Quote from slipknot72102 »the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Quote from Antonlarsjohansson »Sounds intresting! Like the addition of Hooting Mandrills! But I would prefer 2 Lightning Helix over some Countermagic
Quote from BobMcFail »Quote from Lantern »Thanks for making this!
We should merge both counter cat threads! With we I mean you
Quote from Lantern »Thanks for making this!
Quote from Antonlarsjohansson »Why not Vapor Snag instead of Path to Exile? Atleast 2 or so.
Quote from Capt. Nick »I started a thread a couple weeks ago on this. Didn't feel like a primer was necessary but if there is one, I'd rather get some discussion going on the deck. I've been playing the deck on and off for something like 6 months. A little after the unban of Nacatl. The idea being that dropping a decent clock on turn 1 followed by infinite tempo would win games. It went 4-0 the second time I played the deck. I've been wanting to refine the list to prep for a GP in February. Here's what I've been running:
Counter CatMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
Creatures: 164 Delver of Secrets4 Noble Hierarch4 Wild Nacatl1 Grim Lavamancer3 Snapcaster MageSpells: 254 Lightning Bolt4 Serum Visions1 Spell Snare2 Spell Pierce4 Lightning Helix4 Mana Leak4 Remand1 Electrolyze1 Sword of Fire and IceLands :191 Forest1 Island1 Mountain1 Moorland Haunt4 Arid Mesa4 Misty Rainforest2 Steam Vents2 Temple Garden1 Stomping Ground1 Sacred Foundry1 Hallowed FountainSideboard: 152 Ancient Grudge1 Back to Nature1 Counterflux2 Path to Exile2 Spellskite1 Stony Silence1 Thrun, the Last Troll1 Timely Reinforcements1 Leyline of Sanctity2 Tormod's Crypt1 Wear // Tear
I've been liking 19 lands but I may try out going to 18. I don't agree with running 10-12 fetches. It seems excessive. I need to cut Sacred Foundry from my list. I had a couple hands recently where it made getting the right colors off of my opening hand difficult. I highly recommend Noble Hierarch in this deck. Not only does it give you mana advantage and decent mana fixing but Exalted is also extremely relevant in cutting the clock down on the deck. Going from 7 turns to kill to 5 (assuming no other damage/lifegain). Moorland Haunt has been an awesome source of grindy advantage. It was better with Runechanter's Pike but with Grim Lavamancer and Snapcaster, Pike has gotten a bit worse in the deck. Sword of Fire and Ice has been pretty great but 3cmc is a bit awkward.
Quote from Capt. Nick »However, I hope this is just us getting off to a poor start and would like to give you the benefit of the doubt. Just in the future I would like to get better responses than "Play a different deck."
How has Gitaxian Probe been working for you? I've considered running it but I don't like the uncertainty it put into an opening hand as well as taking additional damage on top of starting most games at 14-16 life. Has it been worthwhile for you? Has it cost you any games? With only 2 Helix to off set the self inflicted damage, I'd imagine Burn and Affinity end up being extremely difficult match ups.
Quote from Lemonbuster »While it is always more ideal to start with a one drop on turn one, and a second one drop on turn two with something like spell pierce up, there are many games where your first two threats will just flat out die, even through countermagic. Expecting to never see a late game pretty much means you will have a very hard time recovering when you inevitability face multiple turns of watching your one drops eat abrupt decays, and drawing noble hierarchs instead of goyfs is pretty bad when you dont have a board presence. Goyf plays a very essential roll in this deck in that it will always be the biggest threat on the field so you can assume you will never be forced to stop attacking by being outclassed, he is more than cheap enough to deploy while holding up countermagic, and he is literally the only creature in the deck that dodges bolt and damage based sweepers which are ridiculously good against this archetype.
Quote from TOXICjoker »I would appreciate your feedback regarding the following points:
1.) Playing without serum vision / probe but instead with more burn / reach
2.) Overall thoughts regarding the list above
3.) Cards which improve our BGx MU post SB in general - consider: we have the potential to play 4-5 colours, we have a low land count (casting cost / colour requirement), ideally it is an instant or sorcery (Delver/Snapcaster)
Quote from TOXICjoker »PS.: I did some thinking and wondered if anyone tried a transformational SB so far? Legacy UR Delver does often board into a primary burn deck post SB. Looking at my latest decklist we are not too far off. This post-SB plan would allow us to win the game on a very non-interactive axis like most combo decks do with the benefit of still be able to play a "normal" game of magic. If the maindeck does play enough burn (4 bolt, 4 helix, 4 boros charm / tribal flames) the SB would need approx 7 slots to transform into a makeshift burn deck (5 rift bolt / lava spike / tribal flames (probably with a singelton watery grave / blood crypt in the board) + 2 Isochron Scepter (Pat Cox did a video series on zoo where he played it in the board and used it to break up certain MUs) ).
This would give us a very proactive gameplan against BGx decks which are known for not being well equipped against burn strategies and most of the cards double up as additional removal spells in certain MUs (mainly affinity and pod).
Quote from TOXICjoker »Btw.: How do you think the ideal mana base will look like with the addition of onslought fetches? Additionally do you think I should get rid of the second steam vents (I really think I need 10 fetches)? I am uncertain regarding breeding pool / foundry - I do like the possibility to get all played colours with all fetchlands in every combination.
Quote from Kathal »I will post a longer post/explanation in the next few days, since I have atm only a little time.
If someone wants to play Scepter (like myself), he has to acknowledge that scepter shouldn't be a 2 drop but a 4 drop. If you have 4 mana and cast a scpeter you will never get 2 for 1. Furthermore, imprinting a Boros Charm is the best case scenario. Why? Because it can protect itself due to the indestructible part from the Charm. Hence, the opponent would need 2 cards to get rid of Scepter (first one would get "countered" by the boros charm).
I will post my brainstormed list in the next few days (basically the 4c version, since Tribal Flames got worse due to the printing of Hooting Ape).
Quote from Kathal »I think, I wrote it a bit wrong. Tribal Flames get worse, because you don't need it anymore, since you have Goyf 5-6. Tribal Flames provides you an insane reach, but due to the Ape you doesn't "need" it anymore. The ape is basically a Tribal Flames but only as creature. That is my point. They found on the same principle, as a game finisher. And most of the times a Tribal Flames is as good as a Ape, but the Ape can deal more damage, where Tribal Flames is basically one use only (exception is with Snapcaster). That was my thought process behind it.
Quote from Kathal »Regarding Scepter, of course you want to use it, but you should play it when you have 4 mana. At that point, you can never get 2 for 1, because you can still get at least one copy of the imprinted spell and then it is a "2 for 2". Afterwards, you use it normal, so most of the times eot. You shouldn't hold it up every turn and don't use it because you are afraid of Decay, in the end it is a decayable thread, which doesn't get hit by Bolt/Path/Dismember..., which is insane. I would run it as 2 of in the SB since you want it nearly in every match-up, where there is no decay (all URx decks, other Tempo decks, Zoo, Affinity, Combo decks (I heard, imprinting a Remand/Manaleak provides a little bit of value ) or other fair non BGx decay decks (pod e.g. (I'm not sure here, because they play Sliver/Sage as Tutor target)).
Quote from "ashtonkutcher" »It's not "transformational" per se, but this sideboard lets me completely change the way the deck functions. Against creature decks (i.e. Merfolk), I board out Remand, Gitaxian Probe, and Spell Pierce for Lightning Helix, Combust, Forked Bolt, Destructive Revelry, and Spell Snare. Against control decks (i.e. Tron), I board out Helix and Bolt for Negate, Spell Snare, and Boros Charm. After siding, the deck can have up to 10 burn spells (4 Bolt, 3 Helix, 3 Boros) or up to 12 counters (Remand, Leak, Pierce, Snare, Negate), which basically just leaves room for the creatures and the cantrips. Probe + Visions don't just take up room, though; they virtually increase the amount of each other card I run. 10 burn spells or 12 counters + 7 cantrips is no joke when those kinds of cards are good.