or holding up permission. I don't see any kind of interplay between cantrip timing in your list and think paying attention to that difference might sell you on more cantrips over something like Mountain. One thing I don't like about Looting main is it messes with our colors: what makes our manabase so smooth is that Bolt and Path are the only non-UG cards in the deck. Mountain is a dead draw in so many games and only worth it as a 3rd or 4th land, or as a bring-in vs. decks that will Path/Field/Quarter you a lot (Trophy is miserable against this and other aggro decks). I think if you try Helix you will find it straight-up uncastable a good chunk of the time.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Hey Everyone, i decided to pick up the deck and try it out, i have some questions about few cards:
- When playing Tribal Flames version, is it too harsh on manabase to switch 2 out of 3 Hooting Mandrills for Tasigur, the Golden Fang? Is it even worth it to get +0/+1 and abillity to maybe get some CA?
- Might be Worldly Counsel better than Chart a Course in the same spot? Is the "filling graveyard" part of Chart a Course that important? or is the superior card sellection more valuable?
- Can you get away with 3-4 delve threats and 2+Snapcaster Mage?
- How is Counter-Cat's matchup vs midrange (Jund, Abzan,...)? Do you need to devote some sideboard slots to it?
- With prevelance of Path to Exile and Assassin's Trophy should we consider to run a basic in sideboard?
- With running 4 Tarmogoyf and 3 Hooting Mandrills is Stubborn Denial better than Spell Pierce most of the time?
- Is there any chance to go more control build with Ionize?
- Can you keep 3 lands 4 spells hand without threat in the dark? (e.g fetch, fetch, shock, Bolt, Visions, Path, Spell Pierce)
Thanks for any answers
Hey Everyone, i decided to pick up the deck and try it out, i have some questions about few cards:
- When playing Tribal Flames version, is it too harsh on manabase to switch 2 out of 3 Hooting Mandrills for Tasigur, the Golden Fang? Is it even worth it to get +0/+1 and abillity to maybe get some CA?
- Might be Worldly Counsel better than Chart a Course in the same spot? Is the "filling graveyard" part of Chart a Course that important? or is the superior card sellection more valuable?
- Can you get away with 3-4 delve threats and 2+Snapcaster Mage?
- How is Counter-Cat's matchup vs midrange (Jund, Abzan,...)? Do you need to devote some sideboard slots to it?
- With prevelance of Path to Exile and Assassin's Trophy should we consider to run a basic in sideboard?
- With running 4 Tarmogoyf and 3 Hooting Mandrills is Stubborn Denial better than Spell Pierce most of the time?
- Is there any chance to go more control build with Ionize?
- Can you keep 3 lands 4 spells hand without threat in the dark? (e.g fetch, fetch, shock, Bolt, Visions, Path, Spell Pierce)
Thanks for any answers
As far as I'm concerned there is no TF version. The card doesn't do anything for us. Chart plussing or filling the GY is very important. The card is quite flexible. Snap is just too pricey to be played at 2 IMO. It's less about GY demands. We quite like the midrange matchups and have many cards for it in the sideboard. I am running a Mountain side. Denial is worse because we play 8 one-drops. Ionize might as well cost 10 mana. I would ship that hand and most like it.
Some of these questions have been answered on this very page. Out of curiosity, have you done any reading on the deck?
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I did indeed. Very much so actually. Lot of the stuff is very outdated and different opinions tend to stand against one another, so when you read a lot of them in short time period you might get mixed thoughts. Sorry for bothering and thanks for your time, i just wanted to clarify the general consensus on these.
I did indeed. Very much so actually. Lot of the stuff is very outdated and different opinions tend to stand against one another, so when you read a lot of them in short time period you might get mixed thoughts. Sorry for bothering and thanks for your time, i just wanted to clarify the general consensus on these.
Not bothered at all, just curious. Otherwise I wouldn't have answered 😊 Hope it helps!
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I've been jamming some counter cat at a few events, and I've identified a problem with my build. We can all agree that the optimal 2 lands to have are UW/R and GR/W. In my deck, I use curious obsession to gain card advantage and pull ahead of my opponents. The card has been great for me when it works. It grows our Wild Nacatl out of bolt range and allows both our 1 drops to trigger stubborn denial. The problem with the card however (and other traditonal CA spells in this deck) is that it requires us to tap our (potentially) only blue source, leaving our creatures defenseless to spot removal. I have come up with two solutions to this problem.
1) play the card keen sense. This allows us to execute our card draw plan, while letting us leave up U for counter magic. The downside is that you lose out on the other benefits of obsession, but it allows you to keep shields up for what will probably be the most important turn of the game for your opponent.
2) play the card disrupting shoal. Disrupting shoal is another card that lets us keep our shields up even when we tap our blue mana. I wouldn't mind jamming it into counter cat again, but I feel like the card can be almost as clunky as lightning helix.
What are your thoughts on these solutions? I think having a draw spell in green could be an effective solution, even though the green aura is much worse than the blue one. Do you have any other ideas? I feel like this issue is very solvable.
I've been jamming some counter cat at a few events, and I've identified a problem with my build. We can all agree that the optimal 2 lands to have are UW/R and GR/W. In my deck, I use curious obsession to gain card advantage and pull ahead of my opponents. The card has been great for me when it works. It grows our Wild Nacatl out of bolt range and allows both our 1 drops to trigger stubborn denial. The problem with the card however (and other traditonal CA spells in this deck) is that it requires us to tap our (potentially) only blue source, leaving our creatures defenseless to spot removal. I have come up with two solutions to this problem.
1) play the card keen sense. This allows us to execute our card draw plan, while letting us leave up U for counter magic. The downside is that you lose out on the other benefits of obsession, but it allows you to keep shields up for what will probably be the most important turn of the game for your opponent.
2) play the card disrupting shoal. Disrupting shoal is another card that lets us keep our shields up even when we tap our blue mana. I wouldn't mind jamming it into counter cat again, but I feel like the card can be almost as clunky as lightning helix.
What are your thoughts on these solutions? I think having a draw spell in green could be an effective solution, even though the green aura is much worse than the blue one. Do you have any other ideas? I feel like this issue is very solvable.
Keen Sense seems gross; the +1 from Obsession is insane in a deck with one-mana 3/3s, 4/4 tramplers, and Tarmogoyf.
Seems to me like the card you want more of is Chart a Course. Don't worry about tapping down the U; if you draw into Mutas, you can protect from damage-based removal even with no mana, and Chart draws us into more threats anyway. But if you really want another value generator for your metagame, I'd recommend going up on Snapcaster.
Here's the list Kelsey and I are playing right now:
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Did you manage to try Peek instead of Opt? I'm currently playing it and I like it.
Then I'm having some problems with go-wide deck (Humans, Spirits, G devotion, etc.) since I find the 2 damage of Pyroclasm too few sometimes. I'm going to try Radiant Flames since you can uptick the damage to 3 if needed. I'm also trying a Blossoming Defense instead of the third Muta to have an edge against non-damage removals (and abilities such as the one from Reflector Mage).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Decks played: Modern:
0 Affinity;
URG Delver
URGW Countercats
(Here you can find some video contents about Countercats and Temur Delver decks)
I'm having some problems with go-wide deck (Humans, Spirits, G devotion, etc.) since I find the 2 damage of Pyroclasm too few sometimes. I'm going to try Radiant Flames since you can uptick the damage to 3 if needed.
I suggest trying the new card deafening clarion as it has some really strong text against burn.
Did you manage to try Peek instead of Opt? I'm currently playing it and I like it.
Then I'm having some problems with go-wide deck (Humans, Spirits, G devotion, etc.) since I find the 2 damage of Pyroclasm too few sometimes. I'm going to try Radiant Flames since you can uptick the damage to 3 if needed. I'm also trying a Blossoming Defense instead of the third Muta to have an edge against non-damage removals (and abilities such as the one from Reflector Mage).
Yep, we hated it. It's only good against a certain kind of deck, and in a certain game state; more specifically, against UW around turn 3-4 when they have many cards in hand. Unlike Merfolk, we can generate a respectable clock without playing into a sweeper, so the card is just unnecessary for us. Overall, it's a lot stronger to have the opener-fixing capabilities of Sleight of Hand or Opt, or the Mandrills-rushing power of Scour, than it is the marginal benefits gained by Peek info.
Clasm is insane, although I think Humans and Spirits are definitely tricky if you don't use your removal sparingly. We have a critical mass of it, but that just means the matchup is a cakewalk if we're careful, not that we should run around Bolting everything in sight. This article about removal pacing from Jadine resonates with my experience against these decks on Counter-Cat.
I think a lot of our "good" matchups only become good once the pilot has learned to play against the deck. CC has so many lines available each turn, and so many tools/plans available for games 2 and 3, that this experience is invaluable and generally preferable to aggressively tuning the sideboard in one direction or another. Prime examples: Humans, Burn, Jeskai. The challenge of finding an ideal plan and playstyle for each matchup is the main thing that keeps me coming back to this deck.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I'm still experimenting with the sideboard, wouldn't mind having a discussion about the cards I'm running there. Outside of the sideboard, I experimented with blossoming defense as a potential problem solver for my 'shields down' problem mentioned in my previous post. I wasn't disappointed.
Round 1: BR instant reanimator
If my opponent ever had the combo, I would of been fine. They got pretty unlucky. 2-0
round 2: BR hollow one.
Game one, they land a few too many high toughness threats and I can't find any paths. Game two I keep a decent hand with goyf serum and some paths. Goyf goes to town with an obsession and my opponent can't really draw anything useful. Game three I keep an interesting hand: Steam vents, Opt, Nacatal, Path, Path, Bolt, and Stubborn denial. My thoughts were that I can cast a few important spells in the early game, and I'm one land away from being able to play the game. My opponent goes turn one flameblade adept and I shock in my vents. He goes to burning inquiry turn two and I stub it. They swing for one missing a land drop. On my turn I get the land I need and cast Wild Nacatl Now my 3/3 stares down their 1/2 and my hand is Opt Bolt Bolt Path Path. It was beautiful and easily won. 2-1
Round 3: UR Moon control (with Thing In The Ice)
Game one I have a hand with two tarmogoyf and just beat face. A cool line by me was opting in response to his flame slash to grow the goyf to 4/5. Same as before, goyf with obsession gets the beats in every turn. I was able to counter a Bounce/Draw cryptic with blossoming defense. Nice.
Game two I scry to play around spot removal instead of blood moon. Naturally they land the moon and I am suddenly a total dog in the game. I chose the line I did because my only threat was delver. It was a really close game two, but ultimately it came down to not being able to flip that same delver for a third time. Game three was similar to game one. They had to fetch awkwardly to double bolt a B'fensed threat, thus no longer giving them the ability to safely deploy a blood moon. stub and dispel look really strong vs a hand of multiple cryptic commands. 2-1
Round 4: ID with tron.
The thing to do at my LGS is draw round 4 if you're 3-0. each player gets $30 vs a 40/20 split and its just a feel good thing. would of been interesting to see how the deck would of performed in the matchup. I was too busy trading for some foil shocks for the deck however ^^
After my round 3 I ended up playing a 'for fun' game against the moon opponent. I won on a mull to 5 with a Nacatl defense obsession Land Land hand. It was such a feel good moment and further justified the inclusion of blossoming defense in my build.
Clasm is insane, although I think Humans and Spirits are definitely tricky if you don't use your removal sparingly. We have a critical mass of it, but that just means the matchup is a cakewalk if we're careful, not that we should run around Bolting everything in sight. This article about removal pacing from Jadine resonates with my experience against these decks on Counter-Cat.
That article was amazing. I'm on Monkey Grow, so it goes even more for that deck, where removal is more limited.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
I'm still experimenting with the sideboard, wouldn't mind having a discussion about the cards I'm running there. Outside of the sideboard, I experimented with blossoming defense as a potential problem solver for my 'shields down' problem mentioned in my previous post. I wasn't disappointed.
Round 1: BR instant reanimator
If my opponent ever had the combo, I would of been fine. They got pretty unlucky. 2-0
round 2: BR hollow one.
Game one, they land a few too many high toughness threats and I can't find any paths. Game two I keep a decent hand with goyf serum and some paths. Goyf goes to town with an obsession and my opponent can't really draw anything useful. Game three I keep an interesting hand: Steam vents, Opt, Nacatal, Path, Path, Bolt, and Stubborn denial. My thoughts were that I can cast a few important spells in the early game, and I'm one land away from being able to play the game. My opponent goes turn one flameblade adept and I shock in my vents. He goes to burning inquiry turn two and I stub it. They swing for one missing a land drop. On my turn I get the land I need and cast Wild Nacatl Now my 3/3 stares down their 1/2 and my hand is Opt Bolt Bolt Path Path. It was beautiful and easily won. 2-1
Round 3: UR Moon control (with Thing In The Ice)
Game one I have a hand with two tarmogoyf and just beat face. A cool line by me was opting in response to his flame slash to grow the goyf to 4/5. Same as before, goyf with obsession gets the beats in every turn. I was able to counter a Bounce/Draw cryptic with blossoming defense. Nice.
Game two I scry to play around spot removal instead of blood moon. Naturally they land the moon and I am suddenly a total dog in the game. I chose the line I did because my only threat was delver. It was a really close game two, but ultimately it came down to not being able to flip that same delver for a third time. Game three was similar to game one. They had to fetch awkwardly to double bolt a B'fensed threat, thus no longer giving them the ability to safely deploy a blood moon. stub and dispel look really strong vs a hand of multiple cryptic commands. 2-1
Round 4: ID with tron.
The thing to do at my LGS is draw round 4 if you're 3-0. each player gets $30 vs a 40/20 split and its just a feel good thing. would of been interesting to see how the deck would of performed in the matchup. I was too busy trading for some foil shocks for the deck however ^^
After my round 3 I ended up playing a 'for fun' game against the moon opponent. I won on a mull to 5 with a Nacatl defense obsession Land Land hand. It was such a feel good moment and further justified the inclusion of blossoming defense in my build.
Congratulations for the results!
Some considerations or questions:
I'd never cut path to exile from main for any reason. Why do you play only 3?
Why Sacred foundry? It's the worst land by far. I'd play a mountain before it (at least you can grab it with opponents' paths or trophies). A fetch in its place usually leads to less mulligans (and helps against moons).
Why do you play so many counter post side?
No graveyard hate? I'd cut dispel and stroke for two pieces of grave hate (Surgical or trap).
How did Knight of Autumn perform? I thought about it in place of revelry, but always thought it a bit too mana intensive.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Decks played: Modern:
0 Affinity;
URG Delver
URGW Countercats
(Here you can find some video contents about Countercats and Temur Delver decks)
Thanks so much for your feedback! Im a RUG delver player for a few years, but still pretty new to this deck so Im sure there are things I can be doing better. Ill try to answer your questions.
I wanted to fit 3 blossoming defense into my deck for that evening, and I figured that pumping my creature in combat to kill an x/4 could be a decent path impression. That being said, I definitely want to go back up to 4 path. I mostly needed the room to test out something new.
I like what you said about sacred foundry, another fetch sounds a lot better. I think foundry is good at casting SB cards and turning on nacatl in your breeding pool hands, but its still unquestionably the worst land in the deck. Ill probably cut it.
I play a ton of counters in the SB because I still want to be interactive in matchups where path or blossoming defense are bad. Our best games are the ones where we stick a threat and have interaction up. I wanted to make sure that held true in matchups such as grishoal, or control. This mindset might be flawed though, if you really hate packing extra counters maybe I should re evaluate that idea.
Ive chosen to ignore graveyards because Ill sleep at night if I lose to dredge. I dont feel like I need hate in this deck outside of that one matchup, and Id rather put my % points elsewhere.
knight of autumn was definitely an experiment. I wanted to be able to blow up enchantments, and I also liked that the card had text vs burn. It was great when I resolved it vs hollow one, but I was already wining that game.
Sideboard question @ anybody who plays the deck.
Against UWx do you keep path post side? If so how many copies? I usually keep 3 because of colonnades and angels (lyra, baneslayer and sometimes restoration).
What do you think and do?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Decks played: Modern:
0 Affinity;
URG Delver
URGW Countercats
(Here you can find some video contents about Countercats and Temur Delver decks)
Sideboard question @ anybody who plays the deck.
Against UWx do you keep path post side? If so how many copies?
I like keeping 2. By the time you see it, you'll need it but likely no sooner.
On another note, I've been really liking pithing needle against UW. it hits colonnade but more importantly it hits their nasty planeswalkers. I've been trying a few different artifacts in my SB as a way to hedge against our own mana base but I think Needle and cage are the keepers.
Sideboard question @ anybody who plays the deck.
Against UWx do you keep path post side? If so how many copies? I usually keep 3 because of colonnades and angels (lyra, baneslayer and sometimes restoration).
What do you think and do?
2 Path, sometimes I go down to 1, but it mainly depends on what exactly I have in my board.
I like keeping 2. By the time you see it, you'll need it but likely no sooner.
On another note, I've been really liking pithing needle against UW. it hits colonnade but more importantly it hits their nasty planeswalkers. I've been trying a few different artifacts in my SB as a way to hedge against our own mana base but I think Needle and cage are the keepers.
Needle, EE and Cage are all allstars, so no reason to not play them when the metagame demands for such answers.
Greetings,
Kathal
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
FNM
2-0 ad naus
2-1 GW value
2-0 burn
2-0 bant spirits.
Modern Monday
2-1 Dredge
2-0 Amulet
2-1 G tron
ID VS living end. (played for fun, won 2-1)
Any input on the decklist before I go head first into my first RPTQ with the deck? breeding pool feels awkward, but its almost like a necessary evil. I'm still not completely comfortable with my UWx matchup, and don't know if I have enough for pheonix. I usually play Ad Nauseam, should I play AdNaus at this event even though I have an 80% win rate (insane!) right now with the deck above? Give me something to think about, I have a few days to make up my mind.
Any input on the decklist before I go head first into my first RPTQ with the deck? breeding pool feels awkward, but its almost like a necessary evil. I'm still not completely comfortable with my UWx matchup, and don't know if I have enough for pheonix. I usually play Ad Nauseam, should I play AdNaus at this event even though I have an 80% win rate (insane!) right now with the deck above? Give me something to think about, I have a few days to make up my mind.
Thanks,
Ryan
First of all congratulation for your impressive results!
About your doubts:
Breeding pool is a wonderful 3rd land but an awful 1st or 2nd one. So never lead with it even if you have a completely UG hand and it should be ok.
Why mesa over foothills? mesa can't fetch basics (nor pool for what it's worth) so it's worse against moons or burn.
I think phoenix MU is doable. Pressure + interaction is a good way to beat it and we are pretty good at this. Pre side path is the mvp. Then post side you have sphere that makes phoenix almost impossible to get back from the yard since they need at least 6 mana to do it and even cages if needed. The version of the deck most difficult to beat imho is the one that plays revelers: Trap helps keeping them uncastable. Lifegain can be useful to buy us a couple of turns to beat them with creatures. I think you have the tools to beat them. And remember: always counter manamorphose if you can.
UW is tricky. I haven't played it enough to help.
About RPTQ: the level should be higher than the FNM. That said you should play whatever you feel more confortable with. I think that Countercats is quite well positioned right now imho. I don't know anything about Ad Nauseam since it is a deck I never played and I fought it so little.
Last SB card was Negate, which has always been in the deck. Added it to the list.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Super interested in this list. Been away from Modern for a long time because of year-round University (and perhaps sort of will be still, but am missing it real bad so want to come back at least for a bit). For the most part I'm on board, just have a few questions:
1. Having a hard time figuring out when to bring in Reflector Mage. In the article you say it replaces Path to Exile, though am wondering when it would be subpar to bring in vs PtE. For instance, Path to Exile seems great against Humans, while Reflector Mage perhaps feels subpar against a deck that is most potent with Aether Vials. Is it still worth it to bring them in against such a deck? Or is it better to hope to rely on Kozilek's Return to clear out the early squad and hope to race their Mantis Riders with our own creatures? Seems really good against other decks where Path to Exile shine, like Hollow One.
2. Has 4xMutagenic Growth been good for you? Does it ever feel like too many? I've never actually played with the card, but it seems really good. I thought the Mental Mistep comparison seemed real accurate sometimes. Do you still feel that 4x is good, or do you think 3x would work just as well without over-saturating your hand with the pump spell.
3. I'm considering running Tribal Flames as a 2-of. I know you've cut it and seem to be happier without it, but I just love that card so much. Perhaps a Pet Card situation. So, I guess hypothetically if you WERE to run Tribal Flames, which black dual do you think would work best? Usually I just use Blood Crypt sort of as though I were playing a basic Mountain, but am wondering if that's correct here or if red isn't a dominant enough color.
4. Is Knight of Autumn good here? Either main-board or in the 75 in total? Might try them sideboard.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Hooting Mandrills
1 Snapcaster Mage
4 Serum Visions
3 Faithless Looting
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Tarfire
4 Path to Exile
2 Mutagenic Growth
2 Spell Pierce
1 Stubborn Denial
1 Spell Snare
2 Mana Leak
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Stomping Ground
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Steam Vents
1 Temple Garden
1 Breeding Pool
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Damping Sphere
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Hazoret the Fervent
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Shapers' Sanctuary
1 Experimental Frenzy
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Destructive Revelry
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Negate
2 Pyroclasm
I manage to cast Experimental Frenzy only once against jund and completely changed the game. In a couple of turns in which I manage to virtually draw and play 3 cards, they just scooped even if I was at 5 and they at 16 both top deck. Actually it's pretty anecdotal but I'll keep it in side for sure right now.
Modern:
My current list is in my article from today:
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Hooting Mandrills
1 Snapcaster Mage
Instants (19)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
2 Mana Leak
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
2 Thought Scour
1 Opt
3 Mutagenic Growth
Sorceries (7)
4 Serum Visions
1 Sleight of Hand
1 Faithless Looting
1 Chart a Course
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Stomping Ground
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Steam Vents
1 Temple Garden
1 Breeding Pool
1 Island
1 Forest
2 Damping Sphere
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Destructive Revelry
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Hazoret the Fervent
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Shapers' Sanctuary
2 Pyroclasm
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Negate
1 Mountain
Our gripe with Looting in this deck: CC uses all its cards over the course of most games, so there's rarely stuff we want to just throw away. Like we're happy to save a Muta or Snare until the right moment even if it's not doing anything right now. That's also why Chart is so good: getting 2 new cards is huge when both of them are valuable. Looting still makes the cut in my build mostly as a Snapcaster-esque card, AKA insurance against go-long decks. It can also be used to dig into answers or lands in dire situations, but I wouldn't want to run more than one because that doesn't come up so often. I'm also open to cutting it but I really like having a dedicated way in the 75 to chew through extra fetches in grindy matchups and don't want any of my sideboard cards in my mainboard, so I can't just swap Looting for one of those.
I have been thinking about testing Peek after seeing Nikachu's video on the card in Merfolk. Probably over the Sleight for starters. I vividly remember how insane the info from Probe was with our counter/removal/threat suite in this deck and was sad to see that card go.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
With this configuration (few cantrips) I wanted to try EF. It may be overkill and I'm not completely sold already. I'll try it more and see.
Modern:
With this kind of split it actually feels more like 6 cantrips than 9, because the instants give you a lot of flexibility as to when to cast them. You don't have to commit main phase mana doing that and decide between casting creatures or holding up permission. I don't see any kind of interplay between cantrip timing in your list and think paying attention to that difference might sell you on more cantrips over something like Mountain. One thing I don't like about Looting main is it messes with our colors: what makes our manabase so smooth is that Bolt and Path are the only non-UG cards in the deck. Mountain is a dead draw in so many games and only worth it as a 3rd or 4th land, or as a bring-in vs. decks that will Path/Field/Quarter you a lot (Trophy is miserable against this and other aggro decks). I think if you try Helix you will find it straight-up uncastable a good chunk of the time.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
- When playing Tribal Flames version, is it too harsh on manabase to switch 2 out of 3 Hooting Mandrills for Tasigur, the Golden Fang? Is it even worth it to get +0/+1 and abillity to maybe get some CA?
- Might be Worldly Counsel better than Chart a Course in the same spot? Is the "filling graveyard" part of Chart a Course that important? or is the superior card sellection more valuable?
- Can you get away with 3-4 delve threats and 2+Snapcaster Mage?
- How is Counter-Cat's matchup vs midrange (Jund, Abzan,...)? Do you need to devote some sideboard slots to it?
- With prevelance of Path to Exile and Assassin's Trophy should we consider to run a basic in sideboard?
- With running 4 Tarmogoyf and 3 Hooting Mandrills is Stubborn Denial better than Spell Pierce most of the time?
- Is there any chance to go more control build with Ionize?
- Can you keep 3 lands 4 spells hand without threat in the dark? (e.g fetch, fetch, shock, Bolt, Visions, Path, Spell Pierce)
Thanks for any answers
Some of these questions have been answered on this very page. Out of curiosity, have you done any reading on the deck?
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
I've been jamming some counter cat at a few events, and I've identified a problem with my build. We can all agree that the optimal 2 lands to have are UW/R and GR/W. In my deck, I use curious obsession to gain card advantage and pull ahead of my opponents. The card has been great for me when it works. It grows our Wild Nacatl out of bolt range and allows both our 1 drops to trigger stubborn denial. The problem with the card however (and other traditonal CA spells in this deck) is that it requires us to tap our (potentially) only blue source, leaving our creatures defenseless to spot removal. I have come up with two solutions to this problem.
1) play the card keen sense. This allows us to execute our card draw plan, while letting us leave up U for counter magic. The downside is that you lose out on the other benefits of obsession, but it allows you to keep shields up for what will probably be the most important turn of the game for your opponent.
2) play the card disrupting shoal. Disrupting shoal is another card that lets us keep our shields up even when we tap our blue mana. I wouldn't mind jamming it into counter cat again, but I feel like the card can be almost as clunky as lightning helix.
What are your thoughts on these solutions? I think having a draw spell in green could be an effective solution, even though the green aura is much worse than the blue one. Do you have any other ideas? I feel like this issue is very solvable.
Keen Sense seems gross; the +1 from Obsession is insane in a deck with one-mana 3/3s, 4/4 tramplers, and Tarmogoyf.
Seems to me like the card you want more of is Chart a Course. Don't worry about tapping down the U; if you draw into Mutas, you can protect from damage-based removal even with no mana, and Chart draws us into more threats anyway. But if you really want another value generator for your metagame, I'd recommend going up on Snapcaster.
Here's the list Kelsey and I are playing right now:
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Hooting Mandrills
1 Snapcaster Mage
Instant 19
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
2 Thought Scour
1 Opt
3 Mutagenic Growth
2 Spell Pierce
2 Mana Leak
1 Spell Snare
4 Serum Visions
1 Chart a Course
2 Sleight of Hand
Land 18
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Stomping Ground
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Steam Vents
1 Temple Garden
1 Breeding Pool
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Damping Sphere
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Hazoret the Fervent
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Shapers' Sanctuary
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Negate
1 Destructive Revelry
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroclasm
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Then I'm having some problems with go-wide deck (Humans, Spirits, G devotion, etc.) since I find the 2 damage of Pyroclasm too few sometimes. I'm going to try Radiant Flames since you can uptick the damage to 3 if needed. I'm also trying a Blossoming Defense instead of the third Muta to have an edge against non-damage removals (and abilities such as the one from Reflector Mage).
Modern:
I suggest trying the new card deafening clarion as it has some really strong text against burn.
Clasm is insane, although I think Humans and Spirits are definitely tricky if you don't use your removal sparingly. We have a critical mass of it, but that just means the matchup is a cakewalk if we're careful, not that we should run around Bolting everything in sight. This article about removal pacing from Jadine resonates with my experience against these decks on Counter-Cat.
I think a lot of our "good" matchups only become good once the pilot has learned to play against the deck. CC has so many lines available each turn, and so many tools/plans available for games 2 and 3, that this experience is invaluable and generally preferable to aggressively tuning the sideboard in one direction or another. Prime examples: Humans, Burn, Jeskai. The challenge of finding an ideal plan and playstyle for each matchup is the main thing that keeps me coming back to this deck.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
DeckStats Link
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Hooting Mandrills
1 Snapcaster Mage
Cantrips:
3 Curious Obsession
4 Serum Visions
2 Thought Scour
2 Opt
Interaction:
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Path to Exile
1 Mana Leak
2 Spell Pierce
1 Stubborn Denial
1 Spell Snare
3 Blossoming Defense
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
1 Temple Garden
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
1 Breeding Pool
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Island
1 Forest
4 Serum Visions
2 Damping Sphere
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Hazoret the Fervent
2 Deafening Clarion
2 Stubborn Denial
1 Dispel
1 Negate
1 Disdainful Stroke
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Knight of Autumn
I'm still experimenting with the sideboard, wouldn't mind having a discussion about the cards I'm running there. Outside of the sideboard, I experimented with blossoming defense as a potential problem solver for my 'shields down' problem mentioned in my previous post. I wasn't disappointed.
Round 1: BR instant reanimator
If my opponent ever had the combo, I would of been fine. They got pretty unlucky. 2-0
round 2: BR hollow one.
Game one, they land a few too many high toughness threats and I can't find any paths. Game two I keep a decent hand with goyf serum and some paths. Goyf goes to town with an obsession and my opponent can't really draw anything useful. Game three I keep an interesting hand: Steam vents, Opt, Nacatal, Path, Path, Bolt, and Stubborn denial. My thoughts were that I can cast a few important spells in the early game, and I'm one land away from being able to play the game. My opponent goes turn one flameblade adept and I shock in my vents. He goes to burning inquiry turn two and I stub it. They swing for one missing a land drop. On my turn I get the land I need and cast Wild Nacatl Now my 3/3 stares down their 1/2 and my hand is Opt Bolt Bolt Path Path. It was beautiful and easily won. 2-1
Round 3: UR Moon control (with Thing In The Ice)
Game one I have a hand with two tarmogoyf and just beat face. A cool line by me was opting in response to his flame slash to grow the goyf to 4/5. Same as before, goyf with obsession gets the beats in every turn. I was able to counter a Bounce/Draw cryptic with blossoming defense. Nice.
Game two I scry to play around spot removal instead of blood moon. Naturally they land the moon and I am suddenly a total dog in the game. I chose the line I did because my only threat was delver. It was a really close game two, but ultimately it came down to not being able to flip that same delver for a third time. Game three was similar to game one. They had to fetch awkwardly to double bolt a B'fensed threat, thus no longer giving them the ability to safely deploy a blood moon. stub and dispel look really strong vs a hand of multiple cryptic commands. 2-1
Round 4: ID with tron.
The thing to do at my LGS is draw round 4 if you're 3-0. each player gets $30 vs a 40/20 split and its just a feel good thing. would of been interesting to see how the deck would of performed in the matchup. I was too busy trading for some foil shocks for the deck however ^^
After my round 3 I ended up playing a 'for fun' game against the moon opponent. I won on a mull to 5 with a Nacatl defense obsession Land Land hand. It was such a feel good moment and further justified the inclusion of blossoming defense in my build.
That article was amazing. I'm on Monkey Grow, so it goes even more for that deck, where removal is more limited.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Congratulations for the results!
Some considerations or questions:
Modern:
Thanks so much for your feedback! Im a RUG delver player for a few years, but still pretty new to this deck so Im sure there are things I can be doing better. Ill try to answer your questions.
Against UWx do you keep path post side? If so how many copies? I usually keep 3 because of colonnades and angels (lyra, baneslayer and sometimes restoration).
What do you think and do?
Modern:
I like keeping 2. By the time you see it, you'll need it but likely no sooner.
On another note, I've been really liking pithing needle against UW. it hits colonnade but more importantly it hits their nasty planeswalkers. I've been trying a few different artifacts in my SB as a way to hedge against our own mana base but I think Needle and cage are the keepers.
2 Path, sometimes I go down to 1, but it mainly depends on what exactly I have in my board.
Needle, EE and Cage are all allstars, so no reason to not play them when the metagame demands for such answers.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Hooting Mandrills
1 Snapcaster Mage
Cantrips
3 Curious Obsession
4 Serum Visions
2 Thought Scour
2 Opt
Interaction
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
1 Mana Leak
2 Spell Pierce
1 Stubborn Denial
1 Spell Snare
2 Blossoming Defense
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
1 Temple Garden
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
1 Breeding Pool
1 Island
1 Forest
2 Damping Sphere
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
2 Hazoret the Fervent
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Feed the Clan
1 Stubborn Denial
1 Ravenous Trap
2 Deafening Clarion
FNM
2-0 ad naus
2-1 GW value
2-0 burn
2-0 bant spirits.
Modern Monday
2-1 Dredge
2-0 Amulet
2-1 G tron
ID VS living end. (played for fun, won 2-1)
Any input on the decklist before I go head first into my first RPTQ with the deck? breeding pool feels awkward, but its almost like a necessary evil. I'm still not completely comfortable with my UWx matchup, and don't know if I have enough for pheonix. I usually play Ad Nauseam, should I play AdNaus at this event even though I have an 80% win rate (insane!) right now with the deck above? Give me something to think about, I have a few days to make up my mind.
Thanks,
Ryan
First of all congratulation for your impressive results!
About your doubts:
Modern: