Hey guys I've been playing death cloud for a couple week I started with the land destruction version and quickly found that sometimes you have the nuts and your op just loses but most of the time the land destruction was just bad against most decks and was a dead draw so now I'm onto a more planeswalker heavy board control list that looks to just out attrition the opponent it has been working very well and is tons of fun to play. I ordered a play set of assassins trophy and I plan on playing some # in this deck probably 2 in the main 2 in the SB the drawback is real especially in the early game it will definatly be a very skill testing card. But I think having MD answers to anything is worth it.
A land destruction spell that can double as removal for any problem permanent is good for the deck. You can use it to color-screw some decks, or straight up kill lands if they only run a few basics (humans, affinity).
Trophy is good for black green decks, but death Cloud specifically is bad to play alongside Trophy. That's all I'm saying.
When DC splashed white for lingering souls did we ever use PTE? Of course not, even though it's the most efficient creature removal available. Why do you think that is?
Why do you think BW smallpox doesn't use PTE? Decks like these are trying to capitalize on the opponent being short on Mana
I mean, one card reads exile target creature and one card reads destroy target permanent lol. You're thinking that the reason DC didn't play Path was because it gave someone a land, I'd say the reason was because we're playing black and we have a lot of access to good targeted removal that means we don't have to turn to Path.
What we don't have is a two mana, instant effect that says destroy target permanent. That's really powerful. You're crazy if you discount the utility of destroying any permanent for two mana, even it if gives your opponent a land. It's a whole different ballgame from Path. Death Cloud absolutely wants something like this because at the very worst it removes a problematic card and gives your opponent a basic, and at best it straight up destroys any permanent at instant speed with no drawback.
If you think the best part of Death Cloud is being able to pressure your opponent on lands then you can't play Assassin's Trophy with it. Everyone is talking about AT right now and every deck is going to add a basic. You're never going to screw your opponent out of a basic off of AT unless you specifically build a deck to do that (cards like Leonin Arbiter or Aven Mindcensor. I'm not suggesting them for this deck, just saying they work well with AT).
I haven't played Death Cloud in a while so maybe things have changed but when I was playing it the best part was wiping all of my opponent's lands and AT runs counter to that. It's already hard enough to get mana advantage so that we can drop a big death cloud, AT will only make it harder.
I agree that ass trophy will make DC a little less impactful but I dont think it should be a 4 of in the deck and I don't think it should be the go to removal for the deck. As I said in mr previous post when you read the card it seems easy to think that you could just fire it off willy nilly and get rid of whatever card is bothering you at the time. But I think playing the card this way will lead to games being lost due to not being able to outgrind decks as this seems to be the way most DC win. But having and out to any card is an extremely valuable tool and I think that having answers to anything that survives a deathcloud or stops our gameplan post sideboard is to valuable not to play because it might help my opponent. Also remember you dont have to cast it if there are no targets worthy of giving you opponent a basic land for dont cast the card you can sandbag it and discard it to liliana or deathcloud so you can hang on to more relevant cards. Like I said it will take alot of skill to play this card optimally but not playing g it at all just seems silly. Now what is everyone's creature package mine is 1 kitchen finks 2 thrag tusk 2 eternal witness and 1 grave titan but I want to make room for 1 scooze md I play 2 in the side now and it just seems like such a powerful card I'd like to find room for 1 md. Let me know your thoughts. Also I've cut all my fatal push for cast down which I have had incredible results with has anyone else tried them ?
Is anyone still playing and tuning Death Cloud lists? The release of Growth Spiral got my gears spinning on a potential blue splash list and other cards we could include. Maybe Coiling Oracle and Nissa, Steward of Elements?
Is anyone still playing and tuning Death Cloud lists? The release of Growth Spiral got my gears spinning on a potential blue splash list and other cards we could include. Maybe Coiling Oracle and Nissa, Steward of Elements?
The challenge is that dealthcloud requires 3 black mana. Playing nissa for a green and a blue, and then Hitting 3 black the next turn doesnt seem likely.
Is anyone still playing and tuning Death Cloud lists? The release of Growth Spiral got my gears spinning on a potential blue splash list and other cards we could include. Maybe Coiling Oracle and Nissa, Steward of Elements?
The challenge is that dealthcloud requires 3 black mana. Playing nissa for a green and a blue, and then Hitting 3 black the next turn doesnt seem likely.
Maybe. I think the mana is good enough in modern that we could make it happen, especially with the various ways we can sculpt our land needs in the deck. It doesn't seem any less reasonable than Grixis Control decks playing Cryptic Command alongside of Terminate and Anger of the Gods. I've played Cloud lists with a blue splash before and the mana was fine. The issue was more with the reason you'd be splashing blue, and there weren't many at the time. I'm mostly a BUG player so naturally I wanted to try BUG Cloud.
And maybe U still doesn't offer enough of a draw to try it out, but I figured I'd throw it out there since the thread hasn't seen any action in quite some time.
Still curious to see if anyone is playing any lists though - I'm currently on a list very similar to what mcnealstash was trying a couple pages back and I'm really enjoying it. The addition of Primeval Titan and Tireless Tracker gives the deck some angles of attack outside of just resolving a big Cloud.
Here's the deck I'm currently running. I’m still missing one Catacomb, but it shouldn’t make much of a difference - we have near perfect mana regardless.
As I said in my last post, the base of the list is from mcnealstash on the previous page. It differs in a few creatures and planeswalkers, namely Kalitas, Finks, Last Hope and Garruk.
I’m still in the early testing phases so I’m sure numbers will change, but I will say the Primeval Titan innovation mcnealstash proposed is incredibly powerful and by far my favorite part of the deck.
The only card I’m really unsure of at the moment is Garruk Wildspeaker. I’ve played Cloud decks before, so I understand his role pre and post Cloud, but most of the time I’m disappointed when I see him and he doesn’t have the impact I’m looking for, and I think mcnealstash was right to cut him. Any ideas of another creature or walker that could occupy the 4 mana slot? Maybe a full set of Kalitas is good in this meta? A rock deck recently went 5-0 with the same idea, and he has great synergy with Cloud.
Edit: Of course after I question Garruk, he's the lynchpin that held the deck together in a big win. I suppose another card I'm currently question is the inclusion of Finks again - I'm just not sure how well it's actually positioned in the meta, and would mainboard Scavenging Oozes be better? They're still a great threat to draw after Cloud, even though they don't survive like Finks. Thoughts?
Hola amigos. Haven't posted here in a while, but I've heard rumors of the old cycling lands (Barren Moor, etc) coming back, and I always wanted a Life from the Loam engine in this deck as an avenue to victory post-Death Cloud. I also always wanted to max out on Death Clouds, but having too many in the deck led to a lot of awkward draws. I think by incorporating Dark Petition, we can get the best of both worlds, and add consistency in the late game.
Still very speculative, but here is my first list to try.
Definitely agree that we can have some awkward draws with too many Death Clouds. I originally started on 4 but settled on 3 as the sweet spot and haven't been disappointed.
I see you included 3 Assassin's Trophy in your maindeck when you were theory crafting - do you think its versatility outweighs its downside of ramping our opponent and making our Clouds slightly worse? I've been struggling to answer that question as I've been playtesting.
I think the answer might be that its worth playing, but we need to make sure we include enough support cards around it to make sure we still stay ahead, like Sakura-Tribe Elder, Search for Tomorrow, Courser of Kruphix, Nissa, Vastwood Seer, etc. So if you're all-in on 8+ ramp spells, we can negate the downside of it, but if you're on the more controlling build that runs half that, maybe it's not as good? Thoughts?
One, it answers anything. This deck is very reactive, and there will be things that slip through the cracks, so gifting a land is preferable to scooping to expensive or unexpected threats.
Two, there is such a thing as overloading on gifting lands. UW Control does this with Path to Exile + Field of Ruin. The average Modern deck runs around 3 basics, and if you have enough of these effects, by the mid to late game the opponent won't have anymore basics to get. This is actually a backdoor win-condition in my build with the Life from the Loam engine, especially if you find the Ghost Quarter.
And I agree that ramp is strong in the deck, I've just opted for spell-based ramp like Farseek to help fuel Dark Petition.
Not sure how to rack up devotion in addition to the borderposts. Evil Presence is funny, but probably unplayable. Also kind of a non-bo with Death Cloud. Same goes for Contaminated Ground, but it's slower. Does make the opponent lose 3 from fetches though. I feel like neither are close to being playable.
I keep thinking about that shell though and how a very early Death Cloud with borderposts on the battlefield would really set the opponent back for pretty much any deck they are playing. Any thoughts on how this janky idea could be put to the test?
I keep thinking about that shell though and how a very early Death Cloud with borderposts on the battlefield would really set the opponent back for pretty much any deck they are playing. Any thoughts on how this janky idea could be put to the test?
Not sure, I've never really thought about Devotion as a mechanic to pair with Death Cloud, but I'd assume you want cards like Phyrexian Arena that would stick around after and provide 2 BB. Not sure that the borderposts offer enough, but I could be wrong. Maybe Phyrexian Obliterator has a home there?
I’ve been going back and forth on a lot of different aspects of the deck, but I think this is 95% of the main and side I want to run next weekend at SCG Cleveland.
I’ve played variants that are super heavy on Scooze and Kalitas, trying to have strong game against Phoenix and Dredge in game 1. I’ve also tested traditional builds that are heavy on Finks and Thragtusk, that are more all-In on resolving Cloud and leaving bodies behind afterwards.
Ultimately, I didn’t really like either of these. Scooze (surprisingly) underwhelmed me against a lot of the current meta, as did Finks and Thragtusk. I've always loved Scooze in traditional Rock decks and in Sultai, but it just doesn't feel as effective or impactful here. I went back to the Primeval Titan + Tireless Tracker build that focused on synergy with the ramp already built into the deck, and the list started to make sense again.
Curious to hear some thoughts on the build before my final week of testing and if anyone has any suggestions.
I think I would look to play a lot of creatures that disrupt the opponent and add devotion. Obviously, recursive creatures would help as you mentioned.
I don't think playing the borderposts equates into a quick and consistent deathcloud. Therefore, you should try to disrupt the opponent with discard and creatures while building devotion.
A Death Cloud list just went up on Goldfish that's pretty neat. Jadelight Ranger + 4 Liliana the Last Hope is pretty interesting, as is Bitterblossom. It's definitely too late for me to change up what I'm playing this weekend, but I may give this list a try afterwards.
Last night at FNM I played the above decklist. The deck felt great, I went 3-1 beating 8-Whack, Elves and Nexus Reclamation and losing to BW Midrange. A few notes; The aggressive decks were great to play against when I pulled off a Death cloud or a Damnation. Ratchet Bomb didn't feel great, it's a really slow card. Wrench Mind is a terrible top deck, and this deck often falls into a top deck war. I'd like some suggestions on some good sideboard cards for top deck wars if any one has any? I was thinking Bloodghast could be a good inclusion, and as a way to get value from Liliana of the Veil and Death Cloud. I'm also thinking about good cards for playing against Whir/Prison and came up with Torment of Hailfire as a possible way to dome them or make them sacrifice their board. Although Solemn Simulacrum is a cool card, It's incredibly slow and only a 2 for 1 usually, considering it gets swept away with Damnation and Death Cloud. I'd almost rather Phyrexian Totem than Solemn Simulacrum. It leaves a 5/5 after a sweeper, rather than just netting one random card off the top. Even then, I don't know where I would make room for it. Thought-Knot Seer is a bit too much of a non-bo with Death Cloud, giving them a free card draw.
I disagree. Why do we want to be ramping them if we're hoping to gain an advantage by casting a Death Cloud?
Draft My Cube!
When DC splashed white for lingering souls did we ever use PTE? Of course not, even though it's the most efficient creature removal available. Why do you think that is?
Why do you think BW smallpox doesn't use PTE? Decks like these are trying to capitalize on the opponent being short on Mana
Draft My Cube!
What we don't have is a two mana, instant effect that says destroy target permanent. That's really powerful. You're crazy if you discount the utility of destroying any permanent for two mana, even it if gives your opponent a land. It's a whole different ballgame from Path. Death Cloud absolutely wants something like this because at the very worst it removes a problematic card and gives your opponent a basic, and at best it straight up destroys any permanent at instant speed with no drawback.
I haven't played Death Cloud in a while so maybe things have changed but when I was playing it the best part was wiping all of my opponent's lands and AT runs counter to that. It's already hard enough to get mana advantage so that we can drop a big death cloud, AT will only make it harder.
The challenge is that dealthcloud requires 3 black mana. Playing nissa for a green and a blue, and then Hitting 3 black the next turn doesnt seem likely.
And maybe U still doesn't offer enough of a draw to try it out, but I figured I'd throw it out there since the thread hasn't seen any action in quite some time.
Still curious to see if anyone is playing any lists though - I'm currently on a list very similar to what mcnealstash was trying a couple pages back and I'm really enjoying it. The addition of Primeval Titan and Tireless Tracker gives the deck some angles of attack outside of just resolving a big Cloud.
As I said in my last post, the base of the list is from mcnealstash on the previous page. It differs in a few creatures and planeswalkers, namely Kalitas, Finks, Last Hope and Garruk.
I’m still in the early testing phases so I’m sure numbers will change, but I will say the Primeval Titan innovation mcnealstash proposed is incredibly powerful and by far my favorite part of the deck.
The only card I’m really unsure of at the moment is Garruk Wildspeaker. I’ve played Cloud decks before, so I understand his role pre and post Cloud, but most of the time I’m disappointed when I see him and he doesn’t have the impact I’m looking for, and I think mcnealstash was right to cut him. Any ideas of another creature or walker that could occupy the 4 mana slot? Maybe a full set of Kalitas is good in this meta? A rock deck recently went 5-0 with the same idea, and he has great synergy with Cloud.
Edit: Of course after I question Garruk, he's the lynchpin that held the deck together in a big win. I suppose another card I'm currently question is the inclusion of Finks again - I'm just not sure how well it's actually positioned in the meta, and would mainboard Scavenging Oozes be better? They're still a great threat to draw after Cloud, even though they don't survive like Finks. Thoughts?
4x Field of Ruin
4x Forest
4x Swamp
4x Overgrown Tomb
3x Verdant Catacombs
1x Woodland Cemetery
4x Treetop Village
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Instant (6)
4x Fatal Push
2x Abrupt Decay
4x Sakura-Tribe Elder
1x Courser of Kruphix
2x Kitchen Finks
3x Tireless Tracker
2x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
4x Primeval Titan
Sorcery (9)
4x Search for Tomorrow
2x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Death Cloud
Planeswalker (4)
2x Liliana, the Last Hope
2x Garruk Wildspeaker
2x Collective Brutality
1x Creeping Corrosion
1x Damnation
1x Drown in Sorrow
3x Duress
4x Ravenous Trap
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
4x Field of Ruin
4x Forest
4x Swamp
4x Overgrown Tomb
3x Verdant Catacombs
1x Woodland Cemetery
4x Treetop Village
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Instant (6)
4x Fatal Push
2x Abrupt Decay
4x Sakura-Tribe Elder
3x Scavenging Ooze
3x Tireless Tracker
3x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
4x Primeval Titan
Sorcery (10)
4x Search for Tomorrow
2x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Death Cloud
1x Damnation
Planeswalker (2)
2x Garruk Wildspeaker
3x Duress
3x Ravenous Trap
3x Kitchen Finks
2x Yahenni’s Expertise
2x Creeping Corrosion
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
Still very speculative, but here is my first list to try.
3 Assassin's Trophy
1 Batterskull
3 Dark Petition
2 Death Cloud
2 Explore
4 Farseek
4 Fatal Push
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Life from the Loam
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Phyrexian Arena
2 Thoughtseize
1 Worm Harvest
1 Forest
4 Barren Moor
3 Blooming Marsh
3 Field of Ruin
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Overgrown Tomb
2 Treetop Village
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Verdant Catacombs
15 No idea
I see you included 3 Assassin's Trophy in your maindeck when you were theory crafting - do you think its versatility outweighs its downside of ramping our opponent and making our Clouds slightly worse? I've been struggling to answer that question as I've been playtesting.
I think the answer might be that its worth playing, but we need to make sure we include enough support cards around it to make sure we still stay ahead, like Sakura-Tribe Elder, Search for Tomorrow, Courser of Kruphix, Nissa, Vastwood Seer, etc. So if you're all-in on 8+ ramp spells, we can negate the downside of it, but if you're on the more controlling build that runs half that, maybe it's not as good? Thoughts?
One, it answers anything. This deck is very reactive, and there will be things that slip through the cracks, so gifting a land is preferable to scooping to expensive or unexpected threats.
Two, there is such a thing as overloading on gifting lands. UW Control does this with Path to Exile + Field of Ruin. The average Modern deck runs around 3 basics, and if you have enough of these effects, by the mid to late game the opponent won't have anymore basics to get. This is actually a backdoor win-condition in my build with the Life from the Loam engine, especially if you find the Ghost Quarter.
And I agree that ramp is strong in the deck, I've just opted for spell-based ramp like Farseek to help fuel Dark Petition.
Here's the link to the stream: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/400775347
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
Creature (13)
3 Fulminator Mage
3 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Solemn Simulacrum
Sorcery (7)
3 Damnation
4 Death Cloud
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Guardian Idol
3 Mind Stone
Land (24)
3 Gemstone Caverns
4 Mutavault
15 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Fulminator Mage
1 Damnation
3 Collective Brutality
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Ratchet Bomb
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Mistvein Borderpost
4 Veinfire Borderpost
4 Death Cloud
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
Would be the base
Not sure how to rack up devotion in addition to the borderposts. Evil Presence is funny, but probably unplayable. Also kind of a non-bo with Death Cloud. Same goes for Contaminated Ground, but it's slower. Does make the opponent lose 3 from fetches though. I feel like neither are close to being playable.
Also, no idea how to win. Shrieking Affliction with Raven's Crime and the Borderposts is cute, but not good. Gutterbones? Obviously 4 copies of Liliana of the Veil would help.
I keep thinking about that shell though and how a very early Death Cloud with borderposts on the battlefield would really set the opponent back for pretty much any deck they are playing. Any thoughts on how this janky idea could be put to the test?
4x Field of Ruin
4x Forest
4x Swamp
4x Overgrown Tomb
4x Treetop Village
3x Verdant Catacombs
1x Twlight Mire
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Instant (6)
3x Fatal Push
3x Assassin’s Trophy
Creature (15)
4x Sakura-Tribe Elder
1x Courser of Kruphix
1x Nissa, Vastwood Seer
3x Tireless Tracker
2x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
3x Primeval Titan
1x Grave Titan
4x Search for Tomorrow
2x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Damnation
3x Death Cloud
Planeswalker (4)
3x Garruk Wildspeaker
1x Nissa, Vital Force
3x Duress
3x Fulminator Mage
2x Deathmark
1x Collective Brutality
1x Creeping Corrosion
1x Grafdigger’s Cage
1x Damping Sphere
1x Unravel the Aether
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Raking Canopy
I’ve played variants that are super heavy on Scooze and Kalitas, trying to have strong game against Phoenix and Dredge in game 1. I’ve also tested traditional builds that are heavy on Finks and Thragtusk, that are more all-In on resolving Cloud and leaving bodies behind afterwards.
Ultimately, I didn’t really like either of these. Scooze (surprisingly) underwhelmed me against a lot of the current meta, as did Finks and Thragtusk. I've always loved Scooze in traditional Rock decks and in Sultai, but it just doesn't feel as effective or impactful here. I went back to the Primeval Titan + Tireless Tracker build that focused on synergy with the ramp already built into the deck, and the list started to make sense again.
Curious to hear some thoughts on the build before my final week of testing and if anyone has any suggestions.
I think I would look to play a lot of creatures that disrupt the opponent and add devotion. Obviously, recursive creatures would help as you mentioned.
I don't think playing the borderposts equates into a quick and consistent deathcloud. Therefore, you should try to disrupt the opponent with discard and creatures while building devotion.
brain maggot
kitesail freebooter
gifted aetherborn
Mausoleum Secrets
This is an interesting idea. I'll keep thinking on it.
4 Arbor Elf
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Grave Titan
2 Jadelight Ranger
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Thragtusk
4 Tireless Tracker
Planeswalkers // 8
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Liliana, the Last Hope
Instant // 4
1 Fatal Push
3 Assassin's Trophy
3 Death Cloud
3 Maelstrom Pulse
Enchantment // 5
1 Bitterblossom
4 Utopia Sprawl
Lands // 22
2 Field of Ruin
7 Forest
3 Swamp
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
1 Collective Brutality
1 Damnation
2 Damping Sphere
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Extirpate
2 Fulminator Mage
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Murderous Cut
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Trinisphere
What do you think about this card ?
A bit slow probably, but totally in our gameplan !
2 Gemstone Caverns
4 Mutavault
14 Swamp
2 Bojuka Bog
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Artifacts:
2 Guardian Idol
4 Mind Stone
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
Creatures:
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Solemn Simulacrum
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
3 Fulminator Mage
Sorceries:
4 Death Cloud
4 Damnation
4 Collective Brutality
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Fulminator Mage
2 ratchet bomb
3 wrench mind
Last night at FNM I played the above decklist. The deck felt great, I went 3-1 beating 8-Whack, Elves and Nexus Reclamation and losing to BW Midrange. A few notes; The aggressive decks were great to play against when I pulled off a Death cloud or a Damnation. Ratchet Bomb didn't feel great, it's a really slow card. Wrench Mind is a terrible top deck, and this deck often falls into a top deck war. I'd like some suggestions on some good sideboard cards for top deck wars if any one has any? I was thinking Bloodghast could be a good inclusion, and as a way to get value from Liliana of the Veil and Death Cloud. I'm also thinking about good cards for playing against Whir/Prison and came up with Torment of Hailfire as a possible way to dome them or make them sacrifice their board. Although Solemn Simulacrum is a cool card, It's incredibly slow and only a 2 for 1 usually, considering it gets swept away with Damnation and Death Cloud. I'd almost rather Phyrexian Totem than Solemn Simulacrum. It leaves a 5/5 after a sweeper, rather than just netting one random card off the top. Even then, I don't know where I would make room for it. Thought-Knot Seer is a bit too much of a non-bo with Death Cloud, giving them a free card draw.
This is what I'm considering, going forward:
2 Gemstone Caverns
4 Mutavault
12 Swamp
4 Bojuka Bog
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Artifacts:
2 Guardian Idol
4 Mind Stone
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
Creatures:
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Bloodghast
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
3 Fulminator Mage
Sorceries:
3 Damnation
4 Death Cloud
4 Collective Brutality
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Fulminator Mage
1 Damnation
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Torment of Hailfire
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
Any suggestions for good sideboard cards I might be missing? I'd like some suggestions for grindy Black or Colorless cards. I've thought about Pack Rat as well as Gifted Aetherborn, Phyrexian Totem and even Torment of Scarabs.