Anyway, after building literally hundreds of lists (some of my very early attempts can be seen deep in this thread somewhere) and playing loads of solitaire, free games and 2-mans on MTGO, I decided to take my current list (which I have been honing for a while now)for a run in the casual modern league.
Finished the league 4-1. The list and the win image is below.
I've never played a Belcher deck before but after seeing your list and rundown I decided to give it a whirl.
Before I tried out a few games I just assumed that hitting land drops/getting mana was going to be tough with only 7 Forests in the whole deck but, man, it is pretty damn consistent. Only one time (that I can remember) did I have to mulligan into oblivion. Color me impressed.
I also like how the deck goes into 'beatdown mode' after sideboarding, hoping to take advantage of the opponent likely going into the next game a bit lighter on removal spells.
Basically it seems to be running on the pillowfort/slightly controlling plan until it can set up Belcher+Endless Horizons, while also using Elspeth/Luminarch Ascension as an alternative wincon.
Just goes to show that the Japanese really aren't afraid at all of trying totally-out-of-the-blue jank while we in the west are busy refining the well trodden path
I also love the list because it's dirt cheap so I can easily "invest" in actually building it in paper without any potential regret.
Round 1: Bogles, 2-1
Turn 3 kill in game 1 was easy, game 2 double Leyline kept my Belchers dead and I lost to a huge first striking Gladecover Scout killing my Wormcoils, game 3 I Nature's Claim the Leyline and Belch for the win.
Round 2: 4 Colour TitanShift, 1-2
Another speedy game 1 victory, games 2 and three my Belchers all get Slaughter Gamesed and I die to Scapeshift.
Round 3: UW Control, 2-1
Game 1 I get turn 2 Blood Moon on the play and win easily, game 2 he plays Runed Halo and kills all my other threats, game 3 I have the Nature's Claim for his halo and win quickly.
Round 4: UW Tron, 2-1
Yet another easy game 1 helped by Blood Moon, game 2 goes really long and he manages to eventually kill with Iona me after I'd had two activation of Belcher hitting a land as my top card, game 3 I just win really quickly (which is just as well, we only had 5 minutes to play it!)
All in all the deck felt way better than I remembered! Possibly the meta is just more friendly for us right now? Blood Moon and Defense Grid were both MVPs in the control matchups, and I think i got a little unlucky against Scapeshift.
I dont have a sideboard yet. And i know, i will change Llanowar Elves for Birds of Paradise soon.
Im using Platinum Emperion because i want a chance of not being dead by a failed Madcap Experiment search. If he appears im my hand, i should cast it, so i put one more land in the deck. Im using Mountain over Stomping Ground because in this build i have 21 interactions with basic lands, while only 12 (16 if you count Caravan Vigil morbid effect) interactions with another lands.
What do you guys think about this build? Its safe to use?
I think it is similar to the list that admurk posted on the previous page. I actually am transitioning to that list, as it has been more consistent than the RG build we are using.
Magic is just applied math. Check out my Math Megathread and feel free to PM me questions!
I don't care if you're having fun, as long as I'm having fun. ~Bryant Cook
Meta discussion is not considered out of game. Boxing is about punching people in the face.
Punching your opponent in the face outside the ring is still considered assault. ~KamikazeArchon
Mono G feels much faster and consistent, as the deck thinning process the mono G list uses (mostly) puts the lands directly onto the battlefiled, so less turns casting and waiting to activate Belcher. Also, the post-board also feels much better suited for our bad matchups (especially Burn and Jund), as the deck becomes a Stompy kind of deck with the immediate kill afterwards.
Fog cards (Haze of Pollen might be better due to cycling), I have tried them when I used the UG shell, so I'm comfortable using it here. It's the cushion that gives the list a way to be somewhat all-out before the kill turn.
We should not disregard the utility RG build provides us (I will mostly miss Firespout and SSG), but I think for now, I'll go with the mono build.
With all the Ixalan spoilers out, what cards do you guys plan to test? Personally, I'd want to run a number of Ranging Raptors. It chumps, it gets a land. They burn it / path it, it gets a land. It dodges vanilla Fatal Push. Maybe some other things I can't think of atm haha! Right now I'm using the RG version but the Mono-G one looks nice.
Interesting lists. The Japanese UW seems like a less all in, but interesting 2 piece combo version compared to these deck thinning ramp versions.
I recently played my own super different version to a perfect record which may warrant a different thread, but I sourced a strong amount of inspiration from here, so I wanted to post about it.
List here:
How to play:
1.Tutor for your 4 lands.
2.Once you have 4 lands out of your deck, cast belcher, Balustrade spy, or Undercity informer. Target yourself with the mill.
3.Pass.
4a. If you cast belcher, untap and activate for the win next turn.
4b. If you cast Balustrade spy, or Undercity informer, legacy weapon triggers and goes on top of your deck.
5b. If legacy weapon, Azami, Angel of Glory's rise, Lab Maniac, or unburial rites are in your hand during your upkeep, activate phantasmagorian to discard them for free.
6b. Draw Legacy weapon. (So you dont mill)
7b. Tap out to flashback unburial rites targeting angel of glory's rise. Angel trigger returns azami and lab maniac.
8b. Tap azami and/or lab maniac to draw a card and win.
Wow this is super creative! Do you think we could combine our lists somehow? We should work on this! Definitely going to give it a try. It's a lot like doomsday in legacy.
True. Maybe I'll try and make it like legacy oops all spells, where main board I run my version, and post board I side out the combo and play your version. It dodges the graveyard hate.
I wanted to ask, what is your 7 card pile? If your pile goes like "5 mana sources, belcher, x) Then I propose that x is pact of negation. Also, assuming a list combined COULD exist, the pile could be "red ramp x4, manamorphose (bw), Balustrade, Infernal plunge, Pact of Negation" (8 mana to combo off in 1 turn, and Manamorphose allows for an 8 card pile, as it is a free cantrip)
Why would this line be useful? Beats leyline of Sanctity! It's possible your list could find space for Angel, Azami, Maniac, Balustrade, Manamorphose, infernal plunge, rites? Maybe not, but since you have recross, you only need 1 spy, you don't need legacy weapon (since you win in 1 turn), and you dont need phantasmagorian (since reforge will discard your hand).
May I suggest adding 3-4 Lotus Bloom to the 4-land list. Makes mulligan less likely (initial mana source, albeit delayed and not thinning the deck, but the purpose is to lessen the mulligan numbers) plus the explosiveness factor wherein you can cast your Belcher and activate it at the same time on turn 4 (when all your lands are already out of the deck).
Have been doing extensive testing. The list I originally posted doesn't go off soon enough but does always have a win condition because we have 12.
I tried optimizing the recross combo list, and it wins very consistently on turn 4 with counter back up in my updated version, but it does sometimes have problems getting to a win con by turn 4, but is ultimately better. I tried running 2 abundance and street wraiths to get turn 4 wins, (using street wraith/faithless to draw reforge after we rearranged our deck during draw step) but it was inconsistent.
I tried lotus bloom, but since were winning consistently on turn 4 anyway, it didnt add any value to the recross list. For the Mill list, I can imagine it speeding up the combo by a turn, but it requires 4th mana to speed up the creature kills. (4 for balustrade 4 for unburial. 4 lands + lotusbloom= 7) Do some gold fishing with this list and I think you will be surprised at how consistent it is.
BTW, the sideboard has tech to beat leyline with the following pile = (spoils, angels grace, mana morphose , 3 rituals/guides, pact of negation. Mana morphose for black white (for spoils grace) and draw into all your street wraiths but 1 (which is on the bottom) The last street wraith (non-bottomed) draws you lab maniac. then you spoils/grace naming your last street wraith. mill your deck and draw wraith, 3 rituals+ second manamorphose to cast maniac, then use the last wraith to win. That being said, it might be better to just have a natures claim manamorphose pile for beating leyline haha.
TLDR pile:
reforge into=>
spoils
angels grace
manamorphose
guide
guide
guide/ritual
Pact of negation
street wraith (total left in deck minus 1, which is at the bottom)
street wraith
street wraith
manamorphose
lab maniac
(rest of cards)
street wraith
Nice! This list is considerably better: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/recross-belcher-speed-v2/
Cut a land, added a ton of rituals, and wild cantor for turn 1 consistency. As somebody commented on the original list, it has some difficult decision making, but stats based plays are pretty easy.
Turn 3 wins: 19
Turn 4 wins: 49
Turn 5 wins 18
Losses due to mulligan, or winning turn 6+: 14
Good to hear! The 3 land list is a leaner and faster variant of your version, but it is more fragile as well. There is a land in the SB specifically to fight against ghost quarters! Yes, there is turn 1 inconsistencies a little, but not as much as I expected. Stats show most goldfish fails are due to never drawing a win con over mulling too much. On the play, its a much better deck because cantor hands arent going to be thoughtseized. On the draw, you are correct that those hands are much riskier.
Whats the disadvantage of having a mountain?
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I've never played a Belcher deck before but after seeing your list and rundown I decided to give it a whirl.
Before I tried out a few games I just assumed that hitting land drops/getting mana was going to be tough with only 7 Forests in the whole deck but, man, it is pretty damn consistent. Only one time (that I can remember) did I have to mulligan into oblivion. Color me impressed.
I also like how the deck goes into 'beatdown mode' after sideboarding, hoping to take advantage of the opponent likely going into the next game a bit lighter on removal spells.
I'm starting to agree with this sentiment
Would that have a place in this thread or is it strictly green based decks?
Hareruya Weekday Modern Cup (3-0)Magic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
3 Secure the Wastes
2 Detention Sphere
4 Journey to Nowhere
4 Spreading Seas
1 Luminarch Ascension
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Sphere of Safety
4 Endless Horizons
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2 Azorius Signet
4 Talisman of Progress
4 Irrigated Farmland
4 Prairie Stream
12 Plains
1 Consulate Crackdown
2 Delay
1 Echoing Truth
2 Gideon's Intervention
3 Mana Tithe
1 Monastery Siege
1 Open the Vaults
1 Porphyry Nodes
2 Wrath of God
Basically it seems to be running on the pillowfort/slightly controlling plan until it can set up Belcher+Endless Horizons, while also using Elspeth/Luminarch Ascension as an alternative wincon.
I also love the list because it's dirt cheap so I can easily "invest" in actually building it in paper without any potential regret.
Round 1: Bogles, 2-1
Turn 3 kill in game 1 was easy, game 2 double Leyline kept my Belchers dead and I lost to a huge first striking Gladecover Scout killing my Wormcoils, game 3 I Nature's Claim the Leyline and Belch for the win.
Round 2: 4 Colour TitanShift, 1-2
Another speedy game 1 victory, games 2 and three my Belchers all get Slaughter Gamesed and I die to Scapeshift.
Round 3: UW Control, 2-1
Game 1 I get turn 2 Blood Moon on the play and win easily, game 2 he plays Runed Halo and kills all my other threats, game 3 I have the Nature's Claim for his halo and win quickly.
Round 4: UW Tron, 2-1
Yet another easy game 1 helped by Blood Moon, game 2 goes really long and he manages to eventually kill with Iona me after I'd had two activation of Belcher hitting a land as my top card, game 3 I just win really quickly (which is just as well, we only had 5 minutes to play it!)
All in all the deck felt way better than I remembered! Possibly the meta is just more friendly for us right now? Blood Moon and Defense Grid were both MVPs in the control matchups, and I think i got a little unlucky against Scapeshift.
Given that, what's the full list (+sideboard) you used for this FNM?
EDH DECKS
[to be updated
OTHER DECKS
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Sakura-Tribe Elder
4x Wall of Roots
4x Simian Spirit Guide
3x Wurmcoil Engine
4x Chancellor of the Tangle
Spells
4x Ancient Stirrings
4x Caravan Vigil
4x Safewright Quest
4x Traverse the Ulvenwald
4x Utopia Sprawl
3x Haze of Pollen
2x Blood Moon
1x Recross the Paths
4x Goblin Charbelcher
6 Forest
1 Stomping Ground
1x Grafdigger's Cage
3x Nature's Claim
1x Pithing Needle
2x Defense Grid
1x Heroic Intervention
1x Choke
2x Firespout
3x Kitchen Finks
1x Fracturing Gust
Haze of Pollen was basically my flex spot, I wasn't amazingly impressed with it, but it was alright...
You guys got a post on mtgtop8!
4x Chancellor of the Tangle
4x Sakura-Tribe Elder
4x Llanowar Elves
4x Arbor Elf
Win: 8
3x Platinum Emperion
1x Gaea's Revenge
4x Goblin Charbelcher
4x Safewright Quest
4x Nissa's Pilgrimage
1x Lay of the Land
4x Caravan Vigil
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Ancient Stirrings
3x Madcap Experiment
4x Recross the Paths
Lands: 8
7x Forest
1x Mountain
I dont have a sideboard yet. And i know, i will change Llanowar Elves for Birds of Paradise soon.
Im using Platinum Emperion because i want a chance of not being dead by a failed Madcap Experiment search. If he appears im my hand, i should cast it, so i put one more land in the deck. Im using Mountain over Stomping Ground because in this build i have 21 interactions with basic lands, while only 12 (16 if you count Caravan Vigil morbid effect) interactions with another lands.
What do you guys think about this build? Its safe to use?
RGForest BelcherRG
WUBRGBring to BalanceWUBRG
Commander Decks:
WUBSharuum the HegemonWUB
WUBRGScion of the Ur-DragonWUBRG
UBDralnu, Lich LordUB
UBRNekusar, the MindrazerUBR
But seriously. Are you thinking the mono-Green feels better currently? Does it just handle aggro better because of Fog?
Do you miss Blood Moon? Do you miss SSG?
Red Deck Wins R
Dredge U R B G
Dredge W U R B G / Belcher<3
Dredge W U R B G
Dredge B G - What is "competitive EDH"?
Magic is just applied math. Check out my Math Megathread and feel free to PM me questions!
I don't care if you're having fun, as long as I'm having fun. ~Bryant Cook
Meta discussion is not considered out of game. Boxing is about punching people in the face.
Punching your opponent in the face outside the ring is still considered assault. ~KamikazeArchon
Mono G feels much faster and consistent, as the deck thinning process the mono G list uses (mostly) puts the lands directly onto the battlefiled, so less turns casting and waiting to activate Belcher. Also, the post-board also feels much better suited for our bad matchups (especially Burn and Jund), as the deck becomes a Stompy kind of deck with the immediate kill afterwards.
Fog cards (Haze of Pollen might be better due to cycling), I have tried them when I used the UG shell, so I'm comfortable using it here. It's the cushion that gives the list a way to be somewhat all-out before the kill turn.
We should not disregard the utility RG build provides us (I will mostly miss Firespout and SSG), but I think for now, I'll go with the mono build.
RGForest BelcherRG
WUBRGBring to BalanceWUBRG
Commander Decks:
WUBSharuum the HegemonWUB
WUBRGScion of the Ur-DragonWUBRG
UBDralnu, Lich LordUB
UBRNekusar, the MindrazerUBR
Active thread contributor of Jeskai Prowess Tempo
6 Forest
1 Stomping Ground
4 Chancellor of the Tangle
Ramp:
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wall of Roots
4 Caravan Vigil
4 Safewright Quest
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
Ramp & Land Thinning:
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Harrow
1 Recross the Paths
4 Goblin Charbelcher
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Batterskull
Utility:
1 Manamorphose
2 Nourishing Shoal
2 Firespout
4 Blood Moon
I've been following the deck (and this forum) for nearly 3 years now, and I finally decided to post my decklist here. What do you think?
EDH DECKS
[to be updated
OTHER DECKS
I recently played my own super different version to a perfect record which may warrant a different thread, but I sourced a strong amount of inspiration from here, so I wanted to post about it.
List here:
1x Azami, Lady of Scrolls
4x Balustrade Spy
4x Chancellor of the Tangle
1x Laboratory Maniac
2x Phantasmagorian
4x Sakura-Tribe Elder
2x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Undercity Informer
4x Attune with Aether
4x Caravan Vigil
4x Safewright Quest
4x Search for Tomorrow
4x Traverse the Ulvenwald
1x Unburial Rites
4x Goblin Charbelcher
1x Legacy Weapon
4x Renegade Map
3x Wanderer's Twig
2x Forest
1x Plains
1x Swamp
How to play:
1.Tutor for your 4 lands.
2.Once you have 4 lands out of your deck, cast belcher, Balustrade spy, or Undercity informer. Target yourself with the mill.
3.Pass.
4a. If you cast belcher, untap and activate for the win next turn.
4b. If you cast Balustrade spy, or Undercity informer, legacy weapon triggers and goes on top of your deck.
5b. If legacy weapon, Azami, Angel of Glory's rise, Lab Maniac, or unburial rites are in your hand during your upkeep, activate phantasmagorian to discard them for free.
6b. Draw Legacy weapon. (So you dont mill)
7b. Tap out to flashback unburial rites targeting angel of glory's rise. Angel trigger returns azami and lab maniac.
8b. Tap azami and/or lab maniac to draw a card and win.
I wanted to ask, what is your 7 card pile? If your pile goes like "5 mana sources, belcher, x) Then I propose that x is pact of negation. Also, assuming a list combined COULD exist, the pile could be "red ramp x4, manamorphose (bw), Balustrade, Infernal plunge, Pact of Negation" (8 mana to combo off in 1 turn, and Manamorphose allows for an 8 card pile, as it is a free cantrip)
Why would this line be useful? Beats leyline of Sanctity! It's possible your list could find space for Angel, Azami, Maniac, Balustrade, Manamorphose, infernal plunge, rites? Maybe not, but since you have recross, you only need 1 spy, you don't need legacy weapon (since you win in 1 turn), and you dont need phantasmagorian (since reforge will discard your hand).
Replacement for Legacy Weapon can be Darksteel Colossus.
RGForest BelcherRG
WUBRGBring to BalanceWUBRG
Commander Decks:
WUBSharuum the HegemonWUB
WUBRGScion of the Ur-DragonWUBRG
UBDralnu, Lich LordUB
UBRNekusar, the MindrazerUBR
I tried optimizing the recross combo list, and it wins very consistently on turn 4 with counter back up in my updated version, but it does sometimes have problems getting to a win con by turn 4, but is ultimately better. I tried running 2 abundance and street wraiths to get turn 4 wins, (using street wraith/faithless to draw reforge after we rearranged our deck during draw step) but it was inconsistent.
I tried lotus bloom, but since were winning consistently on turn 4 anyway, it didnt add any value to the recross list. For the Mill list, I can imagine it speeding up the combo by a turn, but it requires 4th mana to speed up the creature kills. (4 for balustrade 4 for unburial. 4 lands + lotusbloom= 7) Do some gold fishing with this list and I think you will be surprised at how consistent it is.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/14-10-17-belcher-test/
BTW, the sideboard has tech to beat leyline with the following pile = (spoils, angels grace, mana morphose , 3 rituals/guides, pact of negation. Mana morphose for black white (for spoils grace) and draw into all your street wraiths but 1 (which is on the bottom) The last street wraith (non-bottomed) draws you lab maniac. then you spoils/grace naming your last street wraith. mill your deck and draw wraith, 3 rituals+ second manamorphose to cast maniac, then use the last wraith to win. That being said, it might be better to just have a natures claim manamorphose pile for beating leyline haha.
TLDR pile:
reforge into=>
spoils
angels grace
manamorphose
guide
guide
guide/ritual
Pact of negation
street wraith (total left in deck minus 1, which is at the bottom)
street wraith
street wraith
manamorphose
lab maniac
(rest of cards)
street wraith
Cut a land, added a ton of rituals, and wild cantor for turn 1 consistency. As somebody commented on the original list, it has some difficult decision making, but stats based plays are pretty easy.
Turn 3 wins: 19
Turn 4 wins: 49
Turn 5 wins 18
Losses due to mulligan, or winning turn 6+: 14
Good to hear! The 3 land list is a leaner and faster variant of your version, but it is more fragile as well. There is a land in the SB specifically to fight against ghost quarters! Yes, there is turn 1 inconsistencies a little, but not as much as I expected. Stats show most goldfish fails are due to never drawing a win con over mulling too much. On the play, its a much better deck because cantor hands arent going to be thoughtseized. On the draw, you are correct that those hands are much riskier.
Whats the disadvantage of having a mountain?