@shelldell
Unfortunately I actually haven't had a chance to play against those two precise matchups, but have been matching against grixis control/UB control, which the deck does fine against. I actually used to build mono white human soldiers, but that deck forces you to run far more bears (2cc for 2/2) and lots of other cards that don't provide a lot of power for the mana cost investment. I was unable to race other aggro decks, nor did I apply enough pressure to close out the game fast enough against control.
@Stompbee
Yeah, both Hada Freeblade and Kazandu Blademaster are fine cards on their own, but with so much upside. As long as you draw 2 allies, this greatly increases value, and with 12 copies in our deck, it is very likely to have 2 allies or more by turn 3 (assuming no mulligans). I do recall a hilarious game where I had an opening hand of 3 Expedition Envoys after a mulligan to 6 though, but the chances are minimal for such occurrences.
And yeah it must always feel bad to have to cast premium removal on cards like Hada Freeblade I like to think that almost every creature in the deck has the potential to grow larger
And about the midgame, you nailed it - our 1 mana 2 mana "tarmogoyfs" reach insane sizes and easily outpower opposing 4cc 5cc drops. Even a turn 3 tasigur wasn't a problem.
I was between Proclamation of Rebirth and Return to the Ranks, and honestly both can work - but I decided to roll with the latter because bringing back multiple Thalia's Lieutenant is so much more game breaking than say, Champion of the Parish. But I do think its down to personal preference!
1) Martyr of sands is a hilariously good card in this deck. Dropping him on turn 1, and then saccing him, is ALWAYS worth it. I had a game against dredge where i had t1 and t2 martyrs, and put myself up over 50 life. He just looked at me and cried a bit into his hand.
2) Athreos out of the sideboard is great against any creature control deck. Kill my creatures, back to my hand, rinse and repeat... i used this with a thalia's lieutenant to pump my whole team up by 4 in a game again jund. Your 5/6 tarmos look really nice, shame they're not 6/7 Thraben Inspectors.
3) Aether Vials and Cavern of Souls are my next purchases for this deck.
4) I'm dropping my anafenzas as soon as I get some aether vials.
I'm debating bout that, but honestly, i think mentor of the meek does a better job for the most part. No life loss. I almost always have mana floating free, and i drop creatures like nobody's business already. Plus with all the white pumps i have, the mentor usually drops as a 4/4 or bigger.
You play some pretty weak cards (Mentor of the Meek, Cavalry Pegasus, Knight of the White Orchid) or cards that have no (or little) synergy with the deck (Martyr of Sands, Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit and Field Marshal which is a rather weak lord anyway imho).
Martyr has decent synergy - it's a human, can gain a good amount of life if needed, and drops as a 1 drop. When you start pumping the way this deck does, it gets to be a 3/3 or bigger consistently.
Anafenza is left over from my first iteration, it's going as soon as I get some aether vials.
Mentor is currently being playtested, it does decent, but may eventually be switched depending on how i go.
Calvary pegasus is basically an oh ***** for most opponents, it takes a level board position and generally puts me on a 1 hit kill. Evasion on the attack is great.
Knight is an allstar card.. running as few lands as i do (19) it means it allows me to draw an extra land in the early/mid game phase, and it's got first strike, so it's a solid blocker if needed.
Field Marshall isn't an incredible lord, but it is a direct white comparison to merfolk.
Honestly, this deck plays much more like a white merfolk than a WW, try it out.
I doubt it can really compete with established decks like Jund or Dredge consistently (and not just steal a game occasionally).
Honestly, often enough, tarmos and other big creatures can't attack through my creatures, it's not unusual for me to be fielding creatures that are 5/5 or bigger by turn 4.
Running Black just for Athreos, God of Passage is not taking advantage of the color at all.
I agree, I will be splashing more black in the future, just have to decide on what.
Also Cathedral of War is a terrible land coming into play tapped and not providing colored mana.
Its only there until I can get cavern of souls, but at $75 a pop, that's a bit out of my budget right now.
The problem with Mentor of the Meek is that, once you have enough pump effects on board, your creatures will enter the battlefield with more than 2 power, so it wound't trigger the hability to pay and draw.
All the white pums you have, @Jonh_dune, do worse to the idea of using the Mentor.
@StompBee, you could also splash U for using Reflector Mage or Meddling Mage, both of them not only are humans that are protected by Brave the Elements, but also helps a lot when you need to stabilize the board or simply destroy some decks.
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Sorry for the bad english, not my native language!!!
I messed around with a Soul Sisters hybrid recently, trying to see if I could get Lone Rider to shine with the sisters and Lightning Helix. My (admittedly limited) testing suggested that Lone Rider is only good if you can reliably gain 3 life from other sources to flip Rider the same turn he's played, ideally without him actually needing to attack. Otherwise 2 CMC for a 1/1 gives too little tempo for a deck that's otherwise rather anemic due to the space taken up by the Sisters. I'd hoped that he'd come into his own as a concentrated beater but even after building around him he just didn't flip reliably enough, or presented the opponent too many opportunities to kill the Rider before it flipped at the end of the turn. I hope you have more luck.
Does rider flip off a recursion and gain 4 off of ojutai's command? Effects happen in the order they are printed. May be worth testing in a sister build as you can return a pridemate with triggers on the stack too to have him come back much stronger. (Not a human I know, but just satin').
I've been testing bw humans since the original Innistrad. I found Xathrid to be sweet but he eventually worked his way out of the deck due to the amount of zoo, burn, infect, boggles, etc I've face. The 3 mana wasn't worth it in those cases. I found blood soaked to just be a terrible top deck in late game decks like ux control and tron so I cut hum. However, I've been considering putting xathrid back in as a one of for Mikaues but I like only having 2 3cmc and 2 4 cmc for bob and mikaeus works very well with skirsdag and lieutenant. But giving all humans pseudo undying is a sweet deal.
A note on Skirsdag High Priest, I've said this before but he gives your creatures evasion, as long as you have 2 creatures tap the creature your swinging with isn't getting blocked.
The deck is rather strange with 4x Collective Effort (a good card imho) in the maindeck over more obvious options like Path to Exile/Dromoka's Command and relies almost (C.Effort can remove big creatures) solely on Fiend Hunter for removal (which is not enough in my opinion).
The only reason why Wear/Tear is better than Fragmentize is the instant speed. Still, it could be used as an ultra budget option, or if your meta is full of affinity or enchantment heavy decks.
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Sorry for the bad english, not my native language!!!
It's a nice list, but i cannot agree with the 4 silverblade paladins. Paying 3 for a creature with no inmediant impact on the board, that also dies to bolt, dosen't seems good to me. Maybe some fiend hunter as extra removal???
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Sorry for the bad english, not my native language!!!
I'm not saying that double strike isn't a good advantage. But it's true that if our opponent removes the paladin after designed blocker, mid combat, it's not gonna end well for us.
That being said, it's true that having to much 3CMC could be devasteting for this kind of deck. Maybe adding Aether Vial could help to have more consistency with our drops??? Paladin En-Vec is always a good chose, since he dodges a so much removal, and is pretty much exangeable with Mirran Crusader for the spot.
Dissagre. The humans tribe it's more than capable of dealing heavy damage to any oponent. If you check the blitz humans deck, you'll found decks with a consistent turn 4 kill, 3 if our oponent helps us.
If you're using that much 3CMC, you're not aiming for the turn 4. And, if you're not trying to win fast, the you'll need more options to hold on, or to disrupt your opponent.
Burning-Tree Emissary in a 5 color list? Wow. Also, I can understand Mayor at 2x. I've trimmed him to 3x in my list right now. I think his list would be stronger if he ditched green altogether, though.
We've seen a decent amount of variation in the lists that have posted results in the last month or two. It gives me hope that there's enough potential raw power in the human core to go somewhere since it's had tastes of success even without coming to an optimized consensus list. Also it seems pretty clear that Mantis Rider is the nuts.
What ? Lightning Bolt over Path to Exile ??? Yup. 2 reasons :
- With Brawler, something happens : I want a red source very early (in case I don't have a Cavern to fix any mana issue). It's more common to have a real red source and be able to cast Bolt.
- Brawler has trample, a Rider + Skyknight have flying, Mauler accelerates my tempo. The whole is more aggro.
Bolt fits to a different strategy than Path : I want to kill before I have to interact.
The whole package makes sense, as well as my previous package made sense too. It's meta dependant, sometimes one config will be better than the other. The idea is to ignore blockers and ignore big fatties. Bolt will be bad at killing Tarmos and big stuff, but will kill Lili and finish the opponent. What about the other choices ?
Lyev Skyknight is a better beater than Hanweir Garrison because it flies over the grounders. Garrison often gets chumped, so you don't even attack with him sometimes. Both cards lean towards the same "side" though, and they're good in different situations. Thalia, Heretic Cathar isn't better than Skyknight at preventing a creature from blocking. And Thalia has no evasion herself. It's good to have choices right ?
The "other side" is about Reflector Mage and Fiend Hunter, creatures that are more interactive but less agressive. They're on the same side as Path ot Exile. Stronger interaction but less reach.
Now Lightning Mauler, on the aggro side of things, is very good with Collected Company. I wanted to include the card because I knew it was good in the other lists, but I couldn't figure out what to cut. With more red spells, I just needed to change Flooded Strand by Wooded Foothills, to ensure I can fetch a red source. it makes the whole deck more consistent, as opposed to a build in between (Path + red creatures for example).
Mauler revealed by Coco is great, it makes Lyev Skyknight as aggro as Mantis Rider, Brawler attacking right away is great too, and overall it helps racing the other fast decks of the format.
Reflecting Pool instead of Canopy and a last fetchland is a nice way to shore the Burn/aggros MUs. This manabase is young and in early testing, but it works for now, so I can't be too far from what I want.
I have also moved away from Garrison. It has a high payoff ceiling when supported by other cards against the right decks but it's slow and often outclassed as you mentioned. For the decks where you need to grind I've been enjoying a copy of Eternal Witness in the side. I've slotted it over the second Mirran Crusader as I side it in for GBx as well.
I find myself trimming Mayor of Avabruck down. As a 1/1 you usually don't want to put him out early to prioritize getting your beaters out. I've found 2-3 copies to better support drawing him later. I've continued to enjoy Phantasmal Image in the slot the 4th Mayor freed up. Yes, it's occasionally awkward but to me it's overall worth having the 5th Rider / Brawler / Lieutenant. And if you're missing Path against midrange you could also copy their biggest creature with Image. Maybe worth revisiting in your current list if you haven't done so already. Or perhaps the fourth Mauler might serve you better.
EDIT: I'm not sure I agree with 21 lands. CoCo is the heart of this build and playing it 1-2 turns late hurts your Tempo more than drawing an extra land IMO. Only 2 basics makes fetching more painful and further softens you to Path / Blood Moon. I'd either run another basic (Mountain to fetch with Mesa?) or a Horizon Canopy if you're really worried about flooding. Or you could run Jace for filtering as you mentioned. I think the combination of 21 lands and 2x Reflecting Pools is going to force you to mull more, and being down a card more often probably offsets the benefit you gain from leaner topdecks. Just my two cents.
I'm still up in the air about Skyknight vs Reflector Mage for the purposes of racing, but here's what I'll mess around with:
Very happy to see you're on the same track as I am !
I've been enjoying a copy of Eternal Witness in the side. I've slotted it over the second Mirran Crusader as I side it in for GBx as well.
I've been further by putting 3 Eternal Witness, and no Mirran Crusader at all ! My reasoning is the following :
Witness getting back Coco or a flyer is almost always stronger than Crusader in my experience. Jund, Blue Moon and Grixis can kill Crusader too easily, and Abzan decks play Lingering Souls or bigger cards like Restoration Angel.
The one tension that exists is Rest in Peace. I assume the opponent will discard, counter or destroy it if possible, if not, Witness becomes awkward.
I find myself trimming Mayor of Avabruck down. As a 1/1 you usually don't want to put him out early to prioritize getting your beaters out. I've found 2-3 copies to better support drawing him later. I've continued to enjoy Phantasmal Image in the slot the 4th Mayor freed up.
Yes I feel you. I already cut a Mayor for a 4th Mauler. I agree with the fact he's awkward in your opening, now we have at least 8 2-drops that we wanna cast before him. We slow roll him until the last moment.
And if you're missing Path against midrange you could also copy their biggest creature with Image. Maybe worth revisiting in your current list if you haven't done so already. Or perhaps the fourth Mauler might serve you better.
Indeed, Phantasmal Image may serve me better than the 4th Mauler, since the latter is never targeted by removals so it sticks and is ready to soulbond anything that etb later on. I'll try him for sure.
I'm not sure I agree with 21 lands
I understand, but so far, I struggle to find evidence that forces me to add a land really. In my testing, I don't miss lands. That being said, 22 is perfectly fine and might be the way to go after all. Because it's not only about Coco, it's also about mana tensions between Bolt, Brawler, Champ, Rider, etc... Playing a 22nd land might help flooding a bit more and that could incidentally help our spells be cast on curve.
All in all, we pretty much agree on everything.
I'll talk about the SB later.
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
Can you speak about any specific matchups where Lyev Skyknight has outperformed Reflector Mage?
Comparing the two:
Skyknight is better against larger creatures with useful ETB abilities (Finks, Prime Time, Resto, Thought-Knot, Skyspawner, Drowner) but Reflector handles troublesome passive abilities (All Lords, Bob, Eidolon, Kalitas, Master of Waves), growing +1/+1 counter creatures or otherwise invested creatures (Scooze, Ravager, Flipped Delver etc), or cost-cheated / flipped creaures (Delve fatties, Dredge freebies).
Skyknight can shut down a planeswalker for a turn, usually Liliana, Nahiri, and Karn. It can also delay an Engineered Explosives or Oblivion Stone activation by a turn. Are there any other common, noteworthy targets?
Skyknight locks a permanent down for one turn. Reflector Mage can stop a (non-haste) creature from attacking you or blocking your threats for two turns and requires the opponent to spend mana re-casting the creature. At best, it can stop the opponent from playing several copies of the same creature. The bounce also synergizes with Meddling Mage, if you're running that.
Skyknight gives you 3 power in the air, at best giving you a steady 3+ damage per turn. However, on its own it will trade with Modern's considerably cheaper flyers such as spirit tokens, flipped delvers, and vault skirge. It also dies to any 1-2 damage ping effect and will rarely escape sweeper range. Reflector Mage has a bigger base butt and can serve as an situational blocker, but only attacks for 2+ on the ground.
Skyknight overall has a slightly broader lock effect and can push more damage through if the sky is clear and he avoids ping effects. Reflector Mage can get blocked on the ground and can only lock creatures but its lock is a stronger tempo play and will likely save you more life, especially if you bounce a fatty.
Match-ups I'd rather have Reflector in:
Jund/Abzan
Dredge
Merfolk
Grixis Delver
Affinity
Match-ups I'd rather have Skyknight in:
Jeskai Control
Tron
Zoo/Burn and hastey aggro
Bant Eldrazi and flicker decks
Titanshift
(Unlisted match-ups could go either way)
It's probably a meta call. I think Reflector excels at some more common matchups in an open meta. It's interesting that one of Skyknight's main selling points is locking Liliana, but I'd still prefer having Reflector Mage in GBx matchups to help handle Bob, Scooze, Kalitas, Lingering Souls, Tasigur, and stall their main clock, Goyf, for a full two turns.
If your meta is swamped with Bant Eldrazi I think running Skyknight (and Path over Bolt) makes a lot of sense. I haven't tested against Eldrazi yet, though. It'd also help a lot more in the Tron matchup, but I'm not sure that's close enough to being winnable to devote resources to. From what I can tell Nahiri's popularity is on the decline at the moment, and I think using Reflector Mage's butt as a blocker in the RGx aggro matchups is still probably useful even if the haste weakens the tempo gains from his bounce effect.
Overall I think Bolt + Reflector Mage both compliment a tempo strategy and are overall better suited to an open meta so that's probably what I'll be going with for now.
p.s. foil Lightning Mauler looks dope. I got it on accident from a random cart optimization but now I'm so glad it worked out that way.
Skyknight can trade with a flyer equipped with Plating, Mage can't. Skyknight can hit over Ravager, a Champ and a Master.
Mage blocks Zoo better, can attack then, and the bounce effect is slightly more appropriate. Skyknight is forced to trade.
Also you completely forget to talka about synergies and tempo with the creatures we play along with the chosen 3-drop. Experience tells stories !
VS Affi, you're happy to trade with Skirge or Nexus, because Collected Company will win you the midgame, so trading resources is a trade up for us. If you reflect them, they'll play them again at some point, and that pesky Plating will race you. That's why I already said I prefered Fiend Hunter over Mage VS Affi.
Lightning Mauler adds to the power of evasive creatures, Brawler, and Skyknight here. If you play Mage, yeah cool you have a 2/3 grounder attacking. You'll have a comparable feeling to the one you have when you attack with Hanweir Garrison into a bigger blocker.
Along with Mantis Rider, you win games by flying over the opponent like Affi does. Does Affi complains because Skirge runs into Lingering Souls ? I don't think so, and the reason is simple : they play a critical mass of flyers and stand-alone good grounders, so they can still win through spirits. They have Plating and Overseer, we have Thalia's Lieutenant and Mayor of Avabruck to grow the 3/1 into a 4/2.
Mage will never be the priority of a removal spell, Skyknight will. That should tell something too...
So, in an open meta like you say, I don't think a simple comparison of their ability is sufficient to draw a clear conclusion. What is true is that Mage is less aggro than Skyknight. If the meta wants us to play the control player more often, Mage is the way to go. If we can race most of the format and have an efficient SB against the faster decks, then Skyknight is the way to go.
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
We're on the same page that Skyknight synergizes with Lightning Mauler to do more for speeding up your own clock compared to Reflector Mage. And I cede the point that Skyknight could handle affinity better, your points make sense.
Thinking about this more, CoCo Humans will usually (almost always?) default to the role of "Control" against leaner aggro decks who are capable of killing roughly a turn earlier than we are. The burden is on us to slow their clock enough to stall them into the mid game. Rider's Vigilence helps here, and as you mentioned, having another blocker in the air via Skyknight can slow their clock by blocking a lethal potentially-plated attacker. In this instance constricting the air and generally keeping plating away slows their clock down more than bouncing a single attacker for two turns.
Would there be some advantage to running a 2/2 split of Skyknight and Reflector Mage? Normally this would just be a hit to consistency but I wonder if CoCo's card selection might help us find the one that's best for the matchup often enough that there's a net benefit.
Also, Chris Dann (author of the recent 5c list) noted that he chose to run Hurkyl's Recall over Stony Silence as a tool against Affinity because it let him play an aggressive drop on T2 and then play Recall later once he'd set up his board a bit. This makes a lot of sense to me, though Stony Silence is more useful vs. Tron & Lantern.
Would there be some advantage to running a 2/2 split of Skyknight and Reflector Mage?
Hard to tell, I think it's fine to stick with one side of the balance and get used to playing with it. It makes SB adjustments easier too.
Chris Dann (author of the recent 5c list) noted that he chose to run Hurkyl's Recall over Stony Silence as a tool against Affinity because it let him play an aggressive drop on T2 and then play Recall later once he'd set up his board a bit.
Both choices seem fine and once again, it influences the rest of the SB. I do believe at least 1 Fracturing Gust must be in the SB to beat prison decks, Bridge, Ghostly Prison, multiple hate post-SB, etc... Other players will prefer Wear // Tear. I think all in all, these are fine choices that show the player is on the right track.
About the manabase, I start to feel what you told me. I cut the 2 Reflecting Pools for 2 Razorverge Thicket. At that point, Wooded Foothills for Steam Vents is more appropriate than the Hallowed Fountain I used to play (and which always was the last shockland I wanted to fetch for). List above edited.
I also agree with you and others (at my huge surprise) that Mayor is a bit of a liability in the early game. Now with Mauler and Brawler, it's 12 2-drops that are played before Mayor in my list.
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
I can't do deck tags as I'm on mobile. I'll add them later.
This is my mono white humans list I'm playing currently. I've top 8'd every local event I've played in with mono white and also won my pptq. My field is pretty competitive and I'm gearing up for the gp in Dallas and the rptq in December.
In my testing smuggler's copter is great. Good versus multiple decks. I recommend trying it.
My issues are what I want in the board.
I'm not sold on stony silence despite being killer against affinity. There re not too many other decks I want it against especially with my board configuration. So I need to fill the two spots in the board.
I'm also considering splashing a few green cards because of the mana base.
Thoughts or questions?
Counts : 60 main / 13 sideboard
Creatures:24
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Icatian Javelineers
2 Kytheon, Hero of Akros
1 Mikaeus, the Lunarch
4 Thraben Inspector
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Abzan Falconer
Spells:15
3 Brave the Elements
4 Path to Exile
4 Gather the Townsfolk
3 Smuggler's Copter
1 Ajani, Caller of the Pride
Unfortunately I actually haven't had a chance to play against those two precise matchups, but have been matching against grixis control/UB control, which the deck does fine against. I actually used to build mono white human soldiers, but that deck forces you to run far more bears (2cc for 2/2) and lots of other cards that don't provide a lot of power for the mana cost investment. I was unable to race other aggro decks, nor did I apply enough pressure to close out the game fast enough against control.
@Stompbee
Yeah, both Hada Freeblade and Kazandu Blademaster are fine cards on their own, but with so much upside. As long as you draw 2 allies, this greatly increases value, and with 12 copies in our deck, it is very likely to have 2 allies or more by turn 3 (assuming no mulligans). I do recall a hilarious game where I had an opening hand of 3 Expedition Envoys after a mulligan to 6 though, but the chances are minimal for such occurrences.
And yeah it must always feel bad to have to cast premium removal on cards like Hada Freeblade I like to think that almost every creature in the deck has the potential to grow larger
And about the midgame, you nailed it - our 1 mana 2 mana "tarmogoyfs" reach insane sizes and easily outpower opposing 4cc 5cc drops. Even a turn 3 tasigur wasn't a problem.
I was between Proclamation of Rebirth and Return to the Ranks, and honestly both can work - but I decided to roll with the latter because bringing back multiple Thalia's Lieutenant is so much more game breaking than say, Champion of the Parish. But I do think its down to personal preference!
What I've found so far:
1) Martyr of sands is a hilariously good card in this deck. Dropping him on turn 1, and then saccing him, is ALWAYS worth it. I had a game against dredge where i had t1 and t2 martyrs, and put myself up over 50 life. He just looked at me and cried a bit into his hand.
2) Athreos out of the sideboard is great against any creature control deck. Kill my creatures, back to my hand, rinse and repeat... i used this with a thalia's lieutenant to pump my whole team up by 4 in a game again jund. Your 5/6 tarmos look really nice, shame they're not 6/7 Thraben Inspectors.
3) Aether Vials and Cavern of Souls are my next purchases for this deck.
4) I'm dropping my anafenzas as soon as I get some aether vials.
I doubt it can really compete with established decks like Jund or Dredge consistently (and not just steal a game occasionally).
Running Black just for Athreos, God of Passage is not taking advantage of the color at all.
The good black humans are: Dark Confidant, Bloodsoaked Champion, Xathrid Necromancer and Sin Collector/Orzhov Pontiff for the SB.
And spells like: Dismember, Zealous Persecution, Inquisition of Kozilek/Thoughtseize and Anguished Unmaking.
Also Cathedral of War is a terrible land coming into play tapped and not providing colored mana.
You play some pretty weak cards (Mentor of the Meek, Cavalry Pegasus, Knight of the White Orchid) or cards that have no (or little) synergy with the deck (Martyr of Sands, Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit and Field Marshal which is a rather weak lord anyway imho).
Martyr has decent synergy - it's a human, can gain a good amount of life if needed, and drops as a 1 drop. When you start pumping the way this deck does, it gets to be a 3/3 or bigger consistently.
Anafenza is left over from my first iteration, it's going as soon as I get some aether vials.
Mentor is currently being playtested, it does decent, but may eventually be switched depending on how i go.
Calvary pegasus is basically an oh ***** for most opponents, it takes a level board position and generally puts me on a 1 hit kill. Evasion on the attack is great.
Knight is an allstar card.. running as few lands as i do (19) it means it allows me to draw an extra land in the early/mid game phase, and it's got first strike, so it's a solid blocker if needed.
Field Marshall isn't an incredible lord, but it is a direct white comparison to merfolk.
Honestly, this deck plays much more like a white merfolk than a WW, try it out.
I doubt it can really compete with established decks like Jund or Dredge consistently (and not just steal a game occasionally).
Honestly, often enough, tarmos and other big creatures can't attack through my creatures, it's not unusual for me to be fielding creatures that are 5/5 or bigger by turn 4.
Running Black just for Athreos, God of Passage is not taking advantage of the color at all.
I agree, I will be splashing more black in the future, just have to decide on what.
Also Cathedral of War is a terrible land coming into play tapped and not providing colored mana.
Its only there until I can get cavern of souls, but at $75 a pop, that's a bit out of my budget right now.
All the white pums you have, @Jonh_dune, do worse to the idea of using the Mentor.
@StompBee, you could also splash U for using Reflector Mage or Meddling Mage, both of them not only are humans that are protected by Brave the Elements, but also helps a lot when you need to stabilize the board or simply destroy some decks.
BW Humans can actually be pretty good in my opinion as the black splash help the deck with card draw and dealing with combo decks.
Here is my idea for the deck:
4x Champion of the Parish
3x Kytheon, Hero of Akros
4x Bloodsoaked Champion
4x Student of Warfare
4x Thalia's Lieutenant
4x Dark Confidant
1x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Xathrid Necromancer
4x Gather the Townsfolk
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
Instant (4)
4x Path to Exile
Land (20)
4x Godless Shrine
3x Plains
4x Polluted Delta
3x Swamp
2x Cavern of Souls
4x Windswept Heath
2x Repel the Abominable
2x Thoughtseize
2x Anguished Unmaking
2x Auriok Champion
2x Stony Silence
2x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Zealous Persecution
1x Dismember
A note on Skirsdag High Priest, I've said this before but he gives your creatures evasion, as long as you have 2 creatures tap the creature your swinging with isn't getting blocked.
The deck is rather strange with 4x Collective Effort (a good card imho) in the maindeck over more obvious options like Path to Exile/Dromoka's Command and relies almost (C.Effort can remove big creatures) solely on Fiend Hunter for removal (which is not enough in my opinion).
I also think that playing 3x maindeck Thalia, Guardian of Thraben with CoCo isn't a good idea and 3x Thalia, Heretic Cathar might be a bit much for a legendary card.
And the deck doesn't seem to take full adavantage of CoCo by not playing the beefiest humans 3-drops like: Knight of the Reliquary, Tireless Tracker (or even Mirran Crusader) or Eternal Witness for card advantage over cards like Thraben Inspector.
Casting CoCo and hitting: Noble Hierarch, Thraben Inspector or a duplicate of one of the Thalia's seems really bad and those are near half of the creatures in the deck, and you don't actually need CoCo to cast Champion of the Parish and Thalia's Lieutenat/Mayor of Avabruck.
That being said, it's true that having to much 3CMC could be devasteting for this kind of deck. Maybe adding Aether Vial could help to have more consistency with our drops???
Paladin En-Vec is always a good chose, since he dodges a so much removal, and is pretty much exangeable with Mirran Crusader for the spot.
Dissagre. The humans tribe it's more than capable of dealing heavy damage to any oponent. If you check the blitz humans deck, you'll found decks with a consistent turn 4 kill, 3 if our oponent helps us.
If you're using that much 3CMC, you're not aiming for the turn 4. And, if you're not trying to win fast, the you'll need more options to hold on, or to disrupt your opponent.
It seems rather random.
We've seen a decent amount of variation in the lists that have posted results in the last month or two. It gives me hope that there's enough potential raw power in the human core to go somewhere since it's had tastes of success even without coming to an optimized consensus list. Also it seems pretty clear that Mantis Rider is the nuts.
And here is another 5c list with videos - http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-jacob-shahar-modern-5-color-humans/
I'm not a fan of this list at all:
Boros Elite is just bad imho and should at least be Soldier of the Pantheon/Bloodsoaked Champion.
Experiment One and Burning-Tree Emissary aren't good here, I would go with Dark Confidant and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben instead
(or Voltaic Brawler when it releases on modo).
Lyev Skyknight is decent but Anafenza, the Foremost, Hanweir Garrison and Thalia, Heretic Cathar seem like better 3-cmc options to me.
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Voltaic Brawler
4 Lightning Mauler
2 Mayor of Avabruck
1 Phantasmal Image
4 Mantis Rider
4 Lyev Skyknight
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
1 Temple Garden
1 Stomping Ground
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Breeding Pool
1 Steam Vents
1 Plains
1 Forest
2 Razorverge Thicket
4 Cavern of Souls
What ? Lightning Bolt over Path to Exile ??? Yup. 2 reasons :
- With Brawler, something happens : I want a red source very early (in case I don't have a Cavern to fix any mana issue). It's more common to have a real red source and be able to cast Bolt.
- Brawler has trample, a Rider + Skyknight have flying, Mauler accelerates my tempo. The whole is more aggro.
Bolt fits to a different strategy than Path : I want to kill before I have to interact.
The whole package makes sense, as well as my previous package made sense too. It's meta dependant, sometimes one config will be better than the other. The idea is to ignore blockers and ignore big fatties. Bolt will be bad at killing Tarmos and big stuff, but will kill Lili and finish the opponent. What about the other choices ?
Lyev Skyknight is a better beater than Hanweir Garrison because it flies over the grounders. Garrison often gets chumped, so you don't even attack with him sometimes. Both cards lean towards the same "side" though, and they're good in different situations. Thalia, Heretic Cathar isn't better than Skyknight at preventing a creature from blocking. And Thalia has no evasion herself. It's good to have choices right ?
The "other side" is about Reflector Mage and Fiend Hunter, creatures that are more interactive but less agressive. They're on the same side as Path ot Exile. Stronger interaction but less reach.
Now Lightning Mauler, on the aggro side of things, is very good with Collected Company. I wanted to include the card because I knew it was good in the other lists, but I couldn't figure out what to cut. With more red spells, I just needed to change Flooded Strand by Wooded Foothills, to ensure I can fetch a red source. it makes the whole deck more consistent, as opposed to a build in between (Path + red creatures for example).
Mauler revealed by Coco is great, it makes Lyev Skyknight as aggro as Mantis Rider, Brawler attacking right away is great too, and overall it helps racing the other fast decks of the format.
Reflecting Pool instead of Canopy and a last fetchland is a nice way to shore the Burn/aggros MUs. This manabase is young and in early testing, but it works for now, so I can't be too far from what I want.
I find myself trimming Mayor of Avabruck down. As a 1/1 you usually don't want to put him out early to prioritize getting your beaters out. I've found 2-3 copies to better support drawing him later. I've continued to enjoy Phantasmal Image in the slot the 4th Mayor freed up. Yes, it's occasionally awkward but to me it's overall worth having the 5th Rider / Brawler / Lieutenant. And if you're missing Path against midrange you could also copy their biggest creature with Image. Maybe worth revisiting in your current list if you haven't done so already. Or perhaps the fourth Mauler might serve you better.
EDIT: I'm not sure I agree with 21 lands. CoCo is the heart of this build and playing it 1-2 turns late hurts your Tempo more than drawing an extra land IMO. Only 2 basics makes fetching more painful and further softens you to Path / Blood Moon. I'd either run another basic (Mountain to fetch with Mesa?) or a Horizon Canopy if you're really worried about flooding. Or you could run Jace for filtering as you mentioned. I think the combination of 21 lands and 2x Reflecting Pools is going to force you to mull more, and being down a card more often probably offsets the benefit you gain from leaner topdecks. Just my two cents.
I'm still up in the air about Skyknight vs Reflector Mage for the purposes of racing, but here's what I'll mess around with:
4x Arid Mesa
1x Breeding Pool
4x Cavern of Souls
1x Forest
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Mountain
1x Plains
1x Razorverge Thicket
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Stomping Ground
1x Temple Garden
4x Windswept Heath
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Champion of the Parish
2x Kytheon, Hero of Akros
4x Voltaic Brawler
4x Thalia's Lieutenant
2x Lightning Mauler
2x Mayor of Avabruck
4x Mantis Rider
3x Reflector Mage
1x Lyev Skyknight
4x Collected Company
4x Lightning Bolt
I've been further by putting 3 Eternal Witness, and no Mirran Crusader at all ! My reasoning is the following :
Witness getting back Coco or a flyer is almost always stronger than Crusader in my experience. Jund, Blue Moon and Grixis can kill Crusader too easily, and Abzan decks play Lingering Souls or bigger cards like Restoration Angel.
The one tension that exists is Rest in Peace. I assume the opponent will discard, counter or destroy it if possible, if not, Witness becomes awkward.
Yes I feel you. I already cut a Mayor for a 4th Mauler. I agree with the fact he's awkward in your opening, now we have at least 8 2-drops that we wanna cast before him. We slow roll him until the last moment.
Indeed, Phantasmal Image may serve me better than the 4th Mauler, since the latter is never targeted by removals so it sticks and is ready to soulbond anything that etb later on. I'll try him for sure.
I understand, but so far, I struggle to find evidence that forces me to add a land really. In my testing, I don't miss lands. That being said, 22 is perfectly fine and might be the way to go after all. Because it's not only about Coco, it's also about mana tensions between Bolt, Brawler, Champ, Rider, etc... Playing a 22nd land might help flooding a bit more and that could incidentally help our spells be cast on curve.
All in all, we pretty much agree on everything.
I'll talk about the SB later.
Comparing the two:
Skyknight is better against larger creatures with useful ETB abilities (Finks, Prime Time, Resto, Thought-Knot, Skyspawner, Drowner) but Reflector handles troublesome passive abilities (All Lords, Bob, Eidolon, Kalitas, Master of Waves), growing +1/+1 counter creatures or otherwise invested creatures (Scooze, Ravager, Flipped Delver etc), or cost-cheated / flipped creaures (Delve fatties, Dredge freebies).
Skyknight can shut down a planeswalker for a turn, usually Liliana, Nahiri, and Karn. It can also delay an Engineered Explosives or Oblivion Stone activation by a turn. Are there any other common, noteworthy targets?
Skyknight locks a permanent down for one turn. Reflector Mage can stop a (non-haste) creature from attacking you or blocking your threats for two turns and requires the opponent to spend mana re-casting the creature. At best, it can stop the opponent from playing several copies of the same creature. The bounce also synergizes with Meddling Mage, if you're running that.
Skyknight gives you 3 power in the air, at best giving you a steady 3+ damage per turn. However, on its own it will trade with Modern's considerably cheaper flyers such as spirit tokens, flipped delvers, and vault skirge. It also dies to any 1-2 damage ping effect and will rarely escape sweeper range. Reflector Mage has a bigger base butt and can serve as an situational blocker, but only attacks for 2+ on the ground.
Skyknight overall has a slightly broader lock effect and can push more damage through if the sky is clear and he avoids ping effects. Reflector Mage can get blocked on the ground and can only lock creatures but its lock is a stronger tempo play and will likely save you more life, especially if you bounce a fatty.
Match-ups I'd rather have Reflector in:
Jund/Abzan
Dredge
Merfolk
Grixis Delver
Affinity
Match-ups I'd rather have Skyknight in:
Jeskai Control
Tron
Zoo/Burn and hastey aggro
Bant Eldrazi and flicker decks
Titanshift
(Unlisted match-ups could go either way)
It's probably a meta call. I think Reflector excels at some more common matchups in an open meta. It's interesting that one of Skyknight's main selling points is locking Liliana, but I'd still prefer having Reflector Mage in GBx matchups to help handle Bob, Scooze, Kalitas, Lingering Souls, Tasigur, and stall their main clock, Goyf, for a full two turns.
If your meta is swamped with Bant Eldrazi I think running Skyknight (and Path over Bolt) makes a lot of sense. I haven't tested against Eldrazi yet, though. It'd also help a lot more in the Tron matchup, but I'm not sure that's close enough to being winnable to devote resources to. From what I can tell Nahiri's popularity is on the decline at the moment, and I think using Reflector Mage's butt as a blocker in the RGx aggro matchups is still probably useful even if the haste weakens the tempo gains from his bounce effect.
Overall I think Bolt + Reflector Mage both compliment a tempo strategy and are overall better suited to an open meta so that's probably what I'll be going with for now.
p.s. foil Lightning Mauler looks dope. I got it on accident from a random cart optimization but now I'm so glad it worked out that way.
Skyknight can trade with a flyer equipped with Plating, Mage can't. Skyknight can hit over Ravager, a Champ and a Master.
Mage blocks Zoo better, can attack then, and the bounce effect is slightly more appropriate. Skyknight is forced to trade.
Also you completely forget to talka about synergies and tempo with the creatures we play along with the chosen 3-drop. Experience tells stories !
VS Affi, you're happy to trade with Skirge or Nexus, because Collected Company will win you the midgame, so trading resources is a trade up for us. If you reflect them, they'll play them again at some point, and that pesky Plating will race you. That's why I already said I prefered Fiend Hunter over Mage VS Affi.
Lightning Mauler adds to the power of evasive creatures, Brawler, and Skyknight here. If you play Mage, yeah cool you have a 2/3 grounder attacking. You'll have a comparable feeling to the one you have when you attack with Hanweir Garrison into a bigger blocker.
Along with Mantis Rider, you win games by flying over the opponent like Affi does. Does Affi complains because Skirge runs into Lingering Souls ? I don't think so, and the reason is simple : they play a critical mass of flyers and stand-alone good grounders, so they can still win through spirits. They have Plating and Overseer, we have Thalia's Lieutenant and Mayor of Avabruck to grow the 3/1 into a 4/2.
Mage will never be the priority of a removal spell, Skyknight will. That should tell something too...
So, in an open meta like you say, I don't think a simple comparison of their ability is sufficient to draw a clear conclusion. What is true is that Mage is less aggro than Skyknight. If the meta wants us to play the control player more often, Mage is the way to go. If we can race most of the format and have an efficient SB against the faster decks, then Skyknight is the way to go.
Thinking about this more, CoCo Humans will usually (almost always?) default to the role of "Control" against leaner aggro decks who are capable of killing roughly a turn earlier than we are. The burden is on us to slow their clock enough to stall them into the mid game. Rider's Vigilence helps here, and as you mentioned, having another blocker in the air via Skyknight can slow their clock by blocking a lethal potentially-plated attacker. In this instance constricting the air and generally keeping plating away slows their clock down more than bouncing a single attacker for two turns.
Would there be some advantage to running a 2/2 split of Skyknight and Reflector Mage? Normally this would just be a hit to consistency but I wonder if CoCo's card selection might help us find the one that's best for the matchup often enough that there's a net benefit.
Also, Chris Dann (author of the recent 5c list) noted that he chose to run Hurkyl's Recall over Stony Silence as a tool against Affinity because it let him play an aggressive drop on T2 and then play Recall later once he'd set up his board a bit. This makes a lot of sense to me, though Stony Silence is more useful vs. Tron & Lantern.
Hard to tell, I think it's fine to stick with one side of the balance and get used to playing with it. It makes SB adjustments easier too.
Both choices seem fine and once again, it influences the rest of the SB. I do believe at least 1 Fracturing Gust must be in the SB to beat prison decks, Bridge, Ghostly Prison, multiple hate post-SB, etc... Other players will prefer Wear // Tear. I think all in all, these are fine choices that show the player is on the right track.
About the manabase, I start to feel what you told me. I cut the 2 Reflecting Pools for 2 Razorverge Thicket. At that point, Wooded Foothills for Steam Vents is more appropriate than the Hallowed Fountain I used to play (and which always was the last shockland I wanted to fetch for). List above edited.
I also agree with you and others (at my huge surprise) that Mayor is a bit of a liability in the early game. Now with Mauler and Brawler, it's 12 2-drops that are played before Mayor in my list.
This is my mono white humans list I'm playing currently. I've top 8'd every local event I've played in with mono white and also won my pptq. My field is pretty competitive and I'm gearing up for the gp in Dallas and the rptq in December.
In my testing smuggler's copter is great. Good versus multiple decks. I recommend trying it.
My issues are what I want in the board.
I'm not sold on stony silence despite being killer against affinity. There re not too many other decks I want it against especially with my board configuration. So I need to fill the two spots in the board.
I'm also considering splashing a few green cards because of the mana base.
Thoughts or questions?
Counts : 60 main / 13 sideboard
Creatures:24
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Icatian Javelineers
2 Kytheon, Hero of Akros
1 Mikaeus, the Lunarch
4 Thraben Inspector
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Abzan Falconer
Spells:15
3 Brave the Elements
4 Path to Exile
4 Gather the Townsfolk
3 Smuggler's Copter
1 Ajani, Caller of the Pride
Lands:21
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Eiganjo Castle
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Mutavault
9 Plains
Sideboard:13
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Intrepid Hero
3 Vryn Wingmare
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Blessed Alliance
Created with Decked Builder
http://www.deckedbuilder.com/
—Dr. Doom
-My approach to building decks. Sometimes it works.