I will start by saying that I do not disagree at all with most if not all of what you said. If you recall, I was recommending and heralding the card before. I am testing this deck out in paper, and unfortunately never play affinity or scape shift, so that heavily affects my build. If I were to go t a big tournament with this deck (I would definitely wait on it ATM) I would play GQ. Also, I do realize that you would hold GQ if you would get mana ruined, I was just exPlaining why the two cards can be difficult to play together. If you pop GQ, then draw smallpox off the top, you won't be happy is all I am saying. I do love GQ and likely will be returning to it, I am just testing out some more beaters. That said, I will continue to play devil's advocate.
The only issue with Your argument is that it isn't so cut and dry. I don't have much time to respond, and I apologize for what may seem poorly explained. Obviously top decking the bigger man lands is better, but that is like saying top decking baneslayer is better than a birds of paradise. While true, the cards serve different purposes. Mutavault is for hitting in the little bits that decks like, 8-rack monoblack control and us, love. Not to mention, activation costs make it much more efficient, and easy to use, should our opponent let their defenses down, without tapping out to do so (colonnade's activation cost). Thoughtseize and swinging for two for example. Sure we have a huge fatty to swing games, but he doesn't come out every game and having incremental damage is key in those.
Against heavy control where colonnade is the primary beats, victim of night hits just as well, our bitterblossoms chump (I will chump a 4/4 yes please) Percy is fat enough to defend, and sb cards like pithing needle if need be. I haven't really ever been afraid of manlands, but I have had games where slow trickle of burn or other small amounts of damage, like 8-rack or zoo weenies, have gotten me. I am not saying that GQ is worse by any means, I honestly love the thing, I am just saying that it isn't as cut and dry as "if they are playing man-lands, then ghost quarter is better" (not saying that is what you are saying, just love using hyperbole) I don't think that having mutavault means we are a race deck, often times we trickle damage through using he land, but we are on the beat down in many matchups.
Another thing is, I only have 10 maindeck discard, and fewer spot removal. whereas this is a lot, I rarely have complete control over their hand, but rather take the best parts of it. That said, losing a mana race (dropping behind due to smallpox and GQ) can feel bad when they top deck wormcoil or some other relevant threat while I have a Percy in hand. Bitterblossom is not nearly as strong holding them at bay, in my experience as yours. (Granted I do not play bad moon)
Sorry this was hastily written so if anything is untrue or weak I apologize.
Tl;dr: calling the GRIZZLY BEAR sized land a "weak 2/2 beater" is a little unfair and not really descriptive of the purpose it serves.
Also, @the blooded one, nice list, how often is your devotion high enough for him to pull his weight? Just curious with the lower permanent count. I haven't tested devotion at all in modern, and my experience with obliterator is minimal. You have a ton of maindeck removal, which is what I miss most about my current build.
Underworld connections might be better as phyrexian arena's and I would even consider vampire nighthawk in your build as he can be removal, and count towards your devotion if you attack their hand the right way. I might move surgical to the sideboard though.
@ parmaha: the fact that he is a two of keeps him from showing up to often or when devotion is to low. He may be win more at this point. I would love to just replace him with Nighthawk but my 3 drop spot is full up i feel.. In my meta there are just way to many lighting bolts being cast to play him. I could use some main deck life gain though. Ideas?... I tested phyrexian arena and underworld connections and found that I really prefer being able to control my life loss... As far as the amount of removal goes. I sometimes feel like I have to much but I really like answering there threats and moving blockers out of gatekeepers way... I swear by surgical extraction in any mono black build.. We are all about x for 1s and this is a great tool. One of the greatest at our disposal I feel. Especially if you know of can figure out what type of deck they are using. This also let's us see there hands, permanently gets rid of some of there tools and also gives us great game one vs combo.
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The clause at the end of my analysis says that each situation is different, and overall Mutavault is about as good as ghost quarter. I answered the questions I posed for my specific build. For your build and your meta, Mutavault may be the best option. It's a great card, but still I prefer Ghost quarter for the control ability in key matchups I see often enough. The whole point of the post is to not make blanket statements about either card but rather to do a meta analysis to help people make the decision for their situation - which is not cut and dry if you get what I mean.
In my particular build the opponent never gets to cast wurmcoil engine. The one game I saw one cast against me in a tron matchup, I beat him to death with flying creatures the very next turn.
Also, when I say that mutavault is worse than any other manland in modern when topdecking I am not referring to topdecking the manland. Most decks that run them have multiple copies and likely already have one in play. If they topdeck more - it gets even worse.
After looking at my own analysis and reading all of your posts, I feel Mutavault is a very good choice for your deck and I look forward to some tournament results! It is just not the choice for me.
All in all, after the posts I am starting to really see a trend developing with the lists in our brewing community - a more aggressive variant and a more control variant. Eventually we will need to demarcate the two and write up the differences and card choices appropriate to each based on our testing (sort of like how the 8-rack thread has "proactive" and "reactive" lists separated).
As far as devotion builds go I would say the jury is still out on them. Many of them look like good decks, but the lines between the gate, mono black control, and mono black devotion have been heavily blurred. I think that decks running Gray Merchant of Asphodel are a different deck, but we shall see how they develop. I cannot really comment on these builds since I have never tested a deck that is similar.
The following is the core of the gate and decks that don't include any of these are probably not "the gate" if you know what I mean:
Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
@the blooded one, Surgical extraction is definitely a meta call. If it is good enough in your meta, it is almost op. The card is awesome, just depends on how your meta is built. Life loss is a tough thing, I tried out pharika's cure (the thirsty sorin version) but I can't quite find cheap life gain to balance out all the pain. Vampire nighthawk seems like the only half decent one though at 3 cmc it is in the most competitive slot.
@jwelt, oh I know what you are saying. Don't interpret my devil's advocate for genuine argument, I just always like to hash out every card decision to best develop decks to their potential. I literally agree with everything you said, I just wanted to put in some more cents for mutavault. I definitely agree that this deck has two forms and I do agree in aggro and control as the options. I don't think I understand your comment about topdecking manlands. I would think that top decking a mutavault with one in play, seems pretty good compared to say raging ravine in the same situation. You can easily activate both and swing for four. Obviously neither is ideal late game, but it is essentially the equivalent (if not better for the potential damage) of drawing lands late game which is unavoidable.
P.s. I tested single preboard matches against pod, twin, and some weird unearth deck today, mutavault was a champ against twin and better than good against pod, didn't draw it against the unearth deck. Funny enough, the unearth deck was the one I lost to (though this had nothing to do with mutavault). These are obviously matchups where mutavault is better though so it isn't evidence of mutavault's inclusion being successful. I still need to test against the matchups where GQ shines, to see how much hit I took in control power. Grey merchant is a tricky card. Hard to analyze, but yes the lines are heavily blurred.
I wish we had more people to test, because I am getting really good results with my list and I was with my old list. You seem to be doing well as well. I don't know if we are just playing better or if it is a great deck yet. It would be nice to see more results from others.
With my current list I have only tested against a RB burn deck ( I have been consistently winning against if u have a half way decent starting hand.) and a BG deck ( i have had a pretty constant win rate against it. My disruption just out does there disruption.)... In the next few days i will be testing again in a few days against RB combo, RWU control, combo elves, milira pod and grixis control.... This Saturday I will be playing in my local shops modern tournament. Where I will be seeing multiple infect builds, and other decks not listed above... Any ideas on side boarding against some of these decks?
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With my current list I have only tested against a RB burn deck ( I have been consistently winning against if u have a half way decent starting hand.) and a BG deck ( i have had a pretty constant win rate against it. My disruption just out does there disruption.)... In the next few days i will be testing again in a few days against RB combo, RWU control, combo elves, milira pod and grixis control.... This Saturday I will be playing in my local shops modern tournament. Where I will be seeing multiple infect builds, and other decks not listed above... Any ideas on side boarding against some of these decks?
I am assuming RB Combo means UR Tempo-Twin? Anyway, I have a list of possible sideboard cards in the OP you can check out. Funeral Charm is really good against infect. Damnation is really good against pod and elves. Grixis Control - be ready to kill wurmcoil engine (victim of night), pithing needle will be good against creeping tar pit and any plainswalkers they may be running - same for RWU control Also, somewhere in your 75 I would find room for either extirpate or surgical extraction - I prefer extirpate personally for split second.
Overall, make sure your discard suite and removal suite are diverse to handle the different decks you expect to see and it looks like it is already. Looking at your list posted above - I would run 23 lands in that build and maybe add 2 damnation mainboard. Something to consider -another card that is really good in a devotion build is Profane command - I have been itching to use this myself!
Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
@atherion, nice list! I don't know how I feel about maindeck drown in sorrow, but the rest of the deck looks pretty sweet. My brief testing with (proxied mind you) devotion was a list very similar. Obviously you could throw in the land stuff if you wanted to buy the expensive lands, but, it looks pretty solid. I don't see why everyone feels the need to cram green in when they are running phyrexian obliterator. It seems half decent without the mana issues. (I understand the strengths it provides, I just love a sweet monoblack list. :P) if you guys are having good luck with Gary, then I am happy! I may have to give him a go eventually.
With my current list I have only tested against a RB burn deck ( I have been consistently winning against if u have a half way decent starting hand.) and a BG deck ( i have had a pretty constant win rate against it. My disruption just out does there disruption.)... In the next few days i will be testing again in a few days against RB combo, RWU control, combo elves, milira pod and grixis control.... This Saturday I will be playing in my local shops modern tournament. Where I will be seeing multiple infect builds, and other decks not listed above... Any ideas on side boarding against some of these decks?
I am assuming RB Combo means UR Tempo-Twin? Anyway, I have a list of possible sideboard cards in the OP you can check out. Funeral Charm is really good against infect. Damnation is really good against pod and elves. Grixis Control - be ready to kill wurmcoil engine (victim of night), pithing needle will be good against creeping tar pit and any plainswalkers they may be running - same for RWU control Also, somewhere in your 75 I would find room for either extirpate or surgical extraction - I prefer extirpate personally for split second.
Overall, make sure your discard suite and removal suite are diverse to handle the different decks you expect to see and it looks like it is already. Looking at your list posted above - I would run 23 lands in that build and maybe add 2 damnation mainboard. Something to consider -another card that is really good in a devotion build is Profane command - I have been itching to use this myself!
I think that he was referring to Griselbrand Reanimator when he said RB Combo.
I would add as many fetchlands (even the budget evolving wilds and terramorphic expanse) to your list as possible, and a 4th viscera seer. I would also skip out on the 2/2 one drop vampires, they don't do anything good enough in modern, I'd also get ride of the hexmages.
I would love to see this deck really take off in Modern, but one thing I'm noticing in all the lists is that basically every single list is running too many discard effects. The pro rule is essentially not to run more than 7 max between main and sideboard. I think Funeral charm is not really good enough for the 75 in general.
I think against the current meta I'd run a playset of wrench mind, plus thoughtseizes or IOK, but no more than six main and a seventh in the side.
I think you end up with too many dead draws late game where it gets grindy, and this deck isn't fast enough to close out the game so that that doesn't happen. you also can't react with that many discard spells at instant speed which so many decks force you to do.
has anyone experimented with mind stab? I think it would be a great early turn play in place of trying to run so many discard effects along with wrench mind.
What do you guys think about some changes to my list. I posted a list on the last page. I can repost if necessary... - 2 bitterblossom, -2grey merchant and - 1 gatekeeper for + 4 Nighthawk and + 1 wrench mind?
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I would love to see this deck really take off in Modern, but one thing I'm noticing in all the lists is that basically every single list is running too many discard effects. The pro rule is essentially not to run more than 7 max between main and sideboard. I think Funeral charm is not really good enough for the 75 in general.
I think against the current meta I'd run a playset of wrench mind, plus thoughtseizes or IOK, but no more than six main and a seventh in the side.
I think you end up with too many dead draws late game where it gets grindy, and this deck isn't fast enough to close out the game so that that doesn't happen. you also can't react with that many discard spells at instant speed which so many decks force you to do.
has anyone experimented with mind stab? I think it would be a great early turn play in place of trying to run so many discard effects along with wrench mind.
Too Many discard effects:
This is not true - tell that to any 8-rack player. While we play no rack effects we intend to control your hand as much as possible. In testing, T1 and T2 IoK or Thoughtseize is far better than wrench mind. This allows us to stick a bob or bitterblossom and run with it. You should try playing the deck this way because it is really good and worth the occasional bad topdeck late game. (by the way I run 8 dedicated discard effects, only one more than the "pro7" - which means squat in this build).
Funeral Charm:
Amazing - while not the best at any one of its options, it is a removal spell and an instant speed discard that destroys topdecks. Funeral Charm is even played in legacy pox decks for the same reason because it is very versatile as a 1cmc spell.
Mindstab:
This is a really terrible card and should not require an explanation. Unless you are locking the opponent out completely you will likely never hit anything relevant with it - they will see it 4 turns in advance!
While I disagree, I urge you to put together a list including your ideas (and post it here) - then take it out and test your claims. We need more brewers and the more you play the more we will all benefit
Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
@ Coldtonight
Hey, I checked out your vampire build - while very cool this is not the gate, even remotely. I have played many vampire builds in the past and found red black to be far superior to mono-B nocturnis builds. I focused on Falkenrath Aristocrat, Bloodghast, and kalastria Highborn. Dark Confidant, although not a vampire won me games as well.
@ The Blooded One
I would keep a gatekeeper personally and then test the switch. Only testing will tell which is better. I personally think bitterblossom is one of the cards we should be building around - not taking out...
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Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Hey, I follow multiple threads about mono black lists and I want to make a good Vampire tribe deck, based on the gate.
I found that gatekeeper of malakir is a very good card and bloodghast and vampire nighthawk are also.
The "maybesideboard" vampire hexmage is then a good mainboard card and all these "bear bodies" are transformed to threats with the Vampire nocturnus
@jwelt I personally love bitterblossom but it seems to not be as good without the amazing equipment... Maybe if we used some sort of buff/equipment. Any ideas? I kinda like rune chanterspike myself. Or basilik collar
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Decks: standard
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Modern
Dredge vine
4 color gifts
Junk midrange
Daga control
Rb burn
Soul sisters
Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
a) Any thoughts on the list? It's a little more devotion centered than it might be but I really thing Erebos does huge work here, and Gary can pull you out of horrible stalemates
b) Was there a reason we weren't running Hero's Downfall? With Bob two might be too many I guess but it feels like it would be nice to have one available?
c) It seems like one of the big weaknesses here is an inability to deal with non-creature permanents, for example I tried this out online and one Ensnaring Bridge basically locked me out. Do we have any ideas for answers to this? I guess the discard sort of helps but sometimes there is more than one thing you "have to" take.
I like your list a lot but I see a couple possible problems. I encourage you to test your build out first, but I would personally change up your creature kill cards. Hero's downfall is a great card but expensive for this deck (we already have a rather clogged 3cmc slot which is why generally the rest of us don't run it). Also, I have not tested bone splinters, but I imagine funeral charm will do more for you. I would just use more victim of night or bile blight instead of downfall, and maybe use downfall in the board. I would also pick either gray merchant or cauldron and switch it for a 23rd land (keeping gray) or another bob (keeping cauldron).
Our two biggest weaknesses are probably leyline of sanctity and ensnaring bridge. Historically black decks have trouble with enchantments and artifacts. Most we can play around (including leyline) but bridge is rough. I have not come across this yet in my meta but online I would imagine you could see it more frequently. Ratchet bomb is an option and so is extirpate following discard. I would imagine that you choose ensnaring bridge any time you have the option to discard it. I think we need to pool our brewing powers to overcome this one because I am sure there are other answers I am not thinking of. You can also -6 lily to get it, but that's hopeful.
A while back I posted a bg list just for this reason that might be also worth a shot if you update it.
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Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
I honestly think that we would have to splash for artifact/enchantment removal if it were to become too serious. After many years of playing mbc, the rack, pox, and the gate, this is my experience unfortunately. We pretty much just have to hope we discard it before they play it, or we just go swinging with faeries while Percy stays back and protects home. Leyline is luckily manageable if can land a Percy and beat with it.
I wanted to test smallpox so I played a couple matches against melira pod and uw draw go. Threw in a couple bloodghasts and grafted wargear and oh my... Even though it was just pretty much my old deck it was so crazy. I wish I could have tested more because I clearly got a sample size too small. Against melira in game one, he played land and birds, I then turn two smallpoxed all over his board, clearing his board. His second land was a gavony which screamed a two land hand. He never recovered. Against uw control, he smoked me game one, but game two he turn one played a colonnade and immediately regretted it. Smallpox turn two got him hard along side me grabbing his angel t3 (over a remand, supreme verdict, path and some others which I planned to reap later.) I kind of am still on the fence about GQ vs mutavault and these games only made it harder. both have performed so well for me that I honestly think either might just be fine unless your meta leans completely towards one style of deck. My meta has become pretty diverse despite all the netdeckers copying and pasting the melira pod vs RWU pro tour finals decks.
I also disagree with the 7 rule for this deck. It tends to function similar to 8rack, just our rack is a 6/6 flying trampler or a 5/5 that destroys everything. We want to get them into top deck mode, with a clear board. Jund etc, which function on the 7rule, want to use those cards to establish an advantage on board and in hand, then just coast off their overly efficient creatures. They run as a midrange, whereas we can tend to run as control.
Well having tested the deck a bit I have a couple of conclusions some of which may be very obvious:
1) It's very hard to win without a Bob/Erebos/Phyrexian arena/BB which makes aggro a right pain because you have quite a low life total quite fast
2) It's surprisingly easy to be mana skrewed (at least in my build)
3) One copy of Downfall still seems pretty good as otherwise some planeswalkers are very hard to beat (see almost all Jaces)
4) Bone Splinters is great, with BB it becomes pay 1 mana and 1 life to kill something. It hits Goyf which is nice and also the range of big dudes in Modern is quite scary so I'm liking that it is unconditional, still haven't tried charm yet.
I am really happy you are having a good experience with the deck - I too will try a devotion build eventually. Ghost quarter solves many problems you mentioned against affinity, menfolk, and tron - I would add 4 and 3 urborg personally.
On the leylines and bridge. Your experience is what I would have predicted. I am not sure the issues we could be bringing up ( life from fetches and shocks) is worth it. These cards can be played around or dealt with and may not be worth splashing green or white. I will also be working on a green splash anyway however...
Can you put up a detailed post about your 8 rack matchup? ( sideboard, decisions, more details on bridge)
Thanks!
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Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Bloodchief might be an answer for ensnaring bridge and leyline. Not to mention it is great against burn decks, living end, and much more. So many decks will take the two damage from shocks getting us "free counters."
Anyone else have thoughts on the black ascension?
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Bloodchief might be an answer for ensnaring bridge and leyline. Not to mention it is great against burn decks, living end, and much more. So many decks will take the two damage from shocks getting us "free counters."
Anyone else have thoughts on the black ascension?
I love Bloodchief Ascension. Good luck in trying it out. I used it in Mill to decent success, and if it can be turned on there, it certainly can be in here.
Yeah I fear the black ascension may be too slow, but I think it is worth a shot. Its probably much better in the type of build you mentioned (which I happen to be brewing as well). Unfortunately I wont be able to test again for another 2 weeks - spring break!
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Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
The only issue with Your argument is that it isn't so cut and dry. I don't have much time to respond, and I apologize for what may seem poorly explained. Obviously top decking the bigger man lands is better, but that is like saying top decking baneslayer is better than a birds of paradise. While true, the cards serve different purposes. Mutavault is for hitting in the little bits that decks like, 8-rack monoblack control and us, love. Not to mention, activation costs make it much more efficient, and easy to use, should our opponent let their defenses down, without tapping out to do so (colonnade's activation cost). Thoughtseize and swinging for two for example. Sure we have a huge fatty to swing games, but he doesn't come out every game and having incremental damage is key in those.
Against heavy control where colonnade is the primary beats, victim of night hits just as well, our bitterblossoms chump (I will chump a 4/4 yes please) Percy is fat enough to defend, and sb cards like pithing needle if need be. I haven't really ever been afraid of manlands, but I have had games where slow trickle of burn or other small amounts of damage, like 8-rack or zoo weenies, have gotten me. I am not saying that GQ is worse by any means, I honestly love the thing, I am just saying that it isn't as cut and dry as "if they are playing man-lands, then ghost quarter is better" (not saying that is what you are saying, just love using hyperbole) I don't think that having mutavault means we are a race deck, often times we trickle damage through using he land, but we are on the beat down in many matchups.
Another thing is, I only have 10 maindeck discard, and fewer spot removal. whereas this is a lot, I rarely have complete control over their hand, but rather take the best parts of it. That said, losing a mana race (dropping behind due to smallpox and GQ) can feel bad when they top deck wormcoil or some other relevant threat while I have a Percy in hand. Bitterblossom is not nearly as strong holding them at bay, in my experience as yours. (Granted I do not play bad moon)
Sorry this was hastily written so if anything is untrue or weak I apologize.
Tl;dr: calling the GRIZZLY BEAR sized land a "weak 2/2 beater" is a little unfair and not really descriptive of the purpose it serves.
Underworld connections might be better as phyrexian arena's and I would even consider vampire nighthawk in your build as he can be removal, and count towards your devotion if you attack their hand the right way. I might move surgical to the sideboard though.
N/A
Modern
Dredge vine
4 color gifts
Junk midrange
Daga control
Rb burn
Soul sisters
Legacy
The gate
Zombie bombardment
Burn
The clause at the end of my analysis says that each situation is different, and overall Mutavault is about as good as ghost quarter. I answered the questions I posed for my specific build. For your build and your meta, Mutavault may be the best option. It's a great card, but still I prefer Ghost quarter for the control ability in key matchups I see often enough. The whole point of the post is to not make blanket statements about either card but rather to do a meta analysis to help people make the decision for their situation - which is not cut and dry if you get what I mean.
In my particular build the opponent never gets to cast wurmcoil engine. The one game I saw one cast against me in a tron matchup, I beat him to death with flying creatures the very next turn.
Also, when I say that mutavault is worse than any other manland in modern when topdecking I am not referring to topdecking the manland. Most decks that run them have multiple copies and likely already have one in play. If they topdeck more - it gets even worse.
After looking at my own analysis and reading all of your posts, I feel Mutavault is a very good choice for your deck and I look forward to some tournament results! It is just not the choice for me.
All in all, after the posts I am starting to really see a trend developing with the lists in our brewing community - a more aggressive variant and a more control variant. Eventually we will need to demarcate the two and write up the differences and card choices appropriate to each based on our testing (sort of like how the 8-rack thread has "proactive" and "reactive" lists separated).
As far as devotion builds go I would say the jury is still out on them. Many of them look like good decks, but the lines between the gate, mono black control, and mono black devotion have been heavily blurred. I think that decks running Gray Merchant of Asphodel are a different deck, but we shall see how they develop. I cannot really comment on these builds since I have never tested a deck that is similar.
The following is the core of the gate and decks that don't include any of these are probably not "the gate" if you know what I mean:
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
@jwelt, oh I know what you are saying. Don't interpret my devil's advocate for genuine argument, I just always like to hash out every card decision to best develop decks to their potential. I literally agree with everything you said, I just wanted to put in some more cents for mutavault. I definitely agree that this deck has two forms and I do agree in aggro and control as the options. I don't think I understand your comment about topdecking manlands. I would think that top decking a mutavault with one in play, seems pretty good compared to say raging ravine in the same situation. You can easily activate both and swing for four. Obviously neither is ideal late game, but it is essentially the equivalent (if not better for the potential damage) of drawing lands late game which is unavoidable.
P.s. I tested single preboard matches against pod, twin, and some weird unearth deck today, mutavault was a champ against twin and better than good against pod, didn't draw it against the unearth deck. Funny enough, the unearth deck was the one I lost to (though this had nothing to do with mutavault). These are obviously matchups where mutavault is better though so it isn't evidence of mutavault's inclusion being successful. I still need to test against the matchups where GQ shines, to see how much hit I took in control power. Grey merchant is a tricky card. Hard to analyze, but yes the lines are heavily blurred.
I wish we had more people to test, because I am getting really good results with my list and I was with my old list. You seem to be doing well as well. I don't know if we are just playing better or if it is a great deck yet. It would be nice to see more results from others.
N/A
Modern
Dredge vine
4 color gifts
Junk midrange
Daga control
Rb burn
Soul sisters
Legacy
The gate
Zombie bombardment
Burn
I am assuming RB Combo means UR Tempo-Twin? Anyway, I have a list of possible sideboard cards in the OP you can check out. Funeral Charm is really good against infect. Damnation is really good against pod and elves. Grixis Control - be ready to kill wurmcoil engine (victim of night), pithing needle will be good against creeping tar pit and any plainswalkers they may be running - same for RWU control Also, somewhere in your 75 I would find room for either extirpate or surgical extraction - I prefer extirpate personally for split second.
Overall, make sure your discard suite and removal suite are diverse to handle the different decks you expect to see and it looks like it is already. Looking at your list posted above - I would run 23 lands in that build and maybe add 2 damnation mainboard. Something to consider -another card that is really good in a devotion build is Profane command - I have been itching to use this myself!
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
I think that he was referring to Griselbrand Reanimator when he said RB Combo.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I think against the current meta I'd run a playset of wrench mind, plus thoughtseizes or IOK, but no more than six main and a seventh in the side.
I think you end up with too many dead draws late game where it gets grindy, and this deck isn't fast enough to close out the game so that that doesn't happen. you also can't react with that many discard spells at instant speed which so many decks force you to do.
has anyone experimented with mind stab? I think it would be a great early turn play in place of trying to run so many discard effects along with wrench mind.
N/A
Modern
Dredge vine
4 color gifts
Junk midrange
Daga control
Rb burn
Soul sisters
Legacy
The gate
Zombie bombardment
Burn
Too Many discard effects:
This is not true - tell that to any 8-rack player. While we play no rack effects we intend to control your hand as much as possible. In testing, T1 and T2 IoK or Thoughtseize is far better than wrench mind. This allows us to stick a bob or bitterblossom and run with it. You should try playing the deck this way because it is really good and worth the occasional bad topdeck late game. (by the way I run 8 dedicated discard effects, only one more than the "pro7" - which means squat in this build).
Funeral Charm:
Amazing - while not the best at any one of its options, it is a removal spell and an instant speed discard that destroys topdecks. Funeral Charm is even played in legacy pox decks for the same reason because it is very versatile as a 1cmc spell.
Mindstab:
This is a really terrible card and should not require an explanation. Unless you are locking the opponent out completely you will likely never hit anything relevant with it - they will see it 4 turns in advance!
While I disagree, I urge you to put together a list including your ideas (and post it here) - then take it out and test your claims. We need more brewers and the more you play the more we will all benefit
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
Hey, I checked out your vampire build - while very cool this is not the gate, even remotely. I have played many vampire builds in the past and found red black to be far superior to mono-B nocturnis builds. I focused on Falkenrath Aristocrat, Bloodghast, and kalastria Highborn. Dark Confidant, although not a vampire won me games as well.
@ The Blooded One
I would keep a gatekeeper personally and then test the switch. Only testing will tell which is better. I personally think bitterblossom is one of the cards we should be building around - not taking out...
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
I'd replace Vampire Hexmage with either Vampire Lacerator or Guul Draz Vampire.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
N/A
Modern
Dredge vine
4 color gifts
Junk midrange
Daga control
Rb burn
Soul sisters
Legacy
The gate
Zombie bombardment
Burn
Grafted wargear
Or bad moon <-- my favorite
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
3x Dark Confidant
1x Erebos, God of the Dead
4x Bitterblossom
1x Phyrexian Arena
3x Liliana of the Veil
Kills/Discard
3x Gatekeeper of Malakir
2x Hero's Downfall
2x Victim of Night
2x Bone Splinters
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Thoughtseize
2x Abyssal Persecutor
3x Vampire Nighthawk
2x Bad Moon
Odd Bits
1x Gray Merchant of Asphodel
1x Bubbling Cauldron
Lands
4x Ghost Quarter
1x Miren, the Moaning Well
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
14x Swamp
2x Pithing Needle
2x Torpor Orb
2x Bile Blight
4x Extirpate
2x Damnation
3x Deathmark
So My questions then are...
a) Any thoughts on the list? It's a little more devotion centered than it might be but I really thing Erebos does huge work here, and Gary can pull you out of horrible stalemates
b) Was there a reason we weren't running Hero's Downfall? With Bob two might be too many I guess but it feels like it would be nice to have one available?
c) It seems like one of the big weaknesses here is an inability to deal with non-creature permanents, for example I tried this out online and one Ensnaring Bridge basically locked me out. Do we have any ideas for answers to this? I guess the discard sort of helps but sometimes there is more than one thing you "have to" take.
I like your list a lot but I see a couple possible problems. I encourage you to test your build out first, but I would personally change up your creature kill cards. Hero's downfall is a great card but expensive for this deck (we already have a rather clogged 3cmc slot which is why generally the rest of us don't run it). Also, I have not tested bone splinters, but I imagine funeral charm will do more for you. I would just use more victim of night or bile blight instead of downfall, and maybe use downfall in the board. I would also pick either gray merchant or cauldron and switch it for a 23rd land (keeping gray) or another bob (keeping cauldron).
Our two biggest weaknesses are probably leyline of sanctity and ensnaring bridge. Historically black decks have trouble with enchantments and artifacts. Most we can play around (including leyline) but bridge is rough. I have not come across this yet in my meta but online I would imagine you could see it more frequently. Ratchet bomb is an option and so is extirpate following discard. I would imagine that you choose ensnaring bridge any time you have the option to discard it. I think we need to pool our brewing powers to overcome this one because I am sure there are other answers I am not thinking of. You can also -6 lily to get it, but that's hopeful.
A while back I posted a bg list just for this reason that might be also worth a shot if you update it.
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
I wanted to test smallpox so I played a couple matches against melira pod and uw draw go. Threw in a couple bloodghasts and grafted wargear and oh my... Even though it was just pretty much my old deck it was so crazy. I wish I could have tested more because I clearly got a sample size too small. Against melira in game one, he played land and birds, I then turn two smallpoxed all over his board, clearing his board. His second land was a gavony which screamed a two land hand. He never recovered. Against uw control, he smoked me game one, but game two he turn one played a colonnade and immediately regretted it. Smallpox turn two got him hard along side me grabbing his angel t3 (over a remand, supreme verdict, path and some others which I planned to reap later.) I kind of am still on the fence about GQ vs mutavault and these games only made it harder. both have performed so well for me that I honestly think either might just be fine unless your meta leans completely towards one style of deck. My meta has become pretty diverse despite all the netdeckers copying and pasting the melira pod vs RWU pro tour finals decks.
I also disagree with the 7 rule for this deck. It tends to function similar to 8rack, just our rack is a 6/6 flying trampler or a 5/5 that destroys everything. We want to get them into top deck mode, with a clear board. Jund etc, which function on the 7rule, want to use those cards to establish an advantage on board and in hand, then just coast off their overly efficient creatures. They run as a midrange, whereas we can tend to run as control.
1) It's very hard to win without a Bob/Erebos/Phyrexian arena/BB which makes aggro a right pain because you have quite a low life total quite fast
2) It's surprisingly easy to be mana skrewed (at least in my build)
3) One copy of Downfall still seems pretty good as otherwise some planeswalkers are very hard to beat (see almost all Jaces)
4) Bone Splinters is great, with BB it becomes pay 1 mana and 1 life to kill something. It hits Goyf which is nice and also the range of big dudes in Modern is quite scary so I'm liking that it is unconditional, still haven't tried charm yet.
On the leylines and bridge. Your experience is what I would have predicted. I am not sure the issues we could be bringing up ( life from fetches and shocks) is worth it. These cards can be played around or dealt with and may not be worth splashing green or white. I will also be working on a green splash anyway however...
Can you put up a detailed post about your 8 rack matchup? ( sideboard, decisions, more details on bridge)
Thanks!
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
Bloodchief might be an answer for ensnaring bridge and leyline. Not to mention it is great against burn decks, living end, and much more. So many decks will take the two damage from shocks getting us "free counters."
Anyone else have thoughts on the black ascension?
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
I love Bloodchief Ascension. Good luck in trying it out. I used it in Mill to decent success, and if it can be turned on there, it certainly can be in here.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague