Think i'll switch 1 Extraction for a Shriekmaw because it's a super-great Removal / Blocker against Eldrazi.
Bitterblossom is like a Turn 2- Do nothing.
I wouldn't recommend it, since every deck and his mom trys to blow you out T2 / 3.
Games ending? I don't keep track.
Like 6 (super fast) to Turn 15 (UWr, Jund).
Funny fact, i've never lost a match against UWr right now - they just can't keep up with Lingering Souls.
I've tested this deck, stumbled wiht it and now i'm right-alined wiht it.
This is ALL 'bout Budget and why to play or not-to-play this deck.
Went another 2-1 today (just for being ill-minded on calling Pithing Needle wrong).
So, this post is about what is right and wrong with budget-brewing with tish deck.
At first, the most important, missing piece between Budget and non-Budget is...Auriok Champion.
Not Bitterblossom, not 'Seize, not...anything else, but champion.
Like i posted weeks ago, modern is about super-fast linear decks (Robots, Infection, Deth's Shadow,...Bushwhacker Zoo) and the more grindier decks - UWr and Jund. Boths grindier decks try to elongate the game artificaly. Answer threats, control the midgame, place a threat thereselfs. The super-fast, busted linear decks tries to shorten teh match till turn 2 (maybe 3), but at all seriousness - they try to kill at the fastest pace.
Where does BW Tokens (On-a-Budget) fits in?
So, we’re in the middle of nowhere. We got the right tools to out-grind decks, as we tend to control the busted „Turn 2 go-heavy-or-go-home“-decks.
What’s to optimize?
Pendling between Aggro and Control is no-good fit for this deck. Tidehollow Sculler is like super-random. It doesn’t excel in any discipline, but doesn’t shine in any other. Path, Persecution and IoK are super-good tools right now. There’s no Tron, no Combo to beat – they’re literally dead right now. This is our time to shine. Just streamlining is difficult.
Roads to head on
A) Being more Aggro’ish
Forget ‚bout it. Trying Brimaz, King of Oreskos? Yeah, got’cha wiht Blighted Agent on the play. Seriously, we cannot race Aggro(-Combo). So we shouldn’t try.
Heading down teh Road
Tools are here to be used to. So why not? We’re missing Dark Confidant, Liliana of the Veil and others. But do we need those?
Liliana shines in Combo-/Control-MU’s, Bob into grindier things too. So what’s our next step in our Masterplan?
Up to you! Here are some impressions:
Monastery Mentor
Needs alot of Discard and Removal, shines in teh Mid- to Lategame. Even a Thoughtseize does become a Token.
Pack Rat
THIS is really grindy. Took us like a lot of Lands and super-solid answers.
I'm glad you guys are enjoying success. Unfortunately, I had to sell my Sorins, Shambling Vents, Bitterblossoms and Champions to pay for cards for a new deck because after a year of work I have seen little to no success anywhere. While I have moved on in paper, I'm still going to play this deck in MTGO.
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"Don't believe everything you read on the internet." - Abraham Lincoln
Had a rough night last night, first week since I started playing where i didn't win a single match. Discounting bad draws, I notice more and more that the one major issue appears to be that we can potentially sideboard for a ton of different match-ups, but our main board is so tight that there aren't many cards we can replace for our sideboard. Another big issue I notice is we have a huge selection of potential card that can hate on the same specific thing, but are good or bad depending on the opponents deck. For example, I played my friend last night on my last round, and he's been on Merfolk for a year. Æther Vial is a royal pain to deal with for us, and I haven't snagged a pair of Disenchant, and I lack other important potential counters like Surgical Extraction or Pithing Needle. So while my three copies of Kataki, War's Wage is solid against Afinity, it's a really weak answer to vial and how it can cheat out creatures. Conversely, I'd never want Disenchant against Affinity, because four copies of "destroy this artifact" isn't enough to keep up with the amount the deck puts on the table. Sometimes I end up stuck is super odd scenarios where I drop all my planeswalkers just to add in extra removal.
Elspeth, Sun's Champion certainly was drawn and saw play, almost winning me a first round against a control deck (colors were UWR). If it wasn't for the fact that Elspeth was the only target for all his burn 4 turns in a row, I could've won for certain. Timely Reinforcements also got play, though not to maximum value despite having round 1 Elves and round 4 Merfolk games.
The deck is playable when I don't brick, even competitive - some rounds it's so strong it seems like I'm playing a control shell without any counterspells. But the variance in sideboarding necessity can really make how each week goes for me differ; some weeks it's a bunch of good close games, maybe even a win, other weeks I might as well be playing an intro deck because I perform so badly.
Right now I need a few things. First, I need another Thoughtseize to round out my hand disruption and finally remove that last placeholder Duress. Next, I want to secure a play set of Gather the Townsfolk to begin experimenting with that. Then I think I might just sit and wait for Concealed Courtyard. There's at least 2 Auriok Champion copies at my LGS, but I'm not blowing $70 on two cards right now. The only other major upgrade is Godless Shrine, that plus fastlands means goodbye Caves of Koilos and Isolated Chapel.
I'm considering if mainboarding two Ghost Quarter is worth it in my meta. I've seen a ton of decks it'd help with: Tron, Merfolk, anything with animate lands like Infect or some control shells, and so on. Vault of the Archangel is typically almost never drawn, and I rarely find it to be a worthy mana sink - Sorin, Solemn Visitor is drawn rather reliably at three copies, and I'd rather spend the mana animate Shambling Vent.
I'm still really searching for that stable ground for the deck yet.
Tokens relies heavily on you knowing the correct hand to keep for the match. There is an ideal keep and clear mulligan rules. Likewise, you have to know when to mulligan and then how to play tightly in the matchup you see.
Given these, Jund and Abzan are heavily, and I mean heavily, favored. You are basically an auto win game 1 and if you lose the next two, then it has to do with incorrect side boarding (that is, you keep your hand disruption when you just want more gas).
The question, post board, is what do you want the deck to do and what will give you the biggest boost to win percentages?
Before this, though, you have to ask: what will I play against? And what is worth spending my 75 cards on?
The latter question is addressed in other threads and locations. Tons of card choices are available. You just need to pick some and consider what is good in which matches. You reference Vial, but you have to understand that those matches will not be addressed by hitting their hand or the artifact. You have to hit the board. Wrath effects become much better here and we have a large number to choose from. They are hurt much more by wrath effects than we are, in general. Merfolk is so bad as to be not worth the sideboard unless you see it as a large portion of the meta. The same with tron. In those cases, it is worth boarding playsets of key cards (disenchant is not one, neither is Kataki). In both of these situations, however, tokens is not appropriate to the meta.
The first question, however, is not as often addressed because most people don't understand the dynamics of the deck vis-a-vis other strategies. The core of the deck is the mana base and token generators. Everything else is optional. It is not correct to keep your discard versus Jund, for example. The best way to win against Jund is to board in more threats and things to address the battlefield. Jund is good at making a grindy game, but they also lack the ability to recover from a neutral-bad board state like we can in the long run. Against Merfolk? Discard is marginal and should be prioritized less than life gain and affecting the board state. Against Tron? Basically, discard is your best defense. You have to think about what you want the deck to do and how long the game is likely to go, then pick the cards that will best help you achieve a win.
Beat Martyr Proc, Fish and finally Living End.
And advice is pretty welcome, but boarding out Discard vs. super-grindy decks isn't kinda-like "secret tech" - it's the most obvious thing to do.
But I think I need advice regarding infect and protectiom from white. It renders my PTE useless and i can't block with white tokens.
Treat Infect like the International Most Wanted Criminals list: just get rid of them, fast! As for pro white, that's a rather niche ability that really just blows us out. If you are only running white removal, I strongly suggest running at least 1 Dismember and 1 Murderous Cut. Maybe even go down a Path for another piece of black removal if it's such a problem?
I'm going to start using my winnings in tournaments to rebuy what I sold off for this deck. I had to build something new to start winning, and now I can focus on getting this back together. I'm only missing 3 BB, 2 Auriok Champions, 2 Shambling Vents and 3 Sorins, so it shouldn't be too bad considering I typically get around $35 every week.
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"Don't believe everything you read on the internet." - Abraham Lincoln
I have just recently got into this deck and I love it. I put the mainboard together out of some cards I had laying around (Lands/Removal/Disruption mostly) and picked up some of the Anthems and Token Generators. My current meta involves a few combo decks (RG Breach, Infinite Life Loop, Goblin Storm) some affinity (not Tier 1 lists), creature aggro (GW Humans, BG +1/+1 Counters, UG Evolve, Mono-White Equipment), Tier 1 Jund, Re-animator/Dredge style decks, and some random brews here and there. I am currently a budget player but I will be buying more staples to this list slowly but I have a few questions.
What is the current thoughts on Spectral Procession vs Midnight Haunting? I like the 3 tokens from Spectral but the Triple W is a pain to land on turn 3 sometimes. Is it worth it to run a 2/2 split between them?
What besides Hand Disruption can we do to fight against Combo Decks like Scapeshift or RG Breach? Has anyone considered Lost Legacy or is it just not worth the slots in the SB?
What "Core" cards I am missing should I prioritize first? Path to Exile, Thoughtseize, Godless Shrine?
What is our best tool to fight against board wipes? I thought about Repel the Abominable as a way to fight against damage based sweepers or prevent a couple of Valakut Triggers. Is there something better or more consistent?
The general consensus is Midnight Haunting has a very flexible casting cost compared to Procession, so in a list (such as yours) that plays GQ in the main you would want Haunting. Unfortunately, Scapeshift and Through the Breach are some of our worst matchups. Any deck that can go over the top with mana is a bad matchup. Windbrisk Heights is probably the best we have because it is attached to a land, so it is (functionally) free. As for board wipes, we recover from them pretty quick because one of our cards will always make 2-3 tokens. I know many have tried, and liked, Selfless Spirit, but Repel seems pretty interesting and could work. As for what you're missing, I would get the Paths first. They're the best removal in the format. It's close though. You could honestly get what you're missing as they come by for you.
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I'm still working out a good balance of hand disruption, loading up my Zealous Persecution copies to deal with some aggro, and I'm going to be trying out Elspeth, Sun's Champion in place of Elspeth, Knight-Errant.
My Modern Playlist:
BWTokens | GBElves
4 Flooded Strand
3 Godless Shrine
2 Isolated Chapel
1 Caves of Koilos
3 Shambling Vent
1 Windbrisk Heights
5 Plains
1 Swamp
24 Lands
2 Thoughtseize
2 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Collective Brutality
9 Discard
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Darkblast
4 Path to Exile
7 Removal
4 Lingering Souls
4 Spectral Procession
12 Tokens
3 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Planeswalker
4 Intangible Virtue
4 Hymns
Sideboard:
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Disenchant
2 Kor Firewalker
1 Pithing Needle
1 Collective Brutality
1 Darkblast
Think i'll switch 1 Extraction for a Shriekmaw because it's a super-great Removal / Blocker against Eldrazi.
Bitterblossom is like a Turn 2- Do nothing.
I wouldn't recommend it, since every deck and his mom trys to blow you out T2 / 3.
Games ending? I don't keep track.
Like 6 (super fast) to Turn 15 (UWr, Jund).
Funny fact, i've never lost a match against UWr right now - they just can't keep up with Lingering Souls.
Green @ it's best
I've tested this deck, stumbled wiht it and now i'm right-alined wiht it.
This is ALL 'bout Budget and why to play or not-to-play this deck.
Went another 2-1 today (just for being ill-minded on calling Pithing Needle wrong).
So, this post is about what is right and wrong with budget-brewing with tish deck.
At first, the most important, missing piece between Budget and non-Budget is...Auriok Champion.
Not Bitterblossom, not 'Seize, not...anything else, but champion.
Like i posted weeks ago, modern is about super-fast linear decks (Robots, Infection, Deth's Shadow,...Bushwhacker Zoo) and the more grindier decks - UWr and Jund. Boths grindier decks try to elongate the game artificaly. Answer threats, control the midgame, place a threat thereselfs. The super-fast, busted linear decks tries to shorten teh match till turn 2 (maybe 3), but at all seriousness - they try to kill at the fastest pace.
Where does BW Tokens (On-a-Budget) fits in?
So, we’re in the middle of nowhere. We got the right tools to out-grind decks, as we tend to control the busted „Turn 2 go-heavy-or-go-home“-decks.
What’s to optimize?
Pendling between Aggro and Control is no-good fit for this deck. Tidehollow Sculler is like super-random. It doesn’t excel in any discipline, but doesn’t shine in any other. Path, Persecution and IoK are super-good tools right now. There’s no Tron, no Combo to beat – they’re literally dead right now. This is our time to shine. Just streamlining is difficult.
Roads to head on
A) Being more Aggro’ish
Forget ‚bout it. Trying Brimaz, King of Oreskos? Yeah, got’cha wiht Blighted Agent on the play. Seriously, we cannot race Aggro(-Combo). So we shouldn’t try.
B) Being more midrange’ish
There’s no Lightning Bolt in BW-Colors. We got Darkblast and Disfigure. Which are ok – there’s no Wild Nacatl that beats on us. There are jsut Glisterner elf and Signal Pest right now.
Heading down teh Road
Tools are here to be used to. So why not? We’re missing Dark Confidant, Liliana of the Veil and others. But do we need those?
Liliana shines in Combo-/Control-MU’s, Bob into grindier things too. So what’s our next step in our Masterplan?
Up to you! Here are some impressions:
Monastery Mentor
Needs alot of Discard and Removal, shines in teh Mid- to Lategame. Even a Thoughtseize does become a Token.
Pack Rat
THIS is really grindy. Took us like a lot of Lands and super-solid answers.
kitchen finks
Yeah, my idea. Bitterblossom feels much better wiht 2-life-backup. Timely Reinforcements are super-solid too. Know my issues, there’s no good way of trading our tokens into useful ressources (like Butcher oft he Horde). Can’t imagine anything useful. Viscera Seer and Cartel Aristocrat pushes us into Aristract-Waters.
Teh Value Package – Lingering Souls, Collective Brutality, Darkblast
All of tehm are great tools, no matter what. BUT-do they contribute to a useful synergy?
I can’t imagine right now and this may be a task for someone else.
These are my thoughts (also not complted right now) to this topic.
Green @ it's best
Green @ it's best
Jund is propably a 50/50-MU...it all depends on good Topdecks.
Therefore it's no shame to loose to the Nr. 1 Modern Deck.
Green @ it's best
Elspeth, Sun's Champion certainly was drawn and saw play, almost winning me a first round against a control deck (colors were UWR). If it wasn't for the fact that Elspeth was the only target for all his burn 4 turns in a row, I could've won for certain. Timely Reinforcements also got play, though not to maximum value despite having round 1 Elves and round 4 Merfolk games.
The deck is playable when I don't brick, even competitive - some rounds it's so strong it seems like I'm playing a control shell without any counterspells. But the variance in sideboarding necessity can really make how each week goes for me differ; some weeks it's a bunch of good close games, maybe even a win, other weeks I might as well be playing an intro deck because I perform so badly.
Right now I need a few things. First, I need another Thoughtseize to round out my hand disruption and finally remove that last placeholder Duress. Next, I want to secure a play set of Gather the Townsfolk to begin experimenting with that. Then I think I might just sit and wait for Concealed Courtyard. There's at least 2 Auriok Champion copies at my LGS, but I'm not blowing $70 on two cards right now. The only other major upgrade is Godless Shrine, that plus fastlands means goodbye Caves of Koilos and Isolated Chapel.
I'm considering if mainboarding two Ghost Quarter is worth it in my meta. I've seen a ton of decks it'd help with: Tron, Merfolk, anything with animate lands like Infect or some control shells, and so on. Vault of the Archangel is typically almost never drawn, and I rarely find it to be a worthy mana sink - Sorin, Solemn Visitor is drawn rather reliably at three copies, and I'd rather spend the mana animate Shambling Vent.
I'm still really searching for that stable ground for the deck yet.
My Modern Playlist:
BWTokens | GBElves
Beat Skred Red, Lantern Control and Hatebears.
Draw just to UW Emeria
Green @ it's best
Tokens relies heavily on you knowing the correct hand to keep for the match. There is an ideal keep and clear mulligan rules. Likewise, you have to know when to mulligan and then how to play tightly in the matchup you see.
Given these, Jund and Abzan are heavily, and I mean heavily, favored. You are basically an auto win game 1 and if you lose the next two, then it has to do with incorrect side boarding (that is, you keep your hand disruption when you just want more gas).
Before this, though, you have to ask: what will I play against? And what is worth spending my 75 cards on?
The latter question is addressed in other threads and locations. Tons of card choices are available. You just need to pick some and consider what is good in which matches. You reference Vial, but you have to understand that those matches will not be addressed by hitting their hand or the artifact. You have to hit the board. Wrath effects become much better here and we have a large number to choose from. They are hurt much more by wrath effects than we are, in general. Merfolk is so bad as to be not worth the sideboard unless you see it as a large portion of the meta. The same with tron. In those cases, it is worth boarding playsets of key cards (disenchant is not one, neither is Kataki). In both of these situations, however, tokens is not appropriate to the meta.
The first question, however, is not as often addressed because most people don't understand the dynamics of the deck vis-a-vis other strategies. The core of the deck is the mana base and token generators. Everything else is optional. It is not correct to keep your discard versus Jund, for example. The best way to win against Jund is to board in more threats and things to address the battlefield. Jund is good at making a grindy game, but they also lack the ability to recover from a neutral-bad board state like we can in the long run. Against Merfolk? Discard is marginal and should be prioritized less than life gain and affecting the board state. Against Tron? Basically, discard is your best defense. You have to think about what you want the deck to do and how long the game is likely to go, then pick the cards that will best help you achieve a win.
Beat Martyr Proc, Fish and finally Living End.
And advice is pretty welcome, but boarding out Discard vs. super-grindy decks isn't kinda-like "secret tech" - it's the most obvious thing to do.
Green @ it's best
RDW - won: 2-0
Coco elves - won: 2-0
Mono black infect: lost: 0-2
The champ was the mono black infect.
Lost to phyrexian crusader equiped with artifacts, TS, and IoKs.
Used playset of duress and tidehollow as hand attack due to budget constraints.
But I think I need advice regarding infect and protectiom from white. It renders my PTE useless and i can't block with white tokens.
Zealous Persecution sometimes wipes there board, Fulminator Mage takes care of all important Lands they got.
Blessed Alliance is also super-great tech, because there only out against it is Spell Pierce.
Edit:
So only a 2-2 at a Local Gamestore Event on last saturday.
Ran into 3 Combo-Decks at all, which got me blasted.
Green @ it's best
I'm going to start using my winnings in tournaments to rebuy what I sold off for this deck. I had to build something new to start winning, and now I can focus on getting this back together. I'm only missing 3 BB, 2 Auriok Champions, 2 Shambling Vents and 3 Sorins, so it shouldn't be too bad considering I typically get around $35 every week.
Did you miss the Discard?
Green @ it's best
4 Isolated Chapel
4 Caves of Koilos
7 Plains
3 Swamp
3 Ghost Quarter
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Shambling Vent
Token Generators
4 Raise the Alarm
4 Lingering Souls
4 Spectral Procession
2 Timely Reinforcements
4 Intangible Virtue
2 Honor of the Pure
Removal
1 Murderous Cut
2 Go For The Throat
1 Dismember
2 Anguished Unmaking
2 Zealous Persecution
Hand Disruption
4 Duress
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
Planeswalkers
3 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
2 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Sundering Growth
2 Hallowed Moonlight
2 Condemn
2 Blessed Alliance
I have just recently got into this deck and I love it. I put the mainboard together out of some cards I had laying around (Lands/Removal/Disruption mostly) and picked up some of the Anthems and Token Generators. My current meta involves a few combo decks (RG Breach, Infinite Life Loop, Goblin Storm) some affinity (not Tier 1 lists), creature aggro (GW Humans, BG +1/+1 Counters, UG Evolve, Mono-White Equipment), Tier 1 Jund, Re-animator/Dredge style decks, and some random brews here and there. I am currently a budget player but I will be buying more staples to this list slowly but I have a few questions.
What is the current thoughts on Spectral Procession vs Midnight Haunting? I like the 3 tokens from Spectral but the Triple W is a pain to land on turn 3 sometimes. Is it worth it to run a 2/2 split between them?
What besides Hand Disruption can we do to fight against Combo Decks like Scapeshift or RG Breach? Has anyone considered Lost Legacy or is it just not worth the slots in the SB?
What "Core" cards I am missing should I prioritize first? Path to Exile, Thoughtseize, Godless Shrine?
What is our best tool to fight against board wipes? I thought about Repel the Abominable as a way to fight against damage based sweepers or prevent a couple of Valakut Triggers. Is there something better or more consistent?
Is Windbrisk Heights our best choice for card advantage/draw? Are cards like Sign in Blood, Night's Whisper, or Altar's Reap viable choices or is that just diluting the strategy?
Thanks ahead for your replies