What does this deck have that splinter twin and scapeshift does not?
I'd love for this kind of deck to exist, but at some point developing a deck in a vacuum against goldfish is not enough.
Are we faster? Do we play the control game better? Are we stronger against disruption? Is out plan B better?
Feel free to answer as if we had access to a perfectly tuned list because this is about what the deck could become and not that it is
I feel that the short answer is its just a different deck. It plays its cards and tries to win in in a way that's different. Why play UR Delver when Twin exists? Why play Zoo when Affinity exists? Why make Emerakul our win con when Tron does it better?
As people in this thread have mentioned, we could add Emerakul, Grapeshot, Gifts and so on, but whats the point? There are already decks in the format that use those cards better.
Edit: Also also, I think that the deck can be made to top deck well if you have already played a Dictate or Heartbeat. If the opponent isn't blue then giving them additional mana can only advance their board state so far. Playing dictates ahead of time and then taking advantage of additional untapped mana on later turns is something that this deck should be good at doing.
What does this deck have that splinter twin and scapeshift does not?
I'd love for this kind of deck to exist, but at some point developing a deck in a vacuum against goldfish is not enough.
Are we faster? Do we play the control game better? Are we stronger against disruption? Is out plan B better?
Feel free to answer as if we had access to a perfectly tuned list because this is about what the deck could become and not that it is
I feel that the short answer is its just a different deck. It plays its cards and tries to win in in a way that's different. Why play UR Delver when Twin exists? Why play Zoo when Affinity exists? Why make Emerakul our win con when Tron does it better?
As people in this thread have mentioned, we could add Emerakul, Grapeshot, Gifts and so on, but whats the point? There are already decks in the format that use those cards better.
Edit: Also also, I think that the deck can be made to top deck well if you have already played a Dictate or Heartbeat. If the opponent isn't blue then giving them additional mana can only advance their board state so far. Playing dictates ahead of time and then taking advantage of additional untapped mana on later turns is something that this deck should be good at doing.
I feel the same way, I know I can play other decks but I wanna play this deck because of how it plays. It wants to ramp hard into an end of turn Dictate and go off the next turn. It can be rewarding but it can also be blown out very easily especially if it runs out of gas.
I don't expect the deck to ever win a large event and its easy to disrupt but so are a lot of other decks in the format. Its like asking an Ad Nauseam player why he doesn't play Storm or why a Junk player doesn't play Angel Pod. Its because its a new deck and it can do fun things that other decks that might be similar cant do. I mean I tried making a Tron Tooth and Nail deck but when I threw tooth and nail in this brew it just felt right. Maybe it should be made into its own deck but the fact is that an end of turn Dictate can lead to some really crazy deck ideas and I want to explore them. I don't expect anything other than having fun and testing me skills as a deck builder. Plus if you ever meet a group of casual players and walk in with this deck it will just completely blow their minds.
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Ok, so sorry for being away for so long, but I have been busy and I have lots of free time now to work on the primer and the sort.
First things first I will be taking this deck out tomorrow for a Modern event as the first time it is brought out in paper (not on MODO or Cokatrice). I will post back with how I do. If anyone wants to add their opinions to my decklist for any changes that I should make then it is welcome and I will try to make appropriate changes. I think for this first time I will be playing the strictly GU deck that focuses on the Blue Sun's Zenith kill. Later events I may branch out into playing my own Epic Experiment version of the deck.
Yeah i'm giving up on this deck. Cool concept but it doesn't play out very well. At least nothing i came up with played well enough. It just didn't feel strong enough to compete with other combo decks, and not cool enough to pull me away from Ritual Gifts.
Good luck with brewing though.
Well I'm sad to hear that you are going to give up on it. Hopefully once I start posting some results I can sway you back. It is obviously not going to be a top tier deck right away, but over time hopefully it can be refined and eventually move up to Established at least. I mean Mono U Tron has done it so why can't we?
What does this deck have that splinter twin and scapeshift does not?
I'd love for this kind of deck to exist, but at some point developing a deck in a vacuum against goldfish is not enough.
Are we faster? Do we play the control game better? Are we stronger against disruption? Is out plan B better?
Feel free to answer as if we had access to a perfectly tuned list because this is about what the deck could become and not that it is
Honestly, this deck is good against the aggressive decks and anything not running Mana Leak/Remand. This deck isn't Tier 1 but that doesn't mean it isn't a good deck. I mean there are a ***** ton of glass cannon decks in the format but they still top 8 a daily.
I agree. It's the same way that Ad Nauseam can destroy any "fair" decks in the format. This is also the reason why they pack a bunch of discard spells etc... Your point is good, because it kind of illustrates a direction that we could take the deck in. If we Taylor it to be great vs Aggro/Midrange decks game 1, then we can have a sideboard geared towards making matchups 80-90% in our favor for game two against the control decks. If we can find some good balance to heighten mathups vs certain archtypes (speed for aggro/midranged and uncounterable redundancy for control) then the deck can probably start to get some big success. Of course if it was that easy then every deck in modern would be doing it!
Lastly I have been looking into some more cards that I would like opinions on:
There are some others but I'll finish posting some of them tomorrow when I can remember them. I will also want to discuss splashing black for more of a BUG shell, I think I have some cool ideas that might work.
Ok, so sorry for being away for so long, but I have been busy and I have lots of free time now to work on the primer and the sort.
First things first I will be taking this deck out tomorrow for a Modern event as the first time it is brought out in paper (not on MODO or Cokatrice). I will post back with how I do. If anyone wants to add their opinions to my decklist for any changes that I should make then it is welcome and I will try to make appropriate changes. I think for this first time I will be playing the strictly GU deck that focuses on the Blue Sun's Zenith kill. Later events I may branch out into playing my own Epic Experiment version of the deck.
Yeah i'm giving up on this deck. Cool concept but it doesn't play out very well. At least nothing i came up with played well enough. It just didn't feel strong enough to compete with other combo decks, and not cool enough to pull me away from Ritual Gifts.
Good luck with brewing though.
Well I'm sad to hear that you are going to give up on it. Hopefully once I start posting some results I can sway you back. It is obviously not going to be a top tier deck right away, but over time hopefully it can be refined and eventually move up to Established at least. I mean Mono U Tron has done it so why can't we?
What does this deck have that splinter twin and scapeshift does not?
I'd love for this kind of deck to exist, but at some point developing a deck in a vacuum against goldfish is not enough.
Are we faster? Do we play the control game better? Are we stronger against disruption? Is out plan B better?
Feel free to answer as if we had access to a perfectly tuned list because this is about what the deck could become and not that it is
Distant Memories is strictly worse than Concentrate if your opponent is not an idiot.
I finally own the whole deck on paper as well and in my opinion it runs better in person than on cockatrice testing. Ill post my list and explain why I have what I have. Actually, ill post both lists as I do have 2 versions of the deck and both are equally powerful. 1 is basically the High Tide version of the deck, wanting to make stupid amounts of mana and blue sun them out and the second is a more modern combo deck (similar to Pod/Twin/ect.)
High Tide/Omniscience
This is the current version im running in paper although im building both. This one is more of a glass cannon and similar to storm. It can burn out mid combo but it can survive against most decks. Ive found the only bad matchups for this deck are Zoo and Burn.
2 Time Reversal (I might go to 1 but right now its basically a reset button/draw 7)
2 Blue Sun's Zenith (Most of the times I blue sun myself to draw enough to get my Omniscience and win)
4 Serum Visions (Duh.)
4 Search for Tomorrow (Gotta love turn 1 Search's)
4 Telling Time (My favorite cantrip in the deck, digging for 3 and setting up a draw is huge)
4 Merchant Scroll (IMO, most important card in the list. Can tutor for a win con, draw spell, counterspell.)
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder (The reason we stand a chance against most aggro decks.)
4 Misty Rainforest (Honestly I feel the game cant be won without these.)
8 Forest (Duh.)
6 Island (OP.)
4 Early Harvest (Woooooo engine)
1 Urban Evolution (Might cut but its usually a draw 3/get a land out of my hand)
4 Heartbeat of Spring (I feel these are needed, doing something like Omniscience, Blue Sun, play 8 enchantments = auto win)
3 Remand (I might go to 4 but this spell is mostly a time walk for us. One of the most important spells.)
4 Dictate of Karametra (You NEED this to win. Might add Mystical Teachings but so far I don't have a problem drawing it)
1 Omniscience (Sure its a win more card but this basically ensure's your victory if it wasn't already. Makes it easier to play.)
1 Enter the Infinite (Might cut it but right now its a way to get our win once the Omniscience lands or I need an Early Harvest)
SB: 4 Bound // Determined (Best card in the sideboard, against UWR this is magical.)
SB: 4 Vapor Snag (Unsummon works too, but basically just wanna stall and this helps.)
SB: 1 Snapcaster Mage (I have only found myself siding this in with the Snags but against Zoo and Jund)
SB: 1 Dispel (Against burn and "draw go decks")
SB: 4 Gatecreeper Vine (Also against Zoo/D&T)
SB: 1 Solemn Simulacrum (Against Control. Sure its a 2/2 but its ramp and a draw spell. Its nuts against D&T/Zoo/Jund/Control)
Here is my newest brew using the Dictate of Karametra as the base engine. Basically instead of winning with B-Sun we want to resolve a Tooth and Nail. If it resolves, we win.
4 Birds of Paradise (Turn 1, often takes a bolt but if it sticks it propels us in turn 2/3)
4 Explore (Draw is important, ramp is important, perfect.)
2 Urban Evolution (Drawing 3 when we have dirt in hand is great but high cost sucks, might cut.)
3 Harmonize
4 Tooth and Nail (Wooooooo win cons)
4 Wall of Roots (Ramp/protection)
4 Dictate of Karametra (Engine)
1 Heartbeat of Spring (Secondary Engine)
13 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Breeding Pool
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria (Combo #2)
1 Painter's Servant (combo #2)
4 Search for Tomorrow
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder (Ramp/protection)
1 Helix Pinnacle (Win con #3)
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker (Combo #1)
1 Restoration Angel (Combo #1)
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I finally own the whole deck on paper as well and in my opinion it runs better in person than on cockatrice testing. Ill post my list and explain why I have what I have. Actually, ill post both lists as I do have 2 versions of the deck and both are equally powerful. 1 is basically the High Tide version of the deck, wanting to make stupid amounts of mana and blue sun them out and the second is a more modern combo deck (similar to Pod/Twin/ect.)
High Tide/Omniscience
This is the current version im running in paper although im building both. This one is more of a glass cannon and similar to storm. It can burn out mid combo but it can survive against most decks. Ive found the only bad matchups for this deck are Zoo and Burn.
2 Time Reversal (I might go to 1 but right now its basically a reset button/draw 7)
2 Blue Sun's Zenith (Most of the times I blue sun myself to draw enough to get my Omniscience and win)
4 Serum Visions (Duh.)
4 Search for Tomorrow (Gotta love turn 1 Search's)
4 Telling Time (My favorite cantrip in the deck, digging for 3 and setting up a draw is huge)
4 Merchant Scroll (IMO, most important card in the list. Can tutor for a win con, draw spell, counterspell.)
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder (The reason we stand a chance against most aggro decks.)
4 Misty Rainforest (Honestly I feel the game cant be won without these.)
8 Forest (Duh.)
6 Island (OP.)
4 Early Harvest (Woooooo engine)
1 Urban Evolution (Might cut but its usually a draw 3/get a land out of my hand)
4 Heartbeat of Spring (I feel these are needed, doing something like Omniscience, Blue Sun, play 8 enchantments = auto win)
3 Remand (I might go to 4 but this spell is mostly a time walk for us. One of the most important spells.)
4 Dictate of Karametra (You NEED this to win. Might add Mystical Teachings but so far I don't have a problem drawing it)
1 Omniscience (Sure its a win more card but this basically ensure's your victory if it wasn't already. Makes it easier to play.)
1 Enter the Infinite (Might cut it but right now its a way to get our win once the Omniscience lands or I need an Early Harvest)
SB: 4 Bound // Determined (Best card in the sideboard, against UWR this is magical.)
SB: 4 Vapor Snag (Unsummon works too, but basically just wanna stall and this helps.)
SB: 1 Snapcaster Mage (I have only found myself siding this in with the Snags but against Zoo and Jund)
SB: 1 Dispel (Against burn and "draw go decks")
SB: 4 Gatecreeper Vine (Also against Zoo/D&T)
SB: 1 Solemn Simulacrum (Against Control. Sure its a 2/2 but its ramp and a draw spell. Its nuts against D&T/Zoo/Jund/Control)
Here is my newest brew using the Dictate of Karametra as the base engine. Basically instead of winning with B-Sun we want to resolve a Tooth and Nail. If it resolves, we win.
4 Birds of Paradise (Turn 1, often takes a bolt but if it sticks it propels us in turn 2/3)
4 Explore (Draw is important, ramp is important, perfect.)
2 Urban Evolution (Drawing 3 when we have dirt in hand is great but high cost sucks, might cut.)
3 Harmonize
4 Tooth and Nail (Wooooooo win cons)
4 Wall of Roots (Ramp/protection)
4 Dictate of Karametra (Engine)
1 Heartbeat of Spring (Secondary Engine)
13 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Breeding Pool
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria (Combo #2)
1 Painter's Servant (combo #2)
4 Search for Tomorrow
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder (Ramp/protection)
1 Helix Pinnacle (Win con #3)
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker (Combo #1)
1 Restoration Angel (Combo #1)
First, please use decks tags RDS. Second, spending 9 spots on win-cons in the second list and turning on their removal with Birds of Paradise seems pretty bad. Is there any reason why running 9 win-cons and tutors for them at the cost of not running cards like Serum Visions worth it? I'd cut your current win-cons for Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, and Xenagos, God of Revels.
9 Spots? Well Tooth and Nail is the combo card. That's like saying Twin wastes 12 cards on a combo (Pestermites, Deceivers, Twin, Kiki). You only need 1 copy of Tooth and Nail and once it resolves you win. There is just a plan B to the deck if I cant properly win with Kiki/Angel. As for Emrakul/Xenagos, while that is cool and powerful, I think its about preference about what win won you run in the deck. If someone likes a certain creature combo they can run it in this shell. And Helix Pinnacle isn't the best but as a 1 of its nice. Ill explain its reason for being here, should my opponent stop me from getting Kiki/Angel win, then I just Painter/Iona and wait to draw the Helix. Then, since they cant ever cast anything, I just wait them out or hope they concede.
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9 Spots? Well Tooth and Nail is the combo card. That's like saying Twin wastes 12 cards on a combo (Pestermites, Deceivers, Twin, Kiki). You only need 1 copy of Tooth and Nail and once it resolves you win. There is just a plan B to the deck if I cant properly win with Kiki/Angel. As for Emrakul/Xenagos, while that is cool and powerful, I think its about preference about what win won you run in the deck. If someone likes a certain creature combo they can run it in this shell. And Helix Pinnacle isn't the best but as a 1 of its nice. Ill explain its reason for being here, should my opponent stop me from getting Kiki/Angel win, then I just Painter/Iona and wait to draw the Helix. Then, since they cant ever cast anything, I just wait them out or hope they concede.
Shouldn't you just be able to win by attacking with Iona if you have her in play and your opponent can't remove her?
I finally own the whole deck on paper as well and in my opinion it runs better in person than on cockatrice testing. Ill post my list and explain why I have what I have. Actually, ill post both lists as I do have 2 versions of the deck and both are equally powerful. 1 is basically the High Tide version of the deck, wanting to make stupid amounts of mana and blue sun them out and the second is a more modern combo deck (similar to Pod/Twin/ect.)
High Tide/Omniscience
This is the current version im running in paper although im building both. This one is more of a glass cannon and similar to storm. It can burn out mid combo but it can survive against most decks. Ive found the only bad matchups for this deck are Zoo and Burn.
2 Time Reversal (I might go to 1 but right now its basically a reset button/draw 7)
2 Blue Sun's Zenith (Most of the times I blue sun myself to draw enough to get my Omniscience and win)
4 Serum Visions (Duh.)
4 Search for Tomorrow (Gotta love turn 1 Search's)
4 Telling Time (My favorite cantrip in the deck, digging for 3 and setting up a draw is huge)
4 Merchant Scroll (IMO, most important card in the list. Can tutor for a win con, draw spell, counterspell.)
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder (The reason we stand a chance against most aggro decks.)
4 Misty Rainforest (Honestly I feel the game cant be won without these.)
8 Forest (Duh.)
6 Island (OP.)
4 Early Harvest (Woooooo engine)
1 Urban Evolution (Might cut but its usually a draw 3/get a land out of my hand)
4 Heartbeat of Spring (I feel these are needed, doing something like Omniscience, Blue Sun, play 8 enchantments = auto win)
3 Remand (I might go to 4 but this spell is mostly a time walk for us. One of the most important spells.)
4 Dictate of Karametra (You NEED this to win. Might add Mystical Teachings but so far I don't have a problem drawing it)
1 Omniscience (Sure its a win more card but this basically ensure's your victory if it wasn't already. Makes it easier to play.)
1 Enter the Infinite (Might cut it but right now its a way to get our win once the Omniscience lands or I need an Early Harvest)
SB: 4 Bound // Determined (Best card in the sideboard, against UWR this is magical.)
SB: 4 Vapor Snag (Unsummon works too, but basically just wanna stall and this helps.)
SB: 1 Snapcaster Mage (I have only found myself siding this in with the Snags but against Zoo and Jund)
SB: 1 Dispel (Against burn and "draw go decks")
SB: 4 Gatecreeper Vine (Also against Zoo/D&T)
SB: 1 Solemn Simulacrum (Against Control. Sure its a 2/2 but its ramp and a draw spell. Its nuts against D&T/Zoo/Jund/Control)
Here is my newest brew using the Dictate of Karametra as the base engine. Basically instead of winning with B-Sun we want to resolve a Tooth and Nail. If it resolves, we win.
4 Birds of Paradise (Turn 1, often takes a bolt but if it sticks it propels us in turn 2/3)
4 Explore (Draw is important, ramp is important, perfect.)
2 Urban Evolution (Drawing 3 when we have dirt in hand is great but high cost sucks, might cut.)
3 Harmonize
4 Tooth and Nail (Wooooooo win cons)
4 Wall of Roots (Ramp/protection)
4 Dictate of Karametra (Engine)
1 Heartbeat of Spring (Secondary Engine)
13 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Breeding Pool
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria (Combo #2)
1 Painter's Servant (combo #2)
4 Search for Tomorrow
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder (Ramp/protection)
1 Helix Pinnacle (Win con #3)
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker (Combo #1)
1 Restoration Angel (Combo #1)
Anyways, my thoughts for deck 1 are along the lines of:
- We have moved away from Merchant Scroll and onto Mystical Teachings. It hits every card in our deck except for sorceries and Steve, it is worth the 2 extra mana. I am currently happy with my 3/1 split.
- Why run Heartbeat of Spring if you are running Dictate of Karametra? I think the best option for hope that this deck has is delaying until 5 mana and then casting it EOT. Once we can find a reliable way to hit 5 mana then we will start to be a more credible deck.
- I personally don't like Omniscience and Enter the Infinite. I am under the impression that all you need in the deck is the most essential cards used in the combo. If you are not running these then it starts to weaken your draws and gives you potential to miss a good scry, or topdeck something bad. Every card you replace with a win-more card that "ensures" victory is just replacing a card that both adds to the combo while also having some value outside of it. That is my idea of how the deck should run. Combo when it needs to, disrupt with the same cards when it needs too.
- I like the Solemn Simulacrum in the board. I feel like we can take some ideas from Mono U Tron and get away with playing things like Condescend, maybe Solemn Simulacrum, and maybe even Thirst for Knowledge as great card advantage if we can squeeze in some artifacts somehow.
As for your second deck I don't entirely agree with this:
9 Spots? Well Tooth and Nail is the combo card. That's like saying Twin wastes 12 cards on a combo (Pestermites, Deceivers, Twin, Kiki). You only need 1 copy of Tooth and Nail and once it resolves you win. There is just a plan B to the deck if I cant properly win with Kiki/Angel. As for Emrakul/Xenagos, while that is cool and powerful, I think its about preference about what win won you run in the deck. If someone likes a certain creature combo they can run it in this shell. And Helix Pinnacle isn't the best but as a 1 of its nice. Ill explain its reason for being here, should my opponent stop me from getting Kiki/Angel win, then I just Painter/Iona and wait to draw the Helix. Then, since they cant ever cast anything, I just wait them out or hope they concede.
I think if you are going to be running Tooth & Nail then you should stick to threats that you can cast without drawing a T&N. Chances are if you could cast T&N then you can also cast Emrakul. You will be seeing enough cards (and your second list has no card manipulation) so chances are that you will draw ~2 of these win condition cards that you have. This makes for a lot of dead draws, and I think having them in your deck and always tutoring is better so they are safe from discard and the likes. In my opinion Emrakul is all you really ever need because he can be cast on his own and doubles as a way to reuse our graveyard.
On a side note I am excited to say that went 3-1 when playing the deck in paper. I learned a lot from it and will post a hopefully in-depth writeup of it sometime in the next week once I'm finished it.
Well the best way I can defend the Heartbeat is once I drop a Dictate, that's nice and all but I want my lands to make more mana. I usually end up Blue Sun'ing myself to draw enough fuel to continue to go off. 4 of each enchantment makes my lands produce stupid amounts of mana and with a resolved Omniscience it lets me drop all 8 and I only need 1 Early Harvest and my Blue Sun to win.
Omniscience looks like a win more card but whenever I play it ends up helping a lot. It speeds the game up in that I don't have to keep track of all my mana after each spell and it lets me just speed through to my win. (Most people have complained that I take to long and either concede or leave). Enter the Infinite is basically another Blue Sun for us so I might cut it, but there are times when I have so much mana and not enough to win or not enough fuel to get my win so it can get my out of a tight spot. Which is why I have them both as a 1 of.
Solemn Simulacrum I threw into the side mainly for fair decks with lots removal and creatures. Its ramp, a blocker or removal dumby, and card draw. But its 4 mana and at 4 mana I think id rather have something else so im keeping him to a single.
The Tooth and Nail deck was just a pet deck idea I saw after I realized how much mana I could produce on turn 5 after a resolved Dictate. I realized if I had 5 lands to play Dicate id have enough mana for an entwined T&N and I felt like brewing.
Also, for the deck as a whole, ive found my best matchups are Pod, Twin, and UWR, which are all huge in the meta and at my lgs. So I think im going to stick with the deck for awhile.
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Deck featured for July. This is exactly the sort of interesting deck, thoughtful primer, and active discussion that we want to see featured in Creation. Keep up the great brewing!
Deck featured for July. This is exactly the sort of interesting deck, thoughtful primer, and active discussion that we want to see featured in Creation. Keep up the great brewing!
This is awesome news! Thanks so much for recognizing the thread, and hopefully through this we can get some more people taking it out to their FNM's this month to try and spread the word about the deck!
Now for the tournament report from last Wednesday where I managed to snag an amazing 3-1 record! I went into the night playing this deck which had a couple changes from the list I posted a couple days back:
Round 1 vs UWR Control: This was a matchup that I thought would be a bit worse because of their countermagic. Game 1 he had no idea what I was doing. I'm pretty sure he thought it was Scapeshift without red or something because the only cards I showed were Serum Visions and Sakura-Tribe Elder. I hit 5 mana on turn 4, passed, he passed back to me and I flashed in a Dictate of Karametra without it getting countered. I had an Early Harvest in my hand and a Mystical Teachings, fetched up a Blue Sun's Zenith and then went off. I boarded in the counterspells and Venser, and took out the Time Reversals and Merchant Scroll
Game 2 was much of the same. He tried to counter my ramp this time, but I my turn 1 Search for Tomorrow got me an extra land, I also drew another one and cast it on turn 3. I expected a Counterflux this time, so I waited for 7 mana, then when I flashed in the Dictate on his endstep. As I thought he tried to counter it with a Counterflux, so I Remanded my own Dictate. I drew a Swan Song off of it, and on the next turn tried again and resolved the Dictate after countering his Cryptic Command. I just went off after that.
2-0 in games and 1-0 in matches.
Round 2 vs Burn: I was ecstatic when I started to get pelted with Lightning Bolts because I had four copies of Leyline of Sanctity in my sideboard. I figured that burn would be such a bad matchup that it warranted playing them for now. I lost game 1 as was expected, but it went better than I thought because I was on 4 mana and 1 turn from resolving the dictate.
Game 2 I mulled to 6 and didn't have a Leyline in either but I had a half decent hand, so I kept it. I played a turn 1 Search for Tomorrow and got the Plains that I sided in, then found the Leyline after about 7 cards worth of scrying effects. I was on a terrifying 3 life when I dropped the Dictate and then casted the Leyline. He had nothing on his next turn to finish me off, and I was able to search up a Blue Sun's Zenith and go off.
Game 3 I got a Leyline in my opener. After about 3 turns of him drawing nothing to do he just conceded.
4-1 in games and 2-0 in matches.
Round 3 vs Jund: This was a terrible matchup for us. Without a way to kill their Bob's he had wayyy too much card advantage and draw far too much discard for me to deal with. He ripped apart my hand and had a pretty good idea of what to take from watching me in the other rounds.
Round 4 vs Melira Pod: This was a pretty fun matchup because we are both toolbox and combo decks. The game came down to who could combo out first because I really didn't care for whatever he played. I got my combo down first in game 1 after he played a Birds, a Voice of Resurgence, and something else like a Ranger. He really didn't contest me at all which I liked, and he somehow never played a Pod. I boarded in the Dismembers and the Squelch.
Game 2 I got hit with some Thoughtseizes and a Chord of Calling getting a Harmonic Sliver. It didn't last too long after that. I tried to go off at instant speed to negate the Sliver but I couldn't get there.
Game 3 I had a turn 1 Search for Tomorrow and I Remanded his turn 3 Pod. He naturally played a Melira and a Viscera Seer. Then when I cast my turn 5 Dictate (with 1 mana up for Swan Song to stop the chord this time) he Chorded for a Redcap to go for the kill. I was able to counter it with the Swan Song and then combo off for the win. Honestly in this game I think he should have known that I would have held up a counterspell so I didn't loose to a Chord again, but his misplay, whatever.
Overall I think the night was a huge blast to play. I did way better than my expectations for the deck when taking it out for the first time. I had the entire store gathered around the table watching by the end of the night and some of them were interested in the list. I did refer them to the primer too so hopefully we can get some more people working on the deck. It is definitely something that you can take out to your FNM and compete with other decks, and even the "Tier 1" decks. It does have a big surprise factor right now which I think is good for it. It is super cheap to make too, so it shouldn't be hard for more people to start picking it up and playing it on the odd week and getting some good results in.
After looking at your updated list ive remade my list. I like the feedback you gave and the idea for a toolbox similar to the actual High Tide decks have. But I do have a question before I put my new list up. Are the Snapcasters a good idea? Wouldn't it mess with Time Reversal especially if you Snap an Early Harvest? Also could you elaborate on why you want to take out Time Reversals?
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After looking at your updated list ive remade my list. I like the feedback you gave and the idea for a toolbox similar to the actual High Tide decks have. But I do have a question before I put my new list up. Are the Snapcasters a good idea? Wouldn't it mess with Time Reversal especially if you Snap an Early Harvest? Also could you elaborate on why you want to take out Time Reversals?
For sure. There are some situations that I think there is no better card than Time Reversal. It is a draw 7 for 5 mana, which has no other competition for that cmc in Modern. The next best thing is Opportunity which is a draw 4 for 6 mana. I have found Time Reversal to be the only card that can save me when I am a bit short on mana, like when I only have one land untapping spell after resolving a dictate because BSZ can only draw maybe ~6-10 cards at this point instead of 20+ and have 10 mana left over like you can with two land untapping spells.
however...
I have been really really liking Snapcaster Mage recently as a way to double the value on any single instant/sorcery we have access to (in the graveyard) as it gives us more options for any given situation. The cards that I played 1-of in my last list are all very situational and they are only ever tutored for, I never hope to draw them. The 4-ofs are cards that I will see once per game, and usually have at least 1 of in my yard by the time I resolve a Dictate. This means that I can have copies of these spells whenever I need to, and can scry additional copies to the bottom of my library by using Serum Visions and Telling Time. By doing this I then remove redundant copies (because I have access to them in the yard) and can look for more important things (mainly Early Harvest and Dictates).
Another thing that I found is that you only ever need 2 land untapping spells to win (90% of the time). This means that Snapcaster acts as Early Harvests 5-7 and allows us to instantly generate enough mana to win.
The reason for the switch is that I never actually casted a single Time Reversal at FNM. Every time I had it in hand with a Snapcaster Mage when going off, I was able to flashback the Early Harvest or Reality Spasm in my yard and win with only that, compared to taking a gamble and drawing 7 cards with the risk of not getting something specific I need. Basically it boils down to consistency and knowing what you are getting. Both cards get you to the end result, but Snapcaster gets you there in 3 steps compared to Time Reversal getting you there in 6. Kinda understand that reasoning?
The last thing is that I want to up the number of counterspells maindeck to around 8, and this means that Snapcaster will act as counterspells 9-11. With a Swan Song (which I am liking very much) it's only 3 mana for a hard counter and a body which is pretty good.
I think that keeping 1 Time Reversal may be the right call, but it will require more testing and right now I'm leaning towards cutting them.
tl;dr: Snapcaster Mage is much more versatile, and creates much more consistent routes of play than Time Reversal by protecting our combo when we need it, and helping us combo when we need it. Time Reversal can only help us combo, and has the chance to put us in a dead end mid combo.
That makes a lot of sense. In my list I did end up cutting down to 1 so I could have an extra copy of Swan Song (which is the best counterspell in the deck imo). And after I resolve a draw spell like a Blue Sun, any copy of Time Reversal is basically dead in my hand. But having 1 copy can act as an emergency reset button which was helped me more than it has harmed me. But there had been times where the 7 I draw are all ramp spells or nothing that can help continue the combo and I burn out with 70 mana in the pool.
I know your list works with just the 4 Dictate but in my list ive been running those plus the 4 Heartbeat of Spring. Mid combo I find I have enough mana to cast them. And most games I have played I end up getting 4-6 of them on the field on the turn I go off. It helps me a lot but I can still go off with only the Dictates. But this usually ensures that ill have plenty of mana.
1 hard choice ive had is do I want to run Snapback or Cyclonic Rift or Unsummon in the sideboard against aggressive decks. Because as of right now most of my meta is aggressive zoo, delver, pod and uwr variants. Each has their ups and downs so im thinking ill do a cut of something like 2/1/1 or 1/1/1. Ive found Snapbacks often get rid of my extra Merchant Scrolls or counterspells against non-interactive decks. Rift is ok but I have only ever overloaded when I had enough mana on the turn I was going off and I was burning out. But it can also hit Leyline/Witchbane Orb. Unsummon is just the cheapest temporary removal I know of in these colors. And Vapor Snag's 1 damage doesn't matter at all.
And for the mainboard im running 1 Swan Song, 1 Bound//Determined and 3 Remands for counterspells. How important were each of those in your testing? I like Remands for buying time because sometimes its a Time Walk but other times they are dead in hand and I end up Remanding my own Serum Visions just to cycle it away.
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After re-reading the primer and looking at all the different cards ive run in the deck I think im going to go with a more "pure combo" version. Your version is a lot like Legacy High Tide with a tool box (which is resilient and can answer most problems the deck faces) but I also think the deck reminds me of Eggs from pre-RTR modern. Early Harvest is a lot like Second Sunrise and the blue spells are like the eggs. So I feel like there could be 2 versions of the deck, or even some combination of the two, 1 being your version which is more like a control/combo deck and I have my brew which is almost entirely dedicated to the combo with no toolbox and its only concern is combo'ing off and not caring what the opponent plays. Here is the list ive finally decided on. I already own the deck aside from 1 Omniscience which im picking up tomorrow.
That makes a lot of sense. In my list I did end up cutting down to 1 so I could have an extra copy of Swan Song (which is the best counterspell in the deck imo). And after I resolve a draw spell like a Blue Sun, any copy of Time Reversal is basically dead in my hand. But having 1 copy can act as an emergency reset button which was helped me more than it has harmed me. But there had been times where the 7 I draw are all ramp spells or nothing that can help continue the combo and I burn out with 70 mana in the pool.
I agree that Time Reversal is a real gamble. It is probably the funnest card in the deck because of what it does, but at the same time it hurts the consistency of the deck a bit. I would be comfortable saying that it is about a 1-in-20 chance that you actually need to cast the Time Reversal over a Snapcaster, so it isn't a key piece in the deck but it does serve a purpose. I think it will be a good thing to focus on in the next week or so to see if it really deserves a spot in the deck.
I know your list works with just the 4 Dictate but in my list ive been running those plus the 4 Heartbeat of Spring. Mid combo I find I have enough mana to cast them. And most games I have played I end up getting 4-6 of them on the field on the turn I go off. It helps me a lot but I can still go off with only the Dictates. But this usually ensures that ill have plenty of mana.
My reasoning is that I want to keep the number of combo cards to a minimum to leave room for more counterspells and utility cards. This is the same reason that Twin decks only run 4-6 creatures to combo with. If they ran Deceiver Exarch, Pestermite, Village Bellringer, and Sky Hussar then they would have no room for the Lightning Bolts and Serum Visions. This is the same reason that we want to have a low number of mana doubling effects. If we can use our Scrying effects and cantrips to get them, then we can make better choices on our cards and sculpt our hands as we play. It also leads to better decision making if you want to go for the tempo/control route or the fast combo and ramp route. I hope that you can see my reasoning for this, but if you don't want to change from the Dictates then that's fine. I wouldn't even say a 4/2 split would be bad, but 4/4 may be a bit much.
1 hard choice ive had is do I want to run Snapback or Cyclonic Rift or Unsummon in the sideboard against aggressive decks. Because as of right now most of my meta is aggressive zoo, delver, pod and uwr variants. Each has their ups and downs so im thinking ill do a cut of something like 2/1/1 or 1/1/1. Ive found Snapbacks often get rid of my extra Merchant Scrolls or counterspells against non-interactive decks. Rift is ok but I have only ever overloaded when I had enough mana on the turn I was going off and I was burning out. But it can also hit Leyline/Witchbane Orb. Unsummon is just the cheapest temporary removal I know of in these colors. And Vapor Snag's 1 damage doesn't matter at all.
Right now I don't really know what to tell you for the best option. I didn't expect much aggro when I played so I didn't have many of these in my sideboard. I would also suggest Repeal as it cantrips and is still a sorta low cost. If I had to say what is the best in a vaccuume though, then I would go with Cyclonic Rift.
And for the mainboard im running 1 Swan Song, 1 Bound//Determined and 3 Remands for counterspells. How important were each of those in your testing? I like Remands for buying time because sometimes its a Time Walk but other times they are dead in hand and I end up Remanding my own Serum Visions just to cycle it away.
I think Remand is the best counter in the deck, and Swan Song is the most crucial for protecting the combo. Remand has more applications and interactions than I can list, but one key one is to remand your spell vs a Counterflux and have theirs fizzle. They will be down a counter and you can try to combo off again next turn. You can also cantrip with it like you said which is useful when you have 50+ mana and want to dig a bit.
I like Swan Song because it we can be at 6 mana and have a protected Dictate. It hits more things than Dispel which is why it gets the spot in the deck. I think it is very good and maybe even worth doing a 3/1 split with Cryptic Command sometime in future testings. The only problem is it is dead vs Aggro and we will be drawing dead cards vs them. This causes us to die extra fast which I haven't exactly figured out how to fix yet!
Lastly Determined is a good way to stop the opponents disruption. I like it vs any blue deck, but I am still on the fence on whether it is better than just having 2 counters in hand. Is it really any different than having 2 counters or 1 Bound and 1 counter? You are going to be playing 2 cards in a counter war anyway, so why not have a more versatile card and play reactive rather than force a counter war if you get what I'm saying. On a side note Silence does pretty much the same thing without the cantrip, but is a mana less which is important because the applications of these cards come in pre-dictate. This means the difference between 6 and 7 mana which is pretty big.
I just wanted to say thanks too for sticking with brewing the deck! I really like your input and want more people like you in here commenting!
Deck featured for July. This is exactly the sort of interesting deck, thoughtful primer, and active discussion that we want to see featured in Creation. Keep up the great brewing!
This is awesome news! Thanks so much for recognizing the thread, and hopefully through this we can get some more people taking it out to their FNM's this month to try and spread the word about the deck!
Now for the tournament report from last Wednesday where I managed to snag an amazing 3-1 record! I went into the night playing this deck which had a couple changes from the list I posted a couple days back:
Round 1 vs UWR Control: This was a matchup that I thought would be a bit worse because of their countermagic. Game 1 he had no idea what I was doing. I'm pretty sure he thought it was Scapeshift without red or something because the only cards I showed were Serum Visions and Sakura-Tribe Elder. I hit 5 mana on turn 4, passed, he passed back to me and I flashed in a Dictate of Karametra without it getting countered. I had an Early Harvest in my hand and a Mystical Teachings, fetched up a Blue Sun's Zenith and then went off. I boarded in the counterspells and Venser, and took out the Time Reversals and Merchant Scroll
Game 2 was much of the same. He tried to counter my ramp this time, but I my turn 1 Search for Tomorrow got me an extra land, I also drew another one and cast it on turn 3. I expected a Counterflux this time, so I waited for 7 mana, then when I flashed in the Dictate on his endstep. As I thought he tried to counter it with a Counterflux, so I Remanded my own Dictate. I drew a Swan Song off of it, and on the next turn tried again and resolved the Dictate after countering his Cryptic Command. I just went off after that.
2-0 in games and 1-0 in matches.
Round 2 vs Burn: I was ecstatic when I started to get pelted with Lightning Bolts because I had four copies of Leyline of Sanctity in my sideboard. I figured that burn would be such a bad matchup that it warranted playing them for now. I lost game 1 as was expected, but it went better than I thought because I was on 4 mana and 1 turn from resolving the dictate.
Game 2 I mulled to 6 and didn't have a Leyline in either but I had a half decent hand, so I kept it. I played a turn 1 Search for Tomorrow and got the Plains that I sided in, then found the Leyline after about 7 cards worth of scrying effects. I was on a terrifying 3 life when I dropped the Dictate and then casted the Leyline. He had nothing on his next turn to finish me off, and I was able to search up a Blue Sun's Zenith and go off.
Game 3 I got a Leyline in my opener. After about 3 turns of him drawing nothing to do he just conceded.
4-1 in games and 2-0 in matches.
Round 3 vs Jund: This was a terrible matchup for us. Without a way to kill their Bob's he had wayyy too much card advantage and draw far too much discard for me to deal with. He ripped apart my hand and had a pretty good idea of what to take from watching me in the other rounds.
Round 4 vs Melira Pod: This was a pretty fun matchup because we are both toolbox and combo decks. The game came down to who could combo out first because I really didn't care for whatever he played. I got my combo down first in game 1 after he played a Birds, a Voice of Resurgence, and something else like a Ranger. He really didn't contest me at all which I liked, and he somehow never played a Pod. I boarded in the Dismembers and the Squelch.
Game 2 I got hit with some Thoughtseizes and a Chord of Calling getting a Harmonic Sliver. It didn't last too long after that. I tried to go off at instant speed to negate the Sliver but I couldn't get there.
Game 3 I had a turn 1 Search for Tomorrow and I Remanded his turn 3 Pod. He naturally played a Melira and a Viscera Seer. Then when I cast my turn 5 Dictate (with 1 mana up for Swan Song to stop the chord this time) he Chorded for a Redcap to go for the kill. I was able to counter it with the Swan Song and then combo off for the win. Honestly in this game I think he should have known that I would have held up a counterspell so I didn't loose to a Chord again, but his misplay, whatever.
Overall I think the night was a huge blast to play. I did way better than my expectations for the deck when taking it out for the first time. I had the entire store gathered around the table watching by the end of the night and some of them were interested in the list. I did refer them to the primer too so hopefully we can get some more people working on the deck. It is definitely something that you can take out to your FNM and compete with other decks, and even the "Tier 1" decks. It does have a big surprise factor right now which I think is good for it. It is super cheap to make too, so it shouldn't be hard for more people to start picking it up and playing it on the odd week and getting some good results in.
Looking forward for other reports in the future!
Contrats on both the featuring of this primer, and for getting the deck out to an actual event (and doing well none the less)!
I really like that you tried to make room for a few more counters in the main board, and I feel that you are on the right track with swansong.
When you won, how much mana were you making in each game to cast blue sun's zenith?
In the game vs. Jund, did you bring in the leylines for game 2? I feel that any deck that is trying to make us discard should have leylines brought in. Also Trying to throw in the copies of terminus wouldn't be a bad idea too, but at that point you have swapped 7 cards which might be difficult to win through. Thoughts?
Thinking about gifts, what would you cast it to get? If you want a Dictate won't they just put the dictate & heartbeat into the graveyard each time?
As for commenting on the surgical extractions, I don't know if enough people play them to bother building in a backup plan in the case were our BSZ gets exiled. However I did consider throwing one R&D into the sideboard, along with a second BSZ, so you can fetch it out if you need it. I don't think you want R&D in the main deck since it doesn't do anything at all on its own, at least bound draws you a card, but I do think there is a point for having it if say, you want to try out playing a few glittering wishes. Wish for R&D, then R&D your second copy of BSZ and keep going from there. Yes it takes a lot of cards to do, but it means that our deck gets even better at breaking out of losing board states.
I've looked into getting this deck online since I'm not usually around for when our local store plays modern, but I don't want to have to shell out for snapcasters & misty again. The rest of the deck is dirt cheap though.
After re-reading the primer and looking at all the different cards ive run in the deck I think im going to go with a more "pure combo" version. Your version is a lot like Legacy High Tide with a tool box (which is resilient and can answer most problems the deck faces) but I also think the deck reminds me of Eggs from pre-RTR modern. Early Harvest is a lot like Second Sunrise and the blue spells are like the eggs. So I feel like there could be 2 versions of the deck, or even some combination of the two, 1 being your version which is more like a control/combo deck and I have my brew which is almost entirely dedicated to the combo with no toolbox and its only concern is combo'ing off and not caring what the opponent plays. Here is the list ive finally decided on. I already own the deck aside from 1 Omniscience which im picking up tomorrow.
Awesome. I was typing up my last post when you posted this so I missed replying to it, sorry. Anyway, I feel like this will be the same things as Pure Combo Twin and Tempo Twin. They both win, but just have different routes for how it goes about doing it. Are you going to take it to some FNM's and tell us how it preforms? Even just practice games would help out a lot.
And by using that analogy, I guess the next step for the deck will be jamming some Tarmogoyfs into it like every other deck in modern!
I'm trying 2-3 Glittering Wish in the main deck, to make us even better at breaking out of board states.
My current sideboard for glittering wish looks like:
Contrats on both the featuring of this primer, and for getting the deck out to an actual event (and doing well none the less)!
I really like that you tried to make room for a few more counters in the main board, and I feel that you are on the right track with swansong.
Thanks! As for the counters, I feel like we need some way to protect the combo and I would like to up the number so that we can naturally draw them and focus our efforts on digging through the deck in search of combo pieces instead of having to grab emergency counterspells.
When you won, how much mana were you making in each game to cast blue sun's zenith?
Well it depended. My usual route was along the lines of:
Dictate on board >> Early Harvest (~10-12 mana) >> Early Harvest (~20-24 mana) >> Mystical Teachings for BSZ >> draw 15 >> untap 3+ times by using snapcaster and more Early Harvests but every untap I would cast as many Dictates as possible. Basically every untap I did game me exponentially more mana. I think in two of the games I cut the combo off early and won with like 60 mana, and another I went all out and won with 200+. If would give an average of what I would end with it would be somewhere around 80 mana. I liked to always get all 4 dictates down (which I was always able to do) then just do one last untap.
In the game vs. Jund, did you bring in the leylines for game 2? I feel that any deck that is trying to make us discard should have leylines brought in. Also Trying to throw in the copies of terminus wouldn't be a bad idea too, but at that point you have swapped 7 cards which might be difficult to win through. Thoughts?
I thought about it, but I didn't really know what to take out. It was either a turn 0 Leyline or bust, and I didn't want to draw them after I have already been hit with discard.
As for commenting on the surgical extractions, I don't know if enough people play them to bother building in a backup plan in the case were our BSZ gets exiled. However I did consider throwing one R&D into the sideboard, along with a second BSZ, so you can fetch it out if you need it. I don't think you want R&D in the main deck since it doesn't do anything at all on its own, at least bound draws you a card, but I do think there is a point for having it if say, you want to try out playing a few glittering wishes. Wish for R&D, then R&D your second copy of BSZ and keep going from there. Yes it takes a lot of cards to do, but it means that our deck gets even better at breaking out of losing board states.
haha this is exactly the kind of play we want, and I think I mentioned it a bit earlier in the thread. This will add some resilience to the deck, and a way to win in the same way that the Legacy High Tide decks do.
I've looked into getting this deck online since I'm not usually around for when our local store plays modern, but I don't want to have to shell out for snapcasters & misty again. The rest of the deck is dirt cheap though.
DO IT! I don't have access to Magic Online, so we need more people playing it on there. Maybe sometime in the future I can get it because there are sure a lot more opportunities to showcase your results to everyone on it.
[/quote]Awesome. I was typing up my last post when you posted this so I missed replying to it, sorry. Anyway, I feel like this will be the same things as Pure Combo Twin and Tempo Twin. They both win, but just have different routes for how it goes about doing it. Are you going to take it to some FNM's and tell us how it preforms? Even just practice games would help out a lot.
Ill be taking this to my fnm this week, probably change the sideboard up a little bit before hand. This week sadly is the last week my store will be holding modern FNM's for a long time. Which bums me out because its the only format I play consistently. But ive found some other stores in my area that host modern events every Saturday. So on the off day im not playing Pod ill be playing this deck every chance I get and I will post how my matches went.
I have had plenty of practice games. Ive found that UWR Control, UR Twin, both flavors of Pod and Tron are all good matches for us game 1 and sometimes game 2. Pod likes to bring in Thoughtseizes though and I don't want to run Leylines.
Against Pod its basically just a race to see who can get there first. First game the guy thought I was on Scapeshift and was playing stuff like Voice and Orzhov Pontiff that didn't do much to us. So on turn 4 when he was tapped out I flashed in Dictate and won on my turn both games. Super easy wins.
Against UWR you just need to have your anti-counter and hope they don't counter the ramp spells. In game 1 he thought I was on Scapeshift so he kept Cryptic mana up most of the game. So end of his turn I sent in a Dictate with Remand mana up. It resolved I went off on my turn. He tried to Cryptic my Early Harvest after he realized what was going on but I had Remand/Merchant Scroll for Bound//Determined. I won both games, just gotta make sure you go off as soon as you can so they don't get all the mana in the world.
Against Twin, again the guy thought I was on Scapeshift, he didn't even care what I played. He was bolt/snap/bolt'ing me and I was down to like 3 life when I flashed in Dictate and went off on my turn. He brought in counter spells galore in game 2. So he started to counter all my ramp spells and search effects, hoping it would be enough, but he flooded out soon. And then I went off with him sitting there with a hand full of lands.
Against GR Tron I really didn't want him to get Emrakul or Karn before I got my combo. So I just ran through my ramp spells and went off turn 5 with no problems. He ended up just getting Tron online but he was tapped out so I was all good. That's basically how both games went.
Overall, assuming the other guy isn't on blue, its a great matchup for us. Even if they are running counters they often wont have 2 counters to counter the Bound//Determined and your Early Harvests.
The BAD matchups ive had are Zoo, Affinity, Burn and Storm. All of which can become good matchups for us with a good sideboard. All of these decks were the decks in my mind when I was building the sideboard. I need temporary removal against creatures, counters for burn, and permanent removal against Storms' goblins/ascensions.
For Zoo they just didn't care what I was playing in the games I tested. Just dropping creatures and creatures and burned me out by turn 4.
So against them I want the Snapcasters, Snapback, Unsummon, Echoing Truth. Just to bounce their kitty and take some removal.
Havent re-tested it because I know its a bad matchup for us unless we get our sideboard on. Will eventually do.
Affinity, they just dump their hands and Cranial Plating on a Inkmoth Nexus and say "g2?". So against them I thing Echoing Truth and Pithing Needle are often enough. Its a race. I don't want to dedicate too much sideboard stuff to just Affinity.
Burn, its the same as Zoo. They want to resolve all their spells and everything usually hits for 3-4 damage. So I hope I can Merchant Scroll into Remands and just go off before they kill me. I might want to put in something like Nourishing Shoal X4 and Autochthon Wurm X4 in the sideboard since it often answers all the bad matchups. I mean gaining a ***** ton of life is good against aggressive decks right?
Storm can still go off on turn 4 and that's a turn earlier than us so that is a problem. I don't know what to put in except for the Echoing Truths and Swan Songs.
I haven't tested against any other decks. Im scared of Hatebears.
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NEW SIDEBOARD AFTER MORE TESTING
1 Bound // Determined
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Snapback
1 Unsummon
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Reality Spasm
1 Mystical Teachings
3 Echoing Truth
1 Pithing Needle
2 Swan Song
Ill be taking this to my fnm this week, probably change the sideboard up a little bit before hand. This week sadly is the last week my store will be holding modern FNM's for a long time. Which bums me out because its the only format I play consistently. But ive found some other stores in my area that host modern events every Saturday. So on the off day im not playing Pod ill be playing this deck every chance I get and I will post how my matches went.
I have had plenty of practice games. Ive found that UWR Control, UR Twin, both flavors of Pod and Tron are all good matches for us game 1 and sometimes game 2. Pod likes to bring in Thoughtseizes though and I don't want to run Leylines.
Against Pod its basically just a race to see who can get there first. First game the guy thought I was on Scapeshift and was playing stuff like Voice and Orzhov Pontiff that didn't do much to us. So on turn 4 when he was tapped out I flashed in Dictate and won on my turn both games. Super easy wins.
Against UWR you just need to have your anti-counter and hope they don't counter the ramp spells. In game 1 he thought I was on Scapeshift so he kept Cryptic mana up most of the game. So end of his turn I sent in a Dictate with Remand mana up. It resolved I went off on my turn. He tried to Cryptic my Early Harvest after he realized what was going on but I had Remand/Merchant Scroll for Bound//Determined. I won both games, just gotta make sure you go off as soon as you can so they don't get all the mana in the world.
Against Twin, again the guy thought I was on Scapeshift, he didn't even care what I played. He was bolt/snap/bolt'ing me and I was down to like 3 life when I flashed in Dictate and went off on my turn. He brought in counter spells galore in game 2. So he started to counter all my ramp spells and search effects, hoping it would be enough, but he flooded out soon. And then I went off with him sitting there with a hand full of lands.
Against GR Tron I really didn't want him to get Emrakul or Karn before I got my combo. So I just ran through my ramp spells and went off turn 5 with no problems. He ended up just getting Tron online but he was tapped out so I was all good. That's basically how both games went.
Overall, assuming the other guy isn't on blue, its a great matchup for us. Even if they are running counters they often wont have 2 counters to counter the Bound//Determined and your Early Harvests.
The BAD matchups ive had are Zoo, Affinity, Burn and Storm. All of which can become good matchups for us with a good sideboard. All of these decks were the decks in my mind when I was building the sideboard. I need temporary removal against creatures, counters for burn, and permanent removal against Storms' goblins/ascensions.
For Zoo they just didn't care what I was playing in the games I tested. Just dropping creatures and creatures and burned me out by turn 4.
So against them I want the Snapcasters, Snapback, Unsummon, Echoing Truth. Just to bounce their kitty and take some removal.
Havent re-tested it because I know its a bad matchup for us unless we get our sideboard on. Will eventually do.
Affinity, they just dump their hands and Cranial Plating on a Inkmoth Nexus and say "g2?". So against them I thing Echoing Truth and Pithing Needle are often enough. Its a race. I don't want to dedicate too much sideboard stuff to just Affinity.
Burn, its the same as Zoo. They want to resolve all their spells and everything usually hits for 3-4 damage. So I hope I can Merchant Scroll into Remands and just go off before they kill me. I might want to put in something like Nourishing Shoal X4 and Autochthon Wurm X4 in the sideboard since it often answers all the bad matchups. I mean gaining a ***** ton of life is good against aggressive decks right?
Storm can still go off on turn 4 and that's a turn earlier than us so that is a problem. I don't know what to put in except for the Echoing Truths and Swan Songs.
I haven't tested against any other decks. Im scared of Hatebears.
Thanks for the more detailed info on the matchups that you have played. I'm slowly working on the primer over time, so if you ever want to write up some advice for how to play vs X deck then go right ahead and I'd be happy to add it to the primer.
Also what are the thoughts on the new card spoiled in M15: Ætherspouts. On a similar thought why not try playing Ætherize or Evacuation to deal with aggro. My guess is that the 5 cmc is going to be too much but who knows? With some ramp we could get it down on turn 4.
One thing that I have been thinking about is how we can make black mana to maximize the value of Mystical Teachings. Often times right now I am finding that I would like to have another tutor, but there is already a Mystical Teachings in the yard and mana isn't really a problem. My first thought would be to play Talisman of Dominance. This would also enable us to play Thirst for Knowledge as probably the best draw spell we have access to in Modern. The talisman also helps ramp, but our 2 drop slot is very crowded. Thoughts on this?
Also are there any thoughts on Sleight of Hand vs Serum Visions? one sees 2 cards vs 3, but SoH lets us decide between both, where Serum Visions can waste a draw on something that could be going to the bottom to hide it from targeted discard. Thoughts?
If it were down to it id play Aetherize in the list. When I played RUG Polymorph (a homebrew that wanted to buy as much time as possible) I ran it in the list. But since it, and the other options, are all relatively expensive id rather use something that costs 1 or 2 mana so I might be able to flash in the Dictate end of turn. Against most decks I WANT to go off on turn 5, 6 at the latest, or I have a large chance of dying.
I only have Teachings in the sideboard and while I like it, I only like it to find the Dictate. There are lots of targets, but at 4 mana and 6 for the flash back, I don't think its the best. In my list, the only card it can get that Merchant Scroll cant get is Dictate, and Scroll gets everything else for 2 mana.
I like Serum Visions more. While it doesn't give us what we need immediately it lets us set up the next draw or get rid of junk. One thing I do fairly often is Serum Visions, scry and set up, then Telling Time so I can basically dig through 6 cards and get what I need. Plus I already have the Serum Visions laying around and I don't wanna spend 10 dollars on Sleight of Hands.
Although I do like the idea of maybe abusing some artifact mana producers. But I think that deserves a deck all to itself. But Twiddle is always something to consider.
Private Mod Note
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Active Modern Decks
U Tron GW Bogles RG Loam UR Blue Breach RBU Grixis Goryo BRU Grixis Delver GBR Jund GBW Junk
If it were down to it id play Aetherize in the list. When I played RUG Polymorph (a homebrew that wanted to buy as much time as possible) I ran it in the list. But since it, and the other options, are all relatively expensive id rather use something that costs 1 or 2 mana so I might be able to flash in the Dictate end of turn. Against most decks I WANT to go off on turn 5, 6 at the latest, or I have a large chance of dying.
I only have Teachings in the sideboard and while I like it, I only like it to find the Dictate. There are lots of targets, but at 4 mana and 6 for the flash back, I don't think its the best. In my list, the only card it can get that Merchant Scroll cant get is Dictate, and Scroll gets everything else for 2 mana.
I like Serum Visions more. While it doesn't give us what we need immediately it lets us set up the next draw or get rid of junk. One thing I do fairly often is Serum Visions, scry and set up, then Telling Time so I can basically dig through 6 cards and get what I need. Plus I already have the Serum Visions laying around and I don't wanna spend 10 dollars on Sleight of Hands.
Although I do like the idea of maybe abusing some artifact mana producers. But I think that deserves a deck all to itself. But Twiddle is always something to consider.
I feel that the short answer is its just a different deck. It plays its cards and tries to win in in a way that's different. Why play UR Delver when Twin exists? Why play Zoo when Affinity exists? Why make Emerakul our win con when Tron does it better?
As people in this thread have mentioned, we could add Emerakul, Grapeshot, Gifts and so on, but whats the point? There are already decks in the format that use those cards better.
Edit: Also also, I think that the deck can be made to top deck well if you have already played a Dictate or Heartbeat. If the opponent isn't blue then giving them additional mana can only advance their board state so far. Playing dictates ahead of time and then taking advantage of additional untapped mana on later turns is something that this deck should be good at doing.
I feel the same way, I know I can play other decks but I wanna play this deck because of how it plays. It wants to ramp hard into an end of turn Dictate and go off the next turn. It can be rewarding but it can also be blown out very easily especially if it runs out of gas.
I don't expect the deck to ever win a large event and its easy to disrupt but so are a lot of other decks in the format. Its like asking an Ad Nauseam player why he doesn't play Storm or why a Junk player doesn't play Angel Pod. Its because its a new deck and it can do fun things that other decks that might be similar cant do. I mean I tried making a Tron Tooth and Nail deck but when I threw tooth and nail in this brew it just felt right. Maybe it should be made into its own deck but the fact is that an end of turn Dictate can lead to some really crazy deck ideas and I want to explore them. I don't expect anything other than having fun and testing me skills as a deck builder. Plus if you ever meet a group of casual players and walk in with this deck it will just completely blow their minds.
U Tron
GW Bogles
RG Loam
UR Blue Breach
RBU Grixis Goryo
BRU Grixis Delver
GBR Jund
GBW Junk
Active Legacy Decks
BR Reanimator
First things first I will be taking this deck out tomorrow for a Modern event as the first time it is brought out in paper (not on MODO or Cokatrice). I will post back with how I do. If anyone wants to add their opinions to my decklist for any changes that I should make then it is welcome and I will try to make appropriate changes. I think for this first time I will be playing the strictly GU deck that focuses on the Blue Sun's Zenith kill. Later events I may branch out into playing my own Epic Experiment version of the deck.
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Snapcaster Mage
Enchantments
4 Dictate of Karametra
Instants
4 Telling Time
3 Mystical Teachings
4 Early harvest
2 Reality Spasm
4 Remand
1 Cryptic Command
1 Repeal
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
4 Serum Visions
4 Search for Tomorrow
1 Ideas Unbound
1 Merchant Scroll
2 Time Reversal
Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
8 Islands
6 Forest
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Plains
1 Bound // Determined
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Cryptic Command
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 Ætherize
2 Dismember
2 Squelch
So let's catch up on what has gone on in the last little while:
Well I'm sad to hear that you are going to give up on it. Hopefully once I start posting some results I can sway you back. It is obviously not going to be a top tier deck right away, but over time hopefully it can be refined and eventually move up to Established at least. I mean Mono U Tron has done it so why can't we?
I agree. It's the same way that Ad Nauseam can destroy any "fair" decks in the format. This is also the reason why they pack a bunch of discard spells etc... Your point is good, because it kind of illustrates a direction that we could take the deck in. If we Taylor it to be great vs Aggro/Midrange decks game 1, then we can have a sideboard geared towards making matchups 80-90% in our favor for game two against the control decks. If we can find some good balance to heighten mathups vs certain archtypes (speed for aggro/midranged and uncounterable redundancy for control) then the deck can probably start to get some big success. Of course if it was that easy then every deck in modern would be doing it!
Lastly I have been looking into some more cards that I would like opinions on:
Peer Through Depths
Ideas Unbound
Pentad Prism
Lotus Bloom
Distant Memories
Early Frost (as a Time Walk effect in the first 3-4 turns)
Clarion Ultimatum
Skyscribing
There are some others but I'll finish posting some of them tomorrow when I can remember them. I will also want to discuss splashing black for more of a BUG shell, I think I have some cool ideas that might work.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
Distant Memories is strictly worse than Concentrate if your opponent is not an idiot.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
High Tide/Omniscience
This is the current version im running in paper although im building both. This one is more of a glass cannon and similar to storm. It can burn out mid combo but it can survive against most decks. Ive found the only bad matchups for this deck are Zoo and Burn.
2 Time Reversal (I might go to 1 but right now its basically a reset button/draw 7)
2 Blue Sun's Zenith (Most of the times I blue sun myself to draw enough to get my Omniscience and win)
4 Serum Visions (Duh.)
4 Search for Tomorrow (Gotta love turn 1 Search's)
4 Telling Time (My favorite cantrip in the deck, digging for 3 and setting up a draw is huge)
4 Merchant Scroll (IMO, most important card in the list. Can tutor for a win con, draw spell, counterspell.)
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder (The reason we stand a chance against most aggro decks.)
4 Misty Rainforest (Honestly I feel the game cant be won without these.)
8 Forest (Duh.)
6 Island (OP.)
4 Early Harvest (Woooooo engine)
1 Urban Evolution (Might cut but its usually a draw 3/get a land out of my hand)
4 Heartbeat of Spring (I feel these are needed, doing something like Omniscience, Blue Sun, play 8 enchantments = auto win)
3 Remand (I might go to 4 but this spell is mostly a time walk for us. One of the most important spells.)
4 Dictate of Karametra (You NEED this to win. Might add Mystical Teachings but so far I don't have a problem drawing it)
1 Omniscience (Sure its a win more card but this basically ensure's your victory if it wasn't already. Makes it easier to play.)
1 Enter the Infinite (Might cut it but right now its a way to get our win once the Omniscience lands or I need an Early Harvest)
SB: 4 Bound // Determined (Best card in the sideboard, against UWR this is magical.)
SB: 4 Vapor Snag (Unsummon works too, but basically just wanna stall and this helps.)
SB: 1 Snapcaster Mage (I have only found myself siding this in with the Snags but against Zoo and Jund)
SB: 1 Dispel (Against burn and "draw go decks")
SB: 4 Gatecreeper Vine (Also against Zoo/D&T)
SB: 1 Solemn Simulacrum (Against Control. Sure its a 2/2 but its ramp and a draw spell. Its nuts against D&T/Zoo/Jund/Control)
Here is my newest brew using the Dictate of Karametra as the base engine. Basically instead of winning with B-Sun we want to resolve a Tooth and Nail. If it resolves, we win.
4 Birds of Paradise (Turn 1, often takes a bolt but if it sticks it propels us in turn 2/3)
4 Explore (Draw is important, ramp is important, perfect.)
2 Urban Evolution (Drawing 3 when we have dirt in hand is great but high cost sucks, might cut.)
3 Harmonize
4 Tooth and Nail (Wooooooo win cons)
4 Wall of Roots (Ramp/protection)
4 Dictate of Karametra (Engine)
1 Heartbeat of Spring (Secondary Engine)
13 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Breeding Pool
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria (Combo #2)
1 Painter's Servant (combo #2)
4 Search for Tomorrow
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder (Ramp/protection)
1 Helix Pinnacle (Win con #3)
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker (Combo #1)
1 Restoration Angel (Combo #1)
U Tron
GW Bogles
RG Loam
UR Blue Breach
RBU Grixis Goryo
BRU Grixis Delver
GBR Jund
GBW Junk
Active Legacy Decks
BR Reanimator
First, please use decks tags RDS. Second, spending 9 spots on win-cons in the second list and turning on their removal with Birds of Paradise seems pretty bad. Is there any reason why running 9 win-cons and tutors for them at the cost of not running cards like Serum Visions worth it? I'd cut your current win-cons for Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, and Xenagos, God of Revels.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
U Tron
GW Bogles
RG Loam
UR Blue Breach
RBU Grixis Goryo
BRU Grixis Delver
GBR Jund
GBW Junk
Active Legacy Decks
BR Reanimator
Shouldn't you just be able to win by attacking with Iona if you have her in play and your opponent can't remove her?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Anyways, my thoughts for deck 1 are along the lines of:
- We have moved away from Merchant Scroll and onto Mystical Teachings. It hits every card in our deck except for sorceries and Steve, it is worth the 2 extra mana. I am currently happy with my 3/1 split.
- Why run Heartbeat of Spring if you are running Dictate of Karametra? I think the best option for hope that this deck has is delaying until 5 mana and then casting it EOT. Once we can find a reliable way to hit 5 mana then we will start to be a
morecredible deck.- I personally don't like Omniscience and Enter the Infinite. I am under the impression that all you need in the deck is the most essential cards used in the combo. If you are not running these then it starts to weaken your draws and gives you potential to miss a good scry, or topdeck something bad. Every card you replace with a win-more card that "ensures" victory is just replacing a card that both adds to the combo while also having some value outside of it. That is my idea of how the deck should run. Combo when it needs to, disrupt with the same cards when it needs too.
- I like the Solemn Simulacrum in the board. I feel like we can take some ideas from Mono U Tron and get away with playing things like Condescend, maybe Solemn Simulacrum, and maybe even Thirst for Knowledge as great card advantage if we can squeeze in some artifacts somehow.
As for your second deck I don't entirely agree with this:
I think if you are going to be running Tooth & Nail then you should stick to threats that you can cast without drawing a T&N. Chances are if you could cast T&N then you can also cast Emrakul. You will be seeing enough cards (and your second list has no card manipulation) so chances are that you will draw ~2 of these win condition cards that you have. This makes for a lot of dead draws, and I think having them in your deck and always tutoring is better so they are safe from discard and the likes. In my opinion Emrakul is all you really ever need because he can be cast on his own and doubles as a way to reuse our graveyard.
On a side note I am excited to say that went 3-1 when playing the deck in paper. I learned a lot from it and will post a hopefully in-depth writeup of it sometime in the next week once I'm finished it.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
Omniscience looks like a win more card but whenever I play it ends up helping a lot. It speeds the game up in that I don't have to keep track of all my mana after each spell and it lets me just speed through to my win. (Most people have complained that I take to long and either concede or leave). Enter the Infinite is basically another Blue Sun for us so I might cut it, but there are times when I have so much mana and not enough to win or not enough fuel to get my win so it can get my out of a tight spot. Which is why I have them both as a 1 of.
Solemn Simulacrum I threw into the side mainly for fair decks with lots removal and creatures. Its ramp, a blocker or removal dumby, and card draw. But its 4 mana and at 4 mana I think id rather have something else so im keeping him to a single.
The Tooth and Nail deck was just a pet deck idea I saw after I realized how much mana I could produce on turn 5 after a resolved Dictate. I realized if I had 5 lands to play Dicate id have enough mana for an entwined T&N and I felt like brewing.
Also, for the deck as a whole, ive found my best matchups are Pod, Twin, and UWR, which are all huge in the meta and at my lgs. So I think im going to stick with the deck for awhile.
U Tron
GW Bogles
RG Loam
UR Blue Breach
RBU Grixis Goryo
BRU Grixis Delver
GBR Jund
GBW Junk
Active Legacy Decks
BR Reanimator
Now for the tournament report from last Wednesday where I managed to snag an amazing 3-1 record! I went into the night playing this deck which had a couple changes from the list I posted a couple days back:
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Snapcaster Mage
Enchantments
4 Dictate of Karametra
Instants
4 Telling Time
3 Mystical Teachings
4 Early harvest
2 Reality Spasm
4 Remand
2 Swan Song
1 Cryptic Command
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
4 Serum Visions
4 Search for Tomorrow
1 Merchant Scroll
2 Time Reversal
Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
8 Islands
6 Forest
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Plains
1 Bound // Determined
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Cryptic Command
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Swan Song
2 Ætherize
2 Dismember
1 Squelch
Game 2 was much of the same. He tried to counter my ramp this time, but I my turn 1 Search for Tomorrow got me an extra land, I also drew another one and cast it on turn 3. I expected a Counterflux this time, so I waited for 7 mana, then when I flashed in the Dictate on his endstep. As I thought he tried to counter it with a Counterflux, so I Remanded my own Dictate. I drew a Swan Song off of it, and on the next turn tried again and resolved the Dictate after countering his Cryptic Command. I just went off after that.
2-0 in games and 1-0 in matches.
Game 2 I mulled to 6 and didn't have a Leyline in either but I had a half decent hand, so I kept it. I played a turn 1 Search for Tomorrow and got the Plains that I sided in, then found the Leyline after about 7 cards worth of scrying effects. I was on a terrifying 3 life when I dropped the Dictate and then casted the Leyline. He had nothing on his next turn to finish me off, and I was able to search up a Blue Sun's Zenith and go off.
Game 3 I got a Leyline in my opener. After about 3 turns of him drawing nothing to do he just conceded.
4-1 in games and 2-0 in matches.
Game 2 I got hit with a turn 4 Surgical Extraction naming Blue Sun's Zenith. That pretty much put a nail in the coffin. This is why I was wondering about Skyscribing as an alternate wincon, and also because we don't have Cunning Wish in modern Research // Development could act as the same thing. Just a thought.
4-3 in games and 2-1 in matches.
Game 2 I got hit with some Thoughtseizes and a Chord of Calling getting a Harmonic Sliver. It didn't last too long after that. I tried to go off at instant speed to negate the Sliver but I couldn't get there.
Game 3 I had a turn 1 Search for Tomorrow and I Remanded his turn 3 Pod. He naturally played a Melira and a Viscera Seer. Then when I cast my turn 5 Dictate (with 1 mana up for Swan Song to stop the chord this time) he Chorded for a Redcap to go for the kill. I was able to counter it with the Swan Song and then combo off for the win. Honestly in this game I think he should have known that I would have held up a counterspell so I didn't loose to a Chord again, but his misplay, whatever.
6-4 in games and 3-1 in matches
Some changes I would make right off the bat after playing would be -1 or 2 Time Reversal, -1 Merchant Scroll, +1 Snapcaster Mage, +1 Cryptic Command, +1 Gifts Ungiven as a test with +1 Heartbeat of Spring as a way to blow out games with the combo in one card. I'll write back later with some more in-depth card changes and choices.
Overall I think the night was a huge blast to play. I did way better than my expectations for the deck when taking it out for the first time. I had the entire store gathered around the table watching by the end of the night and some of them were interested in the list. I did refer them to the primer too so hopefully we can get some more people working on the deck. It is definitely something that you can take out to your FNM and compete with other decks, and even the "Tier 1" decks. It does have a big surprise factor right now which I think is good for it. It is super cheap to make too, so it shouldn't be hard for more people to start picking it up and playing it on the odd week and getting some good results in.
Looking forward for other reports in the future!
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
U Tron
GW Bogles
RG Loam
UR Blue Breach
RBU Grixis Goryo
BRU Grixis Delver
GBR Jund
GBW Junk
Active Legacy Decks
BR Reanimator
however...
I have been really really liking Snapcaster Mage recently as a way to double the value on any single instant/sorcery we have access to (in the graveyard) as it gives us more options for any given situation. The cards that I played 1-of in my last list are all very situational and they are only ever tutored for, I never hope to draw them. The 4-ofs are cards that I will see once per game, and usually have at least 1 of in my yard by the time I resolve a Dictate. This means that I can have copies of these spells whenever I need to, and can scry additional copies to the bottom of my library by using Serum Visions and Telling Time. By doing this I then remove redundant copies (because I have access to them in the yard) and can look for more important things (mainly Early Harvest and Dictates).
Another thing that I found is that you only ever need 2 land untapping spells to win (90% of the time). This means that Snapcaster acts as Early Harvests 5-7 and allows us to instantly generate enough mana to win.
The reason for the switch is that I never actually casted a single Time Reversal at FNM. Every time I had it in hand with a Snapcaster Mage when going off, I was able to flashback the Early Harvest or Reality Spasm in my yard and win with only that, compared to taking a gamble and drawing 7 cards with the risk of not getting something specific I need. Basically it boils down to consistency and knowing what you are getting. Both cards get you to the end result, but Snapcaster gets you there in 3 steps compared to Time Reversal getting you there in 6. Kinda understand that reasoning?
The last thing is that I want to up the number of counterspells maindeck to around 8, and this means that Snapcaster will act as counterspells 9-11. With a Swan Song (which I am liking very much) it's only 3 mana for a hard counter and a body which is pretty good.
I think that keeping 1 Time Reversal may be the right call, but it will require more testing and right now I'm leaning towards cutting them.
tl;dr: Snapcaster Mage is much more versatile, and creates much more consistent routes of play than Time Reversal by protecting our combo when we need it, and helping us combo when we need it. Time Reversal can only help us combo, and has the chance to put us in a dead end mid combo.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
I know your list works with just the 4 Dictate but in my list ive been running those plus the 4 Heartbeat of Spring. Mid combo I find I have enough mana to cast them. And most games I have played I end up getting 4-6 of them on the field on the turn I go off. It helps me a lot but I can still go off with only the Dictates. But this usually ensures that ill have plenty of mana.
1 hard choice ive had is do I want to run Snapback or Cyclonic Rift or Unsummon in the sideboard against aggressive decks. Because as of right now most of my meta is aggressive zoo, delver, pod and uwr variants. Each has their ups and downs so im thinking ill do a cut of something like 2/1/1 or 1/1/1. Ive found Snapbacks often get rid of my extra Merchant Scrolls or counterspells against non-interactive decks. Rift is ok but I have only ever overloaded when I had enough mana on the turn I was going off and I was burning out. But it can also hit Leyline/Witchbane Orb. Unsummon is just the cheapest temporary removal I know of in these colors. And Vapor Snag's 1 damage doesn't matter at all.
And for the mainboard im running 1 Swan Song, 1 Bound//Determined and 3 Remands for counterspells. How important were each of those in your testing? I like Remands for buying time because sometimes its a Time Walk but other times they are dead in hand and I end up Remanding my own Serum Visions just to cycle it away.
U Tron
GW Bogles
RG Loam
UR Blue Breach
RBU Grixis Goryo
BRU Grixis Delver
GBR Jund
GBW Junk
Active Legacy Decks
BR Reanimator
4 Dictate of Karametra
4 Heartbeat of Spring
1 Omniscience
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Remand
1 Bound // Determined
4 Early Harvest
4 Telling Time
2 Blue Sun's Zentih
1 Enter the Infinite
1 Urban Evolution
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Search for Tomorrow
4 Serum Visions
2 Time Reversal
4 Misty Rainforest
8 Forest
6 Island
SIDEBOARD
1 Swan Song
1 Bound // Determined
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Snapback
1 Unsummon
1 Solemn Simulacrum
2 Reality Spasm
2 Mystical Teachings
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Banefire
U Tron
GW Bogles
RG Loam
UR Blue Breach
RBU Grixis Goryo
BRU Grixis Delver
GBR Jund
GBW Junk
Active Legacy Decks
BR Reanimator
My reasoning is that I want to keep the number of combo cards to a minimum to leave room for more counterspells and utility cards. This is the same reason that Twin decks only run 4-6 creatures to combo with. If they ran Deceiver Exarch, Pestermite, Village Bellringer, and Sky Hussar then they would have no room for the Lightning Bolts and Serum Visions. This is the same reason that we want to have a low number of mana doubling effects. If we can use our Scrying effects and cantrips to get them, then we can make better choices on our cards and sculpt our hands as we play. It also leads to better decision making if you want to go for the tempo/control route or the fast combo and ramp route. I hope that you can see my reasoning for this, but if you don't want to change from the Dictates then that's fine. I wouldn't even say a 4/2 split would be bad, but 4/4 may be a bit much.
Right now I don't really know what to tell you for the best option. I didn't expect much aggro when I played so I didn't have many of these in my sideboard. I would also suggest Repeal as it cantrips and is still a sorta low cost. If I had to say what is the best in a vaccuume though, then I would go with Cyclonic Rift.
I think Remand is the best counter in the deck, and Swan Song is the most crucial for protecting the combo. Remand has more applications and interactions than I can list, but one key one is to remand your spell vs a Counterflux and have theirs fizzle. They will be down a counter and you can try to combo off again next turn. You can also cantrip with it like you said which is useful when you have 50+ mana and want to dig a bit.
I like Swan Song because it we can be at 6 mana and have a protected Dictate. It hits more things than Dispel which is why it gets the spot in the deck. I think it is very good and maybe even worth doing a 3/1 split with Cryptic Command sometime in future testings. The only problem is it is dead vs Aggro and we will be drawing dead cards vs them. This causes us to die extra fast which I haven't exactly figured out how to fix yet!
Lastly Determined is a good way to stop the opponents disruption. I like it vs any blue deck, but I am still on the fence on whether it is better than just having 2 counters in hand. Is it really any different than having 2 counters or 1 Bound and 1 counter? You are going to be playing 2 cards in a counter war anyway, so why not have a more versatile card and play reactive rather than force a counter war if you get what I'm saying. On a side note Silence does pretty much the same thing without the cantrip, but is a mana less which is important because the applications of these cards come in pre-dictate. This means the difference between 6 and 7 mana which is pretty big.
I just wanted to say thanks too for sticking with brewing the deck! I really like your input and want more people like you in here commenting!
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
Contrats on both the featuring of this primer, and for getting the deck out to an actual event (and doing well none the less)!
I really like that you tried to make room for a few more counters in the main board, and I feel that you are on the right track with swansong.
When you won, how much mana were you making in each game to cast blue sun's zenith?
In the game vs. Jund, did you bring in the leylines for game 2? I feel that any deck that is trying to make us discard should have leylines brought in. Also Trying to throw in the copies of terminus wouldn't be a bad idea too, but at that point you have swapped 7 cards which might be difficult to win through. Thoughts?
Thinking about gifts, what would you cast it to get? If you want a Dictate won't they just put the dictate & heartbeat into the graveyard each time?
As for commenting on the surgical extractions, I don't know if enough people play them to bother building in a backup plan in the case were our BSZ gets exiled. However I did consider throwing one R&D into the sideboard, along with a second BSZ, so you can fetch it out if you need it. I don't think you want R&D in the main deck since it doesn't do anything at all on its own, at least bound draws you a card, but I do think there is a point for having it if say, you want to try out playing a few glittering wishes. Wish for R&D, then R&D your second copy of BSZ and keep going from there. Yes it takes a lot of cards to do, but it means that our deck gets even better at breaking out of losing board states.
I've looked into getting this deck online since I'm not usually around for when our local store plays modern, but I don't want to have to shell out for snapcasters & misty again. The rest of the deck is dirt cheap though.
And by using that analogy, I guess the next step for the deck will be jamming some Tarmogoyfs into it like every other deck in modern!
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
I'm trying 2-3 Glittering Wish in the main deck, to make us even better at breaking out of board states.
My current sideboard for glittering wish looks like:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Terminus
1 Detention Sphere
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
2 Bound // Determined
1 Research // Development
1 Bant Charm
1 Sphinx's Revelation
1 Clarion Ultimatum
- D-Sphere gives us our Bounce effect in a multi coloured spell for things
like Leonin Arbiter & Rule of Law
- R&D lets us throw more cards into the deck, or fetch a second BSZ if need be
- Bant Charm hits a creature or artifact that may be annoying
- Sphinx's Rev acts as BSZ # 2 when we want to draw more cards, but not
fetch the actual one from our deck yet.
- And Clarion Ultimatum does just about everything. Fetches more Dictates,
Lands, or Snapcasters from the deck plus its just hilarious to cast.
Well it depended. My usual route was along the lines of:
Dictate on board >> Early Harvest (~10-12 mana) >> Early Harvest (~20-24 mana) >> Mystical Teachings for BSZ >> draw 15 >> untap 3+ times by using snapcaster and more Early Harvests but every untap I would cast as many Dictates as possible. Basically every untap I did game me exponentially more mana. I think in two of the games I cut the combo off early and won with like 60 mana, and another I went all out and won with 200+. If would give an average of what I would end with it would be somewhere around 80 mana. I liked to always get all 4 dictates down (which I was always able to do) then just do one last untap.
I thought about it, but I didn't really know what to take out. It was either a turn 0 Leyline or bust, and I didn't want to draw them after I have already been hit with discard.
Still trying to figure this out, but I kinda want Dictate, Heartbeat, Snapcaster Mage, Noxious Revival? Really depends on the situation, like getting a Early Harvest, Reality Spasm, Rude Awakening, and Snapcaster Mageto get at least 2 land untapping spells.
haha this is exactly the kind of play we want, and I think I mentioned it a bit earlier in the thread. This will add some resilience to the deck, and a way to win in the same way that the Legacy High Tide decks do.
DO IT! I don't have access to Magic Online, so we need more people playing it on there. Maybe sometime in the future I can get it because there are sure a lot more opportunities to showcase your results to everyone on it.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
[/quote]Awesome. I was typing up my last post when you posted this so I missed replying to it, sorry. Anyway, I feel like this will be the same things as Pure Combo Twin and Tempo Twin. They both win, but just have different routes for how it goes about doing it. Are you going to take it to some FNM's and tell us how it preforms? Even just practice games would help out a lot.
And by using that analogy, I guess the next step for the deck will be jamming some Tarmogoyfs into it like every other deck in modern![/quote]
NEW SIDEBOARD AFTER MORE TESTING
1 Bound // Determined
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Snapback
1 Unsummon
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Reality Spasm
1 Mystical Teachings
3 Echoing Truth
1 Pithing Needle
2 Swan Song
Ill be taking this to my fnm this week, probably change the sideboard up a little bit before hand. This week sadly is the last week my store will be holding modern FNM's for a long time. Which bums me out because its the only format I play consistently. But ive found some other stores in my area that host modern events every Saturday. So on the off day im not playing Pod ill be playing this deck every chance I get and I will post how my matches went.
I have had plenty of practice games. Ive found that UWR Control, UR Twin, both flavors of Pod and Tron are all good matches for us game 1 and sometimes game 2. Pod likes to bring in Thoughtseizes though and I don't want to run Leylines.
Against Pod its basically just a race to see who can get there first. First game the guy thought I was on Scapeshift and was playing stuff like Voice and Orzhov Pontiff that didn't do much to us. So on turn 4 when he was tapped out I flashed in Dictate and won on my turn both games. Super easy wins.
Against UWR you just need to have your anti-counter and hope they don't counter the ramp spells. In game 1 he thought I was on Scapeshift so he kept Cryptic mana up most of the game. So end of his turn I sent in a Dictate with Remand mana up. It resolved I went off on my turn. He tried to Cryptic my Early Harvest after he realized what was going on but I had Remand/Merchant Scroll for Bound//Determined. I won both games, just gotta make sure you go off as soon as you can so they don't get all the mana in the world.
Against Twin, again the guy thought I was on Scapeshift, he didn't even care what I played. He was bolt/snap/bolt'ing me and I was down to like 3 life when I flashed in Dictate and went off on my turn. He brought in counter spells galore in game 2. So he started to counter all my ramp spells and search effects, hoping it would be enough, but he flooded out soon. And then I went off with him sitting there with a hand full of lands.
Against GR Tron I really didn't want him to get Emrakul or Karn before I got my combo. So I just ran through my ramp spells and went off turn 5 with no problems. He ended up just getting Tron online but he was tapped out so I was all good. That's basically how both games went.
Overall, assuming the other guy isn't on blue, its a great matchup for us. Even if they are running counters they often wont have 2 counters to counter the Bound//Determined and your Early Harvests.
The BAD matchups ive had are Zoo, Affinity, Burn and Storm. All of which can become good matchups for us with a good sideboard. All of these decks were the decks in my mind when I was building the sideboard. I need temporary removal against creatures, counters for burn, and permanent removal against Storms' goblins/ascensions.
For Zoo they just didn't care what I was playing in the games I tested. Just dropping creatures and creatures and burned me out by turn 4.
So against them I want the Snapcasters, Snapback, Unsummon, Echoing Truth. Just to bounce their kitty and take some removal.
Havent re-tested it because I know its a bad matchup for us unless we get our sideboard on. Will eventually do.
Affinity, they just dump their hands and Cranial Plating on a Inkmoth Nexus and say "g2?". So against them I thing Echoing Truth and Pithing Needle are often enough. Its a race. I don't want to dedicate too much sideboard stuff to just Affinity.
Burn, its the same as Zoo. They want to resolve all their spells and everything usually hits for 3-4 damage. So I hope I can Merchant Scroll into Remands and just go off before they kill me. I might want to put in something like Nourishing Shoal X4 and Autochthon Wurm X4 in the sideboard since it often answers all the bad matchups. I mean gaining a ***** ton of life is good against aggressive decks right?
Storm can still go off on turn 4 and that's a turn earlier than us so that is a problem. I don't know what to put in except for the Echoing Truths and Swan Songs.
I haven't tested against any other decks. Im scared of Hatebears.
U Tron
GW Bogles
RG Loam
UR Blue Breach
RBU Grixis Goryo
BRU Grixis Delver
GBR Jund
GBW Junk
Active Legacy Decks
BR Reanimator
Thanks for the more detailed info on the matchups that you have played. I'm slowly working on the primer over time, so if you ever want to write up some advice for how to play vs X deck then go right ahead and I'd be happy to add it to the primer.
Also what are the thoughts on the new card spoiled in M15: Ætherspouts. On a similar thought why not try playing Ætherize or Evacuation to deal with aggro. My guess is that the 5 cmc is going to be too much but who knows? With some ramp we could get it down on turn 4.
One thing that I have been thinking about is how we can make black mana to maximize the value of Mystical Teachings. Often times right now I am finding that I would like to have another tutor, but there is already a Mystical Teachings in the yard and mana isn't really a problem. My first thought would be to play Talisman of Dominance. This would also enable us to play Thirst for Knowledge as probably the best draw spell we have access to in Modern. The talisman also helps ramp, but our 2 drop slot is very crowded. Thoughts on this?
Also are there any thoughts on Sleight of Hand vs Serum Visions? one sees 2 cards vs 3, but SoH lets us decide between both, where Serum Visions can waste a draw on something that could be going to the bottom to hide it from targeted discard. Thoughts?
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
I only have Teachings in the sideboard and while I like it, I only like it to find the Dictate. There are lots of targets, but at 4 mana and 6 for the flash back, I don't think its the best. In my list, the only card it can get that Merchant Scroll cant get is Dictate, and Scroll gets everything else for 2 mana.
I like Serum Visions more. While it doesn't give us what we need immediately it lets us set up the next draw or get rid of junk. One thing I do fairly often is Serum Visions, scry and set up, then Telling Time so I can basically dig through 6 cards and get what I need. Plus I already have the Serum Visions laying around and I don't wanna spend 10 dollars on Sleight of Hands.
Although I do like the idea of maybe abusing some artifact mana producers. But I think that deserves a deck all to itself. But Twiddle is always something to consider.
U Tron
GW Bogles
RG Loam
UR Blue Breach
RBU Grixis Goryo
BRU Grixis Delver
GBR Jund
GBW Junk
Active Legacy Decks
BR Reanimator
Can't Mystical Teachings also get Early Harvest?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.