Never drop below 4 Raven's Crime, budget or not. It does way too much work, and it's never a dead card. It's just a huge workhorse that transforms useless topdecked lands into game winning draws. For budget, Necrogen does a pretty good impression of Liliana, and Infernal Tutor plays nicely with it. One nice thing is that Necrogen stacks with itself (and Lili), which is a trick Lili cannot pull off.
Allow me to lay out some Raven's Crime plays/situations to illustrate why it's great. These are not the kind of plays most will consider when first evaluating the card.
1. You've taken all your opponent's nonland cards from his hand, leaving him with two land in hand. You need to discard one more to turn on 2x Shrieking Affliction, so you cast Crime, forcing him to discard a land.
2. Your opening hand is 1x Inquisition, 1x Raven's Crime, 1x The Rack, 4x Swamp. You turn 1 Inquisition, turn 2 double Raven's Crime, turn 3 Raven's Crime + The Rack
3. You flood on land, and stockpile it every turn until you pull a Raven's Crime, then triple Raven's Crime your opponent, emptying their hand
4. Your opponent is in topdeck mode and you need to keep him there to keep your Rack and Affliction ticking. In hand you have 1x Dakmor Salvage; in the yard you have 1x Raven's Crime. You retrace the Crime every turn with the Dakmor for the win.
5. Your opponent is playing Merfolk, has a bunch of 2/1s and 2/2s in play; you have a Bridge in play, you've played a Swamp for the turn, and have 3x Swamp and 1x Raven's Crime in hand. You play Crime on them, turning on your Affliction, then retrace it twice, targeting yourself so they can no longer attack.
6. Your opponent has a Wild Nacatl in hand and nothing else; you're at 2 life. The card would be just enough to squeeze out a win. You have a Thoughtseize and Raven's Crime in hand.
7. Your opponent has 3x land and 1x Wurmcoil Engine in hand, the latter of which you desperately need to get rid of. You have 1x Inquisition, 3x Swamp, 1x Raven's Crime in hand.
8. You need to land a Necrogen Mists against UWR, but you know they have a Mana Leak and other more important spells in hand, and you only have 5x Swamp out. You Raven's Crime, retrace it twice until the Leak is gone, then play Mists.
9. Living End player is stuck on one land; you cast and retrace Crime multiple times; he cycles and draws once, and is forced to discard his other cyclers, and is still stuck on one land.
10. Opponent needs to play more land to cast his Ajani, but if he does he'll take 6 every turn from 2x Affliction. He holds the lands in hand, which you make him discard anyway by retracing Crime.
I'm sure there are many more I'm missing.
tl;dr Crime is a catch-all solution in tons of situations.
Game 1 I don't remember much except it went smoothly for me. Game 2 he sided in Luminarch Ascension (which I got rid of) and Celestial Purge. He ended up beating me with Celestial Colonnade after I used up my removal on his combo pieces. Game 3 I was dropping Torpor Orb, Shrieking Affliction, and The Rack everywhere and grinding him with Raven's Crime, Wrench Mind, etc. He cast Wear // Tear on my Rack and Affliction but Crime and Affliction was enough to seal the deal. Topdecked Bridge which served as insurance against Restoration Angel.
2-1
Round 2 vs Domain Zoo
Game 1 he mulls to 6 on the play. I empty his hand with Raven's Crime and grind him out with Necrogen Mists while draining him with The Rack and Shrieking Affliction. He gets 2x Kird Ape out but I kill one and lock the other down with Bridge.
Game 2 I don't sideboard anything. I discard his Geist of St. Traft; he gets in with Lightning Helix, Kird Ape, Loam Lion. I kill the Ape with Victim; he plays Tarmogoyf for lethal next turn. I have a bunch of Racks and Afflictions in play and an Inquisition in hand; if I grab something with it, it's lethal for me, but he just has a Ghor-Clan Rampager.
Game 3 I discard his Geist and Tribal Flames, leaving him with just a Kird Ape and Loam Lion on board and a hand full of land. I discard more, drop three Bridges, Necrogen Mists, and continue discarding. Eventually I drop 2x Affliction and win.
2-1
Round 3 vs UWR Twin
He starts with Deceiver Exarch and Splinter Twin in hand, which I discard. I drop The Rack and turn it on with more discard. Eventually he gets another Exarch out and topdecks Twin for the win.
Game 2 he has a handful of combo pieces and hate for Affliction and The Rack. It's a grindy game but I get rid of everything I need to and land my win cons. Pretty straightforward game.
Game 3 I Wrench Mind his Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and Lightning Bolt, drop win cons. He plays Wall of Omens, plays it on Twin out of desperation; next turn I Victim the first Omen. I drop Bridge and more win cons and wait it out until he's dead.
Round 4 vs BG Rock
I believe this was Reid Duke's PTBNG list with Phyrexian Obliterator. There's not much to say about it: I lose to an endless slew of Abrupt Decay and Maelstrom Pulse (you can see it here). Buried Ruin would really help here; pretty sure the budget versions suffers for the lack of it and Bitterblossom much more than Liliana.
I misplayed a ton because I was nervous (it being my first daily), but I believe it only cost me one game. The only sideboard card I think I used was Torpor Orb, so it's possible it needs adjusting.
Huge grats. You should rename the title: 8Rack - How to win a Daily on a budget
Regarding the primer:
1) Edit the OP, select tool > edit thread to change the title (if you want); Attach the "Primer" prefix to the thread
2) I really like the way you have your card descriptions. I may change my Primer to that style.
3) Ensnaring bridge skyrocketted, $25 a piece now and climbing. I have no idea if its because of 8Rack but its now a budget concern
I've been lurking the 8Rack thread for a few months now and testing on Cockatrice. Now I'm finally getting the deck built in paper. Luckily, I just bought 4 Ensnaring Bridge for $44 total. Just need 2 more Thoughtseize.
How do you feel about trying 2 or 3 copies of Buried Ruin in the budget list? The colorless hurts with the lack of Urborg, but it may be workable if it's not the full playset.
Also, why are you not running Dakmor Salvage? In about 10 games, I've never had to play it, so the coming into play tapped hasn't been an issue for me.
Huge grats. You should rename the title: 8Rack - How to win a Daily on a budget
Regarding the primer:
1) Edit the OP, select tool > edit thread to change the title (if you want); Attach the "Primer" prefix to the thread
2) I really like the way you have your card descriptions. I may change my Primer to that style.
3) Ensnaring bridge skyrocketted, $25 a piece now and climbing. I have no idea if its because of 8Rack but its now a budget concern
1) Done.
2) Thanks! It is really pleasant to read.
3) Yeah, at least it's only the paper version. Unfortunately it really can't be replaced, so for now the deck is $60 more expensive. If it remains high, I think when Waste Not comes out we could just replace it with that and bring the cost back down. I'll edit the primer to reflect the new price.
I've been lurking the 8Rack thread for a few months now and testing on Cockatrice. Now I'm finally getting the deck built in paper. Luckily, I just bought 4 Ensnaring Bridge for $44 total. Just need 2 more Thoughtseize.
How do you feel about trying 2 or 3 copies of Buried Ruin in the budget list? The colorless hurts with the lack of Urborg, but it may be workable if it's not the full playset.
Also, why are you not running Dakmor Salvage? In about 10 games, I've never had to play it, so the coming into play tapped hasn't been an issue for me.
I tested Ruin yesterday as 1, 2, and 3 of and like three games in a row it screwed me so I said to hell with this. I'm a conservative player anyway, so personally I recommend forgetting it, but you're free to try. I've been on and off Dakmor Salvage because it comes into play tapped; this deck has a very tight curve and it screws us occasionally. Yes, much of the time it's fine, but when it screws us, it usually does hard (typically it's that I need a third land to drop a Bridge or Mists immediately and it's the only land I have). But that's really a preference thing; I understand I'm being very conservative in not playing it or only running 1.
Mists is costing me games. The mandatory upkeep discard ruins what would be easy wins regularly. I'm thinking I'll replace one or two or maybe all with (sigh) Scepter of Fugue, or Delirium Skeins. Will be testing. Vaguely considering Nezumi Shortfang, also (I'm aware of its downsides).
I have built the full 8 Rack in paper and the budget version on Modo swapping Bitterblossoms with Funeral Charms and Lilianas with Necrogen Mists, and I feel that bitterblossom is an amazing card for this deck and will be picking them up online before I get my Lilis. Maybe the Funeral Charms are not the best replacement... IDK.
What are your guys's thoughts on Pack Rat as a swap for Bitterblossom? It makes dead draws live and can help keep our hand empty for Ensnaring Bridge.
Game 1 I don't remember much except it went smoothly for me. Game 2 he sided in Luminarch Ascension (which I got rid of) and Celestial Purge. He ended up beating me with Celestial Colonnade after I used up my removal on his combo pieces. Game 3 I was dropping Torpor Orb, Shrieking Affliction, and The Rack everywhere and grinding him with Raven's Crime, Wrench Mind, etc. He cast Wear // Tear on my Rack and Affliction but Crime and Affliction was enough to seal the deal. Topdecked Bridge which served as insurance against Restoration Angel.
2-1
Round 2 vs Domain Zoo
Game 1 he mulls to 6 on the play. I empty his hand with Raven's Crime and grind him out with Necrogen Mists while draining him with The Rack and Shrieking Affliction. He gets 2x Kird Ape out but I kill one and lock the other down with Bridge.
Game 2 I don't sideboard anything. I discard his Geist of St. Traft; he gets in with Lightning Helix, Kird Ape, Loam Lion. I kill the Ape with Victim; he plays Tarmogoyf for lethal next turn. I have a bunch of Racks and Afflictions in play and an Inquisition in hand; if I grab something with it, it's lethal for me, but he just has a Ghor-Clan Rampager.
Game 3 I discard his Geist and Tribal Flames, leaving him with just a Kird Ape and Loam Lion on board and a hand full of land. I discard more, drop three Bridges, Necrogen Mists, and continue discarding. Eventually I drop 2x Affliction and win.
2-1
Round 3 vs UWR Twin
He starts with Deceiver Exarch and Splinter Twin in hand, which I discard. I drop The Rack and turn it on with more discard. Eventually he gets another Exarch out and topdecks Twin for the win.
Game 2 he has a handful of combo pieces and hate for Affliction and The Rack. It's a grindy game but I get rid of everything I need to and land my win cons. Pretty straightforward game.
Game 3 I Wrench Mind his Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and Lightning Bolt, drop win cons. He plays Wall of Omens, plays it on Twin out of desperation; next turn I Victim the first Omen. I drop Bridge and more win cons and wait it out until he's dead.
Round 4 vs BG Rock
I believe this was Reid Duke's PTBNG list with Phyrexian Obliterator. There's not much to say about it: I lose to an endless slew of Abrupt Decay and Maelstrom Pulse (you can see it here). Buried Ruin would really help here; pretty sure the budget versions suffers for the lack of it and Bitterblossom much more than Liliana.
I misplayed a ton because I was nervous (it being my first daily), but I believe it only cost me one game. The only sideboard card I think I used was Torpor Orb, so it's possible it needs adjusting.
I have built the full 8 Rack in paper and the budget version on Modo swapping Bitterblossoms with Funeral Charms and Lilianas with Necrogen Mists, and I feel that bitterblossom is an amazing card for this deck and will be picking them up online before I get my Lilis. Maybe the Funeral Charms are not the best replacement... IDK.
What are your guys's thoughts on Pack Rat as a swap for Bitterblossom? It makes dead draws live and can help keep our hand empty for Ensnaring Bridge.
pepitosegrilla: That's LoamPox and deserves its own thread.
Mists is a really chance card. When it happens to come at the right time, it's great and everything is fine; when it comes at the wrong time (which happens regularly), it screws up your play sequences completely, so you either drop it and lose cards you don't want to, or play the cards when you don't want to and then drop it (at which point it's probably too late). I hate it.
Leaning toward 3x Skeins 1x Scepter right now (or possibly 3x Skeins 1x Mists). Symmetrical discard is very important.
I think skeins will be awesome when waste not is printed...
I was thinking about splashing red for goblin assault or even Mogis, God of Slaughter . Are Assault and Mogis too expensive? I figured he is pseudo removal, and they are both another way to finish off if the afflictions/racks aren't quite getting there... I was also wondering about lingering souls going in if I am using negrogen mists?
If you're budget, you need to stay monocolour. Bitterblossom is great but it's not so key to the deck that you can't just use more discard instead of it. Unfortunately there's no great replacement for it in monoblack (best thing seems to be Pack Rat).
I've been testing 4x Skeins quite a bit and like it a lot more than Mists overall, so that's going to be the go to card for me going forward. Primer has been updated to reflect this; Mists has been moved to the Card Options section. In the process of reworking the decklist and descriptions, also.
Edit: all done. Will probably run the new list in a daily soon and try to get some footage.
1. You've taken all your opponent's nonland cards from his hand, leaving him with two land in hand. You need to discard one more to turn on 2x Shrieking Affliction, so you cast Crime, forcing him to discard a land.
2. Your opening hand is 1x Inquisition, 1x Raven's Crime, 1x The Rack, 4x Swamp. You turn 1 Inquisition, turn 2 double Raven's Crime, turn 3 Raven's Crime + The Rack
3. You flood on land, and stockpile it every turn until you pull a Raven's Crime, then triple Raven's Crime your opponent, emptying their hand
4. Your opponent is in topdeck mode and you need to keep him there to keep your Rack and Affliction ticking. In hand you have 1x Dakmor Salvage; in the yard you have 1x Raven's Crime. You retrace the Crime every turn with the Dakmor for the win.
5. Your opponent is playing Merfolk, has a bunch of 2/1s and 2/2s in play; you have a Bridge in play, you've played a Swamp for the turn, and have 3x Swamp and 1x Raven's Crime in hand. You play Crime on them, turning on your Affliction, then retrace it twice, targeting yourself so they can no longer attack.
6. Your opponent has a Wild Nacatl in hand and nothing else; you're at 2 life. The card would be just enough to squeeze out a win. You have a Thoughtseize and Raven's Crime in hand.
7. Your opponent has 3x land and 1x Wurmcoil Engine in hand, the latter of which you desperately need to get rid of. You have 1x Inquisition, 3x Swamp, 1x Raven's Crime in hand.
8. You need to land a Necrogen Mists against UWR, but you know they have a Mana Leak and other more important spells in hand, and you only have 5x Swamp out. You Raven's Crime, retrace it twice until the Leak is gone, then play Mists.
9. Living End player is stuck on one land; you cast and retrace Crime multiple times; he cycles and draws once, and is forced to discard his other cyclers, and is still stuck on one land.
10. Opponent needs to play more land to cast his Ajani, but if he does he'll take 6 every turn from 2x Affliction. He holds the lands in hand, which you make him discard anyway by retracing Crime.
I'm sure there are many more I'm missing.
tl;dr Crime is a catch-all solution in tons of situations.
3x Victim of Night
4x Ensnaring Bridge
3x Funeral Charm
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Raven's Crime
4x Shrieking Affliction
4x Necrogen Mists
22x Swamp
4x The Rack
4x Wrench Mind
4x Torpor Orb
3x Drown in Sorrow
4x Delirium Skeins
Round 1 vs UWR Twin
Game 1 I don't remember much except it went smoothly for me. Game 2 he sided in Luminarch Ascension (which I got rid of) and Celestial Purge. He ended up beating me with Celestial Colonnade after I used up my removal on his combo pieces. Game 3 I was dropping Torpor Orb, Shrieking Affliction, and The Rack everywhere and grinding him with Raven's Crime, Wrench Mind, etc. He cast Wear // Tear on my Rack and Affliction but Crime and Affliction was enough to seal the deal. Topdecked Bridge which served as insurance against Restoration Angel.
2-1
Round 2 vs Domain Zoo
Game 1 he mulls to 6 on the play. I empty his hand with Raven's Crime and grind him out with Necrogen Mists while draining him with The Rack and Shrieking Affliction. He gets 2x Kird Ape out but I kill one and lock the other down with Bridge.
Game 2 I don't sideboard anything. I discard his Geist of St. Traft; he gets in with Lightning Helix, Kird Ape, Loam Lion. I kill the Ape with Victim; he plays Tarmogoyf for lethal next turn. I have a bunch of Racks and Afflictions in play and an Inquisition in hand; if I grab something with it, it's lethal for me, but he just has a Ghor-Clan Rampager.
Game 3 I discard his Geist and Tribal Flames, leaving him with just a Kird Ape and Loam Lion on board and a hand full of land. I discard more, drop three Bridges, Necrogen Mists, and continue discarding. Eventually I drop 2x Affliction and win.
2-1
Round 3 vs UWR Twin
He starts with Deceiver Exarch and Splinter Twin in hand, which I discard. I drop The Rack and turn it on with more discard. Eventually he gets another Exarch out and topdecks Twin for the win.
Game 2 he has a handful of combo pieces and hate for Affliction and The Rack. It's a grindy game but I get rid of everything I need to and land my win cons. Pretty straightforward game.
Game 3 I Wrench Mind his Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and Lightning Bolt, drop win cons. He plays Wall of Omens, plays it on Twin out of desperation; next turn I Victim the first Omen. I drop Bridge and more win cons and wait it out until he's dead.
Round 4 vs BG Rock
I believe this was Reid Duke's PTBNG list with Phyrexian Obliterator. There's not much to say about it: I lose to an endless slew of Abrupt Decay and Maelstrom Pulse (you can see it here). Buried Ruin would really help here; pretty sure the budget versions suffers for the lack of it and Bitterblossom much more than Liliana.
Regarding the primer:
1) Edit the OP, select tool > edit thread to change the title (if you want); Attach the "Primer" prefix to the thread
2) I really like the way you have your card descriptions. I may change my Primer to that style.
3) Ensnaring bridge skyrocketted, $25 a piece now and climbing. I have no idea if its because of 8Rack but its now a budget concern
How do you feel about trying 2 or 3 copies of Buried Ruin in the budget list? The colorless hurts with the lack of Urborg, but it may be workable if it's not the full playset.
Also, why are you not running Dakmor Salvage? In about 10 games, I've never had to play it, so the coming into play tapped hasn't been an issue for me.
1) Done.
2) Thanks! It is really pleasant to read.
3) Yeah, at least it's only the paper version. Unfortunately it really can't be replaced, so for now the deck is $60 more expensive. If it remains high, I think when Waste Not comes out we could just replace it with that and bring the cost back down. I'll edit the primer to reflect the new price.
I tested Ruin yesterday as 1, 2, and 3 of and like three games in a row it screwed me so I said to hell with this. I'm a conservative player anyway, so personally I recommend forgetting it, but you're free to try. I've been on and off Dakmor Salvage because it comes into play tapped; this deck has a very tight curve and it screws us occasionally. Yes, much of the time it's fine, but when it screws us, it usually does hard (typically it's that I need a third land to drop a Bridge or Mists immediately and it's the only land I have). But that's really a preference thing; I understand I'm being very conservative in not playing it or only running 1.
What are your guys's thoughts on Pack Rat as a swap for Bitterblossom? It makes dead draws live and can help keep our hand empty for Ensnaring Bridge.
Also Spawning Pool?
I think the side needs Surgical Extractions
Seems okay at worst and some succcessful lists have run it. Test it and report back.
Spawning Pool seems okay but I doubt it's worth it.
The whole decklist and primer needs an update. I'll get on it.
Mists is a really chance card. When it happens to come at the right time, it's great and everything is fine; when it comes at the wrong time (which happens regularly), it screws up your play sequences completely, so you either drop it and lose cards you don't want to, or play the cards when you don't want to and then drop it (at which point it's probably too late). I hate it.
Leaning toward 3x Skeins 1x Scepter right now (or possibly 3x Skeins 1x Mists). Symmetrical discard is very important.
I was thinking about splashing red for goblin assault or even Mogis, God of Slaughter . Are Assault and Mogis too expensive? I figured he is pseudo removal, and they are both another way to finish off if the afflictions/racks aren't quite getting there... I was also wondering about lingering souls going in if I am using negrogen mists?
Edit: all done. Will probably run the new list in a daily soon and try to get some footage.
Modern
B 8rack B
G Aggro Elves G
U W Ad Nauseam BR
G Gr Tron R
U U Tron U
B Monoblack Vampires B
BGR Jund BGR
Modern
B 8rack B
G Aggro Elves G
U W Ad Nauseam BR
G Gr Tron R
U U Tron U
B Monoblack Vampires B
BGR Jund BGR
Modern
B 8rack B
G Aggro Elves G
U W Ad Nauseam BR
G Gr Tron R
U U Tron U
B Monoblack Vampires B
BGR Jund BGR