Not sure if this thread is dead or not but thought I'd try. I've been working on "simic turbofog" which I have received overwhelming criticism on since it doesn't run a third color and UG is generally not valued in Modern. I originally built this deck because I wanted Kiora, the Crashing Wave to see play. She may not be overwhelming but she's my favorite planeswalker. I love her flavor and as a win condition she's not bad. I get her Emblem off more often than not. Because of her Emblem, Garruk Wildspeaker - ability, and Talrand, Sky Summoner I chose to run Druid's Deliverance as a fog alternative, making Token generation my win condition. Talrand has been a tremendous help, let's be honest if you can't survive long enough to play him you're doing Fog wrong Once he's out, he's a threat that can be hard to handle. Counterspells and Fogs give you flyers out the wazoo. Garruk Wildspeaker and Nissa, Worldwaker support the ability to use him, Both have worked wonders in control by allowing me to play walkers or other threats and still keep mana untapped to maintain my threat level.
I faced a pretty devestating Infect build that turn 1'd a Noble Hierarch, and turn 2 swung to hit me for 13 damage. I happened to not open with Fog but since he didn't have infect I survived with 3 life left (Breeding Pool shocked in to Serum Visions, followed by another shock to use Gitaxian Probe). after that turn, he just couldn't seem to put the nails in the coffin. I stalled long enough to put out Garruk Wildspeaker and made a token to block with, next turn dropping Talrand, Sky Summoner and untapping lands to use the Mana Leak I still had in hand. Long story short, I allowed him to widdle me down to just 1 life left, but I ended up winning. Granted, Infect already should be an almost guarenteed win vs Infect just based on the playstyle, but still.
Affinity, a bit tricky. Hard to counter things when they drop 20 artifacts per turn without actually paying for them. But, I survived long enough to Imprint Fog onto Isochron Scepter, and he was unable to get passed it. Ended up winning once I drew a win condition.
I have a few friends working on Tron and to be honest it's my biggest concern. (I feel like its becomming a big concern for most decks nowadays, Ugin and other new threats have given it even more bite). My best Answer to the Eldrazi is Tamiyo, the Moon Sage. I had one game going where I had Talrand, Sky Summoner on the board and managed to stall long enough to get off Tamiyo's Emblem. I drew into a Druid's Deliverance, which I'm sure I don't have to mention is a double Token spawn. 6 mana open, he swings with Emrakul, the Aeons Torn I cast it 3 times, spawn 6 tokens, feed the annihilator and prevent all the damage. Tron still makes me sweat more than any other matchup, but I'm learning how to handle it.
The last 15 for sideboard were for the meta I faced before eidolon at my shop. It obviously needs tweaking now since the meta has shifted some. Also, I have been wanting to try a different wincon than dreams and visions. Ive been thinking about using a lock down combo like academy ruins and mindslaver. I use to run a fun thing with silence and megrim / lilianas caress that worked pretty well. I avoided green bc there's nothing in green that really excites me to play it over any other color. I avoided creatures in general to blank their removal and wrath. I also don't like the idea of running snapcaster. Sure he's a flash block but he's easily outclassed by most cards in modern and he makes our 1 mana fogs 3 mana since we use 2 to cast snaps and 1 to flashback the fog. I main board leyline bc of burn, storm, and other combos that target. Sb was set up against Tron, burn, living end, and counters for stuff that stops fogging at instant speed ( grand abolisher ) or for twin.
If you want some advice, I'll get back to help in a bit
Mhh, I really like your deck, the concept of having no creatures so their removal becomes useless.
I'll try as it is firstly, but I really want to replace some black cards with blue cards, and creatures for no creatures.
For instance, isn't underworld dreamsa bit hard to cast due to its cost?
Isn't spiteful visionsdangerous as it damages you as well?
Why did you choose Font of mythos over another temple bell or dictate of kruphix?
Why meddling mage instead of another copy of nevermore? Isn't it easier to remove?
Those are the only doubts I have about your deck.
I'm still not really sure about splashing black to what I'm playing (azorius), but I really love the dark side of batwing brume. I just wouldn't know if it's convenient to add a new color for only 2 cards (batwing brume and darkness , as I'm still not sure about SV and UD).
Underworld Dreams can be but usually I get the mana and with font, you draw more. I want to kill them faster and running bell or kruphix is 1 less card per turn. Probably would run bell though bc next to Howling mine, it's our best mine effect. Batwing Brume is a card that twin doesn't think about so when they go off, they don't worry about tapping down a land bc they don't think about it. Against burn, Rakdos charm and revelry are known so they tap down the black or green source. They don't think about Batwing brume. Darkness is bc it's the only black fog and I didn't like green rly anymore. It didn't offer me enough. Ascension is cute and all but I found myself not rly getting it active. I have burn players and isochron is a trap. You use 2 cards to maybe get to use Scepter later and usually it's bad bc they destroy it. In my experience, unless the opponent quits which rarely happens, I only get 1 game in a round so I main deck leyline with 1 sb and also dawn charm will counter some burn so there's enough there that u won't run a 3 or 4 mana fog just to gain some life when I can normally beat them anyways. The issue with burn is eidolon. Meddling Mage serves as my answer to turn 3 karn. If they are on the play and are able to turn 3 karn, there's not much we can do but lose. T2 Mage stops karn. Unless they kill it and that's why I have counters in the board and a 2nd Mage and nevermore. SV can hurt us but they draw first on all our draw effects except if you flash out kruphix or when u use Temple Bell so it will easily kill them first
Game 2, I mainboarded LoS and rest in peace (I use that instead of tormod's crypt) so his Snapcasters wouldn't bring anything back, played 2 LoS turn 0, and then he left the game saying "sorry, gtg ggs". So I guess it's a walkover victory! The sweetest kind of victory!!
Gotta play more this thing in order to get more conclussions. I'll update this ASAP.
Edit: The good thing about the scepter is that it also works as some kind of scapegoat. At least on the games I played, my opponents would rather kill my isochron scepter instead of my howling mine or draw sources. And the obvious advantage of never being fog-screwed. Probably it's better to play early on t2/3 or the late game so you don't have to spend all your mana, and you can keep fogging (otherwise you'll have to pay 4 mana for only one fog).
I don't think scepter is a wincon, or that relevant for the strategy itself, you can still keep fogging all day as usual, but once it hits the board it helps a lot, and it's really a threat (to their attacks).
The counter war is always hard. I hate seeing them counter T2 Howling mine bc most ppl nvr do that. As far as everything getting countered and bounced, it's kinda one of those times that I want to run something that only allows them to play instances on their turn but usually you have to hold your fogs and out fog their counters. Like i said... i dropped the deck a while back when I heard eidolon was coming. Now on the whole Scepter thing... i don't think it works the way you're saying. I could be wrong bc i don't have a Scepter in front of me right now but doesnt it say cast it without paying it's mana cost? So therefore you're still casting it which triggers eidolons ability? I need to revamp the deck since pod is gone. The meta has changed the list is sub optimal atm. A different win con is for sure needed. I'm thinking the slave lock with academy ruins and mindlslaver
Yeah, IKR?, I always try lo leave as much mana open as possible whenever I face the first counter. It sucks when they counter your turbo, do they really know we're playing turbo-fog, and what it's all about? It doesn't happen really often though, and then I "trick" them telling'em my wincon is gentleness by reminding them to draw their extra cards .
Before going on, I'd like to say that I'm trying a modded "Tylerfog" deck in which I added some more blue, replacing some black stuff (only kept it for batwing brume's dark side and darkness) and changed the main wincon to mill, as I think it's more suitable to turbo (we're decking our opponent already, last weekend I got my opponent drawing 7 cards per turn, and finished him with Jace, he was playing zoo, so it was a pretty much easy matchup) using (in addition to the mines) Jace, memory adept and Jace Beleren (not at the same time ). As and alt-wincon I added a couple celestial collonades, taking away some blue/black duals.
That said, about the cards for avoiding bouncing/countering, I thought about Teferi, mage of zhalfir, angelic arbiter, grand abolisher (for the mine counters), and even iona, shield of emeria, but I'm not sure about their mana costs as well as playing creatures in this deck.
Probably narset transcendent could be an alternative, having her 1st ability for having that additional fog/mine/jace you need, her 2nd doesn't seem much useful as we don't play instants/sorceries on our own turn, but her ultimate seems sweet for locking down their counters/bounces.
Or following the mill wincon, forced fruition could be a nice addition too.
Oh, and i also thought about the isochron scepter // silence lock, but if you don't get your silences early on, think it kinda loses power and becomes sort of a dead weight.
Also, I realized that on your latest decklist you were/are playing blue mana almost solely because of your sb. The only mainboard card which employs one blue mana is supreme verdict. So more Jace mainboard could be an option.
Mindslaver combo always seemed fun to me, definitely gonna give it a try later on.
Unfortunately, eidolon of the great revels effect goes on the stack after any fog effects you cast, so it it will always resolve first. Mainbord leyline and life gain effects are the only way of standing a chance against burn G1. SB kor firewalker and story circle are the best answers ive come across, but its still a really, REALLY bad match up. What Turbo fog needs is a 3 mana planeswalker that gains life, everything else is either too slow against burn, or targetable by destructive revelry and wear//tear.
The only other deck in modern that runs mine and Bell is owling mine which is very dependent on their turbo cards so they may think we are playing that and counter them for that reason. Mill is the natural win con of turbo but if you make it you win con, you need leyline of the void or cards of the like bc anything that would allow them to get their grave back in sucks. LotV type cards are obviousy sb for those decks but you get what I mean. Also... with mill as the win con, I'd probably add in increasing confusion
I've just played against B/W tokens, and lost 2-0, again, because of my own inexperience.
Game 1, i started fogging when he became a lethal threat, and just got him drawing 6 cards per turn (4 howling mines and one dictate of kruphix)+ 2 more on my turn thanks to Jace Beleren and temple bell. He had tons of tokens out there, but nothing to worry about as the fogs kept coming thanks to elixir of immortality and ulamog, the infinite gyre.
I milled his library to 10 with Jace's ultimate, leaving me just one turn before the win.
He attacked me with everything, I casted ethereal haze, but he then casted some sorcery which allowed him to sac any amount of tokens/spirits for 2 dmg each, so that was it, no leyline of sanctity in play nor dawn charm in hand.
Game 2 I wasn't really sure what he was going to mainboard so I stared at my sb for a while, then got nervous as my opponent had already finished, and just got into the game without any changes. (yeah, so dumb, I know).
So I mulled to 6, as I had only one land, kept it because of temple bell and 3 fogs, he then destroyed my temple bell with some sorcery, but howling mine came next draw. So i kept drawing and fogging, and he kept casting spirits, until he casted spirit of the labyrinth, which totally hosed me, it just felt sooo weird to draw only one card per turn... I drew supreme verdict which was probably the fastest solution to that hoser, but he casted rootborn defenses, and this happened just twice!! this made me think a lot about merciless eviction.
So, running out of fogs, I casted luminarch ascension hoping to cast enough angels to stop him, but I didn't so he finished it near turn 15/18.
Then I realized I should have played a couple rest in peace and some counters, but I didn't really know what to expect.
I'll share the decklist I'm using these days (tweaking something everyday!).
I've never seen Owling mine before, but there are some really cool card choices there. Do you think it would be possible to split Turbofog with Owling Mine? I mean, the concept it's not exactly the same, but both decks want to draw and make the opponent draw tons of cards. In fact, most of the matches I played to date, my opponents would have to discard eot because of having more than 7 cards. Do you think ebony owl netsuke could be a wincon too?
spirit of the labyrinth... Wow. So i can say with reasonable certainty that he sees almost zero play competitively. Was this person aware of your deck before enering?its the only explanation i can find. He does completely shut us down, so if you expect to see him you should probably pack spot removal in the board. Honestly though, turbo fog doesnt do well when people plan for it, too easy to disrupt.
Actually, most metas have shifted over quite a big and spirit of the lab is becoming very popular. Here's a list I've just come with on paper but looks and feels real good, about to proxy test it for a while.
1 Acidic Slime
1 Stonehorn Dignatary
1 Jace, Memory Adept
1 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
1 Venser, the Sojourner
1 Clinging Mist
4 Dictate of Kruphix
1 Elixir of Immortality
4 Ethereal Haze
1 Gifts Ungiven
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Noxious Revival
1 Psychic Spiral
1 Safe Passage
2 Spell Pierce
4 Spell Snare
1 Sphinxs Revelation
3 Summer Bloom
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Alchemists Refuge
1 Breeding Pool
1 Dark Depths
1 Flooded Strand
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Temple Garden
1 Thespians Stage
1 Windswept Heath
2 Disdainful Stroke
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Swan Song
3 Wipe Away
So ive been out for a few sets now and am coming back with turbo for the first time sonce eidolon of the great revel was printed. Been running burn. But havent been in for awhile now. Whats the top decks by percentage played/placing in top 8. Im playong pretty much the same list but running 3 gideon, champion of justice over the underworld dreams and spiteful visions. Im looking to adjust my sb to whats being played the most. Obviously theres burn, twin, elves, grixis delver, and affinity, but what else has emerged? After some playtesting i may also change main deck an posiibly change colors depending.
It would be interesting, but I'm not sure if it would be good, if we made an esper list utilizing Bloodchief ascension to gain life and eventually win the game, using creeping tar pit, batwing, and countersquall to stack it up. Actually, Spiteful visions stacks it as well.
Also, is venser's journal just bad? I really want it to be good here...
I feel like a mill version of the deck with the new Jace, Vryn's Prodigy and Sphinx's Tutelage might be effective. The deck would also need another win-con as Gx Tron and Leyline of Sanctity are both popular in this meta. I think a white splash for the fog effects and Luminarch Ascension would be pretty good. Any thoughts?
Yeah totally, you may check my decklist a few posts above, it's pretty much what you said, but with Jace Beleren and Jace, memory adept instead of Vryn's Prodigy due to: 1- Not being released at the time I made the deck. 2- Being another temple bell as well as a wincon and some sort of bodyguard (most players try to kill him first instead of you).
As for Sphinx's tutelage I'm not sure, it feels like a expensive jace's erasure or sth..
Another kinda combo I've been thinking about is Swans of brynn argoll or some indestructible guy with pariah but I'm not really sure how much effective it would be. I'm in love with pariah, I used it a ton in casual on a deck that played stuffy doll, cho manno, revolutionary, swans of bryn argoll and indestructible creatures as well as manlands and fogs, it wasn't really focused, but pariah was plenty of fun to play with that sort of dudes or even on your opponent dudes so he attacks himself.
What about adding the circles of protection or at least story circle for the sb?
Or porphyry nodes maybe, if you're playing creatureless?
For the sake of the thread, I'm not really sure how things are done here in mtgsalvation, but the creator hasn't been around for a while and I think it's truly necessary to update the first post (Matchups, staples, decklists, card choices, etc) to get all this ideas/discussion out of the "brainstorming" somehow and help this rogue grow up. We truly need to summarize what's been around here in order to get all ideas straight without having to read the whole bunch of posts.
Edit: Hell, even videos would be a nice addition, don't hesitate on recording yourself, even if it's a KO loss, it's useful to learn from it!
Personally ive left the mill plan and am trying to gain life an flip chalice of life. That has become my new win con with mill as a win con that just naturally happens. Psychic spiral is cool if youre on the mill plan but to me, our worst match up even with turn 0 leyline is burn. Eidolon can still kill us with most of our spells being 3 or less. Elixir gets my vote bc of burn even if i wasnt trying to gain life. Plus it itself nvr hits the graveyard which can work against RiP. Pissed off a few ppl at a tourney with that and they tried judge callin me and i was like it doesnt say sacrifice.
Ever since it was spoiled, I've been dreaming of TurboFog variation featuring Séance. I think what enamored me was the idea of playing Fogs; using Snapcaster to replay Fogs; then using Séance to replay the Snapcaster to replay more Fogs (and if that Fog is Druid's Deliverance, getting another Snapcaster for something else). It would also work with Kami of False Hope, Stonehorn Dignitary (added benefit of working when Séance'd on your turn) and Haze Frog (added benefit of being a frog, yo). I remember dreaming of using Sphinx of Uthuun too (with Séance and Snapcaster, neither pile is really a loss).
Obviously weak to graveyard hate, which is everywhere; but Séance'd creatures can't be countered either, meaning that it's a little more resilient once the engine is up. Maybe. Who knows.
I guess just Séance is not so much "Turbo", but trying to get more out of the resources we have. And in a deck that keeps its hand as full as this one, getting the right stuff into the graveyard shouldn't be a huge obstacle, though I suspect it's keeping it there that would be the issue.
EDIT: And if all of your creatures are effectively Fogs, Evolutionary Leap could pick up some extra value in a creature-heavy build. But now I don't know how far I'm diverging from the concept...
It would be interesting but theres so much enchantment hate atm i feel bc leyline is still one of if not the best answer to many decks right now. Burn, storm (grapeshot), 8 rack/any hand disruption, scapeshift, american control with bolts and helix, etc. ive ran 3-4 main and theres so many g1's that are just given if it hits play bc they dont have main deck answers so the only other way is to attack us and thats what this deck prevents. Id say give it a shot online if you can and see what happens. If it works, maybe. Personally i still believe snaps is trash in this deck. I understand hes a great card but id rather just play another 1 drop fog over 3 mana to replay a fog. Thats me. I just dont feel hes all the advantageous for us like he is in other decks. Im playing with the win con still. Im thinking about running darksteel reactor and ways to bump it faster
I will be interested to see how the Tutelage builds do. The point of TurboFog in other formats was that you didn't really play a win condition, but they never really set the world on fire either, so give it a shot, right?
Edit: Also I forgot to ask you what do you think of monastery siege? . It seems like some standard card drawal/filtering engine or otherwise some tax for burn, or maelstrom pulse/artifact hate.
I love Monastery Siege for exactly that reason: it's Turbo when you need Turbo (which the deck would run anyway), but it's resilience when you need that instead. Since it sacrifices almost nothing, I'd definitely give it a try.
Hi there. Ok, let's see, I'm sorry I haven't explained the reasons behind card choices.
So we both agree about mikokoro, center of the sea. Cool card draw engine, which also taps for mana and is resilient to artifact hate or creature hate.
1) We don’t play creatures so my first fright is that the moment we animate our manlands, our opponents will have removal waiting in their hands doing nothing but take up space. So we are unable to attack/block and we will lose one of our lands. The moment we have a Leyline of Sanctity out the Lightning Bolts will sit and eat our Tarpits.
2) Now what if our opponent has a creature dense deck that just turns everything sideways? They played some fetches, some shockers, etc. and lost some life. When we would use multiple copies of Batwing Brume we could really punish them when attacking with 6-7 creatures (I once did 14 dmg against an Elf deck). Against those decks our manlands could give the final blow, but again, we have to watch out for unused removal.
1) I was thinking if it's a possibity to first check out which deck our opponent is playing and then decide whether to animate our lands or not. I.e. We could play only 1 copy each of celestial colonnade/creeping tar pit and keep them just as a slow mana source until we figure out how much creature removal our opponent plays, or until late game, when we would be able to risk a land for damage as we would have many. After all, we'll always have elixir of immortality to reshuffle them. Again, it's just a backup plan, not the main wincon so we can use them just as lands.
2) Exactly, if my memory doesn't betray me, I once beat a BW tokens deck (which had LOTS of tokens on the battlefield late game) thanks to batwing brume and an angel token generated by luminarch ascension as a finisher (I'm not really sure if i still want to play this card).
3)Playing Jace you could say the same thing. Sure we can protect him from combat damage, but will he be a shooting duck against any other kind of removal which essentially gives our deck a useless slot.
You could be right about this one, all the burn will hit Jace ONCE we have leyline of sanctity out. Still, the non-burn removal is mostly the same for planeswalkers/artifacts/enchantments (abrupt decay/maelstrom pulse/kolaghan's command). I could use the same argument for howling mine for instance, since lots of decks play mainboard artifact hate due to affinity being extensively played.
4) Looking at the current tier-decks I have a hard time convincing myself manlands or Planeswalkers will work. So that, or am I to worried about removal? We do have Swan Song and Remand to counter but do we need those to counter other threats that really can screw us over?
The main reason I would play counterspells is other counterspells/removal/burn, because no one likes to lose that fog that could have saved you from lethal damage. That being said, I don't think remand could be that useful here except for the card draw, because we're not playing tempo here nor seeking card advantage, and because there are cheaper counterspells for that. Even mana leak should be more useful in the early game or when the opponent is tapped out. I'd play some hard counters instead such as swan song or dispel.
However, I don't know if it's better to use counterspells or just over-fog our opponent.
Quote from sicsempertyrannis »
Also what do you guys think about the red circle of protection/ story circle for thje sb?
Can you give us an example when you would board that card in? Would you play that instead of one of the fog effects?
Is there enough dredge, Tron (mill away Emrakul), Snapcaster, delve, Kolaghan’s Command etc. being played to enable us to play Rest in Peace mainboard. Look, we don’t make use of our GY, so why would we let our opponents be able to? I’ve got an inkling that when I go to an event I will make use of that R.I.P. How do you guys see the current meta, and would a R.I.P. fit in that meta?
You're right, we don't make use of our graveyard, but i don't think we want our fogs in the exile zone as we want to recur them (or reshuffle them) with elixir of immortality. We need the fogs to keep coming as we can't really tell when we're going to win (screw that turn 4 format thing, you know..)
I've played Tylerstegman's decklist yesterday with few modifications (sorry dude, I really like your deckbuilding) celestial colonnade/creeping tar pit+ Jace Beleren, replacing 2 shocklands + temple bell, against a GBW creature based deck which extensively used landfall triggers, he casted half his deck as any mono green ramp would do, fogged him, then casted sphinx's tutelage and won after 3/4 turns as he had almost no lands in his deck, and most cards shared G. Easy win, but no top tier stuff. I'm starting to like sphinx's tutelage, guess I overlooked it.
Then I won against an UG infect deck, as he couldn't kill me in turn 2, (he hit me for 7 poison) naturally milling him with the draw engines, fogging almost every turn, sweeping his dudes with supreme verdict as i run out of fogs and then using jace's ultimate to seal the deal. That could be something, but the other guy logged out before g2 so I couldn't bring in the sb for testing.
All in all, 2 creature based decks that had no answers (at least mainboard) to fog/artifacts.
Forgot to include monastery siege though, gonna include it ASAP
BTW, what do you think about forbidden orchard as a manabase fixer? Do you think it is worth to give the opponent a 1/1 dude for 1 mana of any color?