What if we take the middle-of-the-road list and cut out Gitaxian Probe entirely? We could use the extra room to main deck 2-3 Aven Mindcensor (since this deck is essentially a tempo list as it is) and maybe a third Snapcaster.
On the matter of Eiganjo Castle: it's usable in very few situations. These include protecting Vendilion Clique from Pyroclasm or Tarfire, protecting Geist from Pyroclasm or Anger of the Gods (unlikely to be sided against us), and protecting Zur from some unlikely set of removal totaling to 4 or 5 (but not 6). in other situations, it's worse than a plains.
We ideally want to hit T1 Discard into T2 Remand or Meddling Mage, so maybe cut it for a shockland. (Third Watery Grave?)
What if we take the middle-of-the-road list and cut out Gitaxian Probe entirely? We could use the extra room to main deck 2-3 Aven Mindcensor (since this deck is essentially a tempo list as it is) and maybe a third Snapcaster.
On the matter of Eiganjo Castle: it's usable in very few situations. These include protecting Vendilion Clique from Pyroclasm or Tarfire, protecting Geist from Pyroclasm or Anger of the Gods (unlikely to be sided against us), and protecting Zur from some unlikely set of removal totaling to 4 or 5 (but not 6). in other situations, it's worse than a plains.
We ideally want to hit T1 Discard into T2 Remand or Meddling Mage, so maybe cut it for a shockland. (Third Watery Grave?)
I'm not sure yet on replacing Eiganjo for a different land. I do think it's a weak point, but sometimes it does win you games (usually protecting Geist).
The thing about Meddling Mage is that if you want to play it main deck you really want to look at their hand before that happens. Discard is one way to do it, but it's also a dead draw late game and can water down your deck a bit too much. Gitaxian Probe isn't good, persay, but it also isn't ever that bad. I like it more than additional discard, and with less of them you hurt your Meddling Mages.
whats the consensus on phyrexian arena or spear of heliod?
Phyrexian Arena is fine but not really something you'd usually go for with Zur. That means it has to be good enough to play by itself in a deck, but is it better than other draw spells? Or better than Liliana of the Veil? Since it doesn't answer anything the opponent did and doesn't immediately affect how you are doing, I don't play it.
Spear is cute but you don't run that many creatures that its first ability would be worth running on its own, and the second ability requires you to have mana up and take a hit from their creature before it does anything (and even then, only kills 1 of the creatures). I think it's less helpful than other cards, even though it does have some use against all decks.
To clarify:
Tutoring out a Bestow creature with Zur sticks it onto the field, as a creature. Bestow creatures become Auras only when cast for their Bestow cost.
Thassa is an interesting idea that has been thrown around, but the primary issue is that Zur himself doesn't come down until turn 4 and doesn't swing until turn 5, so chances are you'll be frantically searching for Detention Sphere to deal with your opponent's field. If you swing with Zur and have the spare turn to tutor Thassa, you're already winning hard. Also, turning her into a creature is a bad idea because she's likely to just get pathed.
A good reason to play thassa, other than the fact that scrying every turn is very powerful, is that its making your geist/meddler/whatever unblockable while also being immune to abrupt decay. While steel of the godhead is a better fetch, thassa plays around jund and junk abrupt decays nabbing your steel and then blocking down geist. Either way, Im trying her as a 1-of with 2 steels and 1 dsphere. I have a feeling she's getting sided out the vast majority of the time but the interaction is cute and intriguing. I'd be less inclined to run her in a 7x thoughtseize/kozilek + meddling mage build, and more inclined in the clique/snap/remand builds.
I've been having a lot of fun testing this deck. When it works it works well, but it's just a tad bit inconsistent still. Geist and Zur both being Legendary is rough. Ripping one off the top of the deck with a small hand and one in play already is really lame. But going to 3x of each is probably an even worse idea.
Maybe you guys are onto something with the 1x Thassa for the Scry...
Not sure how I feel about Spreading Seas in the main as well. Messes with some opponents land bases, but there is usually something better that I would rather do with the mana, and I almost never fetch it with Zur, because Detention Sphere and Godhead are too good. Dismember, maybe?
I would try Remand in the Spreading Seas slot, you're right that it's hardly fetchable. Also, usually I'm not that upset when I draw a Geist/Zur with one on the board, because that means they survived being on the board for a turn and that is almost always a winning position.
As for Thassa, the scry is great, but would you want to run it over Phyrexian Arena? Draw a card is way better than scry, and it's much better as a tutor (perhaps against a really grindy deck where you know you'll need a few turns to win still). I don't think we can even consider Thassa turning into a creature so it's really just about the unblockable (which steel can do better) that's abrupt-proof and the scry (which Arena can do better).
I would try Remand in the Spreading Seas slot, you're right that it's hardly fetchable. Also, usually I'm not that upset when I draw a Geist/Zur with one on the board, because that means they survived being on the board for a turn and that is almost always a winning position.
As for Thassa, the scry is great, but would you want to run it over Phyrexian Arena? Draw a card is way better than scry, and it's much better as a tutor (perhaps against a really grindy deck where you know you'll need a few turns to win still). I don't think we can even consider Thassa turning into a creature so it's really just about the unblockable (which steel can do better) that's abrupt-proof and the scry (which Arena can do better).
The difference is solely that with snap+cliques thassa is actually moderately capable of coming online, especially in any matchup that threads of disloyalty comes out of the board, and secondly i'd rather be "stuck" with a thassa in my opening hand than a phyrexian arena.
Like I said, I wouldn't play her in the hand-disruption heavy builds that rely on thoughtseize/inquisition/tidehollow/meddling mage, and would be much more inclined to play her in the snapcaster/clique/remand packages.
As for fetching her over steel, it's only an option against jund/junk. That is the only situation i'd do it, especially if i'm not capable of thoughtseizing in the last turn to look if there is an abrupt decay sitting about. With meddling mage and hand disruption heavy builds there is just no reason to fetch her because you've stripped or named cards like abrupt decay already, but the snapcaster/clique/remand builds don't run 7-8x thoughtseize effects with meddling mage.
The disruption/utility package of clique/snap/remand vs meddling/thoughtseize/inquisition is something i'll have to test out more. At the very least I think thassa deserves 1 sideboard slot in the clique build. I'm playing thassa main because simply that it is cute and fun. It's a fun interaction, not particularly a powerful one. I play to have a bit of fun and fetching up a thassa puts a grin on the face.
And heres my list for posterity. No sideboard fleshed out quite yet.
The difference is solely that with snap+cliques thassa is actually moderately capable of coming online, especially in any matchup that threads of disloyalty comes out of the board, and secondly i'd rather be "stuck" with a thassa in my opening hand than a phyrexian arena.
I'd much rather have Phyrexian Arena in my opening hand. 1 life per turn isn't a problem against the vast majority of decks (compared to the extra card advantage), and Thassa's unblockable ability isn't normally useful. If it's because of double black, most manabases can easily get that by turn 3, at least if you are running hand hate + disfigures main or Deathrites.
I'm playing thassa main because simply that it is cute and fun. It's a fun interaction, not particularly a powerful one. I play to have a bit of fun and fetching up a thassa puts a grin on the face.
Nothing wrong with this, fun is the main reason most people play magic. That said, I feel like this should be stated up front for any deck changes made for the exclusive purpose of fun/cuteness. Something like, "****THIS IS NOT OPTIMAL I'M PLAYING IT FOR FUN, THIS IS NOT THE CORRECT CHOICE IN COMPETITIVE MAGIC****" I mean, this statement is really the key point of the entire argument.
Yeah I'm wondering if I should drop Dark Confidant from my list. It would lower the cost of the deck substantially when I finally buy it on paper lol
I'm not a big fan of Bob in this deck, even though he is just generally good. Flipping 4cmc cards is tough, and we're not playing a lot of life gain effects (2 Steel isn't really enough of an offset. GBx decks run 4x Deathrites + 2-4x Scavenging Ooze + some number of Kitchen Finks).
If you do play him I would also try to run Serum Visions, Deathrite Shamans (with a green shockland to fetch), and not a full playset of Thoughtseizes, which might save you some money if you don't already own those.
Snapcaster is pretty great, and provides card advantage that you don't need to worry about dying. I generally only run 2 of those, but 3 wouldn't be that bad. Alternatively Vendilion clique is always decent.
Snapcaster is pretty great, and provides card advantage that you don't need to worry about dying. I generally only run 2 of those, but 3 wouldn't be that bad. Alternatively Vendilion clique is always decent.
I really like Remands in here, too.
Snappie only has 14 targets in my deck, would 3x Clique be over kill?
That would make 3 Legendary creatures in this deck though, is 2 Eiganjo Castle completely bonkers?
Why is there the school of thought that remand/snap don't belong in discard discard heavy meddling mage builds?
Clique is intentionally left out of my question because I'm struggling to find room for them and the above, but maybe that's my real problem and some number of meddlings should be cliques.
Also am I alone/wrong in thinking that this is the best remand deck in the format? in the same vein also the best shadow of doubt deck where shadow is good.
Why is there the school of thought that remand/snap don't belong in discard discard heavy meddling mage builds?
Clique is intentionally left out of my question because I'm struggling to find room for them and the above, but maybe that's my real problem and some number of meddlings should be cliques.
Also am I alone/wrong in thinking that this is the best remand deck in the format? in the same vein also the best shadow of doubt deck where shadow is good.
This deck is horrid for remand.
Look at the successful (semi?) decks that play remand:
Delver. (UR Tempo)
UWR tempo (which has fallen off the face of the earth)
Splinter Twin
UR Delver and UWR tempo are playing over half their deck at instant speed
Splinter twin is playing a large portion of its deck at instant speed and needs the cantrip to dig.
What does remand do for a sorcery speed deck like Zur?
You don't have an actual window to make remand useful because you're curving out with sorcery speed threats or tapping out for creeping tarpit.
Why is there the school of thought that remand/snap don't belong in discard discard heavy meddling mage builds?
Clique is intentionally left out of my question because I'm struggling to find room for them and the above, but maybe that's my real problem and some number of meddlings should be cliques.
Also am I alone/wrong in thinking that this is the best remand deck in the format? in the same vein also the best shadow of doubt deck where shadow is good.
Remand is great, I wouldn't say it's the best thing of all time here as you don't try to win in the starting turns where Remand can really just shut opponents down.
I think the main reason not to run Remand in discard heavy builds is that you're going to want to tap out to play your discard spells and then Meddling Mages, whereas Remand needs you to keep up mana. You can play both, and I play a mix in my build, but I don't think it's worth going discard heavy without running Meddling Mage (since you get to for sure hit a card then), and I don't think running 7-8 Discard spells + Meddling Mage + Gitaxian Probe (great with MM) leaves you enough room for more interruption.
I don't see why this is the best Shadow of Doubt deck, other than we play blue+black. It shuts down our fetchlands + Zur (though that's easy to play around). It's certainly not maindeck material.
This deck is horrid for remand.
Look at the successful (semi?) decks that play remand:
Delver. (UR Tempo)
UWR tempo (which has fallen off the face of the earth)
Splinter Twin
UR Delver and UWR tempo are playing over half their deck at instant speed
Splinter twin is playing a large portion of its deck at instant speed and needs the cantrip to dig.
What does remand do for a sorcery speed deck like Zur?
You don't have an actual window to make remand useful because you're curving out with sorcery speed threats or tapping out for creeping tarpit.
I don't agree here. The power level of Remand is definitely enough to warrant consideration in any blue deck, and the fact that we need to stall until later turns means that the deck gets benefit from it. In any deck that is okay with seeing 5 turns where neither player resolves a spell, like this one, Remand is a great inclusion.
We play powerful bombs that if we keep in play for an extra turn through Remand can easily win the game (Geist + Zur). Neither of them are that hard to kill by the time you get them down with the right cards (turn 3-4), or by the time you have enough mana to cast any counterspell (+2 turns to previous figure). That means by turn 5 if you want to have a counterspell in your deck that stops Pyroclasm against your Geist, Mana Leak won't be the card you want. By turn 6, Path to Exile still hits your Zur through Mana Leak. You can often save them a turn by Remand just from the opponent not having enough colors though.
The other main fact that everyone seems to be missing is that Remand works great with a deck full of garbage top decks. If you're playing 6+ discard spells and stuff like Mana Leak instead of Remand, you're going to have a hard time in a grindy late game situation. Top deck a Remand and at least you can cycle it for more cards. Top deck any discard or Mana Leak and chances are it's completely useless.
I won't go into cantripping on remand, but I will go into it's weak timewalk effect. I'm calling this a timewalk effect but it's really trading 2 tapped lands for at least X tapped lands or at best 2X tapped lands. Limited mana on board usually results in an opponent ending the turn in the same position as they would have but a turn later. I'll also make these blanket statements: extra turns are better the less turns there are in a game, extra turns are better when you can capitalize on resources more effectively.
Taking those statements, assuming remand grants a weak timewalk effect and applying them to the two scenarios this deck wants to achieve. These scenarios being playing remand pre, and post threat. Playing remand pre-threat you are better utilizing resources by putting yourself ahead on board, this implies Zur or Geist is higher impact then an opposing 2/3/4 cmc spell. Playing remand post-threat keeps you ahead on board. In both scenarios you are capitalizing on ideally a single attack step at minimum.
TLDR:
Spending my mana on quality threats relative to the rest of modern or playing removal means I'm utilizing mana effectively in remand's timewalk function.
Attacking is how I win and I believe(lets be real this is untested ground but it's a hunch) playing Geist and Zur grant me better attack steps then my opponent, then I'm better utilizing my attacks in remand's timewalk function.
Apologies:
Sure it was a little ridiculous to say it's the best remand deck, but I do think it's better then delver given how little control of draws you have in modern and how underwhelming the threat ends up. In the case of twin my argument was that because our threats are so hard to deal with versus jamming the combo we are better utilizing attack steps but I neglected to put that in the original post.
Getting back to Shadow of Doubt, it plays effectively very similar to remand except it is much more limited in application and that was my only argument.
I'm sorry, I tried to take that seriously but if you don't go into how Remand draws you a card you can't take anything else into account and expect it to be accurate. That's why Remand is so good.
Consider that people regularly pay 1 mana for stuff like Gitaxian Probe or Serum Visions. Add 1 more mana to that and you get something that stalls the opponent their earlier turns in the game (or if you're lucky, their mid-late turns). Doing that all while replacing itself with threats is why it's so good.
Remand is awesome, check the first place on that Modern Daily. Really nice list, although I'm not sure how I feel about the 1 of Lingering Souls, so I change it slightly.
As an exciting side note, you guys are 1 MTGO Daily placement away from getting promoted to the Established section of the forum! Good luck in the next few weeks; you have until the January ban announcement, around the 27th, to get that last 4-0/3-1 finish in.
On the topic of Lingering Souls, I actually think that's very cool tech. It gives the deck just a bit more game vs aggro and Jund (good card to discard, also stops Edict from being a killer). The tokens can chump vs Affinity or trade vs their X/1's.
I would definitely not cut the 2 Lingering Souls from the main and side, and the only thing stopping me from trying to force an extra copy into the main is the fact that the list already looks really tight.
Edit: I watched CalebD's video, and he wound up citing the same reasons for Lingering Souls, although he did also say that the countermagic and the Lingering Souls slot are things he feels unsure about.
Edit 2: I finished watching the series. Thassa did nothing for him in the one game he did tutor it out since he would have won if he had skipped the tutor, and it never animated. He drew it in the opener in game 1 against RUG delver, where it wasn't a useful card.
Lingering Souls was alright in the couple of games he did use it, but it didn't stop him from dying to repeated Huntmaster flips.
Something that would have helped him a lot vs Scapeshift is Vendilion Clique. The 18-to-0 nature of the deck meant that he had to throw a lot of disruption around, and Clique is a good clock stapled to disruption.
The round 3 loss was against RUG Delver, but until the list gets posted online, we don't know the build for sure, like how many Huntmasters are in the main and side.
G2 basically looked like someone getting blindsided by a rogue deck, plus a fast draw from delver. Blood Moon basically nailed it in by keeping him off Zur.
G3, his 7 was trash, and his 6 was mediocre. Drawing into Path was good for him, but Huntmaster turned out to be the bigger threat. Pathing Scooze was probably a mistake.
I think a good change would be -1 Lingering Souls, -1 Thassa, +2 Vendilion Clique in the main. I agree with running 3 Remand instead of 4 Mana Leak. This deck does nothing if it can't draw one of its creatures, so the draw is handy.
I'm not sure if Lingering Souls is still worth a spot, over something like an extra Spellskite in the side. If we add Clique to the main, that frees up the Thoughtseize spot in Caleb's side (which got replaced by Path in the MTGO list, apparently). This could be the second Lingering Souls, or additional tech vs aggro decks that are backed by Burn.
I'm not sure whether CoP: Red or Finks is a better sideboard card in general. Probably Finks, since it's also a creature, and the life is relevant against more than just red decks. Wurmcoil Engine or Batterskull probably come down too late to be useful in this deck. Wurmcoil is sided in the Ninja Bear Delver deck, but that runs a lot more draw, so assembling the mana is more likely.
One interesting consideration is that Finks and Spellskite together cover all of Lingering Souls' uses except for chumping affinity's fliers. Finks is a good buffer vs aggro, and also gives 2 buffers vs Lili's edict, and doesn't get wiped by Maelstrom Pulse like the tokens do. Spellskite is good vs Jund to redirect Maelstrom Pulse, and also fills a decent role vs Affinity. Only having one in the side seems remiss.
Speaking of Finks, Breeding Pool is almost certainly the correct choice of green source. Overgrown Tomb is redundant for Deathrite Shaman, and Temple Garden is redundant for Finks.
So to recap, in the side, I'm suggesting:
-1 Circle of Protection: Red
+1 Kitchen Finks
-1 Thoughtseize
-1 Lingering Souls
+2 Flex (Lingering Souls, more Spellskite or Finks, maybe an additional piece of removal like Disfigure. Or just 2 Lingering Souls.)
On the matter of Eiganjo Castle: it's usable in very few situations. These include protecting Vendilion Clique from Pyroclasm or Tarfire, protecting Geist from Pyroclasm or Anger of the Gods (unlikely to be sided against us), and protecting Zur from some unlikely set of removal totaling to 4 or 5 (but not 6). in other situations, it's worse than a plains.
We ideally want to hit T1 Discard into T2 Remand or Meddling Mage, so maybe cut it for a shockland. (Third Watery Grave?)
I'm not sure yet on replacing Eiganjo for a different land. I do think it's a weak point, but sometimes it does win you games (usually protecting Geist).
The thing about Meddling Mage is that if you want to play it main deck you really want to look at their hand before that happens. Discard is one way to do it, but it's also a dead draw late game and can water down your deck a bit too much. Gitaxian Probe isn't good, persay, but it also isn't ever that bad. I like it more than additional discard, and with less of them you hurt your Meddling Mages.
Phyrexian Arena is fine but not really something you'd usually go for with Zur. That means it has to be good enough to play by itself in a deck, but is it better than other draw spells? Or better than Liliana of the Veil? Since it doesn't answer anything the opponent did and doesn't immediately affect how you are doing, I don't play it.
Spear is cute but you don't run that many creatures that its first ability would be worth running on its own, and the second ability requires you to have mana up and take a hit from their creature before it does anything (and even then, only kills 1 of the creatures). I think it's less helpful than other cards, even though it does have some use against all decks.
A good reason to play thassa, other than the fact that scrying every turn is very powerful, is that its making your geist/meddler/whatever unblockable while also being immune to abrupt decay. While steel of the godhead is a better fetch, thassa plays around jund and junk abrupt decays nabbing your steel and then blocking down geist. Either way, Im trying her as a 1-of with 2 steels and 1 dsphere. I have a feeling she's getting sided out the vast majority of the time but the interaction is cute and intriguing. I'd be less inclined to run her in a 7x thoughtseize/kozilek + meddling mage build, and more inclined in the clique/snap/remand builds.
1x Eiganjo Castle
2x Godless Shrine
2x Hallowed Fountain
1x Island
4x Marsh Flats
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Plains
1x Swamp
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Watery Grave
3x Dark Confidant
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Geist of Saint Traft
4x Zur the Enchanter
3x Spreading Seas
2x Steel of the Godhead
3x Disfigure
4x Path to Exile
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Thoughtseize
1x Illness in the Ranks
2x Kitchen Finks
2x Negate
2x Rest in Peace
1x Rule of Law
2x Spellskite
2x Stony Silence
2x Threads of Disloyalty
I've been having a lot of fun testing this deck. When it works it works well, but it's just a tad bit inconsistent still. Geist and Zur both being Legendary is rough. Ripping one off the top of the deck with a small hand and one in play already is really lame. But going to 3x of each is probably an even worse idea.
Maybe you guys are onto something with the 1x Thassa for the Scry...
Not sure how I feel about Spreading Seas in the main as well. Messes with some opponents land bases, but there is usually something better that I would rather do with the mana, and I almost never fetch it with Zur, because Detention Sphere and Godhead are too good. Dismember, maybe?
As for Thassa, the scry is great, but would you want to run it over Phyrexian Arena? Draw a card is way better than scry, and it's much better as a tutor (perhaps against a really grindy deck where you know you'll need a few turns to win still). I don't think we can even consider Thassa turning into a creature so it's really just about the unblockable (which steel can do better) that's abrupt-proof and the scry (which Arena can do better).
1x Eiganjo Castle
2x Godless Shrine
2x Hallowed Fountain
1x Island
4x Marsh Flats
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Plains
1x Swamp
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Watery Grave
3x Dark Confidant
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Geist of Saint Traft
4x Zur the Enchanter
2x Phyrexian Arena
2x Steel of the Godhead
4x Disfigure
4x Path to Exile
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Thoughtseize
1x Illness in the Ranks
2x Kitchen Finks
2x Negate
2x Rest in Peace
1x Rule of Law
2x Spellskite
2x Stony Silence
2x Threads of Disloyalty
That's what I changed the list to. -3 Spreading, +1 Disfigure, +2 Phyrexian Arena
The difference is solely that with snap+cliques thassa is actually moderately capable of coming online, especially in any matchup that threads of disloyalty comes out of the board, and secondly i'd rather be "stuck" with a thassa in my opening hand than a phyrexian arena.
Like I said, I wouldn't play her in the hand-disruption heavy builds that rely on thoughtseize/inquisition/tidehollow/meddling mage, and would be much more inclined to play her in the snapcaster/clique/remand packages.
As for fetching her over steel, it's only an option against jund/junk. That is the only situation i'd do it, especially if i'm not capable of thoughtseizing in the last turn to look if there is an abrupt decay sitting about. With meddling mage and hand disruption heavy builds there is just no reason to fetch her because you've stripped or named cards like abrupt decay already, but the snapcaster/clique/remand builds don't run 7-8x thoughtseize effects with meddling mage.
The disruption/utility package of clique/snap/remand vs meddling/thoughtseize/inquisition is something i'll have to test out more. At the very least I think thassa deserves 1 sideboard slot in the clique build. I'm playing thassa main because simply that it is cute and fun. It's a fun interaction, not particularly a powerful one. I play to have a bit of fun and fetching up a thassa puts a grin on the face.
And heres my list for posterity. No sideboard fleshed out quite yet.
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Zur the Enchanter
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
Instants/Sorceries (18)
4 Path to Exile
4 Remand
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Serum Visions
2 Disfigure
1 Dismember
1 Thassa, God of the Sea
1 Detention Sphere
2 Steel of the Godhead
Land (23)
4 Marsh Flats
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Watery Grave
2 River of Tears
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
I'd much rather have Phyrexian Arena in my opening hand. 1 life per turn isn't a problem against the vast majority of decks (compared to the extra card advantage), and Thassa's unblockable ability isn't normally useful. If it's because of double black, most manabases can easily get that by turn 3, at least if you are running hand hate + disfigures main or Deathrites.
Nothing wrong with this, fun is the main reason most people play magic. That said, I feel like this should be stated up front for any deck changes made for the exclusive purpose of fun/cuteness. Something like, "****THIS IS NOT OPTIMAL I'M PLAYING IT FOR FUN, THIS IS NOT THE CORRECT CHOICE IN COMPETITIVE MAGIC****" I mean, this statement is really the key point of the entire argument.
I'm not a big fan of Bob in this deck, even though he is just generally good. Flipping 4cmc cards is tough, and we're not playing a lot of life gain effects (2 Steel isn't really enough of an offset. GBx decks run 4x Deathrites + 2-4x Scavenging Ooze + some number of Kitchen Finks).
If you do play him I would also try to run Serum Visions, Deathrite Shamans (with a green shockland to fetch), and not a full playset of Thoughtseizes, which might save you some money if you don't already own those.
Overall I don't think he's necessary.
I really like Remands in here, too.
Snappie only has 14 targets in my deck, would 3x Clique be over kill?
That would make 3 Legendary creatures in this deck though, is 2 Eiganjo Castle completely bonkers?
1x Eiganjo Castle
3x Godless Shrine
2x Hallowed Fountain
1x Island
4x Marsh Flats
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Plains
1x Swamp
1x Verdant Catacombs
2x Watery Grave
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Geist of Saint Traft
2x Vendilion Clique
4x Zur the Enchanter
2x Phyrexian Arena
2x Steel of the Godhead
4x Disfigure
4x Path to Exile
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Thoughtseize
1x Illness in the Ranks
2x Kitchen Finks
2x Negate
2x Rest in Peace
1x Rule of Law
2x Spellskite
2x Stony Silence
2x Threads of Disloyalty
That's where I'm at now. It's a lot of fun to play
Why is there the school of thought that remand/snap don't belong in discard discard heavy meddling mage builds?
Clique is intentionally left out of my question because I'm struggling to find room for them and the above, but maybe that's my real problem and some number of meddlings should be cliques.
Also am I alone/wrong in thinking that this is the best remand deck in the format? in the same vein also the best shadow of doubt deck where shadow is good.
This deck is horrid for remand.
Look at the successful (semi?) decks that play remand:
Delver. (UR Tempo)
UWR tempo (which has fallen off the face of the earth)
Splinter Twin
UR Delver and UWR tempo are playing over half their deck at instant speed
Splinter twin is playing a large portion of its deck at instant speed and needs the cantrip to dig.
What does remand do for a sorcery speed deck like Zur?
You don't have an actual window to make remand useful because you're curving out with sorcery speed threats or tapping out for creeping tarpit.
Remand is great, I wouldn't say it's the best thing of all time here as you don't try to win in the starting turns where Remand can really just shut opponents down.
I think the main reason not to run Remand in discard heavy builds is that you're going to want to tap out to play your discard spells and then Meddling Mages, whereas Remand needs you to keep up mana. You can play both, and I play a mix in my build, but I don't think it's worth going discard heavy without running Meddling Mage (since you get to for sure hit a card then), and I don't think running 7-8 Discard spells + Meddling Mage + Gitaxian Probe (great with MM) leaves you enough room for more interruption.
I don't see why this is the best Shadow of Doubt deck, other than we play blue+black. It shuts down our fetchlands + Zur (though that's easy to play around). It's certainly not maindeck material.
I don't agree here. The power level of Remand is definitely enough to warrant consideration in any blue deck, and the fact that we need to stall until later turns means that the deck gets benefit from it. In any deck that is okay with seeing 5 turns where neither player resolves a spell, like this one, Remand is a great inclusion.
We play powerful bombs that if we keep in play for an extra turn through Remand can easily win the game (Geist + Zur). Neither of them are that hard to kill by the time you get them down with the right cards (turn 3-4), or by the time you have enough mana to cast any counterspell (+2 turns to previous figure). That means by turn 5 if you want to have a counterspell in your deck that stops Pyroclasm against your Geist, Mana Leak won't be the card you want. By turn 6, Path to Exile still hits your Zur through Mana Leak. You can often save them a turn by Remand just from the opponent not having enough colors though.
The other main fact that everyone seems to be missing is that Remand works great with a deck full of garbage top decks. If you're playing 6+ discard spells and stuff like Mana Leak instead of Remand, you're going to have a hard time in a grindy late game situation. Top deck a Remand and at least you can cycle it for more cards. Top deck any discard or Mana Leak and chances are it's completely useless.
Taking those statements, assuming remand grants a weak timewalk effect and applying them to the two scenarios this deck wants to achieve. These scenarios being playing remand pre, and post threat. Playing remand pre-threat you are better utilizing resources by putting yourself ahead on board, this implies Zur or Geist is higher impact then an opposing 2/3/4 cmc spell. Playing remand post-threat keeps you ahead on board. In both scenarios you are capitalizing on ideally a single attack step at minimum.
TLDR:
Spending my mana on quality threats relative to the rest of modern or playing removal means I'm utilizing mana effectively in remand's timewalk function.
Attacking is how I win and I believe(lets be real this is untested ground but it's a hunch) playing Geist and Zur grant me better attack steps then my opponent, then I'm better utilizing my attacks in remand's timewalk function.
Apologies:
Sure it was a little ridiculous to say it's the best remand deck, but I do think it's better then delver given how little control of draws you have in modern and how underwhelming the threat ends up. In the case of twin my argument was that because our threats are so hard to deal with versus jamming the combo we are better utilizing attack steps but I neglected to put that in the original post.
Getting back to Shadow of Doubt, it plays effectively very similar to remand except it is much more limited in application and that was my only argument.
Consider that people regularly pay 1 mana for stuff like Gitaxian Probe or Serum Visions. Add 1 more mana to that and you get something that stalls the opponent their earlier turns in the game (or if you're lucky, their mid-late turns). Doing that all while replacing itself with threats is why it's so good.
Remand is awesome, check the first place on that Modern Daily. Really nice list, although I'm not sure how I feel about the 1 of Lingering Souls, so I change it slightly.
3x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Darkslick Shores
1x Eiganjo Castle
1x Godless Shrine
3x Hallowed Fountain
1x Island
4x Marsh Flats
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Plains
1x Seachrome Coast
1x Swamp
2x Watery Grave
3x Spreading Seas
2x Steel of the Godhead
1x Threads of Disloyalty
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Geist of Saint Traft
1x Thassa, God of the Sea
4x Zur the Enchanter
3x Mana Leak
3x Path to Exile
3x Remand
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Thoughtseize
2x Kitchen Finks
1x Nevermore
1x Path to Exile
2x Rest in Peace
2x Spell Snare
1x Spellskite
1x Spreading Seas
2x Stony Silence
1x Threads of Disloyalty
1x Detention Sphere
In case you haven't seen them yet. First two rounds are pretty much stomps, last 2 are good watches. He is playing the same decklist as above.
On the topic of Lingering Souls, I actually think that's very cool tech. It gives the deck just a bit more game vs aggro and Jund (good card to discard, also stops Edict from being a killer). The tokens can chump vs Affinity or trade vs their X/1's.
I would definitely not cut the 2 Lingering Souls from the main and side, and the only thing stopping me from trying to force an extra copy into the main is the fact that the list already looks really tight.
Edit: I watched CalebD's video, and he wound up citing the same reasons for Lingering Souls, although he did also say that the countermagic and the Lingering Souls slot are things he feels unsure about.
Edit 2: I finished watching the series. Thassa did nothing for him in the one game he did tutor it out since he would have won if he had skipped the tutor, and it never animated. He drew it in the opener in game 1 against RUG delver, where it wasn't a useful card.
Lingering Souls was alright in the couple of games he did use it, but it didn't stop him from dying to repeated Huntmaster flips.
Something that would have helped him a lot vs Scapeshift is Vendilion Clique. The 18-to-0 nature of the deck meant that he had to throw a lot of disruption around, and Clique is a good clock stapled to disruption.
The round 3 loss was against RUG Delver, but until the list gets posted online, we don't know the build for sure, like how many Huntmasters are in the main and side.
G2 basically looked like someone getting blindsided by a rogue deck, plus a fast draw from delver. Blood Moon basically nailed it in by keeping him off Zur.
G3, his 7 was trash, and his 6 was mediocre. Drawing into Path was good for him, but Huntmaster turned out to be the bigger threat. Pathing Scooze was probably a mistake.
I think a good change would be -1 Lingering Souls, -1 Thassa, +2 Vendilion Clique in the main. I agree with running 3 Remand instead of 4 Mana Leak. This deck does nothing if it can't draw one of its creatures, so the draw is handy.
I'm not sure if Lingering Souls is still worth a spot, over something like an extra Spellskite in the side. If we add Clique to the main, that frees up the Thoughtseize spot in Caleb's side (which got replaced by Path in the MTGO list, apparently). This could be the second Lingering Souls, or additional tech vs aggro decks that are backed by Burn.
I'm not sure whether CoP: Red or Finks is a better sideboard card in general. Probably Finks, since it's also a creature, and the life is relevant against more than just red decks. Wurmcoil Engine or Batterskull probably come down too late to be useful in this deck. Wurmcoil is sided in the Ninja Bear Delver deck, but that runs a lot more draw, so assembling the mana is more likely.
One interesting consideration is that Finks and Spellskite together cover all of Lingering Souls' uses except for chumping affinity's fliers. Finks is a good buffer vs aggro, and also gives 2 buffers vs Lili's edict, and doesn't get wiped by Maelstrom Pulse like the tokens do. Spellskite is good vs Jund to redirect Maelstrom Pulse, and also fills a decent role vs Affinity. Only having one in the side seems remiss.
Speaking of Finks, Breeding Pool is almost certainly the correct choice of green source. Overgrown Tomb is redundant for Deathrite Shaman, and Temple Garden is redundant for Finks.
So to recap, in the side, I'm suggesting:
-1 Circle of Protection: Red
+1 Kitchen Finks
-1 Thoughtseize
-1 Lingering Souls
+2 Flex (Lingering Souls, more Spellskite or Finks, maybe an additional piece of removal like Disfigure. Or just 2 Lingering Souls.)
It's weird that people are picking up this deck, since it didn't get any cards since RTR
guess i'll watch the videos