G/r Deathtouch Ping is exactly what the name suggests. This mid-range deck tries to an early game pinging deathtoucher to interact with and clear the opponent's field out for a win. Ideal plays are T1 play Narnam Renegade or Wasteland Viper, T2 Enchant with Power of Fire or Fire Whip and also T1 Birds of Paradise, T2 Rhonas the Indomitable, T3 enchant or equip with ping ability.
Rhonas is a great, resilient early game pinger that can slow your opponent's game plan and give you time to build up a board state they can't deal with. Of course, these cards demand an opponent to interact with our cards (kill creatures/enchantments) or be locked out of the game early. Cards like Ripjaw Raptor, Shapers' Sanctuary and Viridian Longbow give us some resilience and staying power against decks that come packing a good suite of removal themselves. Finally, Scryb Ranger is an MVP that allows us to get multiple ping interactions off one pinger, to perform combat tricks (attack then untap for blockers) and to round out/accelerate mana when needed (tap forest play forest, tap again, untap Birds of Paradise, etc). Finally Rhonas and Ripjaw get in for beats, applying pressure that a ping deck sorely needs.
There are other deathtouch ping lists out there (like G/B Longbow for instance) but they are all lacking something IMHO, whether that is speed, consistency or resiliency or just the ability to apply enough pressure. This is my attempt at building a ping deck addresses some of those shortfalls.
A Personal Introduction
Hey everyone! This will be my first post on MTG Salvation in at least a couple years. I've been an MTG player since 2009 and up until recently, my friends and I have been primarily Legacy players. We were frequenters of the local Legacy tournament scene here in AZ but as card prices have risen, the pool of Legacy players has dwindled. A couple years ago the Legacy scene hit an all-time low and my buddies and I were showing up at the local game shops for Legacy tournaments that weren't firing off due to too few players. Legacy died out and I went on hiatus with it. My MTG days became relegated to the kitchen table gatherings my group continued to have once a month.
But then a few months ago one of my buddies told me he had built a few Modern tournament decks (Spirits and Arclight Phoenix) and was starting to go to tournaments again. He suggested I join him. And now here I am.
I've always been a player who runs off-the-wall stuff and prefers to brew his own builds for competitive play. My favorite deck I ever built was Angry Birds for Legacy which has a primer in the budget section of the Legacy forums here. I've also piloted Four Horsemen (before the slow play rule change), Spanish Inquisition in all its forms, Foodchain Elves and a G/W aggro/tempo deck called Dubstep I made for Legacy. That should give an idea to some of the obscure things I like to play.
That said, I still had little experience with Modern. My friend suggested I join him for a tournament and since I didn't want to put too much investment into the format initially, I looked through the already built decks I own for something that could be ported to Modern easily. Low and behold, I realized my G/R ping deathtouch deck I had built for casual play was already mostly modern legal. I wondered what would happen if I tried to tune the deck to be more competitive. The gears started turning for the first time in a while and I set off to work. In the end, I came up with this initial list:
I had the chance to do some rough playtesting on TappedOut against my friend's Arclight Phoenix list, Bant Spirits and Death's Shadow. My deck wasn't just rolling over and folding so I figured that was a good sign, although, I was still hesitant to go to a tournament, figuring I was going to get walked all over. My buddy and I figured control decks would probably be the toughest matchup for the list.
Anyways, I won't spend too much time breaking down the list above because it is not my current list today. Needless to say, I went to my first Modern tournament with that deck up there and a hodgepodge sideboard with some Choke, Trinisphere, Beast Within, gravehate and I don't remember what else.
I went into the tournament with my unrefined pile of 75, flying pretty blind on the Modern Meta and walked out having gone 2-2 in the rounds, winning 5 games and losing 3. Not fantastic but certainly better than I hoped for in my first Modern tournament! More importantly, I walked out with a lot of knowledge.
I played against Jeskai Control (Lost first game, won second, went to turns in the third and gave the win to him). Round two I was against some sort of U/R control deck with Kiki combo as the finisher. I lost both games to that deck although they were fairly close games (I got him to 3 life game one and 1 life game two). Game three was against my friend and his U/W spirits deck. I took that game 2-0 and then the final round was against a U/W wall aggro deck which I had a very strong two games against.
Against the control decks, I did not have the ability to put enough pressure on them to push through the permission to win. It was as my friend and I expected; my ping deck has a weaker matchup against grindy control decks that can outgrind me. So I went back to the drawing boards and in the past month or so have put together the following list.
So far, the deck is running pretty smoothly. While I understand that this idea is likely never going to be Tier 1 or Tier 2 material, my goal really is to see how far I can take the idea to build the most competitive ping deathtouch deck possible. After doing some research online, I've come across a Modern G/B deathtouch deck running Viridian Longbow that has been featured in an article or two and some YouTube videos so I know the idea has some merit. Plus my playtesting suggests it is a deck that can steal some wins against other competitive decks.
I'll be revising and adding to this primary post later but for now I wanted to mention a few thoughts on the deck. If you can get a pinging deathtoucher up and running on the field, most decks that rely on creatures to win are going to struggle. One of the things I don't like about the G/B Longbow lists is that they are limited to the equipment and miss out on the opportunity to run the red enchantments that give ping. The inclusion of red allows us to up the number of ping effects in the deck for redundancy but they also do something far more important, IMHO. The bring speed.
With the number of efficient 1 mana deathtouch creatures these days, this seems significant. On turn one, you drop a deathtoucher then turn two cast either a Firewhip or Power of Fire for an active pinger on turn two. This kind of play forces the other player to have an answer in hand or otherwise be shut out earlier on in the game.
Granted, most decks do run a fair amount of removal which is where I have worked to add in some resiliency. Deadly Recluse has this cute interaction with Swarmyard that does a great job of blanking most red removal and some primary black removal such as Fatal Push. Rhonas the Indomitable is indestructible as well. Rhonas is an amazing card for this deck because he adds resilience and is a great target for a ping enchantment (he does not need to be active to ping). He also speeds up our clock by boosting our creatures' power once we have cleared the field. I was originally running Hornet Nest in the deck to pair with a ping enchantment but there were times where Hornet Nest was honestly a dead card in the hand or on the board (even with its nice synergy with Swarmyard). Then I discovered Ripjaw Raptor which is an intrinsically great card on its own (speeding up our clock, turning on Rhonas, refilling our hand) but also very synergistic with the ping enchantments also. Shapers' Sanctuary also helps to rebuild our hand and punish the opponent for interacting with our creatures. And if they aren't targeting our creatures, chances are they are losing anyways.
Scryb Ranger is an MVP. Its ability pairs nicely with our land drops and Birds of Paradise to ramp mana for us. It also allows us to ping multiple times with one creature (ping once, use Scryb's ability to return a forest, replay the forest, ping again, then pass turn and activate his ability on opponent's turn to ping a third time). This means you can machine gun the field or draw a cluster of cards off of Ripjaw Raptor. Scryb also as the benefit of blocking certain flying humans and spirits.
I'll be sure to work on organizing this post a little better in the coming days but wanted to at least get something out here to share. I'm looking for feedback and ideas on this. I know other deathtouch ping lists exist but I've always felt they could have been improved on. This is my take and I'd like to get some extra eyes on it to help refine the list.
Hello Madcat. I wondered where you had gone! I see you're still playing some interesting builds.
If your aim is to have some competitiveness, I think you might want to include some utility lands, namely cards like ghost quarter or field of ruin. They would give you a fair shot at decks like tron where you get a chance to disrupt them while setting up your engine. The only card you have with a double color requirement is ripjaw raptor and you're only playing 4 of him at most.
Second, are you only playing "Tims" to get your win or as a form of opponent creature control while your big beaters bring it home? If it is the former, I really think you want to be able to do it both turns (yours and theirs). Scryb ranger is going towards that already, of course. If it was casual enough, seedborne muse becomes my go to suggestion. Of course, a 2/4 for 5 doesn't really offer much on its own, so quest for the gemblades might be a better option. I would recommend neither as more than a 2 of, though.
Even though you're in red which allows for better removal, have you given any thought to the fight mechanic? Prey upon or pit fight seem like interesting inclusion possibilities.
Shaper's Sanctuary looks more like a sideboard card than in the main.
Suggesting to move those to the side, and then put 3 Faithless looting to give some filtering and dig power to the deck.
Hey Weltkrieg! Long-time no talk! It's great to see you again and to know that you are still out here. It is strange coming back after being a few years out of the game. I feel like there is a lot for me to catch up on. Life has changed quite a bit for me too (I'm married now!) so I don't have quite the level of time to devote to deck building as I used to. But I certainly am putting as much time into this as I possibly can and I have an interest in being competitive, not casual.
As for this deck, I am under no illusions that this is going to suddenly become a tier deck. That said, new, competitive decks all have to start somewhere. A lot of ideas don't get there but when I have an idea, I am interested in taking it as far as I possibly can. Somewhat surprisingly (to even me!), I think there is some potential to pinging effects being competitive in this format; and I'd like to take that to its ideal, however far that goes. Outside of dropping the idea of pinging stuff (at which point this becomes another deck entirely), I am open to anything.
I definitely have given strong consideration to running Field of Ruin in this deck. It makes a lot of sense and shores up my matchups against stuff like Tron (which I have admittedly not played against at a tournament yet). I don't see Seedborne Muse or Quest for the Gemblades being strong enough. In a much older, strictly casual version of a ping deck I had in the past, I did run both of those cards at some point, though.
So to answer your question, I don't see this deck as being strictly ping and that is out of necessity. I need enough deathtouchers and ping activators for consistency and redundancy but I've also felt that it runs into the danger of not being able to apply the necessary pressure. This results in matches going to time and/or eventually losing to my opponent's lucky topdecking. I definitely think some combination of the deathtouch/ping soft-lock engine and then cards that apply pressure is the correct way to build this.
Even other lists I've seen such as the G/B Longbow deck seem slow; slow enough that they lose games due to lack of applied pressure on the opponent. The other challenge I see is getting to a point in the game where I myself am in top deck mode. Going into topdeck and whiffing on a bunch of land draws is rough.
I have definitely considered the fight mechanics. Things like Prey Upon are great but in this deck I have to ask myself "is this better than something that gives my creature ping to do the same thing but repeatedly?" Since this deck is built around mopping up creature strategies, I haven't necessarily felt the need for more spot-creature removal. That said, I did mess around with a green/black version of the deck in which I ran a playset of Ulvenwald Tracker.
Further down this post, I'll share a new test list I have been working with. There are a few changes I've made and one that I really like is the addition of a 1-of Arena. At first I didn't like it, but a fetchable, uncounterable, difficult to remove "ping" card really gives this deck a way to work around some problems while also increasing consistency. Plus Arena works on tapped creatures as well. Consider this. You have Rhonas enchanted with Power of Fire. The opponent has two creatures out and you don't have a Scryb Rangers in play for double activations. With Arena in play, you can ping one creature with Rhonas, then activate Arena to have Rhonas fight the other creature, clearing out both creatures on the field. Being able to kill more than one creature off one active pinger is amazing for this deck against other decks that have the ability to go wide and play around one ping activation a turn. I have found that few decks can deal with two creature kills per turn.
The Fluff, thanks for the great suggestion. I also found Shapers' Sanctuary to be ultimately lacking in the main as I playtested it more. It may find some slots in the SB but I'm not sure yet. I can't believe I haven't tried Faithless Looting in that slot yet. It's one of the best cards in red and if I can find a way to fit it in, I think it would help the deck filter greatly. Since pulling Shapers' Sanctuary, I tried testing Keen Sense again which is what originally filled that slot but feel it can be a bit "win more". If I can land a Keen Sense and start drawing cards off of it, I'm probably winning the game anyways.
I actually swapped out the Ripjaw Raptor to try Hornet Nest again and also Chameleon Colossus. I have Chameleon in the slot currently and like it. The Colossus closes out games quickly and plays nice with Swarmyard. Plus protection from Black is nice against Fatal Push and a host of other Modern cards like Death's Shadow. For the slot of Shapers' Sanctuary, I tried running Smuggler's Copter (snakes on a plane!!! Lol) and liked that it helped filter cards while also getting in for damage and making lone one-drop deathtouchers or an inactive Rhonas more useful. Then I considered actually just running Ripjaw Raptor in place of Shaper's Sanctuary and having both Chameleon Colossus and Ripjaw in the list. Running more activators for Rhonas means he can also attack more often. It's a way to go up on beaters without hurting the consistency of the ping engine. I've also tried Thrun, the Last Troll in this spot for a little more resilience. Plus, I like Thrun with cards like Arena.
Here's the most recent list I've been playing around with, subject to change:
I have been playtesting the deck a lot on TappedOut against as many major archetypes as I can. I am starting to record my results so I can more systematically determine the deck's weak matchups and evaluate why those are tough matchups and whether there are ways of finetuning the main deck to improve win percentages. Once I have enough data, I'll post it on here for reference. Once the maindeck is feeling about as solid as I can make it, I'll spend some more time working on the SB.
Thanks to you both for your great feedback on this! I am interested to hear any more thoughts or opinions you have, especially on this most recent list.
PS: I posted the list in Budget because it is under $400 to build and I felt that it was more budget in costs but I am wondering if 'Developing' would have been a more suitable forum for this.
PPS: I like the way the deck plays now but I have considered whether I am running the right ratio of ping activators. Currently, the deck is running 11x plus Arena. I have considered testing a list that goes down to 8x (Longbow and Firewhip) and uses the free slots to up the creature threat density and/or card filtering
Nice to see you here Madcat. It was a long time ago.. I've been seeing you post in the Legacy forums.
I don't really have much to suggest except. Maybe have one more colossus in the sideboard. Should be good against the Grixis Shadow decks, if ever you encounter them. Because the colossus laughs at Gurmag Angler, Death Shadow, and Tasigur. One of the few ways they could kill a resolved colossus is to surprise block it with snapcaster + bolt.
Thanks Fluff! I was pretty sure we had interacted from before also but I wasn't 100% certain.
I think running an extra Colossus in the side is a great idea. I did play against Death's Shadow in a local tournament. The games were really close but I ended up going 1-2 against him. This was pre-Colossus for my list though so I hope my matchup against the deck will be better now.
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Force of Will is kind of like duct tape. Stick it in a deck and it will fix all your problems.
What would a game of Magic between Harry Potter and Voldemort look like?
It's going to sound like a weird suggestion, but I think one thing you noted here is that you can kill a lot of creatures but sometimes have trouble closing games out. I think combat celebrant might be a potential solution. If you untap with it, it's probably going to win you the game (assuming there is a rhonas there). It has four power, which is the sweet spot with rhonas, and if you have a scryb ranger out, you are exert proof, too.
Thanks Fluff! I was pretty sure we had interacted from before also but I wasn't 100% certain.
I think running an extra Colossus in the side is a great idea. I did play against Death's Shadow in a local tournament. The games were really close but I ended up going 1-2 against him. This was pre-Colossus for my list though so I hope my matchup against the deck will be better now.
You're welcome. Well, you have the advantage of being a rogue deck.. so at first people won't be sure what to do. Having many auras opens you up being 2 for one'd by removal heavy decks.. though I think swarmyard and rhonas help the deck become more resilient to that problem.
Are the birds of paraidse being useful?
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Nice to see you Weltkrieg. Saw you years ago at the legacy forums helping people at the budget section.
Weltkrieg, that is a really interesting suggestion. I definitely see the potential synergy and power of Combat Celebrant in this deck. I'm going to give that a try and see how that goes.
Fluff, I am testing out a list that drops the Power of Fire for Faithless Looting. Going down to 4x Fire Whip and 4x Veridian Longbow doesn't seem too bad. Veridian helps out some with not getting two for one'd. I do like Birds. The 1 drop mana dork allows me to drop a t2 Rhonas and equip/enchant Veridian or Firewhip on t3. Against certain decks I do feel that it is crucial to get a pinger online on either t2 or t3.
PS: I have been kicking around the idea of Blood Moon or Magus of the Moon for this deck. I've been running Chokes in the side but I think Blood Moon is better against more of the field and the manabase should support it just fine. Although, Swarmyard and Arena are anti-synergistic, bringing in Blood Moons against the right deck seems like it could be devastating.
Fluff, I am testing out a list that drops the Power of Fire for Faithless Looting. Going down to 4x Fire Whip and 4x Veridian Longbow doesn't seem too bad. Veridian helps out some with not getting two for one'd. I do like Birds. The 1 drop mana dork allows me to drop a t2 Rhonas and equip/enchant Veridian or Firewhip on t3. Against certain decks I do feel that it is crucial to get a pinger online on either t2 or t3.
In my opinion, 8 "ping" spells are enough. Faithless Looting is a busted modern card right now... it will help give your deck some velocity. Topdeck a bad card? Not a problem, flashback looting to replace that bad topdeck with something better.
Hey Fluff, I agree! Faithless Looting lends a lot of consistency to the deck. I can't believe I didn't think to run it sooner but in all my playtesting I have been very happy with it in this list.
Thanks for the tip Fluff. I may try Bloodgift Demon in the deck if I go back to looking at a G/B list.
PS: The new Vraska, Swarm's Eminence plainswalker spoiled in War of the Spark looks like a potential consideration for this deck. The wording 'deals damage' vs 'deals combat damage' is especially relevant for this deck.
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Force of Will is kind of like duct tape. Stick it in a deck and it will fix all your problems.
What would a game of Magic between Harry Potter and Voldemort look like?
The new Vraska looks like a good fit for the deck, because you have so many deathtouch creates. She also creatues creatures, giving some grind power to the deck. I just wonder how many Vraska the deck needs one or two or none? Testing will answer...
I tested your list at the beginning but I'm not very sold on it (because I tested it against some pet decks I have and it doesn't win consistently), but since the printing of the new vraska I thought that she would be bonkers in this deck and well She has been already suggested
Also I think there are lot of good creatures with deathtouch for your GB list like Gifted aetherborn and vampire nighthawk that will also help you to close the game while survive a lot.
Finally I was thinking if with the new vraska a mono black list would be possible (perhaps including red splash for whip), but I've always wanted to build a succesfuld assassins deck (that by the way usually have deathtouch) and that can exploit tribal assassins shenanigans (Scarblade Elite I'm looking at you ). If I build the list and you are interested I can also share.
Hey everyone! Sorry I have not replied back in awhile. I have been travelling abroad in Ireland for the past couple weeks. Still not home yet so I don't have a lot of opportunity for testing until I get back but I did have some new thoughts to share.
Thanks Pcrusader for jumping into the conversation! I'd be curious to hear what decks you tested my list against (especially the ones it was losing to). I will say there are some decks that this does not fair well against (Bogles seems like an auto-lose for Ping). Other decks like Grixis Death's Shadow, Humans, Spirits and even Phoenix seem possible to win against. Jeskai Control can be winnable with proper sideboarding, I think.
I have not playtested against much combo, nor run into any combo decks at my local stores so I'm not too share how we fare there. My guess is not great but the SB may help.
I have had a chance to test out Combat Celebrant at Weltkrieg's suggestion. It seems quite strong in this deck. The synergy is great and it closes games out very quickly when it gets a chance to swing in.
Black does bring with it a lot of nice options for deathtouch creatures but I was not sold on a G/B list. You have more deathtouch creatures to choose from but you lose the consistency and speed that Red brings in getting your pingers online.
I also have a hard time walking away from green because of Scryb Ranger which seems absolutely clutch in this deck. Scryb let's you sweep the field (killing two creatures on your turn and another when you pass the turn to your opponent) among other things.
That said if I was going to explore another color, I'd probably look at B/R and see how that runs. Vampire Nighthawk and Gifted Aetherborn are very strong.
A mono-black list would be interesting as well. If you build it, you should definitely share Pcrusader! I am interested in this thread being about building the best deathtouch/ping deck possible and very open to different lists being shared because that brings innovation.
The more I think about Vraska, the less I am sure about her. She is really only good if we have a pinger online already and her main ability to give our creatures +1/+1 counters relies on us using our pingers to directly ping our opponent (or attack). My thought here is that we mostly want to be pinging their creatures, not the player themselves. And then when it comes to getting in for more damage, the process of building up those +1/+1 counters to get more damage in just seems too slow compared to other options (Combat Celebrant?).
Given those thoughts, the ability to generate a 1/1 deathtoucher for 4 mana just seems bad. I could be wrong of course and do plan on testing her either way. Maybe she will play out better in games than it appears she will on paper.
PS: What do you guys think about God-Eternal Rhonas? That card seems very intriguing! It's a little expensive at 5 mana but seems like it might be worth a test as maybe a one-of.
Madcat, have you considered Thornbite Staff? It looks better than Viridian longbow, because the staff untaps the creature if something get's killed. You could potentially kill an opponent's entire board with this card.
Hey! Just sending this out on a quick work break so I'll share more later but I still wanted to jump in briefly with some thoughts.
Fluff, I have considered Thornbite Staff. I do think the untap ability is fantastic but my concern with the card is how costly it is (to cast, equip, activate). It puts a pretty heavy strain on resources. I think Scryb Ranger helps to give a similar ability with untaps without being quite as costly. My concern is getting the Thornbite online is going to be slow.
On a side note, I took G/R Ping to a local tournament this past Friday and went 2-2. The matches were as follows:
2-1 against Izzet Phoenix
2-0 against Humans
0-2 against U/W Control (although game two was very close)
0-2 against Death's Shadow (game 1 was quad Thoughtsiezed, game 2 he sided 10 creature removal cards against me)
The Death's Shadow match was really rough but the U/W Control deck seemed winnable, especially if I just do a little more tailoring of my SB. Plus I was short a couple cards from my list online, most notably the fourth Scryb Rangers.
Combat Celebrant was a house!
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Force of Will is kind of like duct tape. Stick it in a deck and it will fix all your problems.
What would a game of Magic between Harry Potter and Voldemort look like?
Hello madcat! I am glad to see your deck is doing well and that my suggestion of combat celebrant panned out!
I don't think god eternal rhonas is particularly good here. Most of your other threats aren't particularly big by their own and something like this won't do much to add to that.
U/W control seems difficult. I think rhythm of the wild might be a valid solution here. Option of haste and giving a finger to the almighty counterspell seems pretty good. If you have a flex slot available, 2 main and maybe a 3rd (or 2 more) sideboard might be an option. Most decks that will give you trouble will be running cards like remand, mana leak, logic knot, or cryptic command to slow you down and this answers those proactively. Unfortunately, most of your deck isn't particularly beefy so hard core control will probably still be problematic.
You say the death's shadow match sided in 10 creature removal cards? Which were they? If we know more, we can theorycraft better ways to answer them. However, one suggestion that comes to mind is a burn package. You run what, 8 creature enhancement effects that aren't great here? I mean, yes you should have an advantage if you can get them down and kill the creatures, but that takes a lot of time and mana and they run lots of discard. For a sideboard option (mind you, I don't know your meta very well...), you could subtract the 8 creature enhancements and run with 4 lightning bolt and some other mix of burn spells. Death's shadow tends to go low on life and a handful of burn to say "surprise, you die!" is one of the best red ways to answer them. This is why I don't think chameleon colossus is fast enough to answer them. Obstinate baloth or kitchen finks might be, though.
Incidentally, could you please post your most current decklist? I would like to see what it has evolved to!
About the Deck
G/r Deathtouch Ping is exactly what the name suggests. This mid-range deck tries to an early game pinging deathtoucher to interact with and clear the opponent's field out for a win. Ideal plays are T1 play Narnam Renegade or Wasteland Viper, T2 Enchant with Power of Fire or Fire Whip and also T1 Birds of Paradise, T2 Rhonas the Indomitable, T3 enchant or equip with ping ability.
Rhonas is a great, resilient early game pinger that can slow your opponent's game plan and give you time to build up a board state they can't deal with. Of course, these cards demand an opponent to interact with our cards (kill creatures/enchantments) or be locked out of the game early. Cards like Ripjaw Raptor, Shapers' Sanctuary and Viridian Longbow give us some resilience and staying power against decks that come packing a good suite of removal themselves. Finally, Scryb Ranger is an MVP that allows us to get multiple ping interactions off one pinger, to perform combat tricks (attack then untap for blockers) and to round out/accelerate mana when needed (tap forest play forest, tap again, untap Birds of Paradise, etc). Finally Rhonas and Ripjaw get in for beats, applying pressure that a ping deck sorely needs.
There are other deathtouch ping lists out there (like G/B Longbow for instance) but they are all lacking something IMHO, whether that is speed, consistency or resiliency or just the ability to apply enough pressure. This is my attempt at building a ping deck addresses some of those shortfalls.
A Personal Introduction
Hey everyone! This will be my first post on MTG Salvation in at least a couple years. I've been an MTG player since 2009 and up until recently, my friends and I have been primarily Legacy players. We were frequenters of the local Legacy tournament scene here in AZ but as card prices have risen, the pool of Legacy players has dwindled. A couple years ago the Legacy scene hit an all-time low and my buddies and I were showing up at the local game shops for Legacy tournaments that weren't firing off due to too few players. Legacy died out and I went on hiatus with it. My MTG days became relegated to the kitchen table gatherings my group continued to have once a month.
But then a few months ago one of my buddies told me he had built a few Modern tournament decks (Spirits and Arclight Phoenix) and was starting to go to tournaments again. He suggested I join him. And now here I am.
I've always been a player who runs off-the-wall stuff and prefers to brew his own builds for competitive play. My favorite deck I ever built was Angry Birds for Legacy which has a primer in the budget section of the Legacy forums here. I've also piloted Four Horsemen (before the slow play rule change), Spanish Inquisition in all its forms, Foodchain Elves and a G/W aggro/tempo deck called Dubstep I made for Legacy. That should give an idea to some of the obscure things I like to play.
That said, I still had little experience with Modern. My friend suggested I join him for a tournament and since I didn't want to put too much investment into the format initially, I looked through the already built decks I own for something that could be ported to Modern easily. Low and behold, I realized my G/R ping deathtouch deck I had built for casual play was already mostly modern legal. I wondered what would happen if I tried to tune the deck to be more competitive. The gears started turning for the first time in a while and I set off to work. In the end, I came up with this initial list:
3x Birds of Paradise
4x Deadly Recluse
3x Hornet Nest
3x Narnam Renegade
3x Rhonas the Indomitable
3x Skylasher
4x Wasteland Viper
4x Forest
4x Karplusan Forest
1x Mountain
4x Stomping Ground
4x Swarmyard
4x Windswept Heath
2x Sylvan Scrying
Enchantment (14)
4x Arcane Teachings
4x Fire Whip
3x Keen Sense
3x Power of Fire
I had the chance to do some rough playtesting on TappedOut against my friend's Arclight Phoenix list, Bant Spirits and Death's Shadow. My deck wasn't just rolling over and folding so I figured that was a good sign, although, I was still hesitant to go to a tournament, figuring I was going to get walked all over. My buddy and I figured control decks would probably be the toughest matchup for the list.
Anyways, I won't spend too much time breaking down the list above because it is not my current list today. Needless to say, I went to my first Modern tournament with that deck up there and a hodgepodge sideboard with some Choke, Trinisphere, Beast Within, gravehate and I don't remember what else.
I went into the tournament with my unrefined pile of 75, flying pretty blind on the Modern Meta and walked out having gone 2-2 in the rounds, winning 5 games and losing 3. Not fantastic but certainly better than I hoped for in my first Modern tournament! More importantly, I walked out with a lot of knowledge.
I played against Jeskai Control (Lost first game, won second, went to turns in the third and gave the win to him). Round two I was against some sort of U/R control deck with Kiki combo as the finisher. I lost both games to that deck although they were fairly close games (I got him to 3 life game one and 1 life game two). Game three was against my friend and his U/W spirits deck. I took that game 2-0 and then the final round was against a U/W wall aggro deck which I had a very strong two games against.
Against the control decks, I did not have the ability to put enough pressure on them to push through the permission to win. It was as my friend and I expected; my ping deck has a weaker matchup against grindy control decks that can outgrind me. So I went back to the drawing boards and in the past month or so have put together the following list.
The Decklist
4x Birds of Paradise
3x Deadly Recluse
4x Narnam Renegade
3x Rhonas the Indomitable
3x Ripjaw Raptor
3x Scryb Ranger
4x Wasteland Viper
Artifact (3)
3x Viridian Longbow
Land (21)
5x Forest
3x Karplusan Forest
1x Mountain
4x Stomping Ground
4x Swarmyard
4x Windswept Heath
1x Arcane Teachings
4x Fire Whip
3x Power of Fire
3x Shapers' Sanctuary
Sorcery (2)
2x Sylvan Scrying
3x Beast Within
3x Choke
3x Scavenging Ooze
1x Shapers' Sanctuary
2x Thrun, the Last Troll
2x Trinisphere
So far, the deck is running pretty smoothly. While I understand that this idea is likely never going to be Tier 1 or Tier 2 material, my goal really is to see how far I can take the idea to build the most competitive ping deathtouch deck possible. After doing some research online, I've come across a Modern G/B deathtouch deck running Viridian Longbow that has been featured in an article or two and some YouTube videos so I know the idea has some merit. Plus my playtesting suggests it is a deck that can steal some wins against other competitive decks.
I'll be revising and adding to this primary post later but for now I wanted to mention a few thoughts on the deck. If you can get a pinging deathtoucher up and running on the field, most decks that rely on creatures to win are going to struggle. One of the things I don't like about the G/B Longbow lists is that they are limited to the equipment and miss out on the opportunity to run the red enchantments that give ping. The inclusion of red allows us to up the number of ping effects in the deck for redundancy but they also do something far more important, IMHO. The bring speed.
With the number of efficient 1 mana deathtouch creatures these days, this seems significant. On turn one, you drop a deathtoucher then turn two cast either a Firewhip or Power of Fire for an active pinger on turn two. This kind of play forces the other player to have an answer in hand or otherwise be shut out earlier on in the game.
Granted, most decks do run a fair amount of removal which is where I have worked to add in some resiliency. Deadly Recluse has this cute interaction with Swarmyard that does a great job of blanking most red removal and some primary black removal such as Fatal Push. Rhonas the Indomitable is indestructible as well. Rhonas is an amazing card for this deck because he adds resilience and is a great target for a ping enchantment (he does not need to be active to ping). He also speeds up our clock by boosting our creatures' power once we have cleared the field. I was originally running Hornet Nest in the deck to pair with a ping enchantment but there were times where Hornet Nest was honestly a dead card in the hand or on the board (even with its nice synergy with Swarmyard). Then I discovered Ripjaw Raptor which is an intrinsically great card on its own (speeding up our clock, turning on Rhonas, refilling our hand) but also very synergistic with the ping enchantments also. Shapers' Sanctuary also helps to rebuild our hand and punish the opponent for interacting with our creatures. And if they aren't targeting our creatures, chances are they are losing anyways.
Scryb Ranger is an MVP. Its ability pairs nicely with our land drops and Birds of Paradise to ramp mana for us. It also allows us to ping multiple times with one creature (ping once, use Scryb's ability to return a forest, replay the forest, ping again, then pass turn and activate his ability on opponent's turn to ping a third time). This means you can machine gun the field or draw a cluster of cards off of Ripjaw Raptor. Scryb also as the benefit of blocking certain flying humans and spirits.
I'll be sure to work on organizing this post a little better in the coming days but wanted to at least get something out here to share. I'm looking for feedback and ideas on this. I know other deathtouch ping lists exist but I've always felt they could have been improved on. This is my take and I'd like to get some extra eyes on it to help refine the list.
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GFood Chain ElvesG
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BUThe Four Horsemen (RIP)UB
If your aim is to have some competitiveness, I think you might want to include some utility lands, namely cards like ghost quarter or field of ruin. They would give you a fair shot at decks like tron where you get a chance to disrupt them while setting up your engine. The only card you have with a double color requirement is ripjaw raptor and you're only playing 4 of him at most.
Second, are you only playing "Tims" to get your win or as a form of opponent creature control while your big beaters bring it home? If it is the former, I really think you want to be able to do it both turns (yours and theirs). Scryb ranger is going towards that already, of course. If it was casual enough, seedborne muse becomes my go to suggestion. Of course, a 2/4 for 5 doesn't really offer much on its own, so quest for the gemblades might be a better option. I would recommend neither as more than a 2 of, though.
Even though you're in red which allows for better removal, have you given any thought to the fight mechanic? Prey upon or pit fight seem like interesting inclusion possibilities.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
Suggesting to move those to the side, and then put 3 Faithless looting to give some filtering and dig power to the deck.
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As for this deck, I am under no illusions that this is going to suddenly become a tier deck. That said, new, competitive decks all have to start somewhere. A lot of ideas don't get there but when I have an idea, I am interested in taking it as far as I possibly can. Somewhat surprisingly (to even me!), I think there is some potential to pinging effects being competitive in this format; and I'd like to take that to its ideal, however far that goes. Outside of dropping the idea of pinging stuff (at which point this becomes another deck entirely), I am open to anything.
I definitely have given strong consideration to running Field of Ruin in this deck. It makes a lot of sense and shores up my matchups against stuff like Tron (which I have admittedly not played against at a tournament yet). I don't see Seedborne Muse or Quest for the Gemblades being strong enough. In a much older, strictly casual version of a ping deck I had in the past, I did run both of those cards at some point, though.
So to answer your question, I don't see this deck as being strictly ping and that is out of necessity. I need enough deathtouchers and ping activators for consistency and redundancy but I've also felt that it runs into the danger of not being able to apply the necessary pressure. This results in matches going to time and/or eventually losing to my opponent's lucky topdecking. I definitely think some combination of the deathtouch/ping soft-lock engine and then cards that apply pressure is the correct way to build this.
Even other lists I've seen such as the G/B Longbow deck seem slow; slow enough that they lose games due to lack of applied pressure on the opponent. The other challenge I see is getting to a point in the game where I myself am in top deck mode. Going into topdeck and whiffing on a bunch of land draws is rough.
I have definitely considered the fight mechanics. Things like Prey Upon are great but in this deck I have to ask myself "is this better than something that gives my creature ping to do the same thing but repeatedly?" Since this deck is built around mopping up creature strategies, I haven't necessarily felt the need for more spot-creature removal. That said, I did mess around with a green/black version of the deck in which I ran a playset of Ulvenwald Tracker.
Further down this post, I'll share a new test list I have been working with. There are a few changes I've made and one that I really like is the addition of a 1-of Arena. At first I didn't like it, but a fetchable, uncounterable, difficult to remove "ping" card really gives this deck a way to work around some problems while also increasing consistency. Plus Arena works on tapped creatures as well. Consider this. You have Rhonas enchanted with Power of Fire. The opponent has two creatures out and you don't have a Scryb Rangers in play for double activations. With Arena in play, you can ping one creature with Rhonas, then activate Arena to have Rhonas fight the other creature, clearing out both creatures on the field. Being able to kill more than one creature off one active pinger is amazing for this deck against other decks that have the ability to go wide and play around one ping activation a turn. I have found that few decks can deal with two creature kills per turn.
The Fluff, thanks for the great suggestion. I also found Shapers' Sanctuary to be ultimately lacking in the main as I playtested it more. It may find some slots in the SB but I'm not sure yet. I can't believe I haven't tried Faithless Looting in that slot yet. It's one of the best cards in red and if I can find a way to fit it in, I think it would help the deck filter greatly. Since pulling Shapers' Sanctuary, I tried testing Keen Sense again which is what originally filled that slot but feel it can be a bit "win more". If I can land a Keen Sense and start drawing cards off of it, I'm probably winning the game anyways.
I actually swapped out the Ripjaw Raptor to try Hornet Nest again and also Chameleon Colossus. I have Chameleon in the slot currently and like it. The Colossus closes out games quickly and plays nice with Swarmyard. Plus protection from Black is nice against Fatal Push and a host of other Modern cards like Death's Shadow. For the slot of Shapers' Sanctuary, I tried running Smuggler's Copter (snakes on a plane!!! Lol) and liked that it helped filter cards while also getting in for damage and making lone one-drop deathtouchers or an inactive Rhonas more useful. Then I considered actually just running Ripjaw Raptor in place of Shaper's Sanctuary and having both Chameleon Colossus and Ripjaw in the list. Running more activators for Rhonas means he can also attack more often. It's a way to go up on beaters without hurting the consistency of the ping engine. I've also tried Thrun, the Last Troll in this spot for a little more resilience. Plus, I like Thrun with cards like Arena.
Here's the most recent list I've been playing around with, subject to change:
4x Birds of Paradise
3x Chameleon Colossus
4x Deadly Recluse
4x Narnam Renegade
3x Rhonas the Indomitable
4x Scryb Ranger
2x Ripjaw Raptor
3x Wasteland Viper
4x Viridian Longbow
Land (21)
1x Arena
5x Forest
3x Karplusan Forest
1x Mountain
4x Stomping Ground
3x Swarmyard
4x Windswept Heath
Enchantment (7)
4x Fire Whip
3x Power of Fire
I have been playtesting the deck a lot on TappedOut against as many major archetypes as I can. I am starting to record my results so I can more systematically determine the deck's weak matchups and evaluate why those are tough matchups and whether there are ways of finetuning the main deck to improve win percentages. Once I have enough data, I'll post it on here for reference. Once the maindeck is feeling about as solid as I can make it, I'll spend some more time working on the SB.
Thanks to you both for your great feedback on this! I am interested to hear any more thoughts or opinions you have, especially on this most recent list.
PS: I posted the list in Budget because it is under $400 to build and I felt that it was more budget in costs but I am wondering if 'Developing' would have been a more suitable forum for this.
PPS: I like the way the deck plays now but I have considered whether I am running the right ratio of ping activators. Currently, the deck is running 11x plus Arena. I have considered testing a list that goes down to 8x (Longbow and Firewhip) and uses the free slots to up the creature threat density and/or card filtering
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GFood Chain ElvesG
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BUThe Four Horsemen (RIP)UB
I don't really have much to suggest except. Maybe have one more colossus in the sideboard. Should be good against the Grixis Shadow decks, if ever you encounter them. Because the colossus laughs at Gurmag Angler, Death Shadow, and Tasigur. One of the few ways they could kill a resolved colossus is to surprise block it with snapcaster + bolt.
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I think running an extra Colossus in the side is a great idea. I did play against Death's Shadow in a local tournament. The games were really close but I ended up going 1-2 against him. This was pre-Colossus for my list though so I hope my matchup against the deck will be better now.
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Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
You're welcome. Well, you have the advantage of being a rogue deck.. so at first people won't be sure what to do. Having many auras opens you up being 2 for one'd by removal heavy decks.. though I think swarmyard and rhonas help the deck become more resilient to that problem.
Are the birds of paraidse being useful?
____________
Nice to see you Weltkrieg. Saw you years ago at the legacy forums helping people at the budget section.
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I appreciate all the input; it is super helpful.
Weltkrieg, that is a really interesting suggestion. I definitely see the potential synergy and power of Combat Celebrant in this deck. I'm going to give that a try and see how that goes.
Fluff, I am testing out a list that drops the Power of Fire for Faithless Looting. Going down to 4x Fire Whip and 4x Veridian Longbow doesn't seem too bad. Veridian helps out some with not getting two for one'd. I do like Birds. The 1 drop mana dork allows me to drop a t2 Rhonas and equip/enchant Veridian or Firewhip on t3. Against certain decks I do feel that it is crucial to get a pinger online on either t2 or t3.
PS: I have been kicking around the idea of Blood Moon or Magus of the Moon for this deck. I've been running Chokes in the side but I think Blood Moon is better against more of the field and the manabase should support it just fine. Although, Swarmyard and Arena are anti-synergistic, bringing in Blood Moons against the right deck seems like it could be devastating.
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GFood Chain ElvesG
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BUThe Four Horsemen (RIP)UB
In my opinion, 8 "ping" spells are enough. Faithless Looting is a busted modern card right now... it will help give your deck some velocity. Topdeck a bad card? Not a problem, flashback looting to replace that bad topdeck with something better.
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If anyone is curious to try playtesting the deck, I have it listed on TappedOut, here: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/sneaky-snake-v3-copy-3/
I also briefly messed around with a G/B list as well which I figured I'd share here for fun. I've put a lot less work into this list, FYI.
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Deadly Recluse
2x Desecration Demon
3x Narnam Renegade
3x Rhonas the Indomitable
3x Ripjaw Raptor
3x Scryb Ranger
4x Typhoid Rats
3x Ulvenwald Tracker
3x Blooming Marsh
4x Forest
4x Overgrown Tomb
2x Swamp
3x Swarmyard
4x Windswept Heath
2x Sylvan Scrying
4x Thoughtseize
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As for the gb list, I would suggest replacing the two desecration demon with bloodgift demon for some card advantage.
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PS: The new Vraska, Swarm's Eminence plainswalker spoiled in War of the Spark looks like a potential consideration for this deck. The wording 'deals damage' vs 'deals combat damage' is especially relevant for this deck.
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I tested your list at the beginning but I'm not very sold on it (because I tested it against some pet decks I have and it doesn't win consistently), but since the printing of the new vraska I thought that she would be bonkers in this deck and well She has been already suggested
Also I think there are lot of good creatures with deathtouch for your GB list like Gifted aetherborn and vampire nighthawk that will also help you to close the game while survive a lot.
Finally I was thinking if with the new vraska a mono black list would be possible (perhaps including red splash for whip), but I've always wanted to build a succesfuld assassins deck (that by the way usually have deathtouch) and that can exploit tribal assassins shenanigans (Scarblade Elite I'm looking at you
Thanks Pcrusader for jumping into the conversation! I'd be curious to hear what decks you tested my list against (especially the ones it was losing to). I will say there are some decks that this does not fair well against (Bogles seems like an auto-lose for Ping). Other decks like Grixis Death's Shadow, Humans, Spirits and even Phoenix seem possible to win against. Jeskai Control can be winnable with proper sideboarding, I think.
I have not playtested against much combo, nor run into any combo decks at my local stores so I'm not too share how we fare there. My guess is not great but the SB may help.
I have had a chance to test out Combat Celebrant at Weltkrieg's suggestion. It seems quite strong in this deck. The synergy is great and it closes games out very quickly when it gets a chance to swing in.
Black does bring with it a lot of nice options for deathtouch creatures but I was not sold on a G/B list. You have more deathtouch creatures to choose from but you lose the consistency and speed that Red brings in getting your pingers online.
I also have a hard time walking away from green because of Scryb Ranger which seems absolutely clutch in this deck. Scryb let's you sweep the field (killing two creatures on your turn and another when you pass the turn to your opponent) among other things.
That said if I was going to explore another color, I'd probably look at B/R and see how that runs. Vampire Nighthawk and Gifted Aetherborn are very strong.
A mono-black list would be interesting as well. If you build it, you should definitely share Pcrusader! I am interested in this thread being about building the best deathtouch/ping deck possible and very open to different lists being shared because that brings innovation.
The more I think about Vraska, the less I am sure about her. She is really only good if we have a pinger online already and her main ability to give our creatures +1/+1 counters relies on us using our pingers to directly ping our opponent (or attack). My thought here is that we mostly want to be pinging their creatures, not the player themselves. And then when it comes to getting in for more damage, the process of building up those +1/+1 counters to get more damage in just seems too slow compared to other options (Combat Celebrant?).
Given those thoughts, the ability to generate a 1/1 deathtoucher for 4 mana just seems bad. I could be wrong of course and do plan on testing her either way. Maybe she will play out better in games than it appears she will on paper.
PS: What do you guys think about God-Eternal Rhonas? That card seems very intriguing! It's a little expensive at 5 mana but seems like it might be worth a test as maybe a one-of.
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Fluff, I have considered Thornbite Staff. I do think the untap ability is fantastic but my concern with the card is how costly it is (to cast, equip, activate). It puts a pretty heavy strain on resources. I think Scryb Ranger helps to give a similar ability with untaps without being quite as costly. My concern is getting the Thornbite online is going to be slow.
On a side note, I took G/R Ping to a local tournament this past Friday and went 2-2. The matches were as follows:
2-1 against Izzet Phoenix
2-0 against Humans
0-2 against U/W Control (although game two was very close)
0-2 against Death's Shadow (game 1 was quad Thoughtsiezed, game 2 he sided 10 creature removal cards against me)
The Death's Shadow match was really rough but the U/W Control deck seemed winnable, especially if I just do a little more tailoring of my SB. Plus I was short a couple cards from my list online, most notably the fourth Scryb Rangers.
Combat Celebrant was a house!
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About the shadow deck. Were you able to cast any colossus against it?
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I don't think god eternal rhonas is particularly good here. Most of your other threats aren't particularly big by their own and something like this won't do much to add to that.
U/W control seems difficult. I think rhythm of the wild might be a valid solution here. Option of haste and giving a finger to the almighty counterspell seems pretty good. If you have a flex slot available, 2 main and maybe a 3rd (or 2 more) sideboard might be an option. Most decks that will give you trouble will be running cards like remand, mana leak, logic knot, or cryptic command to slow you down and this answers those proactively. Unfortunately, most of your deck isn't particularly beefy so hard core control will probably still be problematic.
You say the death's shadow match sided in 10 creature removal cards? Which were they? If we know more, we can theorycraft better ways to answer them. However, one suggestion that comes to mind is a burn package. You run what, 8 creature enhancement effects that aren't great here? I mean, yes you should have an advantage if you can get them down and kill the creatures, but that takes a lot of time and mana and they run lots of discard. For a sideboard option (mind you, I don't know your meta very well...), you could subtract the 8 creature enhancements and run with 4 lightning bolt and some other mix of burn spells. Death's shadow tends to go low on life and a handful of burn to say "surprise, you die!" is one of the best red ways to answer them. This is why I don't think chameleon colossus is fast enough to answer them. Obstinate baloth or kitchen finks might be, though.
Incidentally, could you please post your most current decklist? I would like to see what it has evolved to!
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!