These lists seem pretty decent. Perhaps the mana bases could use some tweaking, but I guess Chief Engineer does what we want and just better compared to Heartless Summonings..
Yea, personally I like Æther Vial in the deck and think of it as Heartless Summoning. Its provides the redundancy in playing Myr Superion and acts as an extra "mana source".
Giving pseudo flash to my creatures is also nice...
So with the resurgence of control decks in my meta, i'm wondering... is it time to dust off my old pet card, trading post? I'd play them over 2x mortarpods. I was playing them a long time ago and they have great synergy with hangarback walker, wurmcoil engine and vedalken shackles.
Seems like they would provide lots of utility in grindy games. They are not even bad in aggro matchups because of the life gain option. I like that they can't be abrupt decayed but kolaghan's command is annoying. I also like the extra value you get from a spellskite that is about to die, and they protect walkers and wurmcoils from path to exile!
But I think Trading Post can be great against non Stony Silence type control decks.
Oh yeah, forgot about that. Yeah most control deck i face are white, good point on not giving them more targets for stony silence...
Right now i'm debating phyrexian metamorph or batterskull x2 main deck. I feel like skull is always decent but morph is more flexible and easier to cast. But sometimes you just don't have any juicy morph targets.... Since i'm looking to increase my threat density i might give skull a try. What do you think? Have you tried skull recently? If so, has skull been any good to you?
@Ace1, yea I've been running a one of Batterskull in the list since the beginning:
Batterskull:
-Comes down a turn before Wurmcoil Engine or Triskelion.
-Is good against control when they wrath or play Path to Exile.
-Is another source of life gain for the grindy/burn matchups.
-Can equipt and turn any of our creatures into serious threats.
Not sure what your current list looks like, but I'd just do a 1:1 split with Batterskull and Phyrexian Metamorph. Metamorph can sometimes just "become another Batterskull" if necessary.
Here's a list I've been playing around with. It goes heavier on tax effects and has a stronger focus on curving out. Any thoughts on relegating the revokers to the sideboard and replacing them with signal pests mainboard? On another note, why is there so much love for Hangarback Walker? Is it solely the resiliency?
Here's a list I've been playing around with. It goes heavier on tax effects and has a stronger focus on curving out. Any thoughts on relegating the revokers to the sideboard and replacing them with signal pests mainboard? On another note, why is there so much love for Hangarback Walker? Is it solely the resiliency?
Yeah i think revoker is sb material, sometimes it just doesn't do anything. If it could hit lands like pithing needle i'd play them main but they can't. Walker is just great vs midrange and control. With all the fast mana we have you can slam them and be huge, or just turn 2 them and tick them up, or just chump or eat a liliana of the veil -2. Their flexibility makes them great for curving actually.
On a side note i'd max out on the chief engineer rather than etherium sculptor if i had to choose between the two. Chief is hasty mana like architect while sculptor has the survive a turn to give value.
@Ace1, yea I've been running a one of Batterskull in the list since the beginning:
Batterskull:
-Comes down a turn before Wurmcoil Engine or Triskelion.
-Is good against control when they wrath or play Path to Exile.
-Is another source of life gain for the grindy/burn matchups.
-Can equipt and turn any of our creatures into serious threats.
Not sure what your current list looks like, but I'd just do a 1:1 split with Batterskull and Phyrexian Metamorph. Metamorph can sometimes just "become another Batterskull" if necessary.
Alright i hadn't considered 1:1 split, makes a lot of sense, i'll try that. As i said i'm looking to increase the number of high impact draw, since i run the full 12 of mana vedalkens to maximize consistency. Topdecking batterskull seems better than topdecking mortarpod, and my early game is already pretty decent. As for my list not much has changed:
@nilcipher: for the aggro route i really like signal pest. It turns your mana guys into actual threats and when the pump adds up with grand architect you can get a lot of damage in with an otherwise lackluster draw. Also has the random benefict of getting through ensnaring bridge (with architect pump or multple pests).
Here's a list I've been playing around with. It goes heavier on tax effects and has a stronger focus on curving out. Any thoughts on relegating the revokers to the sideboard and replacing them with signal pests mainboard? On another note, why is there so much love for Hangarback Walker? Is it solely the resiliency?
Hangarback Walker is nice for the curve since you can cast it at 2,4,6 etc (Grand Architect produces mana in "twos"). Its resiliency and ability to grow is also very valuable. Its also a nice mana dump. Best artifact to be printed in a long time imo...
You list looks solid, I'd keep probably keep the Phyrexian Revoker but remove both Thorn of Amethyst. I started with Thorn in the main and found it to be fairly situational...alot of modern decks are creature based so the tax is seldom felt. It also makes Shackles, Swords, Batterskull unnecessarily more expensive...
Also, Sword of Light and Shadow is better than Fire and Ice for this deck imho...it provides a way to recur creatures and its protection is relevant against most removal. The +2/+2 boost inherently gives protection from red spells like bolt etc.
You list looks solid, I'd keep probably keep the Phyrexian Revoker but remove both Thorn of Amethyst. I started with Thorn in the main and found it to be fairly situational...alot of modern decks are creature based so the tax is seldom felt. It also makes Shackles, Swords, Batterskull unnecessarily more expensive...
Also, Sword of Light and Shadow is better than Fire and Ice for this deck imho...it provides a way to recur creatures and its protection is relevant against most removal. The +2/+2 boost inherently gives protection from red spells like bolt etc.
I think you're probably right about the Thorn of Amethyst. There are some match ups where it feels solid, but it does interfere a lot with non-creature artifacts. Two in the sideboard might be the right call for this list. That frees up some room for Signal Pest, which I think is good tech for this deck. Evasive 1-drop artifacts are great with equipment and Chief Engineer. Chief Engineer is so much more impactful when you hit your 1-drop.
The swords question is tough. I definitely prefer drawing a card and getting 2/3rds of a bolt every time I hit a player to gaining 3 life and returning something from my graveyard, but the red/blue protection isn't quite as powerful as the black/white. The prot. blue is sometimes awkward with Grand Architect too. I'll play around with L&S since it does provide an avenue for card advantage, but I think F&I might provide more necessary utility.
On another note, for those of you who have been playing with the deck, what do you think about match-ups? What decks seem to easy to overcome and which seem to be more of a struggle, or even impossible.
You list looks solid, I'd keep probably keep the Phyrexian Revoker but remove both Thorn of Amethyst. I started with Thorn in the main and found it to be fairly situational...alot of modern decks are creature based so the tax is seldom felt. It also makes Shackles, Swords, Batterskull unnecessarily more expensive...
Also, Sword of Light and Shadow is better than Fire and Ice for this deck imho...it provides a way to recur creatures and its protection is relevant against most removal. The +2/+2 boost inherently gives protection from red spells like bolt etc.
I think you're probably right about the Thorn of Amethyst. There are some match ups where it feels solid, but it does interfere a lot with non-creature artifacts. Two in the sideboard might be the right call for this list. That frees up some room for Signal Pest, which I think is good tech for this deck. Evasive 1-drop artifacts are great with equipment and Chief Engineer. Chief Engineer is so much more impactful when you hit your 1-drop.
The swords question is tough. I definitely prefer drawing a card and getting 2/3rds of a bolt every time I hit a player to gaining 3 life and returning something from my graveyard, but the red/blue protection isn't quite as powerful as the black/white. The prot. blue is sometimes awkward with Grand Architect too. I'll play around with L&S since it does provide an avenue for card advantage, but I think F&I might provide more necessary utility.
On another note, for those of you who have been playing with the deck, what do you think about match-ups? What decks seem to easy to overcome and which seem to be more of a struggle, or even impossible.
Of the aggro decks, affinity is the hardest because of evasion. The other aggro deck are relatively easy because we flood the board quickly and we don't take damage from our lands.
Combo is also good because of judge's familiar, which interac early, preventing fast wins from the opponent, and lodestone golem, which locks down some combo decks. Creatureless (or creature light) deck matchups get even better with thorn of amethyst from the sideboard. I play 4x of them in the board because it is very easy to know when to side them in and they insure i have great matchups post board.
...On another note, for those of you who have been playing with the deck, what do you think about match-ups? What decks seem to easy to overcome and which seem to be more of a struggle, or even impossible.
Tron can be a difficult matchup, but I see you run 4x Ghost Quarter and Phyrexian Revoker. Like Ace mentioned, Affinity because of the evasion and speed...they also don't care about Lodestone Golem.
The better matchups are midrange decks that don't run Path to Exile. Against decks like Jund and Grixis, Wurmcoil Engine and Hangarback Walker really shine. We have "inevitability".
Against decks like Chord, Infect and Merfolk I like 2x Dismember. Its one of the few removal options we have that's not too expensive in the face of Lodestone and can be paid with phyrexian mana. Against Infect the life loss doesn't even matter...Vedalken Shackles works aswell but comes down alot later.
Think Ace pretty much summed up control and combo. I think I have a slight advantage over control because I run Æther Vial. But then again it makes me more susceptible to Stony Silence game two...
Sidenote: I'm interested in the mainboard Phyrexian Revoker tech...how has it served you?
Sidenote: I'm interested in the mainboard Phyrexian Revoker tech...how has it served you?
I like that it's another creature that works with the engine. He contributes to strong turn 2 plays. Landing your 1-drop into a t2 chief engineer with a revoker is a pretty strong play if you can get a relevant target. Sometimes it whiffs but, even then, you still have a 2/1 on the field that can be turned sideways. It gets sided out in some matches where I don't feel its targets are that relevant but any match where you would side in a revoker is probably better g1 for having it mainboard.
My reasoning for putting him in mainboard is that I want more ways to interact with my opponent's gameplan. In particular, I want more cards that can lock the other player out of the game to further the efforts of Lodestone Golem (and to act as redundancy). From this point of view, revoker only fills the role I want it to in a few matches and is why I originally added in the Thorn of Amethyst mainboard. However, after playing around a bit, revoker whiffing is annoying but not detrimental. If Thorn of Amethyst misses, I've slowed my gameplan down too much. However, if I played fewer non-creatures, I think Thorn of Amethyst would be a more solid addition to the mainboard. In my list though, it's now been relegated to sideboard tech.
I'd be interested in any ideas about adding more interaction or taxes though. I've seen some lists in the thread with Ensnaring Bridge, but I don't think that card fits well with the aggressive gameplan that seems to have had the most traction here. Also, how has Dismember treated you? Is it worth the 4 life and (sometimes) 2 mana very often?
...I'd be interested in any ideas about adding more interaction or taxes though. I've seen some lists in the thread with Ensnaring Bridge, but I don't think that card fits well with the aggressive gameplan that seems to have had the most traction here. Also, how has Dismember treated you? Is it worth the 4 life and (sometimes) 2 mana very often?
Yea, Bridge works against the aggressive line...if you you really want to "tax" you opponents attackers yet stay on theme, Norn's Annex might be your best bet. Dismember has served well when needing to kill creatures involved in combo-ish decks like Coco, Infect, Elves and Kiki-Jiki shenanigans. It can also help against Merfolk and Affinity. I run a Watery Grave, so sometimes I get away with just paying 2 life for the phyrexian cost. Its worth it when it stops you from losing on the spot to those decks mentioned above...
is a shimmer Myr better strategy then a Chief Engineer to play ever in a endturn of opponent e play some Hindering Light and other counters ? play more like a tempo and card advantages than just a ramp ?
Thoughts on lupine prototype, in a low cost version could be additional beef? I tend to empty my hand very quickly anyways...
I can see it in the last list you posted if you replaced the 2x Wurmcoil Engine.
Yeah, that is what i was thinking, replacing 2x wurmcoil engine and 2x batterskull (alongside myr superion, not instead of them). Havng 8x 5 power threats for 2 mana seems tempting!
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My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
Giving pseudo flash to my creatures is also nice...
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Seems like they would provide lots of utility in grindy games. They are not even bad in aggro matchups because of the life gain option. I like that they can't be abrupt decayed but kolaghan's command is annoying. I also like the extra value you get from a spellskite that is about to die, and they protect walkers and wurmcoils from path to exile!
Thoughts?
But I think Trading Post can be great against non Stony Silence type control decks.
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Oh yeah, forgot about that. Yeah most control deck i face are white, good point on not giving them more targets for stony silence...
Right now i'm debating phyrexian metamorph or batterskull x2 main deck. I feel like skull is always decent but morph is more flexible and easier to cast. But sometimes you just don't have any juicy morph targets.... Since i'm looking to increase my threat density i might give skull a try. What do you think? Have you tried skull recently? If so, has skull been any good to you?
Batterskull:
-Comes down a turn before Wurmcoil Engine or Triskelion.
-Is good against control when they wrath or play Path to Exile.
-Is another source of life gain for the grindy/burn matchups.
-Can equipt and turn any of our creatures into serious threats.
Not sure what your current list looks like, but I'd just do a 1:1 split with Batterskull and Phyrexian Metamorph. Metamorph can sometimes just "become another Batterskull" if necessary.
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
3 Chief Engineer
4 Etherium Sculptor
4 Grand Architect
3 Judge's Familiar
4 Lodestone Golem
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Sage of Epityr
3 Spellskite
2 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Batterskull
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Vedalken Shackles
Land (21)
4 Ghost Quarter
17 Island
4 Blinkmoth Nexus
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Ratchet Bomb
1x Spellskite
2x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Vedalken Shackles
Yeah i think revoker is sb material, sometimes it just doesn't do anything. If it could hit lands like pithing needle i'd play them main but they can't. Walker is just great vs midrange and control. With all the fast mana we have you can slam them and be huge, or just turn 2 them and tick them up, or just chump or eat a liliana of the veil -2. Their flexibility makes them great for curving actually.
On a side note i'd max out on the chief engineer rather than etherium sculptor if i had to choose between the two. Chief is hasty mana like architect while sculptor has the survive a turn to give value.
Alright i hadn't considered 1:1 split, makes a lot of sense, i'll try that. As i said i'm looking to increase the number of high impact draw, since i run the full 12 of mana vedalkens to maximize consistency. Topdecking batterskull seems better than topdecking mortarpod, and my early game is already pretty decent. As for my list not much has changed:
4 judge's familiar
4 signal pest
4 chief engineer
4 etherium sculptor
4 hangarback walker
4 myr superion
2 spellskite
1 phyrexian metamorph
4 lodestone golem
2 wurmcoil engine
artifacts: 3
2 vedalken shackles
1 batterskull
lands: 20
4 blinkmoth nexus
16 snow-covered island
4 thorn of amethyst
2 torpor orb
2 trinket mage
2 pithing needle
2 relic of progenitus
2 chalice of the void
1 grafdigger's cage
@nilcipher: for the aggro route i really like signal pest. It turns your mana guys into actual threats and when the pump adds up with grand architect you can get a lot of damage in with an otherwise lackluster draw. Also has the random benefict of getting through ensnaring bridge (with architect pump or multple pests).
You list looks solid, I'd keep probably keep the Phyrexian Revoker but remove both Thorn of Amethyst. I started with Thorn in the main and found it to be fairly situational...alot of modern decks are creature based so the tax is seldom felt. It also makes Shackles, Swords, Batterskull unnecessarily more expensive...
Also, Sword of Light and Shadow is better than Fire and Ice for this deck imho...it provides a way to recur creatures and its protection is relevant against most removal. The +2/+2 boost inherently gives protection from red spells like bolt etc.
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I think you're probably right about the Thorn of Amethyst. There are some match ups where it feels solid, but it does interfere a lot with non-creature artifacts. Two in the sideboard might be the right call for this list. That frees up some room for Signal Pest, which I think is good tech for this deck. Evasive 1-drop artifacts are great with equipment and Chief Engineer. Chief Engineer is so much more impactful when you hit your 1-drop.
The swords question is tough. I definitely prefer drawing a card and getting 2/3rds of a bolt every time I hit a player to gaining 3 life and returning something from my graveyard, but the red/blue protection isn't quite as powerful as the black/white. The prot. blue is sometimes awkward with Grand Architect too. I'll play around with L&S since it does provide an avenue for card advantage, but I think F&I might provide more necessary utility.
On another note, for those of you who have been playing with the deck, what do you think about match-ups? What decks seem to easy to overcome and which seem to be more of a struggle, or even impossible.
Regarding matchups, my personnal experience is midrange/control decks (with loads of removal/sweepers) are though. Hangarback walker and wurmcoil engine are good but path to exile into snapcaster mage path is hard to beat.
Of the aggro decks, affinity is the hardest because of evasion. The other aggro deck are relatively easy because we flood the board quickly and we don't take damage from our lands.
Combo is also good because of judge's familiar, which interac early, preventing fast wins from the opponent, and lodestone golem, which locks down some combo decks. Creatureless (or creature light) deck matchups get even better with thorn of amethyst from the sideboard. I play 4x of them in the board because it is very easy to know when to side them in and they insure i have great matchups post board.
The better matchups are midrange decks that don't run Path to Exile. Against decks like Jund and Grixis, Wurmcoil Engine and Hangarback Walker really shine. We have "inevitability".
Against decks like Chord, Infect and Merfolk I like 2x Dismember. Its one of the few removal options we have that's not too expensive in the face of Lodestone and can be paid with phyrexian mana. Against Infect the life loss doesn't even matter...Vedalken Shackles works aswell but comes down alot later.
Think Ace pretty much summed up control and combo. I think I have a slight advantage over control because I run Æther Vial. But then again it makes me more susceptible to Stony Silence game two...
Sidenote: I'm interested in the mainboard Phyrexian Revoker tech...how has it served you?
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I like that it's another creature that works with the engine. He contributes to strong turn 2 plays. Landing your 1-drop into a t2 chief engineer with a revoker is a pretty strong play if you can get a relevant target. Sometimes it whiffs but, even then, you still have a 2/1 on the field that can be turned sideways. It gets sided out in some matches where I don't feel its targets are that relevant but any match where you would side in a revoker is probably better g1 for having it mainboard.
My reasoning for putting him in mainboard is that I want more ways to interact with my opponent's gameplan. In particular, I want more cards that can lock the other player out of the game to further the efforts of Lodestone Golem (and to act as redundancy). From this point of view, revoker only fills the role I want it to in a few matches and is why I originally added in the Thorn of Amethyst mainboard. However, after playing around a bit, revoker whiffing is annoying but not detrimental. If Thorn of Amethyst misses, I've slowed my gameplan down too much. However, if I played fewer non-creatures, I think Thorn of Amethyst would be a more solid addition to the mainboard. In my list though, it's now been relegated to sideboard tech.
I'd be interested in any ideas about adding more interaction or taxes though. I've seen some lists in the thread with Ensnaring Bridge, but I don't think that card fits well with the aggressive gameplan that seems to have had the most traction here. Also, how has Dismember treated you? Is it worth the 4 life and (sometimes) 2 mana very often?
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Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
4 Etherium Sculptor
4 Chief Engineer
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Grand Architect
4 Master Transmuter
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Myr Battlesphere
2 Swiftfoot Boots
2 Thousand-Year Elixir
1 Sharuum the Hegemon
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Magister Sphinx
1 Filigree Angel
1 Grim Poppet
1 Sphinx Summoner
6 Island
3 Plains
3 Swamp
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Judge's Familiar
1 Trading Post
1 Scutting Doom Engine
2 Open the Vaults
1 Bident of Thassa
I dont know how to brind mor consistence, but his give few game-wins.
any help ?!
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is Pili-Pala and Train of Thought make a bad mixture ? wat i rearrange to do it ? and Condescend with it to ty do a 2 per 1 ?
is a shimmer Myr better strategy then a Chief Engineer to play ever in a endturn of opponent e play some Hindering Light and other counters ? play more like a tempo and card advantages than just a ramp ?
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Yeah, that is what i was thinking, replacing 2x wurmcoil engine and 2x batterskull (alongside myr superion, not instead of them). Havng 8x 5 power threats for 2 mana seems tempting!
Mausoleum Wanderer
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