Visitor seems like an interesting choice, but I will leave the obligatory "playing creatures doesn't work too great in tokens" argument. One of tokens major strengths is making your opponent's removal bad trade offs, like trading three removal spells to deal with one Spectral Procession. It's definitely worth a shot though. Let us know your results!
Speaking of Procession, a lot of players in the non-budget primer have cut it in favor of Midnight Haunting. The added flexibility of being an instant lets us hold up removal on the opponent's turn and the one less token isn't a huge deal. I haven't personally tried it yet but I am working on getting my playset to do so.
On a different note, I think we need to start a Cockatrice/XMage testing group. While I will be unable to participate due to not wanting that kind of thing on my computer, it would help everybody else figure out matchups and test new cards. If you guys have accounts, post them along with the platform. I'll update the primer (which I've been putting off due to final exams) with them along with a table of contents.
So i discussed some of the aforementioned choices with Buddy's and there arguments are total valid.
Here's what they say and i agreed to:
Call the Bloodline
Just a worse Bitterblossom. Even if we got stuff for feeding Call, it's just worse in every case.
Plus it pushes the deck in more midrange territory...which can be ok, but needs a bit build around.
Spectral Procession
Provides 3 Bodies for 3 Mana, thus is great. BUT...costs WWW which is clunky in many situations and my 3cmc slot is overcrowded already. I'm going to shave this down to 3 and add a singleton Gather the Townsfolk to curve out smoother. I agrre to Wolfpacks advice on going for Midnight Haunting, which is instant-speed and can be cast on Turn 3 with a swamp in play.
Tidehollow Sculler
This is a body attached to a Thoughtseize, but honestly only fine in the usual aggro-shell. As soon as i got my third 'Seize i'll cut him. You and i should be aware that this change will make sideboarding more difficult. There are now 7 Discard Spells that we want to cut in certain Matchups, which should be evaluated the right we when it comes down for puzzling together a good sideboard.
Sideboard
So this is a brief introduction for fine sideboard choices that fits well in our Deck:
Relic of Progenitus
Hoses all Grixis Decks, Jund, Junk, Naya - which relies heavily on there Grave. Shuts down all snapcaster mage shenanigans.
Buffs all graveyard-dependend combo-strategies (Living End, Dredge, Gifts, Abzan Company...). This is a solid 2 - 3-of.
Pithing Needle
Voids a lot of problematic Cards we cannot handle smoothly. Manlands, Planeswalkers, even Fetchlands. Your choice of running 1 - 2.
Stony Silence
Great vs. Robots and Tron, ok'ish against Ad Nauseam. Solid 2-of.
Hallowed Moonlight
One possible way to fight combo decks. Most of the Modern-esque combo'ish decks rely on cheating creatures into the game.
This cards buffs those and cantrips. Totally fine as long as Company and Chord-Decks are amassing.
Excellent analysis, Polymorph. We can't run Dark Confidant because Spectral technically costs 6 mana. Once you hit a decent amount of one mana discard spells (generally 6) you should probably cut Scullers. Thank you Xinone! I know I keep putting off updating the primer, but once finals are over tomorrow I'll update it!
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ran a disappointing 0-2-2 yesterday, with some close Matches.
1st the Mirror, than UW Emeria, 3rd has been Soul Sisters and finally Abzan Company.
I ran my old list with 4 Spectral Procession and now 3 shambling vent.
The Vents has been ok, but i claim these are one of the weaker Modern Manlands
I flooded a lot of times with nothing to do at all, so i think i'll add a 3rd Sorin, Solemn Visitor summing up in 4 Planeswalkers at all.
A 4th Inquisition of Kozilek gets in too, because i was missing important Discard in many situations.
I'm gambling with the idea of fulfilling the shambling vent playset, the windbrisk heights doesn't add anything really important to my deck.
What bothers me most yesterday has been the lack of an adequate Scavenging Ooze replacement in BW Colors. That had been so important in a lot of situations, it's just crazy. Maybe i'll tick up my Relic Count to 4 ?!
Updates on my list. I've managed to snatch another copy of Inquisition of Kozilek for a very fair price. I'm in doubt about the Thoughtseize x Inquisition of Kozilek ratio. I'm currently running 3x3, but now I can split 2 seizes and 4 inquisitions. Another option is ticking up to 7 discards main deck, but I'm unsure of what to take out of the deck. I'm looking at 1 copy of Honor of the Pure. That would be a no-brainer if I had x1-2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, as it acts as a functional anthem as well. I guess this type of question is ultimately better solved in a Bitterblossom build.
Regardless, I think it is a good idea to pro/con our alternatives. Maybe primer-worthy if we have a good discussion?
For the x2 seizes x4 inquisitions split:
pros: better equipped against Burn and aggro matchups, as lifeloss matters. Hits most of the relevant threats and bombs in Modern.
cons: Inquisitions aren't particularly good vs. combos such as Scapeshift or Ad Nauseam (granted, it takes care of Angel's Grace at least).
For the x3 seizes x3 Inquisitions split:
pros: better equipped against combo and any sort of deck with huge threats. Tron (both GR and Mono U), any Eldrazi deck that runs Reality Smasher, and so forth. The extra seize also comes in handy vs control matchups that pack Cryptic Command and Supreme Verdict.
cons: more lifeloss, because we're not in a rush to stabilize the board or anything like that.
What do you guys thinks? Once again, here is my updated list for reference:
A white source that does cantrip on purpose seems to be alright.
If it just hasn't got this horrible price tag
Soooo...ran another couple of Games today:
1st up: Merfolk spreading seas twice sealed the deal match 1. Match 2 he just drew horribly and i put enough pressure on him. Last match i couldn't handle Kira and lost to Lords.
3rd bout: Kiki-Chord
Not much to say here...just a horrible Matchup w/o sideboard cards. Lost 0-2 here.
Think i'll tick up my hallowed moonlight to 2 copies in the side. I'm going to complete my discard suite soon and will likely cut tidehollow sculler. This dude is clunky and not much of a threat in most cases.
Keep you informed of further improvements, hf & gl
Canopy is really just strictly worse for our purposes. It's a matter of one card versus seeing four. Plus it hurts us for making colored mana. It's pretty bad compared to Heights.
On a market note, Bitterblossoms are starting to come down in price. I'm seeing some in the $20-25 range on tcgplayer, which is truly a first. I nabbed two and will have my playset shortly. I'll keep posting here and updating in the future.
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Apologies for the double post, but I feel I should make a separate post for this. Your discard package is always VERY difficult to figure out, and there's nothing wrong with taking what you feel is the easy way out. Truthfully, you can go either way, and it will shift as the meta shifts. You cam default seven and cut an Honor, but really it's a meta choice. Meta analysis is key for this kind of stuff.
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I switched finally Heights for a total of 4 Shambling Vent.
Heights is just too random in many cases, just my 5 Cents.
So i weaked my sideboard again and included 2 Torpor Orb, therefor cut the Hallowed Moonlight and To the Slaughter.
Both are too much kind of reactive cards, which i wouldn't be at. Maybe someone tries Grafidders Cage, which looks better than Relic + Orb.
Orb shuts down Chord and Company Decks alike, thus i must cut Tidehollow Sculler for it.
Wait whats coming up next...
Thanks for the heads up, CalvaryWolfPack! In the long run it is always better to have all the options available to fine tune our deck.
What would you recommend for a metagame as random and vast as a GP? São Paulo is going to host one in July and I'm positive that this is my deck of choice (not that I have many options TBH hahaha).
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Modern: BUR Grixis Death's Shadow/Control BUR & WBC Eldrazi & Taxes WBC
EDH: UG Edric, Spymaster of Goodstuff UG
For a grand prix I suggest you include hate for
Company decks
Affinity
Blood moon(people will play it perhaps in a prison deck)
Infect may be one to consider I saw people saying infect is hard but zealous persecution is nuts against them
You will probably see tron unfortunately this matchup is super hard it may be worth not having a side for them. If you have stony that is good
Jund/junk is already a good matchup we don't need much here
Control will show up as well
Valakut decks
If you fear valkut and tron over fair decks with big creatures perhaps cut vault and swap some lands to make room for ghost quarters?
It's not budget but has anyone tried chalice? Good verse infect, storm, livingend, other combo decks
Chalice is too narrow. Considering how many people need help with sideboards a lot, I will have to add more SB suggestions. ikillutwice is on the right track, but you can't possibly run hate for all of them. Be very broad with your hate. I would run 2 Disenchant in the SB hands down. Too many Blood Moons these days. I would also pack at least 2 Timely Reinforcements. We are sitting in a VERY aggro heavy meta presently. I like 2x Duress against control strategies and GQ is sometimes nice but may not be relevant. For the mainboard, pick up 2x Anguished Unmaking, maybe relegating one to the side. Check out MTGGoldfish to get a read on the meta.
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What dose every one thinking about declaration stone in main and side for extra remvoal? I been think about it. Mtgo I have bitterbloosms but paper I do not. Personal I side out bitter a lotime, but main board due to red being out there a lot we have more hate in the main.
I tested a couple of Matches on Cockatrice, especially with my finally arrived 3rd Thoughtseize.
Testings always represents my Paper Deck, so i went for 3 Seize, 4 IoK and added 2 Torpor Orb in my side.
Here are some suggestions, open for further debate:
A) Pithing Needle
It does look innocent, but WOW --- this does some serious work.
It hits so many things it's ridiculous good. Not only Manlands, Fetchlands and so on, it has a ton of uses.
Maybe it't time to sleeve up a 2nd copy
B) Torpor Orb
This tends to be fine against all the Creature-Combo Decks with Finks, Witness, Resto Angel... Hallowed Moonlight is a super sweet tech, but forces me to leave up W1 all the time.
This is something i can't afford to do in order to keep up a proactive gameplan
C) Stain the Mind
I'm keeping an eye on this one.
It is guilty of cluttering my hand more than once. The usual gameplan is a T2 / T3 Tokenmaker and thus getting Stain
online T3 - T4. If there are no tokens guess what happens --- it sticks as a dead card in hand. I don't think theres
an adequate replacement...anybody suggestions?
D) Planeswalker
I ticked up to 4 Walkers, for now 2 Sorin, 1 Gideon, 1 Elspeth. 4 has been perfect because i see at least 1 during my
regular matches. Future tweaks will include to switch 1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant for an additional Gideon, Ally of Zendikar. Gideon is much better in closing games because he's is a faster clock than
Elspeth and has more relevant Modes.
Decided on building BW tokens today and went through my cards to see what I already have.
I'm wanting to build a more midrange type of list but I'm unsure where to even start. I've also budgeted spending ~$100 to get it off the ground.
Decided on building BW tokens today and went through my cards to see what I already have.
I'm wanting to build a more midrange type of list but I'm unsure where to even start. I've also budgeted spending ~$100 to get it off the ground.
This has a lot of synergy with 2 Cards: lingering souls and Asylum Visitor!!! And it's even on-curve!
I had my eye on Visitor for a couple of weeks now, but there has been no place for settling him down. Might be the right fit here
Green @ it's best
Speaking of Procession, a lot of players in the non-budget primer have cut it in favor of Midnight Haunting. The added flexibility of being an instant lets us hold up removal on the opponent's turn and the one less token isn't a huge deal. I haven't personally tried it yet but I am working on getting my playset to do so.
On a different note, I think we need to start a Cockatrice/XMage testing group. While I will be unable to participate due to not wanting that kind of thing on my computer, it would help everybody else figure out matchups and test new cards. If you guys have accounts, post them along with the platform. I'll update the primer (which I've been putting off due to final exams) with them along with a table of contents.
Here's what they say and i agreed to:
Call the Bloodline
Just a worse Bitterblossom. Even if we got stuff for feeding Call, it's just worse in every case.
Plus it pushes the deck in more midrange territory...which can be ok, but needs a bit build around.
Asylum Visitor
Just a bad Dark Confidant. Pushes the deck towards a BW Midrange Shell.
Spectral Procession
Provides 3 Bodies for 3 Mana, thus is great. BUT...costs WWW which is clunky in many situations and my 3cmc slot is overcrowded already. I'm going to shave this down to 3 and add a singleton Gather the Townsfolk to curve out smoother. I agrre to Wolfpacks advice on going for Midnight Haunting, which is instant-speed and can be cast on Turn 3 with a swamp in play.
Tidehollow Sculler
This is a body attached to a Thoughtseize, but honestly only fine in the usual aggro-shell. As soon as i got my third 'Seize i'll cut him. You and i should be aware that this change will make sideboarding more difficult. There are now 7 Discard Spells that we want to cut in certain Matchups, which should be evaluated the right we when it comes down for puzzling together a good sideboard.
Sideboard
So this is a brief introduction for fine sideboard choices that fits well in our Deck:
Relic of Progenitus
Hoses all Grixis Decks, Jund, Junk, Naya - which relies heavily on there Grave. Shuts down all snapcaster mage shenanigans.
Buffs all graveyard-dependend combo-strategies (Living End, Dredge, Gifts, Abzan Company...). This is a solid 2 - 3-of.
Pithing Needle
Voids a lot of problematic Cards we cannot handle smoothly. Manlands, Planeswalkers, even Fetchlands. Your choice of running 1 - 2.
Stony Silence
Great vs. Robots and Tron, ok'ish against Ad Nauseam. Solid 2-of.
Hallowed Moonlight
One possible way to fight combo decks. Most of the Modern-esque combo'ish decks rely on cheating creatures into the game.
This cards buffs those and cantrips. Totally fine as long as Company and Chord-Decks are amassing.
Green @ it's best
ran a disappointing 0-2-2 yesterday, with some close Matches.
1st the Mirror, than UW Emeria, 3rd has been Soul Sisters and finally Abzan Company.
I ran my old list with 4 Spectral Procession and now 3 shambling vent.
The Vents has been ok, but i claim these are one of the weaker Modern Manlands
I flooded a lot of times with nothing to do at all, so i think i'll add a 3rd Sorin, Solemn Visitor summing up in 4 Planeswalkers at all.
A 4th Inquisition of Kozilek gets in too, because i was missing important Discard in many situations.
I'm gambling with the idea of fulfilling the shambling vent playset, the windbrisk heights doesn't add anything really important to my deck.
What bothers me most yesterday has been the lack of an adequate Scavenging Ooze replacement in BW Colors. That had been so important in a lot of situations, it's just crazy. Maybe i'll tick up my Relic Count to 4 ?!
Here's my fixed list for now:
4 windswept heath
3 godless shrine
1 isolated chapel
6 plains
2 swamps
3 shambling vent
1 windbrisk heights
24 Lands
4 Spectral Procession
4 Lingering Souls
12 Token Makers
4 Intangible Virtue
1 Honor of the Pure
5 Hymns
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
2 Tidehollow Sculler
8 Discard
1 Dismember
1 Murderous Cut
1 Zealous Persecution
7 Removal
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Planeswalker
Green @ it's best
Updates on my list. I've managed to snatch another copy of Inquisition of Kozilek for a very fair price. I'm in doubt about the Thoughtseize x Inquisition of Kozilek ratio. I'm currently running 3x3, but now I can split 2 seizes and 4 inquisitions. Another option is ticking up to 7 discards main deck, but I'm unsure of what to take out of the deck. I'm looking at 1 copy of Honor of the Pure. That would be a no-brainer if I had x1-2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, as it acts as a functional anthem as well. I guess this type of question is ultimately better solved in a Bitterblossom build.
Regardless, I think it is a good idea to pro/con our alternatives. Maybe primer-worthy if we have a good discussion?
For the x2 seizes x4 inquisitions split:
pros: better equipped against Burn and aggro matchups, as lifeloss matters. Hits most of the relevant threats and bombs in Modern.
cons: Inquisitions aren't particularly good vs. combos such as Scapeshift or Ad Nauseam (granted, it takes care of Angel's Grace at least).
For the x3 seizes x3 Inquisitions split:
pros: better equipped against combo and any sort of deck with huge threats. Tron (both GR and Mono U), any Eldrazi deck that runs Reality Smasher, and so forth. The extra seize also comes in handy vs control matchups that pack Cryptic Command and Supreme Verdict.
cons: more lifeloss, because we're not in a rush to stabilize the board or anything like that.
What do you guys thinks? Once again, here is my updated list for reference:
4 Godless Shrine
2 Isolated Chapel
2 Fetid Heath
3 Windswept Heath
4 Windbrisk Heights
2 Vault of the Archangel
4 Plains
2 Swamp
Token Generators (13)
3 Raise the Alarm
4 Lingering Souls
4 Spectral Procession
2 Timely Reinforcements
4 Intangible Virtue
2 Honor of the Pure
Removal (8)
4 Path to Exile
2 Dismember
2 Zealous Persecution
Discard (6)
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
Others (4):
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Worship
2 Hero of Bladehold
2 Auriok Champion
2 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Extirpate
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Sundering Growth
3 Stony Silence
BUR Grixis Death's Shadow/Control BUR & WBC Eldrazi & Taxes WBC
EDH:
UG Edric, Spymaster of Goodstuff UG
A white source that does cantrip on purpose seems to be alright.
If it just hasn't got this horrible price tag
Soooo...ran another couple of Games today:
1st up: Merfolk
spreading seas twice sealed the deal match 1. Match 2 he just drew horribly and i put enough pressure on him. Last match i couldn't handle Kira and lost to Lords.
2nd round: UWRb Control
He splashes black for lingering souls. ancestral vision wasn't enough in 2 Matches along his souls to protect Nahiri. 1 Match he went for emrakul, the aeons torn which was gg
3rd bout: Kiki-Chord
Not much to say here...just a horrible Matchup w/o sideboard cards. Lost 0-2 here.
Think i'll tick up my hallowed moonlight to 2 copies in the side. I'm going to complete my discard suite soon and will likely cut tidehollow sculler. This dude is clunky and not much of a threat in most cases.
Keep you informed of further improvements, hf & gl
Green @ it's best
On a market note, Bitterblossoms are starting to come down in price. I'm seeing some in the $20-25 range on tcgplayer, which is truly a first. I nabbed two and will have my playset shortly. I'll keep posting here and updating in the future.
guess i won't come along to test Canopy though
I switched finally Heights for a total of 4 Shambling Vent.
Heights is just too random in many cases, just my 5 Cents.
So i weaked my sideboard again and included 2 Torpor Orb, therefor cut the Hallowed Moonlight and To the Slaughter.
Both are too much kind of reactive cards, which i wouldn't be at. Maybe someone tries Grafidders Cage, which looks better than Relic + Orb.
Orb shuts down Chord and Company Decks alike, thus i must cut Tidehollow Sculler for it.
Wait whats coming up next...
Green @ it's best
What would you recommend for a metagame as random and vast as a GP? São Paulo is going to host one in July and I'm positive that this is my deck of choice (not that I have many options TBH hahaha).
BUR Grixis Death's Shadow/Control BUR & WBC Eldrazi & Taxes WBC
EDH:
UG Edric, Spymaster of Goodstuff UG
Company decks
Affinity
Blood moon(people will play it perhaps in a prison deck)
Infect may be one to consider I saw people saying infect is hard but zealous persecution is nuts against them
You will probably see tron unfortunately this matchup is super hard it may be worth not having a side for them. If you have stony that is good
Jund/junk is already a good matchup we don't need much here
Control will show up as well
Valakut decks
If you fear valkut and tron over fair decks with big creatures perhaps cut vault and swap some lands to make room for ghost quarters?
It's not budget but has anyone tried chalice? Good verse infect, storm, livingend, other combo decks
I tested a couple of Matches on Cockatrice, especially with my finally arrived 3rd Thoughtseize.
Testings always represents my Paper Deck, so i went for 3 Seize, 4 IoK and added 2 Torpor Orb in my side.
Here are some suggestions, open for further debate:
A) Pithing Needle
It does look innocent, but WOW --- this does some serious work.
It hits so many things it's ridiculous good. Not only Manlands, Fetchlands and so on, it has a ton of uses.
Maybe it't time to sleeve up a 2nd copy
B) Torpor Orb
This tends to be fine against all the Creature-Combo Decks with Finks, Witness, Resto Angel...
Hallowed Moonlight is a super sweet tech, but forces me to leave up W1 all the time.
This is something i can't afford to do in order to keep up a proactive gameplan
C) Stain the Mind
I'm keeping an eye on this one.
It is guilty of cluttering my hand more than once. The usual gameplan is a T2 / T3 Tokenmaker and thus getting Stain
online T3 - T4. If there are no tokens guess what happens --- it sticks as a dead card in hand. I don't think theres
an adequate replacement...anybody suggestions?
D) Planeswalker
I ticked up to 4 Walkers, for now 2 Sorin, 1 Gideon, 1 Elspeth. 4 has been perfect because i see at least 1 during my
regular matches. Future tweaks will include to switch 1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant for an additional
Gideon, Ally of Zendikar. Gideon is much better in closing games because he's is a faster clock than
Elspeth and has more relevant Modes.
Green @ it's best
I'm wanting to build a more midrange type of list but I'm unsure where to even start. I've also budgeted spending ~$100 to get it off the ground.
3 Path to Exile
3 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Duress
4 Spectral Procession
2 Zealous Persecution
3 Lingering Souls
3 Godless Shrine
1 Isolated Chapel