could we splash red and go madcap experiment into blightsteel colossus ? we could run four runed halo and name madcap when we have it in hand or just use it as normal otherwise.
The combo Weaver + Freed is good, since the natural mana sink is another enchantment : Spinner. Apparently no need to add another mana sink like Ballista or Nylea or etc... It can be a SB consideration at best. The deck has D Sphere and Thin Ice to deal with "can't lose" effects (Worship, Platinum Emperion, etc...).
The combo doesn't win on the spot but can be protected by Grove. It's so annoying to play against Grove...
Hall of H's Generosity is a spell more than a land, it's very bad with all the colored requirements. Never used it, it might be too cute, only useful VS control decks, which may not be the nemesis of such a deck.
All the 3-cmc creatures are not necessary imho : Courser of Kruphix has never proven to be great in Modern, it's slow here, slots are precious. Setessan Champion is not an enchantment, and loading counters on it without evasion seems bad. It's a worse Champion of the Parish on paper. Maybe I'm wrong and it serves as good removal magnet in order to save the other more important creatures in the deck. I don't think the deck needs 12 enchantress effects anyway. Dryad of the Ilysian Grove doesn't synergize much unless I missed a boat. It ramps late but there's no enchantment-Primeval Titan to cast, unless a list goes in that direction. it's overall a Valakut card anyway.
Seal Away sucks and is only good vs Inkmoth Nexus, where Spreading Seas does the same job and more. Otherwise, a Journey to Nowhere will do the job better. Those slots are very open, but I like Seas on paper as a way to deal with Tron and other strong lands. Seal Away is here because of creature decks being everywhere and it's instant speed, but bad removal is bad.
Other wincons like Sigil of the Empty Throne seemed unnecessary in my games, since the combo works G1 pretty much all the time. Alt wincons in the SB is a thing though.
Sphere of Safety can save the day, but my experiencewith it was underwhelming. Often unnecessary, sometimes clutch when behind, more than 1 copy seems off-plan, but maybe a prison list can work too.
20 lands producing colored mana seems fine as long as the list has the lowest curve possible. I tried Arctic Treeline and co, not bad, not great, I don't have enough feedback with On Thin Ice to know whether we need such a land.
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@headminerve: The Freed from the Real combo is quite powerful, but it has some anti-synergy with Grove, as you want the get Grove out early to protect your board but you can't target Sanctum Weaver once you got Grove out.
As for the Dryad of the Ilysian Grove, it allows to dump extra lands that your draw engine will inevitably get you while providing a good body against aggro. It also allows to splash other colors out of the SB (my initial SB plan includes Blood Moon, which would require a complete retooling of the manabase though, probably playing Prismatic Vista as the only non-basics and the Freed from the Real combo which would be completely unexpected if your opponent thinks he is on a GW enchantress matchup after game 1).
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"De potentia juvenis somniabat, nunc de Mundo somniat..."
I've been playing Legacy Enchantress and many Commander variants cine early 2010's, and I think you guys are underestimating the power of enchantress...The most important core to this deck in Modern from my experience that doesn't change:
The rest are your flex spots and Silver Bullets and Hosers like Blood Moon, spreading Seas, etc. I've been brewing with much success so far since the spoiling of Enchantress's Presence. I've been brewing a 5 Colour 4x Blood Moon + 4x Spreading Seas
I've been playing Legacy Enchantress and many Commander variants cine early 2010's, and I think you guys are underestimating the power of enchantress...The most important core to this deck in Modern from my experience that doesn't change:
The rest are your flex spots and Silver Bullets and Hosers like Blood Moon, spreading Seas, etc. I've been brewing with much success so far since the spoiling of Enchantress's Presence. I've been brewing a 5 Colour 4x Blood Moon + 4x Spreading Seas
This.
Made another list integrating the Blood Moon prison maindeck. Still thinking the Dryad has some upside with the R and U splash.
The sideboard is a big toolbox to adapt to your opponent's strat. I don't actually know if these would be right or not (I dont play MTGO and don't know what is trending in Modern right now).
As far as I checked, Confinement and Grove are each on average 2-ofs in Legacy lists... By playing more of those, aren't we committing too much ?
I can see Confinement being more needed in Modern because we face a very different meta than Legacy : Burn, Storm, Tribal decks, Zoo's comeback, etc...
Grove as a 4-of, I'm not so sure anymore.
And Abundant Growth completely flew under my radar ! Not used to play Green devo decks in Modern (or Enchantress in Legacy, and it's not a match-up we encounter a lot), it's an OBVIOUS inclusion.
Thanks for the advice @sovietolga !
@shale warbringer, it's true that the nonbo is weird to play with, gotta crack the Grove sometimes... I believe it's worth it at least as a 1-of in the main deck, seems like a good out-of-nowhere wincon. And if played in more copies it gives a nice turn 3 kill against decks that don't interact.
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Keep in mind that Abundant Growth is quite useless here (aside from the cantrip attached to a CMC 1 enchantment) because it doesn't allow to ramp faster!
I think that this revamped 2017 list may add some good points to the discussion:
23 lands are not too much, but not too few either in order to see 4 in the first 4 turns.
No creatures in order to make useless the removal towards creatures.
Other spells 37 Accelerators 8:
4x Utopia's Sprawl
4x Simian Spirit Guide these two cards are our Llanowar Elves-Fhyndorn Elves and are mandatory to reach 3 mana on turn 2. The first one is better because it is an enchantement and because it is not volatile. With 3 mana we are able to begin casting our lock pieces.
Lock pieces 11:
4x Ghostly Prison
1x Sphere of Safety towards aggro-based decks, these enchantements are strong. The 2nd one is better from the mid-game afterwards.
4x Blood Moon the main lock of the maindeck.
2x Rest in Piece one of the (few) ways to interact directly with the opponent.
Drawers and tutors 8: these slots are the very last changes since 2017.
4x Sterling Grove good because it is a protection to the other enchantements while being a (slow) tutor for specific enchantements pre & post side.
4x Enchantress's Presence easy to cast on turn 2 (idk if it makes sense to play it that early, but you can do) and makes a huge card advantage if we are able to have the 2nd copy on the battlefield.
Closers 5: CMC 5 is the highest CMC acceptable in my opinion.
3-2x Assemble the Legion
2-3x Sigil of the Empty Throne I really like to have two different ways to win with different answers to them.
I highly disagree with you in regards to Abundant Growth, it fixes your mana perfectly which is very underrated, Especially if you're playing 4x Blood Moon. It not only replaces itself, be becomes draw 2 for 1 mana with an enchantress out which is HUGE and Ancestral Recall with 2 EE (Enchantress Effects).Blue decks wishes they could and I'd play 8 if I could.
I would also include 4x Sythis, Harvest's Hand, they're actually still great in multiples as it replaces itself with a draw and life gain trigger.
I'm a firm believer in 4x Sterling Grove in Modern since we don't have the luxury of playing enlightened tutor, not only do 2 Sterling Grove in play protect and lock your prison pieces but prevents each other from being targeted by your opponent trying to disrupt your board state control.
Furthermore, 4x Solitary Confinement is 100% better than ghostly prison, with two EE on board, you negate the chance of not paying the upkeep cost, not to mention that it prevents you from decking yourself and gives you the bonus of shroud! We don't have access to Elephant grass, and Ghostly Prison is much too slow for any aggressive deck.
I think that Abundant Growth is nice as mana fixer and cantip, but I don't really think that we have troubles with the mana base at all considering (at least in my list) the deck is GW with a R splash.
I think that Sythis, Harvest's Hand is not that strong here because one of the advantage of playing this deck is the ability to force the opponent to draw a lot of useless cards towards us (removals for creatures). Otherwise, Courser Kruphix would be a must-include.
4xSolitary Confinement is a big NO in my opinion. It is indeed a strong card, but it locks your hand preventing you from drawing UNLESS you have multiple ways to refill your hand.
===> 2x yes, 4x no in my opnion.
Simian Spirit Guide: the dex of this forum isn't updated, so sorry: it is my fault. Still, this deck need a non-creature way to have 3 mana on turn 2.
Still, this deck need a non-creature way to have 3 mana on turn 2.
Seems like Utopia Sprawl is the only card that does that. Abundant Growth is the Mishra's Bauble of this deck, I don't understand why you feel so doubtful about it. It draws into more lands, the same way Elvish Visionary does in Elves decks (which play only 18 lands, that's one reason why we don't cut Visionaries when a new sexy 2-drop is printed).
I think that Sythis, Harvest's Hand is not that strong here because one of the advantage of playing this deck is the ability to force the opponent to draw a lot of useless cards towards us (removals for creatures). Otherwise, Courser Kruphix would be a must-include.
Playing Sythis seems like a necessary evil. The deck can't function with only 4 enchantress effects. Yes it is a removal magnet. It's one argument in favor of playing 4x Sterling Grove btw.
I don't get why Courser would be an auto-include if Sythis is though, Courser is a very different card, much weaker than Sythis with a Solitary Confinement on the BF, it cannot snowball... at this cmc Setessan Champion is a stronger choice, right ?
23 lands are not too much, but not too few either in order to see 4 in the first 4 turns.
I would argue it's too many. If we don't play Sphere of Safety (that I believe is too cute in comparison with Confinement and Prison), we don't load on 5-cmc finishers, and we take advantage of Sanctum Weaver, since most spells cost 3 or less, 20-21 lands is fine.
Overall I think your preliminary list has too many spells that cost too much mana, that's why you feel like 23 is right. But the curve should be lowered as much as possible imho, so you can play more spells in fewer turns.
I feel like the goal is to lock the game early, so On Thin Ice is better than Oblivion Ring for example.
Right now the format is full of fast creature decks, so the deck needs a way to survive. 4x Blood Moon might be the wrong call in a meta with Boros Burn, Boros Prowess, Izzet Prowess, Vial decks, etc... Defining the tough MUs is key to build a coherent maindeck.
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@shale warbringer, it's true that the nonbo is weird to play with, gotta crack the Grove sometimes... I believe it's worth it at least as a 1-of in the main deck, seems like a good out-of-nowhere wincon. And if played in more copies it gives a nice turn 3 kill against decks that don't interact.
As powerful as an infinite mana combo can be, Freed from the Real on itself doesn't do much unless you have Weaver out and it requires another card to win the game (like Helix Pinnacle on turn one or any x spell that can one-shot the opponent). And that is assuming you go T1 Helix Pinnacle, T2 Weaver, T3 Freed without your opponent kiiling the weaver in response to the aura or during turn 2. I don't know if that should be the direction to go with the deck.
Courser Kruphix has limits in the "card advantage" it does because it basically allows you to play lands on the top of your library while gaining some useful hp towards Aggro, but it has a good trait: constitution = 4, a number out of Lightning Bolt-like removals.
By the way, my list should be changed because the loss of SSG is terrible becuase I can't play a 3 CMC lock on turn 2 (such as Blood Moon) anymore.
Basically a good enchantment deck should have these MUs:
* High chances to win towards Aggro.
* 50-50% chances towards Control.
* Hard times towards Combo, at least pre side.
Totally agree with your thoughts.
I was wondering if there is a way of spicying it up, like making a toolbox Enchantress deck deck, with 1-of Rest in peace, Freed from real(serious doubts with this card other than a deck with lots of tutors) and other side-board cards, maybe even Blood Moon. Idyllic Tutor + Sterling Grove would allow to find these cards easily but clunkily I believe. Crab Umbra is a card that allows Sanctum Weaver to combo, costs only U and the plus side is that at least it gives Totem Armor, and cycles if you have enchantress effects. Any thoughts?
I think that Abundant Growth is nice as mana fixer and cantip, but I don't really think that we have troubles with the mana base at all considering (at least in my list) the deck is GW with a R splash.
I think that Sythis, Harvest's Hand is not that strong here because one of the advantage of playing this deck is the ability to force the opponent to draw a lot of useless cards towards us (removals for creatures). Otherwise, Courser Kruphix would be a must-include.
4xSolitary Confinement in a big NO in my opinion. It is indeed a strong card, but it locks your hand preventing you from drawing UNLESS you have multiple ways to refill your hand.
===> 2x yes, 4x no in my opnion.
Simian Spirit Guide: the dex of this forum isn't updated, so sorry: it is my fault. Still, this deck need a non-creature way to have 3 mana on turn 2.
Dude, you are looking from a wrong side, modern is wild, no room for invention unless it is suuuuper smoooth
8 Forest
7 Plains
4 Temple Garden
4 Windbrisk Heights
Creatures (16)
4 Sanctum Weaver
2 Destiny Spinner
2 Sythis, Harvest's Hand
4 Setessan Champion
4 Dryad of the Ilysian Grove
4 Utopia Sprawl
2 Runed Halo
4 Sterling Grove
1 Quarantine Field
1 Rest in Peace
4 Enchantress's Presence
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Sphere of Safety
2 Sigil of the Empty Throne
4 Windbrisk Heights
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
5 Snow-Covered Forest
3 Snow-Covered Plains
2 Temple Garden
1 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Hall of Heliod's Generosity
4 Sanctum Weaver
4 Destiny Spinner
4 Sythis, Harvest's Hand
Spells (27)
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 On Thin Ice
4 Sterling Grove
2 Spreading Seas
2 Seal Away
4 Enchantress's Presence
3 Freed from the Real
2 Detention Sphere
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Sphere of Safety
Initial food for thought :
The combo Weaver + Freed is good, since the natural mana sink is another enchantment : Spinner. Apparently no need to add another mana sink like Ballista or Nylea or etc... It can be a SB consideration at best. The deck has D Sphere and Thin Ice to deal with "can't lose" effects (Worship, Platinum Emperion, etc...).
The combo doesn't win on the spot but can be protected by Grove. It's so annoying to play against Grove...
Hall of H's Generosity is a spell more than a land, it's very bad with all the colored requirements. Never used it, it might be too cute, only useful VS control decks, which may not be the nemesis of such a deck.
All the 3-cmc creatures are not necessary imho : Courser of Kruphix has never proven to be great in Modern, it's slow here, slots are precious.
Setessan Champion is not an enchantment, and loading counters on it without evasion seems bad. It's a worse Champion of the Parish on paper. Maybe I'm wrong and it serves as good removal magnet in order to save the other more important creatures in the deck. I don't think the deck needs 12 enchantress effects anyway.
Dryad of the Ilysian Grove doesn't synergize much unless I missed a boat. It ramps late but there's no enchantment-Primeval Titan to cast, unless a list goes in that direction. it's overall a Valakut card anyway.
Seal Away sucks and is only good vs Inkmoth Nexus, where Spreading Seas does the same job and more. Otherwise, a Journey to Nowhere will do the job better. Those slots are very open, but I like Seas on paper as a way to deal with Tron and other strong lands. Seal Away is here because of creature decks being everywhere and it's instant speed, but bad removal is bad.
Other wincons like Sigil of the Empty Throne seemed unnecessary in my games, since the combo works G1 pretty much all the time. Alt wincons in the SB is a thing though.
Sphere of Safety can save the day, but my experiencewith it was underwhelming. Often unnecessary, sometimes clutch when behind, more than 1 copy seems off-plan, but maybe a prison list can work too.
20 lands producing colored mana seems fine as long as the list has the lowest curve possible. I tried Arctic Treeline and co, not bad, not great, I don't have enough feedback with On Thin Ice to know whether we need such a land.
As for the Dryad of the Ilysian Grove, it allows to dump extra lands that your draw engine will inevitably get you while providing a good body against aggro. It also allows to splash other colors out of the SB (my initial SB plan includes Blood Moon, which would require a complete retooling of the manabase though, probably playing Prismatic Vista as the only non-basics and the Freed from the Real combo which would be completely unexpected if your opponent thinks he is on a GW enchantress matchup after game 1).
The rest are your flex spots and Silver Bullets and Hosers like Blood Moon, spreading Seas, etc. I've been brewing with much success so far since the spoiling of Enchantress's Presence. I've been brewing a 5 Colour 4x Blood Moon + 4x Spreading Seas
This.
Made another list integrating the Blood Moon prison maindeck. Still thinking the Dryad has some upside with the R and U splash.
The sideboard is a big toolbox to adapt to your opponent's strat. I don't actually know if these would be right or not (I dont play MTGO and don't know what is trending in Modern right now).
10 Snow-Covered Forest
7 Snow-Covered Plains
2 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Snow-Covered Island
4 Prismatic Vista
Creatures (13)
4 Sanctum Weaver
3 Sythis, Harvest's Hand
3 Destiny Spinner
3 Dryad of the Ilysian Grove
4 On Thin Ice
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Sterling Grove
1 Rest in Peace
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Blood Moon
1 Detention Sphere
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
2 Runed Halo
2 Stony Silence
2 Suppresion Field
1 Rest in Peace
1 Quarantine Field
1 Detention Sphere
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Sphere of Safety
I can see Confinement being more needed in Modern because we face a very different meta than Legacy : Burn, Storm, Tribal decks, Zoo's comeback, etc...
Grove as a 4-of, I'm not so sure anymore.
And Abundant Growth completely flew under my radar ! Not used to play Green devo decks in Modern (or Enchantress in Legacy, and it's not a match-up we encounter a lot), it's an OBVIOUS inclusion.
Thanks for the advice @sovietolga !
@shale warbringer, it's true that the nonbo is weird to play with, gotta crack the Grove sometimes... I believe it's worth it at least as a 1-of in the main deck, seems like a good out-of-nowhere wincon. And if played in more copies it gives a nice turn 3 kill against decks that don't interact.
I think that this revamped 2017 list may add some good points to the discussion:
Lands 23:
3 Arid Mesa
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Temple Garden
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Terreno Calpestabile
2 Fronde dell'Orizzonte
6 Forest
6 Plains
1 Mountain
23 lands are not too much, but not too few either in order to see 4 in the first 4 turns.
No creatures in order to make useless the removal towards creatures.
Other spells 37
Accelerators 8:
4x Utopia's Sprawl
4x Simian Spirit Guide these two cards are our Llanowar Elves-Fhyndorn Elves and are mandatory to reach 3 mana on turn 2. The first one is better because it is an enchantement and because it is not volatile. With 3 mana we are able to begin casting our lock pieces.
Lock pieces 11:
4x Ghostly Prison
1x Sphere of Safety towards aggro-based decks, these enchantements are strong. The 2nd one is better from the mid-game afterwards.
4x Blood Moon the main lock of the maindeck.
2x Rest in Piece one of the (few) ways to interact directly with the opponent.
Removals 5:
5x Oblivion Ring/Honor of the Pure basically, the same card with two different names. It is basically our Modern Vindicate.
Drawers and tutors 8: these slots are the very last changes since 2017.
4x Sterling Grove good because it is a protection to the other enchantements while being a (slow) tutor for specific enchantements pre & post side.
4x Enchantress's Presence easy to cast on turn 2 (idk if it makes sense to play it that early, but you can do) and makes a huge card advantage if we are able to have the 2nd copy on the battlefield.
Closers 5: CMC 5 is the highest CMC acceptable in my opinion.
3-2x Assemble the Legion
2-3x Sigil of the Empty Throne I really like to have two different ways to win with different answers to them.
Any thought?
I would also include 4x Sythis, Harvest's Hand, they're actually still great in multiples as it replaces itself with a draw and life gain trigger.
I'm a firm believer in 4x Sterling Grove in Modern since we don't have the luxury of playing enlightened tutor, not only do 2 Sterling Grove in play protect and lock your prison pieces but prevents each other from being targeted by your opponent trying to disrupt your board state control.
Furthermore, 4x Solitary Confinement is 100% better than ghostly prison, with two EE on board, you negate the chance of not paying the upkeep cost, not to mention that it prevents you from decking yourself and gives you the bonus of shroud! We don't have access to Elephant grass, and Ghostly Prison is much too slow for any aggressive deck.
PS Simian Spirit Guide is banned in Modern
I think that Sythis, Harvest's Hand is not that strong here because one of the advantage of playing this deck is the ability to force the opponent to draw a lot of useless cards towards us (removals for creatures). Otherwise, Courser Kruphix would be a must-include.
4x Solitary Confinement is a big NO in my opinion. It is indeed a strong card, but it locks your hand preventing you from drawing UNLESS you have multiple ways to refill your hand.
===> 2x yes, 4x no in my opnion.
Seems like Utopia Sprawl is the only card that does that.
Abundant Growth is the Mishra's Bauble of this deck, I don't understand why you feel so doubtful about it. It draws into more lands, the same way Elvish Visionary does in Elves decks (which play only 18 lands, that's one reason why we don't cut Visionaries when a new sexy 2-drop is printed).
Playing Sythis seems like a necessary evil. The deck can't function with only 4 enchantress effects. Yes it is a removal magnet. It's one argument in favor of playing 4x Sterling Grove btw.
I don't get why Courser would be an auto-include if Sythis is though, Courser is a very different card, much weaker than Sythis with a Solitary Confinement on the BF, it cannot snowball... at this cmc Setessan Champion is a stronger choice, right ?
I would argue it's too many. If we don't play Sphere of Safety (that I believe is too cute in comparison with Confinement and Prison), we don't load on 5-cmc finishers, and we take advantage of Sanctum Weaver, since most spells cost 3 or less, 20-21 lands is fine.
Overall I think your preliminary list has too many spells that cost too much mana, that's why you feel like 23 is right. But the curve should be lowered as much as possible imho, so you can play more spells in fewer turns.
I feel like the goal is to lock the game early, so On Thin Ice is better than Oblivion Ring for example.
Right now the format is full of fast creature decks, so the deck needs a way to survive. 4x Blood Moon might be the wrong call in a meta with Boros Burn, Boros Prowess, Izzet Prowess, Vial decks, etc... Defining the tough MUs is key to build a coherent maindeck.
As powerful as an infinite mana combo can be, Freed from the Real on itself doesn't do much unless you have Weaver out and it requires another card to win the game (like Helix Pinnacle on turn one or any x spell that can one-shot the opponent). And that is assuming you go T1 Helix Pinnacle, T2 Weaver, T3 Freed without your opponent kiiling the weaver in response to the aura or during turn 2. I don't know if that should be the direction to go with the deck.
Courser Kruphix has limits in the "card advantage" it does because it basically allows you to play lands on the top of your library while gaining some useful hp towards Aggro, but it has a good trait: constitution = 4, a number out of Lightning Bolt-like removals.
I didn't knew Setessan Champion but i think that is quite good: draw engine and a chump-blocker/finisher. This makes this creature less dependant on Sterling Grove than Sythis, Harvest's Hand.
On Thin Ice vs Oblivion Ring is a choice between speed vs versatility.
By the way, my list should be changed because the loss of SSG is terrible becuase I can't play a 3 CMC lock on turn 2 (such as Blood Moon) anymore.
Basically a good enchantment deck should have these MUs:
* High chances to win towards Aggro.
* 50-50% chances towards Control.
* Hard times towards Combo, at least pre side.
I was wondering if there is a way of spicying it up, like making a toolbox Enchantress deck deck, with 1-of Rest in peace, Freed from real(serious doubts with this card other than a deck with lots of tutors) and other side-board cards, maybe even Blood Moon. Idyllic Tutor + Sterling Grove would allow to find these cards easily but clunkily I believe.
Crab Umbra is a card that allows Sanctum Weaver to combo, costs only U and the plus side is that at least it gives Totem Armor, and cycles if you have enchantress effects. Any thoughts?
Dude, you are looking from a wrong side, modern is wild, no room for invention unless it is suuuuper smoooth