This is a modern, relatively budget (well, its budget if you take out the gravecrawlers) combo deck. The three main pieces are Geralf's Messenger, Retribution of the Ancients, and Bloodthrone Vampire. You sacrifice the messenger to Bloodthrone Vampire, and the messenger returns to the battlefield due to undying. Then you remove the +1/+1 counter of the messenger with Retribution of the Ancients, so that it can return to the battlefield again with undying. After that, sac again with Bloodthrone Vampire. Rinse and repeat. Your opponent loses 2 life each time Geralf's Messenger enters the battlefield, so they should die pretty soon (also, you can probably kill off their creatures with retribution and you get a huge Bloodthrone Vampire). Falkenrath Noble, Dictate of Erebos, and Crypt Ghast all make the combo even more potent. If you don't draw into either the deck's tutors or main pieces, Gravecrawler, Disciple of Griselbrand, and Hex Parasite can replace the main parts, even if they aren't quite as good. As of now this is only a decklist, I haven't actually made it into a deck, although I have done some light testing online. Are there any ways the deck could be improved, preferably without spending an obscene amount of money?
I'm new to mtg salvation, and I've only been playing magic for a little over two years now, so I'm kind of a noob, but I hope you all like the deck.
I like the concept. I'd use Viscera Seer as a sacrifice engine. I'd cut all the tutors (if you wanted to run a tutor here it'd be Beseech The Queen by the way) and make more room for spot removal and targeted discard.
Thanks for the input, and I'm glad you guys like it. I'll definitely replace Falkenrath noble with Blood Artist, and I'd totally forgotten about viscera seer (that might replace Disciple of Griselbrand, since the life gain isn't really necessary after the combo starts working). I guess I don't really need all the tutors, since I have cards that can act as replacements for the main pieces. More removal is probably needed, since Dictate of Erebos and Retribution of the Ancients can only kill off opposing creatures when Geralf's Messenger starts getting sacrificed. I was originally thinking about Bone Splinters, but Tragic Slip sounds better. I'm a little hesitant to run Dark Prophecy, but since my opponent will be losing 2 life to my one, and I get a free card, I might run one or two. I also may cut Vampire Hexmage, since its only good for one use and will only be needed to remove one counter, which Retribution of the Ancients and Hex Parasite can do easily (may replace the Hexmage with Dark Prophecy). Is that a good idea? Thanks again!
This deck looks really neat! Retribution looks like a really useful card in the deck and I think it could do a lot of work vs. all of the X/1s in the format right now.
I think some card numbers to change around are:
Viscera Seer - you want this guy to be a 4 of in the deck, lets you sac your messengers when you don't have a Bloodthrone in play.
Gravecrawler - you probably want 4 of this guys too since he is a solid beater who keeps coming back for more.
Hex Parasite - You can probably drop the number of him, I think Retribution is the better card between it and the parasite. Maybe keep 2 in as a backup?
Bloodthrone - This is your main combo beater guy, probably want 4 of him in the deck.
Crypt Ghast - 3 might be the right number, but right now I think you could drop a few of him. You want to play messenger on turn 3 and then sac him 4 times to Bloodthrone on the next turn (paying for Retribution). Ghast gives you more mana to do this but I think the damage you are going to get through with Messenger & bloodthrone will be enough to kill someone at this point.
Dictate of Erbos - Its a really cool card, but I don't think you need it. 5 mana is a lot to spend when you just want to be throwing -1/-1s at opponents creatures. One thing to remember is that if you play this (and say they have 2 creatures out), if you sac messenger twice you won't be able to do it any more times without targeting Retribution on your own guy which you probably don't want to do.
Swamps - 25 is probably too much, I think you could get away with 22 since you are only trying to get to 3 mana.
I'd move your extra Hex Parasites to the sideboard so you can swap them for the Retributions in games where opponents don't play any creatures, but other than that I think you have a really solid deck!
One thing to try out is something like Shadow Alley Denizen. I can see you activating Bloodthrone Vampire 4 times on turn 4, they get drained for 8, then you swing in with a 9/9 and they chump block it with their only remaining creature on board. Shadow Alley is super cheap and can help you get your dudes through for damage, which is made even easier by the fact that you can kill any black creatures your opponent might have with Retribution before attacking.
And you can probably swap the gravecrawlers with either of the 2 1-drops that come back for 2 mana, Tenacious Dead or that new guy from Khans, or you could play Butcher Ghoul if you wanted the creature to be undying.
I definitely agree with your suggestions, LtGlitter. Dictate of Erebos seemed too slow in playtesting anyway, it was pretty much a dead card in my hand. Adding more Viscera Seers and Bloodthrone Vampires also seems good. Shadow Alley Denizen seems interesting. Most of my playgroup hardly plays black, so intimidate could be an alternate way to end games.
Out of Tenacious Dead, Bloodsoaked Champion, and Butcher Ghoul, I'll probably opt for butcher ghoul or maybe the champion. I like the champion for power reasons, but I can reanimate butcher ghoul with Retribution of the Ancients for one black, while the champion needs two mana and an attacking creature.
I was considering adding Liliana Vess, but I think now that she might be too slow. I'll probably keep her as a sideboard or maybeboard (since I play pretty casually) option.
Butcher Ghoul is the best if you want to use Retribution more, but you have to be careful. If your opponents don't have any creatures left to give -X/-X to you will have to target your own guys to make your vampire bigger or to scry with Seer.
Tenacious Dead & Bloodsoaked Champion both work in the same way. If you attack with Bloodthrone Vampire (or seer) you can sac the creature then pay 2 to put it back into play 1B as many times as you want. Shadow Alley gives your attacking creature intimidate so you don't have to worry about not being able to attack to get champion back.
You can probably also add a few more copies of Dark Prophecy to the deck too, maybe play a full set of 4 and only play 2 Shadow Alley Denziens since you only need 1 of them in play to get the intimidate.
Also with the 1 drop recurring creatures, If you have a Seer & Prophecy in play you get to pay 1B to scry 1, then draw a card which is super powerful!
Edit: Liliana Vess can definitly be a sideboard card for you if you want. Her second ability can help you get one of your sacrifice creatures, blood artist, one of your reoccurring creatures, or Dark Prophecy. She would be good vs. decks that are a bit slower so you can get to 5 mana.
I'm sorry to Dash Hopes around here, but speaking as a veteran black mage, this deck might not be competitive. I was playing a similar build without the combo elements and tutoring up until Khans. Bottom line: Mono-black is too slow in the current meta with burn and Delver running around. Geralf especially is too slow, even though he's a house against the right opponent. Black has so much removal that it doesn't make sense to wait around for something to crop up with +1 counters to use when for the same card you could run Victim of Night or Go For the Throat or even Disfigure and be done with it.
But if this is just for casual, just for fun, or you don't care about top-8s at a PTQ, feel free to disregard. For that matter, I'm always seeing everybody else rave about the smash wins they got at their local FNM with marshmallow decks that wouldn't survive at my local shop, so what the heck, it might work anyway.
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It looks like he's playing vs. friends for the most part and I think the deck should work great in that kind of environment. Even at a FNM, if people aren't bringing fully built tier 1 decks I think this could have a better chance than you might think. Probably won't win every game but it might do a bit better than you initially think it would.
Grave Pact is one mana cheaper than Dictate of Erebos, if you don't mind it not having flash.
Grim Haruspex makes Dark Prophecy obsolete, being a creature as well as the effect and not even costing the life to draw.
Disciple of Bolas might be better than tutoring, since this deck is built around sacrificing. Turn any creature into a Sphinx's Revelation! This was a house in Standard.
Yeah, this is primarily for casual play. If it works well I might bring it to a FNM, but for now its casual. I also don't have a tangible version of the deck yet, it's unfortunately still a purely online build (which may change in the future). Also, none of the decks in my group are super competitive, so I'm not too concerned. There's a ban on magic in our school now, so I just wanted to bring a new deck to the table and hopefully inspire some more magic playing (and win some games. I'm notorious for building combo or control decks that almost never win, so it's also kind of a redemption thing, since I taught everyone in my class how to play magic).
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Modern: BW B/W tokens
Casual: RW Circle of Protection: Deck UBW Esper Control
EDH: GUW Roon's Realm of Value and Fun BGU Value is a Zombie With a Fruit Hat (Tasigur Graveyard Shenanigans)
Thanks for the ideas! (I didn't see these when I last posted) I think that Quest for the Gravelord and Disciple of Bolas could be fun, with the quest getting me giant zombies and the disciple getting me a four mana sphinx's revelation on a 2/1 body (I also play esper, so I know Sphinx's Rev isn't to be underestimated, especially when you get lots of cards, life, and a chump blocker all for four mana). Not having flash doesn't seem like much of a problem, and the one mana difference between Grave Pact and Dictate of Erebos is definitely a plus. I'm thinking of running one or two in the main board, maybe as a replacement to 1-2 tragic slips. Grim Haruspex is replacing Dark Prophecy, as long as its not too expensive.
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Modern: BW B/W tokens
Casual: RW Circle of Protection: Deck UBW Esper Control
EDH: GUW Roon's Realm of Value and Fun BGU Value is a Zombie With a Fruit Hat (Tasigur Graveyard Shenanigans)
What madness prompted this? Are they banning all card games too? Out of all the degenerate things kids can do in their free time, a card game is the thing they singled out?
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Dark times indeed. Accusations directed at Black Market trades were our downfall. The other gamers turned their backs on us, and the Pokemon players outright betrayed us. A small group of zealous sixth graders formed, but they were young and weak. Sigh... us eighth graders used to be like them once, but we have since given up hope. Now we only get back together for prereleases and the occasional kitchen table match.
I'm sorry, but that's the truth. Albeit somewhat stretched.
Deck looks pretty solid. If you want to include Grave Pact in the main for more ways to kill opponents creatures then I think you should look for something cheaper like doomblade. I really don't think you need the 4-5 mana investment to make opponents lose creatures when you are just draining them anyway.
I also don't know how great Disciple of Bolas is going to be. He really shines when you have big creatures in the deck but right now your best thing to sac is 3 power. I'm very sure that every time you have him in hand (same with crypt ghast) you are just going to want to use the mana to remove counters from your guy or play more 1/2cmc creatures.
You can probably take out one or both of the Ghasts & Disciples and put in something like Victim of Night if you want more ways to kill creatures beyond your retribution.
Yeah, I guess you're right about grave pact. At that point I'd rather spend 2 mana on a doom blade or something to kill whatever creatures necessary, instead of waiting five turns so that I can make my opponent choose which creatures should die. And by the time I have all my key components, I don't really want to spend five mana on an enchantment, when I could be using that mana to remove +1/+1 counters from geralf's messenger.
I reluctantly agree about the disciple, too. My only other option besides sacrificing the messenger is sacrificing a pumped-up bloodthrone vampire, which I'd rather just attack with. I could keep it to use on the messenger, but its four mana more that I'd have to spend, while I could otherwise sacrifice him for free.
Both victim of night and doom blade seem good as extra removal. I already have a disciple, and I like the idea of the disciples and ghasts, so one of the two may stay for now, but that will probably change with more playtesting, which will definitely be easier after I get all the cards and can make a paper version of the deck.
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Modern: BW B/W tokens
Casual: RW Circle of Protection: Deck UBW Esper Control
EDH: GUW Roon's Realm of Value and Fun BGU Value is a Zombie With a Fruit Hat (Tasigur Graveyard Shenanigans)
The creature numbers will require some adjustment, but so far this has been working. I added in Blasting Station as another great sac outlet. I like Profane Command as flexible removal and a way to get back a combo piece. I could see possibly replacing it with Immortal Servitude but it's not quite the same.
I chose Butcher Ghoul over some of the other options because with a Blood Artist and Retribution on the table, if Ghoul gets a +1/+1 counter, you can remove it to keep targeting itself, eliminating the need for an additional sac outlet.
I've only gotten in two games so far, but one of the wins was a Messenger/Parasite/Station loop with a Blood Artist out. Brutal.
Let me know what you think about some of the changes and thanks for the fun concept.
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Glad you like the idea! Blasting station is an interesting sac outlet. What I like about the station is that although it will deal less damage than the potential damage bloodthrone vampire could deal, the station gets damage through without having to worry about your opponent's creatures.
How are the Hex Parasites working for you? It was one of the first cards I included in the original deck, but I also think it was one of the weaker ones. I suppose it could be nice as a beater with its +1/+0s, but it does seem kind of fragile.
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Modern: BW B/W tokens
Casual: RW Circle of Protection: Deck UBW Esper Control
EDH: GUW Roon's Realm of Value and Fun BGU Value is a Zombie With a Fruit Hat (Tasigur Graveyard Shenanigans)
Why not just play Mardu Zombies for the full effect of the deck? Blasting Station, Lingering Souls, premium removal like Bolt and possibly even Crackling Doom....
I'm new to mtg salvation, and I've only been playing magic for a little over two years now, so I'm kind of a noob, but I hope you all like the deck.
3x Bloodthrone Vampire
3x Crypt Ghast
2x Disciple of Griselbrand
4x Falkenrath Noble
4x Geralf's Messenger
3x Gravecrawler
4x Hex Parasite
4x Retribution of the Ancients
2x Dictate of Erebos
3x Diabolic Tutor
BW B/W tokens
Casual:
RW Circle of Protection: Deck
UBW Esper Control
EDH:
GUW Roon's Realm of Value and Fun
BGU Value is a Zombie With a Fruit Hat (Tasigur Graveyard Shenanigans)
Peasant:
BlUEREd Jeskai Sage Delver Sans Delver
I always thought Geralf's Messenger would be fun to build around.
My first recommendation is try Blood Artist instead of Falkenrath Noble.
The other idea I had was Dark Prophecy. That could equal multiple cards per turn.
Finally, tragic slip can be good removal.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
BW B/W tokens
Casual:
RW Circle of Protection: Deck
UBW Esper Control
EDH:
GUW Roon's Realm of Value and Fun
BGU Value is a Zombie With a Fruit Hat (Tasigur Graveyard Shenanigans)
Peasant:
BlUEREd Jeskai Sage Delver Sans Delver
2 Viscera Seer
3 Gravecrawler
4 Hex Parasite
3 Bloodthrone Vampire
4 Blood Artist
4 Geralf's Messenger
3 Crypt Ghast
4 Retribution of the Ancients
4 Tragic Slip
2 Dark Prophecy
2 Dictate of Erebos
Lands
25 Swamp
1 Duress
1 Beseech the Queen
1 Liliana Vess (less budget but I already have a copy)
BW B/W tokens
Casual:
RW Circle of Protection: Deck
UBW Esper Control
EDH:
GUW Roon's Realm of Value and Fun
BGU Value is a Zombie With a Fruit Hat (Tasigur Graveyard Shenanigans)
Peasant:
BlUEREd Jeskai Sage Delver Sans Delver
This deck looks really neat! Retribution looks like a really useful card in the deck and I think it could do a lot of work vs. all of the X/1s in the format right now.
I think some card numbers to change around are:
Viscera Seer - you want this guy to be a 4 of in the deck, lets you sac your messengers when you don't have a Bloodthrone in play.
Gravecrawler - you probably want 4 of this guys too since he is a solid beater who keeps coming back for more.
Hex Parasite - You can probably drop the number of him, I think Retribution is the better card between it and the parasite. Maybe keep 2 in as a backup?
Bloodthrone - This is your main combo beater guy, probably want 4 of him in the deck.
Crypt Ghast - 3 might be the right number, but right now I think you could drop a few of him. You want to play messenger on turn 3 and then sac him 4 times to Bloodthrone on the next turn (paying for Retribution). Ghast gives you more mana to do this but I think the damage you are going to get through with Messenger & bloodthrone will be enough to kill someone at this point.
Dictate of Erbos - Its a really cool card, but I don't think you need it. 5 mana is a lot to spend when you just want to be throwing -1/-1s at opponents creatures. One thing to remember is that if you play this (and say they have 2 creatures out), if you sac messenger twice you won't be able to do it any more times without targeting Retribution on your own guy which you probably don't want to do.
Swamps - 25 is probably too much, I think you could get away with 22 since you are only trying to get to 3 mana.
I'd move your extra Hex Parasites to the sideboard so you can swap them for the Retributions in games where opponents don't play any creatures, but other than that I think you have a really solid deck!
One thing to try out is something like Shadow Alley Denizen. I can see you activating Bloodthrone Vampire 4 times on turn 4, they get drained for 8, then you swing in with a 9/9 and they chump block it with their only remaining creature on board. Shadow Alley is super cheap and can help you get your dudes through for damage, which is made even easier by the fact that you can kill any black creatures your opponent might have with Retribution before attacking.
Edit: added a deck list of what I'm thinking.
4 Viscera Seer
4 Gravecrawler
2 Hex Parasite
4 Bloodthrone Vampire
4 Blood Artist
4 Geralf's Messenger
2 Crypt Ghast
4 Shadow Alley Denizen
4 Retribution of the Ancients
4 Tragic Slip
2 Dark Prophecy
Lands
22 Swamp
4 Duress
2 Hex Parasite
9 Other Spells
And you can probably swap the gravecrawlers with either of the 2 1-drops that come back for 2 mana, Tenacious Dead or that new guy from Khans, or you could play Butcher Ghoul if you wanted the creature to be undying.
Out of Tenacious Dead, Bloodsoaked Champion, and Butcher Ghoul, I'll probably opt for butcher ghoul or maybe the champion. I like the champion for power reasons, but I can reanimate butcher ghoul with Retribution of the Ancients for one black, while the champion needs two mana and an attacking creature.
I was considering adding Liliana Vess, but I think now that she might be too slow. I'll probably keep her as a sideboard or maybeboard (since I play pretty casually) option.
BW B/W tokens
Casual:
RW Circle of Protection: Deck
UBW Esper Control
EDH:
GUW Roon's Realm of Value and Fun
BGU Value is a Zombie With a Fruit Hat (Tasigur Graveyard Shenanigans)
Peasant:
BlUEREd Jeskai Sage Delver Sans Delver
Tenacious Dead & Bloodsoaked Champion both work in the same way. If you attack with Bloodthrone Vampire (or seer) you can sac the creature then pay 2 to put it back into play 1B as many times as you want. Shadow Alley gives your attacking creature intimidate so you don't have to worry about not being able to attack to get champion back.
You can probably also add a few more copies of Dark Prophecy to the deck too, maybe play a full set of 4 and only play 2 Shadow Alley Denziens since you only need 1 of them in play to get the intimidate.
Also with the 1 drop recurring creatures, If you have a Seer & Prophecy in play you get to pay 1B to scry 1, then draw a card which is super powerful!
Edit: Liliana Vess can definitly be a sideboard card for you if you want. Her second ability can help you get one of your sacrifice creatures, blood artist, one of your reoccurring creatures, or Dark Prophecy. She would be good vs. decks that are a bit slower so you can get to 5 mana.
But if this is just for casual, just for fun, or you don't care about top-8s at a PTQ, feel free to disregard. For that matter, I'm always seeing everybody else rave about the smash wins they got at their local FNM with marshmallow decks that wouldn't survive at my local shop, so what the heck, it might work anyway.
Couple suggestions:
Grave Pact is one mana cheaper than Dictate of Erebos, if you don't mind it not having flash.
Grim Haruspex makes Dark Prophecy obsolete, being a creature as well as the effect and not even costing the life to draw.
Disciple of Bolas might be better than tutoring, since this deck is built around sacrificing. Turn any creature into a Sphinx's Revelation! This was a house in Standard.
Quest for the Gravelord might be useful with all this dying going on.
BW B/W tokens
Casual:
RW Circle of Protection: Deck
UBW Esper Control
EDH:
GUW Roon's Realm of Value and Fun
BGU Value is a Zombie With a Fruit Hat (Tasigur Graveyard Shenanigans)
Peasant:
BlUEREd Jeskai Sage Delver Sans Delver
BW B/W tokens
Casual:
RW Circle of Protection: Deck
UBW Esper Control
EDH:
GUW Roon's Realm of Value and Fun
BGU Value is a Zombie With a Fruit Hat (Tasigur Graveyard Shenanigans)
Peasant:
BlUEREd Jeskai Sage Delver Sans Delver
Sad, dark, and depressing times!
What madness prompted this? Are they banning all card games too? Out of all the degenerate things kids can do in their free time, a card game is the thing they singled out?
I'm sorry, but that's the truth. Albeit somewhat stretched.
Here's an updated version of the deck:
4 Viscera Seer
4 Gravecrawler / Bloodsoaked Champion / Tenacious Dead
2 Hex Parasite
4 Bloodthrone Vampire
4 Blood Artist
4 Geralf's Messenger
2 Crypt Ghast
2 Shadow Alley Denizen
2 Grim Haruspex
2 Disciple of Bolas
4 Retribution of the Ancients
4 Tragic Slip
Lands
22 Swamp
1 Grave Pact
3 Quest for the Gravelord
1 Liliana Vess
4 Duress
6 Other Cards
I wanted to have a Grave Pact or Quest for the Gravelord in the main deck, but I didn't know what to cut.
BW B/W tokens
Casual:
RW Circle of Protection: Deck
UBW Esper Control
EDH:
GUW Roon's Realm of Value and Fun
BGU Value is a Zombie With a Fruit Hat (Tasigur Graveyard Shenanigans)
Peasant:
BlUEREd Jeskai Sage Delver Sans Delver
I also don't know how great Disciple of Bolas is going to be. He really shines when you have big creatures in the deck but right now your best thing to sac is 3 power. I'm very sure that every time you have him in hand (same with crypt ghast) you are just going to want to use the mana to remove counters from your guy or play more 1/2cmc creatures.
You can probably take out one or both of the Ghasts & Disciples and put in something like Victim of Night if you want more ways to kill creatures beyond your retribution.
I reluctantly agree about the disciple, too. My only other option besides sacrificing the messenger is sacrificing a pumped-up bloodthrone vampire, which I'd rather just attack with. I could keep it to use on the messenger, but its four mana more that I'd have to spend, while I could otherwise sacrifice him for free.
Both victim of night and doom blade seem good as extra removal. I already have a disciple, and I like the idea of the disciples and ghasts, so one of the two may stay for now, but that will probably change with more playtesting, which will definitely be easier after I get all the cards and can make a paper version of the deck.
BW B/W tokens
Casual:
RW Circle of Protection: Deck
UBW Esper Control
EDH:
GUW Roon's Realm of Value and Fun
BGU Value is a Zombie With a Fruit Hat (Tasigur Graveyard Shenanigans)
Peasant:
BlUEREd Jeskai Sage Delver Sans Delver
4 Geralf's Messenger
4 Viscera Seer
2 Butcher Ghoul
4 Hex Parasite
3 Gravecrawler
4 Blood Artist
4 Bloodthrone Vampire
4 Retribution of the Ancients
2 Blasting Station
4 Sign in Blood
2 Profane Command
23 Swamp
The creature numbers will require some adjustment, but so far this has been working. I added in Blasting Station as another great sac outlet. I like Profane Command as flexible removal and a way to get back a combo piece. I could see possibly replacing it with Immortal Servitude but it's not quite the same.
I chose Butcher Ghoul over some of the other options because with a Blood Artist and Retribution on the table, if Ghoul gets a +1/+1 counter, you can remove it to keep targeting itself, eliminating the need for an additional sac outlet.
I've only gotten in two games so far, but one of the wins was a Messenger/Parasite/Station loop with a Blood Artist out. Brutal.
Let me know what you think about some of the changes and thanks for the fun concept.
The Butcher Ghoul / Retribution of the Ancients combo looks fun, and could give butcher ghoul a spot in the deck.
How are the Hex Parasites working for you? It was one of the first cards I included in the original deck, but I also think it was one of the weaker ones. I suppose it could be nice as a beater with its +1/+0s, but it does seem kind of fragile.
BW B/W tokens
Casual:
RW Circle of Protection: Deck
UBW Esper Control
EDH:
GUW Roon's Realm of Value and Fun
BGU Value is a Zombie With a Fruit Hat (Tasigur Graveyard Shenanigans)
Peasant:
BlUEREd Jeskai Sage Delver Sans Delver
"There are no two words in the English language more harmful than 'good job'." -Terrance Fletcher, Whiplash (2014)