I have found if a critter carries hexproof then regeneration is a moot point. If I was blocking I was already toast. Therefore Troll Ascetic gets the boot for witchstalker. My meta has a variety of things you want to get past versus trample over (looking at you Phyrexian Obliterator) so I dropped Rancor. I love Predator Ooze here though, he roars amazingly. Voice of Resurgence gives me time and Qasali Pridemage shouldn't be overlooked so easily. I am not 100% on MB Scavenging ooze but that could be the non-creature heavy meta I'm in. Thoughts here?
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Find something, Live For it, Fight for it, Die for it. Then it might get passed on the the next generation.
Do you feel as if this deck could stand to benefit from Aether Vial or Cavern of Souls to get around counterspells? Remand in particular, which is a huge pain for me.
Also, have any of you considered meshing this deck with a G/W hatebears list? Kitchen Finks and Aven mindcensor in particular. I'm also curious as to whether anyone is running Gavony Township in order to get through.
I have found if a critter carries hexproof then regeneration is a moot point. If I was blocking I was already toast. Therefore Troll Ascetic gets the boot for witchstalker. My meta has a variety of things you want to get past versus trample over (looking at you Phyrexian Obliterator) so I dropped Rancor. I love Predator Ooze here though, he roars amazingly. Voice of Resurgence gives me time and Qasali Pridemage shouldn't be overlooked so easily. I am not 100% on MB Scavenging ooze but that could be the non-creature heavy meta I'm in. Thoughts here?
Scavenging Ooze does feel like an odd choice in this deck, to me. Probably much better in GW Hatebears. I think that we're suffering from the newness factor.
Witchstalker, on the the other hand, is a card I'm running right now in place of my troll ascetics, much like in your build. It's not so much regeneration being irrelevant as it is the 3 toughness. It survives Pyroclasm passively the turn it comes down, and that's huge. I'd run it even without the blue/black hate clause over troll ascetic entirely for that reason.
Scavenging Ooze does feel like an odd choice in this deck, to me. Probably much better in GW Hatebears.
Perhaps, but what is this deck doing that precludes running Scooze? I don't think it will be for every deck, but I think it is so easy to splash that any deck that is already running green should at least give it a shot in the 75.
I agree about Witchstalker, but when I get them I will actually not be running any Trolls.
Perhaps, but what is this deck doing that precludes running Scooze? I don't think it will be for every deck, but I think it is so easy to splash that any deck that is already running green should at least give it a shot in the 75.
I agree about Witchstalker, but when I get them I will actually not be running any Trolls.
Worship decks rely on one of two strategies to be successful: huge amounts of creatures and pressure (tokens) or resilient tempo beaters pushed out by mana dorks (troll worship). If it's boltable, it better be expendable or a mana dork. I don't want to plan on creatures being in the graveyard because I don't have a lot of creatures that should be dying, and I don't have a lot of ways to put my opponents' creatures there.
Worship decks rely on one of two strategies to be successful: huge amounts of creatures and pressure (tokens) or resilient tempo beaters pushed out by mana dorks (troll worship).
That's one way to look at it, though my build is really neither of those.
Worship decks rely on one of two strategies to be successful: huge amounts of creatures and pressure (tokens) or resilient tempo beaters pushed out by mana dorks (troll worship). If it's boltable, it better be expendable or a mana dork. I don't want to plan on creatures being in the graveyard because I don't have a lot of creatures that should be dying, and I don't have a lot of ways to put my opponents' creatures there.
It's more of just having a maindeck way to interact with stuff like SCM, DRS and sacrifice/persist based combos.
Idyllic Tutor has been great as essentially an extra copy of any enchantment that I need, and it's allowed me to feel comfortable running a singleton Privileged Position, a card that I've always liked but never really been able to use competitively. Hard pressed to find better protection for your Worships if you're running a GW list. I have been seeing a lot of UWR and Merfolk in my meta, so you can see that this list is pretty tuned to those match ups.
Idyllic Tutor has been great as essentially an extra copy of any enchantment that I need, and it's allowed me to feel comfortable running a singleton Privileged Position, a card that I've always liked but never really been able to use competitively. Hard pressed to find better protection for your Worships if you're running a GW list. I have been seeing a lot of UWR and Merfolk in my meta, so you can see that this list is pretty tuned to those match ups.
IMO Witchstalker and Voice kinda fill the same role in a deck like this, and I think you are better off choosing four (in whatever combination) and opening up the other slots.
I think if you are running an 8-dork build then it could be fine, but then you have to ask yourself what in that build (which is probably cramped for space) you want to take out for it.
I would say a max of 2 main, and maybe 2 more in the board.
I've notice more people going for Sword of Light and Shadow. I guess this makes sense considering Abrupt Decay is everywhere. But then again they can just AD the sword.
I think we need the 4th Voice or maybe Kitchen Finks. Imagine this: You are at 1 life due to Worship . You are playing against UWr. Wrath of God -> Bolt GG
We need more creatures whose stick to the battlefield, ok Witchstalker resists pyroclasm is good and stuff but there are major concerns as those. Supreme Veredict at least lets you regenerate and thats the reason I play with both Witchstalker and Troll Ascetic.
Hallowed Burial is even worst, no Kitchen Finks no Voice no nothing. Is there some Flash Hexproof creature to put EoT after a sweeper?
I've started running 2 Thragtusk in my sideboard for the sudden rise in the popularity of Hallowed Burial. It's been useful, and feels a bit like a big VoR most of the time.
Drove of Elves seems terrible and slow. Has it worked ok? Perhaps some kind of combo with Painter's Servant would be good for it, but as it is Drove seems too slow. Silhana Ledgewalker seems a better option in the same slot.
Leylline of Lifeforce is unnecessary unless your play-group runs a lot of counterspells. At most decks that run blue are using Spell Pierce (which doesn't hit creatures), Mana Leak (which does, but which is usually only 1-2 of in decks) and Remand (which is just a temporary counterspell and usually found in combo decks, so they probably aren't using it against your creatures and will just combo off anyway).
You'd be better suited to use those sideboard slots for Loxodon Smiters, Obstinate Baloth, or Thrun the Last Troll.
Also for sideboard since you are using 4 Idyllic Tutor in your 75:
2 Rest in Peace
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Nylea of the Hunt (can be tutored via Idyllic Tutor, counts as Enchantment, is indestructible)
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If someone asks if you are a god, Ray, you say YES.
With Deathrite Shaman being banned and Zoo returning to Tier 1, who else thinks that this could be a very strong deck?
It'll certainly gain strength in the meta, as UB Faeries needs to bounce Worship with Cryptic Command (and Troll Worship is full of Cryptic bait).
...Of course, beware the usual stuff that keeps Worship in check--Pod blowing Worship up, Scapeshift Cryptic-bouncing Worship, RG Tron blowing up Worship, Burn resorting to Bump in the Night, Tempo Twin Cryptic-bouncing Worship...
With Deathrite Shaman being banned and Zoo returning to Tier 1, who else thinks that this could be a very strong deck?
It'll certainly gain strength in the meta, as UB Faeries needs to bounce Worship with Cryptic Command (and Troll Worship is full of Cryptic bait).
...Of course, beware the usual stuff that keeps Worship in check--Pod blowing Worship up, Scapeshift Cryptic-bouncing Worship, RG Tron blowing up Worship, Burn resorting to Bump in the Night, Tempo Twin Cryptic-bouncing Worship...
True, but it seems very strong against Zoo. Besides, most of the time Twin and Scapeshift won't necessarily have Cryptic in their hand and Burn won't always have Bump in the Night at the time. Of course, running Worship in WG Hatebears is probably stronger than basing an entire deck around it.
DRS was all but ubiquitous, so this deck was just completely neutered. Yes there are ways to destroy enchantments, and yes there are some fringe life-loss cards, but there's no arguing that the entire reason Worship was total crap since RTR was DRS. That doesn't mean it's suddenly going to be tier 1, though. It sure wasn't prior to RTR, though it did make one or two PTQ top 8's. I think Valanarch is probably right about putting it into something more like a GW shell, though I'd definitely miss GoST.
A lot may depend on what zoo comes in the biggest numbers- if it is pridemage heavy then that is bad news for worship.
I took apart troll worship as the biggest problem I had was not DRS but the need for counterspells and a bunch of men that were sorcery speed. Add in sweepers in decks like scapeshift and the fact that a lot of combo decks dealt with 4 mana worship and the picture was not pretty.
The deck may do better now, I hope so, but with boggle being so in people's minds still it is hard. everyone is aware that hexproof men are around, and spellskites are as ubiquitous as enchantment kill.
Hey boys and girls! I have not even thought much about Troll Worship for a while now, but someone brought it up and it burrowed into my brain until I had to work on my take on the archetype:
Right now I am looking at something like this:
That is clearly the deck of a mad-moron who is up way too late for the third night in a row, but it also has some punch. I am currently passionately in love with Condemn and how effective it is while not helping my opponent. I have also swapped out my Wall of Roots for Sylvan Caryatid as a trial dork.
Condemn is fun but not as good as path namely because you can't stop some combos such as splinter twin and merila pod with condemn. I would run 4 paths main and side condemns for the agro decks like zoo. Or if you really love condemn cut swords to run 4 path 3 condemn main
Sylvan caryatid could probably be birds of paradise
Just cut the day of judgement for 4 supreme verdicts
Actually heck you can cut the verdicts and make it green/white, the blue is not doing much at all. This will make your mana base more consistent and cheaper, if you so desire.
Condemn is fun but not as good as path namely because you can't stop some combos such as splinter twin and merila pod with condemn. I would run 4 paths main and side condemns for the agro decks like zoo. Or if you really love condemn cut swords to run 4 path 3 condemn main
Sylvan caryatid could probably be birds of paradise
When you are running a deck that makes it hard to cast removal spells due to lack of targets, things like birds just die way too quickly. I tried it, and didn't like it.
Just cut the day of judgement for 4 supreme verdicts
Actually heck you can cut the verdicts and make it green/white, the blue is not doing much at all. This will make your mana base more consistent and cheaper, if you so desire.
That uncountability has been pretty good so far now and then, but I also don't want to go all in on them to run a greater risk of color screw.
Condemn: Perhaps it is a MTGO thing, but I don't run into creature based combo too often so I would rather have path out of the SB. If that changes I will use more paths in the main, but for now I like this split.
Played a bunch of matches with the budget list. I like it so far so working up to a non-budget Bant decklist.
Can't speak for anyone else, but I had completely forgotten about this archetype. One reason may be that I built and played this deck only on MTGO, and I sold my account about 6 months ago. Still, I had not taken notice of it before that for some time other than occasionally tinkering with my deck when I was bored.
The list looks pretty good for a budget list. My first substitution might be Noble Hierarch in place of Caryatid, though if you are working on a non-budget bant list you might be doing the same. That said looking back at some of my reasoning I can see the value of a mana dork with hexproof. I remember Witchstalker being part of one of my builds, though I don't know for sure why I cut it. Right now with Grixis being such a presence it seems like a really good card in a deck like this.
After I saw MTGoldfish's article, I knew I had to build this deck. However, I have a few questions.
1. With this deck gaining popularity, is it possible that Worship is going to explode in price? Should I be worried? Should I buy them first?
2. What does everybody think about MTGGoldfish's list in the sense of a critical review? (Greater details than what's been discussed.) What should I change immediately but while maintaining the deck's overall price?
Glad to see some new stuff getting thrown around. I got a new list to be critiqued (albeit similar to the new showings):
2x Copperline Gorge
5x Forest
2x Kessig Wolf Run
3x Plains
4x Razorverge Thicket
3x Temple Garden
4x Wooded Bastion
1x Day of Judgment
4x Path to Exile
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3x Birds of Paradise
4x Noble Hierarch
2x Scavenging Ooze
3x Qasali Pridemage
2x Thrun, the Last Troll
3x Voice of Resurgence
4x Witchstalker
2x Worship
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
2x Creeping Corrosion
2x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Obstinate Baloth
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
2x Torpor Orb
1x Worship
1x Wrath of God
I have found if a critter carries hexproof then regeneration is a moot point. If I was blocking I was already toast. Therefore Troll Ascetic gets the boot for witchstalker. My meta has a variety of things you want to get past versus trample over (looking at you Phyrexian Obliterator) so I dropped Rancor. I love Predator Ooze here though, he roars amazingly. Voice of Resurgence gives me time and Qasali Pridemage shouldn't be overlooked so easily. I am not 100% on MB Scavenging ooze but that could be the non-creature heavy meta I'm in. Thoughts here?
Also, have any of you considered meshing this deck with a G/W hatebears list? Kitchen Finks and Aven mindcensor in particular. I'm also curious as to whether anyone is running Gavony Township in order to get through.
Scavenging Ooze does feel like an odd choice in this deck, to me. Probably much better in GW Hatebears. I think that we're suffering from the newness factor.
Witchstalker, on the the other hand, is a card I'm running right now in place of my troll ascetics, much like in your build. It's not so much regeneration being irrelevant as it is the 3 toughness. It survives Pyroclasm passively the turn it comes down, and that's huge. I'd run it even without the blue/black hate clause over troll ascetic entirely for that reason.
CG
I agree about Witchstalker, but when I get them I will actually not be running any Trolls.
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Worship decks rely on one of two strategies to be successful: huge amounts of creatures and pressure (tokens) or resilient tempo beaters pushed out by mana dorks (troll worship). If it's boltable, it better be expendable or a mana dork. I don't want to plan on creatures being in the graveyard because I don't have a lot of creatures that should be dying, and I don't have a lot of ways to put my opponents' creatures there.
CG
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It's more of just having a maindeck way to interact with stuff like SCM, DRS and sacrifice/persist based combos.
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Birds of Paradise
2 Loxodon Smiter
4 Witchstalker
3 Voice of Resurgence
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
Spells (20):
2 Rancor
4 Spirit Mantle
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Steelshaper's Gift
1 Idyllic Tutor
3 Worship
1 Privileged Position
4 Path to Exile
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Forest
2 Plains
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Temple Garden
1 Stirring Wildwood
2 Treetop Village
4 Razorverge Thicket
2 Marsh Flats
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Torpor Orb
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Sword of Body and Mind
4 Skylasher
3 Stony Silence
Idyllic Tutor has been great as essentially an extra copy of any enchantment that I need, and it's allowed me to feel comfortable running a singleton Privileged Position, a card that I've always liked but never really been able to use competitively. Hard pressed to find better protection for your Worships if you're running a GW list. I have been seeing a lot of UWR and Merfolk in my meta, so you can see that this list is pretty tuned to those match ups.
CG
IMO Witchstalker and Voice kinda fill the same role in a deck like this, and I think you are better off choosing four (in whatever combination) and opening up the other slots.
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I think if you are running an 8-dork build then it could be fine, but then you have to ask yourself what in that build (which is probably cramped for space) you want to take out for it.
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I've notice more people going for Sword of Light and Shadow. I guess this makes sense considering Abrupt Decay is everywhere. But then again they can just AD the sword.
Draft My Cube!
I've started running 2 Thragtusk in my sideboard for the sudden rise in the popularity of Hallowed Burial. It's been useful, and feels a bit like a big VoR most of the time.
This is, of course, in addition to manlands.
CG
Leylline of Lifeforce is unnecessary unless your play-group runs a lot of counterspells. At most decks that run blue are using Spell Pierce (which doesn't hit creatures), Mana Leak (which does, but which is usually only 1-2 of in decks) and Remand (which is just a temporary counterspell and usually found in combo decks, so they probably aren't using it against your creatures and will just combo off anyway).
You'd be better suited to use those sideboard slots for Loxodon Smiters, Obstinate Baloth, or Thrun the Last Troll.
Also for sideboard since you are using 4 Idyllic Tutor in your 75:
2 Rest in Peace
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Nylea of the Hunt (can be tutored via Idyllic Tutor, counts as Enchantment, is indestructible)
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
It'll certainly gain strength in the meta, as UB Faeries needs to bounce Worship with Cryptic Command (and Troll Worship is full of Cryptic bait).
...Of course, beware the usual stuff that keeps Worship in check--Pod blowing Worship up, Scapeshift Cryptic-bouncing Worship, RG Tron blowing up Worship, Burn resorting to Bump in the Night, Tempo Twin Cryptic-bouncing Worship...
True, but it seems very strong against Zoo. Besides, most of the time Twin and Scapeshift won't necessarily have Cryptic in their hand and Burn won't always have Bump in the Night at the time. Of course, running Worship in WG Hatebears is probably stronger than basing an entire deck around it.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
CG
I took apart troll worship as the biggest problem I had was not DRS but the need for counterspells and a bunch of men that were sorcery speed. Add in sweepers in decks like scapeshift and the fact that a lot of combo decks dealt with 4 mana worship and the picture was not pretty.
The deck may do better now, I hope so, but with boggle being so in people's minds still it is hard. everyone is aware that hexproof men are around, and spellskites are as ubiquitous as enchantment kill.
Right now I am looking at something like this:
4 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Predator Ooze
4 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Eternal Witness
2 Spellskite
Other Spells 18
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Worship
2 Path to Exile
2 Condemn
2 Day of Judgment
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 leyline of Sanctity
3 Forest
3 Plains
3 Temple Garden
2 Hallowed Fountain
4 Sunpetal Grove
4 Marsh Flats
2 Treetop Village
2 Gavony Township
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Worship
1 Spellskite
3 Stony Silence
1 Path to exile
1 Condemn
2 Eternal Witness
2 Relic of Progenitus
That is clearly the deck of a mad-moron who is up way too late for the third night in a row, but it also has some punch. I am currently passionately in love with Condemn and how effective it is while not helping my opponent. I have also swapped out my Wall of Roots for Sylvan Caryatid as a trial dork.
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Sylvan caryatid could probably be birds of paradise
Just cut the day of judgement for 4 supreme verdicts
Actually heck you can cut the verdicts and make it green/white, the blue is not doing much at all. This will make your mana base more consistent and cheaper, if you so desire.
That uncountability has been pretty good so far now and then, but I also don't want to go all in on them to run a greater risk of color screw.
Condemn: Perhaps it is a MTGO thing, but I don't run into creature based combo too often so I would rather have path out of the SB. If that changes I will use more paths in the main, but for now I like this split.
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This caught my attention due to this article:
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/budget-magic-84-65-tix-modern-troll-worship
Played a bunch of matches with the budget list. I like it so far so working up to a non-budget Bant decklist.
Can't speak for anyone else, but I had completely forgotten about this archetype. One reason may be that I built and played this deck only on MTGO, and I sold my account about 6 months ago. Still, I had not taken notice of it before that for some time other than occasionally tinkering with my deck when I was bored.
The list looks pretty good for a budget list. My first substitution might be Noble Hierarch in place of Caryatid, though if you are working on a non-budget bant list you might be doing the same. That said looking back at some of my reasoning I can see the value of a mana dork with hexproof. I remember Witchstalker being part of one of my builds, though I don't know for sure why I cut it. Right now with Grixis being such a presence it seems like a really good card in a deck like this.
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1. With this deck gaining popularity, is it possible that Worship is going to explode in price? Should I be worried? Should I buy them first?
2. What does everybody think about MTGGoldfish's list in the sense of a critical review? (Greater details than what's been discussed.) What should I change immediately but while maintaining the deck's overall price?