Blightning
-great against many decks, but I keep only two in my MD as of now and almost always side them out for specific removal spells.
Liliana of the Veil
-I was quite skeptical of this card when I first started testing her, now I win almost every game I see her (except against storm). I run 3 of these and have been having great success. Once you have a slight creature advantage they can't really win until they kill her. e/o turn they either discard or sac... Many times she eats removal allowing for my creatures to keep swinging, and me to gain a greater creature advantage. She has won me many late games.
Lavaclaw Reaches
- I run two of these and have found them to be quite useful. They are another red source, can swing in at the end of a game for extra damage, or finish a game of TD wars. Sometimes I have even found myself activating it just to sack for aristocrat - allowing continuous pressure even if they have blockers.
Vampire Lascerator
- puts the pressure on quick and the 2dmg/turn is incredibly valuable. If they feel the need to kill it, then your Dark Confidant might actually survive a couple of turns. If they block, it is usually a 1 for 1 trade at worst. Many low cc creatures in the meta need to stay out for utility - allowing you to beat face for a few turns. Ex: Shaman, BoP, Exalted creatures... If you have room for a couple Magma Jets in your deck - they take away the need for Viscera Seer (unless you run Nocturnis - my deck does not).
Dragonskull Summit
- I can't think of any reason not to run a playset. Every RB variant is running fetches and blood crypts for the most part, almost guaranteeing that it will never come into play tapped. Mine don't anyway...
My Recent list is linked in my sig. Still having great success against various control decks, RDW variants, tron, Jund, Doran, Infect, and Storm (post SB). Life gain decks are manageable with Rain of Gore (3x in SB as of now) and Leyline of Sanctity can be dealt with by taking out Gatekeepers, liliana, and discard and subbing in various removal spells post SB. Zombies are difficult because of the recursion for my build - they don't mind sacking creatures much... Still have only played one artifact deck as of now, so that's inconclusive...
Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Can someone make an argument for Stromkirk Noble? I just cant see it. Its weak out of the gate, not even in our primary color(which has the potential to cause slight problems). It has negligible evasion to make it through. It takes a long time to build up with no protection. And buildup cards in general are usually bad in this format. And dropping it anytime later in the game, its basically dead. Its a new incarnation of the slith series, which were bad for all te same reasons. Too easy to deal with as a 1/1.
Can someone make an argument for Stromkirk Noble? I just cant see it. Its weak out of the gate, not even in our primary color(which has the potential to cause slight problems). It has negligible evasion to make it through. It takes a long time to build up with no protection. And buildup cards in general are usually bad in this format. And dropping it anytime later in the game, its basically dead. Its a new incarnation of the slith series, which were bad for all te same reasons. Too easy to deal with as a 1/1.
Says the advocate for Viscera Seer
It works well in my list because I kill all their stuff. I make sure it can connect.
If you play it on turn 1, by turn 4 it has done an equal amount of damage and is bigger than any other 1 drop.
My list has it's lands optimized to play all red/black spells as quickly as possible, so it being red instead of black is no big deal.
It works well in my list because I kill all their stuff. I make sure it can connect.
If you play it on turn 1, by turn 4 it has done an equal amount of damage and is bigger than any other 1 drop.
My list has it's lands optimized to play all red/black spells as quickly as possible, so it being red instead of black is no big deal.
Seer brings something the instant it drops no matter when it drops. Everyone is trying to "kill all their stuff," i actually see less removal in your list than in most. I cant see it getting to a 3/3, let alone swinging at that power against any sort of decent opponent. And its still doing poorly when played after turn 1.
Seer brings something the instant it drops no matter when it drops. Everyone is trying to "kill all their stuff," i actually see less removal in your list than in most. I cant see it getting to a 3/3, let alone swinging at that power against any sort of decent opponent. And its still doing poorly when played after turn 1.
Seer brings nothing unless it has other cards to synergize with. You have no bloodghast or highborn in play, you just drew a 1/1 body.
My list has 14 cards that remove creatures. In this entire thread, there are only 4 people with lists that have more removal than mine. The most being one of Aeon's first lists having 17. Aeon's more recent lists play 16 cards that act as removal.
If I play Noble on turn 1, I am planning on playing bolt or smother on turn 2 and Gatekeeper or Liliana on turn 3. If I do that, its most likely going to be a 3/3.
If the game has gone long it is either one of two scenarios...
1) My removal/disruption/card advantage has been able to deprive my opponent of having any cards left and we are both drawing off the top. An empty board is a good place for a Stromkirk Noble. And Stromkirk Noble is probably the best 1 drop creature to play in this situation.
2) The game has reached a state where my opponent's more expensive/powerful cards are starting to control the game and in this case, no one mana creature will be advantageous to draw.
By the way, I haven't been able to find your list on here. What 71 cards are you accompanying with your Viscera Seers?
My list has 14 cards that remove creatures. In this entire thread, there are only 4 people with lists that have more removal than mine. The most being one of Aeon's first lists having 17. Aeon's more recent lists play 16 cards that act as removal.
Speaking of "recent lists", I've moved Brimstone Volley to sb in favor of Arc Trail main. I'm always happy to see it. Since Gatekeeper and Highborn are almost always 3 drops, Arc Trail joins Bloodghast, Jet and Terminate as a strong turn 2 play. Also cut 2 Lavaclaw Reaches. Tempo is too crucial. Not only do they citpt, but they citpt Dragonskull Summits. Maybe I'd play them if I wasn't running Cairns, but I like increasing my ability to get fixed.
I like Captain because I often hold back Highborn until turn 4.
Being able to choose between Gatekeeper (removal) and Captain (pressure/buff) makes turn 3 more dynamic, especially when scrying with Magma Jet on turn 2 or getting intel with Inquisition on turn 1. Getting that sort of information and filtering your topdeck really enables a more calculated line of play. This is what makes Captain so good imo. He makes my board solid against other aggro opponents, and usually just when I need him!
Plus lords tends to bait removal, helping finishers like Highborn/Aristocrat stick.
Well, if he is doing something good when he sticks then thats great.
But if all he is doing is bating out removal, maybe less captain and simply more highborn and aristocrat.
Seer brings nothing unless it has other cards to synergize with. You have no bloodghast or highborn in play, you just drew a 1/1 body.
The only time i ever "advocated" seer was in decks running nocturnus. Which means only when it has sufficient synergy.
If I play Noble on turn 1, I am planning on playing bolt or smother on turn 2 and Gatekeeper or Liliana on turn 3. If I do that, its most likely going to be a 3/3.
Thats pretty convenient to have everything you want every time you play. And also to play people who never play multiple creatures in a turn and never have any removal of their own.
If the game has gone long it is either one of two scenarios...
1) My removal/disruption/card advantage has been able to deprive my opponent of having any cards left and we are both drawing off the top. An empty board is a good place for a Stromkirk Noble. And Stromkirk Noble is probably the best 1 drop creature to play in this situation.
2) The game has reached a state where my opponent's more expensive/powerful cards are starting to control the game and in this case, no one mana creature will be advantageous to draw.
Or the board isnt empty...because it rarely is. And you could instead do something that synergizes better with your field. Since thats what most onedrops do, they provide utility. BoP, militant, cursecatcher, deathrite, these are the best ones in the format, and its not for their intimidating bodies.
Also, noble is probably the worst thing for an empty board. Since as you mentioned, it needs a lot of support to get going. Even guul-draz is better in this situation. Or, you know, a 2+ drop that is still a playable creature when the stars dont al align in your favor.
By the way, I haven't been able to find your list on here. What 71 cards are you accompanying with your Viscera Seers?
Your response to why youre running nobles is "well lets see your deck." Oh boy, thats a convincing argument...
Well, if he is doing something good when he sticks then thats great.
But if all he is doing is bating out removal, maybe less captain and simply more highborn and aristocrat.
Highborn and Aristocrat are turn 4 plays
I could see running Liliana at that spot, but only if I was running Bob or SiB mainboard, which I am not.
Casting into removal is fine by me, especially if I get a seer scry or better yet a highborn activation out of it. I feel better off than Nocturnus players who have their entire alpha strike negated by instant speed removal.
If I'm not casting Captain into removal, and I'm not holding a Gatekeeper, this means I am casting x2 spells out of my hand on turn 3 and then likely casting into removal turn 4. I try not to do this unless I'm running Lavaclaw Reaches which helps recover from over-extending. While topdeck mode isn't the worse thing, I try to avoid it.
Captain smooths the curve out, increases pressure, baits removal, bolsters combat vs aggro, and if you get German cards he translates to "Captain Kirk". It's all win.
...and if you get German cards he translates to "Captain Kirk". It's all win.
That is awesome =)
@Nessonet...
I think you can make an argument to play Seer in some lists, but I still would prefer not to play with it. If you do and it is successful, then keep playing it.
If you think it is absurd that I am hoping to have 1 or 2 out of 14 removal cards to go with my Noble... Why is it not absurd for you to hope you have 1 of your 8 combo pieces (Bloodghast or Highborn) to go with your Seer? (If you posted a list I could be more informed with how many cards you are playing that synergize with it)
My deck has a very low curve, I can empty my hand quickly and play threats while also controlling my opponents creatures or hand. It is in this window of time I am planning on gaining an insurmountable advantage and win. That is my plan A.
Plan B is to exhaust them of resources by playing cards like Liliana/Dark Confidant + Removal, it is not absurd to think I can keep the board relatively clear into the midgame. This is typically how I win my average game, each of us have traded cards, emptied our hands and at the end of it I still am beating down with 1 or 2 creatures. They may be small and a slower kill but inevitable in this situation nonetheless.
If the game does go long and my opponents deck has decent card advantage with powerful spells, I will lose ground and their board presence will begin to outmatch mine. The late game is my #2 scenario in the post you quoted and like any low curve aggro deck, I do not have any expectation to win in a late game scenario.
Your statement "Or, you know, a 2+ drop that is still a playable creature when the stars dont al align in your favor." is irrelevant since the discussion is between Seer and Noble, both of which are 1 drops. Obviously drawing a spell that costs 2 mana instead of 1 mana is almost always going to be better so long as you cast it.
At the end of the day each card is only as good as it's supporting cast and how you built your deck.
In my deck with my strategy I think Seer would be bad.
In another list with some combination of Highborn/Blood Artist/Nocturnus I think Seer might be ok.
I know people play seer and seem to be happy with it, but it all depends on your specific list.
Your attacks on noble and defense of seer lack context without a deck to put it in.
Play tested extensively against a standard GW aggro deck and got my ass kicked all over the place.
Centaur Healer and Thragtusk kept opponent in life while Thalia wrecked my tempo. Restoration Angel blinked out my Terminates, Sigarda shut down Gatekeeper late and I lost every time she hit the field. Rancor and Charm trampled over my chump blockers and Ajani's abilities and Gavony made their dorks as big or bigger than my vamps.
But wait. It gets worse.
The hardest to deal with was Loxodon Smiter. I thought I had an advantage not facing Mirran Crusaders or Blade Splicers. I was wrong. Smiter can't be hit with Inquisition, can't be killed with Lightning Bolt, and he's usually played off a dork, so Gatekeeper misses too. The times I removed with Terminate my opponent slapped down a Restoration or Sublime turn 4 and proceeded to beat face. I don't even think Nighthawk would have helped much. I was simply out-gunned. I was fortunate they were not running Strangleroot or I may not have won the few games I did.
I love vamps, and would love for them to make a strong showing in this format, but I just got totally pummeled by a standard deck :/
The only saving grace as that GW aggro/midrange is currently tier 1.
Play tested extensively against a standard GW aggro deck and got my ass kicked all over the place.
Centaur Healer and Thragtusk kept opponent in life while Thalia wrecked my tempo. Restoration Angel blinked out my Terminates, Sigarda shut down Gatekeeper late and I lost every time she hit the field. Rancor and Charm trampled over my chump blockers and Ajani's abilities and Gavony made their dorks as big or bigger than my vamps.
But wait. It gets worse.
The hardest to deal with was Loxodon Smiter. I thought I had an advantage not facing Mirran Crusaders or Blade Splicers. I was wrong. Smiter can't be hit with Inquisition, can't be killed with Lightning Bolt, and he's usually played off a dork, so Gatekeeper misses too. The times I removed with Terminate my opponent slapped down a Restoration or Sublime turn 4 and proceeded to beat face. I don't even think Nighthawk would have helped much. I was simply out-gunned. I was fortunate they were not running Strangleroot or I may not have won the few games I did.
I love vamps, and would love for them to make a strong showing in this format, but I just got totally pummeled by a standard deck :/
The only saving grace as that GW aggro/midrange is currently tier 1.
Yikes!
They have powerful creatures but, they don't have very good card advantage. Avoiding casting removal unless fewer than 4 lands are untapped. Avoid using discard when they have less than 3 cards in hand, use thoughtseize when they are at 4 mana to try and snipe a thragtusk. Their pump will be card disadvantage if you can remove their bodies.
There is a Modern GW deck I have seen running around that plays Thalia, Smiter and tops out with Wilt-Leaf Liege. It is pretty big on creatures but low on removal/card advantage (usually only playing path and not even always 4). It sounds real dumb... but I board out the bloodghasts and board in captivating vampires. I don't kill them with damage, I kill them with card advantage. Nobody takes captivating vampire seriously until it is too late and the opposing deck doesn't have removal for captivating and confidant. You can sometimes start stealing their largest creature as early as turn 4. This is the only reason I have captivating vampire in my list: for the green white/doran lists that run 99% creatures. Disclaimer: I do not endorse playing captivating vampire in any other situations.
Looking at your list again I can see how your burn would have felt pretty dead, but in the Modern format a lot of the most powerful creatures have 1-2 toughness.
Also, you have good card selection with all your Scry, but if you had Liliana and Confidant you would have a lot more card advantage.
Olivia is another good option. She can completely dominate a game by herself against a creature deck.
Having Olivia or Bonfire on your sideboard can also really help against Lingering Souls which gives all aggro decks trouble.
Don't worry about Thragtusk and Sigarda, they are very good, but way too slow for Modern except as a fringe sideboard card.
Your statement "Or, you know, a 2+ drop that is still a playable creature when the stars dont al align in your favor." is irrelevant since the discussion is between Seer and Noble, both of which are 1 drops. Obviously drawing a spell that costs 2 mana instead of 1 mana is almost always going to be better so long as you cast it.
This is where you somehow misinterpreted. This discussion was NEVER about seer vs noble. I asked a simple question. "Why play noble in your deck." Period. And for some reason you got defensive and felt a need to attack my suggestion of seer for other peoples' decks(where it would synergize), and boorishly called me out to display my deck so you could find more things to tear apart.
Those things are irrelevant. The question was merely "why play noble." Which is something youve yet to really answer. Youve stated that its a passable yet inferior-to-lacerator turn 1 play assuming you spend your following 2-3 turns coddling it and they have no removal. And an effectively dead card all other times. So i ask again, "why play noble?" You complain of running your hand out too fast, so maybe you should adjust and put a 2 drop in the slot. That would be a sensible alternative. It would allow you more leniency in your first few terms(becuase options are helpful in magic). It would give you more steam, a better topdeck mode, and its not like youre at a lack of 1 mana plays between ioks, seize, lacerator, and "killing their dudes" with bolt. But instead you chose to ignore that completely logical suggestion due to some percieved rivalry between noble and seer as if no other cards exist.
This is where you somehow misinterpreted. This discussion was NEVER about seer vs noble. I asked a simple question. "Why play noble in your deck." Period. And for some reason you got defensive and felt a need to attack my suggestion of seer for other peoples' decks(where it would synergize), and boorishly called me out to display my deck so you could find more things to tear apart.
Those things are irrelevant. The question was merely "why play noble." Which is something youve yet to really answer. Youve stated that its a passable yet inferior-to-lacerator turn 1 play assuming you spend your following 2-3 turns coddling it and they have no removal. And an effectively dead card all other times. So i ask again, "why play noble?" You complain of running your hand out too fast, so maybe you should adjust and put a 2 drop in the slot. That would be a sensible alternative. It would allow you more leniency in your first few terms(becuase options are helpful in magic). It would give you more steam, a better topdeck mode, and its not like youre at a lack of 1 mana plays between ioks, seize, lacerator, and "killing their dudes" with bolt. But instead you chose to ignore that completely logical suggestion due to some percieved rivalry between noble and seer as if no other cards exist.
When did I state "that its a passable yet inferior-to-lacerator turn 1"?
I think both are pretty similar... bad if they aren't sideways, good if they are.
Also when did I "complain of running your hand out too fast"?
I try to run my hand out quickly. That is one of my goals so that I have more cards active in the early game and I can potentially start spamming Liliana's +1 with impunity, refueling with Confidant or attacking with Highborn to push through lethal damage.
I play Noble because I focus on a tempo advantage. My list is geared for tempo so playing Noble makes sense. If you are playing a more tempo based deck, you should be playing 1 mana attackers. If you are playing a more midrange or controlling deck, you should be playing less 1 mana creatures. It depends on your deck.
Even if you don't post your own list, at least use someone else' list for context when you are talking about the value of cards. I am not looking to "tear apart your list" I just want to talk with context so we don't continue to talk in circles.
Yikes!
They have powerful creatures but, they don't have very good card advantage. Avoiding casting removal unless fewer than 4 lands are untapped. Avoid using discard when they have less than 3 cards in hand, use thoughtseize when they are at 4 mana to try and snipe a thragtusk. Their pump will be card disadvantage if you can remove their bodies.
There is a Modern GW deck I have seen running around that plays Thalia, Smiter and tops out with Wilt-Leaf Liege. It is pretty big on creatures but low on removal/card advantage (usually only playing path and not even always 4). It sounds real dumb... but I board out the bloodghasts and board in captivating vampires. I don't kill them with damage, I kill them with card advantage. Nobody takes captivating vampire seriously until it is too late and the opposing deck doesn't have removal for captivating and confidant. You can sometimes start stealing their largest creature as early as turn 4. This is the only reason I have captivating vampire in my list: for the green white/doran lists that run 99% creatures. Disclaimer: I do not endorse playing captivating vampire in any other situations.
Looking at your list again I can see how your burn would have felt pretty dead, but in the Modern format a lot of the most powerful creatures have 1-2 toughness.
Also, you have good card selection with all your Scry, but if you had Liliana and Confidant you would have a lot more card advantage.
Olivia is another good option. She can completely dominate a game by herself against a creature deck.
Having Olivia or Bonfire on your sideboard can also really help against Lingering Souls which gives all aggro decks trouble.
Don't worry about Thragtusk and Sigarda, they are very good, but way too slow for Modern except as a fringe sideboard card.
Thalia -> Smiter/Centaur/Ajani -> Angel/Garruk -> Trag/Sigarda is just a tough gig.
I wish Inquisition was Despise for this match up.
I'm also thinking I should go ahead and burn a bolt on a turn 1 dork. It seems like such a waste.
It's also counter intuitive to pilot an aggro deck and play reactionary in an attempt to slow down a midrange deck. That's whack and feels like lose.
It's true that most games were lost due to both of us in top deck mode and the GW deck just having more robust draws. I did try siding in 2 Sign in Blood but just never saw them, even with all the scrying. Bad luck maybe. Bob could be good. Captivating is interesting. I could see it.
I play Olivia in BR Control for standard, and yes, she can take over a game. She's just so mid/control. I have a hard time seeing her in a Vamps deck that is streamlined for speed but I think this is the route I will go along with some Nighthawks.
Thanks for the insights. I'll let you know how it goes.
P.S.: The GW Standard deck that pwns me belongs to and is piloted by my girlfriend. Yup. It's true..
@Jade: I respectfully disagree with your evaluation of Noble, but thats your call. I doubt we'll agree on it, so no point in continuing. The question I have now is at your spells. You say you want to play creatures fast, and then removal? This is your plan? Then I wonder why you have 5 1cmc discard spells? Similarly to Noble, they are good turn 1 plays, but not very strong after that. If you always want to drop a creature on turn 1, I think you may wish to consider alternatives in that slot. Such as more removal, to reinforce the core of the deck.
@Jade: I respectfully disagree with your evaluation of Noble, but thats your call. I doubt we'll agree on it, so no point in continuing. The question I have now is at your spells. You say you want to play creatures fast, and then removal? This is your plan? Then I wonder why you have 5 1cmc discard spells? Similarly to Noble, they are good turn 1 plays, but not very strong after that. If you always want to drop a creature on turn 1, I think you may wish to consider alternatives in that slot. Such as more removal, to reinforce the core of the deck.
Sure thats fine to disagree =)
And any question you ask I am going to assume you are referring to the card as it is in my deck unless you otherwise specify.
The discard is the perfect compliment to the aggro + removal plan. I can snipe their answers so I can keep beating with what I have on the table. Or: Snipe threats that my removal is ineffective against. Vs. Jund for example, IoK on turn 2 is perfect because I can hope to hit Liliana. On turn 3 I can thoughtseize hoping to hit a bloodbraid. If they don't have what I am looking for, there are almost always other discard options for the first 4 turns of the game.
The fact that they are only one mana doesn't mean I have to play them on turn 1, I would still prefer a creature. The fact that they are 1 mana means I have the flexibility to use a discard spell on turn 2-4 and still have mana available to use in a more informed way.
Like you said "options are helpful in magic." With so many different cards, I can vary how I want them to trade for the best value. With so many low mana cards, I can vary their sequence while still keeping tempo. Having these options allows me to optimize their effect, efficiency and ultimately how my deck plays against my opponents. Without the discard, any potent value card like Bloodbraid Elf/Pyroclasm or any non-creature combo piece like Scapeshift/Pyromancer's ascension would be extremely hard to deal with.
@Aeon:
With the sweet removal package you already have, it isn't a big leap to play the reactionary game plan vs a creature deck. The only missing piece of the puzzle is card advantage so you don't run out of steam. I strongly suggest playtesting with proxies for Dark Confidant and Liliana if you don't want to spend the $$$. These two cards can literally transform your deck, they are the main reason I think this archetype can be powerful (the actual vampires are just the best BR creature filler, imo, LOL).
Also, the reason you want to play a streamlined aggro deck, is so that you can kill your opponent before they do their "big thing" later in the game. But since the GW deck's "big thing" is playing fat creatures with minimal removal... Olivia can simply shut them down and now you are the one doing the "big thing." Then they need to aggro you down, and if you kill their mana dorks they won't be able to do it fast enough. This applies to almost all the green white based creature decks in any format.
In the modern meta, one of the advantages of playing a black red based aggro deck is being able to bounce between the aggro, control and attrition role. (This is because you can play this money mix of interactive threats, removal, discard and card advantage.) So when you face a faster deck (like robots), you control them. When you face a slower deck (most of the field), you disrupt/attack them. In all situations you can be some level of aggressive while interacting with what you need to, and not easily running out of steam. It is like playing Jund but with much faster/slightly weaker creatures.
It's a very straightforward list. You can basically split it down by "cards that are good on their own" (which are Confidant, Inquisition, Liliana, Gatekeeper, Olivia and Nighthawk) and "cards that have synergy" (Bloodghast, Seer, Noctornus, Highborn). Although Aether Vial could absolutely fit in a more mid-range based list, because Confidant=card advantage and Vial helps you cast it quickly, and Highborn=can be mana-intensive, and Olivia=dominates the board if you have spare mana.
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@Jade: My pont was that you might do better with a card like Blackmail. Which allows you your 1cmc discard, but is more suited to the mid and lategame as opposed to turn 1 blowouts like seize.
This gives you usually more options than iok, and doesnt cost the life of seize. Since by the time you play it their hand has thinned out in most matchups.
@Greenpoe
Your list looks cool! A nice midrange variation. Maybe play with 24 lands? I dunno, play it a lot and tweak it as problems arise. Nothing helps you refine your list better than playing lots of games. I have played with Aether Vial in a nocturnus list and it can allow for some pretty sweet stuff. If you play it you can probably play less Cavern of Souls and more Lavaclaw Reaches. I ultimately let Vial go because it was a dead draw later in the game and I began operating at a lower mana curve, but it might work well in a more midrange build like yours. (Instant speed lord in the middle of combat or in response to a bolt can be a real blow out.)
@NessOnett
Nice suggestion for sure, if the life loss from Thoughtseize becomes an issue, I will definitely consider Blackmail.
It's a very straightforward list. You can basically split it down by "cards that are good on their own" (which are Confidant, Inquisition, Liliana, Gatekeeper, Olivia and Nighthawk) and "cards that have synergy" (Bloodghast, Seer, Noctornus, Highborn). Although Aether Vial could absolutely fit in a more mid-range based list, because Confidant=card advantage and Vial helps you cast it quickly, and Highborn=can be mana-intensive, and Olivia=dominates the board if you have spare mana.
I might try 3x Liliana and maybe some more lands - I can see you having mana issues with this setup, especially with that many 4-drops in the deck. If you are missing a land drop T1-T3, you might as well scoop (not worth the risk). I am not sure what you would take out for the additional lands - I play a BR vampire aggro-control build (absent nocturnis). Also, Im not sure it is worth splashing red just for Olivia... the deck seems split. I would pick mono-black (with Nocturnis), or RB (without Nocturnis).
maybe...
-3 Vampire Nocturnis
-1 Liliana of the Veil
-1 Inquisition
-1 swamp
-2 Seer
+2 Lavaclaw reaches
+4 Lightning Bolt (or magma jet)
+2 Vampire Lascerator
Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Speaking of "recent lists", I've moved Brimstone Volley to sb in favor of Arc Trail main. I'm always happy to see it. Since Gatekeeper and Highborn are almost always 3 drops, Arc Trail joins Bloodghast, Jet and Terminate as a strong turn 2 play. Also cut 2 Lavaclaw Reaches. Tempo is too crucial. Not only do they citpt, but they citpt Dragonskull Summits. Maybe I'd play them if I wasn't running Cairns, but I like increasing my ability to get fixed.
Your list is very similar to mine, and that's why I wanted to pick your brain... Is there a reason you don't use Dark Confidant with such a low curve? How valuable are Stromkirk Captain and Viscrea Seer in this type of build? I wouldn't mind if you gave me your input on my list, the original post is in my signature (I've updated that post with the new cards as I tweak). Let's work on perfecting this style of modern vamps.
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Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Blightning
-great against many decks, but I keep only two in my MD as of now and almost always side them out for specific removal spells.
Liliana of the Veil
-I was quite skeptical of this card when I first started testing her, now I win almost every game I see her (except against storm). I run 3 of these and have been having great success. Once you have a slight creature advantage they can't really win until they kill her. e/o turn they either discard or sac... Many times she eats removal allowing for my creatures to keep swinging, and me to gain a greater creature advantage. She has won me many late games.
Lavaclaw Reaches
- I run two of these and have found them to be quite useful. They are another red source, can swing in at the end of a game for extra damage, or finish a game of TD wars. Sometimes I have even found myself activating it just to sack for aristocrat - allowing continuous pressure even if they have blockers.
Vampire Lascerator
- puts the pressure on quick and the 2dmg/turn is incredibly valuable. If they feel the need to kill it, then your Dark Confidant might actually survive a couple of turns. If they block, it is usually a 1 for 1 trade at worst. Many low cc creatures in the meta need to stay out for utility - allowing you to beat face for a few turns. Ex: Shaman, BoP, Exalted creatures... If you have room for a couple Magma Jets in your deck - they take away the need for Viscera Seer (unless you run Nocturnis - my deck does not).
Dragonskull Summit
- I can't think of any reason not to run a playset. Every RB variant is running fetches and blood crypts for the most part, almost guaranteeing that it will never come into play tapped. Mine don't anyway...
My Recent list is linked in my sig. Still having great success against various control decks, RDW variants, tron, Jund, Doran, Infect, and Storm (post SB). Life gain decks are manageable with Rain of Gore (3x in SB as of now) and Leyline of Sanctity can be dealt with by taking out Gatekeepers, liliana, and discard and subbing in various removal spells post SB. Zombies are difficult because of the recursion for my build - they don't mind sacking creatures much... Still have only played one artifact deck as of now, so that's inconclusive...
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
4 Vampire Lacerator
4 Bloodghast
4 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Kalastria Highborn
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Smother
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Marsh Flats
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Swamp
4 Bloodcrypt
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Slaughter Games
3 Rakdos Charm
2 Shatterstorm
3 Captivating Vampire
3 Bonfire of the Damned
Says the advocate for Viscera Seer
It works well in my list because I kill all their stuff. I make sure it can connect.
If you play it on turn 1, by turn 4 it has done an equal amount of damage and is bigger than any other 1 drop.
My list has it's lands optimized to play all red/black spells as quickly as possible, so it being red instead of black is no big deal.
Seer brings something the instant it drops no matter when it drops. Everyone is trying to "kill all their stuff," i actually see less removal in your list than in most. I cant see it getting to a 3/3, let alone swinging at that power against any sort of decent opponent. And its still doing poorly when played after turn 1.
Seer brings nothing unless it has other cards to synergize with. You have no bloodghast or highborn in play, you just drew a 1/1 body.
My list has 14 cards that remove creatures. In this entire thread, there are only 4 people with lists that have more removal than mine. The most being one of Aeon's first lists having 17. Aeon's more recent lists play 16 cards that act as removal.
If I play Noble on turn 1, I am planning on playing bolt or smother on turn 2 and Gatekeeper or Liliana on turn 3. If I do that, its most likely going to be a 3/3.
If the game has gone long it is either one of two scenarios...
1) My removal/disruption/card advantage has been able to deprive my opponent of having any cards left and we are both drawing off the top. An empty board is a good place for a Stromkirk Noble. And Stromkirk Noble is probably the best 1 drop creature to play in this situation.
2) The game has reached a state where my opponent's more expensive/powerful cards are starting to control the game and in this case, no one mana creature will be advantageous to draw.
By the way, I haven't been able to find your list on here. What 71 cards are you accompanying with your Viscera Seers?
Speaking of "recent lists", I've moved Brimstone Volley to sb in favor of Arc Trail main. I'm always happy to see it. Since Gatekeeper and Highborn are almost always 3 drops, Arc Trail joins Bloodghast, Jet and Terminate as a strong turn 2 play. Also cut 2 Lavaclaw Reaches. Tempo is too crucial. Not only do they citpt, but they citpt Dragonskull Summits. Maybe I'd play them if I wasn't running Cairns, but I like increasing my ability to get fixed.
3 Viscera Seer
4 Vampire Lacerator
4 Bloodghast
3 Kalastria Highborn
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Stromkirk Captain
2 Falkenrath Aristocrat
Instant (11)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
3 Terminate
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Arc Trail
Land (22)
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Blood Crypt
4 Dragonskull Summit
2 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Graven Cairns
6 Swamp
3 Duress
2 Smash to Smithereens
2 Rakdos Charm
2 Brimstone Volley
2 Dreadbore
2 Rain of Gore
2 Sign In Blood
Modern
RBig RedR
GMean GreenG
WWW AlliesW
BGScavengeBG
WUVenser SilenceWU
EDH
RWAurelia 1 vs 1RW
GWURoonGWU
GWSaffiGW
How good have stromkirk captains been for you?
Being able to choose between Gatekeeper (removal) and Captain (pressure/buff) makes turn 3 more dynamic, especially when scrying with Magma Jet on turn 2 or getting intel with Inquisition on turn 1. Getting that sort of information and filtering your topdeck really enables a more calculated line of play. This is what makes Captain so good imo. He makes my board solid against other aggro opponents, and usually just when I need him!
Plus lords tends to bait removal, helping finishers like Highborn/Aristocrat stick.
Modern
RBig RedR
GMean GreenG
WWW AlliesW
BGScavengeBG
WUVenser SilenceWU
EDH
RWAurelia 1 vs 1RW
GWURoonGWU
GWSaffiGW
But if all he is doing is bating out removal, maybe less captain and simply more highborn and aristocrat.
Your response to why youre running nobles is "well lets see your deck." Oh boy, thats a convincing argument...
Highborn and Aristocrat are turn 4 plays
I could see running Liliana at that spot, but only if I was running Bob or SiB mainboard, which I am not.
Casting into removal is fine by me, especially if I get a seer scry or better yet a highborn activation out of it. I feel better off than Nocturnus players who have their entire alpha strike negated by instant speed removal.
If I'm not casting Captain into removal, and I'm not holding a Gatekeeper, this means I am casting x2 spells out of my hand on turn 3 and then likely casting into removal turn 4. I try not to do this unless I'm running Lavaclaw Reaches which helps recover from over-extending. While topdeck mode isn't the worse thing, I try to avoid it.
Captain smooths the curve out, increases pressure, baits removal, bolsters combat vs aggro, and if you get German cards he translates to "Captain Kirk". It's all win.
Modern
RBig RedR
GMean GreenG
WWW AlliesW
BGScavengeBG
WUVenser SilenceWU
EDH
RWAurelia 1 vs 1RW
GWURoonGWU
GWSaffiGW
That is awesome =)
@Nessonet...
I think you can make an argument to play Seer in some lists, but I still would prefer not to play with it. If you do and it is successful, then keep playing it.
If you think it is absurd that I am hoping to have 1 or 2 out of 14 removal cards to go with my Noble... Why is it not absurd for you to hope you have 1 of your 8 combo pieces (Bloodghast or Highborn) to go with your Seer? (If you posted a list I could be more informed with how many cards you are playing that synergize with it)
My deck has a very low curve, I can empty my hand quickly and play threats while also controlling my opponents creatures or hand. It is in this window of time I am planning on gaining an insurmountable advantage and win. That is my plan A.
Plan B is to exhaust them of resources by playing cards like Liliana/Dark Confidant + Removal, it is not absurd to think I can keep the board relatively clear into the midgame. This is typically how I win my average game, each of us have traded cards, emptied our hands and at the end of it I still am beating down with 1 or 2 creatures. They may be small and a slower kill but inevitable in this situation nonetheless.
If the game does go long and my opponents deck has decent card advantage with powerful spells, I will lose ground and their board presence will begin to outmatch mine. The late game is my #2 scenario in the post you quoted and like any low curve aggro deck, I do not have any expectation to win in a late game scenario.
Your statement "Or, you know, a 2+ drop that is still a playable creature when the stars dont al align in your favor." is irrelevant since the discussion is between Seer and Noble, both of which are 1 drops. Obviously drawing a spell that costs 2 mana instead of 1 mana is almost always going to be better so long as you cast it.
At the end of the day each card is only as good as it's supporting cast and how you built your deck.
In my deck with my strategy I think Seer would be bad.
In another list with some combination of Highborn/Blood Artist/Nocturnus I think Seer might be ok.
I know people play seer and seem to be happy with it, but it all depends on your specific list.
Your attacks on noble and defense of seer lack context without a deck to put it in.
Centaur Healer and Thragtusk kept opponent in life while Thalia wrecked my tempo. Restoration Angel blinked out my Terminates, Sigarda shut down Gatekeeper late and I lost every time she hit the field. Rancor and Charm trampled over my chump blockers and Ajani's abilities and Gavony made their dorks as big or bigger than my vamps.
But wait. It gets worse.
The hardest to deal with was Loxodon Smiter. I thought I had an advantage not facing Mirran Crusaders or Blade Splicers. I was wrong. Smiter can't be hit with Inquisition, can't be killed with Lightning Bolt, and he's usually played off a dork, so Gatekeeper misses too. The times I removed with Terminate my opponent slapped down a Restoration or Sublime turn 4 and proceeded to beat face. I don't even think Nighthawk would have helped much. I was simply out-gunned. I was fortunate they were not running Strangleroot or I may not have won the few games I did.
I love vamps, and would love for them to make a strong showing in this format, but I just got totally pummeled by a standard deck :/
The only saving grace as that GW aggro/midrange is currently tier 1.
Modern
RBig RedR
GMean GreenG
WWW AlliesW
BGScavengeBG
WUVenser SilenceWU
EDH
RWAurelia 1 vs 1RW
GWURoonGWU
GWSaffiGW
Yikes!
They have powerful creatures but, they don't have very good card advantage. Avoiding casting removal unless fewer than 4 lands are untapped. Avoid using discard when they have less than 3 cards in hand, use thoughtseize when they are at 4 mana to try and snipe a thragtusk. Their pump will be card disadvantage if you can remove their bodies.
There is a Modern GW deck I have seen running around that plays Thalia, Smiter and tops out with Wilt-Leaf Liege. It is pretty big on creatures but low on removal/card advantage (usually only playing path and not even always 4). It sounds real dumb... but I board out the bloodghasts and board in captivating vampires. I don't kill them with damage, I kill them with card advantage. Nobody takes captivating vampire seriously until it is too late and the opposing deck doesn't have removal for captivating and confidant. You can sometimes start stealing their largest creature as early as turn 4. This is the only reason I have captivating vampire in my list: for the green white/doran lists that run 99% creatures. Disclaimer: I do not endorse playing captivating vampire in any other situations.
Looking at your list again I can see how your burn would have felt pretty dead, but in the Modern format a lot of the most powerful creatures have 1-2 toughness.
Also, you have good card selection with all your Scry, but if you had Liliana and Confidant you would have a lot more card advantage.
Olivia is another good option. She can completely dominate a game by herself against a creature deck.
Having Olivia or Bonfire on your sideboard can also really help against Lingering Souls which gives all aggro decks trouble.
Don't worry about Thragtusk and Sigarda, they are very good, but way too slow for Modern except as a fringe sideboard card.
This is where you somehow misinterpreted. This discussion was NEVER about seer vs noble. I asked a simple question. "Why play noble in your deck." Period. And for some reason you got defensive and felt a need to attack my suggestion of seer for other peoples' decks(where it would synergize), and boorishly called me out to display my deck so you could find more things to tear apart.
Those things are irrelevant. The question was merely "why play noble." Which is something youve yet to really answer. Youve stated that its a passable yet inferior-to-lacerator turn 1 play assuming you spend your following 2-3 turns coddling it and they have no removal. And an effectively dead card all other times. So i ask again, "why play noble?" You complain of running your hand out too fast, so maybe you should adjust and put a 2 drop in the slot. That would be a sensible alternative. It would allow you more leniency in your first few terms(becuase options are helpful in magic). It would give you more steam, a better topdeck mode, and its not like youre at a lack of 1 mana plays between ioks, seize, lacerator, and "killing their dudes" with bolt. But instead you chose to ignore that completely logical suggestion due to some percieved rivalry between noble and seer as if no other cards exist.
When did I state "that its a passable yet inferior-to-lacerator turn 1"?
I think both are pretty similar... bad if they aren't sideways, good if they are.
Also when did I "complain of running your hand out too fast"?
I try to run my hand out quickly. That is one of my goals so that I have more cards active in the early game and I can potentially start spamming Liliana's +1 with impunity, refueling with Confidant or attacking with Highborn to push through lethal damage.
I play Noble because I focus on a tempo advantage. My list is geared for tempo so playing Noble makes sense. If you are playing a more tempo based deck, you should be playing 1 mana attackers. If you are playing a more midrange or controlling deck, you should be playing less 1 mana creatures. It depends on your deck.
Even if you don't post your own list, at least use someone else' list for context when you are talking about the value of cards. I am not looking to "tear apart your list" I just want to talk with context so we don't continue to talk in circles.
Thalia -> Smiter/Centaur/Ajani -> Angel/Garruk -> Trag/Sigarda is just a tough gig.
I wish Inquisition was Despise for this match up.
I'm also thinking I should go ahead and burn a bolt on a turn 1 dork. It seems like such a waste.
It's also counter intuitive to pilot an aggro deck and play reactionary in an attempt to slow down a midrange deck. That's whack and feels like lose.
It's true that most games were lost due to both of us in top deck mode and the GW deck just having more robust draws. I did try siding in 2 Sign in Blood but just never saw them, even with all the scrying. Bad luck maybe. Bob could be good. Captivating is interesting. I could see it.
I play Olivia in BR Control for standard, and yes, she can take over a game. She's just so mid/control. I have a hard time seeing her in a Vamps deck that is streamlined for speed but I think this is the route I will go along with some Nighthawks.
-Rain of Gore
-Dreadbore
+Nighthawk
+Olivia
2 Smash to Smithereens
2 Rakdos Charm
2 Brimstone Volley
2 Sign In Blood
2 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Olivia Voldaren
Game 2:
-3 Stromkirk Captain
-3 Viscera Seer
+2 Sign In Blood (CA)
+2 Vampire Nighthawk (Sublime/Resto/Sigarda)
+2 Olivia Voldaren (Wincon)
Thanks for the insights. I'll let you know how it goes.
P.S.: The GW Standard deck that pwns me belongs to and is piloted by my girlfriend. Yup. It's true..
Modern
RBig RedR
GMean GreenG
WWW AlliesW
BGScavengeBG
WUVenser SilenceWU
EDH
RWAurelia 1 vs 1RW
GWURoonGWU
GWSaffiGW
Sure thats fine to disagree =)
And any question you ask I am going to assume you are referring to the card as it is in my deck unless you otherwise specify.
The discard is the perfect compliment to the aggro + removal plan. I can snipe their answers so I can keep beating with what I have on the table. Or: Snipe threats that my removal is ineffective against. Vs. Jund for example, IoK on turn 2 is perfect because I can hope to hit Liliana. On turn 3 I can thoughtseize hoping to hit a bloodbraid. If they don't have what I am looking for, there are almost always other discard options for the first 4 turns of the game.
The fact that they are only one mana doesn't mean I have to play them on turn 1, I would still prefer a creature. The fact that they are 1 mana means I have the flexibility to use a discard spell on turn 2-4 and still have mana available to use in a more informed way.
Like you said "options are helpful in magic." With so many different cards, I can vary how I want them to trade for the best value. With so many low mana cards, I can vary their sequence while still keeping tempo. Having these options allows me to optimize their effect, efficiency and ultimately how my deck plays against my opponents. Without the discard, any potent value card like Bloodbraid Elf/Pyroclasm or any non-creature combo piece like Scapeshift/Pyromancer's ascension would be extremely hard to deal with.
@Aeon:
With the sweet removal package you already have, it isn't a big leap to play the reactionary game plan vs a creature deck. The only missing piece of the puzzle is card advantage so you don't run out of steam. I strongly suggest playtesting with proxies for Dark Confidant and Liliana if you don't want to spend the $$$. These two cards can literally transform your deck, they are the main reason I think this archetype can be powerful (the actual vampires are just the best BR creature filler, imo, LOL).
Also, the reason you want to play a streamlined aggro deck, is so that you can kill your opponent before they do their "big thing" later in the game. But since the GW deck's "big thing" is playing fat creatures with minimal removal... Olivia can simply shut them down and now you are the one doing the "big thing." Then they need to aggro you down, and if you kill their mana dorks they won't be able to do it fast enough. This applies to almost all the green white based creature decks in any format.
In the modern meta, one of the advantages of playing a black red based aggro deck is being able to bounce between the aggro, control and attrition role. (This is because you can play this money mix of interactive threats, removal, discard and card advantage.) So when you face a faster deck (like robots), you control them. When you face a slower deck (most of the field), you disrupt/attack them. In all situations you can be some level of aggressive while interacting with what you need to, and not easily running out of steam. It is like playing Jund but with much faster/slightly weaker creatures.
6 Swamp
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Blood Crypt
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Marsh Flats
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Kalastria Highborn
3 Vampire Nocturnus
4 Bloodghast
4 Dark Confidant
4 Viscera Seer
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
It's a very straightforward list. You can basically split it down by "cards that are good on their own" (which are Confidant, Inquisition, Liliana, Gatekeeper, Olivia and Nighthawk) and "cards that have synergy" (Bloodghast, Seer, Noctornus, Highborn). Although Aether Vial could absolutely fit in a more mid-range based list, because Confidant=card advantage and Vial helps you cast it quickly, and Highborn=can be mana-intensive, and Olivia=dominates the board if you have spare mana.
It's an updated version of Brawl into an epic, new game.
This gives you usually more options than iok, and doesnt cost the life of seize. Since by the time you play it their hand has thinned out in most matchups.
Your list looks cool! A nice midrange variation. Maybe play with 24 lands? I dunno, play it a lot and tweak it as problems arise. Nothing helps you refine your list better than playing lots of games. I have played with Aether Vial in a nocturnus list and it can allow for some pretty sweet stuff. If you play it you can probably play less Cavern of Souls and more Lavaclaw Reaches. I ultimately let Vial go because it was a dead draw later in the game and I began operating at a lower mana curve, but it might work well in a more midrange build like yours. (Instant speed lord in the middle of combat or in response to a bolt can be a real blow out.)
@NessOnett
Nice suggestion for sure, if the life loss from Thoughtseize becomes an issue, I will definitely consider Blackmail.
I might try 3x Liliana and maybe some more lands - I can see you having mana issues with this setup, especially with that many 4-drops in the deck. If you are missing a land drop T1-T3, you might as well scoop (not worth the risk). I am not sure what you would take out for the additional lands - I play a BR vampire aggro-control build (absent nocturnis). Also, Im not sure it is worth splashing red just for Olivia... the deck seems split. I would pick mono-black (with Nocturnis), or RB (without Nocturnis).
maybe...
-3 Vampire Nocturnis
-1 Liliana of the Veil
-1 Inquisition
-1 swamp
-2 Seer
+2 Lavaclaw reaches
+4 Lightning Bolt (or magma jet)
+2 Vampire Lascerator
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
Your list is very similar to mine, and that's why I wanted to pick your brain... Is there a reason you don't use Dark Confidant with such a low curve? How valuable are Stromkirk Captain and Viscrea Seer in this type of build? I wouldn't mind if you gave me your input on my list, the original post is in my signature (I've updated that post with the new cards as I tweak). Let's work on perfecting this style of modern vamps.
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague