In modern decks under $500 are considered budget. Without a play set of snap casters and a jace mind sculpture or two. I think your safe in the budget section
This would put Gifts Storm firmly in the budget section LOL
I would think Budget shouldn't be breaking the $100 mark, like Saffron Olive's lists typically hover around 80-99.
@OP
I tried to make this deck work, but the lack of Shoals made it hard. All the same, the deck can put up a fight as a pseudo aggro control deck. Some cards I haven't seen mentioned:
Commit // Memory Universal Instant speed removal without the card disadvantage of bounce, kind of complements Repeal in matches where you expect high CMC targets. Can also serve as a counterspell. Pairs well with Thought Scour if you're not confident you can counter the spell 2 turns later.
Imprisoned in the Moon As close to actual hard removal in mono U as you can get. Doesn't flip delver, but the utility is undeniable.
Perilous Voyage does excellent work in the early game and is a serviceable bounce spell late. Bounce that Bob, set up the flip for your delver if it hasn't flipped.
edit: Where are your Thought Scours?! You play flip Jace and Cryptic Serpent and no Thought Scours?? I'm not even going to sell you this card, just think about what your deck is trying to do.
In modern decks under $500 are considered budget. Without a play set of snap casters and a jace mind sculpture or two. I think your safe in the budget section
This would put Gifts Storm firmly in the budget section LOL
I would think Budget shouldn't be breaking the $100 mark, like Saffron Olive's lists typically hover around 80-99.
@OP
I tried to make this deck work, but the lack of Shoals made it hard. All the same, the deck can put up a fight as a pseudo aggro control deck. Some cards I haven't seen mentioned:
Commit // Memory Universal Instant speed removal without the card disadvantage of bounce, kind of complements Repeal in matches where you expect high CMC targets. Can also serve as a counterspell. Pairs well with Thought Scour if you're not confident you can counter the spell 2 turns later.
Imprisoned in the Moon As close to actual hard removal in mono U as you can get. Doesn't flip delver, but the utility is undeniable.
Perilous Voyage does excellent work in the early game and is a serviceable bounce spell late. Bounce that Bob, set up the flip for your delver if it hasn't flipped.
edit: Where are your Thought Scours?! You play flip Jace and Cryptic Serpent and no Thought Scours?? I'm not even going to sell you this card, just think about what your deck is trying to do.
I’ve been testing thought scour in place of opt, but I’m not a fan of self mill. I understand it sets up Snapcaster, Jace, and serpent, but 80% of the time I mill the mentioned cards. I shuffle, power shuffle, and everything, but when I play them I end up milling them.
The other reason I run opt over scour is scour says draw and opt says scry then draw.
When I get Snapcaster 3 and 4 I’ll get scour, but with 2 I’m not a fan after testing. Thx for the advice, I’ll look into the other mentioned cards
In modern decks under $500 are considered budget. Without a play set of snap casters and a jace mind sculpture or two. I think your safe in the budget section
This would put Gifts Storm firmly in the budget section LOL
I would think Budget shouldn't be breaking the $100 mark, like Saffron Olive's lists typically hover around 80-99.
@OP
I tried to make this deck work, but the lack of Shoals made it hard. All the same, the deck can put up a fight as a pseudo aggro control deck. Some cards I haven't seen mentioned:
Commit // Memory Universal Instant speed removal without the card disadvantage of bounce, kind of complements Repeal in matches where you expect high CMC targets. Can also serve as a counterspell. Pairs well with Thought Scour if you're not confident you can counter the spell 2 turns later.
Imprisoned in the Moon As close to actual hard removal in mono U as you can get. Doesn't flip delver, but the utility is undeniable.
Perilous Voyage does excellent work in the early game and is a serviceable bounce spell late. Bounce that Bob, set up the flip for your delver if it hasn't flipped.
edit: Where are your Thought Scours?! You play flip Jace and Cryptic Serpent and no Thought Scours?? I'm not even going to sell you this card, just think about what your deck is trying to do.
I’ve been testing thought scour in place of opt, but I’m not a fan of self mill. I understand it sets up Snapcaster, Jace, and serpent, but 80% of the time I mill the mentioned cards. I shuffle, power shuffle, and everything, but when I play them I end up milling them.
The other reason I run opt over scour is scour says draw and opt says scry then draw.
When I get Snapcaster 3 and 4 I’ll get scour, but with 2 I’m not a fan after testing. Thx for the advice, I’ll look into the other mentioned cards
Don't diss a good card because of variance. Proven decks like delver run 4 copies for good reason. They synergize with the rest of the deck. In their case its snaps, tasigur and angler. You've got 3 incentives as well.
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I’m looking at budget, and it looks like I can get 1 more snap next week. I read the posts about having more snap = scour over opt. Will 3 snap be worth a playset of scour or do I need to have 4 snap b4 getting 4 scour. If not I can get a Vendilion or 2, or 1 Vendilion and maybe one shoal
Edit: if I get Vendilion, it will replace 1 Peek, and what do I remove for 1 shoal?
I got a sweet deal on some shock lands yesterday. I got 4 hallowed fountain and 1 Watery grave, and was wondering if I were to take this out of the budget section and try esper delver, would it be any good since I’ve been berated that to be competitive, I have to go grixis.
I got a sweet deal on some shock lands yesterday. I got 4 hallowed fountain and 1 Watery grave, and was wondering if I were to take this out of the budget section and try esper delver, would it be any good since I’ve been berated that to be competitive, I have to go grixis.
By competitive they mean meta. Everyone has their local meta. Grixis Delver isn't exactly topping the charts nowadays anyway, so what are they on about? Esper Delver has access to lingering souls, which can do work against Humans, Affinity and Death's Shadow (unless they have TBR).
U don't have to move this thread, you need to start a new one unless there already is an Esper Delver.
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I think Fatal Push, Collective Brutality and Queller gives this shard a fair shot at being competitive. Lingering Souls alone couldn't do it. But all this goodstuff might just do the trick.
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To go Esper you'd also need to play fetches to have reliable mana and those are probably the most expensive cards in that deck besides Snapcaster Mage.
Other cards I'd prioritize getting for the deck would be Collective Brutality and a Vendilion Clique (or Spell Queller).
For esper I have 1 watery grave, 4 hallowed fountain, 1 glacial fortress, 1 drowned catacomb. Till I have an extra $500 I’ll stick to mono blue.
There is a slight uodate to mono blue. I have a 3rd snap and 1 Vendilion. Do I remove chart a course or 1 serum for 3rd snap? Now I have 3 snap, I’ll replace opt with scour.
Decided to side Dismember since it wasn’t that useful in my meta. Since getting Snapcaster, I’m having a much easier time countering them. I’m considering getting shoal, 4th snap, and mindsculptor. What do I remove? I was thinking -2 Jace, -1 chart for the 3.
I think Pteramander is a great card. It probably won't reliably Adapt until T3-T4, but that still is a decent clock at the right time when you want to kill your opponent.
I've actually been really interested in Tempest Djinn and Curious Obsession from the current Standard legal Mono-Blue Tempo deck. I wanted to know if those particular cards would be relevant in a budget Tempo list. Adding Delver seems like a great plan to the deck and the deck as a whole can be built relatively cheaply.
I really like Tempest Djinn because it's a big creature similar to some of the Delve creatures you see in more traditional Delver decks without relying on the 'yard. The 3 CMC is hella annoying, sure, but its evasion is very powerful. It can also size up pretty well as a blocker, especially in conjunction with Siren Stormtamer and Dive Down.
The problem with tempest is it a three mana creture in modern and it's only ok. If you play it you need to be able to defend it. So if you run djinn I'd run disruption shoal as well. Also curious obsession is not good in the deck as there just isn't many cretures and it doesn't work with delver or pteramander.
Also this is modern you need remval. There are going to be hollow ones, vengevines and phoenixs out and dealing damadge turn 2 and if you don't run remval you'll play djinn turn 3 and loose before you get to your 4th turn.
I've also been playing around with hiroglific illumination as a cantrip as its card advantage late game and can be pitched to shoal to counter 4cmcs (Coco, board wipes and jaces ect)
First thing first, Disrupting Shoal is too important in Mono Blue, cause you'll end up fighting creatures on the stack against several annoyances (Goblin Guide, Boogles, Death's Shadow...) which you couldn't otherwise remove *fast or conveniently*. AND it doesn't save your pieces when the opponent EOT removal on creature. Shoal is just better, here.
You play 18 lands (15 Blue) with only 4 Opt as cantrip of choice and 7 (SEVEN) triple mana spells. Wish you luck. Curious Obsession HAS to be Serum Visions (also due to Delver of Secrets). We can keep it as a one-of to recover from card-disadvantage, but certainly not in spite of cantrips.
Playing Archmage's Charm instead of Cryptic Command could be an idea. It still counter when we need to counter stuff, it costs one less (even though three blue is more or less the same, cause you will draw into your uncracked Field of Ruin more than you think) and it occasionally steals creatures.
assuming force of negation and archmage's charm drop in price to around the $5-10 mark then i think this will be the a close to optimal build for a budget list
i like the fact you can cast force of negation for its mana cost in the later game without having to stick a lot of mana into it like shoal.
sandbar is a auto include i think. and 2 seems to be the correct number
charm is extremely solid (not as good as cryptic but already cheaper by about $17)
unfortunately we didn't get any new creatures. merfolk trickster or Spellstutter Sprite is about as close as we have for a 2 drop and is probably worth running in the clique spot for budget builds. (the big downside to tempest is its lack of flash, it's only ok as a card and is pretty vulnerable in the meta, it passes the bolt test but not the push test (like serpent) and it's not consistently big (like delver and ptermander) it's not the worst option but it's also not the best.
out of all the more expensive cards (fetches, cryptic, snapcaster, JMS ect.) vendilion clique seems like the best non-budget buy, for price - maximum effect on the deck.
thing in the ice may well be the second strongest, for decks without cryptics commands its adds a way to deal with on board threats. and 4 things are again cheaper than 2 cryptics.
This would put Gifts Storm firmly in the budget section LOL
I would think Budget shouldn't be breaking the $100 mark, like Saffron Olive's lists typically hover around 80-99.
@OP
I tried to make this deck work, but the lack of Shoals made it hard. All the same, the deck can put up a fight as a pseudo aggro control deck. Some cards I haven't seen mentioned:
Commit // Memory Universal Instant speed removal without the card disadvantage of bounce, kind of complements Repeal in matches where you expect high CMC targets. Can also serve as a counterspell. Pairs well with Thought Scour if you're not confident you can counter the spell 2 turns later.
Imprisoned in the Moon As close to actual hard removal in mono U as you can get. Doesn't flip delver, but the utility is undeniable.
Perilous Voyage does excellent work in the early game and is a serviceable bounce spell late. Bounce that Bob, set up the flip for your delver if it hasn't flipped.
edit: Where are your Thought Scours?! You play flip Jace and Cryptic Serpent and no Thought Scours?? I'm not even going to sell you this card, just think about what your deck is trying to do.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
I’ve been testing thought scour in place of opt, but I’m not a fan of self mill. I understand it sets up Snapcaster, Jace, and serpent, but 80% of the time I mill the mentioned cards. I shuffle, power shuffle, and everything, but when I play them I end up milling them.
The other reason I run opt over scour is scour says draw and opt says scry then draw.
When I get Snapcaster 3 and 4 I’ll get scour, but with 2 I’m not a fan after testing. Thx for the advice, I’ll look into the other mentioned cards
Don't diss a good card because of variance. Proven decks like delver run 4 copies for good reason. They synergize with the rest of the deck. In their case its snaps, tasigur and angler. You've got 3 incentives as well.
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Edit: if I get Vendilion, it will replace 1 Peek, and what do I remove for 1 shoal?
By competitive they mean meta. Everyone has their local meta. Grixis Delver isn't exactly topping the charts nowadays anyway, so what are they on about? Esper Delver has access to lingering souls, which can do work against Humans, Affinity and Death's Shadow (unless they have TBR).
U don't have to move this thread, you need to start a new one unless there already is an Esper Delver.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
I think Fatal Push, Collective Brutality and Queller gives this shard a fair shot at being competitive. Lingering Souls alone couldn't do it. But all this goodstuff might just do the trick.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
Other cards I'd prioritize getting for the deck would be Collective Brutality and a Vendilion Clique (or Spell Queller).
The main threats in Esper (besides Snapcaster) are usually: 4x Delver, 3-4x Tasigur + Angler, 3-4x L.Souls and 1-2x Clique/Queller/Geist.
There is a slight uodate to mono blue. I have a 3rd snap and 1 Vendilion. Do I remove chart a course or 1 serum for 3rd snap? Now I have 3 snap, I’ll replace opt with scour.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Thing in the Ice
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Cryptic Serpent
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1 Vendilion Clique
(20)
4 Thought Scour
4 Remand
3 Psionic Blast
3 Vapor Snag
2 Mana Leak
2 Cryptic Command
1 Logic Knot
1 Peek
3 Serum Visions
2 Chart a Course
(19)
19 Island
(15)
3 Spell Pierce
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Spell Snare
2 Spreading Seas
2 Dispel
2 Dismember
1 Talent of the Telepath
1 Jace’s Defeat
Decided to side Dismember since it wasn’t that useful in my meta. Since getting Snapcaster, I’m having a much easier time countering them. I’m considering getting shoal, 4th snap, and mindsculptor. What do I remove? I was thinking -2 Jace, -1 chart for the 3.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Thing in the Ice
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Cryptic Serpent
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Thought Scour
4 Remand
3 Psionic Blast
3 Vapor Snag
2 Mana Leak
2 Cryptic Command
2 Dismember
1 Logic Knot
1 Peek
3 Serum Visions
1 Chart a Course
(19)
19 Island
My on-a-whim list:
4 Pteramander
2 Cryptic Serpent
4 Serum Visions
4 Thought Scour
4 Opt
3 Chart a Course
3 Spell Snag
3 Disrupting Shoal
4 Vapor Snag
3 Dismember
Legacy: Strawberry Shortcake, Aggro Loam, DnT+b
Modern: Devoted Karn
Vintage: Survival
Also, why no Mana Leak (or Rune Snag) ?
I'd surely run it over Disrupting Shoal which is a very hit and miss card (more on the miss side imho).
Remand is a key card for this deck as well snd I'd rather spend money on it before buying either Dismember or Chart.
I think Pteramander is a great card. It probably won't reliably Adapt until T3-T4, but that still is a decent clock at the right time when you want to kill your opponent.
I've actually been really interested in Tempest Djinn and Curious Obsession from the current Standard legal Mono-Blue Tempo deck. I wanted to know if those particular cards would be relevant in a budget Tempo list. Adding Delver seems like a great plan to the deck and the deck as a whole can be built relatively cheaply.
I really like Tempest Djinn because it's a big creature similar to some of the Delve creatures you see in more traditional Delver decks without relying on the 'yard. The 3 CMC is hella annoying, sure, but its evasion is very powerful. It can also size up pretty well as a blocker, especially in conjunction with Siren Stormtamer and Dive Down.
So, my thought for a decklist is pretty simple:
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Pteramander
4x Siren Stormtamer
4x Tempest Djinn
4x Curious Obsession
Instants/Sorceries (21)
4x Thought Scour
3x Serum Visions
3x Dive Down
4x Remand
4x Mana Leak
3x Chart a Course
19x Island
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Also this is modern you need remval. There are going to be hollow ones, vengevines and phoenixs out and dealing damadge turn 2 and if you don't run remval you'll play djinn turn 3 and loose before you get to your 4th turn.
This is my current brew I've been testing
1x Dismember
3x Disrupting Shoal
1x Logic Knot
2x Mission Briefing
2x Opt
2x Psionic Blast
4x Remand
4x Rune Snag
4x Thought Scour
3x Vapor Snag
3x Cryptic Serpent
4x Delver of Secrets Flip
4x Pteramander
2x Vendilion Clique
Land (18)
1x Faerie Conclave
2x Field of Ruin
13x Island
2x Underground River
4x Serum Visions
I've also been playing around with hiroglific illumination as a cantrip as its card advantage late game and can be pitched to shoal to counter 4cmcs (Coco, board wipes and jaces ect)
Competitive Decks
Devotion to the Lash B ----
Monkey Conservation WUGR ---- Dragon WorshipR
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Pteramander
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Tempest Djinn
Instants (23)
4x Vapor Snag
4x Opt
4x Remand
4x Archmage's Charm
4x Force of Negation
3x Psionic Blast
4x Curious Obsession
Lands (18)
3x Field of Ruin
15x Island
4x Spell Pierce
3x Blink of an Eye
4x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Vedalken Shackles
2x Flashfreeze
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
First thing first, Disrupting Shoal is too important in Mono Blue, cause you'll end up fighting creatures on the stack against several annoyances (Goblin Guide, Boogles, Death's Shadow...) which you couldn't otherwise remove *fast or conveniently*. AND it doesn't save your pieces when the opponent EOT removal on creature. Shoal is just better, here.
You play 18 lands (15 Blue) with only 4 Opt as cantrip of choice and 7 (SEVEN) triple mana spells. Wish you luck. Curious Obsession HAS to be Serum Visions (also due to Delver of Secrets). We can keep it as a one-of to recover from card-disadvantage, but certainly not in spite of cantrips.
Playing Archmage's Charm instead of Cryptic Command could be an idea. It still counter when we need to counter stuff, it costs one less (even though three blue is more or less the same, cause you will draw into your uncracked Field of Ruin more than you think) and it occasionally steals creatures.
I would do:
+4 Thought Scour (Pteramander becomes useless, otherwise)
+4 Disrupting Shoal
+3 Serum Visions
-4 Force of Negation
-3 Psionic Blast
-4 Curious Obsession
3x Archmage's Charm
1x Dismember
3x Disrupting Shoal
2x Force of Negation
1x Mission Briefing
2x Psionic Blast
4x Remand
2x Spell Pierce
4x Thought Scour
3x Vapor Snag
3x Cryptic Serpent
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Pteramander
2x Vendilion Clique
Land (18)
2x Field of Ruin
14x Island
2x Lonely Sandbar
4x Serum Visions
i like the fact you can cast force of negation for its mana cost in the later game without having to stick a lot of mana into it like shoal.
sandbar is a auto include i think. and 2 seems to be the correct number
charm is extremely solid (not as good as cryptic but already cheaper by about $17)
unfortunately we didn't get any new creatures. merfolk trickster or Spellstutter Sprite is about as close as we have for a 2 drop and is probably worth running in the clique spot for budget builds. (the big downside to tempest is its lack of flash, it's only ok as a card and is pretty vulnerable in the meta, it passes the bolt test but not the push test (like serpent) and it's not consistently big (like delver and ptermander) it's not the worst option but it's also not the best.
out of all the more expensive cards (fetches, cryptic, snapcaster, JMS ect.) vendilion clique seems like the best non-budget buy, for price - maximum effect on the deck.
thing in the ice may well be the second strongest, for decks without cryptics commands its adds a way to deal with on board threats. and 4 things are again cheaper than 2 cryptics.
Competitive Decks
Devotion to the Lash B ----
Monkey Conservation WUGR ---- Dragon WorshipR