Call me a snob, but I generally don't think highly of MTGO tournaments and the brewtier decks that place in them. As a rule, IRC events have better turnouts and stronger players/builds. (You'd think the barriers to entry would actually make this less so, but oh well.)
You're a snob. As a matter of fact there is a very good argument for the opposite as a lot of pros will grind to test on MTGO (Lapse, I'm surprised you let this go without comment). It is true that online and meatspace metas are often different, but
Worse yet, I've known people who will netdeck straight off of MTGO and other MODOs, then end up playing with a pile of jank that wouldn't even top an FNM. I'm forced to ask "WTF is this?"
MTGO = Magic the Gathering Online
MODO = Magic Online (with) Digital Objects
They refer to the same thing.
RE: The deck- I am not super enthusiastic about decks that revolove so heavily around a single tutor (even if it is a creature). Granted, you still have geist to beat face with, but there just always seems to be something so tempermental about decks like this.
That said, if I was playing a deck like this I think I would try and find room for Ghostly Prison.
RE: The deck- I am not super enthusiastic about decks that revolove so heavily around a single tutor (even if it is a creature). Granted, you still have geist to beat face with, but there just always seems to be something so tempermental about decks like this.
That said, if I was playing a deck like this I think I would try and find room for Ghostly Prison.
Ghostly Prison comes in and out of the sideboard, it's good against some decks (mainly Twin or Affinity) but both of them have ways to deal with it maindeck (Boomerang and Cranial Plating, respectively). It's good, but Stony Silence is better against Affinity (bonus: awesome against tron) and instant speed removal is much better against Twin (and many other decks).
The deck wins without seeing Zur. In my list I only play 3 since he really isn't essential. Geist + control is a good enough plan for most decks to win, but if you can land and swing with Zur, you basically win. It isn't an X card combo deck, it's a control deck that has a large source of card advantage.
Spreading Seas got to be in there because there are situations where tutoring up any other enchantment makes no sense - eg no target for Detention Sphere so you get Spreading Seas to draw a card.
And as others said Spreading Seas removes manlands.
While I understand the reasoning, it's extremely unlikely in practice that you'd rather draw a card than +2/+2 Zur. If they don't have something you want to Detention Sphere or Threads of Disloyalty, chances are pretty good that all you're looking to do is close out the game fast. Steel is pretty much the only card you'd want there, as it gives lifelink as well as damage. Hitting for 3 or 5 with lifelink is enough to negate any damage they'd do with their manlands. It isn't a bad card, persay, I just don't want to see people overvaluing it before they even play the deck, because it does water down your draws after all (pun fully intended).
I would love to like this deck more, I love toolbox decks but the successful versions of this are running little toolbox mainboard and seem more beatdown and I absolutely dislike everything about Geist, starting with the horrendous art.
Geist with Steel on him is one of the most disgusting interactions in all of Modern. Geist without Steel on him is a 3-4 turn clock (usually 3, everyone runs fetches + Shocks or you'll get a Snapcaster or something in there).
As for toolboxing the deck, I fully support 3 enchantments total in the deck, but many people like more. You don't really need to have something for every occasion in here as Detention Sphere + Steel of the Godhead basically do everything you'd want. After sideboard is where you'd want the extra enchants unless the metagame shifts enough to the point where you know for a fact that something will crush people (as I think Rest in Peace has now).
I'm typically way too cautious when I play Zur--I always search for enchantments under the assumption that Zur dies next turn. Thus, I only tend to search for Steel of the Godhead if my life total is low--otherwise, I search for Phyrexian Arena first against an open board.
Yeah, against an open board, my Zur sequence is typically Arena into Rise of the Hobgoblins. Rise of the Hobgoblins is subpar in my opening hand (like Steel of the Godhead), but man, when Zur finds it, it closes out games fast.
The trick in any deck that plays tutors is to find the balance between silver bullets and generally good cards. Zur will die before you attack with him if the opponent has the means. There is no card with a bigger target on its head. If you get a swing in that means the opponent has to top deck a way to kill him. Shielding Plax used to be in the deck for just that occasion but has been cut out of being unnecessary. Rise sounds cute but terrible if you have to cast it.
Reprints the one card that people point to when saying that art objectifies women.
Well done Wizards.
Liliana does not objectify women in any way at all. We have gotten to a point in our society that every single picture of a women must be objectifying a women in some negative way......blah blah blah.. That is not the case. (((Sarcasm)))Picture of a girl drinking a milk shake, must be sex related and putting women down, picture of girl sitting on a beach, picture of a girl driving a car, picture of a girl on the moon at a new space station.)))
You have a picture of an attractive strong power women who girls dress up as for anime conventions. What more do you want? The picture is fine, happy to see a reprint. Sick of of seeing people claim that everything in existence must be putting women down. Then all I have to do is replace the word "women" with anything else to get the same mentality; fish, cats, arabs, blacks, jews, men, environment, whites, chinese, old people, etc. It doesn't matter what word I put in. Stop sucking life out of everything man. That artwork of her is awesome. Stop putting stuff down man. Just stop. If the picture was really as negative as you claim she would totally nude, in a kitchen, making sandwiches and giving blow jobs. Her abilities would be horrible as well. +1 do nothing -2 do nothing -6 do nothing. Instead liliana of the veil is an amazing planeswalker comparable to jace, the mind sculpter with great art to appreciate.
My suggestion listen to some comedy radio for a while, pandora is free, youtube is free there is something out there for you. ***** go make fun of somebody. The whole world is so serious and campaigning for some cause, or someones rights, everything is a hate crime, racist, sexist. blah blah blah.
"O no mcdonalds must be slandering a hate crime against skinny people every time they make a big mac." hahaha jeeze You're just someone perpetuating another groups negative perspective that they've made you believe is correct. Look at the picture for a hour and tell me what's wrong with it? I don't see anything.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
darkslick shores makes sense. you want untapped black early to make them discard. the river of tears as well. except when you first play it, you get blue.
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():
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I speak in sarcasm because calling people ******* ******** is not allowed.
darkslick shores makes sense. you want untapped black early to make them discard. the river of tears as well. except when you first play it, you get blue.
You referring to Darkslick Shores or River of Tears?
Because when River enters, it's Black mana.
The only primary upside I see with River is that it comes down untapped in the later turns. My question is how important is this?
Reprints the one card that people point to when saying that art objectifies women.
Well done Wizards.
Liliana does not objectify women in any way at all. We have gotten to a point in our society that every single picture of a women must be objectifying a women in some negative way......blah blah blah.. That is not the case. (((Sarcasm)))Picture of a girl drinking a milk shake, must be sex related and putting women down, picture of girl sitting on a beach, picture of a girl driving a car, picture of a girl on the moon at a new space station.)))
You have a picture of an attractive strong power women who girls dress up as for anime conventions. What more do you want? The picture is fine, happy to see a reprint. Sick of of seeing people claim that everything in existence must be putting women down. Then all I have to do is replace the word "women" with anything else to get the same mentality; fish, cats, arabs, blacks, jews, men, environment, whites, chinese, old people, etc. It doesn't matter what word I put in. Stop sucking life out of everything man. That artwork of her is awesome. Stop putting stuff down man. Just stop. If the picture was really as negative as you claim she would totally nude, in a kitchen, making sandwiches and giving blow jobs. Her abilities would be horrible as well. +1 do nothing -2 do nothing -6 do nothing. Instead liliana of the veil is an amazing planeswalker comparable to jace, the mind sculpter with great art to appreciate.
My suggestion listen to some comedy radio for a while, pandora is free, youtube is free there is something out there for you. ***** go make fun of somebody. The whole world is so serious and campaigning for some cause, or someones rights, everything is a hate crime, racist, sexist. blah blah blah.
"O no mcdonalds must be slandering a hate crime against skinny people every time they make a big mac." hahaha jeeze You're just someone perpetuating another groups negative perspective that they've made you believe is correct. Look at the picture for a hour and tell me what's wrong with it? I don't see anything.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
darkslick shores makes sense. you want untapped black early to make them discard. the river of tears as well. except when you first play it, you get blue.
Actually the turn you play it it will produce black, perfect for the turn 1 discard spells. After that, it seems pretty good because it's blue for your instants, or else you tap it for mana first (if you get a second turn white land for Meddling Mage, etc.).
My land choices are completely different from the one that got 15th, and I think my choices are much, much better and more stable. This is my manabase:
I believe the person who got 5th adapted the list that Gerry Thompson wrote about on Starcitygames, which was originally found because of my placements in consecutive daily events. I also believe that the list that got 5th had budget restrictions and wasn't running a very good list, but that is open for debate.
My land choices are completely different from the one that got 15th, and I think my choices are much, much better and more stable. This is my manabase:
I believe the person who got 5th adapted the list that Gerry Thompson wrote about on Starcitygames, which was originally found because of my placements in consecutive daily events. I also believe that the list that got 5th had budget restrictions and wasn't running a very good list, but that is open for debate.
I definitely like this land list a lot better.
I don't get your main deck though; it's so different compared to other Zur lists I've seen thus far. You're running so many creatures and next to no enchantments main. What's your reasoning? Is Zur *effectively* just for game 2 and 3 to pull out silver bullets?
Reprints the one card that people point to when saying that art objectifies women.
Well done Wizards.
Liliana does not objectify women in any way at all. We have gotten to a point in our society that every single picture of a women must be objectifying a women in some negative way......blah blah blah.. That is not the case. (((Sarcasm)))Picture of a girl drinking a milk shake, must be sex related and putting women down, picture of girl sitting on a beach, picture of a girl driving a car, picture of a girl on the moon at a new space station.)))
You have a picture of an attractive strong power women who girls dress up as for anime conventions. What more do you want? The picture is fine, happy to see a reprint. Sick of of seeing people claim that everything in existence must be putting women down. Then all I have to do is replace the word "women" with anything else to get the same mentality; fish, cats, arabs, blacks, jews, men, environment, whites, chinese, old people, etc. It doesn't matter what word I put in. Stop sucking life out of everything man. That artwork of her is awesome. Stop putting stuff down man. Just stop. If the picture was really as negative as you claim she would totally nude, in a kitchen, making sandwiches and giving blow jobs. Her abilities would be horrible as well. +1 do nothing -2 do nothing -6 do nothing. Instead liliana of the veil is an amazing planeswalker comparable to jace, the mind sculpter with great art to appreciate.
My suggestion listen to some comedy radio for a while, pandora is free, youtube is free there is something out there for you. ***** go make fun of somebody. The whole world is so serious and campaigning for some cause, or someones rights, everything is a hate crime, racist, sexist. blah blah blah.
"O no mcdonalds must be slandering a hate crime against skinny people every time they make a big mac." hahaha jeeze You're just someone perpetuating another groups negative perspective that they've made you believe is correct. Look at the picture for a hour and tell me what's wrong with it? I don't see anything.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
Actually the turn you play it it will produce black, perfect for the turn 1 discard spells. After that, it seems pretty good because it's blue for your instants, or else you tap it for mana first (if you get a second turn white land for Meddling Mage, etc.).
ah, my fault. i was trying to remember the card from memory.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I speak in sarcasm because calling people ******* ******** is not allowed.
I don't get your main deck though; it's so different compared to other Zur lists I've seen thus far. You're running so many creatures and next to no enchantments main. What's your reasoning? Is Zur *effectively* just for game 2 and 3 to pull out silver bullets?
Most of these cards are severely underwhelming unless you know your metagame. If you're in a normal distribution of Modern Decks, most of those enchantments are just not very good. What it basically breaks down into, are two situations against any deck.
1) You're doing your stuff as a control deck, and the opponent is not going to be able to race a 3-5 lifelinker and your smaller dudes, and has no "oops, I win" permanents to get rid of on the board. Now keep in mind, Zur can't swing until turn 4 or 5 in my deck, or turn 5 in the OP of this thread's deck. In this situation you want a Steel on Zur, or if you have Geist, the trigger resolves before blockers so you can swing with both for unblockable Geist.
Spreading seas hitting a manland has been discussed, but I have never been in a situation where Zur can't race a manland with Steels. It may be a situation that exists (Raging Ravine, maybe?), but remember toolboxes can't be there for every situation possible, and the ones that seldom/never happen should be treated as such. Against Tron, chances are by turn 5 you're not going to be doing much against them by hitting a single land of theirs. Running a singleton SS means you want to be fetching the thing with Zur, and at that point in the game you either lost because they assembled Tron and got through your countermagic, or are doing decently well stopping them from playing things.
The other thing has been discussed is getting advantage before Zur dies, or protecting Zur from dying. These both are a little weaker since Zur would always be killed before he can attack, he won't live if the opponent can stop it. That means you're going into the realm of "the opponent needs to top deck an answer immediately." I love Shielding Plax to death as a way of trying to protect Zur, but ultimately it just isn't worth it. Running a 3-mana-draw-1-card-if-they-don't-remove-your-targetted-creature spell had to be cut in the end (and I tried to make it live on in the sideboard, I really clung to that card for a long time). Once again, I believe it is better to just play as if they won't top deck their Path/Decree/Celestial Purge, because percentage-wise you're better off just finishing them quickly.
The one other thing to be said here, is just saving your cards in hand after you land Zur and he's swinging is often the right line of play. You can either save up mana for Remands or save guys for in case they do hit a board clearer. They won't be able to kill Zur in combat with Steel, so you should really be in the clear after he swings.
2) You're in trouble, and need to get rid of some stuff the opponent has. Detention Sphere is perfect for this situation just because it's the swiss army knife of removal. Tokens/creatures/planeswalkers/whatever, it hits it. Now I'm not against running something like Rest in Peace, Threads of Disloyalty, or Stony Silence in the maindeck, but you need to know your metagame is skewed towards one of these in advance, otherwise more often than not you'll be sitting with a dead card in hand.
Lastly, just to emphasize this, the more silver bullets you play, the more watered down the deck will be. You're already playing 2 Steel of the Godheads which are kind of useless without Zur or Geist on the field, Detention Sphere is pretty good when it comes to drawing it randomly, but it still is a 3 cost removal spell when you're playing decks like Affinity, that gets hit by Abrupt Decays when you're playing against Jund.
In conclusion, I play 3 enchantments because while necessary for Zur (and great with him, don't get me wrong), they aren't as good as other cards in the deck. 2 Steels are there just so you can be sure to get one on him if you drew one already. And yes, sometimes that means your deck is out of extra enchants to grab when you're on game 1 (After game 1 you almost always have extra goodies to put in against a deck), but I've rarely had to attack more than twice with Zur to finish a game out, win or lose.
Most of these cards are severely underwhelming unless you know your metagame. If you're in a normal distribution of Modern Decks, most of those enchantments are just not very good. What it basically breaks down into, are two situations against any deck.
1) You're doing your stuff as a control deck, and the opponent is not going to be able to race a 3-5 lifelinker and your smaller dudes, and has no "oops, I win" permanents to get rid of on the board. Now keep in mind, Zur can't swing until turn 4 or 5 in my deck, or turn 5 in the OP of this thread's deck. In this situation you want a Steel on Zur, or if you have Geist, the trigger resolves before blockers so you can swing with both for unblockable Geist.
Spreading seas hitting a manland has been discussed, but I have never been in a situation where Zur can't race a manland with Steels. It may be a situation that exists (Raging Ravine, maybe?), but remember toolboxes can't be there for every situation possible, and the ones that seldom/never happen should be treated as such. Against Tron, chances are by turn 5 you're not going to be doing much against them by hitting a single land of theirs. Running a singleton SS means you want to be fetching the thing with Zur, and at that point in the game you either lost because they assembled Tron and got through your countermagic, or are doing decently well stopping them from playing things.
The other thing has been discussed is getting advantage before Zur dies, or protecting Zur from dying. These both are a little weaker since Zur would always be killed before he can attack, he won't live if the opponent can stop it. That means you're going into the realm of "the opponent needs to top deck an answer immediately." I love Shielding Plax to death as a way of trying to protect Zur, but ultimately it just isn't worth it. Running a 3-mana-draw-1-card-if-they-don't-remove-your-targetted-creature spell had to be cut in the end (and I tried to make it live on in the sideboard, I really clung to that card for a long time). Once again, I believe it is better to just play as if they won't top deck their Path/Decree/Celestial Purge, because percentage-wise you're better off just finishing them quickly.
The one other thing to be said here, is just saving your cards in hand after you land Zur and he's swinging is often the right line of play. You can either save up mana for Remands or save guys for in case they do hit a board clearer. They won't be able to kill Zur in combat with Steel, so you should really be in the clear after he swings.
2) You're in trouble, and need to get rid of some stuff the opponent has. Detention Sphere is perfect for this situation just because it's the swiss army knife of removal. Tokens/creatures/planeswalkers/whatever, it hits it. Now I'm not against running something like Rest in Peace, Threads of Disloyalty, or Stony Silence in the maindeck, but you need to know your metagame is skewed towards one of these in advance, otherwise more often than not you'll be sitting with a dead card in hand.
Lastly, just to emphasize this, the more silver bullets you play, the more watered down the deck will be. You're already playing 2 Steel of the Godheads which are kind of useless without Zur or Geist on the field, Detention Sphere is pretty good when it comes to drawing it randomly, but it still is a 3 cost removal spell when you're playing decks like Affinity, that gets hit by Abrupt Decays when you're playing against Jund.
In conclusion, I play 3 enchantments because while necessary for Zur (and great with him, don't get me wrong), they aren't as good as other cards in the deck. 2 Steels are there just so you can be sure to get one on him if you drew one already. And yes, sometimes that means your deck is out of extra enchants to grab when you're on game 1 (After game 1 you almost always have extra goodies to put in against a deck), but I've rarely had to attack more than twice with Zur to finish a game out, win or lose.
Yeah, too many silver bullets do seem bad. But I wasn't talking about those specifically. I was particularly curious that you weren't running more DSpheres. I assumed that card was a good enough of a catch-all card, where you'd want 2-3 at least. But it makes sense that a card that's 3cmc and relatively easily removed can be a huge setback, and you probably only need to fetch it maybe once or twice anyhow.
You don't think you want/need disruption main? I really liked the idea of Inquisition x4 and Thoughtseize x3, all the while still having a full playset of Paths and an additional 3x Disfigures. What's your take on critical mass of point removal? I see that you have a solid number in the sideboard, but do you not want them game 1?
What's your take on Sleight of Hand vs. Serum Visions? Does it matter?
Sidenote: Kinda surprised the list that went 6-0 didn't run any Remands. Meta-call I guess.
Reprints the one card that people point to when saying that art objectifies women.
Well done Wizards.
Liliana does not objectify women in any way at all. We have gotten to a point in our society that every single picture of a women must be objectifying a women in some negative way......blah blah blah.. That is not the case. (((Sarcasm)))Picture of a girl drinking a milk shake, must be sex related and putting women down, picture of girl sitting on a beach, picture of a girl driving a car, picture of a girl on the moon at a new space station.)))
You have a picture of an attractive strong power women who girls dress up as for anime conventions. What more do you want? The picture is fine, happy to see a reprint. Sick of of seeing people claim that everything in existence must be putting women down. Then all I have to do is replace the word "women" with anything else to get the same mentality; fish, cats, arabs, blacks, jews, men, environment, whites, chinese, old people, etc. It doesn't matter what word I put in. Stop sucking life out of everything man. That artwork of her is awesome. Stop putting stuff down man. Just stop. If the picture was really as negative as you claim she would totally nude, in a kitchen, making sandwiches and giving blow jobs. Her abilities would be horrible as well. +1 do nothing -2 do nothing -6 do nothing. Instead liliana of the veil is an amazing planeswalker comparable to jace, the mind sculpter with great art to appreciate.
My suggestion listen to some comedy radio for a while, pandora is free, youtube is free there is something out there for you. ***** go make fun of somebody. The whole world is so serious and campaigning for some cause, or someones rights, everything is a hate crime, racist, sexist. blah blah blah.
"O no mcdonalds must be slandering a hate crime against skinny people every time they make a big mac." hahaha jeeze You're just someone perpetuating another groups negative perspective that they've made you believe is correct. Look at the picture for a hour and tell me what's wrong with it? I don't see anything.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
I assume you're asking about once you've played Zur, isn't it bad to not have an enchantment (like Phyrexian Arena or similar) to keep us ahead if they draw Supreme Verdict? The one thing I can say is, if they have it, they will have cast it during the 1 turn that Zur is active but hasn't done anything yet. If they didn't have it, that means they're top decking it, and I believe it's better to not pack in more utility enchantments in the maindeck to hedge against a possible topdeck, but if you wanted to throw 1 more in there I can't blame you for it. I've just played a lot of games where I draw something like Phyrexian Arena and wish it were a card that did something more immediately. You will have dead card draws with Steel of the Godhead already.
You also have a lot of ways to deal with Supreme Verdict before you play Zur, regardless of version you play. Tidehollow / Meddling Mage/ Vendilion Clique/ Hand hate can all let you stop it before it hits.
You don't think you want/need disruption main? I really liked the idea of Inquisition x4 and Thoughtseize x3, all the while still having a full playset of Paths and an additional 3x Disfigures.
Sidenote: Kinda surprised the list that went 6-0 didn't run any Remands. Meta-call I guess.
So I think it's kind of an either/or thing on disruption. If you're playing hand hate, you generally want less countermagic (since you want to throw your hand hate out there ASAP usually, which uses up your countermagic mana). I prefer running creatures that disrupt over other forms of disruption, mainly because they do more.
Running 7 flash creatures makes Remand easier to run and keep mana up for. The 3cmc fliers are great because they have some pretty nasty effects while providing good blockers against the decks that you don't need them as much against (Affinity and Infect both can be blown out by a flash flier to block an important creature). Aven Mindcensor in particular has one of the most powerful effects you can have right now, since he hurts Tron and Pod so incredibly badly, or even shorting midrange decks on mana with their fetchlands. But other than that, they speed up your clock, and you can play them at the opponent's end of turn if you didn't get to counter anything.
Hand hate helps Meddling Mage be more effective, but I don't like MM in general. Honestly, Meddling Mage is only good against Tron, and even then it's iffy. Every fair deck and combo deck has ways to kill/bounce him if it matters (including Tron, but they have fewer) to the point where Tidehollow is going to do more 95% of the time. I've played MM before and even with great calls on his card Modern is too full of removal with similar abilities but different names. Lightning Bolt, Lightning Helix, Path to Exile, Dismember, Abrupt Decay, Karn, Oblivion Stone, Pyroclasm, Whip Snare; these are all COMMON removal spells, and I can't think of a single deck that doesn't have multiple removal/bounce spells in it. At the very least, Tidehollow eats one of those and requires an answer to get their other one back. Sure MM can wear a Steel, but that's very seldom going to be game winning (believe me, I've tried).
So as for hand hate vs remand, I think you need to build your deck around it either way. Meddling Mage + hand hate + gitaxian probe or countermagic + flash creatures. I think playing more disruptive creatures gives you better game against more decks, mainly because if their ability does nothing you still get to attack with them.
What's your take on critical mass of point removal? I see that you have a solid number in the sideboard, but do you not want them game 1?
There are enough decks that blank your removal that you don't necessarily want that much removal. Right now I'm running 3x Path + 2x Far//Away + 1 Detention Sphere, and am pretty happy with it. The decks like UWR midrange, Tron, and random combos completely blank a lot of your removal, to the point where I don't want to run 7 instants + 3 Dspheres. I've never really had a problem running this many removal, but yes I do side in more versus certain decks.
What's your take on Sleight of Hand vs. Serum Visions? Does it matter?
Sleight is less of a control card. It basically is the difference between "now" and "a turn from now." In a deck that runs silver bullets (especially after sideboard), you're going to want to find those specific cards. Serum Visions digs 3 cards (4 if you count your next draw) whereas Sleight digs 2 cards (3 if you count your next draw), so you're going to have a better chance of finding what you want with Serum Visions. This is a huge deal when you're looking for something like Stony Silence, Rest in Peace, or Circle of Protection: Red. Sleight is better if you want to play the card you grab on that turn, but you're paying a mana already to find it, so may not have mana available to play it.
All of this said, I don't want to come off as saying my version is better. I'm sure both lists can be improved, but I have done a lot of testing on this deck and can hopefully help people before they get to common pitfalls.
All of this said, I don't want to come off as saying my version is better. I'm sure both lists can be improved, but I have done a lot of testing on this deck and can hopefully help people before they get to common pitfalls.
Not at all! I appreciate the insight. I've never really sat down and played Modern (only watched), so in-depth knowledge of the format is not something I have.
And yeah, appreciate the tips on the deck; as wasting additional hours only to fall into the same problems previous players have had is kinda pointless, IMO.
Reprints the one card that people point to when saying that art objectifies women.
Well done Wizards.
Liliana does not objectify women in any way at all. We have gotten to a point in our society that every single picture of a women must be objectifying a women in some negative way......blah blah blah.. That is not the case. (((Sarcasm)))Picture of a girl drinking a milk shake, must be sex related and putting women down, picture of girl sitting on a beach, picture of a girl driving a car, picture of a girl on the moon at a new space station.)))
You have a picture of an attractive strong power women who girls dress up as for anime conventions. What more do you want? The picture is fine, happy to see a reprint. Sick of of seeing people claim that everything in existence must be putting women down. Then all I have to do is replace the word "women" with anything else to get the same mentality; fish, cats, arabs, blacks, jews, men, environment, whites, chinese, old people, etc. It doesn't matter what word I put in. Stop sucking life out of everything man. That artwork of her is awesome. Stop putting stuff down man. Just stop. If the picture was really as negative as you claim she would totally nude, in a kitchen, making sandwiches and giving blow jobs. Her abilities would be horrible as well. +1 do nothing -2 do nothing -6 do nothing. Instead liliana of the veil is an amazing planeswalker comparable to jace, the mind sculpter with great art to appreciate.
My suggestion listen to some comedy radio for a while, pandora is free, youtube is free there is something out there for you. ***** go make fun of somebody. The whole world is so serious and campaigning for some cause, or someones rights, everything is a hate crime, racist, sexist. blah blah blah.
"O no mcdonalds must be slandering a hate crime against skinny people every time they make a big mac." hahaha jeeze You're just someone perpetuating another groups negative perspective that they've made you believe is correct. Look at the picture for a hour and tell me what's wrong with it? I don't see anything.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
someone on the interwebs bought all the zurs. boooo you, mystery person.
I picked up 4 copies of them while they were below 3$ - Seemed like a good investment after it went 6-0 in a premier event. They're up to 4 tix now on MTGO, but depending on demand, it may go higher.
His constructed rating is 1700, but his limited rating is 1630. So maybe he's not a pro.
Another strange manabase choice. This guy plays loose with his lands, Eiganjo protects Geist from Pyroclasms and Zur from direct burn (and both of them with random blocks), but Shizo can only really help your Geists. It's pretty decent at that, but man, I gotta say it's pretty greedy.
I'm watching this guy's replays and he makes some questionable plays, like casting a clique on his main phase when his UWR opponent has all his lands untapped. He also had Minamo, School at Water's Edge, which made his glacial fortress come into play tapped. He also kept in threads vs the UWR deck as he gained control of a snapcaster.
He also double surgical'd his opponent and still lost. I don't like that card.
I'm guessing he just wins because of geist. Though i've only watched a few replays.
I'm starting to write an in depth Primer for this deck, I'll probably highlight 3 different styles (Meddling Mage + Probe, the list in the OP that goes heavy hand hate, and my list with more flash creatures + remand), and Gerry Thompson and LSV's articles on it. If anyone has anything else they would like added or discussed, I'll be sure to hit it, just let me know here or via PM.
MTGO = Magic the Gathering Online
MODO = Magic Online (with) Digital Objects
They refer to the same thing.
RE: The deck- I am not super enthusiastic about decks that revolove so heavily around a single tutor (even if it is a creature). Granted, you still have geist to beat face with, but there just always seems to be something so tempermental about decks like this.
That said, if I was playing a deck like this I think I would try and find room for Ghostly Prison.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
Ghostly Prison comes in and out of the sideboard, it's good against some decks (mainly Twin or Affinity) but both of them have ways to deal with it maindeck (Boomerang and Cranial Plating, respectively). It's good, but Stony Silence is better against Affinity (bonus: awesome against tron) and instant speed removal is much better against Twin (and many other decks).
The deck wins without seeing Zur. In my list I only play 3 since he really isn't essential. Geist + control is a good enough plan for most decks to win, but if you can land and swing with Zur, you basically win. It isn't an X card combo deck, it's a control deck that has a large source of card advantage.
While I understand the reasoning, it's extremely unlikely in practice that you'd rather draw a card than +2/+2 Zur. If they don't have something you want to Detention Sphere or Threads of Disloyalty, chances are pretty good that all you're looking to do is close out the game fast. Steel is pretty much the only card you'd want there, as it gives lifelink as well as damage. Hitting for 3 or 5 with lifelink is enough to negate any damage they'd do with their manlands. It isn't a bad card, persay, I just don't want to see people overvaluing it before they even play the deck, because it does water down your draws after all (pun fully intended).
Geist with Steel on him is one of the most disgusting interactions in all of Modern. Geist without Steel on him is a 3-4 turn clock (usually 3, everyone runs fetches + Shocks or you'll get a Snapcaster or something in there).
As for toolboxing the deck, I fully support 3 enchantments total in the deck, but many people like more. You don't really need to have something for every occasion in here as Detention Sphere + Steel of the Godhead basically do everything you'd want. After sideboard is where you'd want the extra enchants unless the metagame shifts enough to the point where you know for a fact that something will crush people (as I think Rest in Peace has now).
Yeah, against an open board, my Zur sequence is typically Arena into Rise of the Hobgoblins. Rise of the Hobgoblins is subpar in my opening hand (like Steel of the Godhead), but man, when Zur finds it, it closes out games fast.
River of Tears over Darkslick Shores (and just in general)
Temple of Deceit and Silence
I know they're nice lands in general, but I don't know modern very well, so I don't "get" the landbases quite yet.
Also, you decided to omit Creeping Tar Pit from this list because of the meta? Why? What's up with the meta?
You referring to Darkslick Shores or River of Tears?
Because when River enters, it's Black mana.
The only primary upside I see with River is that it comes down untapped in the later turns. My question is how important is this?
Actually the turn you play it it will produce black, perfect for the turn 1 discard spells. After that, it seems pretty good because it's blue for your instants, or else you tap it for mana first (if you get a second turn white land for Meddling Mage, etc.).
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I'm not actually the person who is highlighted for getting 5th. I've been playing the deck for 2 years, however, and the ongoing thread can be found here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22078-Deck-Zur-the-Enchanter
My land choices are completely different from the one that got 15th, and I think my choices are much, much better and more stable. This is my manabase:
I believe the person who got 5th adapted the list that Gerry Thompson wrote about on Starcitygames, which was originally found because of my placements in consecutive daily events. I also believe that the list that got 5th had budget restrictions and wasn't running a very good list, but that is open for debate.
I definitely like this land list a lot better.
I don't get your main deck though; it's so different compared to other Zur lists I've seen thus far. You're running so many creatures and next to no enchantments main. What's your reasoning? Is Zur *effectively* just for game 2 and 3 to pull out silver bullets?
ah, my fault. i was trying to remember the card from memory.
Being enchantment light is due to playing many many games to realize what is and isn't necessary. For example, in the maindeck I've run Threads of Disloyalty, Shielding Plax, Rest in Peace, Blind Obedience, Ghostly Prison, Declaration of Naught, Prison Term, Spreading Seas, Security Blockade, Phyrexian Arena, Luminarch Ascension, and many more fringe cards.
Most of these cards are severely underwhelming unless you know your metagame. If you're in a normal distribution of Modern Decks, most of those enchantments are just not very good. What it basically breaks down into, are two situations against any deck.
1) You're doing your stuff as a control deck, and the opponent is not going to be able to race a 3-5 lifelinker and your smaller dudes, and has no "oops, I win" permanents to get rid of on the board. Now keep in mind, Zur can't swing until turn 4 or 5 in my deck, or turn 5 in the OP of this thread's deck. In this situation you want a Steel on Zur, or if you have Geist, the trigger resolves before blockers so you can swing with both for unblockable Geist.
Spreading seas hitting a manland has been discussed, but I have never been in a situation where Zur can't race a manland with Steels. It may be a situation that exists (Raging Ravine, maybe?), but remember toolboxes can't be there for every situation possible, and the ones that seldom/never happen should be treated as such. Against Tron, chances are by turn 5 you're not going to be doing much against them by hitting a single land of theirs. Running a singleton SS means you want to be fetching the thing with Zur, and at that point in the game you either lost because they assembled Tron and got through your countermagic, or are doing decently well stopping them from playing things.
The other thing has been discussed is getting advantage before Zur dies, or protecting Zur from dying. These both are a little weaker since Zur would always be killed before he can attack, he won't live if the opponent can stop it. That means you're going into the realm of "the opponent needs to top deck an answer immediately." I love Shielding Plax to death as a way of trying to protect Zur, but ultimately it just isn't worth it. Running a 3-mana-draw-1-card-if-they-don't-remove-your-targetted-creature spell had to be cut in the end (and I tried to make it live on in the sideboard, I really clung to that card for a long time). Once again, I believe it is better to just play as if they won't top deck their Path/Decree/Celestial Purge, because percentage-wise you're better off just finishing them quickly.
The one other thing to be said here, is just saving your cards in hand after you land Zur and he's swinging is often the right line of play. You can either save up mana for Remands or save guys for in case they do hit a board clearer. They won't be able to kill Zur in combat with Steel, so you should really be in the clear after he swings.
2) You're in trouble, and need to get rid of some stuff the opponent has. Detention Sphere is perfect for this situation just because it's the swiss army knife of removal. Tokens/creatures/planeswalkers/whatever, it hits it. Now I'm not against running something like Rest in Peace, Threads of Disloyalty, or Stony Silence in the maindeck, but you need to know your metagame is skewed towards one of these in advance, otherwise more often than not you'll be sitting with a dead card in hand.
Lastly, just to emphasize this, the more silver bullets you play, the more watered down the deck will be. You're already playing 2 Steel of the Godheads which are kind of useless without Zur or Geist on the field, Detention Sphere is pretty good when it comes to drawing it randomly, but it still is a 3 cost removal spell when you're playing decks like Affinity, that gets hit by Abrupt Decays when you're playing against Jund.
In conclusion, I play 3 enchantments because while necessary for Zur (and great with him, don't get me wrong), they aren't as good as other cards in the deck. 2 Steels are there just so you can be sure to get one on him if you drew one already. And yes, sometimes that means your deck is out of extra enchants to grab when you're on game 1 (After game 1 you almost always have extra goodies to put in against a deck), but I've rarely had to attack more than twice with Zur to finish a game out, win or lose.
UBRGrixis ControlUBR | URPhoenixUR | UWMiraclesUW |GBRJundGBR | UBFaeriesUB | UBWAd NauseumUBW |GBRWBlueless ShadowGBRW |
MTGA
UBRGrixis ControlUBR | UTempoU
Yeah, too many silver bullets do seem bad. But I wasn't talking about those specifically. I was particularly curious that you weren't running more DSpheres. I assumed that card was a good enough of a catch-all card, where you'd want 2-3 at least. But it makes sense that a card that's 3cmc and relatively easily removed can be a huge setback, and you probably only need to fetch it maybe once or twice anyhow.
You don't think you want/need disruption main? I really liked the idea of Inquisition x4 and Thoughtseize x3, all the while still having a full playset of Paths and an additional 3x Disfigures. What's your take on critical mass of point removal? I see that you have a solid number in the sideboard, but do you not want them game 1?
What's your take on Sleight of Hand vs. Serum Visions? Does it matter?
Sidenote: Kinda surprised the list that went 6-0 didn't run any Remands. Meta-call I guess.
I assume you're asking about once you've played Zur, isn't it bad to not have an enchantment (like Phyrexian Arena or similar) to keep us ahead if they draw Supreme Verdict? The one thing I can say is, if they have it, they will have cast it during the 1 turn that Zur is active but hasn't done anything yet. If they didn't have it, that means they're top decking it, and I believe it's better to not pack in more utility enchantments in the maindeck to hedge against a possible topdeck, but if you wanted to throw 1 more in there I can't blame you for it. I've just played a lot of games where I draw something like Phyrexian Arena and wish it were a card that did something more immediately. You will have dead card draws with Steel of the Godhead already.
You also have a lot of ways to deal with Supreme Verdict before you play Zur, regardless of version you play. Tidehollow / Meddling Mage/ Vendilion Clique/ Hand hate can all let you stop it before it hits.
So I think it's kind of an either/or thing on disruption. If you're playing hand hate, you generally want less countermagic (since you want to throw your hand hate out there ASAP usually, which uses up your countermagic mana). I prefer running creatures that disrupt over other forms of disruption, mainly because they do more.
Running 7 flash creatures makes Remand easier to run and keep mana up for. The 3cmc fliers are great because they have some pretty nasty effects while providing good blockers against the decks that you don't need them as much against (Affinity and Infect both can be blown out by a flash flier to block an important creature). Aven Mindcensor in particular has one of the most powerful effects you can have right now, since he hurts Tron and Pod so incredibly badly, or even shorting midrange decks on mana with their fetchlands. But other than that, they speed up your clock, and you can play them at the opponent's end of turn if you didn't get to counter anything.
Hand hate helps Meddling Mage be more effective, but I don't like MM in general. Honestly, Meddling Mage is only good against Tron, and even then it's iffy. Every fair deck and combo deck has ways to kill/bounce him if it matters (including Tron, but they have fewer) to the point where Tidehollow is going to do more 95% of the time. I've played MM before and even with great calls on his card Modern is too full of removal with similar abilities but different names. Lightning Bolt, Lightning Helix, Path to Exile, Dismember, Abrupt Decay, Karn, Oblivion Stone, Pyroclasm, Whip Snare; these are all COMMON removal spells, and I can't think of a single deck that doesn't have multiple removal/bounce spells in it. At the very least, Tidehollow eats one of those and requires an answer to get their other one back. Sure MM can wear a Steel, but that's very seldom going to be game winning (believe me, I've tried).
So as for hand hate vs remand, I think you need to build your deck around it either way. Meddling Mage + hand hate + gitaxian probe or countermagic + flash creatures. I think playing more disruptive creatures gives you better game against more decks, mainly because if their ability does nothing you still get to attack with them.
There are enough decks that blank your removal that you don't necessarily want that much removal. Right now I'm running 3x Path + 2x Far//Away + 1 Detention Sphere, and am pretty happy with it. The decks like UWR midrange, Tron, and random combos completely blank a lot of your removal, to the point where I don't want to run 7 instants + 3 Dspheres. I've never really had a problem running this many removal, but yes I do side in more versus certain decks.
Sleight is less of a control card. It basically is the difference between "now" and "a turn from now." In a deck that runs silver bullets (especially after sideboard), you're going to want to find those specific cards. Serum Visions digs 3 cards (4 if you count your next draw) whereas Sleight digs 2 cards (3 if you count your next draw), so you're going to have a better chance of finding what you want with Serum Visions. This is a huge deal when you're looking for something like Stony Silence, Rest in Peace, or Circle of Protection: Red. Sleight is better if you want to play the card you grab on that turn, but you're paying a mana already to find it, so may not have mana available to play it.
All of this said, I don't want to come off as saying my version is better. I'm sure both lists can be improved, but I have done a lot of testing on this deck and can hopefully help people before they get to common pitfalls.
Not at all! I appreciate the insight. I've never really sat down and played Modern (only watched), so in-depth knowledge of the format is not something I have.
And yeah, appreciate the tips on the deck; as wasting additional hours only to fall into the same problems previous players have had is kinda pointless, IMO.
I picked up 4 copies of them while they were below 3$ - Seemed like a good investment after it went 6-0 in a premier event. They're up to 4 tix now on MTGO, but depending on demand, it may go higher.
He had Shizo, Death's Storehouse main deck.
His constructed rating is 1700, but his limited rating is 1630. So maybe he's not a pro.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Another strange manabase choice. This guy plays loose with his lands, Eiganjo protects Geist from Pyroclasms and Zur from direct burn (and both of them with random blocks), but Shizo can only really help your Geists. It's pretty decent at that, but man, I gotta say it's pretty greedy.
He also double surgical'd his opponent and still lost. I don't like that card.
I'm guessing he just wins because of geist. Though i've only watched a few replays.
Overall I really like this deck. The pilot from the OP making misplays only means the deck probably had even more potential than his results show.
Draft My Cube!