I posted in here ages ago but can't find where it is and I lost the list that i remade here's what I have. I didnt change it fully because I didn't have the cards. Help appreciated
I posted in here ages ago but can't find where it is and I lost the list that i remade here's what I have. I didnt change it fully because I didn't have the cards. Help appreciated
I feel there is too many high casting cost spells in the deck. There is 11x 4cc spells & 3x 6cc spells while you only have a minor ramp strategy in KotWO & Harrow. Maybe you can consider Steward of Valeron, which is a knight and helps to mana ramp as well.
For the second time I'll need to make some adjustments to the decklists(throwing out the GSZ toolbox), well, at least we are not as badly affected as some other decks.
For the second time I'll need to make some adjustments to the decklists(throwing out the GSZ toolbox), well, at least we are not as badly affected as some other decks.
I'll update the primer accordingly.
How are you going to change your GW knights deck?
Actually, I never formally included GSZ in my GW deck. You asked how I would include GSZ in my deck, and I gave you a hypothetical answer.
LOL, luckily you didn't go through the trouble of adding GSZ.
Well, I wasted my time writing GSZ into the primer, and it's getting tiring editing it over and over again with every round of bannings. But in a good way, we can have more discussions and debates going so it's not all bad.
The fact that we added GSZ to the Knight deck just goes to show how incredibly useful it was. I can understand why the DCI banned it: decks using GSZ would mostly end up being the same for a large part of the deck, which kills the variety.
I'll just wait for more Knights. I'm rooting for a Human Wizard Knight.
Yeah, but with the ban hammer, our early discussions on GSZ has come to nought.
I'm hoping for a zombie knight similar to Hakkon which will make BW knights viable in Modern. However what we get from Innistrad is only a intimidating spirit knight
A Human Wizard Knight will be very interesting, except he might forces us to splash U for him.
Having this type of Knight creatures will definitely bring our knights deck to another level. Who knows we could have a Knights Stompy or Knights Tempo deck?
Anway I still find it a pity Grand Abolisher was not a knight. But at least he is a W creature.:)
Having this type of Knight creatures will definitely bring our knights deck to another level. Who knows we could have a Knights Stompy or Knights Tempo deck?
It's really hard to build a competitive deck based on a job class, because the job class itself tends to lead to certain design decisions. Soldiers, for example, have largely combative abilities with Loxodon Gatekeeper being a major exception. Wizards tend to either counter spells, bounce permanents, or perform other non-combative abilities. It would be unusual to see a combat-oriented Wizard (i.e. a Wizard with first strike).
I envy Elves, Merfolk, and even Vampires, because those species can have multiple job classes, which creates different deck configurations.
Maybe we will see a Human deck take off though the only Human lord in Innistrad is not as powerful as the Elven, Merfolkian (is this even a word?), or Vampiric lords.
Quote from Nabbydian »
I removed GSZ from the Primer...
Back to square one for us Knight-wielding planeswalkers.
It's really hard to build a competitive deck based on a job class, because the job class itself tends to lead to certain design decisions. Soldiers, for example, have largely combative abilities with Loxodon Gatekeeper being a major exception. Wizards tend to either counter spells, bounce permanents, or perform other non-combative abilities. It would be unusual to see a combat-oriented Wizard (i.e. a Wizard with first strike).
Hit the nail on the head, this is probably the biggest reason why we don't see many Knights with non-combative abilities - but I don't believe it'll never happen as all we need is for WotC to design or create a storyline to change things(although as unlikely as it seems but we can keep hoping :rolleyes:).
Alara was great for knights, bringing along this 3 knights which could ramp and interact with lands thus giving us more options with our knights. ROE also brought along efficient knights beater. However it seems the well has dried up, looking at the crap we get recently in Griffin Rider and Spectral Rider.
I envy Elves, Merfolk, and even Vampires, because those species can have multiple job classes, which creates different deck configurations.
Maybe we will see a Human deck take off though the only Human lord in Innistrad is not as powerful as the Elven, Merfolkian (is this even a word?), or Vampiric lords.
Yeah, especially when these tribes has so many lords, many with different abilities and booster to the point they do not even need to consider playing Adaptive Automation.
In the near future, our best bet is for a Human Lord which has the synergy or relevant boost to work for our Human Knights at the moment.
I don't know about you guys, but I maindeck Path, and have been swapping between Brave the Elements and Honor of the Pure. The rest has been Knights and Vial...
The deck is FAST when you get a vial on turn 1, and still plausible without it. You dominate Zoo as long as your first strike (Mirran, Meadowgrain, White Orchid, Student, Porcelain Legionnaire, Paladin, lordy) bests their removal. You also grind out mid-range opposition with Students and Mirran Crusader.
Win-Win-Win. It's getting really good the more I learn the subtle nuances.
I don't know about you guys, but I maindeck Path, and have been swapping between Brave the Elements and Honor of the Pure. The rest has been Knights and Vial...
The deck is FAST when you get a vial on turn 1, and still plausible without it. You dominate Zoo as long as your first strike (Mirran, Meadowgrain, White Orchid, Student, Porcelain Legionnaire, Paladin, lordy) bests their removal. You also grind out mid-range opposition with Students and Mirran Crusader.
Win-Win-Win. It's getting really good the more I learn the subtle nuances.
Maindecking Path is a must, however if facing a unknown meta I'll choose Brave the Elements over Honor of the Pure. Brave the elements has more relevant applications and when we protect our Knight Exemplar successfully from an impending removal; that will usually be enough to tilt the creature war over to our side. Knight Exemplar is really massive in an attrition war and I wouldnt mind expending Brave to save him. I'm seriously thinking about making some space for a few brave the elements.
Having a first turn Vial is always godly but the best thing about Knights is how resilient it can be even without a first turn Vial which is why i adore playing it so much.
I played Brave the Elements for a while, but I found it to do less in saving Exemplar than Honor does in boosting everything else.
A 3/3 Knight of Meadowgrain/White Orchid/Exemplar, 4/4 Student, 4/2 Porcelain, or 4/5 Bladehold dropping two 3/2s in with every swing is outright magnificent, and gives you an impossibly positive matchup against Zoo. If those HotP were Brave the Elements, you cast for white to save your guys from Path, then get run over by Goyf anyway. You cast for red to save your guy from Bolt, and get run over anyway. You cast for green to swing through Goyf, and you get chumped by something else anyway.
I would like it a lot more of Day of Judgment/Wrath saw play, and made Exemplar imposssible to win without.
Your vial is at 3, your curve at 2 is fine with Meadowgrain and White Orchid, with Holy Nimbus being the odd guy out after that.
You were right when you said it's no Stillmoon. I don't see how it gets play here given the options available to you. I'd rather play a hatebear than a bad knight just for the sake of it being a knight.
I played Brave the Elements for a while, but I found it to do less in saving Exemplar than Honor does in boosting everything else.
A 3/3 Knight of Meadowgrain/White Orchid/Exemplar, 4/4 Student, 4/2 Porcelain, or 4/5 Bladehold dropping two 3/2s in with every swing is outright magnificent, and gives you an impossibly positive matchup against Zoo. If those HotP were Brave the Elements, you cast for white to save your guys from Path, then get run over by Goyf anyway. You cast for red to save your guy from Bolt, and get run over anyway. You cast for green to swing through Goyf, and you get chumped by something else anyway.
I would like it a lot more of Day of Judgment/Wrath saw play, and made Exemplar imposssible to win without.
This is a bad example against Zoo. Have you play against Zoo extensively?
If you do, Knight of Meadowgrain would be lightning bloted the turn it lands. White Orchid will eat the second blot, Exemplar will be pathed away, 4/2 Porcelain would be helix off & Student would be dead before it becomes 3/3. What is key against Zoo is to make them run out of removals and reduce them to top-deck mode while you have creatures which can hold the fort. Brave the Elements enables you to save a crucial Exemplar/an equipped creature/a 4/4 doublestriked Student which does wonders in keeping you in the game.
Hotp is hopeless here against Zoo because what you need is another creature, not an enchantment which boasts an empty board. In most cases a Hotp on Orchid/Porcelain will also get run over by goyf. Zoo is not the premier Aggro deck for nothing and to be perfectly honest we need a better hand than them to stand a chance. HotP reduces your chances by not giving you more critters than their removals.
I could imagine equipping a Sword of Light and Shadow on him for degenerate stuffs but this type of combo will only tend to reduce the deck overall effectiveness. Like TheChosen1 has pointed out, Meadowgrain, White Orchid or even White Knight and Holy Nimbus is in front of him in the pecking order.
Your vial is at 3, your curve at 2 is fine with Meadowgrain and White Orchid, with Holy Nimbus being the odd guy out after that.
You were right when you said it's no Stillmoon. I don't see how it gets play here given the options available to you. I'd rather play a hatebear than a bad knight just for the sake of it being a knight.
Yeah, absolutely, there are way better 2 drops knights in front of Spectral Rider. This guy need more than just intimidate. It doesnt even have first strike for knights chump blocking.
This is a bad example against Zoo. Have you play against Zoo extensively?
If you do, Knight of Meadowgrain would be lightning bloted the turn it lands. White Orchid will eat the second blot, Exemplar will be pathed away, 4/2 Porcelain would be helix off & Student would be dead before it becomes 3/3. What is key against Zoo is to make them run out of removals and reduce them to top-deck mode while you have creatures which can hold the fort. Brave the Elements enables you to save a crucial Exemplar/an equipped creature/a 4/4 doublestriked Student which does wonders in keeping you in the game.
I understand your argument for threat density, but I've found any 3 power first striker they can't remove to absolutely stall out Zoo. That's why I play Porcelain to begin with (albeit as a 1-of).
If they have a hand of Nacatl, Path, Goyf, Land, Land, Bolt, Bolt, and I have a hand of Student, Honor, Land, Land, Path, White Orchid, Exemplar, sure... I lose barring bad draws. The thing is, Zoo has twelve removal spells. I have Stillmoon, which nullifies four of them. I have the option to vial in Exemplar, nullifying eight of them maybe once or twice a game. Double Exemplar does happen, and that nullifies their non-path gameplan entirely. At the end of the day, Zoo has twelve kill spells, and I have twenty-twenty two guys who can single-handedly take on anything but goyf and Knight, and six-eight more who can outright wreck the aforementioned even though I'd be holding Path for them anyway. They have to draw their removal to get any damage in at any point Honor is down, and if they're wasting a Pridemage to get rid of that instead of Vial, I'm alright there too.
I would rather stare down a Goyf than a Kitchen Finks any day.
I understand your argument for threat density, but I've found any 3 power first striker they can't remove to absolutely stall out Zoo. That's why I play Porcelain to begin with (albeit as a 1-of).
If they have a hand of Nacatl, Path, Goyf, Land, Land, Bolt, Bolt, and I have a hand of Student, Honor, Land, Land, Path, White Orchid, Exemplar, sure... I lose barring bad draws. The thing is, Zoo has twelve removal spells. I have Stillmoon, which nullifies four of them. I have the option to vial in Exemplar, nullifying eight of them maybe once or twice a game. Double Exemplar does happen, and that nullifies their non-path gameplan entirely. At the end of the day, Zoo has twelve kill spells, and I have twenty-twenty two guys who can single-handedly take on anything but goyf and Knight, and six-eight more who can outright wreck the aforementioned even though I'd be holding Path for them anyway. They have to draw their removal to get any damage in at any point Honor is down, and if they're wasting a Pridemage to get rid of that instead of Vial, I'm alright there too.
I would rather stare down a Goyf than a Kitchen Finks any day.
Zoo has twelve removal spells. They also have Grim Lavamancer which is effectively an recyclable removal spell. I said additional creatures is better than Honor simply because there are many occasions when I have a Honor sitting there with few or no creatures that caused me to be overwhelmed easily.
Against Zoo we are usually trying to survive the early assault, and get the game stabilised because we cannot out-aggro them early. We are on a clock so who cares about how many guys we have in our library if we cant get them onto the battlefield quickly; and yet you keep talking about our 22 guys etc, what we have in the deck does not matter. It is when they enter on the battlefield that counts. Casting Honor also comes with the opportunity cost to land a creature, causing us to eat extra damage from their creatures and giving them the chance to draw an additional removal.
Stillmoon is rubbish against Zoo, because firstly, my opponent has more than 10 ways to kill stillmoon(4 blots, 4 helix and 2 lavamancer). Secondly at 3 mana to cast a 2/1 Stillmoon and unable to do anything else for the whole turn - I would have died to Cats and Goyfs long time ago. You are kidding me saying we nullify their 4 white spells when they have 10 other ways to kill Stillmoon. Paths are reserved for our Exemplars unless the Zoo player is a clueless pilot. If you still insist Stillmoon and Honor are both so good, look at a probable scenario below(this is not a far-fetch scenario so dont argue about it.)
First turn: land, play a student
Second turn: land, play an honor (no mana left for anything)
Third turn: land, play stillmoon (no mana left for anything therefore can't pump or first strike.)
Look at our plays above, do you have an idea what is Zoo doing now? By the time Stillmoon is in play you would either have taken several damages and have only 2 creatures in play at most. And stillmoon is so vulnerable to red removal. Stillmoon is really only good against control who uses Path or Dismember as creature removal. No way it is playable against Zoo.
Have you tested playing with and without Honor before? And against what type of decks?
Against Zoo, Honor is a burden but against other aggro deck I would agree it would be useful.
Why would you... EVER... play Stillmoon turn 3 when you could pump Student out of bolt range (or into a Path)?
That said, Stillmoon is the low priority play against Zoo. You obviously look for your other options first. When it comes down to it at the end of the day, Stillmoon is better than any other plausible option at that three-spot, outside of the Exemplars and Mirran Crusaders we already play. It shores up the match with a handful of other decks, including the mirror, and can be sided out for Zoo if it's no great help.
Vial'ing in a Stillmoon on turn 5 with Honor down, giving it first strike, and forcing the opponent to remove it or lose a Nacatl is a decent play. Moreover, with Innistrad going the shift to blue is going to be prevalent in Zoo to take advantage of 3/2 flying beatsticks for 1. Stillmoon is a house there, too.
Long story short, Stillmoon isn't making the matchup any better, but it's hardly making it any worse. You only beat Zoo when they don't run into their Path either way, so why pretend those slots are changing the landscape of the gameplan? If you play Honor, then drop Mirran, they either bolt it, path it, or their entire creature base is useless. If you play Honor, then drop anything, their Lavamancer sits around doing nothing. If you play Honor, then drop Hero of Bladehold, you're on your way to winning either way.
Why would you... EVER... play Stillmoon turn 3 when you could pump Student out of bolt range (or into a Path)?
Why would the Zoo player....EVER...let you pump your Student out of bolt range without doing anything in response is beyond my comprehension.
Or you can convince me he consistently fail to draw any of the 4 Bolts/Helix in his first 10 cards.
Like you say Student first turn, Honor second turn and pump him on the third turn to put him out of bolt range, do you think the Zoo player is sleeping? If you choose to pump your student on turn 3, he'll 100% bolt in response leaving you with no creatures on the board. At this point of time Zoo usually have at least 2 creatures beating down and you should have taken 5-7 damage by then. Do you think Brave the element saving the student here is better than Honor? Not casting Honor means you would have casted a possible 2/2 first striker.
That said, Stillmoon is the low priority play against Zoo. You obviously look for your other options first. When it comes down to it at the end of the day, Stillmoon is better than any other plausible option at that three-spot, outside of the Exemplars and Mirran Crusaders we already play. It shores up the match with a handful of other decks, including the mirror, and can be sided out for Zoo if it's no great help.
Vial'ing in a Stillmoon on turn 5 with Honor down, giving it first strike, and forcing the opponent to remove it or lose a Nacatl is a decent play. Moreover, with Innistrad going the shift to blue is going to be prevalent in Zoo to take advantage of 3/2 flying beatsticks for 1. Stillmoon is a house there, too.
At three-spot we definitely look for 4x Exemplar and 4x Mirran Crusader first but what use are they if they can be removed so easily by a bolt? Brave the element is your solution here by protecting them especially Exemplar. Honor doesnt do anything here in protecting our lords against removals.
Long story short, Stillmoon isn't making the matchup any better, but it's hardly making it any worse. You only beat Zoo when they don't run into their Path either way, so why pretend those slots are changing the landscape of the gameplan? If you play Honor, then drop Mirran, they either bolt it, path it, or their entire creature base is useless. If you play Honor, then drop anything, their Lavamancer sits around doing nothing. If you play Honor, then drop Hero of Bladehold, you're on your way to winning either way.
What I'm saying here is - it is more important to protect our creatures or use up their removals rather than have a pump effect with no or insufficient creatures to make use of. All your talk about vialing in Stillmoon with Honor in play/ attacking with hero of bladehold with an honor in play etc, IT WILL NOT HAPPEN if we do not survive the early assault from zoo.
In a nutshell, Honor does not help in surviving early but Brave enables that to happen which is what I have been trying to put across.
Honor of the Pure is not recommended here against a tier 1 Zoo deck unless you have ways of generating more creatures than the Zoo deck. The Zoo player will destroy or exile every creature you have to push through his/her creatures, so you have to either protect your creatures or produce enough creatures to exhaust your opponent's removal spells. Hero of Bladehold at 4 CMC and no mana acceleration is, more often than not, too "slow" against a Zoo deck. That is why most of the Knight decks cap out at 3 CMC.
Honor of the Pure is not recommended here against a tier 1 Zoo deck unless you have ways of generating more creatures than the Zoo deck. The Zoo player will destroy or exile every creature you have to push through his/her creatures, so you have to either protect your creatures or produce enough creatures to exhaust your opponent's removal spells. Hero of Bladehold at 4 CMC and no mana acceleration is, more often than not, too "slow" against a Zoo deck. That is why most of the Knight decks cap out at 3 CMC.
Yeah, Honor is good against other mid-range aggro matchups but against a deck with cheap removals and fast creatures like Zoo it is not optimal to run them.
Hero of Bladehold's ability can't be activated until turn five(without mana acceleration and consistant land drops) at best, and that's an awfully long time against a fast deck like zoo. It'll also probably render our Vial useless if we push it to 4 counters. Leaving Vial at 3 counters also allow us to cheat in Exemplar to stop mass destruction or save another knight.
4x Sunpetal Grove
2x Verdant Catacombs
2x Selesnya Sanctuary
7x Plains
5x Forest
Creatures [24]:
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Knight Exemplar
4x Knight of the White Orchid
4x Knight of Meadowgrain
4x Hero of Bladehold
2x Kinsbaile Cavalier
2x Sun Titan
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4x Path to Exile
3x Day of Judgment
4x Harrow
2x Honor of the Pure
1x True Conviction
The 2x Honor of the Pure & 1x True Conviction seems a bit random here. I'll rather take them out for some utility cards in Qasali Pridemage or Oblivion Ring as there is no removal for any artifacts or enchantments at the moment.
I feel there is too many high casting cost spells in the deck. There is 11x 4cc spells & 3x 6cc spells while you only have a minor ramp strategy in KotWO & Harrow. Maybe you can consider Steward of Valeron, which is a knight and helps to mana ramp as well.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/TCG/Resources.aspx?x=judge/resources/sfrmodern
For the second time I'll need to make some adjustments to the decklists(throwing out the GSZ toolbox), well, at least we are not as badly affected as some other decks.
I'll update the primer accordingly.
How are you going to change your GW knights deck?
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Actually, I never formally included GSZ in my GW deck. You asked how I would include GSZ in my deck, and I gave you a hypothetical answer.
My GW deck stays where it is.
Well, I wasted my time writing GSZ into the primer, and it's getting tiring editing it over and over again with every round of bannings. But in a good way, we can have more discussions and debates going so it's not all bad.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
I'll just wait for more Knights. I'm rooting for a Human Wizard Knight.
I'm hoping for a zombie knight similar to Hakkon which will make BW knights viable in Modern. However what we get from Innistrad is only a intimidating spirit knight
A Human Wizard Knight will be very interesting, except he might forces us to splash U for him.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Maybe we can get a Knight like Loxodon Gatekeeper.
Having this type of Knight creatures will definitely bring our knights deck to another level. Who knows we could have a Knights Stompy or Knights Tempo deck?
Anway I still find it a pity Grand Abolisher was not a knight. But at least he is a W creature.:)
I removed GSZ from the Primer...
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
It's really hard to build a competitive deck based on a job class, because the job class itself tends to lead to certain design decisions. Soldiers, for example, have largely combative abilities with Loxodon Gatekeeper being a major exception. Wizards tend to either counter spells, bounce permanents, or perform other non-combative abilities. It would be unusual to see a combat-oriented Wizard (i.e. a Wizard with first strike).
Knights have Steward of Valeron and Knight of the White Orchid, and Knight of the Relinquary, but they were all introduced in the Alara block. Before that, Knights were combat-oriented.
I envy Elves, Merfolk, and even Vampires, because those species can have multiple job classes, which creates different deck configurations.
Maybe we will see a Human deck take off though the only Human lord in Innistrad is not as powerful as the Elven, Merfolkian (is this even a word?), or Vampiric lords.
Back to square one for us Knight-wielding planeswalkers.
Hit the nail on the head, this is probably the biggest reason why we don't see many Knights with non-combative abilities - but I don't believe it'll never happen as all we need is for WotC to design or create a storyline to change things(although as unlikely as it seems but we can keep hoping :rolleyes:).
Alara was great for knights, bringing along this 3 knights which could ramp and interact with lands thus giving us more options with our knights. ROE also brought along efficient knights beater. However it seems the well has dried up, looking at the crap we get recently in Griffin Rider and Spectral Rider.
Yeah, especially when these tribes has so many lords, many with different abilities and booster to the point they do not even need to consider playing Adaptive Automation.
In the near future, our best bet is for a Human Lord which has the synergy or relevant boost to work for our Human Knights at the moment.
Yessss....back to the drawing board.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
The deck is FAST when you get a vial on turn 1, and still plausible without it. You dominate Zoo as long as your first strike (Mirran, Meadowgrain, White Orchid, Student, Porcelain Legionnaire, Paladin, lordy) bests their removal. You also grind out mid-range opposition with Students and Mirran Crusader.
Win-Win-Win. It's getting really good the more I learn the subtle nuances.
Maindecking Path is a must, however if facing a unknown meta I'll choose Brave the Elements over Honor of the Pure. Brave the elements has more relevant applications and when we protect our Knight Exemplar successfully from an impending removal; that will usually be enough to tilt the creature war over to our side. Knight Exemplar is really massive in an attrition war and I wouldnt mind expending Brave to save him. I'm seriously thinking about making some space for a few brave the elements.
Having a first turn Vial is always godly but the best thing about Knights is how resilient it can be even without a first turn Vial which is why i adore playing it so much.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
A 3/3 Knight of Meadowgrain/White Orchid/Exemplar, 4/4 Student, 4/2 Porcelain, or 4/5 Bladehold dropping two 3/2s in with every swing is outright magnificent, and gives you an impossibly positive matchup against Zoo. If those HotP were Brave the Elements, you cast for white to save your guys from Path, then get run over by Goyf anyway. You cast for red to save your guy from Bolt, and get run over anyway. You cast for green to swing through Goyf, and you get chumped by something else anyway.
I would like it a lot more of Day of Judgment/Wrath saw play, and made Exemplar imposssible to win without.
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyYour vial is at 3, your curve at 2 is fine with Meadowgrain and White Orchid, with Holy Nimbus being the odd guy out after that.
You were right when you said it's no Stillmoon. I don't see how it gets play here given the options available to you. I'd rather play a hatebear than a bad knight just for the sake of it being a knight.
This is a bad example against Zoo. Have you play against Zoo extensively?
If you do, Knight of Meadowgrain would be lightning bloted the turn it lands. White Orchid will eat the second blot, Exemplar will be pathed away, 4/2 Porcelain would be helix off & Student would be dead before it becomes 3/3. What is key against Zoo is to make them run out of removals and reduce them to top-deck mode while you have creatures which can hold the fort. Brave the Elements enables you to save a crucial Exemplar/an equipped creature/a 4/4 doublestriked Student which does wonders in keeping you in the game.
Hotp is hopeless here against Zoo because what you need is another creature, not an enchantment which boasts an empty board. In most cases a Hotp on Orchid/Porcelain will also get run over by goyf. Zoo is not the premier Aggro deck for nothing and to be perfectly honest we need a better hand than them to stand a chance. HotP reduces your chances by not giving you more critters than their removals.
I could imagine equipping a Sword of Light and Shadow on him for degenerate stuffs but this type of combo will only tend to reduce the deck overall effectiveness. Like TheChosen1 has pointed out, Meadowgrain, White Orchid or even White Knight and Holy Nimbus is in front of him in the pecking order.
Yeah, absolutely, there are way better 2 drops knights in front of Spectral Rider. This guy need more than just intimidate. It doesnt even have first strike for knights chump blocking.
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I understand your argument for threat density, but I've found any 3 power first striker they can't remove to absolutely stall out Zoo. That's why I play Porcelain to begin with (albeit as a 1-of).
If they have a hand of Nacatl, Path, Goyf, Land, Land, Bolt, Bolt, and I have a hand of Student, Honor, Land, Land, Path, White Orchid, Exemplar, sure... I lose barring bad draws. The thing is, Zoo has twelve removal spells. I have Stillmoon, which nullifies four of them. I have the option to vial in Exemplar, nullifying eight of them maybe once or twice a game. Double Exemplar does happen, and that nullifies their non-path gameplan entirely. At the end of the day, Zoo has twelve kill spells, and I have twenty-twenty two guys who can single-handedly take on anything but goyf and Knight, and six-eight more who can outright wreck the aforementioned even though I'd be holding Path for them anyway. They have to draw their removal to get any damage in at any point Honor is down, and if they're wasting a Pridemage to get rid of that instead of Vial, I'm alright there too.
I would rather stare down a Goyf than a Kitchen Finks any day.
Zoo has twelve removal spells. They also have Grim Lavamancer which is effectively an recyclable removal spell. I said additional creatures is better than Honor simply because there are many occasions when I have a Honor sitting there with few or no creatures that caused me to be overwhelmed easily.
Against Zoo we are usually trying to survive the early assault, and get the game stabilised because we cannot out-aggro them early. We are on a clock so who cares about how many guys we have in our library if we cant get them onto the battlefield quickly; and yet you keep talking about our 22 guys etc, what we have in the deck does not matter. It is when they enter on the battlefield that counts. Casting Honor also comes with the opportunity cost to land a creature, causing us to eat extra damage from their creatures and giving them the chance to draw an additional removal.
Stillmoon is rubbish against Zoo, because firstly, my opponent has more than 10 ways to kill stillmoon(4 blots, 4 helix and 2 lavamancer). Secondly at 3 mana to cast a 2/1 Stillmoon and unable to do anything else for the whole turn - I would have died to Cats and Goyfs long time ago. You are kidding me saying we nullify their 4 white spells when they have 10 other ways to kill Stillmoon. Paths are reserved for our Exemplars unless the Zoo player is a clueless pilot. If you still insist Stillmoon and Honor are both so good, look at a probable scenario below(this is not a far-fetch scenario so dont argue about it.)
First turn: land, play a student
Second turn: land, play an honor (no mana left for anything)
Third turn: land, play stillmoon (no mana left for anything therefore can't pump or first strike.)
Look at our plays above, do you have an idea what is Zoo doing now? By the time Stillmoon is in play you would either have taken several damages and have only 2 creatures in play at most. And stillmoon is so vulnerable to red removal. Stillmoon is really only good against control who uses Path or Dismember as creature removal. No way it is playable against Zoo.
Have you tested playing with and without Honor before? And against what type of decks?
Against Zoo, Honor is a burden but against other aggro deck I would agree it would be useful.
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That said, Stillmoon is the low priority play against Zoo. You obviously look for your other options first. When it comes down to it at the end of the day, Stillmoon is better than any other plausible option at that three-spot, outside of the Exemplars and Mirran Crusaders we already play. It shores up the match with a handful of other decks, including the mirror, and can be sided out for Zoo if it's no great help.
Vial'ing in a Stillmoon on turn 5 with Honor down, giving it first strike, and forcing the opponent to remove it or lose a Nacatl is a decent play. Moreover, with Innistrad going the shift to blue is going to be prevalent in Zoo to take advantage of 3/2 flying beatsticks for 1. Stillmoon is a house there, too.
Long story short, Stillmoon isn't making the matchup any better, but it's hardly making it any worse. You only beat Zoo when they don't run into their Path either way, so why pretend those slots are changing the landscape of the gameplan? If you play Honor, then drop Mirran, they either bolt it, path it, or their entire creature base is useless. If you play Honor, then drop anything, their Lavamancer sits around doing nothing. If you play Honor, then drop Hero of Bladehold, you're on your way to winning either way.
Why would the Zoo player....EVER...let you pump your Student out of bolt range without doing anything in response is beyond my comprehension.
Or you can convince me he consistently fail to draw any of the 4 Bolts/Helix in his first 10 cards.
Like you say Student first turn, Honor second turn and pump him on the third turn to put him out of bolt range, do you think the Zoo player is sleeping? If you choose to pump your student on turn 3, he'll 100% bolt in response leaving you with no creatures on the board. At this point of time Zoo usually have at least 2 creatures beating down and you should have taken 5-7 damage by then. Do you think Brave the element saving the student here is better than Honor? Not casting Honor means you would have casted a possible 2/2 first striker.
At three-spot we definitely look for 4x Exemplar and 4x Mirran Crusader first but what use are they if they can be removed so easily by a bolt? Brave the element is your solution here by protecting them especially Exemplar. Honor doesnt do anything here in protecting our lords against removals.
What I'm saying here is - it is more important to protect our creatures or use up their removals rather than have a pump effect with no or insufficient creatures to make use of. All your talk about vialing in Stillmoon with Honor in play/ attacking with hero of bladehold with an honor in play etc, IT WILL NOT HAPPEN if we do not survive the early assault from zoo.
In a nutshell, Honor does not help in surviving early but Brave enables that to happen which is what I have been trying to put across.
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Yeah, Honor is good against other mid-range aggro matchups but against a deck with cheap removals and fast creatures like Zoo it is not optimal to run them.
Hero of Bladehold's ability can't be activated until turn five(without mana acceleration and consistant land drops) at best, and that's an awfully long time against a fast deck like zoo. It'll also probably render our Vial useless if we push it to 4 counters. Leaving Vial at 3 counters also allow us to cheat in Exemplar to stop mass destruction or save another knight.
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