Utopia Sprawl is worth it, can help even in the middle of comboing and gives more turn 1 plays, Sleight of Hand is better while comboing than Serum Visions. Enter the Infinite simply wins the game, generate 14 mana play it, then Emrakul them and/or BSZ them after generating 100+ mana, I was playing two but decided to play a 3rd Serum Visions.
One thing I would like to mention is that the land you get from Search for Tomorrow or Sakura-Tribe Elder will be producing more mana than a Utopia Sprawl in the long run. Because Dictates and Heartbeats only affect the lands themselves, the enchantment won't be producing any additional mana. Just something to keep in mind.
Also Sleight of Hand may be better while comboing, but you do need to sculpt your hand before you can combo off. I haven't tested the to of them, and this is something I plan to do so I can't say for certainty, but there are quite a few times that you want to keep both cards on top in order to combo off.
Well with my deck, I NEVER burn out mid combo. I can Blue Sun myself but its often to find my Omniscience, then once I cast that I already have enough fuel and cantrips to find the Enter. Sometimes I get one of them in my opening hand and it kinda sucks but they are both 1 ofs and it doesn't harm the deck. In my honest opinion, I don't think my list im running could win as consistently or quickly without them.
The only reason I would run them if for the speed of comboing off. Having your opponent wait for 20+ minutes while you play solitaire magic and devolving them to counting your mana isn't fun for them. My biggest concern right now if people don't want me to come back to the stores hahahah! BUt yeah, play it for now and let us know how it goes. Maybe in the long run it'll become standard to have them.
On the same token though, why not just run a Rift Bolt and Worldfire? They are two cards that also instantly win. Maybe look at it as why High Tide doesn't play Enter the Infinite even they generate more mana and they do it easier than us. It's because it would take up a maindeck spot (which are pretty tight in this deck) and cause dead draws to happen sometimes. Nevertheless I support it and want to see some results with it. These kind of big splashy effects will draw more attention to the deck.
Lastly, any thoughts on Nissa's Expedition from M15? I have found that creatures are hard to deal with, so some kind of a token maker could turn on the convoke, and it is better than casting 2 Search for Tomorrows in the late game (5 mana vs 6 mana). My only problem is the "comes in tapped" clause which I think kills the card for us because we can never rely on untapping effects outside of our combo turn.
Also the Omniscience/Enter does speed up the combo. Ive been testing all day and ive found my average kill turn time (without these cards) is around 15 minutes. With the cards its around 10. Also it makes things super simple, its like ok I have an Omniscience and I don't have to keep adding/subtracting mana I can just cycle through these cards til I get enough fuel to kill him. Honestly, the only way id take those cards out is if I was re-building the deck entirely. The other version I was considering ran something like 21 lands with the 4 Search, 4 Tribe Elder, 4 Kodama's Reach to thin/ramp and it can go off on turn 4 but its a lot more likely to burn out mid-combo. But that version only wants to run 4 Heartbeat of Spring and no Dictates. That list doesn't wanna run anything costing more than 3 mana.
Also the Omniscience/Enter does speed up the combo. Ive been testing all day and ive found my average kill turn time (without these cards) is around 15 minutes. With the cards its around 10. Also it makes things super simple, its like ok I have an Omniscience and I don't have to keep adding/subtracting mana I can just cycle through these cards til I get enough fuel to kill him. Honestly, the only way id take those cards out is if I was re-building the deck entirely. The other version I was considering ran something like 21 lands with the 4 Search, 4 Tribe Elder, 4 Kodama's Reach to thin/ramp and it can go off on turn 4 but its a lot more likely to burn out mid-combo. But that version only wants to run 4 Heartbeat of Spring and no Dictates. That list doesn't wanna run anything costing more than 3 mana.
My question still stands about how much of a difference Enter makes. Again, say you have 20 mana in your pool and BSZ in your hand. You are going to use BSZ to draw some cards. Now what if Enter the infinit is card 21? Is it really worth playing when you could just get BSZ again, and cast it again?
I like it if you have 20 mana, BSZ in hand, and also Enter in hand, but how often are you drawing it before you go do draw a decent percent of your deck with BSZ anyway? That was my point.
Also the Omniscience/Enter does speed up the combo. Ive been testing all day and ive found my average kill turn time (without these cards) is around 15 minutes. With the cards its around 10. Also it makes things super simple, its like ok I have an Omniscience and I don't have to keep adding/subtracting mana I can just cycle through these cards til I get enough fuel to kill him. Honestly, the only way id take those cards out is if I was re-building the deck entirely. The other version I was considering ran something like 21 lands with the 4 Search, 4 Tribe Elder, 4 Kodama's Reach to thin/ramp and it can go off on turn 4 but its a lot more likely to burn out mid-combo. But that version only wants to run 4 Heartbeat of Spring and no Dictates. That list doesn't wanna run anything costing more than 3 mana.
True. I'll keep it in mind and look into a singleton or something later. Maybe a 3/2 split and 3 Steves.
Also, for my tempo list (on the last page and soon to be on this page) what do people think about playing a 2/2 split with Dictates and Heartbeats, and a 2/3 split with Mystical Teachings and Merchant Scroll. I like the cost of the scroll but the versatility to get the third card I need to combo is amazing and I find I'm playing a lot and needing it. I do tutor for the Teachings then grab stuff when going off too.
Also I have been looking at a red splash as the most beneficial for the maindeck, and a white is the most beneficial for the side. What if we slipped in a singleton swamp or Abundant Growth for the flashback on Mystical Teachings? Would that stress it too much even with say 20 lands total? Including 3 Misty Rainforests and 1 Verdant Catacombs?
Also the Omniscience/Enter does speed up the combo. Ive been testing all day and ive found my average kill turn time (without these cards) is around 15 minutes. With the cards its around 10. Also it makes things super simple, its like ok I have an Omniscience and I don't have to keep adding/subtracting mana I can just cycle through these cards til I get enough fuel to kill him. Honestly, the only way id take those cards out is if I was re-building the deck entirely. The other version I was considering ran something like 21 lands with the 4 Search, 4 Tribe Elder, 4 Kodama's Reach to thin/ramp and it can go off on turn 4 but its a lot more likely to burn out mid-combo. But that version only wants to run 4 Heartbeat of Spring and no Dictates. That list doesn't wanna run anything costing more than 3 mana.
My question still stands about how much of a difference Enter makes. Again, say you have 20 mana in your pool and BSZ in your hand. You are going to use BSZ to draw some cards. Now what if Enter the infinit is card 21? Is it really worth playing when you could just get BSZ again, and cast it again?
I like it if you have 20 mana, BSZ in hand, and also Enter in hand, but how often are you drawing it before you go do draw a decent percent of your deck with BSZ anyway? That was my point.
Best way I can describe it is when ive used it, its helped more than a BSZ would in the same situation. Earlier I had 15 mana in the pool, Enter in hand and nothing else. If I had a BSZ I would have been able to draw 9 cards as opposed to the 40 I got from Enter. And from using Enter I got an Early Harvest and kept the combo alive. Where as I might not have drawn exactly what I needed from the 9.
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Also the Omniscience/Enter does speed up the combo. Ive been testing all day and ive found my average kill turn time (without these cards) is around 15 minutes. With the cards its around 10. Also it makes things super simple, its like ok I have an Omniscience and I don't have to keep adding/subtracting mana I can just cycle through these cards til I get enough fuel to kill him. Honestly, the only way id take those cards out is if I was re-building the deck entirely. The other version I was considering ran something like 21 lands with the 4 Search, 4 Tribe Elder, 4 Kodama's Reach to thin/ramp and it can go off on turn 4 but its a lot more likely to burn out mid-combo. But that version only wants to run 4 Heartbeat of Spring and no Dictates. That list doesn't wanna run anything costing more than 3 mana.
True. I'll keep it in mind and look into a singleton or something later. Maybe a 3/2 split and 3 Steves.
Also, for my tempo list (on the last page and soon to be on this page) what do people think about playing a 2/2 split with Dictates and Heartbeats, and a 2/3 split with Mystical Teachings and Merchant Scroll. I like the cost of the scroll but the versatility to get the third card I need to combo is amazing and I find I'm playing a lot and needing it. I do tutor for the Teachings then grab stuff when going off too.
Also I have been looking at a red splash as the most beneficial for the maindeck, and a white is the most beneficial for the side. What if we slipped in a singleton swamp or Abundant Growth for the flashback on Mystical Teachings? Would that stress it too much even with say 20 lands total? Including 3 Misty Rainforests and 1 Verdant Catacombs?
Should have replied to this in my last comment but im too lazy to go back.
Im playing the full set of each, 4 Dictate and 4 Heartbeat. They have their downsides and ups but I really haven't had problems with them, I actually like drawing more mid combo. As for the tutors I run 3 Merchant Scroll and 2 Drift of Phantasms in the main. I personally feel Drift is WAY better in the deck than a Teachings. It can tutor for Heartbeat, Early, BSZ, and Search (should you need the ramp). I feel that between the Scroll and Drifts I have enough tutors for everything I need. I wouldn't run Teachings in my list but in yours it might work better. I just feel 4 mana for a tutor for an instant or card with flash is a little narrow and expensive.
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Tonight I had a rather mediocre 1-2 record. Not as good as last week for sure, but I absolutely destroyed the GR Tron player tonight and had two turns amounting to about 35 minutes. The list I ended up bringing was:
It is basically the same thing I posted a page back but with like 2 card changes. Anyways, the report:
Round 1 vs UB Mill: So this deck is more problematic than I thought, and seeing as I was playing some singletons that can’t really function when flashbacked……. well yeah. Game 1 I tried to keep waiting, and on his second mill spell he hit my Blue Sun’s Zenith. I was trying to topdeck after that, and it was actually a horrible idea. He hit all 3 Snapcaster Mages then I just conceded after he hit my Time Reversal. I made a big misplay by holding a Remand when he tapped out on turn 4 or 5 with a Breaking. If I would have Remanded it I would have topdecked a Snapcaster on my draw step. I was holding the Remand because I figured he had counterpells somewhere in his deck… but apparently he didn’t. It’s not really a misplay because I couldn’t have known what was on top at that point, but I still regret not being as aggressive with my counters. Also Mind FuneralREALLY hurts when you only have 19 lands in your deck and you tutor 3-4 out. I sided in the Emrakul and four Leylines.
My mistake in game 2 was not mulling until I hit a Leyline. I had a really good hand and snapped it up. I had no white sources in my deck, and I didn’t even realise what I did until about turn 3. That was my first big mistake, the second was that I was one untapping spell away from comboing off. I revealed a Emrakul off of Telling Time and decided to put it into my hand because I thought I could hit 15 mana easy. Again I should have just put him on bottom and let the shuffle trigger resolve. He did have some GY exiling effects but I also had counters. Many mistakes this game, and I feel this is a deck where you play perfect or get really beat up for it.
0-2 in matches and 0-1 in games.
Round 2 vs UWR Kiki Control: I hadn’t played the version with creatures before, and it really hurts us a lot. Spells? We can deal with those. Creatures? Ehhhhh….
So Game 1 he hit me with a Vendillion Clique taking my Early Harvest and then bounced it with a Restoration Angle to take my Reality Spasm. I never drew any untapping spells after this and conceded a bit later after I got smacked for 6 twice. I sided in the Determineds and Dismembers.
Game 2 was a lot closer. I was able to hold off and ramp to 5 mana on turn 3. I waited till I had 7 so I could hold up a Remand. He let the dictate resolve and then I realised my Remand was pretty useless. I passed the turn and then put another Dictate into play. I was pretty stuck for comboing, and had a couple of routes to take. We agreed to play with our hands face up, and no matter what happened he always had me stopped about 5-6 cards in. He was really good about it and interested in the deck even though “He’ll stck to his two card combos.”
0-4 in matches and 0-2 in games.
Round 3 vs GR Tron: This is a good matchup for us. Because they can’t really ever contest our combo, the game becomes more of a race to get a Karn down or combo out. I Remanded his turn 2 Sylvan Scrying which set him back pretty big. He thought I was playing some kind of control, so he dropped his turn 4 Karn and began to exile some stuff. I gave him a Swan Song and an extra land. I flashed in the dictate at the end of turn 5 and went to town. This time I was pretty careful about how I went for the combo since it was the first time that night. It took about 20 minutes of me solitaring my deck (the cards were not cooperating) before I generated 48 mana (which was as much as I could without casting a Time Reversal and potentially flopping). I Blue Sun’s Zenithed him for 45 when he had 43 cards left in his deck.
Game 2 I had to leave in 5 minutes after it started. I played as fast as I could and was met by a Turn 1 Relic, Turn 2 Relic, Turn 3 Tron + O-Stone. I topdecked the single Squelch that I boarded in on turn 4. Once I assembled 5 mana I flashed in a Dictate on his endstep he didn’t react. I began to combo off, casting 2 land untapping spells so he cracked both relics to try and draw two. He didn’t get anything, so he cracked his O-Stone, then I Squelched the trigger. At this point it was an open road and I managed to get 3 Dictates down and have 2 Early Harvests and a Reality Spasm in the yard after the first BSZ. I showed him the fourth Harvest in my hand and 2 more Snapcasters and a Merchant Scroll. He agreed to concede.
2-4 in games and 1-2 in matches.
So this night was way worse than the one before. I made some pretty big misplays that ended up costing me the games but I learned from them which is good. Again, I had the store gathered around the table watching which was fun. I will change my board slightly for next week, maybe delve into red just a bit but I am liking my tempo list as it is right now.
What I will look into is testing a split of Mystical Teachings and Merchant Scroll as both a 2/3 and 2/2, because I am finding that before comboing off you needMystical Teachings and while comboing off you can rely on the scroll, but the fact that it can’t get anything green or a Snapcaster still hurts a lot. Along with this I will also look into a 2/2 split of the Dictate and Heartbeat. Basically so that I can tutor up the Dictate to start the combo and once I go off I can use Heartbeat to save a little bit extra mana.
I am also going to up the maindeck counters. I think Swan Song is the best one right now, but Spell Pierce is more versatile so I want to look into that. Aside from that, a single Cryptic Command in the main and side will be valuable because all of its modes are relevant at some point.
One more thing I am worried about is that the counterspells become worse after resolving a Dictate. Things like a Remand and Spell Pierce which are not hard counters, mean nothing when they have double the casting cost of each spell… I do like the cantrip though, and Determined acts as a counterspell.
1 card can solve your problems my good brewer. Drift of Phantasms is probably my favorite card in my list. Its a 3 mana tutor for most relevant spells.
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1 card can solve your problems my good brewer. Drift of Phantasms is probably my favorite card in my list. Its a 3 mana tutor for most relevant spells.
Hahaha I know you are really trying to promote it. If I like the double Heartbeat route then I may keep it as a 2/2/2 tutor split with Mystic/Scroll/Phantasms.
Mystical Teachings seems a lot better than Drift of Phantasms. It cost 1 more, but it's an instant, and can grab any part of the combo, or disruption, and it can be flashbacked with Snapcaster if for some reason you need to.
i really like the way Torpf's list is looking. The deck is starting to actually look kinda tight. I'v trying to goldfish some brews but haven't came up with anything i really really like yet. But this deck still seems like it has potential to be pretty cool!
Okay so tonight was the last modern FNM for a long time. Here are how my matches went.
Round 1: Burn. 1-2. Game 1 was over before turn 5. He just bolt, bolt, bolt, bump, bump gg?.
Game 2 was good for me, he flooded out and I combo'd on turn 5.
Game 3 was bolt, bolt, jet, spike, bump, bolt gg?
What I learned, Burn was our worst matchup. I wasn't running Leylines and I really think they are NEEDED now and I will explain why.
Round 2: Jund 0-2. Game 1 was pretty good, I combo'd off and burnt out half way because mana flood. I drew something like 5 lands and with each cantrip I only found land or cantrips. Almost had it.
Game 2 was close, he was down to 2 because of his Bob and I was chumping with Tribe Elders and Drifts to stall but I couldn't draw anything and ended up losing.
What I learned, Jund is an OK matchup and Leylines would be nice but Remand was working too. His hand disruption often didn't do much for him and he thought I was on Scapeshift so he kept taking irrelevant spells.
Round 3: Burn v.0.2: 0-2. Jesus I hate burn. There were 2 burn decks in the 40 present and I got paired with both. Wooooooo. Both games ended when he dropped turn 1 Goblin Guide into turn 2 Eidelon of Great Revel.
What I learned, LEYLINES ARE OUR SAVIOR. WE NEED THESE.
Round 4: Melira Pod, 2-0.
Game 1 I got the combo on turn 4 with a lucky hand.
Game 2 I stalled til turn 9ish and had 3 Heartbeat and 1 Dictate on board so I used Drift to find Blue Sun to kill him.
What I learned, against control and fair decks Drift is amazing, Leylines are NEEDED, and I need to learn to sideboard better.
Ok, ill post my list some other time because im tired right now but I ran 2 Snaps in the main and 2 in the side, im going to cut the ones in the side. They don't do much/enough in the deck. I usually have enough mana and action for just 2 to be enough. Drift is beautiful. It was stalling against the Jund deck, taking hits from a Bob each turn. It can tutor for almost anything and I understand people might want Teachings instead but I personally feel that Drift is better and I will continue to run it. Each game I ended up cutting something like 1/1 of the Dictates/Heartbeats. I feel they are needed (more than 4 of the mana doubling effect basically) and I also feel Heartbeat is probably better than Dictate. I went off on turn 4 with Heartbeat and every game I played Dictate I was forced to go off turn 5/6 or even later. 5 lands, tap 3 for Heartbeat, make 4 mana and play something like Serum Visions + Early Harvest is sooooooo satisfying and consistent.
Now for the FNM itself, I never want to see Bolt again. I hate burn, I hate the people who play burn and I hate the reason for burn. I hate it soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much. That said its probably my worst matchup. It just makes me physically angry and upset when I play against it with any deck. It makes me sick. But I feel im forced to now play 4 Leylines and run 1 Plains in the side. Both burn decks were mono red and had no answer for Leyline. Worst case scenario I would mull to hit it and wait for a concession.
For Jund, its a fair deck and ive always felt that way, but hand disruption did nothing against me. He would take something, id draw it or tutor for it later when I needed it. Both games however I flooded out and I just couldn't get out of the land pit I fell in.
Pod, I feel its my best matchup. Its a fair deck and unless they are trying to combo off we can stall long enough with Sakura, Drift and Remand to go off safely.
Before FNM started I had a crowd of 10 people watching me play the deck when I was going off against Pod. 3 people went and bought Spirit of the Lab/Aven Mindcensor and other hate for my deck. I never played against them but now I know not to show off a brew unless I want people to hate on it.
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The problem with any cards like Kodamas Reach, or Sukura-Tribe Elder is that they are completely dead when you are going off, while cards like Explore and Utopia Sprawl are great to ramp before comboing and are still great while comboing.
Well for me, Sakura Tribe elder is good mid combo. It is basically a rampant growth in that it thins and grabs us MORE lands for the next Early Harvest. Explore is only good when you have ENOUGH lands, but with 18 in the deck you likely wont have more than 2 or 3 in the opener. Also Utopia Sprawl isn't good in this deck. It is good for the first 1/2 turns but after that its useless.
This deck used to be called Heartbeat Combo in old extended but that was something like 9-10 years ago.
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People have been Heartbeat Combo in modern with Gifts for a long time now actually.
I really like the name Green's Sun Zenith. Rather than Green's Sun's Zenith, which kinda makes no sense.
I'm on Hazanko's side that the deck should be some iteration of Green/Sun/Zenith. There are too many decks that are just named after their cards: "TarmoTwin, Kiki-Pod, Living End"... Who wants to be another one of those.
The name with the extra 's makes sense when you think of it as Green's "Blue Sun's Zenith", as Green's "Green Sun's Zenith" is banned.
As for Gifts, I really like the card and I do feel that it helps the deck out a lot, but to take the most advantage of it we need to rely on the cards that get sent to the grave which makes the deck more vulnerable to hate.
The problem with any cards like Kodamas Reach, or Sukura-Tribe Elder is that they are completely dead when you are going off, while cards like Explore and Utopia Sprawl are great to ramp before comboing and are still great while comboing.
Not exactly. If I draw them I always try too use them before my next untapping spell. Think about it. If you have two Dictates/Heartbeats down, then a Steve nets you +1 mana. Even if you only have 1 down, you still break even. The more you cast the more exponential your mana production increases. I do like Search for Tomorrow more because it comes in untapped, but Sakura-Tribe Elder still finds a place when comboing off.
Sidenote: I still think this deck should be called 'Spring Harvest' lol, due to Heartbeat of Spring and Early Harvest being our fundamental cards
If you have looked at my list, I have been having some successes with Dictate of Karametra, not Heartbeat. Although both are relevant, both can be played so you don't want to write off one or the other in the name. Green encompasses all of these. The thing with deck names is that everyone thinks they should be called something different. Look at Top Control for instance. Some guy was at a GP or GPT and got a spotlight on him, but he called it Pixy Stix or something similar. To me that is the stupidest name ever, but since he got the spotlight there are actually a fair amount of people who probably call it that.
Also Blue Sun's Zenith is probably the most important card in the deck. It is what we use to both combo and win. Really there are like 4 cards that are important, but this is just the most important.
People have been Heartbeat Combo in modern with Gifts for a long time now actually.
I really like the name Green's Sun Zenith. Rather than Green's Sun's Zenith, which kinda makes no sense.
It's just a play on words. Because our #1 card is Blue Sun's Zenith. Think of it as how Tarmogoyf is "The best Blue creature ever printed." This is Green's version of Blue Sun's Zenith because we use Green to make it work.
As for people running Gifts with this idea. Yes they have been, but they also never got anywhere with it. This is a different take on the deck and how it functions. The idea has been around forever, but the execution hasn't.
The problem with any cards like Kodamas Reach, or Sukura-Tribe Elder is that they are completely dead when you are going off, while cards like Explore and Utopia Sprawl are great to ramp before comboing and are still great while comboing.
Not exactly. If I draw them I always try too use them before my next untapping spell. Think about it. If you have two Dictates/Heartbeats down, then a Steve nets you +1 mana. Even if you only have 1 down, you still break even. The more you cast the more exponential your mana production increases. I do like Search for Tomorrow more because it comes in untapped, but Sakura-Tribe Elder still finds a place when comboing off.
Sidenote: I still think this deck should be called 'Spring Harvest' lol, due to Heartbeat of Spring and Early Harvest being our fundamental cards
If you have looked at my list, I have been having some successes with Dictate of Karametra, not Heartbeat. Although both are relevant, both can be played so you don't want to write off one or the other in the name. Green encompasses all of these. The thing with deck names is that everyone thinks they should be called something different. Look at Top Control for instance. Some guy was at a GP or GPT and got a spotlight on him, but he called it Pixy Stix or something similar. To me that is the stupidest name ever, but since he got the spotlight there are actually a fair amount of people who probably call it that.
Also Blue Sun's Zenith is probably the most important card in the deck. It is what we use to both combo and win. Really there are like 4 cards that are important, but this is just the most important.
People have been Heartbeat Combo in modern with Gifts for a long time now actually.
I really like the name Green's Sun Zenith. Rather than Green's Sun's Zenith, which kinda makes no sense.
It's just a play on words. Because our #1 card is Blue Sun's Zenith. Think of it as how Tarmogoyf is "The best Blue creature ever printed." This is Green's version of Blue Sun's Zenith because we use Green to make it work.
As for people running Gifts with this idea. Yes they have been, but they also never got anywhere with it. This is a different take on the deck and how it functions. The idea has been around forever, but the execution hasn't.
Ill post my exact list later after I get home from the prerelease. But I think it was really similar to my most recent list.
Also I heavily advocate the name "Modern High Tide".
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Ill post my exact list later after I get home from the prerelease. But I think it was really similar to my most recent list.
Also I heavily advocate the name "Modern High Tide".
Ok sounds good. I'll also probably update the OP with more content then too.
As for your name suggestion, that is one that I would be ok with. It encompasses the feel and idea of the deck which I like. Is there a way to make it a play on words, or something really catchy?
Ill post my exact list later after I get home from the prerelease. But I think it was really similar to my most recent list.
Also I heavily advocate the name "Modern High Tide".
Ok sounds good. I'll also probably update the OP with more content then too.
As for your name suggestion, that is one that I would be ok with. It encompasses the feel and idea of the deck which I like. Is there a way to make it a play on words, or something really catchy?
Deck doesn't play high tide so why have it in the name? It won't make sense to people who haven't seen High Tide.
I vote we call the deck "Pixy Stix" to confuse all of the top control players.
Ill post my exact list later after I get home from the prerelease. But I think it was really similar to my most recent list.
Also I heavily advocate the name "Modern High Tide".
Ok sounds good. I'll also probably update the OP with more content then too.
As for your name suggestion, that is one that I would be ok with. It encompasses the feel and idea of the deck which I like. Is there a way to make it a play on words, or something really catchy?
Deck doesn't play high tide so why have it in the name? It won't make sense to people who haven't seen High Tide.
I vote we call the deck "Pixy Stix" to confuse all of the top control players.
Well most of the better players or anyone who has played any eternal formats for the last few years will know of the deck High Tide. This deck basically plays and wins the same way that deck does, just with a modern card pool.
As for your name, Pixy Stix is already a deck with a different idea behind it. Plus that name makes no sense for this deck.
NAMES IM ADVOCATING
Modern High Tide
Heartbeat(or Karametra) Combo
Early Harvest
Early Spring
Blue Sun Harvest
MY LIST FROM LAST NIGHT
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Drift of Phantasms (personally believe this is NEEDED)
4 Sakura Tribe Elder
4 Dictate of Karametra (probably cut to 2 or 3)
4 Heartbeat of Spring
4 Early Harvest
4 Serum Visions
4 Telling Time
4 Search for Tomorrow
1 Omniscience
1 Enter the Infinite
1 Time Reversal (personally feel this card is needed but against burn its *****)
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Bound // Determined
2 Remand
3 Merchant Scroll
4 Misty Rainforest
8 Forest
6 Island
SIDEBOARD
3 Echoing Truth
3 Repeal
2 Pithing Needle
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Drift of Phanstasms
1 Swan Song
1 Blue Suns Zenith
1 Merchant Scroll
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I updated the "How to Play" section of the Primer. Can someone give it a read through and tell me if it makes sense. I wrote it in the car while half asleep so some parts might be pretty out there. If there is a demand I can also give a more step by step guide on how to combo out. Or even make a video of me playing through the combo. It would probably help the people seeing the deck for the first time.
I like the current name, though I would prefer it as Green Sun's Zenith. This is mainly because when I first saw it I thought that it was a deck by some noob who didn't realize that GSZ is banned in Modern and I was pleasantly surprised when I learned that that was intentional.
All i'm saying is, Green's Sun's Zenith makes no sense. Green's Sun Zenith is what you are trying to get i think.. And what actually implies that it is Green's Zenith. Green's Sun's Zenith, grammatically makes no sense.
I'm not dissing the deck though, this deck is cool. Still messing with a list similar to Torpfs and trying to work some things out.
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Not just the Tendo King, the power of the Galactic Leyline surpasses that of the Tempa Emperor, No!, It's magnificent power is even greater than that!
Also Sleight of Hand may be better while comboing, but you do need to sculpt your hand before you can combo off. I haven't tested the to of them, and this is something I plan to do so I can't say for certainty, but there are quite a few times that you want to keep both cards on top in order to combo off.
The only reason I would run them if for the speed of comboing off. Having your opponent wait for 20+ minutes while you play solitaire magic and devolving them to counting your mana isn't fun for them. My biggest concern right now if people don't want me to come back to the stores hahahah! BUt yeah, play it for now and let us know how it goes. Maybe in the long run it'll become standard to have them.
On the same token though, why not just run a Rift Bolt and Worldfire? They are two cards that also instantly win. Maybe look at it as why High Tide doesn't play Enter the Infinite even they generate more mana and they do it easier than us. It's because it would take up a maindeck spot (which are pretty tight in this deck) and cause dead draws to happen sometimes. Nevertheless I support it and want to see some results with it. These kind of big splashy effects will draw more attention to the deck.
Lastly, any thoughts on Nissa's Expedition from M15? I have found that creatures are hard to deal with, so some kind of a token maker could turn on the convoke, and it is better than casting 2 Search for Tomorrows in the late game (5 mana vs 6 mana). My only problem is the "comes in tapped" clause which I think kills the card for us because we can never rely on untapping effects outside of our combo turn.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
Also the Omniscience/Enter does speed up the combo. Ive been testing all day and ive found my average kill turn time (without these cards) is around 15 minutes. With the cards its around 10. Also it makes things super simple, its like ok I have an Omniscience and I don't have to keep adding/subtracting mana I can just cycle through these cards til I get enough fuel to kill him. Honestly, the only way id take those cards out is if I was re-building the deck entirely. The other version I was considering ran something like 21 lands with the 4 Search, 4 Tribe Elder, 4 Kodama's Reach to thin/ramp and it can go off on turn 4 but its a lot more likely to burn out mid-combo. But that version only wants to run 4 Heartbeat of Spring and no Dictates. That list doesn't wanna run anything costing more than 3 mana.
As for Utopia Sprawl, it seems bad. Id rather play something that cantrips like Abundant Growth or Gitaxian Probe or hell even something disruptive like Spreading Seas.
U Tron
GW Bogles
RG Loam
UR Blue Breach
RBU Grixis Goryo
BRU Grixis Delver
GBR Jund
GBW Junk
Active Legacy Decks
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My question still stands about how much of a difference Enter makes. Again, say you have 20 mana in your pool and BSZ in your hand. You are going to use BSZ to draw some cards. Now what if Enter the infinit is card 21? Is it really worth playing when you could just get BSZ again, and cast it again?
I like it if you have 20 mana, BSZ in hand, and also Enter in hand, but how often are you drawing it before you go do draw a decent percent of your deck with BSZ anyway? That was my point.
Also, for my tempo list (on the last page and soon to be on this page) what do people think about playing a 2/2 split with Dictates and Heartbeats, and a 2/3 split with Mystical Teachings and Merchant Scroll. I like the cost of the scroll but the versatility to get the third card I need to combo is amazing and I find I'm playing a lot and needing it. I do tutor for the Teachings then grab stuff when going off too.
Also I have been looking at a red splash as the most beneficial for the maindeck, and a white is the most beneficial for the side. What if we slipped in a singleton swamp or Abundant Growth for the flashback on Mystical Teachings? Would that stress it too much even with say 20 lands total? Including 3 Misty Rainforests and 1 Verdant Catacombs?
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
Best way I can describe it is when ive used it, its helped more than a BSZ would in the same situation. Earlier I had 15 mana in the pool, Enter in hand and nothing else. If I had a BSZ I would have been able to draw 9 cards as opposed to the 40 I got from Enter. And from using Enter I got an Early Harvest and kept the combo alive. Where as I might not have drawn exactly what I needed from the 9.
U Tron
GW Bogles
RG Loam
UR Blue Breach
RBU Grixis Goryo
BRU Grixis Delver
GBR Jund
GBW Junk
Active Legacy Decks
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Should have replied to this in my last comment but im too lazy to go back.
Im playing the full set of each, 4 Dictate and 4 Heartbeat. They have their downsides and ups but I really haven't had problems with them, I actually like drawing more mid combo. As for the tutors I run 3 Merchant Scroll and 2 Drift of Phantasms in the main. I personally feel Drift is WAY better in the deck than a Teachings. It can tutor for Heartbeat, Early, BSZ, and Search (should you need the ramp). I feel that between the Scroll and Drifts I have enough tutors for everything I need. I wouldn't run Teachings in my list but in yours it might work better. I just feel 4 mana for a tutor for an instant or card with flash is a little narrow and expensive.
U Tron
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RG Loam
UR Blue Breach
RBU Grixis Goryo
BRU Grixis Delver
GBR Jund
GBW Junk
Active Legacy Decks
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4 Misty Rainforest
7 Forest
8 Island
Instants & Sorceries
4 Serum Visions
4 Telling Time
1 Time Reversal
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
3 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical Teachings
4 Remand
2 Swan Song
4 Early Harvest
2 Reality Spasm
4 Search for Tomorrow
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Snapcaster Mage
Enchantments
4 Dictate of Karametra
1 Squelch
1 Cryptic Command
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Bound // Determined
1 Ætherize
3 Devastation Tide
2 Dismember
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
It is basically the same thing I posted a page back but with like 2 card changes. Anyways, the report:
My mistake in game 2 was not mulling until I hit a Leyline. I had a really good hand and snapped it up. I had no white sources in my deck, and I didn’t even realise what I did until about turn 3. That was my first big mistake, the second was that I was one untapping spell away from comboing off. I revealed a Emrakul off of Telling Time and decided to put it into my hand because I thought I could hit 15 mana easy. Again I should have just put him on bottom and let the shuffle trigger resolve. He did have some GY exiling effects but I also had counters. Many mistakes this game, and I feel this is a deck where you play perfect or get really beat up for it.
0-2 in matches and 0-1 in games.
So Game 1 he hit me with a Vendillion Clique taking my Early Harvest and then bounced it with a Restoration Angle to take my Reality Spasm. I never drew any untapping spells after this and conceded a bit later after I got smacked for 6 twice. I sided in the Determineds and Dismembers.
Game 2 was a lot closer. I was able to hold off and ramp to 5 mana on turn 3. I waited till I had 7 so I could hold up a Remand. He let the dictate resolve and then I realised my Remand was pretty useless. I passed the turn and then put another Dictate into play. I was pretty stuck for comboing, and had a couple of routes to take. We agreed to play with our hands face up, and no matter what happened he always had me stopped about 5-6 cards in. He was really good about it and interested in the deck even though “He’ll stck to his two card combos.”
0-4 in matches and 0-2 in games.
Game 2 I had to leave in 5 minutes after it started. I played as fast as I could and was met by a Turn 1 Relic, Turn 2 Relic, Turn 3 Tron + O-Stone. I topdecked the single Squelch that I boarded in on turn 4. Once I assembled 5 mana I flashed in a Dictate on his endstep he didn’t react. I began to combo off, casting 2 land untapping spells so he cracked both relics to try and draw two. He didn’t get anything, so he cracked his O-Stone, then I Squelched the trigger. At this point it was an open road and I managed to get 3 Dictates down and have 2 Early Harvests and a Reality Spasm in the yard after the first BSZ. I showed him the fourth Harvest in my hand and 2 more Snapcasters and a Merchant Scroll. He agreed to concede.
2-4 in games and 1-2 in matches.
What I will look into is testing a split of Mystical Teachings and Merchant Scroll as both a 2/3 and 2/2, because I am finding that before comboing off you need Mystical Teachings and while comboing off you can rely on the scroll, but the fact that it can’t get anything green or a Snapcaster still hurts a lot. Along with this I will also look into a 2/2 split of the Dictate and Heartbeat. Basically so that I can tutor up the Dictate to start the combo and once I go off I can use Heartbeat to save a little bit extra mana.
I am also going to up the maindeck counters. I think Swan Song is the best one right now, but Spell Pierce is more versatile so I want to look into that. Aside from that, a single Cryptic Command in the main and side will be valuable because all of its modes are relevant at some point.
One more thing I am worried about is that the counterspells become worse after resolving a Dictate. Things like a Remand and Spell Pierce which are not hard counters, mean nothing when they have double the casting cost of each spell… I do like the cantrip though, and Determined acts as a counterspell.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
U Tron
GW Bogles
RG Loam
UR Blue Breach
RBU Grixis Goryo
BRU Grixis Delver
GBR Jund
GBW Junk
Active Legacy Decks
BR Reanimator
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
i really like the way Torpf's list is looking. The deck is starting to actually look kinda tight. I'v trying to goldfish some brews but haven't came up with anything i really really like yet. But this deck still seems like it has potential to be pretty cool!
Round 1: Burn. 1-2. Game 1 was over before turn 5. He just bolt, bolt, bolt, bump, bump gg?.
Game 2 was good for me, he flooded out and I combo'd on turn 5.
Game 3 was bolt, bolt, jet, spike, bump, bolt gg?
What I learned, Burn was our worst matchup. I wasn't running Leylines and I really think they are NEEDED now and I will explain why.
Round 2: Jund 0-2. Game 1 was pretty good, I combo'd off and burnt out half way because mana flood. I drew something like 5 lands and with each cantrip I only found land or cantrips. Almost had it.
Game 2 was close, he was down to 2 because of his Bob and I was chumping with Tribe Elders and Drifts to stall but I couldn't draw anything and ended up losing.
What I learned, Jund is an OK matchup and Leylines would be nice but Remand was working too. His hand disruption often didn't do much for him and he thought I was on Scapeshift so he kept taking irrelevant spells.
Round 3: Burn v.0.2: 0-2. Jesus I hate burn. There were 2 burn decks in the 40 present and I got paired with both. Wooooooo. Both games ended when he dropped turn 1 Goblin Guide into turn 2 Eidelon of Great Revel.
What I learned, LEYLINES ARE OUR SAVIOR. WE NEED THESE.
Round 4: Melira Pod, 2-0.
Game 1 I got the combo on turn 4 with a lucky hand.
Game 2 I stalled til turn 9ish and had 3 Heartbeat and 1 Dictate on board so I used Drift to find Blue Sun to kill him.
What I learned, against control and fair decks Drift is amazing, Leylines are NEEDED, and I need to learn to sideboard better.
Ok, ill post my list some other time because im tired right now but I ran 2 Snaps in the main and 2 in the side, im going to cut the ones in the side. They don't do much/enough in the deck. I usually have enough mana and action for just 2 to be enough. Drift is beautiful. It was stalling against the Jund deck, taking hits from a Bob each turn. It can tutor for almost anything and I understand people might want Teachings instead but I personally feel that Drift is better and I will continue to run it. Each game I ended up cutting something like 1/1 of the Dictates/Heartbeats. I feel they are needed (more than 4 of the mana doubling effect basically) and I also feel Heartbeat is probably better than Dictate. I went off on turn 4 with Heartbeat and every game I played Dictate I was forced to go off turn 5/6 or even later. 5 lands, tap 3 for Heartbeat, make 4 mana and play something like Serum Visions + Early Harvest is sooooooo satisfying and consistent.
Now for the FNM itself, I never want to see Bolt again. I hate burn, I hate the people who play burn and I hate the reason for burn. I hate it soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much. That said its probably my worst matchup. It just makes me physically angry and upset when I play against it with any deck. It makes me sick. But I feel im forced to now play 4 Leylines and run 1 Plains in the side. Both burn decks were mono red and had no answer for Leyline. Worst case scenario I would mull to hit it and wait for a concession.
For Jund, its a fair deck and ive always felt that way, but hand disruption did nothing against me. He would take something, id draw it or tutor for it later when I needed it. Both games however I flooded out and I just couldn't get out of the land pit I fell in.
Pod, I feel its my best matchup. Its a fair deck and unless they are trying to combo off we can stall long enough with Sakura, Drift and Remand to go off safely.
Before FNM started I had a crowd of 10 people watching me play the deck when I was going off against Pod. 3 people went and bought Spirit of the Lab/Aven Mindcensor and other hate for my deck. I never played against them but now I know not to show off a brew unless I want people to hate on it.
U Tron
GW Bogles
RG Loam
UR Blue Breach
RBU Grixis Goryo
BRU Grixis Delver
GBR Jund
GBW Junk
Active Legacy Decks
BR Reanimator
This deck used to be called Heartbeat Combo in old extended but that was something like 9-10 years ago.
U Tron
GW Bogles
RG Loam
UR Blue Breach
RBU Grixis Goryo
BRU Grixis Delver
GBR Jund
GBW Junk
Active Legacy Decks
BR Reanimator
I really like the name Green's Sun Zenith. Rather than Green's Sun's Zenith, which kinda makes no sense.
I'm on Hazanko's side that the deck should be some iteration of Green/Sun/Zenith. There are too many decks that are just named after their cards: "TarmoTwin, Kiki-Pod, Living End"... Who wants to be another one of those.
The name with the extra 's makes sense when you think of it as Green's "Blue Sun's Zenith", as Green's "Green Sun's Zenith" is banned.
As for Gifts, I really like the card and I do feel that it helps the deck out a lot, but to take the most advantage of it we need to rely on the cards that get sent to the grave which makes the deck more vulnerable to hate.
Not exactly. If I draw them I always try too use them before my next untapping spell. Think about it. If you have two Dictates/Heartbeats down, then a Steve nets you +1 mana. Even if you only have 1 down, you still break even. The more you cast the more exponential your mana production increases. I do like Search for Tomorrow more because it comes in untapped, but Sakura-Tribe Elder still finds a place when comboing off.
If you have looked at my list, I have been having some successes with Dictate of Karametra, not Heartbeat. Although both are relevant, both can be played so you don't want to write off one or the other in the name. Green encompasses all of these. The thing with deck names is that everyone thinks they should be called something different. Look at Top Control for instance. Some guy was at a GP or GPT and got a spotlight on him, but he called it Pixy Stix or something similar. To me that is the stupidest name ever, but since he got the spotlight there are actually a fair amount of people who probably call it that.
Also Blue Sun's Zenith is probably the most important card in the deck. It is what we use to both combo and win. Really there are like 4 cards that are important, but this is just the most important.
It's just a play on words. Because our #1 card is Blue Sun's Zenith. Think of it as how Tarmogoyf is "The best Blue creature ever printed." This is Green's version of Blue Sun's Zenith because we use Green to make it work.
As for people running Gifts with this idea. Yes they have been, but they also never got anywhere with it. This is a different take on the deck and how it functions. The idea has been around forever, but the execution hasn't.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
Ill post my exact list later after I get home from the prerelease. But I think it was really similar to my most recent list.
Also I heavily advocate the name "Modern High Tide".
U Tron
GW Bogles
RG Loam
UR Blue Breach
RBU Grixis Goryo
BRU Grixis Delver
GBR Jund
GBW Junk
Active Legacy Decks
BR Reanimator
As for your name suggestion, that is one that I would be ok with. It encompasses the feel and idea of the deck which I like. Is there a way to make it a play on words, or something really catchy?
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
Deck doesn't play high tide so why have it in the name? It won't make sense to people who haven't seen High Tide.
I vote we call the deck "Pixy Stix" to confuse all of the top control players.
Well most of the better players or anyone who has played any eternal formats for the last few years will know of the deck High Tide. This deck basically plays and wins the same way that deck does, just with a modern card pool.
As for your name, Pixy Stix is already a deck with a different idea behind it. Plus that name makes no sense for this deck.
NAMES IM ADVOCATING
Modern High Tide
Heartbeat(or Karametra) Combo
Early Harvest
Early Spring
Blue Sun Harvest
MY LIST FROM LAST NIGHT
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Drift of Phantasms (personally believe this is NEEDED)
4 Sakura Tribe Elder
4 Dictate of Karametra (probably cut to 2 or 3)
4 Heartbeat of Spring
4 Early Harvest
4 Serum Visions
4 Telling Time
4 Search for Tomorrow
1 Omniscience
1 Enter the Infinite
1 Time Reversal (personally feel this card is needed but against burn its *****)
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Bound // Determined
2 Remand
3 Merchant Scroll
4 Misty Rainforest
8 Forest
6 Island
SIDEBOARD
3 Echoing Truth
3 Repeal
2 Pithing Needle
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Drift of Phanstasms
1 Swan Song
1 Blue Suns Zenith
1 Merchant Scroll
U Tron
GW Bogles
RG Loam
UR Blue Breach
RBU Grixis Goryo
BRU Grixis Delver
GBR Jund
GBW Junk
Active Legacy Decks
BR Reanimator
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
Also the How to Play is pretty good, basically how I go off too. I wouldn't have it any other way.
U Tron
GW Bogles
RG Loam
UR Blue Breach
RBU Grixis Goryo
BRU Grixis Delver
GBR Jund
GBW Junk
Active Legacy Decks
BR Reanimator
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I'm not dissing the deck though, this deck is cool. Still messing with a list similar to Torpfs and trying to work some things out.